I emailed Steve Hoffman and got a response!

[Cajuncowboy]

I was so ticked I decided to track him down and see if he was still available. Seems he is still interested in us. Here are the emails. The first was from me:

I just found your website and this email. If you are still available to coach, the Cowboys need you back badly. Firing you was the worst thing they could have done. If it were not for the bad kicking, the Boys would be in the playoffs. Anyway, I just wondered if you were with any other team or not.

Thanks Rob,

A Cowboys fan.

He also included his phone number in the email which shocked me but I will not include it here for obvious reasons.

Steve's reply:

Thanks for the kind thoughts, Rob.



I do consulting work for many NFL and major college teams now, helping out with their kickers, punters, and holders.



Perhaps someday the situation will change in Dallas and I will be able to return to the Cowboys, but for now I will do my best to be a positive influence on kickers and punters around the league and at the college level.

Sincerely,

Steve Hoffman



Let's get him on the phone Jerry. I have his number!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hostile]

I was so ticked I decided to track him down and see if he was still available. Seems he is still interested in us. Here are the emails. The first was from me:

I just found your website and this email. If you are still available to coach, the Cowboys need you back badly. Firing you was the worst thing they could have done. If it were not for the bad kicking, the Boys would be in the playoffs. Anyway, I just wondered if you were with any other team or not.

Thanks Rob,

A Cowboys fan.

He also included his phone number in the email which shocked me but I will not include it here for obvious reasons.

Steve's reply:

Thanks for the kind thoughts, Rob.



I do consulting work for many NFL and major college teams now, helping out with their kickers, punters, and holders.



Perhaps someday the situation will change in Dallas and I will be able to return to the Cowboys, but for now I will do my best to be a positive influence on kickers and punters around the league and at the college level.

Sincerely,

Steve Hoffman



Let's get him on the phone Jerry. I have his number!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Translation...as long as Parcells is Head Coach I won't be working there.

[boysfanindc]

You go Man!

Now can you get Dom?

[BigDFan5]

:bang2: Never has such a insignifigant coach gotten so much attention

[SDogo]

Translation...as long as Parcells is Head Coach I won't be working there.

He's not one of "Bills guys":rolleyes:

[NovaCowboy]

Another reason to hate Parcells.

[Cajuncowboy]

:bang2: Never has such a insignifigant coach gotten so much attention

Yeah, you're right. Our kickers sucked while he was here and when he left they were all brilliant. :rolleyes:

[Cajuncowboy]

Translation...as long as Parcells is Head Coach I won't be working there.

That's pretty much how I read it as well. :mad:

[BrAinPaiNt]

If we would actually get a respectable kicker....a kicking coach, and only the kicking coach, would not be needed in the first place.

However if you are going to go cheap and try to hit a homerun while swinging with a wiffle ball bat....then bring back hoffman.

[Cajuncowboy]

If we would actually get a respectable kicker....a kicking coach, and only the kicking coach, would not be needed in the first place.

However if you are going to go cheap and try to hit a homerun while swinging with a wiffle ball bat....then bring back hoffman.

Which is obviously what we are doing.

[BigDFan5]

Yeah, you're right. Our kickers sucked while he was here and when he left they were all brilliant. :rolleyes:


go look it up our kickers were 74% this year and last year a whopping 76% under Hoffman the great. Big friggin difference

[Cajuncowboy]

go look it up our kickers were 74% this year and last year a whopping 76% under Hoffman the great. Big friggin difference

The big friggin difference is how they perform in crunch time. That is where the kicking coach helps the most. Teaching these guys how to focus and block out other things as well as technique. Coaching them to not shank extra points and botching crunch time FGs. Get it?

[BigDFan5]

The big friggin difference is how they perform in crunch time. That is where the kicking coach helps the most. Teaching these guys how to focus and block out other things as well as technique. Coaching them to not shank extra points and botching crunch time FGs. Get it?



the kickers have sucked for years. You wanna know why they werent shanking big time FGs in 2004?? Because we were getting blown out and didnt have any big time FGs LOL.


You can continue to cry over a coach that hasnt made much of a difference in about a 5 year period or so, personally I rather get a kicker that didnt need his hand held.

[Cowboy Junkie]

At least he is not bitter....

[CowboyManDan]

Translation...as long as Parcells is Head Coach I won't be working there.

I was gonna say the same thing.

There are just as many coaches and players that don't like Parcells as there are that do like him I guess.

[Cajuncowboy]

the kickers have sucked for years. You wanna know why they werent shanking big time FGs in 2004?? Because we were getting blown out and didnt have any big time FGs LOL.


You can continue to cry over a coach that hasnt made much of a difference in about a 5 year period or so, personally I rather get a kicker that didnt need his hand held.

Obviously you are in the minority on this. I have an idea. Lets get some defensive linemen and get rid of the defensive line coachs. After all, why should they have their hands held? And oh yeah, let's get rid of the QBs coach. They don't need to be pampered either. Same with the secondary coaches, why keep them? These players are all adults. Geez! Unreal!

[CrazyCowboy]

Why, is it such a big deal for BP to have a kicking coach? I don't understand why the Cowboys got rid of him.....must be a Paul Harvey story somewhere.

[BigDFan5]

Obviously you are in the minority on this. I have an idea. Lets get some defensive linemen and get rid of the defensive line coachs. After all, why should they have their hands held? And oh yeah, let's get rid of the QBs coach. They don't need to be pampered either. Same with the secondary coaches, why keep them? These players are all adults. Geez! Unreal!


If I am in the minority thats fine at least I am being sensible.


Your little rant about getting rid of the other positions coaches is lame for one BIG reason. Tell me of the 32 NFL teams how many have a kicking coach, and how many jobs has Hoffman the great been offered

[BigDFan5]

Why, is it such a big deal for BP to have a kicking coach? I don't understand why the Cowboys got rid of him.....must be a Paul Harvey story somewhere.


Crazy not one single team in the NFL has a kicking coach

[NovaCowboy]

Why, is it such a big deal for BP to have a kicking coach? I don't understand why the Cowboys got rid of him.....must be a Paul Harvey story somewhere.

Because back in 1914 when Parcells was 25 he used to walk 12 miles to the football field to kick field goals in 6 feet of snow. Kickers dont need no damn coach, they is what they is, havent you heard?

[Dave_in-NC]

Hoffman says he a kick advisor for NFL teams, most of them suck. I wouldnt be braggin.:)

[joseephuss]

go look it up our kickers were 74% this year and last year a whopping 76% under Hoffman the great. Big friggin difference

Cortez was a 70.6% kicker for Dallas this season. Cundiff was a 62.5% kicker this year.

Billy was the only kicker for Dallas last season when he hit 76.9% of his FG attempts. Seems like that number is much better than the other two.

Maybe people are right and there shouldn't be some great admiration for Hoffman, but I don't understand why there is such great hate for the man.

I also don't see a problem with having a kicking coach even if a good kicker is brought in. A position coaching isn't a bad thing. I also think Dallas should have a QB coach and leave the coordinator duties to Payton or any new offensive coordinator.

[Cajuncowboy]

If I am in the minority thats fine at least I am being sensible.


Your little rant about getting rid of the other positions coaches is lame for one BIG reason. Tell me of the 32 NFL teams how many have a kicking coach, and how many jobs has Hoffman the great been offered

First of all that's not true. They hire "Consultants". We call them coaches. No difference. As a matter of fact Paul McCord got a Super Bowl ring when he was a "Consultant" with the Ravens. You need to know what you are talking about first.

Secondly, if you are happy with the results of our kicking game and don't think we need all the help we can get then you have not been watching the Cowboys this year.

[BigDFan5]

Cortez was a 70.6% kicker for Dallas this season. Cundiff was a 62.5% kicker this year.

Billy was the only kicker for Dallas last season when he hit 76.9% of his FG attempts. Seems like that number is much better than the other two.

Maybe people are right and there shouldn't be some great admiration for Hoffman, but I don't understand why there is such great hate for the man.

I also don't see a problem with having a kicking coach even if a good kicker is brought in. A position coaching isn't a bad thing. I also think Dallas should have a QB coach and leave the coordinator duties to Payton or any new offensive coordinator.



I have no hate for hoffman whatsoever, the reactions from everyone of how firing hoffman was some huge mistake and how great he was, and Parcells is an idiot for letting him go is what bugs me. our overall FG % dropped 2 points not a huge difference. no team in the NFL has a kicking coach so I seriously doubt hoffman is some genius or he would have a job.


