Quarterback Article

[Sportsbabe]

I think this is new:

SILVER Star Digest
Let the Controversy Begin
By Derrick Crosby

Date: Jul 9, 2004


Quincy Carter will arrive at training camp in Oxnard, California in about 3 weeks as the first team quarterback for the Dallas Cowboys, but he could very well lose his starting job before the start of the regular season.
It seems like every year Cowboys fans find themselves enamored with the one subject that ignites a passion in us all- Quincy Carter.

What will it take for him to hold off Vinny Testeverde and Drew Henson through the course of the 2004 season? 30 touchdown passes and a small army if you really know the game of football.

You see, the Cowboys have never been content with their quarterback situation. At least, not since Quincy Carter arrived 3 years ago out of the University of Georgia.

And now, one year removed from being the starting signal caller for all 17 games, Carter will once again try to prove his worth to the higher ups of the Cowboys franchise.

The only problem this year is that he's finally got some competition.

Some serious competition.

Chad Hutchinson was originally signed two years ago to push Carter's development, and eventually take his place, but obviously, that never quite worked out.

After three years of playing professional baseball, he was horribly erratic in pocket. And now, after a failed attempt at improving his game in NFL Europe, his career for the Cowboys appears to be done.

And even when consider that Hutchinson is essentially out of the picture, and Carter's progress of a year ago, the Cowboys have done little to keep things "status-quo" this offseason behind center.


Love him or hate him, Quincy Carter will have his work cut out for him if wants to keep his starting job this year.
Back in early March, the organization pulled off a trade to bring former Michigan star Drew Henson to Valley Ranch. Two months later, veteran quarterback Vinny Testaverde was brought to Dallas to help Henson's development, not to mention to provide relief for Carter should he need it during the course of the 2004 season.

With three legitimate quarterbacks on the roster heading into training camp, it begs the question, who will be the man behind center for the Dallas Cowboys in 2004?

If you said, "Quincy Carter," you may want to hold that thought.

At least for now.

Quincy Carter will arrive at training camp in Oxnard, California in about 3 weeks as the first team quarterback, but he could very well lose his starting job before the start of the regular season.

How?

That's easy. He now has two quarterbacks on the roster that are clearly more talented he is, and one of those guys already has a few years of experience in Bill Parcells' system.

Carter had his moments last year, and even earned the praise of both Parcells and Jerry Jones during various points of the season. But this year, the Cowboys won't be able to sneak up on other teams around the league. They don't have a starting running back with NFL experience (at least not yet), and more times than not, the difference between a win and a loss could easily come down to the passing game.

Ask yourself, do you honestly feel like Quincy Carter is the man that will take the Dallas Cowboys to the next level? Is Quincy Carter a quarterback that could deliver 20-25 touchdown passes and only throw 10-12 interceptions during a 16-game regular season?

Ask most of the so-called "experts" around the league and they'll give you resounding "no."

Ask Jerry Jones and Bill Parcells and see what they say. Actually, you don't have to do that. Just look at their actions this offseason.

The acquisition of two talented quarterbacks at both ends of the age spectrum demonstrates exactly the amount of confidence the Cowboys' organization has in Quincy Carter.

Not much.

And once training camp gets underway next month, don't be surprised to see that lack of confidence finally translate over the football field.

[BrAinPaiNt]

You see, the Cowboys have never been content with their quarterback situation. At least, not since Quincy Carter arrived 3 years ago out of the University of Georgia.

Although QC was brought in at the time...I think it is fair to say that the Cowboys have not been content with their QB situation since Aikman was no longer the QB.

[Bluefin]

What will it take for him to hold off Vinny Testeverde and Drew Henson through the course of the 2004 season? 30 touchdown passes and a small army if you really know the game of football.
Love that Crosby, he was predicting Hutchinson would make mince meat out of Carter last year.

30 touchdowns, eh?

So only Brett Favre would've been able to withstand Testaverde and Henson last year as he was the only quarterback in the entire league to throw 30 or more touchdowns.

I know the game of football and carter doesn't need 30 touchdowns to retain his job.

He does need a large army, the five offensive linemen in front of him, to properly handle his job.

Carter's main task is to eliminate the impulse plays from his reportoire that so often led to mishaps on the field.

If Q can do that, something Parcells claimed all of his previous signal callers have had to learn, he'll remain on the field for Dallas this season.

Love that Crosby.

[NOVA 22]

wow - as neither a carter supporter or hater, that's about as negative article i've seen. i think the argument that parcells brought in both a younger and older guy is the writing on the wall for QC just doesn't hold water. they're still case by case examples. vinny is a good mentor/backup, and henson was obtained relatively cheaply for the potential he has. in bith cases, we'd have been stupid not to grab these guys

[Nightshade]

I think this is new:

SILVER Star Digest
Let the Controversy Begin
By Derrick Crosby

Date: Jul 9, 2004



That's easy. He now has two quarterbacks on the roster that are clearly more talented he is,


The DEFINITION of media bias.

Again, move along, nothing to see here.

[Maikeru-sama]

Wheeeew. Talk about a SCATHING article.

Anybody got Quincy Cater's email address :).

- Mike G.

[Doomsday101]

Let them compete and may the best man win. If Carter shows himself as the best then fine we go into the season with him at the helm and if he fails then we have a QB in Vinny with a lot experiance and a guy who has shown that he is very capiable of running Bill Parcells offense and has had very good success working with Keyshawn,Anderson and Ward. I personally think QC has his work cut out for him and it is not a given that Carter will prove himself as the best, but I'm more than willing to sit back and watch this competion play itself out. To me this is not about Quincy Carter it is all about the Dallas Cowboys.

[Chief]

The DEFINITION of media bias.



I don't think he's really a member of the media. Isn't he just a fan that writes for a website?

[Nightshade]

I don't think he's really a member of the media. Isn't he just a fan that writes for a website?

Maybe so, but he must be a fan of the foreskins or beagles. No fan of the Cowboys would hope and believe so dearly that our current starting QB is clearly going to lose his job to a 40 year old or a kid who hasn't played in 3 years.

[Doomsday101]

Maybe so, but he must be a fan of the foreskins or beagles. No fan of the Cowboys would hope and believe so dearly that our current starting QB is clearly going to lose his job to a 40 year old or a kid who hasn't played in 3 years.

That 40 year old man would not be here if Parcells did not think he could play, Bill does not run a charity program and will give him the oppertunity that Vinny is looking for. If Carter outplays him then great but if not then Vinny is more than capiable of running this team

[Nightshade]

Let them compete and may the best man win.

I agree with you.
But I admit I can't help but hope that Carter comes out and blows these two guys out of the water. I hope he has a stellar regular season and becomes a consistent reliable QB who can make the occasional play all by himself because of better confidence in himself and his teamates.

And after last year and this offseason's improvements with the team I fully believe he has the capability to be this kind of QB.

I also believe that Henson will eventually eclipse Carter. But I'm hoping that Carter's replacement will be a difficult decision for our coach two or three years down the road. If that decision is made this training camp, you can kiss this season goodbye.

And No way am I ready to do that.

[Doomsday101]

I agree with you.
But I admit I can't help but hope that Carter comes out and blows these two guys out of the water. I hope he has a stellar regular season and becomes a consistent reliable QB who can make the occasional play all by himself because of better confidence in himself and his teamates.

And after last year and this offseason's improvements with the team I fully believe he has the capability to be this kind of QB.

I also believe that Henson will eventually eclipse Carter. But I'm hoping that Carter's replacement will be a difficult decision for our coach two or three years down the road. If that decision is made this training camp, you can kiss this season goodbye.

And No way am I ready to do that.

I have no problem with that and should Carter show drastic improvement then I will be more than happy to give him my full support and confidence but right now sorry I have little confidence in him. After watching the last 3 season and hoping and praying that has now come to an end I now demand that he shows the improvement and if he can't then yes I will continue to call for his job. I'm a Cowboys fan so to me this is not a personal issue with Carter it is an issue of wanting this team to succeed and to get back to where we belong which is on top and that is something I do not think Carter can do.

[crazylegs]

The DEFINITION of media bias.

Again, move along, nothing to see here.

More in the order of Fan Ignorance.

Again, move along, nothing to see here.

[Nightshade]

That 40 year old man would not be here if Parcells did not think he could play, Bill does not run a charity program and will give him the oppertunity that Vinny is looking for.

Hey man,
When Parcells brought in Vinny, every intelligent football fan knew Vinny could still play. I hope Vinny comes in and lights it up in TC. The reason I brought up his age is that no matter how good he plays, he'll never be considered the future in Dallas. So if Carter performs at least as well as Vinny, he'll start.

In his second season under Parcells, I think Carter will be more consistent.

[Nightshade]

After watching the last 3 season and hoping and praying that has now come to an end I now demand that he shows the improvement and if he can't then yes I will continue to call for his job. I'm a Cowboys fan so to me this is not a personal issue with Carter it is an issue of wanting this team to succeed and to get back to where we belong which is on top and that is something I do not think Carter can do.

Seems like we're going to have no choice but to agree on this one.

If Carter throws as many INT's as TD's again this year, or gives up the big play to lose the game due to his special brand of "improvising", I'll be leading the line to insert our new starting QB.

I'm just SOOOOOoooooo glad we have options behind Carter this year. :)

[jimmy40]

I agree with you.
But I admit I can't help but hope that Carter comes out and blows these two guys out of the water. I hope he has a stellar regular season and becomes a consistent reliable QB who can make the occasional play all by himself because of better confidence in himself and his teamates.

And after last year and this offseason's improvements with the team I fully believe he has the capability to be this kind of QB.

I also believe that Henson will eventually eclipse Carter. But I'm hoping that Carter's replacement will be a difficult decision for our coach two or three years down the road. If that decision is made this training camp, you can kiss this season goodbye.

And No way am I ready to do that.If you think Henson will eventually eclipse Crater then wouldn't you like to see Henson blow the other two out of the water right now?

[Sportsbabe]

Love that Crosby, he was predicting Hutchinson would make mince meat out of Carter last year. Love that Crosby.

Not only Crosby but a lot of these "experts". I love their objectivity :rolleyes: . If Quincy can't hold off these to QB saviors then he deserves to sit down and let the best man take us to glory :rolleyes: . But this "Carter is not a good QB" stuff is getting sooo old. Another poster pointed out that these reporters have to get creative because BP doesn't give them the access that they desire. So instead of being objective they repeat the same stuff or make up something. Anything for a story.

[Nightshade]

If you think Henson will eventually eclipse Crater then wouldn't you like to see Henson blow the other two out of the water right now?

I just can't see it happening after a three year Baseball sabatical. Teams try to sit QB's for at least a year even when they are coming out of playing 3 or 4 years in college. Pennington, Palmer and even Leftwich would have sat out the year if it hadn'been for Brunell's injury.

I think Henson's got the talent, and the physical skills, but I think he's going to have to have a year or two to learn the pro game, get used to the speed of it and get back into the grove of feeling the pressure and making the right decisions.

With the guys we have at QB now, I just see No reason to rush Henson.

[Doomsday101]

Hey man,
When Parcells brought in Vinny, every intelligent football fan knew Vinny could still play. I hope Vinny comes in and lights it up in TC. The reason I brought up his age is that no matter how good he plays, he'll never be considered the future in Dallas. So if Carter performs at least as well as Vinny, he'll start.

In his second season under Parcells, I think Carter will be more consistent.

I agree Vinny is not the future but he very well could be the go between until Henson is ready to step in. Having said that I don't know how Henson will do but I do know he comes into camp with the most raw talent of any QB we have had in a while. He has the size, he has a gun for an arm, good mobility and according to those who have coached him and played with him he has great leadership qualities. How he fairs in the NFL is anyone’s guess. We have all seen guys who have similar qualities as Henson who have flat out failed in the NFL but I'm still encouraged that Henson very well could turn into the QB that this team desperately needs

[Sportsbabe]

But I admit I can't help but hope that Carter comes out and blows these two guys out of the water.

Ditto. Only because sooo many are rooting against him. Of course I want a QB that can lead the team to TD's and comebacks and all the sexy stuff we want our QB's to do. But I can't help but get caught up in the drama. It's a win/win situation from my point of view.

20 more days!!

[jimmy40]

I just can't see it happening after a three year Baseball sabatical. Teams try to sit QB's for at least a year even when they are coming out of playing 3 or 4 years in college. Pennington, Palmer and even Leftwich would have sat out the year if it hadn'been for Brunell's injury.

I think Henson's got the talent, and the physical skills, but I think he's going to have to have a year or two to learn the pro game, get used to the speed of it and get back into the grove of feeling the pressure and making the right decisions.

With the guys we have at QB now, I just see No reason to rush Henson.
So if Henson blows the other two out in training camp, you would still want Carter as the starter?

[Doomsday101]

So if Henson blows the other two out in training camp, you would still want Carter as the starter?

I would not discount Henson but I will say it would be aginst the odds if he were to step right in and become the starter. But if by some chance Henson out perfomed all of our QB then yes I would want him to start because he would have shown himself to be the best. I really don't think that is going to be the case this season but I am excited about seeing him this pre-season.

[Nightshade]

So if Henson blows the other two out in training camp, you would still want Carter as the starter?

If Henson comes in and makes Vinny Testaverde look like a pathetic rookie, has total command of the offense and is the born leader of the team. If he comes in and is John Elway and it's obvious we're going to the Superbowl like Marino did in his rookie year. Hell, sure start the guy.

But don't call me nasty names like bastid or um Terrell Owens or something if I think that this scenario is a tad unlikely. ;)

[Doomsday101]

If Henson comes in and makes Vinny Testaverde look like a pathetic rookie, has total command of the offense and is the born leader of the team. If he comes in and is John Elway and it's obvious we're going to the Superbowl like Marino did in his rookie year. Hell, sure start the guy.

But don't call me nasty names like bastid or um Terrell Owens or something if I think that this scenario is a tad unlikely. ;)

Ok Mr. Owens. LOL (just joking with you) I agree it is high unlikely

[NumOneQB]

Article is ridiculously biased.
This Crosby guy must be Hutchinson's brother or something. It's a shame garbage like this is printed.


Also, did anyone watch the Jets play lat year???? That team's season went into the toilet because of Pennington's injury and Vinny's inability to produce at the Qb position. They were forced to put the offense on the back of an aged Curtis Martin and we all know how well that went. Vinny is good QB for his age, but as a Cowboy fan we must hope that Carter leaves these guys in the dust come training camp because Vinny is not the same player he was several years ago under Parcells. Vinny is a backup Qb in this league, nothing more.

[HTownCowboysFan]

I agree with you.
But I admit I can't help but hope that Carter comes out and blows these two guys out of the water. I hope he has a stellar regular season and becomes a consistent reliable QB who can make the occasional play all by himself because of better confidence in himself and his teamates.

And after last year and this offseason's improvements with the team I fully believe he has the capability to be this kind of QB.

I also believe that Henson will eventually eclipse Carter. But I'm hoping that Carter's replacement will be a difficult decision for our coach two or three years down the road. If that decision is made this training camp, you can kiss this season goodbye.

And No way am I ready to do that.

I agree totally ^.

I have no problem with QC, the signing of Henson, and bringing Vinnie T. on board. But the best thing for the 2004 Dallas Cowboys is Quincy kicking some major @ss at QB.

It is beyond me that some fans have so much hate for Carter (why?), that they pull against him.

[nathanlt]

That 40 year old man would not be here if Parcells did not think he could play, Bill does not run a charity program and will give him the oppertunity that Vinny is looking for. If Carter outplays him then great but if not then Vinny is more than capiable of running this team

Hey, don't be so quick to define all Cowboy fans. Carter should be given a shot to turn his career around. I DON'T think he has the talent to be a premier quarterback, I think Henson eventually will. I don't want Carter to win the QB job, because he's never going to be a great QB like Staubach or Aikman. Henson has the talent to be the next in that line, and I want the next quarterback to be of the talent level of Stabauch/Aikman, and soon. Carter is not that guy. There is legitimate doubt, even among Carter fans, I would guess, that Carter could ever reach that level.

As for THIS season, there's a strong liklihood that Henson would not be ready to play at a high level as a starter, however, there's a possibility that he could step in and play the way Bulger stepped in for Warner, or the way both Eagles backup Q.B.'s played for McNabb when he went down. Other teams do have talented QB's that step in and play at a high level from the bench. Don't automatically rule it out.

[Nors]

"That's easy. He now has two quarterbacks on the roster that are clearly more talented he is, and one of those guys already has a few years of experience in Bill Parcells' system."

Poorly written, Biased and on last statement dead wrong.

I laugh at all those that constantly write Quincy off. I have sheckles on Quincy to be our starter again this year. And for this team to be markedly better.

[DallasEast]

I love these kind of speculations

Off the subject personal note: I was typing this post while watching the Packers/Raiders 1999 game replay on NFL Network. Favre hurt his hand that day. It prompted one of the game announcers to say that Favre has a HIGH tolerance for pain. In my opinion, ANYBODY has a high tolerance for pain when they're an admitted Vicodin addict, but that's just me. Back to my reply...

Crosby: "Is Quincy Carter a quarterback that could deliver 20-25 touchdown passes and only throw 10-12 interceptions during a 16-game regular season?"

IMO? Hell, no. Now comes a BETTER question based upon Mr. Crosby's own assumption.

What quarterback in the entire NFL CAN guarantee to throw 20+ touchdowns AND 12-or-less interceptions during a 16-game regular season? Let's look at what quarterbacks could have fit those same parameters during the last quarter century...

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Peyton Manning 2003 Colts 29 10
Trent Green 2003 Chiefs 24 12
Aaron Brooks 2003 Saints 24 8
Tom Brady 2003 Patriots 23 12
Final Team Results Summary: Colts/AFC runnerup, Chiefs/AFC divisional loser, Saints/NFC South runnerup, Patriots/Super Bowl winner

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Rich Gannon 2002 Raiders 26 10
Jeff Garcia 2002 49ers 21 10
Final Team Results Summary: Raiders/Super Bowl runnerup, 49ers/NFC divisional loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Donovan McNabb 2001 Eagles 25 12
Rich Gannon 2001 Raiders 27 9
Jeff Garcia 2001 49ers 32 12
Final Team Results Summary: Eagles/NFC runnerup, Raiders/AFC divisional loser [they were robbed], 49ers/NFC wild card loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Rich Gannon 2000 Raiders 28 11
Jeff Garcia 2000 49ers 31 10
Final Team Results Summary: Raiders/AFC runnerup, 49ers/NFC West 4th-place finisher

1999. Zero, but notable quarterbacks who threw 20+ touchdowns & 19-or-less interceptions--

PLAYER TEAM TD INT
Steve Beuerlein Panthers 36 15 Did not make playoffs
Peyton Manning Colts 26 15 AFC divisional loser
Elvis Grbac Chiefs 22 15 Did not make playoffs
Rich Gannon Raiders 24 14 Did not make playoffs
Kurt Warner Rams 41 13 Super Bowl winner
Brad Johnson Redskins 24 13 NFC divisional loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Randall Cunningham 1998 Vikings 34 10
Final Team Results Summary: NFC runnerup

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
John Elway 1997 Broncos 27 11
Jeff George 1997 Raiders 29 9
Trent Dilfer 1997 Buccaneers 21 11
Final Team Results Summary: Broncos/Super Bowl winner, Raiders/AFC West 4th-place finisher, Buccaneers/NFC divisional loser

1996. Nada, but notable quarterbacks who threw 20+ touchdowns & 19-or-less interceptions--

PLAYER TEAM TD INT
Jeff Blake Bengals 24 14 Did not make playoffs
Brett Favre Packers 39 13 Super Bowl winner
Drew Bledsoe Patriots 27 15 Super Bowl runnerup
Vinny Testaverde Ravens 33 19 Did not make playoffs


PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Jeff George 1995 Falcons 24 11
Erik Kramer 1995 Bears 29 10
Scott Mitchell 1995 Lions 32 12
Steve Bono 1995 Chiefs 21 10
Final Team Results Summary: Falcons/NFC wild card loser, Bears/NFC Central 3rd-place finisher, Lions/NFC wild card loser, Chiefs/AFC divisional loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Steve Young 1994 49ers 35 10
Final Team Results Summary: 49ers/Super Bowl winner

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
John Elway 1993 Broncos 25 10
Final Team Results Summary: Broncos/AFC wild card loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Steve Young 1992 49ers 25 7
Final Team Results Summary: 49ers/NFC runnerup

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Mark Rypien 1991 Redskins 28 11
Final Team Results Summary: Redskins/Super Bowl winner

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Steve Deberg 1990 Chiefs 23 4
Dan Marino 1990 Dolphins 21 11
Final Team Results Summary: Chiefs/AFC wild card loser, Dolphins/AFC divisional loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Boomer Esiason 1989 Bengals 28 11
Final Team Results Summary: Bengals/AFC Central last place finisher

1988. Zlitch, but notable quarterbacks who threw 20+ touchdowns & 19-or-less interceptions--

PLAYER TEAM TD INT
Boomer Esiason Bengals 28 14 Super Bowl runnerup
Bobby Hebert Saints 20 15 Did not make playoffs
Randall Cunningham Eagles 24 16 NFC divisional loser
Jim Everett Rams 31 18 NFC wild card loser

1987. Strike year.

1986...

