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Funxva

10-28-2005, 11:40 AM

Here are some thoughts from the Cad. fans:

Topic: Adrian vs. Roy RogueCardinal
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http://www.azcardinals.com/ubb/icons/icon1.gif posted 10-28-2005 09:02 AM http://www.azcardinals.com/ubb/profile.gif (http://www.azcardinals.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001653) http://www.azcardinals.com/ubb/priv_message.gif (http://www.azcardinals.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001653) http://www.azcardinals.com/ubb/edit_ubb6.gif (http://www.azcardinals.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=2;t=031999;reply_nu m=000000;u=00001653)

This week Adrian has a chance to show that he is the better SS between the two. I feel that Adrian outplayed Roy last year, yet he didn't get a sniff of recognition. Roy may be the most overrated player in the entire league, I will give him credit for being great in run support, but the guy is a gas can when it comes to pass defense.

Adrian is off to a slow start this season as far as big plays goes, so this could be his week to explode. As far as Roy Williams goes hopefully he can also make a big play for us, ie like he did for Washington and Santana Moss.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -- - - -

Thoughts? I think this guy might be nuts. Roy is having an awesome year.

CliffnMesquite

10-28-2005, 11:42 AM

If the Cowboys underestimate the Cardinals. They will get their arses kicked.

Funxva

10-28-2005, 11:43 AM

If the Cowboys underestimate the Cardinals. They will get their arses kicked.

I'm not advocating underestimating any team. I'm saying that there is no way that the cards SS is doing better than Roy. Last year or this year.

cowheel

10-28-2005, 11:45 AM

Cardinals fans have a message board?

Funxva

10-28-2005, 11:47 AM

Yup. it's of of azcardinals.com.

You have to register though. Some interesting stuff on there. Like the QB controvery between BenchWarmer and Mc gown.

WoodysGirl

10-28-2005, 12:11 PM

Yakuza Rich

10-28-2005, 12:15 PM

Chocolate Lab

10-28-2005, 12:21 PM

another board, I've been reading is arizonasportsfans.com; real low traffic, but I didn't have to register and the content is ok... and yes they believe our secondary is overrated..

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=63101
I read a few threads, and they seem to think that since we play Roy in the box a lot, all they have to do is throw deep to single-covered WRs.

Somehow I think other teams may have thought of that before, though. ;)

KingTuna

10-28-2005, 12:24 PM

If the Cowboys underestimate the Cardinals. They will get their arses kicked.

With all the attention Parcells has been getting about talking to his players everyday I do not see HOW they could be underestimating them.

In fact, I won't be surprised to see the Cardinals take the WRATH of the team after losing last week.

:starspin

Seven

10-28-2005, 12:40 PM

Yup. it's of of azcardinals.com.

You have to register though. Some interesting stuff on there. Like the QB controvery between BenchWarmer and Mc gown.

Bench-Warner.....that's a classic!!http://cowboyszone.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

BARRYRAY

10-28-2005, 01:17 PM

EndGame

10-28-2005, 01:20 PM

Cardinals fans have a message board?
There are Cardinals fans? :laugh2:

silver

10-28-2005, 01:25 PM

i'm glad they think roy is overated. it'll centainly come back to haunt them. i doubt boldin and fitzgerald share that thought. they'll be aligator arms accross the middle on sunday guaranteed

Funxva

10-28-2005, 02:03 PM

With all the attention Parcells has been getting about talking to his players everyday I do not see HOW they could be underestimating them.

In fact, I won't be surprised to see the Cardinals take the WRATH of the team after losing last week.

:starspin

I think they are going to come out fired up, and hit some people. But I hope to God that they don't play down to the Cardinals. I want to Philly-stomp them.

zagnut

10-28-2005, 04:59 PM

Well, Wilson has less tackles per game, less sacks, less INT's, and less forced fumbles this year.

The problem is that Roy has this stigma of being awful in coverage (even KC Joyner doesn't agree with that) and almost every time a big pass is completed Roy gets the blame.

For example, I read people blaming Roy for Jeramy Stevens' reception in the last Seattle drive. Unfortunately, Willie Pile was covering Stevens. Even worse, Roy was blitzing on that play.

Rich......

From NFL.com, Wilson has 41 tackles in 6 games. Roy has 37 tackles in 7 games. They're both terrific Safeties, but 41 in 6 games is > than 37 tackles in 7 games.

