Anybody hear Wilbon ...

[WV Cowboy]

Anybody hear Wilbon say that when people question Vick's ability to pass it is a racial thing ?

He went on to say that if a blonde haired white guy won games but didn't pass well he would be a hero.

:eek: :confused:

[TheHustler]

or... they could be right?

[burmafrd]

Its always about race. Stupid people. Well, its not like they have intelligent sportswriters or sportscasters. Ignorant, dumb and stupid.

[Phoenix-Talon]

Anybody hear Wilbon say that when people question Vick's ability to pass it is a racial thing ?

He went on to say that if a blonde haired white guy won games but didn't pass well he would be a hero. :eek: :confused:

Oh don't be confused, Wilbon has a big mouth and both oo them on that show say constroversial stuff to raise the hair on the back of viewers necks to increase ratings. He's not playing a race card so much as he's trying to promote Vick's ability by grabbing attention to his plight anyway he can. I think he and Vick are buddies or something like that.

Shut up Wilbon or you'll have ...splaining to do!

[Doomsday101]

Anybody hear Wilbon say that when people question Vick's ability to pass it is a racial thing ?

He went on to say that if a blonde haired white guy won games but didn't pass well he would be a hero.

:eek: :confused:

Personally I hate when someone turns this into a black and white issue. Vicks passing numbers says it all he ranks at the bottom of the league and no it is not his WR it is him and his inability to hang in a pocket and let the rout develop. As far as his athletic ability I think Vick is the most gifted player in the NFL but his passing numbers do not lie.

[percyhoward]

Vick´s the 26th-highest rated passer in the NFL.

I don´t think you get points for hair in those rankings, or else Hasselbeck wouldn´t be in the top ten.

That said, the rating formula should be updated to include running stats, then it would be a true QB rating, and not just a passer rating.

[TheHustler]

Oh don't be confused, Wilbon has a big mouth and both oo them on that show say constroversial stuff to raise the hair on the back of viewers necks to increase ratings. He's not playing a race card so much as he's trying to promote Vick's ability by grabbing attention to his plight anyway he can. I think he and Vick are buddies or something like that.

Shut up Wilbon or you'll have ...splaining to do!

I think it is time to change your sig :)

Whats the Eagle spin on the TO situation anyway?

I'm sure if this was a Redskins thing Art would be spouting off about how he was overrated anyway.

[Phoenix-Talon]

Vicks passing numbers says it all he ranks at the bottom of the league and no it is not his WR it is him and his inability to hang in a pocket and let the rout develop. ...his passing numbers do not lie.

I have no problem with that perspective.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Anybody hear Wilbon say that when people question Vick's ability to pass it is a racial thing ?

He went on to say that if a blonde haired white guy won games but didn't pass well he would be a hero.

:eek: :confused:

This makes me laugh. I think that we actually had one of those a year or so ago (Blonde Haired White Guy). He got drafted as a WR by the Jags. Interesting how little thought is actually put into these sports segments sometimes.

[Doomsday101]

I have no problem with that perspective.

Hey I just look at a ball player as a ball player and race just plays no part in it for me. I freely admit without Vick Atlanta suffers because he is such a great athlete but I think Atlanta will continue to struggle to make it to the SB as long as Vick struggles with the passing game.

[aikemirv]

Well, if I saw a white guy run like that I would be in awe, cause I have never seen one run like that before.

When I see a black guy run like that, I am in awe, but I have seen one run like that before (Barry Sanders) so it is not surprising.

What does that have to do with the fact that up to this point in time he has proven to be an inconsistent passer who does not stay in the pocket long enough for his receivers to get open at times, and if not for his running skills is a very average, or less than that passing QB.

Yes, he wins games, no question aboiut that, but he self proclaims that he is the "best in the business" without proving it on the field.

[Yakuza Rich]

Anybody hear Wilbon say that when people question Vick's ability to pass it is a racial thing ?

He went on to say that if a blonde haired white guy won games but didn't pass well he would be a hero.

:eek: :confused:

Hey Wilbon, Vick is already considered a hero by the overwhelming majority of the fans in the league.

You might want to point that out.


Rich......
Wilbon forgets that JP Losman was lambasted by the Buffalo fans for running too much instead of passing effectively. And oh yeah, Steve Young had the same problems as well in his career.

[Kangaroo]

Well, if I saw a white guy run like that I would be in awe, cause I have never seen one run like that before.

When I see a black guy run like that, I am in awe, but I have seen one run like that before (Barry Sanders) so it is not surprising.

What does that have to do with the fact that up to this point in time he has proven to be an inconsistent passer who does not stay in the pocket long enough for his receivers to get open at times, and if not for his running skills is a very average, or less than that passing QB.

Yes, he wins games, no question aboiut that, but he self proclaims that he is the "best in the business" without proving it on the field.