We do have a QB coach his name is David Lee

[BigDFan5]

First of all that's not true. They hire "Consultants". We call them coaches. No difference. As a matter of fact Paul McCord got a Super Bowl ring when he was a "Consultant" with the Ravens. You need to know what you are talking about first.

Secondly, if you are happy with the results of our kicking game and don't think we need all the help we can get then you have not been watching the Cowboys this year.


Its is 100% true. A consultant is not on your payroll and is not a coach big difference.


I am not happy with the kicking game at all, I am just smart enough to know Hoffman is not a miracle worker and we need a good kicker not to be the only team employing a kicking coach

[Jimz31]

Let's face it....what Jimmy Johnson said was correct....One fo BP's biggest mistakes was letting Hoffman go.

What does a kicking coach do?

1. He keeps the kickers fundamental sound. Is it any wonder that Cundiff was nailing them in his tryout to make the team again? He just got done working with Hoffman.

2. He keeps the kickers and punters heads in the game and focused on what they have to do. Is it any wonder why we had kickers sitting on the bench doing virtually nothing till it's time to come into the game and kick the ball? At crucial situations? If any of you have been to the games when he was a coach, you would see him with the kickers more often than not.

Yes, these kickers SHOULD have been concentrating on the ONE job that they have to do, but sitting on that bench has a tendency to make their mind wander....and wander it did.

You all can poo-poo what Hoffman does, but some of us just know better. :)

[joseephuss]

Its is 100% true. A consultant is not on your payroll and is not a coach big difference.


I am not happy with the kicking game at all, I am just smart enough to know Hoffman is not a miracle worker and we need a good kicker not to be the only team employing a kicking coach

What is wrong with both? A good kicker and kicking coach? Doesn't sound like a bad idea. Yes, I would prefer at least a good kicker, but Dallas hasn't attempted to get one. If they aren't going to even try and bring in a good kicker, then I prefer having a kicking coach. I don't care that Dallas was the only one to employ a kicking coach. As bad as some teams kickers have been, maybe more interest should shown in getting kicking coaches. These problems don't fix themselves. Something has to be tried.

[Cajuncowboy]

Its is 100% true. A consultant is not on your payroll and is not a coach big difference.


I am not happy with the kicking game at all, I am just smart enough to know Hoffman is not a miracle worker and we need a good kicker not to be the only team employing a kicking coach

Right, They do it for free. :rolleyes: You don't give someone who is "Just a consultant" a super bowl ring. But hey, we'll go with your beliefs. And keep watching guys shank the chipshots in the wanning seconds of a game. Oh joy!

[Cajuncowboy]

Let's face it....what Jimmy Johnson said was correct....One fo BP's biggest mistakes was letting Hoffman go.

What does a kicking coach do?

1. He keeps the kickers fundamental sound. Is it any wonder that Cundiff was nailing them in his tryout to make the team again? He just got done working with Hoffman.

2. He keeps the kickers and punters heads in the game and focused on what they have to do. Is it any wonder why we had kickers sitting on the bench doing virtually nothing till it's time to come into the game and kick the ball? At crucial situations? If any of you have been to the games when he was a coach, you would see him with the kickers more often than not.

Yes, these kickers SHOULD have been concentrating on the ONE job that they have to do, but sitting on that bench has a tendency to make their mind wander....and wander it did.

You all can poo-poo what Hoffman does, but some of us just know better. :)


Some folks don't get it. They have their, "Everyone else does it this way, so why shouldn't we?" mentality. But they forget that sometimes, breaking the mold actually leads to success. But some of those people will never find that out.

[AbeBeta]

go look it up our kickers were 74% this year and last year a whopping 76% under Hoffman the great. Big friggin difference

Now that's a statistic!

I ask this every time his name comes up. If he is so good why doesn't he have a full time job? Nobody would rather do the consulting gig instead of having a steady job in a stable location.

[dargonking999]

Last time i checked the FG kickers this season plain sucked. There was a few teams that had kickers making kicks for them at crunch time, others we're getting blocked or missing.

A Kicker coach is a waste of time and money, we dont neeed any body giving excuses to why these kickers we find on the streets suck and keep saying give them a chance.

Bottom line, i dont think Vinteri has a kicker coach, and he has hit alot of kicks in his day, at lot of them on posters, i doubt anybdoy in the league could name our kicker from 2004 without looking at roster. Get a real kicker, and you wont need a kicking coach.

[joseephuss]

Now that's a statistic!

I ask this every time his name comes up. If he is so good why doesn't he have a full time job? Nobody would rather do the consulting gig instead of having a steady job in a stable location.

Dallas Cowboys kicking percentage last 3 years:
2003 79.3% Cundiff only kicker
2004 76.9% Cundiff only kicker
2005 70.4%(Cundiff 62.5%)

http://sports-att.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=dal

Maybe it is just Cundiff getting worse every year and nothing else. Maybe it is coaching.

[NovaCowboy]

Get a real kicker, and you wont need a kicking coach.

You act like "real kickers" can be found at every street corner. Show me where we can get one of these real kickers you speak of and then I'll say we dont need Hoffman.

Obviously if most of the kickers in the league suck these days they arent very easy to find.

[joseephuss]

Parcells said something about kickers and field goal attempts under 40 yards during training camp. Something about they should hit a very high percentage especially off the turf and the partial dome of Texas Stadium.

Cundiff coming into this year hit 35 of 38 kicks from less than 40 yards. He only hit 4 of 7 this season. That doesn't count the miss against Carolina that was wiped out by the penalty. He has missed more without Hoffman than with Hoffman. :grin: Just so you know, I keep posting because this horse ain't quite dead yet. :laugh2:

[Jimz31]

Now that's a statistic!

I ask this every time his name comes up. If he is so good why doesn't he have a full time job? Nobody would rather do the consulting gig instead of having a steady job in a stable location.

What are you smoking? Give me some of it.

Consultants make more money than CEO's in "the real world" in a shorter amount of time. Believe me.

[mschmidt64]

The big friggin difference is how they perform in crunch time. That is where the kicking coach helps the most.


Or in other words...

"I have no point, so let me make something up to support my ridiculous stance!"

Our kickers were no more clutch when Hoffman was here than they were after he left.

They were no better or no worse.

He had a cozy little job at a specialist position that was not to be found anywhere else in football.... its REDUNDANT and NOT NEEDED.

We will sink money into a kicker this offseason and prove it.

[Cajuncowboy]

Or in other words...

"I have no point, so let me make something up to support my ridiculous stance!"

Our kickers were no more clutch when Hoffman was here than they were after he left.

They were no better or no worse.

He had a cozy little job at a specialist position that was not to be found anywhere else in football.... its REDUNDANT and NOT NEEDED.

We will sink money into a kicker this offseason and prove it.

Some people just show how little they actually know by statements like these. First of all something that supposedly doesn't exist somewhere else cannot be redundant. Secondly, if think I just made this up, maybe you should review some of the play from this position. And since we obviously didn't have a good kicker this year, you think a coach was not needed. Man, am I glad you don't handle the personell decisions for this team.

And hey, go back a root for #20 some more. Seems like you may know about baseball than you do football.

[Jimz31]

Or in other words...

"I have no point, so let me make something up to support my ridiculous stance!"

Our kickers were no more clutch when Hoffman was here than they were after he left.

They were no better or no worse.

He had a cozy little job at a specialist position that was not to be found anywhere else in football.... its REDUNDANT and NOT NEEDED.

We will sink money into a kicker this offseason and prove it.

Let's just "sink" money into every position on the field and we'd win the Superbowl. In the process, we can jettison EVERY coach that we have since it is the money that makes the difference.

Money makes a difference to a point, I'll agree, but just make sure it is a kicker that has fundamentals that won't quit.....and a head that never freezes.

[Cajuncowboy]

Let's just "sink" money into every position on the field and we'd win the Superbowl. In the process, we can jettison EVERY coach that we have since it is the money that makes the difference.

Money makes a difference to a point, I'll agree, but just make sure it is a kicker that has fundamentals that won't quit.....and a head that never freezes.

Yeah, money makes the difference. How's that workin' out for TO and the Birds? I agree with ya Jim, Some folks are short sighted with this.