PLAYER TEAM TD INT
Jim Kelly Bills 22 17 Did not make playoffs
Boomer Esiason Bengals 24 17 Did not make playoffs
Dan Marino Dolphins 44 23 Did not make playoffs
Phil Simms Giants 21 22 Wonder what Parcells expected?
Jay Schroeder Redskins 22 22 NFC runnerup

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Ken O'Brien 1985 Jets 25 8
Final Team Results Summary: Jets/AFC wild card loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Tony Eason 1984 Patriots 23 8
Joe Montana 1984 49ers 28 10
Final Team Results Summary: Patriots/AFC East runnerup, 49ers/Super Bowl winner

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Joe Montana 1983 49ers 26 12
Joe Theismann 1983 Redskins 29 11
Final Team Results Summary: 49ers/NFC runnerups, Redskins/Super Bowl runnerup

1982. Strike year.

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Ken Anderson 1981 Bengals 29 10
Final Team Results Summary: Super Bowl runnerup

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Ron Jaworski 1980 Eagles 27 12
Final Team Results Summary: Super Bowl runnerup

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Roger Staubach 1979 Cowboys 27 11
Final Team Results Summary: Cowboys/NFC divisional loser ["Paging Mr. Crosby... paging Mr. Crosby..."]

Here's a a breakdown of the quarterbacks' teams who actually fit within Mr. Crosby's expectation--

Finish %
Divisional loser 21%
Did not make playoffs 18%
Wild card loser 18%
Conference Runnerup 18%
Super Bowl winner 15%
Super Bowl runnerup 12%

Insane. Mr. Crosby's rules include a few Super Bowl quarterbacks, but not all. Wouldn't it be simpler to expect a successful quarterback in a Parcells-style offense to--

1. Throw more TDs than INTs
2. Stay within the offensive scheme



In other words, a ball-control quarterback. Plain and simple. Parcells hopes that he has one on his roster now, but only the season will decide if he actually has one. IMO, that's within Parcells expectations. On the other hand, Mr. Crosby's expectations are a bit more extreme. The team could have a better season than last year's and the starting quarterback still doesn't have to put up those types of numbers. And he doesn't have to.

[Jersey]

Its not about stats. Marino has all of them and naked fingers to show for it. As BP said, Drive The Bus! Not just one day, in perfect conditions. But for a whole season, including poor weather. How do you handle it when the kids are jumpin around, leaving their seats. Do you take control, or run a light and hit a cement truck? Sorry for the cliches, but dang, its that simple.

[BHendri5]

together this season and we continue to win and get stronger and stronger, it is great, for the Cowboys. IF he doesn't then we move on to the next young project place him at the begining of the tunnel (per Parcells) and see if he can make it thru the tunnel, IF he does great, we will be set back another 1, 2 maybe 3yrs but it would be well worth it I would venture to say once who ever the QB is that makes it thru the tunnel.
Now if the that youngster do not make it thru then we will be swimming along making a little of noise until we get another youngster groomed and ready to take his turn.

I support Carter strongly, and I have since day one, I also thought that it was wrong to start him as a rookie. I knew it was going to take time, good coaching, mentoring, along with maturity. So a year standing on the sideline would have been very good for Carter his rookie year, (I thought they should have went with Banks or Wright) and let Carter battle with them, or one of them his 2nd season, but since they chose to do the opposite then, they needed to stick with him thru the growing pains ups and downs, INTs, etc., until everything clicked and came together for him.

I always have stated that his 4th season will tell the tale, it his fast approaching, has it all come together for him now, we will see. Like I said it will be great, if it has not then we move to the next project and place him at the begining of the tunnel and say can you make it thru to the otherside, whcih would be Henson he is said to have all the tools, arm, intelligence, now the mobility nah, I'm not buying that at all, seeing is believing, they said that about hutch.

I'm a Dallas Cowboy first .

[Sportsbabe]

CowboynIraq: I, for one, appreciate your support of our QB. I haven't been on this forum long and would like to announce where I stand:

I am rooting for "The Triggerman" because so many are against him. I believe, like everyone else, that he desperately needs to work on his accuracy & decision making. Unlike most of the anti-Q's, I believe he can improve in these areas. But, he must have the confidence and let the chips fall where they may. He can't go into training camp scared to make a mistake for fear of losing his job. In this case, if he loses his job it will be done in a fair manner and because someone else did better. He will have been given every opportunity to compete. Heck, he has a whole year head start on everybody else.

The one thing that I just absolutely detest is the questioning of his intelligence. This alone makes me hold a biased opinion on why I want him as our QB. It reeks of 1970s (and still current in some circles) stereotype.

In Bill We Trust

[BHendri5]

CowboynIraq: I, for one, appreciate your support of our QB. I haven't been on this forum long and would like to announce where I stand:

I am rooting for "The Triggerman" because so many are against him. I believe, like everyone else, that he desperately needs to work on his accuracy & decision making. Unlike most of the anti-Q's, I believe he can improve in these areas. But, he must have the confidence and let the chips fall where they may. He can't go into training camp scared to make a mistake for fear of losing his job. In this case, if he loses his job it will be done in a fair manner and because someone else did better. He will have been given every opportunity to compete. Heck, he has a whole year head start on everybody else.

The one thing that I just absolutely detest is the questioning of his intelligence. This alone makes me hold a biased opinion on why I want him as our QB. It reeks of 1970s (and still current in some circles) stereotype.

In Bill We Trust


YES!!!! I'm with you 200%, and it IRKS the HECK out of me. Yes, it reeks.

[LaTunaNostra]

CowboynIraq: I, for one, appreciate your support of our QB. I haven't been on this forum long and would like to announce where I stand:

I am rooting for "The Triggerman" because so many are against him. I believe, like everyone else, that he desperately needs to work on his accuracy & decision making. Unlike most of the anti-Q's, I believe he can improve in these areas. But, he must have the confidence and let the chips fall where they may. He can't go into training camp scared to make a mistake for fear of losing his job. In this case, if he loses his job it will be done in a fair manner and because someone else did better. He will have been given every opportunity to compete. Heck, he has a whole year head start on everybody else.

The one thing that I just absolutely detest is the questioning of his intelligence. This alone makes me hold a biased opinion on why I want him as our QB. It reeks of 1970s (and still current in some circles) stereotype.

In Bill We Trust


A woman after my own heart.

Ditto, Mrs. Irvin, ditto! ;)

[big dog cowboy]

JC the season can't start soon enough.

[jimmy40]

The one thing that I just absolutely detest is the questioning of his intelligence. This alone makes me hold a biased opinion on why I want him as our QB. It reeks of 1970s (and still current in some circles) stereotype.

In Bill We Trust[/QUOTE] So if QC was white, we could question his intelligence?

[MichaelWinicki]

The one thing that I just absolutely detest is the questioning of his intelligence. This alone makes me hold a biased opinion on why I want him as our QB. It reeks of 1970s (and still current in some circles) stereotype.

In Bill We Trust So if QC was white, we could question his intelligence?[/QUOTE]


I know I'm not questioning his intelligence...

[Cheap Shot Artist]

The one thing that I just absolutely detest is the questioning of his intelligence. This alone makes me hold a biased opinion on why I want him as our QB. It reeks of 1970s (and still current in some circles) stereotype.

Yes thats it!! thats it!! just throw up the race card amd watch the multitudes blindly follow a baseless charge!!!

I dont see too many people questioning the intelligence of

McNair
McNabb
Culpepper
Vick
Leftwich

But some Cowboys fans just HAVE to sink to the race card when their beloved is a target of criticism..

Troy Aikman scored a 29 on his Wonderlich...QC scored a 30

Therefore QC, on a non football test, is smarter than Troy..

Dare to compare on the fit wit?

Wait a minute..thats not a racist comparison, is it?

Oh the miserable, hypocritical lives some of you lead

[SALADIN]

The one thing that I just absolutely detest is the questioning of his intelligence. This alone makes me hold a biased opinion on why I want him as our QB. It reeks of 1970s (and still current in some circles) stereotype.

In Bill We Trust So if QC was white, we could question his intelligence?[/QUOTE]

So you actually think that some people don't like Quincy and question his intelligence because he's black?

Dude, this is 2004 racism doesn’t exist anymore. How dare you!

http://www.imao.us/img/race_card.gif

[BHendri5]

The one thing that I just absolutely detest is the questioning of his intelligence. This alone makes me hold a biased opinion on why I want him as our QB. It reeks of 1970s (and still current in some circles) stereotype.

I dont see too many people questioning the intelligence of

McNair
McNabb
Culpepper
Vick
Leftwich

But some Cowboys fans just HAVE to sink to the race card when their beloved is a target of criticism..

Troy Aikman scored a 29 on his Wonderlich...QC scored a 30

Therefore QC, on a non football test, is smarter than Troy..

Dare to compare on the fit wit?

Wait a minute..thats not a racist comparison, is it?

Oh the miserable, hypocritical lives some of you lead


Sure they do, you just do not hear it unless you are a fan of that team. Culpepper ,Vick, and McNabb definitely, all the time.

[LaTunaNostra]

So if QC was white, we could question his intelligence?

If QC were white, chances are his brain farts would be chalked up to speed of the game issues, to developmental curve, youth and inexperience, getting familiar with defenses, not yet automaticized read and react time, or to any of the host of semantic options open to analyzing white QBs.

But since he's NOT white, it's a "mental capacity" issue. I've also noticed those who debate these topics (which are far beyond the scope of their expertise), are never those who read like folks qualified for Rhodes Scholarships themselves.

We've had this discussion here before.

The one about how Tim Couch's intelligence didn't get questioned, but Mike Vick's does. How Akili Smith was dumb, but Cade McNown just couldn't get it done. How Kordell is too dense to learn a playbook, but Ryan Leaf, a true dumbarse, had "maturity issues".

I've seen virtually every black QB's intelligence questioned on sportsboards in the five years I've used them, including Daunte Culpepper's by a Jets fan who lived in central Florida and wagered everyone Daunte was too stupid to succeed. I see Vick's gray matter debated on a weekly basis. Funny how his HC seems to think he's bright enough to master a wco.

When Drew Bledsoe strikes out with both Ernie Zampese's and Kevin Gilbride's intricate offenses, they weren't "right for him. When Kordell Stewart does so, it's congenital.

Pre internet days, I heard the same discussion on Warren Moon, Doug Williams, and James Harris. I have read the same debate also applied to Marlon Briscoe.
Not smart enough "to lead".

When OCs took advantage of the mobility of a Rich Gannon or way back when, a Fran Tarkenton, that was a smart move. When Randall Cunningham used his legs, it was because he didn't have enough brains to use.

When Bill Parcells ran the same simplified offense for vet QB Vinnie Testaverde in NY, it was about "cutting down on interceptions". For the much younger Quincy Carter, it is "reading half the field ".

I have a special regard for Mr. Terry Bradshaw.

He was, to my knowledge, the only well known white QB who bore the stigma (too dumb to be an NFL QB) every black QB bears, that is, those who were lucky enough not to get shunted to receiver or tail in college, like Tony Dungy and so many others were.

BTW, not stealing your thunder here Sportsbabe.

Just a case of "been there, done that". :p

[Maikeru-sama]

I have said this many times on other boards. Me, right here, the guy typing this message is a supporter of Quincy Carter. Mainly because we have invested so much time in this guy, I would like to see him improve and succeed. But....

Again, this guy was our 1st pick in the 2001 Draft. I beleive I should expect more from a former 1st pick than 3 seasons of More INTs than TDs, questionable decision making and up and down play in general at the QB Position. I am almost certain that this guy cannot lead a team to a Super Bowl all by himself but how many QBs playing today can. All he is asked to do is to be as mistake free as possible, throw the ball away when neccessary and make a couple of plays every now and then. As a supporter, I know I get frustrated when I see this same old scenario at the beginning of the year and the end of the year with Carter:

Carter drops back
No receivers open
Carter is under pressure
Carter rolls to his right and back
While jumping in the air, Carter throws the ball right to the Corner or LB staring him down the whole time

This scenario seemed to happen a bunch last year. He knows he has to improve. Hell Bill was even nice enough to jot all of the needed improvements down on a notecard this Off Season.

http://www.dallascowboyz.com/avatars/Me_Mickgreen58.jpg

As you can see, Mickgreen58 AKA Mike is black, so please do not use the "Race Card" if you plan to offer a counterargument to anything I have said.

Living in Big D my whole life, I know there are some fans that do not like him because his race, hell I have seen it, but I beleive the majority of people judge him by his play.

Go ask Don Meredith about how Cowboys fans treat their QBs
Go ask Roger Staubach about how Cowboys fans treat their QBs
Danny White, Hogeboom, Aikman, the list goes on....

Carter, Henson, Hutch and MANY others to come will not be given any mercy. If you want to be QB for the Cowboys, you better have really think skin.

I need to go find the passage in "Cowboys have always been my heroes", a good book I am reading, where Don Meredith and other Cowboys had just lost a playoff game. They were going to eat at a restaurant here in Dallas, and people started leaving because they didnt want to eat with "Losers".

Also, the only thing I hate is when fans go after the family members of Cowboy Players. I think that is hitting below the belt. I have heard people viciously attack Quincy Carter's sister, which I think is stupid.

- Mike G.

[LaTunaNostra]

Sure they do, you just do not hear it unless you are a fan of that team. Culpepper ,Vick, and McNabb definitely, all the time.
Yah, Sarge, and I just saw it once AGAIN on the board you moderate, about Vick. LMAO.

Gosh if this kid turns into some kind of cool hand Montana there'll be egg on some faces. :D

[Cheap Shot Artist]

Sure they do, you just do not hear it unless you are a fan of that team. Culpepper ,Vick, and McNabb definitely, all the time.

To the extent QC does...its not even close

Put it this way..you are now officially an opposing DC and have to face the above mentioned black QB's

Which one, strikes the least amount of fear?

here's you list..McNair, McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, Leftwich and QC

Then look at our division...Ya got Warner, McNabb, Brunell, and QC

Again, which QB would strike the least amount of fear?

The Eagles, Giants, and Skins defensive Coordinators hope the QC experiment lasts as long as possible

Now lets look at at the last 13 SB winners

the winning team either had a dominant QB (Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner who's 1st 3 seasons had unparalleled numbers, Brady) or legendary defenses like the '00 Ravens and '02 Bucs

Dallas and Denver also had dominant running games

Now..once again, if you dont think QC could have won 3 SB's on the 92, 93, and '95 teams (heck even 1!!!), with as much talent as those rosters had (the likes of which we may never see again because of the cap), why build around him with inferior offensive talent?

[LaTunaNostra]

I
I need to go find the passage in "Cowboys have always been my heroes", a good book I am reading, where Don Meredith and other Cowboys had just lost a playoff game. They were going to eat at a restaurant here in Dallas, and people started leaving because they didnt want to eat with "Losers".


Hey, on your recommendation I ordered that one from Amazon.com.

It's due to arrive this week.

Don't give too much away, okay?

BTW, if Jets fans didn't want to eat with losers, we'd have all starved to death.

[Maikeru-sama]

Hey, on your recommendation I ordered that one from Amazon.com.

It's due to arrive this week.

Don't give too much away, okay?

BTW, if Jets fans didn't want to eat with losers, we'd have all starved to death.


No Problemo. That is a hell of a book man, you will enjoy it. I am almost done and will probably read Harris and Water's book next.

These QB debates get old. Once I got into the book, I found out that this stuff went on even in the early 60's.

- Mike G.

[BHendri5]

If QC were white, chances are his brain farts would be chalked up to speed of the game issues, to developmental curve, youth and inexperience, getting familiar with defenses, not yet automaticized read and react time, or to any of the host of semantic options open to analyzing white QBs.

But since he's NOT white, it's a "mental capacity" issue. I've also noticed those who debate these topics (which are far beyond the scope of their expertise), are never those who read like folks qualified for Rhodes Scholarships themselves.

We've had this discussion here before.

The one about how Tim Couch's intelligence didn't get questioned, but Mike Vick's does. How Akili Smith was dumb, but Cade McNown just couldn't get it done. How Kordell is too dense to learn a playbook, but Ryan Leaf, a true dumbarse, had "maturity issues".

I've seen virtually every black QB's intelligence questioned on sportsboards in the five years I've used them, including Daunte Culpepper's by a Jets fan who lived in central Florida and wagered everyone Daunte was too stupid to succeed. I see Vick's gray matter debated on a weekly basis. Funny how his HC seems to think he's bright enough to master a wco.

When Drew Bledsoe strikes out with both Ernie Zampese's and Kevin Gilbride's intricate offenses, they weren't "right for him. When Kordell Stewart does so, it's congenital.

Pre internet days, I heard the same discussion on Warren Moon, Doug Williams, and James Harris. I have read the same debate also applied to Marlon Briscoe.
Not smart enough "to lead".

When OCs took advantage of the mobility of a Rich Gannon or way back when, a Fran Tarkenton, that was a smart move. When Randall Cunningham used his legs, it was because he didn't have enough brains to use.

When Bill Parcells ran the same simplified offense for vet QB Vinnie Testaverde in NY, it was about "cutting down on interceptions". For the much younger Quincy Carter, it is "reading half the field ".

I have a special regard for Mr. Terry Bradshaw.

He was, to my knowledge, the only well known white QB who bore the stigma (too dumb to be an NFL QB) every black QB bears, that is, those who were lucky enough not to get shunted to receiver or tail in college, like Tony Dungy and so many others were.

BTW, not stealing your thunder here Sportsbabe.

Just a case of "been there, done that". :p


Lady, I'm falling for you. :)

[LaTunaNostra]

Lady, I'm falling for you. :)
I won't get my hopes up, Sarge.

By now I know there's only room for Quincy in your heart. :D

[BHendri5]

Yah, Sarge, and I just saw it once AGAIN on the board you moderate, about Vick. LMAO.

Gosh if this kid turns into some kind of cool hand Montana there'll be egg on some faces. :D


You know what that would be some great egg too, I would help them eat that egg.

Oh, they cut my rotation short so I'll back home around the middle of Sept. I should be home for the second weekend of the season. I'll have to change my Username once I get back.

[BHendri5]

I won't get my hopes up, Sarge.

By now I know there's only room for Quincy in your heart. :D


For a beautiful Woman who knows football too, Lady, Quincy got to go. He will have to move around. LOL

[LaTunaNostra]

Oh, they cut my rotation short so I'll back home around the middle of Sept. I should be home for the second weekend of the season. I'll have to change my Username once I get back.


Lucky dawg.

I'm saving the tapes of the four preseason games for NoDakCowboy then.

You'll be home by the time the camel route to your APO gets them to Baghdad. :p

[BHendri5]

To the extent QC does...its not even close

Put it this way..you are now officially an opposing DC and have to face the above mentioned black QB's

Which one, strikes the least amount of fear?

here's you list..McNair, McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, Leftwich and QC

Then look at our division...Ya got Warner, McNabb, Brunell, and QC

Again, which QB would strike the least amount of fear?

The Eagles, Giants, and Skins defensive Coordinators hope the QC experiment lasts as long as possible

Now lets look at at the last 13 SB winners

the winning team either had a dominant QB (Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner who's 1st 3 seasons had unparalleled numbers, Brady) or legendary defenses like the '00 Ravens and '02 Bucs

Dallas and Denver also had dominant running games

Now..once again, if you dont think QC could have won 3 SB's on the 92, 93, and '95 teams (heck even 1!!!), with as much talent as those rosters had (the likes of which we may never see again because of the cap), why build around him with inferior offensive talent?


Leftwich, because he was a rookie and now ihe is going into his second year, but he still has not seen everything and it has not came together for him yet., Then Vick, he may run better than QC, I do not think he is ahead of QC in his development not now especially since QC has Parcells, Peyton and now Vinny. Then QC. On another note you do know that Culpepper fumbles alot.

Now in the NFC East, Warner worries me the least, then QC, and on another note Brunnell is brittle, so it is close in my mind.


Oh and on the teams that won, Heck yeah we would have won with Carter, we had too, too much talent to lose. Irvin would have caught anything Carter threw, just like he did for aikman and any other QB that was subbing for aikman. Also Irvin would have kept Carter after practice with him just like he did aikman so that they would always be on the same page. Irvin help aikman out a lot, he was telling aikman how he can beat his man, or how he was being covered, he always stayed after practice working, have you forgotten? Do you actually think that Irvin would have let Carter bomb had he been the QB on that team? He would have been on Carter from day one, helping him to succeed.

[BHendri5]

Lucky dawg.

I'm saving the tapes of the four preseason games for NoDakCowboy then.

You'll be home by the time the camel route to your APO gets them to Baghdad. :p



LOL, yeah Nodak will enjoy them.

[junk]

Leftwich, because he was a rookie and now ihe is going into his second year, but he still has not seen everything and it has not came together for him yet., Then Vick, he may run better than QC, I do not think he is ahead of QC in his development not now especially since QC has Parcells, Peyton and now Vinny. Then QC. On another note you do know that Culpepper fumbles alot.

Now in the NFC East, Warner worries me the least, then QC, and on another note Brunnell is brittle, so it is close in my mind.