In other words he is Kyle Boller with better running skills cause that Blonde hair guy suxs and was a bad draft day reach I questioned

[NorTex]

I don't understand how you can bring up the race card on this issue...that's just stupid.

Once upon a time in Chicago, a long time ago, there was a QB named Bobby Douglas. He was as white as you could be...he was alot like Vick...great runner, horrible passer. People used to say the same things they're saying about Vick...he needs to pass better...

[Phoenix-Talon]

I think it is time to change your sig :)

Whats the Eagle spin on the TO situation anyway?

I'm sure if this was a Redskins thing Art would be spouting off about how he was overrated anyway.


SSSShhhhhhhhh! Darn it -- didn't think anyone would notice that! I've already placed some requests in for a different banner.

Seriously, that's a rough question for me ...a good question, but just difficult. I suppose T.O. does have some issues he needs to resolve -- but certainly not at the expense of the Eagles potential to come together as a team.

While I thought his little suarray (uncertain spelling) with the press to denigrate the Eagles and players was the last straw, but his incident with Hugh Douglas was utterly unsound judgement by a professional "millionaire" athlete. Looking back at several prior T.O. related incidents, it all comes together that he was responding to situations in an unhealthy manner detrimental to the team.

My only interest about T.O. at this juncture is that I'm curious to determine where he will be employed next, and how will he work out at that location; knowing that he will be on his best behavior.

I have to give kudos to Andy Reid and the entire Eagles organization for standing tall under this type of adversity. This situation could have exploded into something much uglier. Perhap the Eagles will respond to this transition like a ...Phoenix being born out of the ashes of fire!;)


In fact, I'm removing my banner as an act of support for the Eagles.

[joseephuss]

I didn't hear Wilbon's comments, so I don't know the context of his statements. I don't think that race is the biggest issue with people's impressions of Vick, but I do think that race plays a small part in evaluating Vick. I don't think it plays a big part or matters to the vast marjority of fans; however, I do think there is a small(and I emphasize the small) percentage of people who factor in Vick's race when they evaluate him as an NFL QB.

There is always a small percentage of people that can't see past skin color and it goes both ways.

There are a few that will never like Vick because he is black. They also don't like McNair, McNabb or Culpepper. Their racial hatred effects their ability to evaluate from a pure football standpoint. That is why they will lump these QBs all into the same category such as they are all running QBs. That is obviously not the case. These four QBs have very distinctive and different QB styles from each other, yet because they are black, they all play the same.

There are also a few that can't see anything wrong with Vick because he is black. They can't be critical of him at all, but if he were white, it would be easy to crticize him.

To me it is obvious. Vick is the product of the hype machine. He is hyped so much that some people get tired of seeing him. They hope he fails so the media stops hyping him. Same with Peyton Manning. That is why people hate the Yankees, the Lakers and the Cowboys.

[WV Cowboy]

I have to give kudos to Andy Reid and the entire Eagles organization for standing tall under this type of adversity. This situation could have exploded into something much uglier.
Dude, I know you are a philly homer, but you can't believe all of that.

If they were standing tall they would have done this long ago, and I don't see how it could have gotten much uglier.

[slick325]

Give me wins and I am happy. If I win more games with my QB playing than I do without him who cares if he throws for 300 plus yards or not? The man has won his 1st playoff start ever in of all places hallowed Green Bay against "Mr. 300 plus yard games" Brett Farve and he lead his team to the NFC Championship game all by 25 years old going into his 5th season. What else do you want?

[Dale]

White and black quarterbacks are all criticized for their shortcomings (well, maybe other than Brett Favre LOL).

Peyton Manning has long carried the label of being unable to win big games. Jake Plummer has always been considered erratic. Brian Griese as unreliable, often being (jokingly?) referred to as a 'drunk' because of some of his past behaviors; Kerry Collins, too, for that matter.

Criticizing Vick's inability to consistently throw the ball is no different. It's a weakness. Like Manning's weakness, he has done enough to show that he is competent and can win games; but still, it's a weakness that lingers until proven wrong.

And despite Vick claiming he proved his doubters wrong, one 220-yard passing effort is not the vindication he should be desiring.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Give me wins and I am happy. If I win more games with my QB playing than I do without him who cares if he throws for 300 plus yards or not? The man has won his 1st playoff start ever in of all places hallowed Green Bay against "Mr. 300 plus yard games" Brett Farve and he lead his team to the NFC Championship game all by 25 years old going into his 5th season. What else do you want?

I want people to stop insinuating racisam because you may not share the opinion that Vick is a great QB.

It is not a difficult concept.

[joseephuss]

White and black quarterbacks are all criticized for their shortcomings (well, maybe other than Brett Favre LOL).

