Oline- Terrible drafting or terrible coaching?

[ZiggyZ.]

Pull out your old draft guides and read about these guys:
Andre Gurode
Al Johnson
Jacob Rogers
Stephen Peterman
Torrin Tucker

These 5 guys were supposed to be absolute maulers, and all were expected to be gone by the 2nd round, as all but Tucker were.

So what is the problem? The Boys draft room clearly agreed with the pundits as they took 4 of these guys really high in the draft. Yet they all are deficient.

So were these guys bad picks, or did they receive poor coaching?

[Rush 2112]

3 major injuries in AJ, Rogers and Peterman, Gurode a bust+sprinkle in some possible bad coaching.

[acheman]

I would actually blame in order of impact #1injuries and age, then #2 coaching, then #3 drafting.

[Hiero]

drafting.

[DezBRomo9]

In one word...Both.

First, we went after one dimensional guys, like Al-Undersized pass blocker, Andre-Physical but not smart, Rogers-Pure pass blocker with no strength, Peterman-Physical but not smart, and Tucker-Has everything needed to be a ProBowl OG except for smarts...
And secondly, not bringing in the coaches to make these guys stronger, smarter and more confident.

We need to cut our losses and completely rebuild the Oline from the coach up.

[Clove]

Pull out your old draft guides and read about these guys:
Andre Gurode
Al Johnson
Jacob Rogers
Stephen Peterman
Torrin Tucker

These 5 guys were supposed to be absolute maulers, and all were expected to be gone by the 2nd round, as all but Tucker were.

So what is the problem? The Boys draft room clearly agreed with the pundits as they took 4 of these guys really high in the draft. Yet they all are deficient.

So were these guys bad picks, or did they receive poor coaching?No dang way all of these guys can be busts. I'd have to say that OLINE coaching will need a significant up grade or tongue lashing this offseason.

[DezBRomo9]

Actually with a great Oline coach that could be our Oline for the future
LT-Rogers
LG-Peterman
C-Johnson
RG-Gurode
RT=Tucker
Me likely if we can coach them well enough.

[Eddie]

How did we win 3 Super Bowls with no one drafted higher than a 2nd rounder???

Let's see:

Tui - converted DT. 12 year vet from old regime which no one wanted.
Nate Newton - FA who didn't pan out in the USFL or the Redskins.
Step - 2nd round pick
Kevin Gogan - low round draft pick.
Eric Williams - 4th rounder who turned into the best RT we ever had.

So what gives? Even after 1992, when we lost Stepnoski, we still won a Super Bowl with that guy from Seattle. He wound up missing the playoffs, and we won the SB with his backup.

[joseephuss]

Tucker wasn't drafted, so that is a positive for the scouting department. :D

[Juke99]

Rogers was an injury waiting to happen when he was drafted. .

There is also no personality to this line....unless "lousy" can be considered a personality...and most of that is coaching.

The O Line can benefit from good coaching as much as, if not more than, other positions. It's easier to make a serviceable offensive lineman than any other position. Yet, this line is a disaster.

I think it's a combination of drafting and coaching.

[Mike 1967]

Both

Although in all fairness.....Parcells inherited Allen and Flo went out with an injury.

The LT is almost as important as the QB in todays NFL. That position is so expensive that you cannot affort to carry a quality backup at that position.

Last year the Redskins lost their starting tackle....and their running game was nowhere near what it is this year.

[Alexander]

In one word...Both.

First, we went after one dimensional guys, like Al-Undersized pass blocker, Andre-Physical but not smart, Rogers-Pure pass blocker with no strength, Peterman-Physical but not smart, and Tucker-Has everything needed to be a ProBowl OG except for smarts...
And secondly, not bringing in the coaches to make these guys stronger, smarter and more confident.

We need to cut our losses and completely rebuild the Oline from the coach up.

It is both.