Oh and on the teams that won, Heck yeah we would have won with Carter, we had too, too much talent to lose. Irvin would have caught anything Carter threw, just like he did for aikman and any other QB that was subbing for aikman. Also Irvin would have kept Carter after practice with him just like he did aikman so that they would always be on the same page. Irvin help aikman out a lot, he was telling aikman how he can beat his man, or how he was being covered, he always stayed after practice working, have you forgotten? Do you actually think that Irvin would have let Carter bomb had he been the QB on that team? He would have been on Carter from day one, helping him to succeed.

This is something we will never agree on so I don't know why I post, but I guess I feel the need to defend Aikman like you do for Carter.

Aikman is hands down a far more accurate QB than Carter is and probably ever will be. His accuracy and Super Bowl victories will be his legacy. Irvin and Emmitt would not have had the careers they did without Aikman. Those teams would have been hard pressed to win one Super Bowl with Carter, much less three.

Give the guy his due, I will give QC his if/when he earns it.

[BHendri5]

This is something we will never agree on so I don't know why I post, but I guess I feel the need to defend Aikman like you do for Carter.

Aikman is hands down a far more accurate QB than Carter is and probably ever will be. His accuracy and Super Bowl victories will be his legacy. Irvin and Emmitt would not have had the careers they did without Aikman. Those teams would have been hard pressed to win one Super Bowl with Carter, much less three.

Give the guy his due, I will give QC his if/when he earns it.


Can't give it to him, because he never won without Emmitt and Irvin, but they won without him. You like stats, look back and see how many times aikman won without those guys. Look at each guy individually and see for yourself who was more successful without one or two. You will see that aikman was not successful at all. Those stats has been posted here before, you may not have been a member then, but they have been posted here before.

You know I do give aikman his due, he was great at managing the game, he was great at carrying out what the coaches asked of him, but rest assure the team that was around aikman, would have won with any QB that could be a bus driver, an average QB could have won SBs with those teams, those teams had it all.

[MichaelWinicki]

Can't give it to him, because he never won without Emmitt and Irvin, but they won without him. You like stats, look back and see how many times aikman won without those guys. Look at each guy individually and see for yourself who was more successful without one or two. You will see that aikman was not successful at all. Those stats has been posted here before, you may not have been a member then, but they have been posted here before.

You know I do give aikman his due, he was great at managing the game, he was great at carrying out what the coaches asked of him, but rest assure the team that was around aikman, would have won with any QB that could be a bus driver, an average QB could have won SBs with those teams, those teams had it all.


The thing you're missing on CNI is that Troy Aikman was for all intensive purposes one of the most accurate passers of all time. Period. End of discussion. AND he did it in an offense that was not "West Coast". We're talking about an offense that drove the length of the field with skinny posts and deep outs.

Quincy can live till he's 100 and can practice 28 hours per day, but he'll never have Aikman's accuracy. And Aikman's accuracy didn't come from having skilled offensive players around him, it came from God given talent and an ability to read defenses.

To compare Quincy to Aikman is ludicrous.

[jimmy40]

Leftwich, because he was a rookie and now ihe is going into his second year, but he still has not seen everything and it has not came together for him yet., Then Vick, he may run better than QC, I do not think he is ahead of QC in his development not now especially since QC has Parcells, Peyton and now Vinny. Then QC. On another note you do know that Culpepper fumbles alot.

Now in the NFC East, Warner worries me the least, then QC, and on another note Brunnell is brittle, so it is close in my mind.


Oh and on the teams that won, Heck yeah we would have won with Carter, we had too, too much talent to lose. Irvin would have caught anything Carter threw, just like he did for aikman and any other QB that was subbing for aikman. Also Irvin would have kept Carter after practice with him just like he did aikman so that they would always be on the same page. Irvin help aikman out a lot, he was telling aikman how he can beat his man, or how he was being covered, he always stayed after practice working, have you forgotten? Do you actually think that Irvin would have let Carter bomb had he been the QB on that team? He would have been on Carter from day one, helping him to succeed.Remember when Aikman asked Ervin witch 8 he wanted the ball to hit?

[BHendri5]

The thing you're missing on CNI is that Troy Aikman was for all intensive purposes one of the most accurate passers of all time. Period. End of discussion. AND he did it in an offense that was not "West Coast". We're talking about an offense that drove the length of the field with skinny posts and deep outs.

Quincy can live till he's 100 and can practice 28 hours per day, but he'll never have Aikman's accuracy. And Aikman's accuracy didn't come from having skilled offensive players around him, it came from God given talent and an ability to read defenses.

To compare Quincy to Aikman is ludicrous.


I'll tell you what is ludicrous, believing that it was God given talent. Accuracy can be achieved with practice, I've seen QBs do it all the time, I watched you guys boy hutch do it last TC. Accuracy can be taught, and with practice you get better and better just like blocking reading defenses. It took aikman 3yrs to get the reading of defenses down, as far as we know. He may have still been learning to read defenses up into his 5th or 6th season, we do not know for sure, but we do know that it took him 3yrs for sure, and he had it down enough so that we could win a Super Bowl in his 4th season. NO it is not ludicrous to comapre Quincy to Aikman they are 2 people no different than any other person in this world, or any other QB that has played football.

oh you for got the comeback patterns, the curl patterns, the crossing patterns, Naw fella you forgot a lot, yeah they drove the length of the field, I agree with you there, but the majority of that would be running the ball.

You know all you fellas can boast about when it comes to aikman is his accuracy, man, that is not much, I'm sure aikman would want you to remember him by more than just.

There have been 39 SuperBowls played, Do you know HOW many QBs has lead their teams to victory and without being as accurate as aikman. You do not need to be accurate to lead your team to the Super bowl (Delhomme) and you definitely do not need to be accurate to win it either.

So that accuracy card you guys keep tossing around, you need to leave it in the closet, because it is old and worn out, you need more than a strong arm and accuracy.

[BHendri5]

Remember when Aikman asked Ervin witch 8 he wanted the ball to hit?
Yeah right!! LOL. How bout it went more like I'll just try and hit you in the numbers everytime.

[BHendri5]

The thing you're missing on CNI is that Troy Aikman was for all intensive purposes one of the most accurate passers of all time. Period. End of discussion. AND he did it in an offense that was not "West Coast". We're talking about an offense that drove the length of the field with skinny posts and deep outs.

Quincy can live till he's 100 and can practice 28 hours per day, but he'll never have Aikman's accuracy. And Aikman's accuracy didn't come from having skilled offensive players around him, it came from God given talent and an ability to read defenses.

To compare Quincy to Aikman is ludicrous.


And another thing, if you were to go out and practice all those accuracy throwing drills you would become very accurate also.

[junk]

And another thing, if you were to go out and practice all those accuracy throwing drills you would become very accurate also.

How come Quincy hasn't figured it out then yet?

[BHendri5]

How come Quincy hasn't figured it out then yet?


Why don't you go and ask him? He'll talk to you and he'll answer your questions. When you go to TC, ask him.

He's a QB and has been for a long time now, he probably figures that is not a top priority right now, he is a QB, you and I are just fans, trying to figure out what our teams needs from each player and what they need to do as a team to win that Lombardi trophy.

[junk]

Why don't you go and ask him? He'll talk to you and he'll answer your questions. When you go to TC, ask him.

He's a QB and has been for a long time now, he probably figures that is not a top priority right now, he is a QB, you and I are just fans, trying to figure out what our teams needs from each player and what they need to do as a team to win that Lombardi trophy.

Me: How come you haven't worked on your accuracy QC? CowboynIRAQ says if you just practice, you would be accurate, but you must not think it is a top priority right now.

QC: What?

Me: Yeah, apparently being able to throw the ball to a spot where your reciever is at or will be at or in other words, accuracy, is not a top priority for you right now. Could you work on that because I am getting tired of you throwing balls behind guys and CowboynIRAQ says all you have to do is practice and you can do it.

QC: Which reminds me kids. Don't ever smoke crack.

:rolleyes:

[BHendri5]

Me: How come you haven't worked on your accuracy QC? CowboynIRAQ says if you just practice, you would be accurate, but you must not think it is a top priority right now.

QC: What?

Me: Yeah, apparently being able to throw the ball to a spot where your reciever is at or will be at or in other words, accuracy, is not a top priority for you right now. Could you work on that because I am getting tired of you throwing balls behind guys and CowboynIRAQ says all you have to do is practice and you can do it.

QC: Which reminds me kids. Don't ever smoke crack.

:rolleyes:



You should be telling kids not to show your crack? While you are rolling your eyes try and find some kind of sense, in all that space you have in your head. LOL

You know, the saying is that you ought to be able to make fun of yourself, so I guess you are not crazy.

Now on a serious note, You act like you're afraid of Carter, I was serious when you go to TC like you said you were going ask him why he is not as accurate as you would like him to be, He'll talk to you, and You'll get a good answer.

You want to make jokes like you're scared of him or something.

[BHendri5]

Me: How come you haven't worked on your accuracy QC? CowboynIRAQ says if you just practice, you would be accurate, but you must not think it is a top priority right now.

QC: What?

Me: Yeah, apparently being able to throw the ball to a spot where your reciever is at or will be at or in other words, accuracy, is not a top priority for you right now. Could you work on that because I am getting tired of you throwing balls behind guys and CowboynIRAQ says all you have to do is practice and you can do it.

QC: Which reminds me kids. Don't ever smoke crack.

:rolleyes:


Hold your thoughts, I got shift change, I'll be back in on duty in 12 hrs.
Peace

[Charles]

I love these kind of speculations

Off the subject personal note: I was typing this post while watching the Packers/Raiders 1999 game replay on NFL Network. Favre hurt his hand that day. It prompted one of the game announcers to say that Favre has a HIGH tolerance for pain. In my opinion, ANYBODY has a high tolerance for pain when they're an admitted Vicodin addict, but that's just me. Back to my reply...

Crosby: "Is Quincy Carter a quarterback that could deliver 20-25 touchdown passes and only throw 10-12 interceptions during a 16-game regular season?"

IMO? Hell, no. Now comes a BETTER question based upon Mr. Crosby's own assumption.

What quarterback in the entire NFL CAN guarantee to throw 20+ touchdowns AND 12-or-less interceptions during a 16-game regular season? Let's look at what quarterbacks could have fit those same parameters during the last quarter century...

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Peyton Manning 2003 Colts 29 10
Trent Green 2003 Chiefs 24 12
Aaron Brooks 2003 Saints 24 8
Tom Brady 2003 Patriots 23 12
Final Team Results Summary: Colts/AFC runnerup, Chiefs/AFC divisional loser, Saints/NFC South runnerup, Patriots/Super Bowl winner

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Rich Gannon 2002 Raiders 26 10
Jeff Garcia 2002 49ers 21 10
Final Team Results Summary: Raiders/Super Bowl runnerup, 49ers/NFC divisional loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Donovan McNabb 2001 Eagles 25 12
Rich Gannon 2001 Raiders 27 9
Jeff Garcia 2001 49ers 32 12
Final Team Results Summary: Eagles/NFC runnerup, Raiders/AFC divisional loser [they were robbed], 49ers/NFC wild card loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Rich Gannon 2000 Raiders 28 11
Jeff Garcia 2000 49ers 31 10
Final Team Results Summary: Raiders/AFC runnerup, 49ers/NFC West 4th-place finisher

1999. Zero, but notable quarterbacks who threw 20+ touchdowns & 19-or-less interceptions--

PLAYER TEAM TD INT
Steve Beuerlein Panthers 36 15 Did not make playoffs
Peyton Manning Colts 26 15 AFC divisional loser
Elvis Grbac Chiefs 22 15 Did not make playoffs
Rich Gannon Raiders 24 14 Did not make playoffs
Kurt Warner Rams 41 13 Super Bowl winner
Brad Johnson Redskins 24 13 NFC divisional loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Randall Cunningham 1998 Vikings 34 10
Final Team Results Summary: NFC runnerup

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
John Elway 1997 Broncos 27 11
Jeff George 1997 Raiders 29 9
Trent Dilfer 1997 Buccaneers 21 11
Final Team Results Summary: Broncos/Super Bowl winner, Raiders/AFC West 4th-place finisher, Buccaneers/NFC divisional loser

1996. Nada, but notable quarterbacks who threw 20+ touchdowns & 19-or-less interceptions--

PLAYER TEAM TD INT
Jeff Blake Bengals 24 14 Did not make playoffs
Brett Favre Packers 39 13 Super Bowl winner
Drew Bledsoe Patriots 27 15 Super Bowl runnerup
Vinny Testaverde Ravens 33 19 Did not make playoffs


PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Jeff George 1995 Falcons 24 11
Erik Kramer 1995 Bears 29 10
Scott Mitchell 1995 Lions 32 12
Steve Bono 1995 Chiefs 21 10
Final Team Results Summary: Falcons/NFC wild card loser, Bears/NFC Central 3rd-place finisher, Lions/NFC wild card loser, Chiefs/AFC divisional loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Steve Young 1994 49ers 35 10
Final Team Results Summary: 49ers/Super Bowl winner

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
John Elway 1993 Broncos 25 10
Final Team Results Summary: Broncos/AFC wild card loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Steve Young 1992 49ers 25 7
Final Team Results Summary: 49ers/NFC runnerup

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Mark Rypien 1991 Redskins 28 11
Final Team Results Summary: Redskins/Super Bowl winner

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Steve Deberg 1990 Chiefs 23 4
Dan Marino 1990 Dolphins 21 11
Final Team Results Summary: Chiefs/AFC wild card loser, Dolphins/AFC divisional loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Boomer Esiason 1989 Bengals 28 11
Final Team Results Summary: Bengals/AFC Central last place finisher

1988. Zlitch, but notable quarterbacks who threw 20+ touchdowns & 19-or-less interceptions--

PLAYER TEAM TD INT
Boomer Esiason Bengals 28 14 Super Bowl runnerup
Bobby Hebert Saints 20 15 Did not make playoffs
Randall Cunningham Eagles 24 16 NFC divisional loser
Jim Everett Rams 31 18 NFC wild card loser

1987. Strike year.

1986...

PLAYER TEAM TD INT
Jim Kelly Bills 22 17 Did not make playoffs
Boomer Esiason Bengals 24 17 Did not make playoffs
Dan Marino Dolphins 44 23 Did not make playoffs
Phil Simms Giants 21 22 Wonder what Parcells expected?
Jay Schroeder Redskins 22 22 NFC runnerup

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Ken O'Brien 1985 Jets 25 8
Final Team Results Summary: Jets/AFC wild card loser

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Tony Eason 1984 Patriots 23 8
Joe Montana 1984 49ers 28 10
Final Team Results Summary: Patriots/AFC East runnerup, 49ers/Super Bowl winner

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Joe Montana 1983 49ers 26 12
Joe Theismann 1983 Redskins 29 11
Final Team Results Summary: 49ers/NFC runnerups, Redskins/Super Bowl runnerup

1982. Strike year.

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Ken Anderson 1981 Bengals 29 10
Final Team Results Summary: Super Bowl runnerup

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Ron Jaworski 1980 Eagles 27 12
Final Team Results Summary: Super Bowl runnerup

PLAYER YEAR TEAM TD INT
Roger Staubach 1979 Cowboys 27 11
Final Team Results Summary: Cowboys/NFC divisional loser ["Paging Mr. Crosby... paging Mr. Crosby..."]

Here's a a breakdown of the quarterbacks' teams who actually fit within Mr. Crosby's expectation--

Finish %
Divisional loser 21%
Did not make playoffs 18%
Wild card loser 18%
Conference Runnerup 18%
Super Bowl winner 15%
Super Bowl runnerup 12%

Insane. Mr. Crosby's rules include a few Super Bowl quarterbacks, but not all. Wouldn't it be simpler to expect a successful quarterback in a Parcells-style offense to--

1. Throw more TDs than INTs
2. Stay within the offensive scheme



In other words, a ball-control quarterback. Plain and simple. Parcells hopes that he has one on his roster now, but only the season will decide if he actually has one. IMO, that's within Parcells expectations. On the other hand, Mr. Crosby's expectations are a bit more extreme. The team could have a better season than last year's and the starting quarterback still doesn't have to put up those types of numbers. And he doesn't have to.
Great post DallaEast

[LynnFoster]

I have said this many times on other boards. Me, right here, the guy typing this message is a supporter of Quincy Carter. Mainly because we have invested so much time in this guy, I would like to see him improve and succeed. But....

Again, this guy was our 1st pick in the 2001 Draft. I beleive I should expect more from a former 1st pick than 3 seasons of More INTs than TDs, questionable decision making and up and down play in general at the QB Position. I am almost certain that this guy cannot lead a team to a Super Bowl all by himself but how many QBs playing today can. All he is asked to do is to be as mistake free as possible, throw the ball away when neccessary and make a couple of plays every now and then. As a supporter, I know I get frustrated when I see this same old scenario at the beginning of the year and the end of the year with Carter:

Carter drops back
No receivers open
Carter is under pressure
Carter rolls to his right and back
While jumping in the air, Carter throws the ball right to the Corner or LB staring him down the whole time

This scenario seemed to happen a bunch last year. He knows he has to improve. Hell Bill was even nice enough to jot all of the needed improvements down on a notecard this Off Season.

http://www.dallascowboyz.com/avatars/Me_Mickgreen58.jpg

As you can see, Mickgreen58 AKA Mike is black, so please do not use the "Race Card" if you plan to offer a counterargument to anything I have said.

Living in Big D my whole life, I know there are some fans that do not like him because his race, hell I have seen it, but I beleive the majority of people judge him by his play.

Go ask Don Meredith about how Cowboys fans treat their QBs
Go ask Roger Staubach about how Cowboys fans treat their QBs
Danny White, Hogeboom, Aikman, the list goes on....

Carter, Henson, Hutch and MANY others to come will not be given any mercy. If you want to be QB for the Cowboys, you better have really think skin.

I need to go find the passage in "Cowboys have always been my heroes", a good book I am reading, where Don Meredith and other Cowboys had just lost a playoff game. They were going to eat at a restaurant here in Dallas, and people started leaving because they didnt want to eat with "Losers".

Also, the only thing I hate is when fans go after the family members of Cowboy Players. I think that is hitting below the belt. I have heard people viciously attack Quincy Carter's sister, which I think is stupid.

- Mike G.


Great post Mike.

[Hostile]

Great post Mike.
Lynn. I'm glad to see you posting. Please join in more often and quit lurking.

I agree. That was a fantastic post and I PMed MickGreen and told him how much I appreciated it.

[billknows]

Babe what a joke you really are,, are you really a fan

Heres how it is really going down and smart fans know this,unlike you!

First off carter will start the season no matter what, Vinnie and our future henson will not out preform him or really be given the chance to that extent,it's a coach confidence thing,he's earned the start of the season,and there will not be enough justification to put the 40 yr. old or the rookie in period!!!!!!!

Carter starts, now guess what, our schedule looks to be a 5-1 start. Carter will have plenty of confidence and our line/ running game will have a chance to gell and be much better than at the start of the season. Carter will also have a chance to get in sync with Key, that could also help his status.

These points that i've stated alone give give Carter the power to be the Dallas Cowboys Quarterback throughout the season. now add the fact that carter has worked hard and should natually progress to be more improved through coaching / job maturity he should have a fewer number of mistakes than last year, whether that is enough to get fans to rally behind him,my guess is a still luke warm feeling that is greatly helped by a winning record.

WOW!! you know what I totally forgot about our DEFENSE. A defense that is # 1 in the NFL that has upgraded by FA and experience ( with the slight chance of downplay at corner,I think at least same or better play( f23k Irving) than PI Edwards) . A defense that is Carters best friend, as allways,no exception this year. Eleven more men to help strengthen his position as starting QB.

We will win 10-11 games with the Q bank it baby... His percieved weaknesses will show themselves throughout the season ,and may actually cost him a benching this season,but I sort of dought it,mainly because Parcells dosent know if Carter can bounce back from a deserved benching.

Has Bill and JJ boxed themselves in a position to be forced to ride a QB that has 2 winning records in a row, and the answer is NO WAY Baby................That was` what our draft move was all about. We will have two first rounders and a second to strengthen our team weaknesses this year,and allow Bill to make a bold choice to move up Henson . Parcells will put the man that gives the Cowboys the best potential skills/ future the job next year and Carter will have to have a really exceptional year to stay the starter next year. i am assuming Henson has the skill to take the chance on,I think he probably does,and can excell next yr, ....Remember he has 11 good men in his corner too,and 2 first rounders!!!


That's whats really going on........................



bill knows

[MichaelWinicki]

Me: How come you haven't worked on your accuracy QC? CowboynIRAQ says if you just practice, you would be accurate, but you must not think it is a top priority right now.

QC: What?

Me: Yeah, apparently being able to throw the ball to a spot where your reciever is at or will be at or in other words, accuracy, is not a top priority for you right now. Could you work on that because I am getting tired of you throwing balls behind guys and CowboynIRAQ says all you have to do is practice and you can do it.

QC: Which reminds me kids. Don't ever smoke crack.

:rolleyes:

:D

ROFL!

[Bluefin]

Aikman is hands down a far more accurate QB than Carter is and probably ever will be. His accuracy and Super Bowl victories will be his legacy. Irvin and Emmitt would not have had the careers they did without Aikman. Those teams would have been hard pressed to win one Super Bowl with Carter, much less three.