Wilson also bettered Roy in nearly every stat last year. Cardinals fans are just pointing out that popularity does not always equal production and some players are hyped while others are ignored. This is something most fans say when their team's players don't get any love from the media or other fans...including Cowboys fans.

Juke99

10-28-2005, 05:07 PM

There are Cardinals fans? :laugh2:

There's a team in Arizona???

Hostile

10-28-2005, 05:34 PM

There's a team in Arizona???Unfortunately, there is. I'd like to lose them to Los Angeles, but all they want is our water.

ka0tik

10-28-2005, 06:21 PM

Hmmm Ok, Williams is overrated lets see how many times Fitzgerald goes dont the middle....ROY Will be Waiting..... :cool:

Rack Bauer

10-28-2005, 06:30 PM

Well there not totally wrong, Roy is not great at coverage, rmeember that one where Shockey is open by about 30 yards and he catches him at the end zone and makes the aw shucks sign, not exactly HOF here. He's got to play better in coverage it's part of being an all-pro safety...

What does that play have to do with Roy's coverage ability? Roy didn't cover Shockey on that play. Roy's "Ability" had nothing to do with Shockey getting open on that play.

Shaun

10-28-2005, 06:48 PM

Tackles aren't the best stat to compare, especially when there is only a difference of 4 tackles between the two safeties. The Cowboys defense is on the field less than most other defenses in the NFL. So other defense will have more total tackles than the 'boys will.

Redsz

10-28-2005, 06:59 PM

That is one reason, although there isn't a great difference between TOP for both teams. Dallas is #1 with 25:46 and Arizona is #6 with 28:01.

Both are the same type of safteys. Big guys who look to destroy someone on each play and are used in similar way by their defenses. But because Wilson is so athletic and a bit quicker for a guy his size (6-3 230) I would say he has a bit of an edge IMO.

Rack Bauer

10-28-2005, 07:21 PM

That is one reason, although there isn't a great difference between TOP for both teams. Dallas is #1 with 25:46 and Arizona is #6 with 28:01

Wow. There's 60 minutes in a football game but the team leading the NFL in TOP averages less then half that time.

Smart. Real smart.

And Wilson is nowhere near the safety that Roy Williams is. I consider it an insult that anyone (even a homer cardinals fan - surprised they even exist) would suggest such a thing.

Redsz

10-28-2005, 08:03 PM

silverbear

10-28-2005, 08:08 PM

If the Cowboys underestimate the Cardinals. They will get their arses kicked.

Wow, you say that as if you're the first one to ever have such a thought...

Thank you, Captain Obvious... what's your next prediction, that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning??

Of course, there's a flip side to that one, one none of you defeatists never seems to mention-- if the Cowboys play their game, they should win the game...

That's because they're really the better team... as Parcells says, you are what you are, and the Cards are a 2-4 team...

Mansta54

10-28-2005, 08:11 PM

The TOP is from NFL.com. If you have a problem with how they calculate it, then you best take it up with them.

And realistically, how many times have you watched Adrian Wilson play? Be honest, how many Cardinal games have you watched considering they have hardly appeared on national TV in the last 5 years?

Wilson is bigger and quicker and less of liability when covering one on one. I don't have to be a freakin' homer to suggest that I believe he is the better saftey.

Dude you must be CRAZY... Man pleeeeeeze!!!! He can't carry Roys jock, stop trippin.. Here's some numbers for ya, 5 Rings to your NONE... Don't ever compare nothing about the sorry Cardinals with the BOYZ. Players, coaches, and down to the waterboy, those bums don't measure up..PERIOD!!!!!!

silverbear

10-28-2005, 08:12 PM

That is one reason, although there isn't a great difference between TOP for both teams. Dallas is #1 with 25:46 and Arizona is #6 with 28:01.

Actually, a 2:15 advantage in time of possession is pretty big in the NFL...

As for the endless "Adrian Wilson is better than Roy Williams" and "Sean Taylor is better than Roy Williams" debates, WHO GIVES A RAT'S PATOOTIE??

You don't get awarded Super Bowl trophies for having the best safety in the game, last time I checked... I'm quite happy with Roy Williams playing for my favorite team, and if Cards fans like their record and Adrian Wilson better, well, they're welcome to him...

Mansta54

10-28-2005, 08:19 PM

The TOP is from NFL.com. If you have a problem with how they calculate it, then you best take it up with them.