Peyton Manning has long carried the label of being unable to win big games. Jake Plummer has always been considered erratic. Brian Griese as unreliable, often being (jokingly?) referred to as a 'drunk' because of some of his past behaviors; Kerry Collins, too, for that matter.

Criticizing Vick's inability to consistently throw the ball is no different. It's a weakness. Like Manning's weakness, he has done enough to show that he is competent and can win games; but still, it's a weakness that lingers until proven wrong.

And despite Vick claiming he proved his doubters wrong, one 220-yard passing effort is not the vindication he should be desiring.

Plummer is erratic. :)

[Chocolate Lab]

And despite Vick claiming he proved his doubters wrong, one 220-yard passing effort is not the vindication he should be desiring.That was hilarious... "I passed for 226 yards, so I don't want to ever have to answer the question again that I can't be a pocket passer." :laugh2:

[Chuck 54]

No big deal....blasting Vick for not doing a better job in the passing game is stupid to begin with. It's just like blasting Peyton Manning for not winning the SB.

NO matter how great Peyton passes the ball or how many TD's he throws, until he wins a SB, the knock on him will be that he's not a great pressure game QB.

No matter how many games the FAlcons win behind Vick's running/passing and how many games they lose with a more traditional passer in the game in his place, until Vick wins a SB, he'll always be the running QB who doesn't throw well-enough.

Both are stupid shots at great QB's who win games for their teams, but we will attack any QB who hasn't won the big game for something.

This is not a black/white issue, just as attacking Manning is not a black/white issue....it's about guys who see a supposedly great QB who hasn't won the SB and acting like they know what the hell they're talking about by finding fault with something about him to explain why he can't win it all.

Lucky thing Favre got his 1 SB trophy or all we'd hear about him is that he's a great gunslinger of a QB who takes too many risks and throws too many INT's because he plays out of control, so he'll never win the big one.

Even the great Dallas Cowboys behind Tom Landry were the team that couldn't win the big one, just as the Buffalo Bills had something terribly wrong with them for going to the SB 4 years in a row and not winning any.

It's stupid and shortsighted and arrogant, but it's not racial.

[Doomsday101]

I didn't hear Wilbon's comments, so I don't know the context of his statements. I don't think that race is the biggest issue with people's impressions of Vick, but I do think that race plays a small part in evaluating Vick. I don't think it plays a big part or matters to the vast marjority of fans; however, I do think there is a small(and I emphasize the small) percentage of people who factor in Vick's race when they evaluate him as an NFL QB.

There is always a small percentage of people that can't see past skin color and it goes both ways.

There are a few that will never like Vick because he is black. They also don't like McNair, McNabb or Culpepper. Their racial hatred effects their ability to evaluate from a pure football standpoint. That is why they will lump these QBs all into the same category such as they are all running QBs. That is obviously not the case. These four QBs have very distinctive and different QB styles from each other, yet because they are black, they all play the same.

There are also a few that can't see anything wrong with Vick because he is black. They can't be critical of him at all, but if he were white, it would be easy to crticize him.

To me it is obvious. Vick is the product of the hype machine. He is hyped so much that some people get tired of seeing him. They hope he fails so the media stops hyping him. Same with Peyton Manning. That is why people hate the Yankees, the Lakers and the Cowboys.

I would agree there will always be a small portion who judge people on skin but by and large I don't think race plays a part what so ever. Fact is if Vick has to rely on his arm to get the job done he has shown a lot of weakness in that area of the game and considering he is a QB I would consider that a big part of being a NFL QB. His ability to run is up there with the best RB in the league but white or black does not change anything about his lack of talent when it comes to passing the ball. Also when it comes to critics of QB just as many white QB's get slammed and no one pulls the damn race card on those conversation and that is part of what hacks me off. A white QB is fair game but you question a black QB and now you’re a racist?

[Phoenix-Talon]

Dude, I know you are a philly homer, but you can't believe all of that.

I do! Here's my source (take that into consideration, but I believe the source)...

I arrived home from work yesterday and stopped to pay off my neighbor (the source).

Background: My neighbor played for the NBA and had to retire due to an injury (for confidentiality, I will Not reveal his name). I'm average height; he's 6'10, I drive a Linclon Navigator; he drives a Cadillac Escalade, I belong a fraternity; he belongs to a different fraternity, ...and finally, he is a Redskins fan ...

Alright, I told you all that because, this guy had no reason to lie to me. He goes on to tell me that an NBA buddy in Philly called him on the phone and was told by one of the guards that works in the Eagles locker room ...

that T.O. was in the whirl pool when Hugh Douglas can in and announced that " some of you &&%%...or whatevers are faking injuries and should be out on the field practicing." When T.O. heard that, he rushed out of the whirl pool, put on some draws and his tennis shoes, and started to beat up Hugh Douglas.
When he finished with Hugh, he confronted McNabb and others on the team to bring it if they wanted some of him. I was told that you could hear a Pin drop ...oh, and hugh Douglas is twice T.O. s size.