Give the guy his due, I will give QC his if/when he earns it.

Troy Aikman was one of, if not the, most accurate passers in the history of football.

It was a gift.

Every quarterback continually refines his mechanics throughout his career, but Aikman was naturally as close to mechanically perfect as a quarterback can get.

The only perculiarity with Aikman was how he griped the football with the laces in his palm.

That was why rainy conditions and slick balls could sometimes give him major problems.

We also have to consider that Aikman was a perfect fit for Norval Turner's timing based offense.

Aikman was in his fourth year in the league and second in Turner's system when Dallas won the first of three Super Bowls during his career.

Quincy Carter is now entering his fourth season and second in Sean Payton's passing attack (Mo is the OC, but Payton is in charge of the passing game).

I'm not expecting a Super Bowl, but things could get interesting if several players take the next step along with Carter.


Can't give it to him, because he never won without Emmitt and Irvin, but they won without him. You like stats, look back and see how many times aikman won without those guys. Look at each guy individually and see for yourself who was more successful without one or two. You will see that aikman was not successful at all. Those stats has been posted here before, you may not have been a member then, but they have been posted here before.

You know I do give aikman his due, he was great at managing the game, he was great at carrying out what the coaches asked of him, but rest assure the team that was around aikman, would have won with any QB that could be a bus driver, an average QB could have won SBs with those teams, those teams had it all.
Each of the triplets, or should I say quadrulets (Novacek) was a vital cog in the offense.

The scheme was very dependant on the offensive line and running game.

Aikman himself pointed to Novacek's early retirement as the beginning of the end.

Aikman wasn't able to elevate average players into Pro Bowlers, few quarterbacks can.

And Aikman wasn't gifted in come from behind victories a la Roger staubach or John Elway.

Aikman was a sharpshooter from 25 yards in and his greatest strength was his willingness to stand tall in the pocker and wait until an option came open.

As the team started its death throes, that strength also porved to be Aikman's greatest weakness.

Troy was able to slide and sidestep defenders in his early years, but was a sitting duck towards the end.

If Aikman needed a dominant line in front of him to succeed, why do some label it an apology when the issue is raised on Carter's behalf?


I'll tell you what is ludicrous, believing that it was God given talent. Accuracy can be achieved with practice, I've seen QBs do it all the time, I watched you guys boy hutch do it last TC. Accuracy can be taught, and with practice you get better and better just like blocking reading defenses. It took aikman 3yrs to get the reading of defenses down, as far as we know. He may have still been learning to read defenses up into his 5th or 6th season, we do not know for sure, but we do know that it took him 3yrs for sure, and he had it down enough so that we could win a Super Bowl in his 4th season. NO it is not ludicrous to comapre Quincy to Aikman they are 2 people no different than any other person in this world, or any other QB that has played football.
I also believe Aikman's accuracy was mostly natural ability.

Good coaching helped improve Aikman as a passer, but some quarterbacks come into the league possessing near flawless mechanics and throwing motions.

Aikman was such a case

I also believe that quarterbacks who have accuracy problems can improve if it is linked to their mechanics.

Carter is such a case.

Quincy has made tremendous strides as a passer since entering the league and there's no reason to think he's reached his ceiling in this area.

Last year in week one, Troy Aikman said that Carter was as good as most passers in the NFL when he knew where he wanted to go with the ball (which is why I want to see the running game keep the team in short yardage situations and limit what defenses can do).

Troy isn't one to hand out compliments to any Cowboy over the airwaves.

If the team continues to improve and defenses aren't able to sit back all the time in pass defense, I do believe Carter can play at a high level.

Plenty of it is on Carter, but there is also quite a few things the team can improve on to help carter play better.

[junk]

You should be telling kids not to show your crack? While you are rolling your eyes try and find some kind of sense, in all that space you have in your head. LOL

You know, the saying is that you ought to be able to make fun of yourself, so I guess you are not crazy.

Now on a serious note, You act like you're afraid of Carter, I was serious when you go to TC like you said you were going ask him why he is not as accurate as you would like him to be, He'll talk to you, and You'll get a good answer.

You want to make jokes like you're scared of him or something.

I think of anyone on this board, you are probably the last one that should question my intelligence.

I am not afraid of Carter, I was making a joke to try to point out how ridiculous your replies have been.

If becoming accurate is simply a matter of practicing, why hasn't Carter done it yet? In my mind, what could be more important that being able to get the ball to the receiver? If it is accurate, it will not be intercepted and will allow the receiver to run after the catch. To me, accuracy seems to be a very important trait for a QB. What good is a QB with a cannon arm, if he can't hit the broadside of a barn?

[MichaelWinicki]

I think of anyone on this board, you are probably the last one that should question my intelligence.

I am not afraid of Carter, I was making a joke to try to point out how ridiculous your replies have been.

If becoming accurate is simply a matter of practicing, why hasn't Carter done it yet? In my mind, what could be more important that being able to get the ball to the receiver? If it is accurate, it will not be intercepted and will allow the receiver to run after the catch. To me, accuracy seems to be a very important trait for a QB. What good is a QB with a cannon arm, if he can't hit the broadside of a barn?


Junk. Rest assured by the end of training camp we'll all have a pretty good idea if we have the "new & improved" Quincy or the old recipe.

[starfrombirth]

[QUOTE
Carter's main task is to eliminate the impulse plays from his reportoire that so often led to mishaps on the field.

If Q can do that, something Parcells claimed all of his previous signal callers have had to learn, he'll remain on the field for Dallas this season.

Love that Crosby.[/QUOTE]

I somewhat agree, but Keep in mind that big bill wanted a bus driver last year, while he was still installing a new system. This year i dont believe that bus driving is enuff. Bill will want production ( see vinny and drew). I think everyone will agree that neither one of them is a projected driver, ergo Carter will not be allowed to be one either. It's just common sense. :D

[Maikeru-sama]

Troy Aikman was a fairly gifted NFL Passer. I think he benefited alot from the Personell around him. He was QB that could make plays but I never felt he was the type of QB that could carry a team on his back.

I think Troy Aikman will get the Hall of Fame nod because of his performances in the Playoffs and his 3 Super Bowl Rings. If you compare Aikman's numbers to other Hall of Fame QB, especially the ones of his error (Favre, Young, etc etc), his numbers are not that great. I am not sure if Aikman is even in the Top 2 QBs in Cowboys history.

Aikman is FAR Greater than Carter, and it is pointless to argue that, but he wasn't the type of QB that could carry an entire team.

Of any of the big Weapons Dallas had, I feel Emmitt Smith was the most important.

- Mike G.

[Bluefin]

I somewhat agree, but Keep in mind that big bill wanted a bus driver last year, while he was still installing a new system. This year i dont believe that bus driving is enuff. Bill will want production ( see vinny and drew). I think everyone will agree that neither one of them is a projected driver, ergo Carter will not be allowed to be one either. It's just common sense. :D

Bill Parcells still wants to have a bus driver at quarterback, someone who can manage the game and give the team a chance to win.

That doesn't mean Parcells wanted to play it safe with a low risk passing game.

It was quite the opposite, Parcells wanted to use the running game to set up a downfield passing attack that gobbled up yardage in large junks.

Over the first half of the season with defenses at least partially concerning themselves with Dallas' running game, Carter and his receivers were having a blast.

That changed as defenses backed off and devoted themselves to stopping the passing game.

I expect Parcells will still want to try the same tactics this season, but the Cowboys are better equipped to to attack two deep zone defenses with possession threat Keyshawn Johnson and the emerging Jason Witten.

If given the option of having to rely on his running game or passing game to be his bread and butter, Parcells will always want to be able to run the ball.

That didn't happen last year, even with Parcells often force feeding the run to opposing defenses.

It fell on Carter and the receivers to get points and that's what defenses focused on taking away.

The situation didn't allow for a bus driver.

And Carter wasn't ready to be anything more than that, he may never be.

As for Vinny Testaverde, why isn't he a bus driver?

Vinny averaged 197 passing yards in 7 starts with 7 touchdowns and 2 interceptions.

The Jets went 2-7 in those games and needed more than Testaverde alone could give them.

The 17 year veteran is better at avoiding mistakes under less than ideal conditions, but Vinny needs help around him the same as Carter if the team is going to win with him starting.


Aikman is FAR Greater than Carter, and it is pointless to argue that, but he wasn't the type of QB that could carry an entire team.

Of any of the big Weapons Dallas had, I feel Emmitt Smith was the most important.

- Mike G.

I agree.

Little E and that big offensive line was the calling card of those great Cowboys teams.

[Doomsday101]

Bill Parcells still wants to have a bus driver at quarterback, someone who can manage the game and give the team a chance to win.

That doesn't mean Parcells wanted to play it safe with a low risk passing game.

It was quite the opposite, Parcells wanted to use the running game to set up a downfield passing attack that gobbled up yardage in large junks.

Over the first half of the season with defenses at least partially concerning themselves with Dallas' running game, Carter and his receivers were having a blast.

That changed as defenses backed off and devoted themselves to stopping the passing game.

I expect Parcells will still want to try the same tactics this season, but the Cowboys are better equipped to to attack two deep zone defenses with possession threat Keyshawn Johnson and the emerging Jason Witten.

If given the option of having to rely on his running game or passing game to be his bread and butter, Parcells will always want to be able to run the ball.

That didn't happen last year, even with Parcells often force feeding the run to opposing defenses.

It fell on Carter and the receivers to get points and that's what defenses focused on taking away.

The situation didn't allow for a bus driver.

And Carter wasn't ready to be anything more than that, he may never be.

As for Vinny Testaverde, why isn't he a bus driver?

Vinny averaged 197 passing yards in 7 starts with 7 touchdowns and 2 interceptions.

The Jets went 2-7 in those games and needed more than Testaverde alone could give them.

The 17 year veteran is better at avoiding mistakes under less than ideal conditions, but Vinny needs help around him the same as Carter if the team is going to win with him starting.




I agree.

Little E and that big offensive line was the calling card of those great Cowboys teams.

Problem is even early on the offense was not getting the job done. We played the giants in week 2 our offense put up 1 TD that is it, week one aginst atlanta the offese looked poor and Carter only hit 47% of his passes, aginst the Jets Hambrick went over 100 yards and yes Vinny posted better numbers. I don't doubt have more of a supporting cast will help the QB but how much and while it is easy to lay it on the supporting cast Carter still has his own shortcoming that he needs to overcome if he is ever to be the longterm solution. Myself I will not be suprised when Vinny takes that job from Carter.

[ChrisFul]

Problem is even early on the offense was not getting the job done. We played the giants in week 2 our offense put up 1 TD that is it, week one aginst atlanta the offese looked poor and Carter only hit 47% of his passes, aginst the Jets Hambrick went over 100 yards and yes Vinny posted better numbers. I don't doubt have more of a supporting cast will help the QB but how much and while it is easy to lay it on the supporting cast Carter still has his own shortcoming that he needs to overcome if he is ever to be the longterm solution. Myself I will not be suprised when Vinny takes that job from Carter.

Obviously, you won't be. You've been crowing about how worthless Carter is the day you registered on the forums. Not getting the job done? You must have a short memory. Dallas started the first 3 games of 2003 with the #1 offense in the NFL, and by week 6 or so we were #2.

Week 1 vs. the Falcons, Carter put up 270 yards passing and the offense had 403.
Week 2 vs the Giants, 320 passing and again, 403 total yards. Criticizing the offense as "not getting it done" is hardly fair when they marched up and down the field on the NYG. We just couldn't stick it in the endzone, but that's ok when you kick 7 FGs. That's still putting points on the board. Only 7 of the 35 came as a result of a defensive score. 28 points is 28 points, no matter how you score them, and more times than not you score 28 you are going to win. Against the jets, Vinny posted better numbers, but no TDs. Carter had a TD and only threw 23 passes total. Offense had over 360 total yards. The earlier poster was right about Parcells wanting a running game-oriented offense that "gobbled up" passing yards on downfield throws....Dallas finished #3 or #4 in the NFL in passing plays over 20 yards-we had somewhere around 40. I think only the Chiefs and a few other teams had more.

2 wins, 1 loss. That's a little better than "not getting it done". Our offense was fine. It didnt start really sliding until the Tampa game.

[LaTunaNostra]

Bill Parcells still wants to have a bus driver at quarterback, someone who can manage the game and give the team a chance to win.

That doesn't mean Parcells wanted to play it safe with a low risk passing game.

It was quite the opposite, Parcells wanted to use the running game to set up a downfield passing attack that gobbled up yardage in large junks.


That is Bill's O in a nutshell. He requires a bus driver at QB, but one who can air it out when the defenses give the leeway. He also wants an underneath game that will take pressure off the deep receivers and the run game.

Vinnie was the consummate bus driver in NY in 98, the first and only year Bill coached him. (In 99 he missed all but the first few drives of the opener to injury, and by 2000, Al Groh had taken over for Tuna as the HC, Bill remaining for that year as GM).

These are bus driver Vinnie's annotated numbers in '98. I am rehashing it because I've seen no evidence to date this is NOT exactly the offensive game Bill still wants.


13 starts, 14 appearances.

Tuna benched Glenn Foley FAST after two losses in which it was evident the kid could not use his weapons to best advantage. Foley did not have to "stink" to lose his job. Tuna is actually more forgiving of a horrendous day by a QB with multi picks and considersssuch outings critical events in a QB's development. He is far less forgiving of mediocrity bringing down the talent of those around him. Folks tend to point to Q's picks as evidence of his futlity. Well, you CAN'T turn the ball over in a ball control offense. But once the weapons are in place, I think the main criteria will be how effectively they are utilized. If Terry or AB are waving their arms out there, open, and Q doesn't see them, well.....

421 attempts, 259 completions, 61.5% pass completion ave.

A pass completion of 60% is a given. You can't execute ball control just on a run game, and a pass game predicated on not getting into third and long scenarios. The underneath game is critical in Bill's O, not just the long ball. He expects YAC from the receivers, and decent timing on short routes, and the ability of the QB to shoot that rock out before the defenders have closed in on the receiver.

3256 yards, YPA 7.73, a long of 82

This is a play action centered offense, but the bus driver doesn't have to be Dan Marino. That 7.73 YPA is the key and last year's 6.54 will not get it done.

29 TDs, 7 picks

Keeping in mind this a a player who had been plagued by picks his entire career, this is some bus driving. Yes, every thing that could be done to keep Vin out of high pressure situations was, but he responded by thowing the ball away when something wasn't there, by living to fight another drive. He did not let his ego make him force balls like he had previously been prone to.

Of course, it was a pretty good bus Vinnie drove with a double teamed Key catching 89 passes for 1150 yards, a 13.1 aver and 8 TDs and "slow" Wayne Chrebet making hay with 75 receptions for 1083, a 14.4 ave and 4 TDs, his career year. Keyshawn does this for his partner - free him up. He has to take full advantage. I really feel the heat is on Terry and/or AB as much as it is on Carter and Jones. Martin ran for 1287 yards on 369 carries for a 4.0 ave, and 8 TDs. His first year in NY was not his statistical best, but it was he made the play action possible which kept the defenses off balance.

Spreading the ball around as much as possible is essential. Ther are no Priest Holmes or Marvin Harrison numbers, but everyone looks good in it. And it's the "bus driver" who orchestrates it.

This is Parcells ball, and some find it boring, but in honesty, it is beautiful and even fascinating when it is well executed. It is a well oiled bus with enough big plays to delight, and which in reality, absolutely needs a QB who is not a super star, but a true leader.

PS love your posts, BF :)

[Doomsday101]

Obviously, you won't be. You've been crowing about how worthless Carter is the day you registered on the forums. Not getting the job done? You must have a short memory. Dallas started the first 3 games of 2003 with the #1 offense in the NFL, and by week 6 or so we were #2.

Week 1 vs. the Falcons, Carter put up 270 yards passing and the offense had 403.
Week 2 vs the Giants, 320 passing and again, 403 total yards. Criticizing the offense as "not getting it done" is hardly fair when they marched up and down the field on the NYG. We just couldn't stick it in the endzone, but that's ok when you kick 7 FGs. That's still putting points on the board. Against the jets, Vinny posted better numbers, but no TDs. Carter had a TD and only threw 23 passes total. Offense had over 360 total yards.

2 wins, 1 loss. That's a little better than "not getting it done". Our offense was fine. It didnt start really sliding until the Tampa game.

Yeah we also had the best running attack due to a couple of big runs at the start of the season but I sure as hell do not claim that Dallas had an outstanding running game. Look if you like Carter then fine I think he is a major waste of time and I'll say so. If you don't like that then to heck with you, I'm not hear to say the things you want to hear. So you keep on making your litttle lame excuses because I really do not pay much attention of anything you have to say because normally it is not worth reading to begin with.

[ChrisFul]

Yeah we also had the best running attack due to a couple of big runs at the start of the season but I sure as hell do not claim that Dallas had an outstanding running game. Look if you like Carter then fine I think he is a major waste of time and I'll say so. If you don't like that then to heck with you, I'm not hear to say the things you want to hear. So you keep on making your litttle lame excuses because I really do not pay much attention of anything you have to say because normally it is not worth reading to begin with.

Lame excuses? Those are NUMBERS.

You said "Our offense didnt get the job done early on".

FACTS say our offense was in the top 5 of the NFL until week 8 or 9.

Hm.

Your posts arent exactly chocked with insight, either. I can sum up all of them in one long sentence.

"I don't like Carter i think he sucks but maybe he will improve we will see but i won't hold my breath"

Thats basically it.

In what world does putting up nearly 400 yards of total offense, and winning 2 out of 3 resemble "Not getting it done"?

[Doomsday101]

Lame excuses? Those are NUMBERS.

You said "Our offense didnt get the job done early on".

FACTS say our offense was in the top 5 of the NFL until week 8 or 9.

Hm.

The offese was not scoring, yardage does not mean jack to me which is exactly what the offensive rating system is all about Yardage. Too often the defense gave the offense great field position only to see them end up with a FG. Carter did have a couple of good games along the way (Arz and Det) but problem is we play 16 not a couple. Again you like Carter or think he can become our QB then fine but after watching 3 years of this fool behind center I'm frankly sick of it and hope like hell someone step ups and takes the job away so that this team can work towards the future and stop spinning their wheels with this guy. last thing when does 400 yards mean something? when you start getting points based on yardag, other than that the simple fact is it is the offense job to put points on the board and the defenses job to not allow teams to put points on the board. Defense held their end of the deal up

[Bluefin]

I don't doubt have more of a supporting cast will help the QB but how much and while it is easy to lay it on the supporting cast Carter still has his own shortcoming that he needs to overcome if he is ever to be the longterm solution.

I don't know how much an improved supporting cast will help, but as long as it does help, Carter should have a chance to play better.

And please don't mistake my looking at other areas as laying all the blame on everyone but Carter.

TwoDeep3 does that.

Carter has room for improvement in every area and improve he must.

Getting more help in these other areas will simply make improving that much easier and eliminate what some like to dub as "excuses" for Carter.

Carter now has a possession receiver.

The offensive line should be better.

Julius Jones should pose more of a big play threat to defenses.

The defense looks poised to force more turnovers.

I hope the return game can't get any worse.

These are things that can help make Carter's job easier to perform.

I hope they happen because I want the team to succeed.


Myself I will not be suprised when Vinny takes that job from Carter.

I'm happy to have Vinny Testaverde.

A playoff contender needs two quarterbacks to protect themselves.

I don't believe Vinny was brought in to be the starter or that he could withstand a 16 game season without a stout running game, but he's a better option than what we had last year behind Carter.

I'm going to cheer for whoever winds up behind center, but I'll be very surprised if it isn't Carter barring injury.

[ChrisFul]

Look if you like Carter then fine I think he is a major waste of time and I'll say so. If you don't like that then to heck with you, I'm not hear to say the things you want to hear. So you keep on making your litttle lame excuses because I really do not pay much attention of anything you have to say because normally it is not worth reading to begin with.


Oooooooh, we have an e-thug! Internet tough guy alert! Hey, we better watch what we say from now on around here, Doomsday101 ain't taking no sh@t off anyone!

[Doomsday101]

Oooooooh, we have an e-thug! Internet tough guy alert! Hey, we better watch what we say from now on around here, Doomsday101 ain't taking no sh@t off anyone!

And how about you and your comments to others around here? How you take my comments as being a tough guy is beyond me. Because I'm not some sheep that is just going to follow others lead? give me a break. I'll speak my mine and if you don't like it then that is your problem not mine.

[ChrisFul]

And how about you and your comments to others around here? How you take my comments as being a tough guy is beyond me. Because I'm not some sheep that is just going to follow others lead? give me a break. I'll speak my mine and if you don't like it then that is your problem not mine.


Yes, yes, you'll speak your mind, and I can't stop you, and all that whatnot.

www.dictionary.com

[Bluefin]

The offese was not scoring, yardage does not mean jack to me which is exactly what the offensive rating system is all about Yardage. Too often the defense gave the offense great field position only to see them end up with a FG.
Dallas' offense scored 28 touchdowns last year with almost no running game and a defense that forced 25 turnovers.

Carolina's offense scored 28 touchdowns last year with a ground based ball control scheme like Parcells wanted and a defense that forced 26 turnovers.