And realistically, how many times have you watched Adrian Wilson play? Be honest, how many Cardinal games have you watched considering they have hardly appeared on national TV in the last 5 years?

Wilson is bigger and quicker and less of liability when covering one on one. I don't have to be a freakin' homer to suggest that I believe he is the better saftey.

Who is Adrian Wilson anyway???? Maaaan, roll out with that silly noise.. Adrian Wilson better then Roy,hahahahhaha. You're killin me over here!!! What a joke!!!

Redsz

10-28-2005, 08:27 PM

Actually, a 2:15 advantage in time of possession is pretty big in the NFL...

It can be in a close game. But as I said before, in the context of #1 vs #6, I don't think it is a huge difference.

As for the endless "Adrian Wilson is better than Roy Williams" and "Sean Taylor is better than Roy Williams" debates, WHO GIVES A RAT'S PATOOTIE??

You don't get awarded Super Bowl trophies for having the best safety in the game, last time I checked... I'm quite happy with Roy Williams playing for my favorite team, and if Cards fans like their record and Adrian Wilson better, well, they're welcome to him...

The thread was about comparing Williams to Wilson. So it's not like I'm some troll who crawled out of a hole and posted ' ADRIAN WILSON is da man. he will kill da Cowboys on Sun. Woot!11111111'.

I love the spin on the record though. Nice work. :)

idiotec777

10-28-2005, 10:23 PM

Let's be honest, Roy does make coverage errors. However, Roy has and continues to play in a better defensive unit, therefore limiting his tackles. Especially with the likes of Dat and Co.

david_jackson

10-28-2005, 11:34 PM

If you wanted to compare the two on tackles perhaps you could look at what % of the teams tackles are made by each... That would at least take into account TOP. Even that is flawed though since if your front seven do a better job againt the run then the safety will get less opportunities to tackle

CanadianCowboysFan

10-28-2005, 11:45 PM

Does that guy aholecentral still post on Cardinal boards? I remember him starting a thread once where he said he would decide if each Cowboy fan was a bandwagoner.

Rack Bauer

10-28-2005, 11:46 PM

The TOP is from NFL.com. If you have a problem with how they calculate it, then you best take it up with them.

Regardless of what is stated at NFL.com, an intelligent person (or at least a person with common sense) would know that the team leading the NFL in TOP would HAVE to average more then 30 minutes TOP per game.

So an intelligent person should of seen the 25:46 time listed and known that the #1 team in TOP couldn't possibly be averaging only 25:46 per game.

Not to mention you also posted that the Cards average 28:01 per game and were rated #6 in TOP. Why would they be ranked BEHIND the cowboys in TOP if those numbers were accurate? An intelligent person wouldn't of just copied numbers and made a statement. An intelligent person would of realized those numbers couldn't possibly be accurate and would of done more research before making a post. An intelligent person would of made sure he/she posted the correct information.

But then again, you also posted that Adrian Wilson is better then Roy Williams. If you can't get that right I shouldn't expect you to get anything else right.

By the way, Roy Williams was listed (and played) FS last year. So him and AW (who I think is pretty good) didn't even play the same position last year.

silverbear

10-29-2005, 12:43 AM

Rack Bauer

10-29-2005, 01:17 AM

Rack, I'm pretty sure he's talking about defensive time of possession allowed, in which case the lower the number, the better... what we have heah... is failure... to COMMUNICATE...

:eek:

Nope. He posted it plain as day. He has a failure to use his head. I know exactly what those stats meant, but he sure as hell didn't.

Redsz

10-30-2005, 01:09 AM

Regardless of what is stated at NFL.com, an intelligent person (or at least a person with common sense) would know that the team leading the NFL in TOP would HAVE to average more then 30 minutes TOP per game.

So an intelligent person should of seen the 25:46 time listed and known that the #1 team in TOP couldn't possibly be averaging only 25:46 per game.

The of TOP is calculated by NFL statistics. Instead of throwing out a tirade about my intelligence maybe you should contact them in an effort to understand the formula they use to calculate it?

Not to mention you also posted that the Cards average 28:01 per game and were rated #6 in TOP. Why would they be ranked BEHIND the cowboys in TOP if those numbers were accurate?

Because the quicker the defense is off the field the better.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2005/regular?sort_col_1=4&_1:col_1=15

The Dallas defense is on the field the least in the NFL.