I'm convinced that this could have been worse for the team and for T.O. But one thing is certain, T.O. is as tough as they come. But he is no longer an Eagle problem.

You don't have to be a Homer to recognize someone that is detrimental to McNabb and the entire ball club.

[viman96]

Anybody hear Wilbon say that when people question Vick's ability to pass it is a racial thing ?

He went on to say that if a blonde haired white guy won games but didn't pass well he would be a hero.

:eek: :confused:

Steve Young was hung out to dry for running.

[Phoenix-Talon]

Hey I just look at a ball player as a ball player and race just plays no part in it for me. I freely admit without Vick Atlanta suffers because he is such a great athlete but I think Atlanta will continue to struggle to make it to the SB as long as Vick struggles with the passing game.

Sound, healthy view -- I'm good with that.

[Givincer]

Anybody hear Wilbon say that when people question Vick's ability to pass it is a racial thing ?

He went on to say that if a blonde haired white guy won games but didn't pass well he would be a hero.

:eek: :confused:

That is such a load of bs people criticize his passing because he is inaccurate. They don't criticize his arm he has a rocket ffs what they criticize is his passing ability which has been pretty atrocius thus far in his career. It doesn't matter as much though because he is still just as effective as the great quarterbacks who throw for over 7ypa he runs for 7ypa so every time he drops back to pass he can run for 7ypa which is still effective - maybe even more effective than a great passing game.

If a blond haired white guy was running around and doing the things michael vick was doing and passing the way michael vick has passed thus far in his career they would rip his passing ability just as bad. I don't think people really rip on mike vick's passing ability that much anyhow everbody realizes how effective he is as far as an overall part of the team. He may not throw up great passing numbers but it doesn't matter as far as being effective goes in his case or any guy's case no matter their color.

[lurkercowboy]

Wilbon. The Bizarro World Rush.

[slick325]

I want people to stop insinuating racisam because you may not share the opinion that Vick is a great QB.

It is not a difficult concept.

I can agree with you on that.

[Eddie]

Michael Vick, Michael Vick,
He so fast, He so quick
He run like a horse, He throw like a Jet
I just tellin you this so you'se won't fugget
Michael Vick is Superman without a cape
He liftin weights, He in incredible shape
It's not black or white or green or blue
Michael Vick is comin here to sock it to you!!!

[ABQCOWBOY]

Where's the little icon where the little guy is blowing chunks?

[Natedawg44]

When Vick plays the Falcons win. Everything else doesn't matter. Numbers this numbers that Who gives a crap they win. Vick is 31-16 as a starter. They are 9-19 when Vick doesn't play. How do you like those stats.

[ABQCOWBOY]

When Vick plays the Falcons win. Everything else doesn't matter. Numbers this numbers that Who gives a crap they win. Vick is 31-16 as a starter. They are 9-19 when Vick doesn't play. How do you like those stats.

When you show me the stat that speaks to championships, then I'll pay serious attention. Until that happens, it's of little value IMO. That's the way it works.

[joseephuss]

When you show me the stat that speaks to championships, then I'll pay serious attention. Until that happens, it's of little value IMO. That's the way it works.

So you don't like Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Danny White, Craig Morton or Don Meredith? :)

[jay cee]

No big deal....blasting Vick for not doing a better job in the passing game is stupid to begin with. It's just like blasting Peyton Manning for not winning the SB.

NO matter how great Peyton passes the ball or how many TD's he throws, until he wins a SB, the knock on him will be that he's not a great pressure game QB.

No matter how many games the FAlcons win behind Vick's running/passing and how many games they lose with a more traditional passer in the game in his place, until Vick wins a SB, he'll always be the running QB who doesn't throw well-enough.

Both are stupid shots at great QB's who win games for their teams, but we will attack any QB who hasn't won the big game for something.

This is not a black/white issue, just as attacking Manning is not a black/white issue....it's about guys who see a supposedly great QB who hasn't won the SB and acting like they know what the hell they're talking about by finding fault with something about him to explain why he can't win it all.
Lucky thing Favre got his 1 SB trophy or all we'd hear about him is that he's a great gunslinger of a QB who takes too many risks and throws too many INT's because he plays out of control, so he'll never win the big one.

Even the great Dallas Cowboys behind Tom Landry were the team that couldn't win the big one, just as the Buffalo Bills had something terribly wrong with them for going to the SB 4 years in a row and not winning any.

It's stupid and shortsighted and arrogant, but it's not racial.
:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

This is by far the post of the day. Thank you Wayne. Especially for the paragraph that I highlighted.