[mschmidt64]

Secondly, if think I just made this up

I know that you just made it up.

The Dallas Cowboys with Steve Hoffman were kings of bringing in the street FAs and milking them for all they were worth.

Hoffman didn't do anything to get them to perform any better... which is why they all ended up out of work sooner rather than later. Because in the end, they were all marginal kickers and no one can change that, not even a glorified special teams coach like Hoffman.

As long as Hoffman was here, we should be used to gutter kickers like Seder and Cundiff.

Hopefully, his departure will signal an end to the acceptance of mediocrity in this department, which we had done for years.

The guy was nothing special and it is why he is still UNemployed.

Now quick.... tell me something else you made up, like our kickoffs were longer under Hoffman or something.

[Bob Sacamano]

Obviously you are in the minority on this. I have an idea. Lets get some defensive linemen and get rid of the defensive line coachs. After all, why should they have their hands held? And oh yeah, let's get rid of the QBs coach. They don't need to be pampered either. Same with the secondary coaches, why keep them? These players are all adults. Geez! Unreal!

what BigD is saying, get some bonefide talent at kicker, just like we're doing everywhere else on the team, or trying to

look around the league, most of the top kickers dont' have a coined, "exceptional", kicking coach

coincidence?

[mschmidt64]

Let's just "sink" money into every position on the field and we'd win the Superbowl. In the process, we can jettison EVERY coach that we have since it is the money that makes the difference.

I'm only for the jettison of the coaches who didn't earn their paycheck.

Like Hoffman.

Who kept us wallowed in mediocrity at the kicker position with consistently unconsistent kickers.

[Bob Sacamano]

I'm only for the jettison of the coaches who didn't earn their paycheck.

Like Hoffman.

Who kept us wallowed in mediocrity at the kicker position with consistently unconsistent kickers.

these guys are crazy, they want to keep Hoffman and his non-descript kickers, instead of going out and getting a real one, which Parcells will probably do

[Cajuncowboy]

I know that you just made it up.

The Dallas Cowboys with Steve Hoffman were kings of bringing in the street FAs and milking them for all they were worth.

Hoffman didn't do anything to get them to perform any better... which is why they all ended up out of work sooner rather than later. Because in the end, they were all marginal kickers and no one can change that, not even a glorified special teams coach like Hoffman.

As long as Hoffman was here, we should be used to gutter kickers like Seder and Cundiff.

Hopefully, his departure will signal an end to the acceptance of mediocrity in this department, which we had done for years.

The guy was nothing special and it is why he is still UNemployed.

Now quick.... tell me something else you made up, like our kickoffs were longer under Hoffman or something.


HAHA. You know it was a typo. I meant If YOU think I made it up. But don't let something like that stop you from making a fool of yourself.

And if as you said we took marginal kickers and "Milked" them for all they were worth, who gets credit for that? And if they were out of work soon after, don't you think that nmaybe the coach had something to do with that? YOu killed your own argument.

[mschmidt64]

And if as you said we took marginal kickers and "Milked" them for all they were worth, who gets credit for that? And if they were out of work soon after, don't you think that nmaybe the coach had something to do with that? YOu killed your own argument.


No.

I'm saying I don't want to have to put up with that kind of mediocrity anymore.

We took a bunch of street free agents and rode whoever had a hot leg until it went cold.

And those hot legs were never better than average.

It took absolutely ZERO extra coaching.

The ability that Hoffman brought to the table was his ability to find street fa's and suggest them to the coaching staff.

:yawn:

What a messiah!

He provided us with average to below average kicking for a decade! Lets pay him a few hundred grand a year for being a scout who only scouts kickers, and never even finds good ones, only cheap ones!

I want a real kicker.

If you hadn't already decided that you personally like Hoffman (probably because you are an old-timey homer for the good ol days) and will stick up for him no matter how you have to stretch your argument...

.... you'd realize that you want a real kicker too.

[NovaCowboy]

these guys are crazy, they want to keep Hoffman and his non-descript kickers, instead of going out and getting a real one, which Parcells will probably do


You mean like Parcells has done in his 3 years here?

I get so sick of these "Parcells will save the day" sentiments.

[Bob Sacamano]

You mean like Parcells has done in his 3 years here?

I get so sick of these "Parcells will save the day" sentiments.

I get sick of your b1tching, so what?

Parcells values special teams and the kicking game like no other coach, you saw his expressions after missed fgs, but you're going to seriously sit here and tell me that Parcells is going to treat the kicking situation the same way he has for awhile now, relying on Steve Hoffman and his rag-tag group of kickers?

[NovaCowboy]

I get sick of your b1tching, so what?

Parcells values special teams and the kicking game like no other coach, you saw his expressions after missed fgs, but you're going to seriously sit here and tell me that Parcells is going to treat the kicking situation the same way he has for awhile now, relying on Steve Hoffman and his rag-tag group of kickers?

No Im not going to seriously sit here at tell you Parcells would do that because it makes too much sense and therefore Bill will have nothing to do with it.

You need to take the Parcells action figure out of your rectum and realize he doesnt have the answers.

[Bob Sacamano]

You need to take the Parcells action figure out of your rectum and realize he doesnt have the answers.

resorting to personal attacks...

yep, you lost this debate

[NovaCowboy]

resorting to personal attacks...

yep, you lost this debate

You lost it when you circumvented the language filter in your personal attack on me!

Shame on you Bill

[Cajuncowboy]

Parcells values special teams and the kicking game like no other coach,

Ummm, this is the coach who, onced asked a trainer if the Kicker would be available for a game and the trainer said he couldn't play. Parcells then said, He doesn't have to play, Just kick.

Yeah, he values the kicking game. :lmao:

[mschmidt64]

No Im not going to seriously sit here at tell you Parcells would do that because it makes too much sense and therefore Bill will have nothing to do with it.

You need to take the Parcells action figure out of your rectum and realize he doesnt have the answers.


Who does have the answers?

Or should I say, who has better answers than Parcells?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to come up with a credible answer here, but I'll give you a shot.

[Bob Sacamano]

Ummm, this is the coach who, onced asked a trainer if the Kicker would be available for a game and the trainer said he couldn't play. Parcells then said, He doesn't have to play, Just kick.

Yeah, he values the kicking game. :lmao:
he sure does, that's why he got rid of Hoffman, so that we can get a real kicker in here

[Cajuncowboy]

No.

I'm saying I don't want to have to put up with that kind of mediocrity anymore.

We took a bunch of street free agents and rode whoever had a hot leg until it went cold.

And those hot legs were never better than average.

It took absolutely ZERO extra coaching.

The ability that Hoffman brought to the table was his ability to find street fa's and suggest them to the coaching staff.

:yawn:

What a messiah!

He provided us with average to below average kicking for a decade! Lets pay him a few hundred grand a year for being a scout who only scouts kickers, and never even finds good ones, only cheap ones!

I want a real kicker.

If you hadn't already decided that you personally like Hoffman (probably because you are an old-timey homer for the good ol days) and will stick up for him no matter how you have to stretch your argument...

.... you'd realize that you want a real kicker too.


LOL. The guys have hot legs and then they leave and they get cold. :laugh2:

Man that's funny.

They have success here under Hoffmans coaching, THEN they leave or he leaves, then they stink. But that has NOTHING to do with the coaching.

[NovaCowboy]

Who does have the answers?

Or should I say, who has better answers than Parcells?

I wouldn't expect you to be able to come up with a credible answer here, but I'll give you a shot.

When it comes to the kicking game, Steve Hoffman.

[mschmidt64]

Ummm, this is the coach who, onced asked a trainer if the Kicker would be available for a game and the trainer said he couldn't play. Parcells then said, He doesn't have to play, Just kick.

Yeah, he values the kicking game. :lmao:


More stretching the facts to fit your agenda.

Top notch.

Bill Parcells plays mind games with people and is very hard on them because it forces them to produce or get the frick out.

Somehow you translate that into not valuing the kicking game.

I would hope that anybody without an agenda on this board can see you for what you are....

.... but I don't know if I can count on that here.

[Cajuncowboy]

he sure does, that's why he got rid of Hoffman, so that we can get a real kicker in here

Really? What's he waiting on? For the season to start? Oh wait, it's over. Timing is everything.

[Cajuncowboy]

More stretching the facts to fit your agenda.

Top notch.