We obviously tried something different this year because one of the reasons Warhop was fired was because of his difference in "philosophy" from Coach Parcells.

We also had some untimely injuries and some very bad talent.

[joseephuss]

How did we win 3 Super Bowls with no one drafted higher than a 2nd rounder???

Let's see:

Tui - converted DT. 12 year vet from old regime which no one wanted.
Nate Newton - FA who didn't pan out in the USFL or the Redskins.
Step - 2nd round pick
Kevin Gogan - low round draft pick.
Eric Williams - 4th rounder who turned into the best RT we ever had.

So what gives? Even after 1992, when we lost Stepnoski, we still won a Super Bowl with that guy from Seattle. He wound up missing the playoffs, and we won the SB with his backup.

Ray Donaldson was a very good center and well regarded. It was a great pick up by Dallas in 1995. Too bad he got hurt at the end of the year. The running game was clearly not as good when he wasn't there. Still good enough to win the Superbowl with Derek Kinnard.

You also left out that Step got hurt at the end of the 93 season. John Gesek was the center in Superbowl 28.

I guess coaching went a long ways back then and a little luck that some of these guys panned out. That and Irvin, Aikman and Smith really were that good. They lifted up everyone else around them.

[Clove]

Actually with a great Oline coach that could be our Oline for the future
LT-Rogers
LG-Peterman
C-Johnson
RG-Gurode
RT=Tucker
Me likely if we can coach them well enough.Take Johnson off of that list please. And Tucker shouldn't be at that position either...

[demdcowboys#1]

I think Gurode is a decent O lineman. I mean with a good offseason and OL coach, we could see some drastic improvement in him. I think he has loads of potential, i wanna see him back!!

As for tucker, johnson-----"Get them outta here"

[StanleySpadowski]

It's terrible coaching/chemistry.


Look at the successful lines. Pittsburgh plugs in darn near any backup and runs over almost any defense. Why, because every lineman they have has the same strengths and they fit the mauling scheme. Same can be said for Atlanta (starting Lehr) or Denver both with 5 mobile guys.

Dallas has a mauler with decent mobility in Adams, Allen's mobility makes Bledsoe look like Vick, Johnson's strength is his mobility as is Rivera's. Pettiti is a mauling type without the power to do it yet.

Instead of going together like peanut butter and jelly, the mishmashed styles go together like peanut butter and mayonaise.

[Clove]

It's terrible coaching/chemistry.


Look at the successful lines. Pittsburgh plugs in darn near any backup and runs over almost any defense. Why, because every lineman they have has the same strengths and they fit the mauling scheme. Same can be said for Atlanta (starting Lehr) or Denver both with 5 mobile guys.

Dallas has a mauler with decent mobility in Adams, Allen's mobility makes Bledsoe look like Vick, Johnson's strength is his mobility as is Rivera's. Pettiti is a mauling type without the power to do it yet.

Instead of going together like peanut butter and jelly, the mishmashed styles go together like peanut butter and mayonaise.Good point. Maybe they need to decide what type of running scheme is going to work for which side. I don't ever want to see LA pulling again as long as we both shall live.

And I don't want to see Johnson period, he's a good pulling blocker, but can't get push off the line.. And tucker is a 2nd string guard at best. Petitti should not be on the roster.

[Jarv]

We mixed philosophies, athletic linemen vs. road pavers. Denver, Indy...teams like that have athletic linemen that can pull and trap. KC and Oakland like the big powerful bruisers that just run you over. We never really established an identity on which way we wanted to go.

BP inherited LA and Flozel. So we were halfway into the bruising line. Al Johnson, Lehr, Rogers were the more athletic types.

We should choose our path and pick up via FA and draft all in the same mode.

[kmd24]

There is a little lag time with OL development (as opposed to, say, RB). Even Robert Gallery, Jordan Gross, and Shawn Andrews struggled at times early on. Tucker is a converted guard and Petitti a converted LT. Johnson and Peterman suffered serious injuries, hampering their development.