[jay cee]

So you don't like Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Danny White, Craig Morton or Don Meredith? :)
Yeah, he'd take Jim Plunkett and Trent Dilfer over all those guys.

[dbair1967]

When Vick plays the Falcons win. Everything else doesn't matter. Numbers this numbers that Who gives a crap they win. Vick is 31-16 as a starter. They are 9-19 when Vick doesn't play. How do you like those stats.

they were 9-19 because he missed basically one whole season there and the defense that one year was absolutely atrocious...had he played all 16 games they'd have still been blown out of those games

on the other hand the two years they did make the playoffs, they were near the top of the league in sacks and forced turnovers, and Vick had nothing to do with either of those numbers...

David

[trickblue]

they were 9-19 because he missed basically one whole season there and the defense that one year was absolutely atrocious...had he played all 16 games they'd have still been blown out of those games

on the other hand the two years they did make the playoffs, they were near the top of the league in sacks and forced turnovers, and Vick had nothing to do with either of those numbers...

David

DID TOO DID TOO!!! ;)

[ABQCOWBOY]

So you don't like Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Danny White, Craig Morton or Don Meredith? :)


Like em all Jossie. Just don't believe the criteria fits the discussion here. Don Meredith was good, Bart Starr is in the HOF. Danny White was good, Ron Jaworski won a championship and is on TV every nite. Craig Morton was good, Roger Staubach is the guy most of us believe was the best. Dan Marino, statistically, is the most prolific QB ever. Joe Montana is widely considered the best to ever play the game. The jury is still out on Peyton, and I do believe that he is going to win one this year, but until he does win it, I don't want to hear about him either. However, if he fails to win one, he will never be viewed in the same light as Brady.

You play the game to win championships. Everything else is 1st loser. Just the way I see it.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Yeah, he'd take Jim Plunkett and Trent Dilfer over all those guys.


See post immediatly above.

Thanks for playing.

[gimmesix]

Its always about race. Stupid people. Well, its not like they have intelligent sportswriters or sportscasters. Ignorant, dumb and stupid.

Hey, if it had been a blond-haired, white guy who said that, you'd be calling him a hero. :D

[Alexander]

Anybody hear Wilbon say that when people question Vick's ability to pass it is a racial thing ?

He went on to say that if a blonde haired white guy won games but didn't pass well he would be a hero.

:eek: :confused:

Chris Simms is a blonde haired white guy who cannot hit the broad side of a barn either. Joey Harrington is not blonde, but he is as white bread as you get and he is awful and the media never hesitates to take a shot.

If Wilbon's ridiculous theory held true, people would be worshipping these two. They aren't. If anything, I think the media fawns over Vick, just like they do McNabb. But it is a "race" thing?

Vick needs to become a better passer, less of a runner and win a championship and his critics will shut up.

[dbair1967]

Vick needs to become a better passer, less of a runner and win a championship and his critics will shut up.

I'd add that he needs to quit being a prima donna cry baby as well

and on another note, has there ever been a more protected player in football history? I've never seen so many pathetic 15yd flags thrown for a player in all my years of watching football...John Madden had the slip up of the yr when on the MNF opener when Vick got hit a little going out of bounds and a questionable flag was thrown, Madden said "but the league has to protect him, um them"...even Madden knows the score here with the league precious baby Vick

David

[joseephuss]

Chris Simms is a blonde haired white guy who cannot hit the broad side of a barn either. Joey Harrington is not blonde, but he is as white bread as you get and he is awful and the media never hesitates to take a shot.

If Wilbon's ridiculous theory held true, people would be worshipping these two. They aren't. If anything, I think the media fawns over Vick, just like they do McNabb. But it is a "race" thing?

Vick needs to become a better passer, less of a runner and win a championship and his critics will shut up.

But Simms and Harrington are not winning games. And I don't think Wilbon's comments were that all white QBs are loved no matter their performance.

Delhomme and Plummer are better examples. The past couple of seasons, their teams won games and got to the playoffs, but neither has won a Superbowl. Their passing wasn't that great. They both turned the ball over quite a bit, yet they don't seem to be criticized as much as Vick.

What is the reason that Vick appears to be criticized harsher than these guys? I don't know. I don't think it is race and that is a bad view by Wilbon. Racism still exists, but it isn't what is driving the criticism of Vick. Heck, Vick is also revered by lots of people. He just gets the most coverage of any player in the league. That makes his critics and praisers stick out more.

[dbair1967]

But Simms and Harrington are not winning games. And I don't think Wilbon's comments were that all white QBs are loved no matter their performance.

Delhomme and Plummer are better examples. The past couple of seasons, their teams won games and got to the playoffs, but neither has won a Superbowl. Their passing wasn't that great. They both turned the ball over quite a bit, yet they don't seem to be criticized as much as Vick.