New England's offense scored 32 touchdowns last year with almost no running game and a defense that was tied for second in the NFL with 41 turnovers.

Two of the three appeared in the Super Bowl.

The Cowboys were in the first year of a new offense under Parcells and there is obvious room for improvement in every area.

Getting more turnovers from the defense, imrpoved field position thanks to special teams, as well as more consistent running and passing from the offense and Dallas should be a contender, IMO.


Too often the defense gave the offense great field position only to see them end up with a FG.
I call BS.

Only 10 teams forced fewer turnovers than the Cowboys (25) and none of those units carried a number one yardage ranking like Dallas did.

Only one of those teams made the playoffs.

11 of the defenses forced turnovers came in two games (@ Det & @ Wash).

[Nightshade]

That is Bill's O in a nutshell. He requires a bus driver at QB, but one who can air it out when the defenses give the leeway. He also wants an underneath game that will take pressure off the deep receivers and the run game.

Vinnie was the consummate bus driver in NY in 98, the first and only year Bill coached him. (In 99 he missed all but the first few drives of the opener to injury, and by 2000, Al Groh had taken over for Tuna as the HC, Bill remaining for that year as GM).

These are bus driver Vinnie's annotated numbers in '98. I am rehashing it because I've seen no evidence to date this is NOT exactly the offensive game Bill still wants.


13 starts, 14 appearances.

Tuna benched Glenn Foley FAST after two losses in which it was evident the kid could not use his weapons to best advantage. Foley did not have to "stink" to lose his job. Tuna is actually more forgiving of a horrendous day by a QB with multi picks and considersssuch outings critical events in a QB's development. He is far less forgiving of mediocrity bringing down the talent of those around him. Folks tend to point to Q's picks as evidence of his futlity. Well, you CAN'T turn the ball over in a ball control offense. But once the weapons are in place, I think the main criteria will be how effectively they are utilized. If Terry or AB are waving their arms out there, open, and Q doesn't see them, well.....

421 attempts, 259 completions, 61.5% pass completion ave.

A pass completion of 60% is a given. You can't execute ball control just on a run game, and a pass game predicated on not getting into third and long scenarios. The underneath game is critical in Bill's O, not just the long ball. He expects YAC from the receivers, and decent timing on short routes, and the ability of the QB to shoot that rock out before the defenders have closed in on the receiver.

3256 yards, YPA 7.73, a long of 82

This is a play action centered offense, but the bus driver doesn't have to be Dan Marino. That 7.73 YPA is the key and last year's 6.54 will not get it done.

29 TDs, 7 picks

Keeping in mind this a a player who had been plagued by picks his entire career, this is some bus driving. Yes, every thing that could be done to keep Vin out of high pressure situations was, but he responded by thowing the ball away when something wasn't there, by living to fight another drive. He did not let his ego make him force balls like he had previously been prone to.

Of course, it was a pretty good bus Vinnie drove with a double teamed Key catching 89 passes for 1150 yards, a 13.1 aver and 8 TDs and "slow" Wayne Chrebet making hay with 75 receptions for 1083, a 14.4 ave and 4 TDs, his career year. Keyshawn does this for his partner - free him up. He has to take full advantage. I really feel the heat is on Terry and/or AB as much as it is on Carter and Jones. Martin ran for 1287 yards on 369 carries for a 4.0 ave, and 8 TDs. His first year in NY was not his statistical best, but it was he made the play action possible which kept the defenses off balance.

Spreading the ball around as much as possible is essential. Ther are no Priest Holmes or Marvin Harrison numbers, but everyone looks good in it. And it's the "bus driver" who orchestrates it.

This is Parcells ball, and some find it boring, but in honesty, it is beautiful and even fascinating when it is well executed. It is a well oiled bus with enough big plays to delight, and which in reality, absolutely needs a QB who is not a super star, but a true leader.

PS love your posts, BF :)

Wow, what a KICK A$$ post. :eek:

You just GOT to love this forum. Great opinions by so many of the members.
I just wish more of the people trolling would jump on in.

[LaTunaNostra]

You just GOT to love this forum. Great opinions by so many of the members.
I just wish more of the people trolling would jump on in.

Me too, Nightshade.

I see all these clever handles in the onlines and wonder what X or Z would have to say.

Personally, I'd shut up more, :rolleyes: if more folks chimed in. Writing non stop is great, but reading and learning even better.

Sometimes folks feel shy about jumping in.

I sure hope no one does here.

It's aaaaallll good....

later

[Sportsbabe]

[/QUOTE] So if QC was white, we could question his intelligence?[/QUOTE]

The point is that his intelligence wouldn't be questioned if he was white. Sure feel free to question any white QBs intelligence all you like. If that's what you need to do to strengthen your support or non-support for a QB. The truth is that it only becomes an issue when the QB is black. You never hear that criticism when speaking about white QBs. Heck, I've got to grab my abbacas to keep up with the number of times I've heard Henson described as smart and intelligence ... yeah but can he command the huddle, avoid the blitz and hold onto the football. Qunicy can do those things but he's not intelligent enough to hit the slant, score touchdowns in the red zone and resist the impulse to through into coverage :rolleyes: .

From sportscaster on down to message board experts intelligence is only used as a required skill when speaking about black QBs. You will see loads of fabricated examples now that it's been brought up in this thread, but the truth is the truth no matter how you dress it up, smack it & flip it.

In Bill We Trust

[BrAinPaiNt]

Wow, what a KICK A$$ post. :eek:

You just GOT to love this forum. Great opinions by so many of the members.
I just wish more of the people trolling would jump on in.


Stick around and watch the Lady work...sometimes I just sit back and smile.

[Sportsbabe]

Yes thats it!! thats it!! just throw up the race card amd watch the multitudes blindly follow a baseless charge!!!

I dont see too many people questioning the intelligence of

McNair
McNabb
Culpepper
Vick
Leftwich

You automatically assumed that questioning someones intelligence is playing the race card. Imagine that :rolleyes:

Rush Limbaugh took his jab at Donovan (how soon we forget). Culpepper is always described as athletic along with the rest. It doesn't take a rocket scientist. Just the mere opening of the eyes & mind. But as long as your above list keep doing what they're doing, it's all good. I'm loving it!!!

[Sportsbabe]

BTW, not stealing your thunder here Sportsbabe. Just a case of "been there, done that". :p

Thanks, I needed that. Let's me know that the facts have been presented and I can leave this issue alone. I just wanted to make my position known since I'm new to the board. I long ago stopped responding to QB threads. Who ever is behind center I am going to scream, shout & root just like always. I know BP is going to do what's best for the team.

[BrAinPaiNt]

] So if QC was white, we could question his The point is that his intelligence wouldn't be questioned if he was white. Sure feel free to question any white QBs intelligence all you like. If that's what you need to do to strengthen your support or non-support for a QB. The truth is that it only becomes an issue when the QB is black. You never hear that criticism when speaking about white QBs. Heck, I've got to grab my abbacas to keep up with the number of times I've heard Henson described as smart and intelligence ... yeah but can he command the huddle, avoid the blitz and hold onto the football. Qunicy can do those things but he's not intelligent enough to hit the slant, score touchdowns in the red zone and resist the impulse to through into coverage :rolleyes: .

From sportscaster on down to message board experts intelligence is only used as a required skill when speaking about black QBs. You will see loads of fabricated examples now that it's been brought up in this thread, but the truth is the truth no matter how you dress it up, smack it & flip it.

In Bill We Trust


I am curious if you ever questioned Ryan Leaf or Brian Griese's intelligence...or lack of Intelligence....how about Jeff George, Tim Couch, Todd Blackledge, Rick Mirer, David Klingler, Heath Schuler...just to name a few.

Or how about one of the QBs that was the start of the "Dumb" QBs...Terry Bradshaw...however to be fair here...Terry claims that he was referred to as a dumb QB because of some racisist view points where the steelers started Joe Gilliam and that the white qb (Bradshaw in this case) must be really dumb if they were going to start a black QB.....that was what Bradshaw said lead to him being known as a dumb QB....not sure if it is true or not but I seen him say that on an interview.

[Sportsbabe]

For a beautiful Woman who knows football too, Lady, Quincy got to go. He will have to move around. LOL

Yeah, that's what they all say. I've found that guys who say that are just talking smack. They fold just like Chutch under a LB Blitz when faced with the real thing ;)

[Sportsbabe]

Babe what a joke you really are,, are you really a fan


Are you addressing this post to me? I'm sure you enlightened me on something but after the 1st 3 sentences I came to the conclusion that nothing in your post had anything to do with anything I have previously posted. Then I got tired because your post is too much like work.

[Sportsbabe]

I am curious if you ever questioned Ryan Leaf or Brian Griese's intelligence...or lack of Intelligence....how about Jeff George, Tim Couch, Todd Blackledge, Rick Mirer, David Klingler, Heath Schuler...just to name a few.

That's not my thing. I have no desire to speak about a person's character or intellect. Never have never will. I want to know about their physical attributes and if they can get the team up and down the field into the end zone. Also, how good they look it a pair of football pants. Other than that, I have kno interest in character assassination :D

[LaTunaNostra]

I am curious if you ever questioned Ryan Leaf or Brian Griese's intelligence...or lack of Intelligence....how about Jeff George, Tim Couch, Todd Blackledge, Rick Mirer, David Klingler, Heath Schuler...just to name a few.

That's a nice string of flops, BP. But with black QBs, the criticism comes before the guy has a chance to show what he can do and continues long after he has or hasn't flopped. Some of it is fueled by the feeling a "running" QB is not cerebrally equipped to excel at passing. When an athlete can both run and pass, and is also white, a la Tarkenton, or Elway, it is an asset. Cunningham, a fine QB, was something else entirely. Vick, with all his exceptional ability, is being rated as a passer far below what his actual performance indicates. Some of this does not show itself in stats, but by WATCHING the amazing plays, and the speed with which he gets the ball out. He is far more accurate than his detractors enjoy claiming. But somehow this unusual ability is viewed as a form of "subtractive" athleticism.

Your list. Jeff George is universally known as an ego ridden head case, not a moron. Leaf as extremely immature, but to the very stupid end he was claimed to be "HIGHLY intelligent". ??? Couch's defense reading developmental curve has been critiqued enough by Browns fans, but I never saw it extended to discussion on his innate capacity to learn. I never heard or read it said of Blackridge, Klinger, or Schuler that they lacked intelligence. I am sure fans somewhere, sometime, referred to them as "'braindead", but the wider debate, to my knowledge, was not that they lacked the mental capabilites to master the position, or to be a leader. It was always "speed of game" issues.

Vinnie T was referred to once, cruelly, as "a million dollar arm with a ten cent head". This was when his TD:INT ratio was just brutal, when he tried to complete passes from his knees after bring knocked down. But the criticism, if unkind, was linked to debate about actual performance, and blessedly ended when he got his act together under Bill. There was no residual discourse about his lack of intelligence.
.

Mirer is a player I really have it in for. After what he did to the Jets and Bill in 99, his inadequacy, and the blasted WHINING he did in NY, and thereafter about that 'unfair' beastly Tuna. Mirer, that loser! I never liked him to begin with as he came from Notre Dame, and Mr. Genius Walsh trumpeted him like the second coming. But I flat out hated the crybaby when he blanked us over in NY. And yet, even tho he had hundreds of Jets fans wishing him literally and figuratively DEAD, I never once saw it suggested he lacked the gray matter to play pro QB. His own take was "I just never get to play in the right system", boo hoo. Hasn't he been in ALL of them by now?

Likewise, I never saw Hutch's "lack of pocket presence" attributed to anything other than a physically based learning curve. Even those who said Chad would "never get it" maintained his flaws were based on lack of fast physical response, not lack of fast enough mental processing.

Part of quarterback "I&I", instinct and intelligence, is sensing a rush, knowing what to do in such a split second situation, and making a sound decision with the ball. This is primarily a "mental" response, but needs lightening quick translation to physical action. Like throwing picks under pressure, it's about what the head hasn’t told the body to do fast enough, or do right. And this can and often DOES, improve with time. Yet in all the many many endless Hutch debates, I never once saw Chad's 'intelligence' questioned.


Or how about one of the QBs that was the start of the "Dumb" QBs...Terry Bradshaw...however to be fair here...Terry claims that he was referred to as a dumb QB because of some racisist view points where the steelers started Joe Gilliam and that the white qb (Bradshaw in this case) must be really dumb if they were going to start a black QB.....that was what Bradshaw said lead to him being known as a dumb QB....not sure if it is true or not but I seen him say that on an interview

Yes, sigh. That kind of closes the case. How dumb must a white QB be if a black one is smarter? Even the one example of the dumb white QB is put into perspective by the congenital inferiority of the black one.

I have heard Bradshaw speak out several times on how devastating he felt that unfair and totally wrong criticism to be. TB felt stigmatized by it, and he had to work very hard not to let it affect his game. Labels have that effect on folks. They can cause both debilitating and facilitating anxiety, but the scars seldom heal..

Bradshaw singled out Hollywood Henderson in one long TV segment once, forget exactly what HH said of Terry, but it was the classic case of the "pot calling the kettle black", and it stayed with TB long.

My personal definition of intelligence is the ability to lead an intelligent life, making more sound choices than dumbarse ones.. By that light, Bradshaw is a freaking genius (tho some of the choices on those ex-wives didn't strike me as his finest hour), and Henderson something considerably less. Had Quincy Carter reacted to Bill Parcells stern regime by sulking, pouting, more melting down and self-victimizing, I sure as shooting would consider him an idiot. But he reacted intelligently to the challenge, with hard work and dedication. He may never get his speed of game issues solved. Like Tim Couch is struggling to do, he may never get to the rare exceptionally fast processing of a successful NFL QB (these guys are indeed cognitively exceptional - just to have gotten as far as they have), but if he fails like so so many in the past have, it will not be because he lacks "mental capabilities".

It's a debate, a kind of discourse, our semantic choices, and ways to frame arguments that indicate we haven't come as far as we as a society like to think we have…it's usually covert, but there is most definitely a double standard "there".

As a fan I reserve the time honored right of calling any player, in the heat of battle, a dumbarse, imbecile, moron, nitwit, etc, names based referentially on lack of intelligence, but which in common use are no more critical of it as Bill Parcells yelling "throw it you stupid &^%$" at his QBs in practices.

The other debate, the serious one about what "mental capacity" is and how to assess it, I prefer to leave to that handful of cognitive and developmental psychologists who have made an impact in the field, none of whom I have yet seen on a sports board. :p

[LaTunaNostra]

Stick around and watch the Lady work...sometimes I just sit back and smile.
Ha, you're smiling at full fledged addiction, my friend.

Those novellas come at a price.

Last week I was b*tching and moaning about there not being any football news to discuss. My husband's rational response was that it shouldn't be too hard for you to stay off "that board" for a few weeks then?

I lasted three days.

I will be telepathing football posts from my grave via seances.

The next time I ask you to BAN me, lmao, please be the kind soul I know you to be and comply. :D

But football DOES rule, doesn't it?

[BHendri5]

Problem is even early on the offense was not getting the job done. We played the giants in week 2 our offense put up 1 TD that is it, week one aginst atlanta the offese looked poor and Carter only hit 47% of his passes, aginst the Jets Hambrick went over 100 yards and yes Vinny posted better numbers. I don't doubt have more of a supporting cast will help the QB but how much and while it is easy to lay it on the supporting cast Carter still has his own shortcoming that he needs to overcome if he is ever to be the longterm solution. Myself I will not be suprised when Vinny takes that job from Carter.

Recently I saw an article that had our offense at #15 after the season, by that accounting we still were in the top 20, the top 10, or 5 would have been better, but No worries it will be there this season.

[BrAinPaiNt]

That's not my thing. I have no desire to speak about a person's character or intellect. Never have never will. I want to know about their physical attributes and if they can get the team up and down the field into the end zone. Also, how good they look it a pair of football pants. Other than that, I have kno interest in character assassination :D


I personally have no problem looking into that type of thing...especially today as it seems that QB who is smart , yet may not have the great tools of some others, is the one that may help a team win a superbowl...especially in a ball control offense.

[jay cee]

Troy Aikman was a fairly gifted NFL Passer. I think he benefited alot from the Personell around him. He was QB that could make plays but I never felt he was the type of QB that could carry a team on his back.

I think Troy Aikman will get the Hall of Fame nod because of his performances in the Playoffs and his 3 Super Bowl Rings. If you compare Aikman's numbers to other Hall of Fame QB, especially the ones of his error (Favre, Young, etc etc), his numbers are not that great. I am not sure if Aikman is even in the Top 2 QBs in Cowboys history.

Aikman is FAR Greater than Carter, and it is pointless to argue that, but he wasn't the type of QB that could carry an entire team.

Of any of the big Weapons Dallas had, I feel Emmitt Smith was the most important.

- Mike G.


I have made similar points several times. And each time,, many of these guys reacted as if I said that Aikman was a bum.

[BHendri5]

Babe what a joke you really are,, are you really a fan

Heres how it is really going down and smart fans know this,unlike you!

First off carter will start the season no matter what, Vinnie and our future henson will not out preform him or really be given the chance to that extent,it's a coach confidence thing,he's earned the start of the season,and there will not be enough justification to put the 40 yr. old or the rookie in period!!!!!!!

Carter starts, now guess what, our schedule looks to be a 5-1 start. Carter will have plenty of confidence and our line/ running game will have a chance to gell and be much better than at the start of the season. Carter will also have a chance to get in sync with Key, that could also help his status.

These points that i've stated alone give give Carter the power to be the Dallas Cowboys Quarterback throughout the season. now add the fact that carter has worked hard and should natually progress to be more improved through coaching / job maturity he should have a fewer number of mistakes than last year, whether that is enough to get fans to rally behind him,my guess is a still luke warm feeling that is greatly helped by a winning record.

WOW!! you know what I totally forgot about our DEFENSE. A defense that is # 1 in the NFL that has upgraded by FA and experience ( with the slight chance of downplay at corner,I think at least same or better play( f23k Irving) than PI Edwards) . A defense that is Carters best friend, as allways,no exception this year. Eleven more men to help strengthen his position as starting QB.

We will win 10-11 games with the Q bank it baby... His percieved weaknesses will show themselves throughout the season ,and may actually cost him a benching this season,but I sort of dought it,mainly because Parcells dosent know if Carter can bounce back from a deserved benching.

Has Bill and JJ boxed themselves in a position to be forced to ride a QB that has 2 winning records in a row, and the answer is NO WAY Baby................That was` what our draft move was all about. We will have two first rounders and a second to strengthen our team weaknesses this year,and allow Bill to make a bold choice to move up Henson . Parcells will put the man that gives the Cowboys the best potential skills/ future the job next year and Carter will have to have a really exceptional year to stay the starter next year. i am assuming Henson has the skill to take the chance on,I think he probably does,and can excell next yr, ....Remember he has 11 good men in his corner too,and 2 first rounders!!!


That's whats really going on........................



bill knows




Now that was a JOKE!! LOL

[BrAinPaiNt]

That's a nice string of flops, BP. But with black QBs, the criticism comes before the guy has a chance to show what he can do and continues long after he has or hasn't flopped. Some of it is fueled by the feeling a "running" QB is not cerebrally equipped to excel at passing. When an athlete can both run and pass, and is also white, a la Tarkenton, or Elway, it is an asset. Cunningham, a fine QB, was something else entirely. Vick, with all his exceptional ability, is being rated as a passer far below what his actual performance indicates. Some of this does not show itself in stats, but by WATCHING the amazing plays, and the speed with which he gets the ball out. He is far more accurate than his detractors enjoy claiming. But somehow this unusual ability is viewed as a form of "subtractive" athleticism.

I was mostly playing devils advocate but at the same time we should stop and think...well others should stop and think....that if a player has the great tools yet can not get it done on the field (at QB)...then most will be labled a flop and just not have a head for the game.

One other thing can be considered...I really don't hear many (of course you will always have some) people question McNabbs and Vicks intelligence...Normally they question their accuracy.
Not too many people Dante Culpeppers intelligence...they question if he can hold onto the ball or not.

If there were two black QBs of late that do get questions (fair or not) of intelligence...I think it would be QC and Kordell Stewart.

I have also noticed something else the last couple of years....

Kyle Boller was pumped up not just because of his arm strength...but also because of his "mobility"....while Byron Leftwich had one main knock on him...the percieved lack of mobility.....in many ways this thought process kind of flew the opposite of those preconcieved notions that black QBs are just mobile athletic QBs while the white guys are just pocket passers.

I think some of those notions of steretypes are breakind down...however sad to say I am sure some will always have those things in their minds.





Likewise, I never saw Hutch's "lack of pocket presence" attributed to anything other than a physically based learning curve. Even those who said Chad would "never get it" maintained his flaws were based on lack of fast physical response, not lack of fast enough mental processing.

Oh I am not sure about that...I think it was a combo of people thinking he was just a big dumb jock who could not feel the pressure and when it was there he was not smart enough to hold onto the ball or get rid of it....hell the number of funny photoshops to make him look dumb are partial evidence of how some saw him.



Yes, sigh. That kind of closes the case. How dumb must a white QB be if a black one is smarter? Even the one example of the dumb white QB is put into perspective by the congenital inferiority of the black one.