Bill Parcells plays mind games with people and is very hard on them because it forces them to produce or get the frick out.

Somehow you translate that into not valuing the kicking game.

I would hope that anybody without an agenda on this board can see you for what you are....

.... but I don't know if I can count on that here.

Not stretching anything. Parcells said that. Sorry you can't handle facts. YOu lost the argument about 5 posts ago by your own words.

And BTW, Just what "AM I" little boy?

[Bob Sacamano]

Really? What's he waiting on? For the season to start? Oh wait, it's over. Timing is everything.

how about this offseason where Mike Vanderjagt, Adam Viniteiri, and Ryan Longwell will all probably be available?

who needs Hoffman?

[mschmidt64]

LOL. The guys have hot legs and then they leave and they get cold. :laugh2:

Man that's funny.

They have success here under Hoffmans coaching, THEN they leave or he leaves, then they stink. But that has NOTHING to do with the coaching.

They were all the same.

Seder, Cundiff, Cunningham, etc.

Marginal kickers who sucked in a short amount of time even despite the amazing tutelage of Hoffman.

Eddie Murray is the route we should be going.

Continue to pine away for the kicking scout and special teams mediocrity, though.

[Bob Sacamano]

LOL. The guys have hot legs and then they leave and they get cold. :laugh2:

Man that's funny.

They have success here under Hoffmans coaching, THEN they leave or he leaves, then they stink. But that has NOTHING to do with the coaching.

why would we allow them to leave? I mean, they're so successful right :lmao:

[mschmidt64]

When it comes to the kicking game, Steve Hoffman.


Ignoring the fact that Cundiff and Seder (Hoffman provided kickers) are not answers, I was talking about the coaching situation as a whole.

[Cajuncowboy]

Eddie Murray is the route we should be going.


Eddie Murray???? :lmao: :laugh2: Well, talk about pinning for the old days. This guy is about 50 now. But hey, he doesn't need a coach, right? LMAO! This debate is over now. YOu lost.

[mschmidt64]

how about this offseason where Mike Vanderjagt, Adam Viniteiri, and Ryan Longwell will all probably be available?

who needs Hoffman?


You are dealing with people who will do and say anything to win an argument, summer, because winning is more important than being right to them.

I suggest you let it go.


These are the kind of people who will shift stances until it makes your head spin. You can't win, quite honestly.

[Cajuncowboy]

You are dealing with people who will do and say anything to win an argument, summer, because winning is more important than being right to them.

I suggest you let it go.


These are the kind of people who will shift stances until it makes your head spin. You can't win, quite honestly.

When you think Eddie Murray is the answer, you are right. You won't win. LOL!

Hey Smitty, isn't Blanda available???

[Bob Sacamano]

You are dealing with people who will do and say anything to win an argument, summer, because winning is more important than being right to them.

I suggest you let it go.


These are the kind of people who will shift stances until it makes your head spin. You can't win, quite honestly.

you can't win an argument when you're wrong, so...

WE WIN!

[TonyS]

So, this is what the offseason's going to be like. Wonderful. :D

[Cajuncowboy]

So, this is what the offseason's going to be like. Wonderful. :D

Looks like it. What a way to start it off huh? :cool:

[UppityCracker2]

Cundiff was a product of Hoffman. No thanks.

[Jimz31]

Eddie Murray, Chris Boniol, Ritchie Cunningham....yeah, they sucked. Give me a break. And just think, these were guys that Hoffman found and turned into something.

[Cajuncowboy]

Eddie Murray, Chris Boniol, Ritchie Cunningham....yeah, they sucked. Give me a break. And just think, these were guys that Hoffman found and turned into something.

Yeah Boniol sucked. He only had the 3rd highest FG percentage in NFL history.

100.0 Tony Zendejas (17-17) Los Angeles Rams

100.0 Gary Anderson (35-35) Minnesota

96.4 Chris Boniol (28-27) Dallas

Yet another fact that will be ignored.

[mschmidt64]

Eddie Murray, Chris Boniol, Ritchie Cunningham....yeah, they sucked. Give me a break. And just think, these were guys that Hoffman found and turned into something.

Murray was a respected and established FA and Hoffman had nothing to do with his "discovery" nor did he do anything in particular to coach him that any special teams coach couldn't do.

Cunningham had one great year and then started well the second year before getting cold and eventually hitting the road his third year.

Boniol is the only kicker in 10 years to turn into something decent.

With that kind of track record, we can't afford not to bring this guy back!

[speedkilz88]

So why didn't Parcells get a real kicker last season after he fired Hoffman? He could have signed Matt Bryant, who he liked a lot and once compared to Murray, yet he let him sign with Tampa where he had an excellent year. While Parcells brought in Cortez to compete with Cundiff, that was genius!

[Bob Sacamano]

So why didn't Parcells get a real kicker last season after he fired Hoffman? He could have signed Matt Bryan, who he liked a lot and once compared to Murray, yet he let him sign with Tampa where he had an excellent year. While Parcells brought in Cortez to compete with Cundiff, that was genius!

Bryant got hurt, and he couldn't afford to keep 2 kickers on the roster

but other than Bryant, who else of note was out there since Parcells has been here? and remember Bryant against us with the Giants? it's not like he was an established kicker by any stretch of the imagination before he went to Tampa

[davidyee]

Crazy not one single team in the NFL has a kicking coach

All teams have kicking coach, many have a tendency to employ them as special teams coaches also because the breadth of their duties in one area of special teams does not make an entire job.

They work on teaching the players technique and coverages on possibly the most transient and dynamic plays of the entire game when basically all hell goes loose on punt and kickoff coverages.

Dallas has been very forward thinking in understanding that kicking from the professional and gurus standpoint is like golf - 90% mental and 10% technique.

That why some very reasonable posters on this board have been so frustrated with the kicking game. How does a person with such a high percentage for 40 yarders and under pooch three kicks?

Hoffman's principle role is to make sure that the kickers are in the right frame of mind to convert the kicks they are expected to make - convert the makeable points on the field.

The real question you should be asking yourself is not the overall kicking percentage, but the percentage of kicks under 40 yards that have been converted.

As I posted in an earlier thread two months ago the best of the league with the exception of Rackers, who skews the stats, have a lifetime percentage in the high eighties. Cundiff was perfect until his run of bad luck.

It was reported after Cundiff's release that Parcells informed the press that it wasn't only Cundiff's bad kicks during the Carolina game, but he had also had a bad week in practice.

That's when you need a coach like Hoffman. He can assist in resolving issues before they manifest themselves on the field. Golf pros have gurus, there's no reason why kickers shouldn't have them also.

Last but not least: in your mind what was those three games that we lost by a FG or less worth? Possibly Hoffman's salary?

[davidyee]

Cundiff was a product of Hoffman. No thanks.

Cundiff in 2006 was a product of himself. When he began his bad luck streak he was on the sidelines without Hoffman so let's not roast a guy who wasn't there to mitigate the problems.

[speedkilz88]

Bryant got hurt, and he couldn't afford to keep 2 kickers on the roster

but other than Bryant, who else of note was out there since Parcells has been here? and remember Bryant against us with the Giants? it's not like he was an established kicker by any stretch of the imagination before he went to TampaBryant was already healthy last offseason and he signed with Tampa. When we had Bryant on the team, Parcells compared him to Murray. So my question is, why didn't he sign him, a real kicker, instead of signing the great Cortez to compete with Cundiff?

[mschmidt64]

Hoffman's principle role is to make sure that the kickers are in the right frame of mind to convert the kicks they are expected to make - convert the makeable points on the field.


Hoffman didn't have the special ability to do anything that Dehaven can't.

This was clear as mediocre kicker after mediocre kicker eventually got cold and hit the bricks.

The solution isn't a kicking coach.

The solution is a kicker.

[Bob Sacamano]

Bryant was already healthy last offseason and he signed with Tampa. When we had Bryant on the team, Parcells compared him to Murray. So my question is, why didn't he sign him, a real kicker, instead of signing the great Cortez to compete with Cundiff?

that's because Bryant was signed by Tampa before Parcells could

[davidyee]

I get sick of your b1tching, so what?

Parcells values special teams and the kicking game like no other coach, you saw his expressions after missed fgs, but you're going to seriously sit here and tell me that Parcells is going to treat the kicking situation the same way he has for awhile now, relying on Steve Hoffman and his rag-tag group of kickers?