Which is relevant when your talking about such a deceptive stat as tackles. Because, obviously, the longer you are on the field the more tackles have to be made.

An intelligent person wouldn't of just copied numbers and made a statement. An intelligent person would of realized those numbers couldn't possibly be accurate and would of done more research before making a post. An intelligent person would of made sure he/she posted the correct information.

Right, so the numbers provided by NFL statistics aren't accurate? :rolleyes:

Again, if you have a problem with how they calculate the TOP, contact NFL statistics.

But then again, you also posted that Adrian Wilson is better then Roy Williams. If you can't get that right I shouldn't expect you to get anything else right.

You still haven't given me any reasons to why Wilson isn't a better saftey.

Instead of being so rightious with your opinion, maybe you could share with us mere mortals what makes my opinion so crazy?

By the way, Roy Williams was listed (and played) FS last year. So him and AW (who I think is pretty good) didn't even play the same position last year.

That doesn't matter when your talking about covering and pursuit angles (which are Williams two biggest problems). When a player blows and assignment, he blows and assignment, whether he is at FS or SS.

The role of SS and FS in the Cardinals defense is virtually the same. Both play up in the box alot. And both cover alot.

So odds are, what Williams was doing at FS for the Cowboys wasn't exactly unique and something Wilson hasn't done before.

Rack Bauer

10-30-2005, 01:52 AM

What does TIME OF POSSESSION have to do with the defense?

Time of possession isn't a measure of how long a defense is on the field, it's a measure of how long an offense is on the field (how long the offense POSSESSES the football).

Again, an intelligent person would of known right away that the #1 team in T.O.P. couldn't possibly average less then 30 minutes TOP per game.

Which is relevant when your talking about such a deceptive stat as tackles. Because, obviously, the longer you are on the field the more tackles have to be made.

Which makes the fact that Wilson has more tackles then Roy completely irrelevant, being that he's on the field more then ROy, of course he's gonna have more opportunities then Roy.

Right, so the numbers provided by NFL statistics aren't accurate?

You have a severe lack of common sense.

If NFL.com says the Cowboys are leading the NFL in TOP at 25 minutes a game, YES THEY'RE WRONG. Use your head (or try to). If they really were averaging 25 minutes a game then that means their opponent is averaging 35 minutes a game. If their opponent is averaging more TOP per game, then how could the cowboys possibly be LEADING in that category?

Try and figure it out. It's basic math. Addition and subtraction... I'm sure even a Cards fan can handle that.

You still haven't given me any reasons to why Wilson isn't a better saftey.

You haven't given a legitimate reason that Wilson is better then Roy.

Instead of being so rightious with your opinion, maybe you could share with us mere mortals what makes my opinion so crazy?

Again, you haven't even given a reason that Wilson is better then Roy. So until you do, .

That doesn't matter when your talking about covering and pursuit angles (which are Williams two biggest problems).

This sentence proves you have no idea you're talking about regarding Roy. I don't know where all this "Roy can't cover" crap comes from, but it simply isn't true.

And the pursuit angles, where the F are you getting this crap? lol

When a player blows and assignment, he blows and assignment, whether he is at FS or SS.

So now Roy blows his assignments? Please, name an assignment he has blown. Have fun with that.

So odds are, what Williams was doing at FS for the Cowboys wasn't exactly unique and something Wilson hasn't done before.

Did you even watch Roy last year? Due to having no pass rush and a revolving door at RCB, Roy had to play deep about 95% of the time. Funny how when the cowboys needed to help a struggling corner they use a player that "Struggles in coverage" to fill that role. Roy is at his best when playing close to the line, but that does NOT mean he struggles in coverage. Just cuz coverage is not his strongest assest, doesn't mean he's poor at it.

But I guess the world you live in is black and white. It's either/or in your world, huh?

kmd24

10-30-2005, 04:17 AM

You have a severe lack of common sense.

If NFL.com says the Cowboys are leading the NFL in TOP at 25 minutes a game, YES THEY'RE WRONG. Use your head (or try to). If they really were averaging 25 minutes a game then that means their opponent is averaging 35 minutes a game. If their opponent is averaging more TOP per game, then how could the cowboys possibly be LEADING in that category?

Defensive sortables (http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2005/regular?sort_col_1=4&_1:col_1=15)

You are simply arguing semantics.

The more relevant stat is plays, and the Cowboys have played 404 defensive snaps (7 games) to the Cards 357 (6 games).