I have heard Bradshaw speak out several times on how devastating he felt that unfair and totally wrong criticism to be. TB felt stigmatized by it, and he had to work very hard not to let it affect his game. Labels have that effect on folks. They can cause both debilitating and facilitating anxiety, but the scars seldom heal..

Bradshaw singled out Hollywood Henderson in one long TV segment once, forget exactly what HH said of Terry, but it was the classic case of the "pot calling the kettle black", and it stayed with TB long.

Yes Hollywood said that if you spot bradshaw the C and T he still could not spell cat.

Also what bradshaw said was that he felt bad for Joe because of the notions that came about were more of slap in the face of Joe then it was to him...because of the racial issue.

[BHendri5]

I have to disagree with you on this statement here:

Troy was able to slide and sidestep defenders in his early years, but was a sitting duck towards the end.

I have never ever seen Troy sidestep a defender, DEs would say in the huddle meet you at the QB because they knew Troy would be there, Just like you stated he stood tall in the pocket and waited for an option to come open. Dan Marino Would slide, sidestep and do those things in the pocket, and he had a quick release.

Troy did a heck of a job for the team with his style, much props to him.

[BHendri5]

Good coaching helped improve Aikman as a passer, but some quarterbacks come into the league possessing near flawless mechanics and throwing motions.

Aikman was such a case

I also believe that quarterbacks who have accuracy problems can improve if it is linked to their mechanics.

Carter is such a case.

Quincy has made tremendous strides as a passer since entering the league and there's no reason to think he's reached his ceiling in this area.

Last year in week one, Troy Aikman said that Carter was as good as most passers in the NFL when he knew where he wanted to go with the ball (which is why I want to see the running game keep the team in short yardage situations and limit what defenses can do).

Troy isn't one to hand out compliments to any Cowboy over the airwaves.

If the team continues to improve and defenses aren't able to sit back all the time in pass defense, I do believe Carter can play at a high level.

Plenty of it is on Carter, but there is also quite a few things the team can improve on to help carter play better


The stuff above that you posted is some good stuff, great points. There were times in Carter's rookie and his 2nd season, when posters would post about the ducks, I would post a response saying that the ducks were a result of Carter not being sure of where he wanted to throw the ball, or not sure of what he read in the defense, but when he was sure of his reads and confident his passes were some very pretty passes, you would see all the proper mechanics, you would see him step into his throws and his follow thru.

I also remember Troy saying that too. Yes, he can play at a high level and he will.

Great points

[BHendri5]

I think of anyone on this board, you are probably the last one that should question my intelligence.

I am not afraid of Carter, I was making a joke to try to point out how ridiculous your replies have been.

If becoming accurate is simply a matter of practicing, why hasn't Carter done it yet? In my mind, what could be more important that being able to get the ball to the receiver? If it is accurate, it will not be intercepted and will allow the receiver to run after the catch. To me, accuracy seems to be a very important trait for a QB. What good is a QB with a cannon arm, if he can't hit the broadside of a barn?


I'll question your intelligence all day everyday, because it is garbage. If you told me you played football I would bust out laughing.

You can hit the broadside of a barn, Heck my 2yr old can do that. You still did not tell me how many accurate QBs have won the SB. When you guys talk about aikman all the ammo you have is " Well he was accurate" or "he was the most accurate QB in the league" give it a break LOL.

Accuracy is not a God given talent, whether you think QC is accurate or not, that is your problem. I do not worry about whether he is accurate or not, as long as he can lead the team and we continue to win, games and SBs, he can throw the ball like he is cross eyed, Wins and Losses, Wins and Losses.

[blindzebra]

Dallas' offense scored 28 touchdowns last year with almost no running game and a defense that forced 25 turnovers.

Carolina's offense scored 28 touchdowns last year with a ground based ball control scheme like Parcells wanted and a defense that forced 26 turnovers.

New England's offense scored 32 touchdowns last year with almost no running game and a defense that was tied for second in the NFL with 41 turnovers.

Two of the three appeared in the Super Bowl.

The Cowboys were in the first year of a new offense under Parcells and there is obvious room for improvement in every area.

Getting more turnovers from the defense, imrpoved field position thanks to special teams, as well as more consistent running and passing from the offense and Dallas should be a contender, IMO.



I call BS.

Only 10 teams forced fewer turnovers than the Cowboys (25) and none of those units carried a number one yardage ranking like Dallas did.

Only one of those teams made the playoffs.

11 of the defenses forced turnovers came in two games (@ Det & @ Wash).

Dallas was 12th in the NFL in rushing.

Dallas 1999 yards, 3.9 YPC, 11 TDs.

CAR 2091 yards, 4.0 YPC, 9 TDs. The Panthers were 7th in the NFL.

Our rushing numbers and Carolina's are almost identical.


Parcells has been quoted in the Ask Coach Parcells from DCW saying, " The defense we played could not force a lot of turnovers and we could not be as aggressive because one big play could cost us the game."

Two things hurt the defense's turnover rating:

1. The offense. We could not take chances by blitzing every down, jumping routes, or going for the strip instead of the sure tackle because a TD could cost us the game. You mentioned Detroit and Washington and all the turnovers, well those were games that we built a lead and could turn the dogs loose. ;)

2. Pass rush. Pressure leads to turnovers without taking chances.

[BHendri5]

Troy Aikman was a fairly gifted NFL Passer. I think he benefited alot from the Personell around him. He was QB that could make plays but I never felt he was the type of QB that could carry a team on his back.

I think Troy Aikman will get the Hall of Fame nod because of his performances in the Playoffs and his 3 Super Bowl Rings. If you compare Aikman's numbers to other Hall of Fame QB, especially the ones of his error (Favre, Young, etc etc), his numbers are not that great. I am not sure if Aikman is even in the Top 2 QBs in Cowboys history.

Aikman is FAR Greater than Carter, and it is pointless to argue that, but he wasn't the type of QB that could carry an entire team.

Of any of the big Weapons Dallas had, I feel Emmitt Smith was the most important.

- Mike G.


ThankYOu, ThankYou very much. How many of those NFL camps do you think Troy attended while he was growing up?

[BHendri5]

I have made similar points several times. And each time,, many of these guys reacted as if I said that Aikman was a bum.


They always do, for some reason they think that if you do not bow down and speak of aikman in awe like tones, you disgrace him.

I always give his credit, he was great at what he was asked to do. some in here will swear he won those SBs by himself and made the other players better.

[LaTunaNostra]

I was mostly playing devils advocate but at the same time we should stop and think...well others should stop and think....that if a player has the great tools yet can not get it done on the field (at QB)...then most will be labled a flop and just not have a head for the game.

One other thing can be considered...I really don't hear many (of course you will always have some) people question McNabbs and Vicks intelligence...Normally they question their accuracy.
Not too many people Dante Culpeppers intelligence...they question if he can hold onto the ball or not.

If there were two black QBs of late that do get questions (fair or not) of intelligence...I think it would be QC and Kordell Stewart.

I have also noticed something else the last couple of years....

Kyle Boller was pumped up not just because of his arm strength...but also because of his "mobility"....while Byron Leftwich had one main knock on him...the percieved lack of mobility.....in many ways this thought process kind of flew the opposite of those preconcieved notions that black QBs are just mobile athletic QBs while the white guys are just pocket passers.

I think some of those notions of steretypes are breakind down...however sad to say I am sure some will always have those things in their minds.

I hear ya. QBs must have more mobility than in the past. The days of the statues in the pocket are dead. I think Tom Brady is the new prototype QB. A so called elite bus drive, who can hustle.


Oh I am not sure about that...I think it was a combo of people thinking he was just a big dumb jock who could not feel the pressure and when it was there he was not smart enough to hold onto the ball or get rid of it....hell the number of funny photoshops to make him look dumb are partial evidence of how some saw him.

I felt if Chad hadn't been a Stanford grad, folks wouldn't have taken that risk of making him "look" dumb. It's when there is confidence enough in something that humour can kick in successfully, and not be 'threatening.' The Hutchs at MacDonalds stuff didn''t come across as a critique of his brains, but as a spin on the old "you'll be flipping burgers because you're no pro football player" smack.
I never saw any of the big dumb jock take on Hutch. Not doubting it was out there, but I missed it.

Another example of how humour has to come from sterngth to work is Mike Winicki's current cute sig pic. Last summer, when Carter was so beleagured and expected by almost everyone to lose out to Hutch, that pic would not have made me laugh. It would have come across as mean spirited. This year, I can find it hilarious. This year, pics of Hutch flipping burgers would tick me off bigtime. It's our uniquely American brand of humour - we laugh at successes, not failures. Top cats, not underdogs:p

Yes Hollywood said that if you spot bradshaw the C and T he still could not spell cat.

Also what bradshaw said was that he felt bad for Joe because of the notions that came about were more of slap in the face of Joe then it was to him...because of the racial issue.


Thanks, that was it. C-A-T. lol

BP, I do a lot of defending of Carter, both directly and in peripheral issues like the one in this thread. And intend to continue doing so. But I really haven't glommed onto him as a favorite. I don't have any of the speical love I had and stlil hold for Vinnie, or Ray Lucas, or Terry, and which I have developed for some Cowboys as diverse in talent as Woody and Matt. Greg Ellis has also become dear to me.

I support Q because

1. He's (at least for now) BILL'S BOY. If Tuna put a three legged armadillo behind center, I'd root it on.

2. He's currently the best chance for success. Might not be in Sept. Might not be in Dec. but he is now.

3. I think he's got some intriguing talent. Unlike those who grit their teeth and feel the knot in their tummy whenever Q lofts one, I have a fair expectation of something GOOD happening. First time I saw him I thought "Jake Plummer type". "Bill's caught himself a live one, let's see how it plays out."

4. And finally, the Dale Hanson defense once again. For me, it has become about a certain segment of Carter's detractors as well. And I think there is a widespread double standard existing for him, beyond the extremists. He was not ready in 01, and it is not on him he was inserted too soon.

But I won't be losing any sleep if this doesn't play out that Q stays in Dallas as the starter for the next decade. If an Emmitt Smith can't retire from his team, who can expect to do so? If Carter plays fairly well this year, and then is allowed to go in order to play Henson, so be it. He will have done well enough to start or at least back up on some NFL team, and how many young men have gotten so far. He, like all of them, is living the dream. I save my compassion for players cut down with injuries in their early years, with all their hopes crushed forever. Or for the Pat Tillmans of this world.

I'm not so tied up with Quincy, he has to be the starter. It's not a "I must be right at all costs" thing. I will wish him luck whatever he does, wherever he plays, and root him on, but he has not become 'special' to me, so I have no emotional investment. He hasn't the skill, level of raw talent, underdog status based on lack of god given talent but tremendous drive, personality, sad past, or notable Parcells Guy heart for me to really identify with him. If Vinnie starts over Quincy, I won't be crying on it. In fact, part of me would love to see a last hurrah for Testaverde.


But for how he keeps things poppin' around Cowboys land, I salute him,

[blindzebra]

I'll question your intelligence all day everyday, because it is garbage. If you told me you played football I would bust out laughing.

You can hit the broadside of a barn, Heck my 2yr old can do that. You still did not tell me how many accurate QBs have won the SB. When you guys talk about aikman all the ammo you have is " Well he was accurate" or "he was the most accurate QB in the league" give it a break LOL.

Accuracy is not a God given talent, whether you think QC is accurate or not, that is your problem. I do not worry about whether he is accurate or not, as long as he can lead the team and we continue to win, games and SBs, he can throw the ball like he is cross eyed, Wins and Losses, Wins and Losses.

Since 1992:

Aikman 3 SBs, Young, Farve, Elway 2 SBs, Warner, Brady 2 SBs, and Johnson.

[BHendri5]

Since 1992:

Aikman 3 SBs, Young, Farve, Elway 2 SBs, Warner, Brady 2 SBs, and Johnson.

7, that is it? 7 you're telling me out of 39 SBs only 7? Really 6, because Favre evolved into a somewhat accurate passer, he was not that in the beginning and he really is not a QB they bring up when they talk about accurate QBs.

Anyway, good Job.

[jay cee]

Since 1992:

Aikman 3 SBs, Young, Farve, Elway 2 SBs, Warner, Brady 2 SBs, and Johnson.

I would take Young, Farve, Elway and Brady over Aikman. Aikman has more superbowl rings than those guys because he played on a better team. That does not mean he was the better qb.


edit: Sorry BZ, I stuck my nose in before I understood what you were discussing.

In the words of Rosanne Rosanna Danna....."Never Mind".

[blindzebra]

7, that is it? 7 you're telling me out of 39 SBs only 7? Really 6, because Favre evolved into a somewhat accurate passer, he was not that in the beginning and he really is not a QB they bring up when they talk about accurate QBs.

Anyway, good Job.

No I'm saying 11 out of the last 12 were won by accurate QBs. Going back to the first Super Bowl would just further disprove your ridiculous argument.

Pulled a Ben Stiller on FAVRE, there. :D

FYI, Favre's comp % DROPPED to 59.9% the year GB won the Super Bowl. He was ALWAYS accurate, his problem early was trying to show how accurate and strong his arm was and that led to INTs.

[BrAinPaiNt]

I hear ya. QBs must have more mobility than in the past. The days of the statues in the pocket are dead. I think Tom Brady is the new prototype QB. A so called elite bus drive, who can hustle.

I think so as well...with the way defenses have came around so fast...you have to have a guy that can make quick decisions or be very mobile...if you got one that can do both then you have struck gold....and please note that the number of Top Franchise (Gold) QBs in the league seems to shrink every few years.




I felt if Chad hadn't been a Stanford grad, folks wouldn't have taken that risk of making him "look" dumb. It's when there is confidence enough in something that humour can kick in successfully, and not be 'threatening.' The Hutchs at MacDonalds stuff didn''t come across as a critique of his brains, but as a spin on the old "you'll be flipping burgers because you're no pro football player" smack.
I never saw any of the big dumb jock take on Hutch. Not doubting it was out there, but I missed it.

Remind me later (I am at work now) and I will post my infamous ChadBlade pic...if that does not make you laugh...then something is wrong. :D

Another example of how humour has to come from sterngth to work is Mike Winicki's current cute sig pic. Last summer, when Carter was so beleagured and expected by almost everyone to lose out to Hutch, that pic would not have made me laugh. It would have come across as mean spirited. This year, I can find it hilarious. This year, pics of Hutch flipping burgers would tick me off bigtime. It's our uniquely American brand of humour - we laugh at successes, not failures. Top cats, not underdogs:p

You know maybe you were not around for all of it...but you would be shocked at the number of photoshops made at Hutch's expense and how FEW have been made at QCs....which is really quite shocking considering the number of people who bag on QC.






4. And finally, the Dale Hanson defense once again. For me, it has become about a certain segment of Carter's detractors as well. And I think there is a widespread double standard existing for him, beyond the extremists. He was not ready in 01, and it is not on him he was inserted too soon.

I do get tired of the extremist...on both sides of the spectrum....You are more of the positive for QC (but not extreme) and I am more of the skeptic (but not extreme)....but the extremist on both sides just wear me out.....I have seen some that will bite their nose off just to spite their face to push their agenda:eek

But I won't be losing any sleep if this doesn't play out that Q stays in Dallas as the starter for the next decade. If an Emmitt Smith can't retire from his team, who can expect to do so? If Carter plays fairly well this year, and then is allowed to go in order to play Henson, so be it. He will have done well enough to start or at least back up on some NFL team, and how many young men have gotten so far. He, like all of them, is living the dream. I save my compassion for players cut down with injuries in their early years, with all their hopes crushed forever. Or for the Pat Tillmans of this world.

I tell you the truth...I want the best for the boys...if QC steps up this year and leaves no question that he is the answer...then Cool because it really takes away from the learning process of any other QB that we tab as "Next" even if it is a pro...they still have to be brought in or learn the system and chemistry with the players.

However if QC is found to not be the answer...then let's move forward and find the "Next" one.

Once thing I do NOT want to happen...is for QC to be so so this year..I want an answer to this situation THIS year and no inbetweens.




But for how he keeps things poppin' around Cowboys land, I salute him,

The activity I can salute him for...but because of the extremist that he has brought out due to his name and play....Well I want to kick him in the crotch.

[Sportsbabe]

My husband's rational response was that it shouldn't be too hard for you to stay off "that board" for a few weeks then?

You're a fellow female !!!!! Next time, give a sister a clue ;)

How many of us are there?

[BrAinPaiNt]

http://webpages.charter.net/brainpaint/Chadblade.jpg

Here is that pic

[BrAinPaiNt]

You're a fellow female !!!!! Next time, give a sister a clue ;)

How many of us are there?


You
LaTunaNostra
BrownSugar
Cowgirl
Gatorgirl

I have not seen the last two post in a long time.

[Hostile]

You
LaTunaNostra
BrownSugar
Cowgirl
Gatorgirl

I have not seen the last two post in a long time.
Candy from extremeskins.com too.

[Hollywood Henderson]

Its not a question of if, but when Carter is replaced...The sooner the better for us Cowboy fans as he can't hit wide open receivers with any consistancy...

[BHendri5]

No I'm saying 11 out of the last 12 were won by accurate QBs. Going back to the first Super Bowl would just further disprove your ridiculous argument.

Pulled a Ben Stiller on FAVRE, there. :D

FYI, Favre's comp % DROPPED to 59.9% the year GB won the Super Bowl. He was ALWAYS accurate, his problem early was trying to show how accurate and strong his arm was and that led to INTs.


The reason you didn't, because no one kept any stats or records back then talking about accuracy. NO, you listed 7 QBs. The question was how many QUARTERBACKS, not how many times they won the SBs.

You made yourself look ridiculous, no stupid. and iuf you were to try and go back and start at the begining, you would be worse than JIm Carey in his Dumb and Dumber movie.

QBs, before the 90s began played ball they won and they lead, some could not even make on an accuracy chart, but they won.

Give it up. NO I'm done with you on this subject, find another one. If you can

[BHendri5]

Yeah right? And Saddam is the president of the U.S.

[Maikeru-sama]

CowboyInIraq, im interested to know how you see things ending up this year?

Your thoughts on the Offensive Line and the Defensive Line.

Also, how do you see Pete Hunter turning out?

- Mike G.

[blindzebra]

The reason you didn't, because no one kept any stats or records back then talking about accuracy. NO, you listed 7 QBs. The question was how many QUARTERBACKS, not how many times they won the SBs.

You made yourself look ridiculous, no stupid. and iuf you were to try and go back and start at the begining, you would be worse than JIm Carey in his Dumb and Dumber movie.

QBs, before the 90s began played ball they won and they lead, some could not even make on an accuracy chart, but they won.

Give it up. NO I'm done with you on this subject, find another one. If you can

They most certainly did keep stats, it's called completion percentage. Your complete lack of knowledge is only matched by your over-developed arrogance.

I guess Montana was not accurate? I guess when Simms completed 90% in that Super Bowl he was not accurate?

[MichaelWinicki]

They most certainly did keep stats, it's called completion percentage. Your complete lack of knowledge is only matched by your over-developed arrogance.

I guess Montana was not accurate? I guess when Simms completed 90% in that Super Bowl he was not accurate?


Blind-- I applaud your efforts to have a conversation based on logic. But I think in the end your attempt will be thwarted.

[BHendri5]

CowboyInIraq, im interested to know how you see things ending up this year?

Your thoughts on the Offensive Line and the Defensive Line.

Also, how do you see Pete Hunter turning out?

- Mike G.

I have them finishing up regular season nothing less than an 11-5 record, 12-4 is what I originally picked for them.

They have a year under their belt in the new offense, they far exceeded what the so called experts predicted, and myself as well (I had them picked to go 8-8, last season). Of course I had them going 8-8 in 2002, until Jones let colset sabotage the season, for chutch.

The OL, they now know what to expect from Parcells and he knows now what each guy can and cannot do, he will demand more from them this season, as he did not expect to go 10-6 last season either, as we all know.

The team has confidence and they will want to build on what they started last season, you have Vets on the team that will, also drive, push and demand nothing less than 10-6, Heck they will nto settle for a repeat of that record. If by chance they do go 10-6 again, the team will be stronger than that record. If the Defense repeats as the number one defense again, this season it will be a legit ranking, not just by stats(as stats do not tell the whole story, contrary to what some in here believe).

The OL will be legit, this season and I have a feeling we will see that right off the bat.

Hunter, I cannot call it right now, I have to see him. Being that I am in IRAQ now, and will miss all the TC highlights and preseason games, I will have to take the word of you Ladytuna, and some others.

But for the last 2 seasons, Hunter moves and plays like a Safety, some guys cannot make that mental switch when they are young, Safety to CB, it's a mental thing. But going vice versa is not that hard.
Woodson made the switch from LB to SS which is not that hard because the SS is big in run support so he is still close to the LOS. Roy gets caught up sometime and forgets that he is the FS and not the SS.
Hunter has all the physical ability, it is the mental part that he has had to master.


How do you think they will do?

[Cheap Shot Artist]

How come Quincy hasn't figured it out then yet?

Because last year was his "rookie" year!!

[BHendri5]

They most certainly did keep stats, it's called completion percentage. Your complete lack of knowledge is only matched by your over-developed arrogance.