...is going to put on a big show in front of the cameras on how much he feels the kicking game is important, but when the chips fall and your kicker is in a funk he can't pull himself out of he's going to march down the sidelines and yell "f - you" at the kicker/punter or glare at you as if you had just murdered his grandchild.

For those posters who insist that Dallas is going to be the haven for kickers to come here to save the day how assinine can you guys be to think that Vanderjagt, Vinatieri and LOngwell are even going to consider coming here to be subjected to that kind of treatment.

Those three above have led exemplary careers in their stats for FG kicking they don't need that crap.

FYI, Vinatieri missed a 32 yarder this year. It was a plain old shank with no extreme weather variables - really purely his fault. Belechick went to him on the sidelines and put his hand around his head and patted his helmet and then walked away laughing.

I think that's called team building - actually I believe that is the true road to the SuperBowl.

[Bob Sacamano]

The solution isn't a kicking coach.

The solution is a kicker.

can't believe that they would rather have Hoffman and a non-descript kicker instead of a VIniteiri

[Bob Sacamano]

...is going to put on a big show in front of the cameras on how much he feels the kicking game is important, but when the chips fall and your kicker is in a funk he can't pull himself out of he's going to march down the sidelines and yell "f - you" at the kicker/punter or glare at you as if you had just murdered his grandchild.

For those posters who insist that Dallas is going to be the haven for kickers to come here to save the day how assinine can you guys be to think that Vanderjagt, Vinatieri and LOngwell are even going to consider coming here to be subjected to that kind of treatment.

Those three above have led exemplary careers in their stats for FG kicking they don't need that crap.

FYI, Vinatieri missed a 32 yarder this year. It was a plain old shank with no extreme weather variables - really purely his fault. Belechick went to him on the sidelines and put his hand around his head and patted his helmet and then walked away laughing.

I think that's called team building - actually I believe that is the true road to the SuperBowl.

money talks

you get paid to perform

[davidyee]

Hoffman didn't have the special ability to do anything that Dehaven can't.

This was clear as mediocre kicker after mediocre kicker eventually got cold and hit the bricks.

The solution isn't a kicking coach.

The solution is a kicker.

...players of a lesser pedigree then you better be prepared to work with them. It's not DeHaven who is the problem, it's Parcells who terror tactics won't win him any goodwill points for kickers in the league.

These players aren't wallflowers, but they do understand the gravity of their own failures without the coach having to remind them on the sidelines.

And if the solution isn't a kicking coach then what hell are you paying DeHaven's salary for when Parcells stated in the press conference on Cundiff's release that the guy was kicking poorly all week.

You just don't go bad all of a sudden - all kicking coaches know that at the very least.

[speedkilz88]

that's because Bryant was signed by Tampa before Parcells couldLame answer, Parcells didn't try to sign him, he apparently was content with Cundiff.
Also, its been reported weeks ago that Vinateiri reupped with NE. Any team with an elite kicker is bound to retain them.

[davidyee]

money talks

you get paid to perform

..when we dont get a premium kicker signed again this year and we go to the rookie free agent or another team's cast off.

The fans of Dallas will really see what talks then as we lose another game by three points or less.

[Bob Sacamano]

Lame answer, Parcells didn't try to sign him, he apparently was content with Cundiff.
Also, its been reported weeks ago that Vinateiri reupped with NE. Any team with an elite kicker is bound to retain them.

wait, didn't Parcells compare him to Murray? so you're going to tell me he didn't try to sign him? oops, my BS meter is going off

[Bob Sacamano]

..when we dont get a premium kicker signed again this year and we go to the rookie free agent or another team's cast off.

The fans of Dallas will really see what talks then as we lose another game by three points or less.

that made no sense, you gave me this cup of jo about Vinatieri's feelings, and I responded that if we paid him well, he's not going to care, cuz he's getting paid, paid to make kicks, not worry about what his coach is saying

[speedkilz88]

wait, didn't Parcells compare him to Murray? so you're going to tell me he didn't try to sign him? oops, my BS meter is going offYour the one who claimed Tampa swooped in and signed him before he did. Guess he was napping. You definitely have the BS all over you dude.

[Bob Sacamano]

Your the one who claimed Tampa swooped in and signed him before he did. Guess he was napping. You definitely have the BS all over you dude.

Tampa did sign him before us, hence, he's a Buccaneer

logic isn't too kind to you is it?

[speedkilz88]

Tampa did sign him before us, hence, he's a Buccaneer

logic isn't too kind to you is it?You made a claim that that they he tried to sign Bryant yet you have nothing to back it up. There is no reason to think he tried to sign him and that he chose Tampa over a return to Dallas. Nothing, nada, zippo! You were talking out of your arse and you know it smelling all that BS that is covering you and that meter an all.

[Bob Sacamano]

Bryant played with the Dolphins and Colts in 2004, and signed with the Bucs March 2nd of 2005, the 2nd day of free agency

so yeah, I kinda think the BUcs signed him before we did

[davidyee]

that made no sense, you gave me this cup of jo about Vinatieri's feelings, and I responded that if we paid him well, he's not going to care, cuz he's getting paid, paid to make kicks, not worry about what his coach is saying

...going to take a lesser contract to stay with a coach who supports him. Say Belechick! He doesn't need an extra 200,000 on an unguaranteed contract with a coach who has a tendency to make the kicking position a turnstile affair.

No kicker is coming here no matter what the contract to have their legs pulle dout from under them.

Or did you forget that all NFL contracts are unguaranteed? As for SB, there is no precedence for giving a kicker anymore than 2 mill yet and you have to have a guy for at least five years based on the latest contracts.

Longwell, Vinatieri and Vanderjagt couldn't finish another 5 year contract so they will be wanting big money up front to come to Dallas. Possibly 2.5 to 3 million on the signing bonus for a three year contract.

I expect these guys to go to any warm weather domed stadium other than Dallas if they are smart.

[Bob Sacamano]

...going to take a lesser contract to stay with a coach who supports him. Say Belechick! He doesn't need an extra 200,000 on an unguaranteed contract with a coach who has a tendency to make the kicking position a turnstile affair.

No kicker is coming here no matter what the contract to have their legs pulle dout from under them.

Or did you forget that all NFL contracts are unguaranteed? As for SB, there is no precedence for giving a kicker anymore than 2 mill yet and you have to have a guy for at least five years based on the latest contracts.

Longwell, Vinatieri and Vanderjagt couldn't finish another 5 year contract so they will be wanting big money up front to come to Dallas. Possibly 2.5 to 3 million on the signing bonus for a three year contract.

I expect these guys to go to any warm weather domed stadium other than Dallas if they are smart.

I don't deal in conjecture

[BigDFan5]

...going to take a lesser contract to stay with a coach who supports him. Say Belechick! He doesn't need an extra 200,000 on an unguaranteed contract with a coach who has a tendency to make the kicking position a turnstile affair.

No kicker is coming here no matter what the contract to have their legs pulle dout from under them.

Or did you forget that all NFL contracts are unguaranteed? As for SB, there is no precedence for giving a kicker anymore than 2 mill yet and you have to have a guy for at least five years based on the latest contracts.

Longwell, Vinatieri and Vanderjagt couldn't finish another 5 year contract so they will be wanting big money up front to come to Dallas. Possibly 2.5 to 3 million on the signing bonus for a three year contract.

I expect these guys to go to any warm weather domed stadium other than Dallas if they are smart.



So yall are mad parcells has not signed a big time kicker, yet you are saying no big time kicker would come here. So if none are willing to come here how is it parcells fault we are stuck with Cundiff types.

[Bob Sacamano]

So yall are mad parcells has not signed a big time kicker, yet you are saying no big time kicker would come here. So if none are willing to come here how is it parcells fault we are stuck with Cundiff types.

because conjecture works both ways

see, that's why I don't deal in it

[mschmidt64]

...players of a lesser pedigree then you better be prepared to work with them. It's not DeHaven who is the problem, it's Parcells who terror tactics won't win him any goodwill points for kickers in the league.

This isn't worth dignifying with a response.

And if the solution isn't a kicking coach then what hell are you paying DeHaven's salary for when Parcells stated in the press conference on Cundiff's release that the guy was kicking poorly all week.

You just don't go bad all of a sudden - all kicking coaches know that at the very least.

Because Dehaven does other things besides the needless job of babysitting the kicker.