To my untrained eye, it looked like Petitti and Tucker could not make adjustments as opponents gathered more game tape on them. Both had moderate success early on but struggled progressively more as the season wore on.

I am also of the opinion that Pettiti hit the wall late, something common for rookies but perhaps moreso for a guy who dropped, what, 50 pounds, in a relatively short time frame. The year I lost 40 pounds in about 30 weeks, I was noticeably weaker for about 6 months. I am not an elite athlete, though.

There is still time for these guys to turn the corner. Not saying they will, but I don't think the final chapter has been written for all of them yet.

[TunaFan33]

Pull out your old draft guides and read about these guys:
Andre Gurode
Al Johnson
Jacob Rogers
Stephen Peterman
Torrin Tucker

These 5 guys were supposed to be absolute maulers, and all were expected to be gone by the 2nd round, as all but Tucker were.

So what is the problem? The Boys draft room clearly agreed with the pundits as they took 4 of these guys really high in the draft. Yet they all are deficient.

So were these guys bad picks, or did they receive poor coaching?

To me, coaching is the problem more than anything else. Aside from that girly-man Rogers, the rest of the list still looks OK to me.

Frankly, that 02 Super Bowl Tampa team had an OL worse than our's now(their young, inexperienced RT, Kenyada Walker, was worse than what our Rob Petitti is now-and he had to learn
Gruden's complex schemes to boot).

However-Tampa showed alot of progress that year b/c of just that-COACHING. Say all you want how Al and Rob suck badly, but they REGRESSED late in the season-which is when young players START TO PROGRESS.

[trueblue1687]

Pull out your old draft guides and read about these guys:
Andre Gurode
Al Johnson
Jacob Rogers
Stephen Peterman
Torrin Tucker

These 5 guys were supposed to be absolute maulers, and all were expected to be gone by the 2nd round, as all but Tucker were.

So what is the problem? The Boys draft room clearly agreed with the pundits as they took 4 of these guys really high in the draft. Yet they all are deficient.

So were these guys bad picks, or did they receive poor coaching?

Gurode would be a pretty good Guard where the mental living is easy, but center requires a little too much thought for him. Has all the physical skills to get it done. Needs: better coaching (or more coaching) and position change.

Johnson is too small and can't use technique (only average) to compensate like Stepnoski did in the 90's. Both are about the same size if Johnson is not even a little bigger. Step was/is a pothead, Johnson a drunk. Fix: ride the pine or cut/trade(would be REAL lucky to trade)

Jacob Rogers is injury prone and probably was onr of those guys who bulked up way to quick for the rest of his supporting structure to keep up (connective tissues). Smart guy, but not for NFL.

Peterman is a pretty smart guy too, from what I've heard. Don't know what his problem is other than not playing and maybe lack of good coaching??

Tucker is retarded. He has all the physical skills except his feet are a bit slow for Tackle. Maybe a pretty decent guard, but flip flopping guys to different positions probably exacerbated (Tucker wouldn't know what that meant) his problems. I don't mean to sound like I hate the guy. I think he tries to play, but again...If you have ever heard him speak, the guy is mentally a notch or two above skidmark.

On another note, does anyone remember the guy who played guard for Dallas in the 90's that was nicknamed "big baby". Had some sort of heart condition or something that cut his career short. Driving me nuts tryin to remember his name.

[Yeagermeister]

Actually with a great Oline coach that could be our Oline for the future
LT-Rogers
LG-Peterman
C-Johnson
RG-Gurode
RT=Tucker
Me likely if we can coach them well enough.
Umm and Just where is Flozell? :D

[Maikeru-sama]

Rogers was an injury waiting to happen when he was drafted. .


Yep, Never really understood why Parcells took the risk, especially since he is known to get on players who are injury prone.

[Portland Fanatic]

It's really both...we must upgrade oline coach though...a must!