I guess Montana was not accurate? I guess when Simms completed 90% in that Super Bowl he was not accurate?


Well, Hell, find me the other Accurate QBs that won the SBs, MR Astronaut. LOL

You are by your account the football encyclopedia. Montana? Dawg, come on, you twist more than a tornado, you and your fellow atronaut comrades LOL.

Montana, You can be accurate in the WCO, this conversation was talked about not too long ago wasn't it.

Get your head up out of your U know what.

[BHendri5]

Blind-- I applaud your efforts to have a conversation based on logic. But I think in the end your attempt will be thwarted.


Mike, if you call his efforts logic, then you are up there on Jupiter with him.
That cat is, man all he is is a pop top from a sixpack. He needs to find the can that his top belongs to and the other 5 beers.

[MichaelWinicki]

Because last year was his "rookie" year!!


Does that mean Quincy this year becomes a ... "Super Rookie"!

[blindzebra]

Well, Hell, find me the other Accurate QBs that won the SBs, MR Astronaut. LOL

You are by your account the football encyclopedia. Montana? Dawg, come on, you twist more than a tornado, you and you fella atronaut comrades LOL.

Montana, You can be accurate in the WCO, this conversation was talked about not too long ago wasn't it.

Get your head up out of your U know what.

Well since you know so much, which INACCURATE QBs won Super Bowls?

You love making these claims, but you NEVER back them up with ANYTHING but your own opinion. So it's put up or shut up time.

[blindzebra]

Mike, if you call his efforts logic, then you are up there on Jupiter with him.
That cat is, man all he is is a pop top from a sixpack. He needs to find the can that his top belongs to and the other 5 beers.

Funny how he runs for putdowns when you blow up his lame argument. :rolleyes:

[MichaelWinicki]

Well since you know so much, which INACCURATE QBs won Super Bowls?

You love making these claims, but you NEVER back them up with ANYTHING but your own opinion. So it's put up or shut up time.


Blind, this is going to end up like the "Newman" argument. CNI will make a claim without having the slightest shred of evidence to back it up.

[blindzebra]

Blind, this is going to end up like the "Newman" argument. CNI will make a claim without having the slightest shred of evidence to back it up.

I know, I just can't help myself. I have to refute nonsense when I see it. :D

[Cheap Shot Artist]

Does that mean Quincy this year becomes a ... "Super Rookie"!

Only if he gets every single rep in camp...and I mean not even 1 for Vinny and Drew

Then he has to get every rep in the regular season so his Fanatics can give him full credit for the season.

The loopholes and excuses QC and his fanbase have is unparalleled

[BHendri5]

Blind, this is going to end up like the "Newman" argument. CNI will make a claim without having the slightest shred of evidence to back it up.


I do not need any any evidence, Dawg. I'm not caught up into stats like you and the some others. I do not need stats to justify my arguments, I look at the play on the field. You either win or you lose, by the play on the field. Have you ever noticed how a QB can have excellent game stats and they got blown out, or horrible stats and they blow a team out?

You guys, have no arguments, that is why you run and pull stats like they are some kind of shield.

[blindzebra]

I do not need any any evidence, Dawg. I'm not caught up into stats like you and the some others. I do not need stats to justify my arguments, I look at the play on the field. You either win or you lose, by the play on the field. Have you ever noticed how a QB can have excellent game stats and they got blown out, or horrible stats and they blow a team out?

You guys, have no arguments, that is why you run and pull stats like they are some kind of shield.

Nonsense.

Show us a game where a QB threw for 400 yards and 4 TDs and got blown out.

Show us a game where a QB had 50 yards and 4 INTs and his team blew out the other team.

Stats don't tell the whole story, but it is no coincidence that someone that makes ridiculous comments would go to any extreme to down play stats.

Why? Because stats blow up every one of your arguments.

[Cheap Shot Artist]

I do not need any any evidence, Dawg. I'm not caught up into stats like you and the some others. I do not need stats to justify my arguments, I look at the play on the field. You either win or you lose, by the play on the field. Have you ever noticed how a QB can have excellent game stats and they got blown out, or horrible stats and they blow a team out?

You guys, have no arguments, that is why you run and pull stats like they are some kind of shield.

Michael Winicki, just give it up man..its a team game

We all know QC, Mario Edwards, Hambrick, and Ekuban had just as much to do with our 10-6 record as Glover, Roy, Dat Nguyen, Newman, Flozell Adams and Richie Anderson....

All players, to paraphrase CowboyIraq on QC can aspire to great heights with hard work and dedication..

God Given ability is just way overated

So if Randal Williams works hard enough, he will become the next Jerry Rice with Randy Moss speed

Torrin Tucker will become the next Erik Williams.

so forth and so on

[MichaelWinicki]

I do not need any any evidence, Dawg. I'm not caught up into stats like you and the some others. I do not need stats to justify my arguments, I look at the play on the field. You either win or you lose, by the play on the field. Have you ever noticed how a QB can have excellent game stats and they got blown out, or horrible stats and they blow a team out?

You guys, have no arguments, that is why you run and pull stats like they are some kind of shield.


CNI, Its stats that are used as the measuring stick for everything from your class rank to accuracy out on the shooting range. Without stats you are left with people's opinions. And if you were to ask me what's more valid, I would have to go with "stats" almost every single time.

[BHendri5]

CNI, Its stats that are used as the measuring stick for everything from your class rank to accuracy out on the shooting range. Without stats you are left with people's opinions. And if you were to ask me what's more valid, I would have to go with "stats" almost every single time.

Really, on our shooting range? We go by results. We have to requalify all the time on the range, I had to do it again before I got deployed if I had failed I would have been pulled. they did not come to me and say by these stats you should be shooting this or that

[Cheap Shot Artist]

CNI, Its stats that are used as the measuring stick for everything from your class rank to accuracy out on the shooting range. Without stats you are left with people's opinions. And if you were to ask me what's more valid, I would have to go with "stats" almost every single time.

Very nice Mike..

CI, you are over there fighting for our country...Using Mike Winicki's anology, lets say you are in a foxhole and are under heavy fire...

You have a guy in a remote location who has one chance to take out an enemy cluster..

Now, to have a guy take this shot, would you rather have a guy who has practiced like hell but just isnt all that good and really struggles in a combat situation to take the shot, or someone who is just naturally better?

With your life on the line....

[BHendri5]

Nonsense.

Show us a game where a QB threw for 400 yards and 4 TDs and got blown out.

Show us a game where a QB had 50 yards and 4 INTs and his team blew out the other team.

Stats don't tell the whole story, but it is no coincidence that someone that makes ridiculous comments would go to any extreme to down play stats.

Why? Because stats blow up every one of your arguments.


What???? 400yds huh. LOL just like you. How about 300 or some, and the team still lost.

Ask Favre, Ask Warner to name two of this era

[blindzebra]

Really, on our shooting range? We go by results. We have to requalify all the time on the range, I had to do it again before I got deployed if I had failed I would have been pulled. they did not come to me and say by these stats you should be shooting this or that

What results are those?

I believe you get ranked by how many hits, correct?

Those be stats.

CNI argument, "I hit the target all the time, just ask me." Followed by, "What do you mean I have to shoot at the target and get X amount of hits, don't you know stats don't matter?"

[blindzebra]

What???? 400yds huh. LOL just like you. How about 300 or some, and the team still lost.

Ask Favre, Ask Warner to name two of this era

You said, "BLOWN OUT."

Now it's just lost, just like you. You set up the guide lines, we blow up your argument and PRESTO, the guide lines change.

Funny how that keeps happening.

[Cheap Shot Artist]

You said, "BLOWN OUT."

Now it's just lost, just like you. You set up the guide lines, we blow up your argument and PRESTO, the guide lines change.

Funny how that keeps happening.

Bill Clinton-esque....

[LaTunaNostra]

The activity I can salute him for...but because of the extremist that he has brought out due to his name and play....Well I want to kick him in the crotch.

Well kick him twice, BP, because this place is ROCKIN today.

For a 7 PM EST on maybe the most boring week of football in every year, mid July doldrums, there sure are a lot of users on board. :p

We should be BREAKING RECORDS on July 31, baby!!!

[BHendri5]

What results are those?

I believe you get ranked by how many hits, correct?

Those be stats.

CNI argument, "I hit the target all the time, just ask me." Followed by, "What do you mean I have to shoot at the target and get X amount of hits, don't you know stats don't matter?"


They do not rank us, they give us a certain amount of ammo, Yes you have to hit the target a certain amount of time to be qualified, but we do not get ranked, they do not throw around percentages, or keep stats.

No, we do not have people come to us and say, Okay you have been in the military this long you should be shooting with this amount of accuracy, NO they do not do that.

Maybe in the Marines, Maybe the infantry in the Army, but not in the Air Force, especially in a Medical Evacuation Squadron.

[BHendri5]

You said, "BLOWN OUT."

Now it's just lost, just like you. You set up the guide lines, we blow up your argument and PRESTO, the guide lines change.

Funny how that keeps happening.

Yes, I did. Blown out it has happened before. Oh, just like me huh. LOL
well MR. 400yds tosser outer, I got it from you and your buddies. LOL

[blindzebra]

Yes, I did. Blown out it has happened before. Oh, just like me huh. LOL
well MR. 400yds tosser outer, I got it from you and your buddies. LOL

Nope, you got it from yourself! :D

[junk]

I'll question your intelligence all day everyday, because it is garbage. If you told me you played football I would bust out laughing..

You shouldn't, your posts read like something a third grader would write. And its not garbage, its junk. :D

Hold your sides because I have played football and I always preferred a QB who get accurately get the ball to his receivers as opposed to one who tossed it wherever. For some reason, this seemed to result in a lot of interceptions.


You can hit the broadside of a barn, Heck my 2yr old can do that. You still did not tell me how many accurate QBs have won the SB. When you guys talk about aikman all the ammo you have is " Well he was accurate" or "he was the most accurate QB in the league" give it a break LOL.


You never asked me this. You asked someone else and I think the question was more along the lines of "There have been 39 SuperBowls played, Do you know HOW many QBs has lead their teams to victory and without being as accurate as aikman."

I think that is supposed to be a question and I interpret it to mean "How many QBs have led their team to victory without being as accurate as Aikman?"

In that season? In that game? Career? Not many have been as accurate as Aikman, that is what makes him one of the greats. Did he have help from others? Of course. It took an exceptionally strong supporting cast to get Elway a Super Bowl too. Marino never got one, in part because he never had that great of a supporting cast. It takes a great team to win a Super Bowl. My point was that Aikman was a BIG part of those Super Bowl wins. He played well. He had a great career and to try to say that Jim Zorn, Steve Grogan and Quincy Carter are better QBs is borderline lunacy.


Accuracy is not a God given talent, whether you think QC is accurate or not, that is your problem. I do not worry about whether he is accurate or not, as long as he can lead the team and we continue to win, games and SBs, he can throw the ball like he is cross eyed, Wins and Losses, Wins and Losses.

Accuracy is a talent you can be born with. Just like any other skill, some are better than others. No matter how much you practice, I bet you couldn't beat Lance Armstrong in a bike race, Wayne Gretzky in a hockey game or Troy Aikman in a throwing contest (although I won't be surprised if you claim you can :rolleyes: ) Its also something you can improve, but some are just better than others.

Finally, I know you hate stats since they usually prove you wrong, but I thought I would point out a few others. Your biggest beef against Aikman seems to be that he was just there and his teammates carried him along.

1992 -- Passing Yds - 3597
Rushing Yds - 2121
Total Yds - 5718

Aikman threw for 3445 yards or approximately 60% of the offensive yards.
Emmitt rushed for 1713 yards and received for 335 yards or approximately 29% of the offensive yards.
Irvin received for 1396 yards or approximately 36% of the offensive yards.

He also accounted for 24 touchdowns as opposed to 19 for Emmitt(one was a pass) and 7 for Irvin.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1992.htm

1993 -- Passing Yds - 3617 Yds
Rushing Yds - 2161 Yds
Total Yds - 5778 Yds

Aikman threw for 3100 yds or approximately 54% of the offensive yards.
Emmitt rushed for 1486 yards and received for 414 yards for 1900 yards or approximately 33% of the offensive yards.
Irvin received for 1330 yards or approximately 23% of the offensive yards.

Aikman accounted for 15 TDs, Emmitt accounted for 10 and Irvin accounted for 7.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1993.htm

1995 -- Passing Yds - 3741 Yards
Rushing Yds - 2201 Yards
Total Yds - 5942 Yards

Aikman threw for 3304 Yards or approximately 55% of the offensive yards.
Emmitt rushed for 1773 and received for 375 yards for approximately 35% of the offensive yards.
Irvin received for 1603 Yards or approximately 27% of the team's offensive yards.

Aikman accounted for 17 TDs, Emmitt accounted for 25 and Irvin accounted for 10.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1995.htm

So, although you claim otherwise, the bulk of the offense was run through Troy Aikman. He didn't just hand off to Emmitt all the time. If you compare his total yardage each year with Irvin's, you will notice that Aikman also spread the ball around quite nicely.

I noticed in some earlier posts of this thread you seemed to ease a bit on your position on Aikman. I will readily agree that he is not the best QB of all time. He was, however, very good. Yes, he was a system QB, again, most good ones are. Yes, he took a back seat to some other terrific players in Emmitt and Irvin. Did he struggle without a supporting cast? Sure, so did others. That is one of the biggest excuses I hear for QC, why doesn't it work for Aikman?

Bottom line, he was good and I find it highly unlikely that Dallas would have won three Super Bowls without a QB of his caliber on the field.

[junk]

They do not rank us, they give us a certain amount of ammo, Yes you have to hit the target a certain amount of time to be qualified, but we do not get ranked, they do not throw around percentages, or keep stats.

No, we do not have people come to us and say, Okay you have been in the military this long you should be shooting with this amount of accuracy, NO they do not do that.

Maybe in the Marines, Maybe the infantry in the Army, but not in the Air Force, especially in a Medical Evacuation Squadron.

Uh, being able to hit a the target a certain amount of times with a certain amount of ammo means that you have to hit the target a certain percentage of the time. Or, in other words, accuracy.

[Cheap Shot Artist]

Uh, being able to hit a the target a certain amount of times with a certain amount of ammo means that you have to hit the target a certain percentage of the time. Or, in other words, accuracy.


MikeD17 and CowboynIraq are separated @ birth

[BHendri5]

Uh, being able to hit a the target a certain amount of times with a certain amount of ammo means that you have to hit the target a certain percentage of the time. Or, in other words, accuracy.

Stay out of this Junk, I'm picking at BZ right now. You helped me stay awake last night.

[junk]

Stay out of this Junk, I'm picking at BZ right now. You helped me stay awake last night.

Sorry. I didn't mean to make a valid point and distract you. :D

[DallasEast]

What???? 400yds huh. LOL just like you. How about 300 or some, and the team still lost.

Ask Favre, Ask Warner to name two of this eraOnly the top 24 total yardage passers who started 10 or more games during 2003 were included. If anyone wants more quarterbacks included in the data, go for it.

Team Opp Margin of
QB GAMEDATE YDS W/L Points Points Victory/Defeat

Ramsey 9/14 356 W 33 31 2
9/21 348 L 21 24 -3

McNair 10/12 421 W 38 17 21
10/5 360 L 30 38 -8

Mcnabb 11/16 314 W 28 10 18
11/2 312 W 23 16 7

Manning 9/28 314 W 55 21 34
11/16 401 W 38 31 7
10/6 386 W 38 35 3
11/9 347 L 23 28 -5

Maddox 11/30 313 L 20 24 -4
11/17 327 L 14 30 -16
9/28 332 L 13 30 -17
9/14 336 L 20 41 -21

Leftwich 10/5 336 W 27 21 6

Kitna 9/14 303 L 20 23 -3

Johnson 12/20 346 L 28 30 -2
9/14 339 L 9 12 -3
10/6 318 L 35 38 -3
11/2 323 L 14 17 -3

Hasselbeck 11/30 328 W 34 7 27
12/27 315 W 24 17 7
10/26 344 L 24 27 -3
11/23 333 L 41 44 -3

Green 12/14 341 W 45 17 28
11/9 368 W 41 20 21
10/12 400 W 40 34 6
11/16 313 L 19 24 -5
12/7 397 L 27 45 -18

Garcia 12/14 344 L 38 41 -3

Favre 12/22 399 W 41 7 34

Delhomme 11/16 317 W 20 17 3
10/19 362 L 17 37 -20

Culpepper 11/16 396 L 18 28 -10
11/9 370 L 28 42 -14
11/30 330 L 17 48 -31

Collins 10/26 375 W 29 17 12
11/2 303 W 31 28 3
10/12 314 L 6 17 -11

Carter 9/15 321 W 35 32 3

Bulger 10/13 352 W 36 0 36
10/26 375 W 33 21 12
11/23 329 W 30 27 3
11/2 378 L 10 30 -20

Brooks 10/19 352 W 45 17 28

Brady 11/3 350 W 30 26 4
11/23 368 W 23 20 3

Bledsoe 9/14 314 W 38 17 21

Blake 11/9 307 L 15 28 -13
9/7 363 L 24 42 -18

[Maikeru-sama]

CowboyInIraq, my expectations are not as high as your, even though you made some very excellent points.

I think the Offensive Line will continue its role as the "Bane" of the team. I see at least 2 Rookies on the Offensive Line. Rumor has it that Rogers has had a little trouble making the switch, but it is too early to start being a naysayer at this point. Al Johnson went down early in TC last year and though he was a high pick in the draft, will still need some time to work that knee out in real game situations and learn how to play at the Pro Level. He is the Center and therefore will have to be quick on his feet and understand everyone else's assignments. Larry Allen is still a question mark. Will he continue to check himself out of games because he cant handle being beaten by younger guys or will he show some shell of his former self? Nobody can answer that question until the season begins. Andre Gurode seemed confused with his blocking schemes at times and was a penalty magnet. Sometimes holding Tackles to early and leting Linebackers make plays or vice versa. He could possibly be beaten out by the Rookie Stephen Petermann, which would be even more questions on the line.

I think Ellis and Glover will continue to do their part. The big question is how Blade, Carson, Stewart and Wiley will play. Blade had his best game against the Eagles in the first game, but faded during the end of the season. Bill Parcells seems to be very high on Delroy Stewart, even saying "he was a different man" now. Were the underachieving numbers of Wiley a fluke the last 2 years? We will have to see, but he is proven.

Pete Hunter will be entering his 3rd year as a Pro. He has struggled to stay injury free throughout his career and really struggled in the slot when he got his opportunity. Yes, he has the size, but that must translate onto the field for me to jump on his bandwagon. Mike Irvin supposedly said they should look elsewhere after observing him in the Mini-Camps. I missed the TXCN episode, so I cannot validate this claim. However, I do know Mike speaks his mind and I think he would know a good corner if he saw one.

We have a Rookie starting at Running back and little depth after that. We have MANY questions at the Quarterback position and this is the year Quincy Carter must live up to that 2nd Round pick we used in 2001. There are still some questions at Fullback. At times Jamar Martin didnt seem like he knew where and who to block and I really dont know much about Darian Barnes. All of this uneasiness in the Backfield, questions on the Offensive Line, Antonio Bryants lack of production last year and little depth at Wideout all tells me we will probably struggle this year.

Whether we Cowboys fans want to admit it or not, the division has gotten tougher. I think the days of 2 guranteed wins against the Skins every year may be coming to an End, and Philly is still in the driver's seat in the division.

Minnesota is notorious for starting out of the gates fast and slowing down at the end.

Green Bay was a playoff team last year, and should have been in the NFC Championship game if it werent for bad playing calling on Defense on 4th and seemingly a mile.

Detroit is much improved, but I am not sure how good their chemistry will be.

Seatle should be a good team this year and was a playoff team last year. I think the addition of Bobby Taylor improves their Secondary. He and Trufant should make a great team.

Baltimore, well Baltimore is always tough.

I think we will slide. Maybe 7-9. This win prediction decreases if Carter is benched for Vinny Testeverde because I dont think the Line will be able to protect him.

This is my opinion, so I guess I cannot be wrong :).

- Mike G.

[BHendri5]

You shouldn't, your posts read like something a third grader would write. And its not garbage, its junk. :D

Hold your sides because I have played football and I always preferred a QB who get accurately get the ball to his receivers as opposed to one who tossed it wherever. For some reason, this seemed to result in a lot of interceptions.



You never asked me this. You asked someone else and I think the question was more along the lines of "There have been 39 SuperBowls played, Do you know HOW many QBs has lead their teams to victory and without being as accurate as aikman."

I think that is supposed to be a question and I interpret it to mean "How many QBs have led their team to victory without being as accurate as Aikman?"

In that season? In that game? Career? Not many have been as accurate as Aikman, that is what makes him one of the greats. Did he have help from others? Of course. It took an exceptionally strong supporting cast to get Elway a Super Bowl too. Marino never got one, in part because he never had that great of a supporting cast. It takes a great team to win a Super Bowl. My point was that Aikman was a BIG part of those Super Bowl wins. He played well. He had a great career and to try to say that Jim Zorn, Steve Grogan and Quincy Carter are better QBs is borderline lunacy.