Regardless, tackles are a pretty poor statfor comparing the relative value of two players since they are highly dependent upon scheme and the quality of the rest of the defense.

Rack Bauer

10-30-2005, 04:23 AM

A defense can't have a "Time of Possession".

"Time of Possession" is how long a team POSSESSES the football. I don't see how that's so difficult to understand.

SuspectCorner

10-30-2005, 04:39 AM

A defense can't have a "Time of Possession".

"Time of Possession" is how long a team POSSESSES the football. I don't see how that's so difficult to understand.
the stats given appear to relate to OPPONENTS AVG. TIME OF POSSESSION - as the discussion clearly centered around defense. let's not elevate hair-splitting to an artform.

kmd24

10-30-2005, 04:45 AM

A defense can't have a "Time of Possession".

"Time of Possession" is how long a team POSSESSES the football. I don't see how that's so difficult to understand.

A turnover is something an offense does. The defense doesn't possess the football, so how can it have a turnover stat?

to-may-to, to-mah-to

kmd24

10-30-2005, 04:52 AM

The Cowboys defense is on the field less than most other defenses in the NFL. So other defense will have more total tackles than the 'boys will.

That's not the biggest factor. Dallas only plays one fewer defensive snap per game than Arizona.

The biggest factor is that the Dallas CB's are great tacklers. Anthony Henry probably has more tackles than all of the Arizona CB's combined. Newman adds another 25. When other guys on the defense make plays, it cuts into Roy's stats.

You could look at Wilson's tackle stats as an indictment of the rest of the Cards defense.

Rack Bauer

10-30-2005, 05:24 AM

A turnover is something an offense does. The defense doesn't possess the football, so how can it have a turnover stat?

to-may-to, to-mah-to

Speaking of fruits, your comparison is apples and oranges.

Not even remotely similiar.

And a defense can CREATE a turnover, or CAUSE a turnover. But the offense is the one that POSSESSES the ball. Even if a DB gets an int, the defense turns into the offense while they POSSESS the football.

Time of Possession = the amount of time the offense POSSESSES the football. And there's no tomAYtoes or toMAHtoes involved in that.

Rack Bauer

10-30-2005, 05:26 AM

the stats given appear to relate to OPPONENTS AVG. TIME OF POSSESSION - as the discussion clearly centered around defense. let's not elevate hair-splitting to an artform.

You know there's a much easier way to get your sig centered, and w/o the lines.

SuspectCorner

10-30-2005, 05:55 AM

You know there's a much easier way to get your sig centered, and w/o the lines.

any help is appreciated.

Rack Bauer

10-30-2005, 05:58 AM

any help is appreciated.

Go to edit your sig in your control panel.

Delete all those lines.

Highlight/select all the text (the [img] and the writing) then click the button that looks like this:

____
___
____
___
____
___

Then save it.

Tyler Durden

10-30-2005, 06:00 AM

Thoughts? I think this guy might be nuts. Roy is having an awesome year.

If giving up huge plays at the end of games and dropping interceptions is an "awesome" year, then i'd hate to see a bad year.

kmd24

10-30-2005, 06:14 AM

Speaking of fruits, your comparison is apples and oranges.

Not even remotely similiar.

And a defense can CREATE a turnover, or CAUSE a turnover. But the offense is the one that POSSESSES the ball. Even if a DB gets an int, the defense turns into the offense while they POSSESS the football.

Time of Possession = the amount of time the offense POSSESSES the football. And there's no tomAYtoes or toMAHtoes involved in that.

You make obstinance an art form.

The best rushing defense is often measured in terms of the number of yards rushing gained by the opposing offense, despite the fact that the defense never actually rushes with the football.

It stands to reason that a defense can also be measured by the amount of time that the opposing offense does something else, such as possess the football.

It's not a foreign concept to most people. You are a smart guy and obviously understand this. As such, I must conclude that you are more interested in arguing than actually making a point.

SuspectCorner

10-30-2005, 06:15 AM

Go to edit your sig in your control panel.

Delete all those lines.

Highlight/select all the text (the [img] and the writing) then click the button that looks like this:

____
___
____
___
____
___

Then save it.

yes, that does look better. thanks Rack.

Rack Bauer

10-31-2005, 12:32 AM

yes, that does look better. thanks Rack.

No problem.

And kmd, you're still comparing apples to oranges.