What is the reason that Vick appears to be criticized harsher than these guys? I don't know. I don't think it is race and that is a bad view by Wilbon. Racism still exists, but it isn't what is driving the criticism of Vick. Heck, Vick is also revered by lots of people. He just gets the most coverage of any player in the league. That makes his critics and praisers stick out more.

Plummer has been one of the most criticized players in the league the past few seasons, dont know where you are getting that the media is easy on him...DelHomme is kinda a media darling, but nowhere to the level of Vick...Vick is w/o a doubt the most coddled athlete in sports now

David

[lurkercowboy]

Like em all Jossie. Just don't believe the criteria fits the discussion here. Don Meredith was good, Bart Starr is in the HOF. Danny White was good, Ron Jaworski won a championship and is on TV every nite. Craig Morton was good, Roger Staubach is the guy most of us believe was the best. Dan Marino, statistically, is the most prolific QB ever. Joe Montana is widely considered the best to ever play the game. The jury is still out on Peyton, and I do believe that he is going to win one this year, but until he does win it, I don't want to hear about him either. However, if he fails to win one, he will never be viewed in the same light as Brady.

You play the game to win championships. Everything else is 1st loser. Just the way I see it.

Jaworski won an NFC championship, true.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Jaworski won an NFC championship, true.

Of course, it's Philly we're talking about. This is true and thank you. A mistake like that should cost me my posting rights. Please accept my humble appoligies.

;)

[ABQCOWBOY]

Plummer has been one of the most criticized players in the league the past few seasons, dont know where you are getting that the media is easy on him...DelHomme is kinda a media darling, but nowhere to the level of Vick...Vick is w/o a doubt the most coddled athlete in sports now

David


I agree with this. Plummer has long been criticised for his patience, mechanics and accuracy. Delhomme, not nearly as much but then again, he wasn't a 1st round, 1st player taken in any draft. He was an undrafted FA so the investment on return is not looked upon the same way.

In truth, I see this more as a situation where Vick has long been heralded as the coming of the best QB in the league. Possibly ever, according to some. There have been many who say that his scrambles will not hurt his ability to QB but help it. On the other hand, just as many have long said that he has to learn to throw the ball before any of the rest will help him. Expectations are not the same because Vick is talked of as the best in waiting. The other two are not.

[Chuck 54]

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

This is by far the post of the day. Thank you Wayne. Especially for the paragraph that I highlighted.
Get one young one...off your knees...I require nothing but your allegiance...lol.

[Natedawg44]

they were 9-19 because he missed basically one whole season there and the defense that one year was absolutely atrocious...had he played all 16 games they'd have still been blown out of those games
Alright thats a flat out guess total pure speculation no more no less
2002 Vick plays 15 games- Playoffs
2003 essentially the same team with Vick injured and playing 5 games- they suck
2004 Vick plays 15 games- Playoffs
2005 Vick 7 starts- 6 wins

on the other hand the two years they did make the playoffs, they were near the top of the league in sacks and forced turnovers, and Vick had nothing to do with either of those numbers...
Bottomline is he has one of the highest winning percentage of any QB in the NFL right now. They were a playoff team with him in 2002 and won on the road in Green Bay He then gets hurt the next year and what happens they suck and don't make the playoffs. Last year he plays 15 games. Guess what Playoffs. He's played 7 games this year. Guess what 6 wins. So its easy to see he plays 15 games = playoffs. If he's injured they suck and lose.

[bbgun]

Let me get this straight: if you're Fisher DeBerry or Joe Paterno, you're not allowed to compliment a black athlete. On the other hand, you can't criticize one either without invoking the "r" word. Just dandy.

[JackMagist]

This thread has just gotten me to thinking about the black QBs in the league. I am not being racist with the following. It is hard to discuss this subject without coming off as racist but I am merely making some observations about the black QBs in the league.

I really can't recall any truly top notch black "pocket passers." Of the best and most effective of the black QBs Culpepper, McNair and McNabb are all better moving or running than they are in the pocket. Yes they can all throw the ball but they seem to make more plays on the move than hanging in the pocket. While they are effective (two of them have been to the SB and McNair very nearly won it) they are not great pure pocket passers in the mold of a Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Dan Fouts or Troy Aikman.

McNabb especially is much more dangerous moving than hanging in the pocket; his throws are much more accurate when he is on the move. In the pocket he is subject to throw into the ground or hang his receiver out to dry but moving he is deadly accurate. The same can be said for Culpepper and McNair to a lesser extent. McNair is probably the best of the lot in the pocket but he and Culpepper are very similar. The best black pocket passer that I can recall was Doug Williams (the only black QB to ever win the SB) and he tended to be better on the move when he was young before Gibbs got him in Washington. Now I am not sure why this is. Perhaps the black QBs in the league are just naturally more athletic and therefore find it easier to play using their athleticism.