Accuracy is a talent you can be born with. Just like any other skill, some are better than others. No matter how much you practice, I bet you couldn't beat Lance Armstrong in a bike race, Wayne Gretzky in a hockey game or Troy Aikman in a throwing contest (although I won't be surprised if you claim you can :rolleyes: ) Its also something you can improve, but some are just better than others.

Finally, I know you hate stats since they usually prove you wrong, but I thought I would point out a few others. Your biggest beef against Aikman seems to be that he was just there and his teammates carried him along.

1992 -- Passing Yds - 3597
Rushing Yds - 2121
Total Yds - 5718

Aikman threw for 3445 yards or approximately 60% of the offensive yards.
Emmitt rushed for 1713 yards and received for 335 yards or approximately 29% of the offensive yards.
Irvin received for 1396 yards or approximately 36% of the offensive yards.

He also accounted for 24 touchdowns as opposed to 19 for Emmitt(one was a pass) and 7 for Irvin.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1992.htm

1993 -- Passing Yds - 3617 Yds
Rushing Yds - 2161 Yds
Total Yds - 5778 Yds

Aikman threw for 3100 yds or approximately 54% of the offensive yards.
Emmitt rushed for 1486 yards and received for 414 yards for 1900 yards or approximately 33% of the offensive yards.
Irvin received for 1330 yards or approximately 23% of the offensive yards.

Aikman accounted for 15 TDs, Emmitt accounted for 10 and Irvin accounted for 7.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1993.htm

1995 -- Passing Yds - 3741 Yards
Rushing Yds - 2201 Yards
Total Yds - 5942 Yards

Aikman threw for 3304 Yards or approximately 55% of the offensive yards.
Emmitt rushed for 1773 and received for 375 yards for approximately 35% of the offensive yards.
Irvin received for 1603 Yards or approximately 27% of the team's offensive yards.

Aikman accounted for 17 TDs, Emmitt accounted for 25 and Irvin accounted for 10.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1995.htm

So, although you claim otherwise, the bulk of the offense was run through Troy Aikman. He didn't just hand off to Emmitt all the time. If you compare his total yardage each year with Irvin's, you will notice that Aikman also spread the ball around quite nicely.

I noticed in some earlier posts of this thread you seemed to ease a bit on your position on Aikman. I will readily agree that he is not the best QB of all time. He was, however, very good. Yes, he was a system QB, again, most good ones are. Yes, he took a back seat to some other terrific players in Emmitt and Irvin. Did he struggle without a supporting cast? Sure, so did others. That is one of the biggest excuses I hear for QC, why doesn't it work for Aikman?

Bottom line, he was good and I find it highly unlikely that Dallas would have won three Super Bowls without a QB of his caliber on the field.

YOU find it highly unlikely, but no one else does. YOU, love stats, because that is all you know so you run and tell stats . In you and your comrades case instead of the old saying "Run and tell that " You guys "Run and tell stats". LOL

You know what, I'll be honest with you, I cannot stand a stat person, I'll argue with a stat person all day long, they can tell me a stop sign is red and I'll swear up and down that they are color blind.

Stat people remind me of nerds, nerds are good for one thing. so when you are in a battle you can count them out, they cannot watch your back or help in anyway but to tell you what the percentages are.

Sometimes you cats, get on my nerves, because the only ammo you have in an arugment is stats, that's like carrying a peashooter into battle.

I'm like this what was the final outcome did they win are did they lose, screw the stats, if they win great, if they lose back to the drawing board and still screw the stats.

[DallasEast]

YOU find it highly unlikely, but no one else does. YOU, love stats, because that is all you know so you run and tell stats . In you and your comrades case instead of the old saying "Run and tell that " You guys "Run and tell stats". LOL

You know what, I'll be honest with you, I cannot stand a stat person, I'll argue with a stat person all day long, they can tell me a stop sign is red and I'll swear up and down that they are color blind.

Stat people remind me of nerds, nerds are good for one thing. so when you are in a battle you can count them out, they cannot watch your back or help in anyway but to tell you what the percentages are.

Sometimes you cats, get on my nerves, because the only ammo you have in an arugment is stats, that's like carrying a peashooter into battle.

I'm like this what was the final outcome did they win are did they lose, screw the stats, if they win great, if they lose back to the drawing board and still screw the stats.Scoring is a statistic.

Why all the negativity towards statistics? If they weren't relevant, they wouldn't be compiled and kept for prosperity. :confused:

[BHendri5]

Sorry. I didn't mean to make a valid point and distract you. :D

apology accepted. It never fails when I have someone going, somebody always has to jump in.

[BHendri5]

Scoring is a statistic.

Why all the negativity towards statistics? If they weren't relevant, they wouldn't be compiled and kept for prosperity. :confused:


Because stats can be manipulated to make a player look good, or bad.
I'm a huge Jordan fan, and they use to use stats to try and make MJ look like crap while they used them to make Magic, Bird and Isiah look good. So I got to the point that as long as you are winning as Jordan did with his cast of characters (yes Pippen finally came around) that stats do not matter, what matters is do you have a W or an L.

We can have the sorriest QB in the league stats wise as long as he is leading this team to victories I could care less about the stats. Winning ugly is just as good as winning pretty

[blindzebra]

Scoring is a statistic.

Why all the negativity towards statistics? If they weren't relevant, they wouldn't be compiled and kept for prosperity. :confused:

Or used to prove him wrong over and over and over and over again. That's why he hates them.

Stats require logic, opinion does not. CowboynIRAQ only uses opinion.

[DallasEast]

Because stats can be manipulated to make a player look good, or bad.
I'm a huge Jordan fan, and they use to use stats to try and make MJ look like crap while they used them to make Magic, Bird and Isiah look good. So I got to the point that as long as you are winning as Jordan did with his cast of characters (yes Pippen finally came around) that stats do not matter, what matters is do you have a W or an L.

We can have the sorriest QB in the league stats wise as long as he is leading this team to victories I could care less about the stats. Winning ugly is just as good as winning prettyIMO, it seems that you have a problem with those who might misrepresent statistics... and not the statistics themselves. There is a definable difference, you know.

[blindzebra]

YOU find it highly unlikely, but no one else does. YOU, love stats, because that is all you know so you run and tell stats . In you and your comrades case instead of the old saying "Run and tell that " You guys "Run and tell stats". LOL

You know what, I'll be honest with you, I cannot stand a stat person, I'll argue with a stat person all day long, they can tell me a stop sign is red and I'll swear up and down that they are color blind.

Stat people remind me of nerds, nerds are good for one thing. so when you are in a battle you can count them out, they cannot watch your back or help in anyway but to tell you what the percentages are.

Sometimes you cats, get on my nerves, because the only ammo you have in an arugment is stats, that's like carrying a peashooter into battle.

I'm like this what was the final outcome did they win are did they lose, screw the stats, if they win great, if they lose back to the drawing board and still screw the stats.

No the nerds are the ones designing the weapons you use, and collecting the intel that keeps you from getting your a$$ blown off.

[blindzebra]

Because stats can be manipulated to make a player look good, or bad.
I'm a huge Jordan fan, and they use to use stats to try and make MJ look like crap while they used them to make Magic, Bird and Isiah look good. So I got to the point that as long as you are winning as Jordan did with his cast of characters (yes Pippen finally came around) that stats do not matter, what matters is do you have a W or an L.

We can have the sorriest QB in the league stats wise as long as he is leading this team to victories I could care less about the stats. Winning ugly is just as good as winning pretty

If he has crummy stats he is not LEADING his team anywhere, he's along for the ride.

B J Armstrong was the point guard, the QB of a basketball team, did HE lead the Bulls?

[BHendri5]

CowboyInIraq, my expectations are not as high as your, even though you made some very excellent points.

I think the Offensive Line will continue its role as the "Bane" of the team. I see at least 2 Rookies on the Offensive Line. Rumor has it that Rogers has had a little trouble making the switch, but it is too early to start being a naysayer at this point. Al Johnson went down early in TC last year and though he was a high pick in the draft, will still need some time to work that knee out in real game situations and learn how to play at the Pro Level. He is the Center and therefore will have to be quick on his feet and understand everyone else's assignments. Larry Allen is still a question mark. Will he continue to check himself out of games because he cant handle being beaten by younger guys or will he show some shell of his former self? Nobody can answer that question until the season begins. Andre Gurode seemed confused with his blocking schemes at times and was a penalty magnet. Sometimes holding Tackles to early and leting Linebackers make plays or vice versa. He could possibly be beaten out by the Rookie Stephen Petermann, which would be even more questions on the line.

I think Ellis and Glover will continue to do their part. The big question is how Blade, Carson, Stewart and Wiley will play. Blade had his best game against the Eagles in the first game, but faded during the end of the season. Bill Parcells seems to be very high on Delroy Stewart, even saying "he was a different man" now. Were the underachieving numbers of Wiley a fluke the last 2 years? We will have to see, but he is proven.

Pete Hunter will be entering his 3rd year as a Pro. He has struggled to stay injury free throughout his career and really struggled in the slot when he got his opportunity. Yes, he has the size, but that must translate onto the field for me to jump on his bandwagon. Mike Irvin supposedly said they should look elsewhere after observing him in the Mini-Camps. I missed the TXCN episode, so I cannot validate this claim. However, I do know Mike speaks his mind and I think he would know a good corner if he saw one.

We have a Rookie starting at Running back and little depth after that. We have MANY questions at the Quarterback position and this is the year Quincy Carter must live up to that 2nd Round pick we used in 2001. There are still some questions at Fullback. At times Jamar Martin didnt seem like he knew where and who to block and I really dont know much about Darian Barnes. All of this uneasiness in the Backfield, questions on the Offensive Line, Antonio Bryants lack of production last year and little depth at Wideout all tells me we will probably struggle this year.

Whether we Cowboys fans want to admit it or not, the division has gotten tougher. I think the days of 2 guranteed wins against the Skins every year may be coming to an End, and Philly is still in the driver's seat in the division.

Minnesota is notorious for starting out of the gates fast and slowing down at the end.

Green Bay was a playoff team last year, and should have been in the NFC Championship game if it werent for bad playing calling on Defense on 4th and seemingly a mile.

Detroit is much improved, but I am not sure how good their chemistry will be.

Seatle should be a good team this year and was a playoff team last year. I think the addition of Bobby Taylor improves their Secondary. He and Trufant should make a great team.

Baltimore, well Baltimore is always tough.

I think we will slide. Maybe 7-9. This win prediction decreases if Carter is benched for Vinny Testeverde because I dont think the Line will be able to protect him.

This is my opinion, so I guess I cannot be wrong :).

- Mike G.


Hmm, I don't know Dawg, that's like doom and gloom to me, especially after last season.
You don't think that the pride in the players will make them strive to be even better this season than last?
You have to add at least some of those guys pride, into the equation. Players like Woody, Roy, Newman, Coakley, Dat, Glover, Ellis, Carter, Johnson, Glenn, AB, Whitten, Campbell. Dawg those are guys who have heart and a whole lot of pride. Do you actually think they will settle for 7-9?

[BHendri5]

MikeD17 and CowboynIraq are separated @ birth


I don't know you, so you get no run here. I've been going back and forth with these guys for a long time now. Even though I act like I don't respect them, they got it.

But you hang around.

[BHendri5]

If he has crummy stats he is not LEADING his team anywhere, he's along for the ride.

B J Armstrong was the point guard, the QB of a basketball team, did HE lead the Bulls?


LOL, that is exactly what I say about aikman. He was along for the ride. LOL

[Maikeru-sama]

CII, where are you from in the US? Texas?

- Mike G.

[BHendri5]

No the nerds are the ones designing the weapons you use, and collecting the intel that keeps you from getting your a$$ blown off.

Nah, they get and compile the intel, but I keep my a$$ intact. If they did that then we would not have over 800 casualties, now.

[BHendri5]

CII, where are you from in the US? Texas?

- Mike G.

Originally from Temple, but now reside in Austin. I roll to Dallas to visit relatives.

[blindzebra]

LOL, that is exactly what I say about aikman. He was along for the ride. LOL

Not even close.

Emmitt was MJ, but Aikman was our Pippen. Irvin was the Worm. ;)

[BHendri5]

Not even close.

Emmitt was MJ, but Aikman was our Pippen. Irvin was the Worm. ;)

I'll agree with that. that was a good one :)

[DallasEast]

LOL, that is exactly what I say about aikman. He was along for the ride. LOLBasketball plays can be initiated, enacted and finished with varying degrees of point guard interaction. Football plays, on the other hand, begin with the quarterback. Success and failure during a possession could result in a fumble, incomplete pass, inability to avoid a sack, etc.

There is a contrasting difference in gameplay within football and basketball. Downplay or eliminate the importance represented by the quarterback from the sport of football and you're not going to be able to make credible arguments revolving the offensive aspect of the game.

Relatively speaking, I'm new here. Am I right it assuming that a proven Super Bowl quarterback like Aikman is ridiculed on this forum? If so, that's kinda weird.

[BHendri5]

Basketball plays can be initiated, enacted and finished with varying degrees of point guard interaction. Football plays, on the other hand, begin with the quarterback. Success and failure during a possession could result in a fumble, incomplete pass, inability to avoid a sack, etc.

There is a contrasting difference in gameplay within football and basketball. Downplay or eliminate the importance represented by the quarterback from the sport of football and you're not going to be able to make credible arguments revolving the offensive aspect of the game.

Relatively speaking, I'm new here. Am I right it assuming that a proven Super Bowl quarterback like Aikman is ridiculed on this forum? If so, that's kinda weird.


He's not ridiculed, some here believes as you do, and I am assuming this . that aikman made Irvin, Emmitt and everyone else better and that the team was not strong enough to win those SBs with any other QB.

Myself and some others believe that, without the strong cast of players around aikman he would not be headed to the HOF. I like to argue with the guys about his accuracy, because that is what they start and end their argument with, he was that. that argument gets spun and twisted every which way, most of the time I believe we do it because of boredom and nothing happening, (at least I do ).

To be honest Aikman did a great job at what was asked of him. In my opinion I say he was asked to manage the game and not make costly mistakes, complete the passes when asked to, but mainly just guide the ship, because the engine was 22. He stood tall in the pocket and took a beating to deliver the ball, courageous. Even though we had a few come from behind victories, not many he could not lead us back, from more than 2 tds down, that was not our style of offense. He could not carry the team if asked to lala Elway, Staubach, favre McNabb.
He was steady and cool in the pocket, even though he was going to get his head handed to him he stayed strong.

Nah, he is not ridiculed.

[DallasEast]

He's not ridiculed, some here believes as you do, and I am assuming this . that aikman made Irvin, Emmitt and everyone else better and that the team was not strong enough to win those SBs with any other QB.

Myself and some others believe that, without the strong cast of players around aikman he would not be headed to the HOF. I like to argue with the guys about his accuracy, because that is what they start and end their argument with, he was that. that argument gets spun and twisted every which way, most of the time I believe we do it because of boredom and nothing happening, (at least I do ).

To be honest Aikman did a great job at what was asked of him. In my opinion I say he was asked to manage the game and not make costly mistakes, complete the passes when asked to, but mainly just guide the ship, because the engine was 22. He stood tall in the pocket and took a beating to deliver the ball, courageous. Even though we had a few come from behind victories, not many he could not lead us back, from more than 2 tds down, that was not our style of offense. He could not carry the team if asked to lala Elway, Staubach, favre McNabb.
He was steady and cool in the pocket, even though he was going to get his head handed to him he stayed strong.

Nah, he is not ridiculed.I'm not much for the woulda, coulda, shoulda's.

Aikman's career and his success was an integral part of the 90's Cowboys' teams. It cannot be undervalued or overinflated.

He was a 3-time Super Bowl winning quarterback.

There are a number of accolades which could follow that statement, but its not necessary.

Aikman's headed for the Hall of Fame. His successors, on the other hand? Who knows? But is it really necessary to demean Aikman by saying that he should be compared to those who haven't [yet] achieve a similar success during their careers?

I think not.

[BHendri5]

I'm not much for the woulda, coulda, shoulda's.

Aikman's career and his success was an integral part of the 90's Cowboys' teams. It cannot be undervalued or overinflated.

He was a 3-time Super Bowl winning quarterback.

There are a number of accolades which could follow that statement, but its not necessary.

Aikman's headed for the Hall of Fame. His successors, on the other hand? Who knows? But is it really necessary to demean Aikman by saying that he should be compared to those who haven't [yet] achieve a similar success during their careers?

I think not.



In my opinion it is not demeaning to compare youngsters to Aikman, he was compared to others before

[DallasEast]

In my opinion it is not demeaning to compare youngsters to Aikman, he was compared to others beforeThe key word here is "youngsters".

Statistical analysis is one thing. Stats are hard data which can be cross-referenced with any other player's. Comparing a player's career with another player who is just starting theirs is gonna get you nowhere fast, imo.

Aikman did what was necessary to cement himself as a Cowboy--and NFL--legend. There isn't another quarterback currently on the Dallas roster who can come close. Only the future will determine whether they will. Or not.

[Maikeru-sama]

Originally from Temple, but now reside in Austin. I roll to Dallas to visit relatives.


Cool Cool. Born and Raised in Dallas, but live in Irving now.

- Mike G.

[BHendri5]

The key word here is "youngsters".

Statistical analysis is one thing. Stats are hard data which can be cross-referenced with any other player's. Comparing a player's career with another player who is just starting theirs is gonna get you nowhere fast, imo.

Aikman did what was necessary to cement himself as a Cowboy--and NFL--legend. There isn't another quarterback currently on the Dallas roster who can come close. Only the future will determine whether they will. Or not.


Key words Youngsters and future. Remember aikman was a youngster once, and he went thru his maturation process, he had to learn to read defenses and manage an NFL game , he had to get use to the speed of the NFL game, it took him 3yrs before we knew for sure he had made it thru the tunnel at Quote that Parcells used, we went 11-5, a season that the so called experts said that we overachieved just like they said we did last season. Anyway in Aikman's 4th season before the season started the so called experts predicted that we would not do as well as the season before, and what did we do, in nineteen hundred and ninety two.

DE, this whole scenario that our team is going thru, now it seems like deja vue, it is wierd. Yeah we had one less win than in aikman's 3rd season but we were picked to go 5-11 again in Parcells 1st season.

I can't be the only one that sees this comparison

[BHendri5]

Cool Cool. Born and Raised in Dallas, but live in Irving now.

- Mike G.

Alright bet, I ain't mad at you. Let me ask you this. do you see a comparison as to what happened to back in 1991, I was saying to Dallas East, that we were said to have overachieved, then and they said the same about us after last season.
Like I said this season here is truly a big season for a number of reasons, it will tell the tale of a group of players and this team as a whole.

[Maikeru-sama]

I am not sure about that. See in 1990, if they would have won 1 of their last 2 Games they would have made the playoffs that year. I remember Emmitt won Rookie of the year and expectations were pretty high the next year, but I am just going off of memory. I know in 1991, Emmitt and Michael led the league in Rushing and Receptions respectively, so I dont know that that year they were believed to have really overachieved. But going from 7-9 to 11-5 was quite a difference in just 2 Seasons.

You have to remember, the Boys benefited from an easy schedule this season, especially at the beginning. What were we, like 2-5 against teams with a .500 record or better when we met them? Who knew the Giants would be in so bad in 2003? We played the sucky Redskins twice this year, for an easy 2!! When we played Philadelphia, they were without Taylor and Vincent and we barely pulled that game out. When we faced the real competition, New England, Carolina the 2nd time, Philly the 2nd time (I think they had won like 8 straight or something like that), Miami (which was only the 2nd time a team with a 10-6 record didnt make the playoffs I beleive), New Orleans (who has a ton of talent but known for late season debacles) and Tampa Bay, we didnt look so hot.

I think this year was really a smoke screen. We crept up on some people with some injuries and some that didnt respect us (like Philly kicking that damn onside). I have said this, Quincy has got to play better. Man, I almost broke my hand during the New England game because he just kept making mistakes and wrong reads. In my heart I want Quincy to succeed, and I am almost out of excuses for him. I think the Defense played well, and has been a Super Bowl caliber defense for probably the last couple of season even though I would rather take New England and Carolina's defense in a dog fight. Is Antonio Bryant going to step up to the plate like he did his rookie year, or will it be "t-shirtgate" all over again?

This division has gotten tougher. Washington and Philadelphia all improved last year. In Bill We Trust Right? Well Bill supposedly said Joe Gibbs was the best Coach he ever went up against. I have no reason to believe he wasn't telling the truth. That is 4 Tough games in our own division. I think we play about 4-5 Teams that made the playoffs last year or should have made it if it were not for some bazarre mishaps. Minnesota, New Orleans, Green Bay, Seattle and some more probably (dont feel like looking the schedule up) will all be really tough games to pull out.

This year was the 1st year, where I felt we lost the games we were suppose too and won the games we were suppose too. Like Mickey Spagnola talked about, we wont be able to sneak up on anyone anymore. The NFC East is full of coaches who are proven winners, so our own backyard has gotten rougher.

I just dont see this team finishing with a winning record, im sorry, I just dont.

I think this is a great opportunity to get some of these young players that Campo never managed to get on the the field some playing time. We should not have any question marks (unless an injury occurs) after this season. Our club will be better for it, because we will know exactly what position needs to be addressed come time for the draft.

- Mike G.