A function which no other team devotes an entire coaching position to.

These mediocre kickers DO go bad all of a sudden. If you are going to claim that it is all mental -- then Hoffman wasn't doing his job anyway, because they all would eventually go cold under his supervision!

But that is not the case, so it is irrelevant.

A good kicker will not dry up. You don't need a "handler" for the kickers, and it was something that Hoffman had no special ability to perform even if you did need one... as evidenced by the way his selections always eventually went sour. Clearly, even if he was doing what you say he did, he eventually would fail at it with every project.

The solution is not adding a worthless coach.

The solution is adding a kicker isn't afraid of his own shadow, if what you say about mind games is to be believed.

[davidyee]

So yall are mad parcells has not signed a big time kicker, yet you are saying no big time kicker would come here. So if none are willing to come here how is it parcells fault we are stuck with Cundiff types.

...don't tell your punter to f-off on national television when he pooches a punt. The guys a schizophrenic! He goes from talking to the national media about how McBriar has a chance to take trip to Hawaii to swearing at him on national television.

, do you think other players don't get to watch that crap! Par tof the reason why any employee wold change jobs is not only for the money and the potential of advancement, in this case a SuperBowl, but also can they work with the present brain trust.

I have a feeling that most kickers in this league who are established and proven will take any job at a lesser price to stay away from Parcells and his moods.

When you have proven yourself in this league you are too old to take that crap. Basically this leaves us with the sorry saps who need a job and are willing to overlook any conditions to be employed. But a the great Mickeroo always says you gotta wonder why they are available.

My guess is the the fabulous Paul Edinger may be coming to Dallas after his sorry year with the Vikings. Ask the Bears what a year with Edinger is like. that's the quality we will be seeing. Guys who need a job, not real kickers!

[BigDFan5]

...don't tell your punter to f-off on national television when he pooches a punt. The guys a schizophrenic! He goes from talking to the national media about how McBriar has a chance to take trip to Hawaii to swearing at him on national television.

, do you think other players don't get to watch that crap! Par tof the reason why any employee wold change jobs is not only for the money and the potential of advancement, in this case a SuperBowl, but also can they work with the present brain trust.

I have a feeling that most kickers in this league who are established and proven will take any job at a lesser price to stay away from Parcells and his moods.

When you have proven yourself in this league you are too old to take that crap. Basically this leaves us with the sorry saps who need a job and are willing to overlook any conditions to be employed. But a the great Mickeroo always says you gotta wonder why they are available.

My guess is the the fabulous Paul Edinger may be coming to Dallas after his sorry year with the Vikings. Ask the Bears what a year with Edinger is like. that's the quality we will be seeing. Guys who need a job, not real kickers!



Funny I saw that game and seen him say no such thing, maybe I missed it.



SO in your opinion there is no way Parcells can win, good kickers wont come here because their feelings may get hurt if they DO BADLY! So we will only get a crappy kicker and then you can blame parcells again! I see how it works now

[davidyee]

...you have never kicker before on a football team.


This isn't worth dignifying with a response.

The lack of dignity was when Parcells chased down McBriar on the sidlelines and told him to f-off. How about you go and tell your children the rationale for a grown man behaving in tha manner if you want to bringthe topic of dignity to this board in response to my post. Let me know how that works for any youngsters you have in your family. There's the DIGNITY issue for you.



Because Dehaven does other things besides the needless job of babysitting the kicker.

A function which no other team devotes an entire coaching position to.

These mediocre kickers DO go bad all of a sudden. If you are going to claim that it is all mental -- then Hoffman wasn't doing his job anyway, because they all would eventually go cold under his supervision!

But that is not the case, so it is irrelevant.

Famous last words spoken by someone who possibly has no idea what the uprights look like from 42 yards out. You bag on a specialized position like kicking which is inherantly associated with putting points on the board, but are unable to use the same rationale to justify some like, hell let's say, TE Coach which Sparano was.

Campbells hands were horrible this year and Witten whiffed on so many blocks it's not even funny how many times he was involved in protection breakdowns that led to runners being tackled behind the line or Bledsoe being sacked.

Basically Witten and Campbell performed horribly, ie went bad. They get paid so much more than Cundiff, why aren't they roasted or their coach just deleted?!!!

If you have played sports you will know that players do go "bad" and have lapses of confidence when "they just don't get it". Best case is Larry Allen and his lard *** year of 2004 when Parcells made so many jokes about his obesity and poor fitness that they were looking to dump the guy. Now all of a sudden he grows a brain and tries to work on his lower body and puts in one of his better years over the past three.

A good kicker will not dry up. You don't need a "handler" for the kickers, and it was something that Hoffman had no special ability to perform even if you did need one... as evidenced by the way his selections always eventually went sour. Clearly, even if he was doing what you say he did, he eventually would fail at it with every project.

Ha! B.S!!! Let's take the most remarkable turn arounds in kicking history in the NFL - Neil Rackers.

In his first journey through with the Bengals he was 10 - 21 from 40-49 yards out - Less than 50%!!!! From 30-39 yards he is 16 of 23! His first year with Arizona he misses 3 FGs inside the 40!

Then the miraculous occurs. In his second year of his Arizona stay he stabilizes himself somehow and becomes a 85% kicker inside of 50 yards. MVP type numbers for a kicker, then this year he goes to 97% - basically one kick short of perfect inside the 50.

How?? Kevin O'Dea. Who? Well this guy just happen to be a little known kicking coach specialist when he was picked up by Dennis Green. Actually he was the head of NFL Europe Kicking Camp prior and during his first year with the Cardinals. A specialist, a guru dare we say??? A hand holder/babysitter.

He took Rackers and stabilized him to the tune of a 2 million dollar SB this year. O'Dea unfortunately cannot coach coverage teams and Green has elected to dump him this year. Let's watch with anticipation if Neil Rackers "kicking superstar" goes BAD all of a sudden.

The solution is not adding a worthless coach.

The solution is adding a kicker isn't afraid of his own shadow, if what you say about mind games is to be believed.

No the solution is not a worthless coach, it's a kicking coach of the calibre of Hoffman and O'Dea!

If mind games aren't part of sports why do players of superstar calibre choke? Why does Billy Buckner let the ball dribble between his legs? Why does Mike Vernon miss an easy wrist shot for the final goal of the Stanley Cup? why does Adam Vinatieri miss a 32 yard field goal?

[Bob Sacamano]

...you have never kicker before on a football team.


what does that have to do with anything? that's like saying you've never been a coach on a football team, so you have no right questioning Parcells

and what does being a kicker on a pop-warner team have to do with what we're talking about?

[Bob Sacamano]

Ha! B.S!!! Let's take the most remarkable turn arounds in kicking history in the NFL - Neil Rackers.

In his first journey through with the Bengals he was 10 - 21 from 40-49 yards out - Less than 50%!!!! From 30-39 yards he is 16 of 23! His first year with Arizona he misses 3 FGs inside the 40!

Then the miraculous occurs. In his second year of his Arizona stay he stabilizes himself somehow and becomes a 85% kicker inside of 50 yards. MVP type numbers for a kicker, then this year he goes to 97% - basically one kick short of perfect inside the 50.

How?? Kevin O'Dea. Who? Well this guy just happen to be a little known kicking coach specialist when he was picked up by Dennis Green. Actually he was the head of NFL Europe Kicking Camp prior and during his first year with the Cardinals. A specialist, a guru dare we say??? A hand holder/babysitter.

He took Rackers and stabilized him to the tune of a 2 million dollar SB this year. O'Dea unfortunately cannot coach coverage teams and Green has elected to dump him this year. Let's watch with anticipation if Neil Rackers "kicking superstar" goes BAD all of a sudden.


could this also be the case of natural, player progression? after all, Rackers was a draft pick, not some scrub picked off the way-side aka Hoffman's pedigree

[davidyee]

Funny I saw that game and seen him say no such thing, maybe I missed it.



SO in your opinion there is no way Parcells can win, good kickers wont come here because their feelings may get hurt if they DO BADLY! So we will only get a crappy kicker and then you can blame parcells again! I see how it works now

...can most definitely win in this league. He needs to change his attitude to mistakes made on the field during the course of a season.

For a kicker he only gets three maybe five plays to make an impact in a game. That is his curse and a coach needs to understand that and temper his response accordingly.