Of the other black starting QBs in the league of course Vick is Vick...not much to add on that. And Aaron Brooks is just not that good of a QB regardless of his style. He is inconsistent and will likely find himself replaced pretty soon. As for Leftwich; I have not seen enough of him to comment on his play.

[Alexander]

Of the best and most effective of the black QBs Culpepper, McNair and McNabb are all better moving or running than they are in the pocket.

I disagree. Give Culpepper time to sit back in the pocket, he can kill you with a deep pass. So can Byron Leftwich. Vick, McNabb and McNair fit the "stereotype". But I do not subscribe to the theory that black QBs cannot be pocket passers. Doug Williams was as pocket as they come. So was James Harris. So was Warren Moon.

[Derinyar]

Vick right now does help his team win, but is a medicore QB. If Vick's ability to move is at all hampered in a game, he is going to be removed, because at this point hes shown no ability to beat a team consistetnly with his arm. In the long run a QB will have to be able to be a consistent threat throwing the ball to be successful. I don't think Vick will get there, because too many people are already telling him hes great which likely makes him doubt the fact that he needs to improve.

McNabb, in my mind, is a more complete QB than Vick is. He realized he had to become better throwing the ball, and has worked on it and has gotten better.

[MarionBarberThe4th]

No one said Vick is garbage, or shouldnt be playing QB, they said that his passing has not progressed, and its true.

Hes still one of the most valuable players in the league, but hell never really be a pocket passer.

This is about as racist as when on their show they made an all time white team of NBA players

[Alexander]

Vick right now does help his team win, but is a medicore QB. If Vick's ability to move is at all hampered in a game, he is going to be removed, because at this point hes shown no ability to beat a team consistetnly with his arm. In the long run a QB will have to be able to be a consistent threat throwing the ball to be successful. I don't think Vick will get there, because too many people are already telling him hes great which likely makes him doubt the fact that he needs to improve.

McNabb, in my mind, is a more complete QB than Vick is. He realized he had to become better throwing the ball, and has worked on it and has gotten better.

Absolutely.

McNabb has honed his deep ball and is now considered complete (at least by me).

Vick is the opposite. He has next to no touch. Even Brian Finneran has stated that it takes a while to get used to his passes because he throws a very uncatchable football with way too much behind it.

[JackMagist]

I disagree. Give Culpepper time to sit back in the pocket, he can kill you with a deep pass. So can Byron Leftwich. Vick, McNabb and McNair fit the "stereotype". But I do not subscribe to the theory that black QBs cannot be pocket passers. Doug Williams was as pocket as they come. So was James Harris. So was Warren Moon.I won't argue the point about Culpepper; I have seen him do some very good work in the pocket but he is also very effective on the move. And again I have not seen that much of Leftwich and honestly when I have seen him he has been injured and hobbling so again...no comment on him. Williams was indeed a good pocket passer (as I mentioned) though it was hard to tell early on when he was with Tampa Bay; there he had to run because he never had time to throw. Moons record speaks for itself he was a great passer; he just slipped my mind. James Harris?...I draw a complete blank on him but on the other side Kordell Stewart was another starter who fit the mold.

Again I never meant to imply that a black QB "couldn't" be a great pocket passer or that none ever had been. My point was that especially with the black QBs currently in the league there are a higher percentage of them who are not at their best in the pocket. While unfair to some of the black QBs the "stereotype" exists fore a reason; it does fit a high percentage of black QBs.

[JackMagist]

Absolutely.

McNabb has honed his deep ball and is now considered complete (at least by me).

Vick is the opposite. He has next to no touch. Even Brian Finneran has stated that it takes a while to get used to his passes because he throws a very uncatchable football with way too much behind it.I also consider McNabb a good QB and he does have a fine deep ball. But I still maintain that in the pocket he throws too many into the ground or too high. He is especially hampered by this with his short to intermediate passes. I do not fear McNabb if we can keep him in the pocket or even carrying the ball downfield but when we let him start to run around in the backfield he kills us with his impromptu playmaking ability.

[Alexander]

While unfair to some of the black QBs the "stereotype" exists fore a reason; it does fit a high percentage of black QBs.

There are exactly 14 black QBs in the NFL right now:

Cleo Lemon, Miami
Anthony Wright, Baltimore
Kordell Stewart, Baltimore
Charlie Batch, Pittsburgh
Tony Banks, Houston
Byron Leftwich, Jacksonville
David Gerrard, Jacksonville
Steve McNair, Tennessee
Seneca Wallace, Seattle
Michael Vick, Atlanta
Daunte Culpepper, Minnesota
Jeff Blake, Chicago
Jason Campbell, Washington
Donovan McNabb, Philadelphia

Save Stewart, McNair, Vick and Wallace, I fail to see any QBs who fit the "mobile" stereotype.