I have a hard time thinking our talent is that bad...as bad as they played.

Rogers was a mistake!
Peterman??? Who knows...he's never seen the field.
Gurode??? All the physical talent...why no production? Him or crappy coaching?
Tucker was undrafted! Why do we expect anything from this guy....cut him lose!

Big Al Johnson...most of the this board was moaning about why he did not make the pro-bowl in 2004...what the he11 happened??? Coaching???

Rivera and LA??? These guys are not bad.....

~ We need a huge upgrade at oline coach!
~ A top OT

Then let's see what we get....

[kartr]

I think it's both because Parcells' struggles with personnel handling. I saw a publication that showed that one of the teams that had drafted worse than the Cowboys was the Jets when Parcells was there. Al Johnson,Jacob Rogers and Kevin Burnette all carried huge injury concerns. Tucker was a guard in college and they've moved him to tackle. Gurode was a better guard than center in college and they've moved him all over the place and when they had him at guard, we had lousy right tackles. I'd say that our most consistent OL over the last 3 years have been Flozell Adams,Larry Allen and Andre Gurode, all of which were drafted post-Jimmy and before Parcells. That says it all.

[TunaFan33]

I think it's both because Parcells' struggles with personnel handling. I saw a publication that showed that one of the teams that had drafted worse than the Cowboys was the Jets when Parcells was there. Al Johnson,Jacob Rogers and Kevin Burnette all carried huge injury concerns. Tucker was a guard in college and they've moved him to tackle. Gurode was a better guard than center in college and they've moved him all over the place and when they had him at guard, we had lousy right tackles. I'd say that our most consistent OL over the last 3 years have been Flozell Adams,Larry Allen and Andre Gurode, all of which were drafted post-Jimmy and before Parcells. That says it all.

FWIW-Parcells has drafted players with his other teams that were injury prone as well(i.e. Curtis Martin). And rarely did any of them have recurring, career injury problems.

Like I said-the game has definitely passed him by.

[mr.jameswoods]

I think it's coaching! I live in Arizona so I keep with Cardinals information too. The Cardinals drafted several offensive lineman in the first round that continue to be busts. Leonard Davis was one of the best lineman I had ever seen play in college. He was just a beast. I mean there was no way this guy shouldn't have become a Pro Bowler by his second year. But in the Cardinals system, players like Davis can deteriorate fast. Talent-wise, the Cardinals should have had a dominant offensive line the past 3 years but their coaching is so mediocre that the talent isn't being utilized.

At the collegiate level, success as an O-lineman is much more about athleticism, size and power. At the NFL level, it seems like success as an O-lineman has more to do with skill and intelligence. That's why old guys like Bruce Matthews were dominant in their late years. It's not that they were stronger than everyone else, it's just their technique and skill was superb.

If you want to improve our offensive line, you will need to hire an assistant coach who knows how to coach OL's. Getting better talent alone will not solve anything.

[joseephuss]

I think it's both because Parcells' struggles with personnel handling. I saw a publication that showed that one of the teams that had drafted worse than the Cowboys was the Jets when Parcells was there. Al Johnson,Jacob Rogers and Kevin Burnette all carried huge injury concerns. Tucker was a guard in college and they've moved him to tackle. Gurode was a better guard than center in college and they've moved him all over the place and when they had him at guard, we had lousy right tackles. I'd say that our most consistent OL over the last 3 years have been Flozell Adams,Larry Allen and Andre Gurode, all of which were drafted post-Jimmy and before Parcells. That says it all.

Tucker wasn't drafted. He was an undrafted free agent. Maybe there isn't any coaching that can make him a good player. Maybe Dallas also needs a better medical staff. They need to be better at assessing pre-existing injury concerns to some of these draft picks.

[mr.jameswoods]

In one word...Both.