Unlike other players he gets limited kicks at the can so his mistakes are magnified already. He doesn't need a coach to over react.

[davidyee]

could this also be the case of natural, player progression? after all, Rackers was a draft pick, not some scrub picked off the way-side

...at google pictures of him from Bengals to Cardinals. His kicking motion has been altered along with his set up. It's much more mechanical. Basically O'Dea has worked with the guy to give him a fluid, repetitive motion that takes out the "yips" in his swing.

I haven't seen him kick in person, but I would be willing to bet that he has never had more consistent contact on the ball in his professional career as this past season.

O'Dea's departure this year will be very interesting to watch because it may be a justification the profession of kicking coaches.

[Bob Sacamano]

...at google pictures of him from Bengals to Cardinals. His kicking motion has been altered along with his set up. It's much more mechanical. Basically O'Dea has worked with the guy to give him a fluid, repetitive motion that takes out the "yips" in his swing.

I haven't seen him kick in person, but I would be willing to bet that he has never had more consistent contact on the ball in his professional career as this past season.

O'Dea's departure this year will be very interesting to watch because it may be a justification the profession of kicking coaches.

but think about it, if O'Dea leaves, and Rackers still has the same success, isn't it an indication of how Hoffman failed as a kicking coach, cuz don't you think Hoffman was doing the same thing for Cundiff? but he hasn't progressed, he actually got worse this year...

[davidyee]

what does that have to do with anything? that's like saying you've never been a coach on a football team, so you have no right questioning Parcells

and what does being a kicker on a pop-warner team have to do with what we're talking about?

... university ball here in Canada. Frozen turf, people in stands, not professional pressure, but personal pride and it's puts in perspective what it feels like to stand seven yards back alone with people yelling at you to make it and miss.

Kicking is a mental game, I can't stress that enough. Having been one and now 40 years older with some wisdom it is easy to see that the majority of my problems as a kicker were in my head. As a 18 year old freshman was I prepared for that type of situation - probably not. I can't even imagine what the NFL is like.

[Bob Sacamano]

... university ball here in Canada. Frozen turf, people in stands, not professional pressure, but personal pride and it's puts in perspective what it feels like to stand seven yards back alone with people yelling at you to make it and miss.

Kicking is a mental game, I can't stress that enough. Having been one and now 40 years older with some wisdom it is easy to see that the majority of my problems as a kicker were in my head. As a 18 year old freshman was I prepared for that type of situation - probably not. I can't even imagine what the NFL is like.

if it's mental, how is Vinatieri able to go out and kick clutch fgs, but be hurt by what his coach says? if he's able to drone out the pressure of the situation, and the crowd noise, and nail a kick, he should certainly be able to channel out his coach screaming and yelling at him in practice and the sidelines...

[Jimz31]

if it's mental, how is Vinatieri able to go out and kick clutch fgs, but be hurt by what his coach says? if he's able to drone out the pressure of the situation, and the crowd noise, and nail a kick, he should certainly be able to channel out his coach screaming and yelling at him in practice and the sidelines...

He may be doing that.

[wileedog]

...can most definitely win in this league. He needs to change his attitude to mistakes made on the field during the course of a season.

For a kicker he only gets three maybe five plays to make an impact in a game. That is his curse and a coach needs to understand that and temper his response accordingly.

Unlike other players he gets limited kicks at the can so his mistakes are magnified already. He doesn't need a coach to over react.

The problem with all your arguments is that you only see what the television shows you.

For all you know after the game, the team walks into the locker room, Parcells mosey's on over to McBriar and throws his arm around him and gives him a big "we'll get 'em next time, don't get down son."

A good combination of fear with encouragement.

We just don't know.

But we do know that plenty of players fall all over themselves to play for Bill again. And its a good bet he's told most of them to f*** off at one point or another during a game. So something in your scenario is not adding up.

[davidyee]

but think about it, if O'Dea leaves, and Rackers still has the same success, isn't it an indication of how Hoffman failed as a kicking coach, cuz don't you think Hoffman was doing the same thing for Cundiff? but he hasn't progressed, he actually got worse this year...

... an advocate for having the kicking coach there on the sidelines. I dont' get this resistance? You can have Hoffman for cheap compared to a coordinator and he doesn't count ofn the salary cap.

If you don't like him go to this article to see the recap of Hoffman's work.

http://www.cowboysplus.com/topstorync/stories/011805cpcowlede.66b89.html

I can't justify everything for you guys, but I have to go with Jimmy on this one. This was a big mistake for Parcells and it has cost us.

[Bob Sacamano]

... an advocate for having the kicking coach there on the sidelines. I dont' get this resistance? You can have Hoffman for cheap compared to a coordinator and he doesn't count ofn the salary cap.

If you don't like him go to this article to see the recap of Hoffman's work.

http://www.cowboysplus.com/topstorync/stories/011805cpcowlede.66b89.html

I can't justify everything for you guys, but I have to go with Jimmy on this one. This was a big mistake for Parcells and it has cost us.

no resistence against Hoffman, just bring in a quality kicker and you have no use for him, the mistake BP made was cutting Hoffman loose w/o having a quality kicker

[WoodysGirl]

sidebar: I have to say I'm impressed we got a 100 post thread going and it's not about a quarterback. Amazing... :eek:








ok now back to your regular chitter-chatter:)

[davidyee]

The problem with all your arguments is that you only see what the television shows you.

For all you know after the game, the team walks into the locker room, Parcells mosey's on over to McBriar and throws his arm around him and gives him a big "we'll get 'em next time, don't get down son."

A good combination of fear with encouragement.

We just don't know.

But we do know that plenty of players fall all over themselves to play for Bill again. And its a good bet he's told most of them to f*** off at one point or another during a game. So something in your scenario is not adding up.

...it's not what we speculate in the behind the locker scenes that builds Parcells reputation with other players, it's what we see and read in the media.

What do you think Vinatieri knows about what goes on in the Dallas locker room? If he talks with Jerry the first thing he is going to say is Parcells comes off as a real donkey during the games and Belechick has added personal anecdotes to the same. How can you guarantee this is going to be a good situation for me to bring my talents to this team - SuperBowl or no SuperBowl?

Remember W-dog this guy already has three rings. As I've said before we are only going to get bites from kickers who are desperate for jobs, not the cream of the crop. And getting those types of kickers means we have to develop them not grind them to dust.

[davidyee]

sidebar: I have to say I'm impressed we got a 100 post thread going and it's not about a quarterback. Amazing... :eek:








ok now back to your regular chitter-chatter:)

...I'm only passionate about this topic because I believe it has been one of the principle reasons why the Cowboys are out of the playoffs.

I'm trying my darndest to put forward my useless opinion on how we can improve the situation all Cowboy fans are despondent over - from 7-3 to 9-7 in one month.

[Bob Sacamano]

ok now back to your regular chitter-chatter:)

is that all this is to you, chitter-chatter?!! *shakes fist*















;)

[WoodysGirl]

...I'm only passionate about this topic because I believe it has been one of the principle reasons why the Cowboys are out of the playoffs.

I'm trying my darndest to put forward my useless opinion on how we can improve the situation all Cowboy fans are despondent over - from 7-3 to 9-7 in one month.Hey no opinion is useless on this forum...


Carry on with vigor. I didn't want to interrupt, just wanted to chime in at the dialogue you guys got going... It is impressive.



Summerisfunner: keep ur fists to yourself or I'll sic a redskins fan on you. :)

[wileedog]

...it's not what we speculate in the behind the locker scenes that builds Parcells reputation with other players, it's what we see and read in the media.
Not even remotely. Players talk to other players - even kickers. I would bet most players in the league have a better idea what Bill is about than just about any guy in the media anywhere. And Bill wants it that way.

What do you think Vinatieri knows about what goes on in the Dallas locker room?
I bet if he was considering making amove to Dallas, he could make one or two phone calls and know more about life with Parcells than Randy Galloway ever will in a lifetime.


Remember W-dog this guy already has three rings. As I've said before we are only going to get bites from kickers who are desperate for jobs, not the cream of the crop. And getting those types of kickers means we have to develop them not grind them to dust.
Kickers go where the money is. Anybody with the ice in their veins to nail a 42 yarder with time expiring in playoff game is not going to have serious problems with a coach who throws around an expletive once in a while. You don't think they got 5 times worse from the fans every away game?