[MarionBarberThe4th]

Culpepper can run



Wright can get you a first with his legs at times, hes no Vick, but he can move
Mcnabb is mobile

[JackMagist]

There are exactly 14 black QBs in the NFL right now:

Cleo Lemon, Miami
Anthony Wright, Baltimore
Kordell Stewart, Baltimore
Charlie Batch, Pittsburgh
Tony Banks, Houston
Byron Leftwich, Jacksonville
David Gerrard, Jacksonville
Steve McNair, Tennessee
Seneca Wallace, Seattle
Michael Vick, Atlanta
Daunte Culpepper, Minnesota
Jeff Blake, Chicago
Jason Campbell, Washington
Donovan McNabb, Philadelphia

Save Stewart, McNair, Vick and Wallace, I fail to see any QBs who fit the "mobile" stereotype.You forgot Aaron Brooks who is also a mobile guy though he appears to be trying to learn to be a pocket passer. I haven't seen Wright play recently but he was a mobile type player when he was with Dallas before he had the knee sergury. And again Culpepper while capable of being a pocket passer is none-the-less a mobile guy and makes many plays on the move. And I was keeping my discussion to current or recent starters in the league but you are right about Batch, Blake, Banks and Gerrard.

So to Stewart, McNair, Vick and Wallace I would add Brooks, Wright (at one point at least) and Culpepper. That is 7 out of 15 which I maintain is a pretty high percentage.

[jbsg02]

i hate the race card

[EveryoneElse]

I didn't read any posts in this thread besides Mr. Wilbon's statement, which was idiotic. Vick simply can't throw a football as well as 90% of the starting QBs in the NFL. Put a 2 in front of his 7, and let him run the ball 25 times a game. He's a runningback who happens to have rare arm strength, but no accuracy.

He'd suck if he was white too.

Great athlete, Lousy QB.

[joseephuss]

I think it becomes more youth and inexperience. A black QB may face it more often, but the reality is that it applies to any good athlete playing QB. Not just inexperience on the players part, but of their coaches as well.

A high school coach may stick a great athlete at the QB position and tells them to make plays. They don't encourage them to stay in the pocket. Heck, I think a majority of high school offensive schemes still depend on the QB running the ball quite a bit. Those are the easiest schemes to teach at that level and some coaches don't know any other way. They can't teach passing schemes because they don't know them. By the way, I always heard to stick the best athlete at wide receiver or running back at the high school and lower levels. The QB had less impact on the offense in teams that didn't focus on passing the ball.

The same thing applies at the college level to a lesser extent. You can see a transition to more pro-style or spread passing schemes, but for a long time teams stuck to running the ball and/or having a running QB. Having a QB sit in the pocket and constantly beat teams with his arm wasn't the priority in a lot of programs.

I look at programs in the Big 12 and the SEC. Seems like every school in those conferences is starting to set passing records. OU had Josh Heupel come in and set school records in just 2 seasons because they ran the wishbone and power running schemes for so long. A QB wasn't going to learn to be a good passer in the Switzer system. That is partially why Aikman transferred to UCLA. College programs are really starting to use passing schemes more and more and bringing in guys that know how to coach them.

[Doomsday101]

I don't anyone is saying the falcons are better off without Vick. The guy is a heck of an athlete but face it for a Professional QB is passing flat out sucks, take away his legs and he can't do the job. Some may want that in their QB I clearly don't. We have a running back that can carry the ball but I feel you need a QB who can offset the run with the ability to pass especially when you fall behind in a game. As for the article I do recent this writer for playing the race card because you get down to it no one is claiming Vick’s problem is that he is black only claiming for a QB his passing skills are bad.

[Hoov]

My take on NFL QB's that are great runners and not great passers.....

All QB's look to make plays and avoid sacks, most rookie and inexperienced NFL QB's panic and try to run when the pressure is on and they dont see a receiver open, its just a natural reaction, even the really slow ones do it.

The thing is, if your not a great runner, you find out real quick that you wont be getting the first down by scrambling cause defense are so fast in the nfl, and you get smacker around pretty good (see that hit on that SF QB last week - he made # 2 on "all jacked up).

But if you ARE a great runner, you can get away with it, and you start getting first downs, so the instinct or impulse to run gets stronger - (success breeds success), and the coaches wont be reaming you so much for doing it.

So actually, if you are a great running QB, i think it can really slow down your development as a pocket passer, cause you bail on the pass to soon.

But if you are not a great running QB, you give up on running early in your career and just learn to hang in there and look for the pass, cause its all you have.

[ravidubey]

Wilbon called it a racial thing when Gary Kubiak was rumored to be a candidate for the Dallas Cowboys head coaching spot in 1998. He's a buffoon when it comes to issues of race-- zero credibility.