First, we went after one dimensional guys, like Al-Undersized pass blocker, Andre-Physical but not smart, Rogers-Pure pass blocker with no strength, Peterman-Physical but not smart, and Tucker-Has everything needed to be a ProBowl OG except for smarts...
And secondly, not bringing in the coaches to make these guys stronger, smarter and more confident.

We need to cut our losses and completely rebuild the Oline from the coach up.

I wish I would have read this reply before responding. I couldn't have said it better myself. Well done!! (standing applause)

[mr.jameswoods]

Tucker wasn't drafted. He was an undrafted free agent. Maybe there isn't any coaching that can make him a good player. Maybe Dallas also needs a better medical staff. They need to be better at assessing pre-existing injury concerns to some of these draft picks.

Or trainers

When Bob Stoops won his first championship at OU, SI had an article on the Sooners. John Blake was the head coach at OU prior to Stoops arrival and we had so many injuries on those teams. When Stoops and his trainer arrived at OU, he said the players were so out of shape and improperly trained. The players themselves admitted they hadn't been conditioned that well in the pre-season.

It's not a secret why guys like Jerry Rice, Karl Malone, Curtis Martin and other players lasted so long and played at a high level for so long: Training! These guys were known for working harder than anyone in the offseason.

[BlueStar22]

In fairness to Tucker, I went to school with him at Southern Miss, he played guard in college.

[Mike 1967]

Or trainers

When Bob Stoops won his first championship at OU, SI had an article on the Sooners. John Blake was the head coach at OU prior to Stoops arrival and we had so many injuries on those teams. When Stoops and his trainer arrived at OU, he said the players were so out of shape and improperly trained. The players themselves admitted they hadn't been conditioned that well in the pre-season.

It's not a secret why guys like Jerry Rice, Karl Malone, Curtis Martin and other players lasted so long and played at a high level for so long: Training! These guys were known for working harder than anyone in the offseason.

And don't forget Michael Irvin.

He had to retire do to the neck/spinal injury. But by all accounts the guy was a workhorse in practice and on the track.

[AbeBeta]

In one word...Both.

First, we went after one dimensional guys, like Al-Undersized pass blocker, Andre-Physical but not smart, Rogers-Pure pass blocker with no strength, Peterman-Physical but not smart, and Tucker-Has everything needed to be a ProBowl OG except for smarts..

college OL players who are 'one-dimensional' as you note end up drafted when? oh yeah, the second and third rounds.

[CalCBFan]

Ray Donaldson was a very good center and well regarded. It was a great pick up by Dallas in 1995. Too bad he got hurt at the end of the year. The running game was clearly not as good when he wasn't there. Still good enough to win the Superbowl with Derek Kinnard.

You also left out that Step got hurt at the end of the 93 season. John Gesek was the center in Superbowl 28.

I guess coaching went a long ways back then and a little luck that some of these guys panned out. That and Irvin, Aikman and Smith really were that good. They lifted up everyone else around them. This post reminded me of Barry Switzer. Most of the posters on most of these sites hated Switzer, but look at the players that wanted to play for him. How many times did he get Kinnard out of retirement to play for him? At least 2 I think. Didn't Tony Casillias come here on his way to reitrement? And I heard Billy Sims say in an interview, he'd put on the pads for Switzer any day. Of course he didn't guarantee any results. My point is I'm not sure we have coaches anymore that can motivate and influence our players to this extent...

[AbeBeta]

Terrible coaching? Does anyone remember pre-BP Flozell Adams? He was mediocre. Now he's a two time pro bowler who was clearly the most important guy on our line.

[StanleySpadowski]

Terrible coaching? Does anyone remember pre-BP Flozell Adams? He was mediocre. Now he's a two time pro bowler who was clearly the most important guy on our line.

I don't agree that pro bowls indicate quality seasons (see Vick, Michael or Allen, Larry) but Flozell's play pre-Parcells had nothing to do with physical ability or technique but motivation. Parcells can still motivate ceertain players.