These guys aren't children, and kickers by nature HAVE to be tougher skinned than most.

This Dr. Phil routine you're pulling here is total hogwash.

[Bob Sacamano]

Summerisfunner: keep ur fists to yourself or I'll sic a redskins fan on you. :)

it could be worse, you could sic Nors on me and all his chest-thumping

[Kilyin]

Didn't Cundiff post in his online Journal that he'd been working with Hoffman during his hiatus from the team this season? Well if Hoffman was doing such wonders for Cundiff, why did he just have the worst collapse of his career and get cut?

[Cajuncowboy]

can't believe that they would rather have Hoffman and a non-descript kicker instead of a VIniteiri

WHo in the world in this thread said they would rather have a non-descript kicker? I sure didn't. I would love to have a guy like Vanderjact(sp) but the reality is that even those guys sometimes lose their stuff and even if they didn't, what is the likelyhood we get someone like that?

But no one on here said they would rather have a mediocre kicker and a good kicking coach. The point is that there is this stupid argument that we shouldn't have the coach. You talk about spending the money. It is a non issue. Jerry Jones loses more money by passing gas than what it would take to hire Hoffman back. Even with the so-called savior of Vandy or Venitieri, what would be the problem with having the coach?

Maybe some folks just like to argue for the sake of arguing when there really is nothing to argue about.

Yeah, let's get a great kicker in here. Let's also get a coach that specializes in kicking so if we need him, we have him. I don't get the resistance at all. It's crazy.

[Jimz31]

Didn't Cundiff post in his online Journal that he'd been working with Hoffman during his hiatus from the team this season? Well if Hoffman was doing such wonders for Cundiff, why did he just have the worst collapse of his career and get cut?
Ummmm...maybe you missed it....he did great during his try-out to make the team again. Got away from Hoffman and his fundamentals went to crap. Not that hard to figure out.

[davidyee]

no resistence against Hoffman, just bring in a quality kicker and you have no use for him, the mistake BP made was cutting Hoffman loose w/o having a quality kicker

... I think if you were talk to Vinatieri you would probably find him singing the praises of Brad Seeley. Although strictly a special teams coordinator with the Pats he has been instrumental in changing both Vinatieri, John Kasay and Robbie Gould's kicking motions to two step as opposed to the traditional three step.

He a practicianer of a simpler mechanical motion and has alot of respect int eh NFl coaching community for the work he has done.

Quality kickers are one thing, but there's no shred of evidence that good coaching in the kicking game is and has not been beneficial to any of the top kickers.

Whether that occurs through the additional of a specialist or not is of no consequence, what is important is that focus for the kicking game cannot be maligned.

As a point of interest, DeHaven is known asa a guy who needs a quality kicker first before he thinks he can do anything with him. Hoffman, Seely and O'Dea are of a different bent.

How good have kickers been under DeHaven's watch? Not very.

[wileedog]

Ummmm...maybe you missed it....he did great during his try-out to make the team again. Got away from Hoffman and his fundamentals went to crap. Not that hard to figure out.

And you really don't see this as a problem with the player?

He can't be away from his binky for 2 freaking weeks before turning to garbage?

[Kilyin]

Ummmm...maybe you missed it....he did great during his try-out to make the team again. Got away from Hoffman and his fundamentals went to crap. Not that hard to figure out.

Or he just choked...

[davidyee]

These guys aren't children, and kickers by nature HAVE to be tougher skinned than most.

This Dr. Phil routine you're pulling here is total hogwash.

...you watch this kid, Brad Gould who Vinatieri, Kasay and Brad Seely have taken under their wing.

He's kicking for the Bears and has been erratic to say the least. Not a good sign when you team has difficulty scoring TDs.

If he kept on the right course he will develop the right density of skin, but right now he doesn't have it. To be truthful he is really only a child in his professional career.

I would be willing to shoot down your Dr. Phil comment with many articles talking about how to properly develop kickers. They range from NCAA manuals to numerous articles on the WWW written by Special Teams Coaches and kicking coaches on how to handle developing kickers.

Most of them don't prescribe to the DeHaven Parcells method. Funny how you guys think the player is the solution.

It's called a TEAM, and that entity is comprised of players, administration, coaches, support staff. No one player walks in like and delivers wins. It's about the organization and culture you set up.

If you want a kicker who only cares about the money sign a guy like Janikowski.

[davidyee]

And you really don't see this as a problem with the player?

He can't be away from his binky for 2 freaking weeks before turning to garbage?

It could be that his mechanics altered, he's thinking too much about the kicks - who knows? The real question here is how does a kicker good enough to win a tryout and kick a 50 yarder to win a game to nothing but the trash heap.

Is this not DeHaven's fault also? he's ultimately one of the guys who picked this loser.

Funny how the blame is only the kicker's or Hoffman, but you guys are unwilling to talk about the coaching.

Remember, players play the games and coaches are suppose to make the right decisions to ensure the right players is in the right position to be successful. Based on the arguments I have heard this in this thread a certain amount of this lays at Bill feet.

[BigDFan5]

Funny how you guys think the player is the solution


yes what kind of idiots expect a kicker to be able to, I dont know MAKE EASY KICKS

[Bob Sacamano]

yes what kind of idiots expect a kicker to be able to, I dont know MAKE EASY KICKS

:lmao:

[BigDFan5]

Funny how the blame is only the kicker's or Hoffman, but you guys are unwilling to talk about the coaching.


Funny you have blamed everyone except Hoffman and the player himself.


Remember, players play the games and coaches are suppose to make the right decisions to ensure the right players is in the right position to be successful. Based on the arguments I have heard this in this thread a certain amount of this lays at Bill feet.




Cundiff missed from the 34 yard line he was in position to be successful yet he missed

[wileedog]

...you watch this kid, Brad Gould who Vinatieri, Kasay and Brad Seely have taken under their wing.

He's kicking for the Bears and has been erratic to say the least. Not a good sign when you team has difficulty scoring TDs.

If he kept on the right course he will develop the right density of skin, but right now he doesn't have it. To be truthful he is really only a child in his professional career.

He will be who he is under pressure. No amount of encouragement from afar by other kickers is going to change that.

He will grow up or he won't.

And by the way, why are Vinatieri, Kasay and Brad Seely "taking him under their wing"? Where's the resident kicking coach to make everything allright?


I would be willing to shoot down your Dr. Phil comment with many articles talking about how to properly develop kickers. They range from NCAA manuals to numerous articles on the WWW written by Special Teams Coaches and kicking coaches on how to handle developing kickers.

Most of them don't prescribe to the DeHaven Parcells method. Funny how you guys think the player is the solution.

It's called a TEAM, and that entity is comprised of players, administration, coaches, support staff. No one player walks in like and delivers wins. It's about the organization and culture you set up.
People make a lot of money writing articles, most of which add up to nothing.

Baseball players often go into slumps. Owners have spent millions trying everything from high-profile coaches, sports psychologists and Voodoo to break these slumps.

And 9 times out of 10 the player gets an infield single and suddenly breaks out of it all on his own.

Most of the time, it really is just all about the player.

If you want a kicker who only cares about the money sign a guy like Janikowski.
I think he cares more about beer. But then, who doesn't?

:beer1:

[davidyee]

yes what kind of idiots expect a kicker to be able to, I dont know MAKE EASY KICKS

...the league has had an alarming amount of kicks missed under 40 yards this year. The fields haven't changed, the equipment is the same...


mmm what kind of idiot thinks all kickers in the history of the NFL are perfect from the easy distance?

[davidyee]

He will be who he is under pressure. No amount of encouragement from afar by other kickers is going to change that.

He will grow up or he won't.

And by the way, why are Vinatieri, Kasay and Brad Seely "taking him under their wing"? Where's the resident kicking coach to make everything allright?



People make a lot of money writing articles, most of which add up to nothing.

Baseball players often go into slumps. Owners have spent millions trying everything from high-profile coaches, sports psychologists and Voodoo to break these slumps.

And 9 times out of 10 the player gets an infield single and suddenly breaks out of it all on his own.

Most of the time, it really is just all about the player.


I think he cares more about beer. But then, who doesn't?

:beer1:

Dave Toub has aconnection with Brad Seely and Seely still meets with Kasay and Vin in the offseason. Gould approach Seely on Taoub's recommendation in order to learn a more compact kicking motion.

Toub a coverage specialist and has made a league wide name for himself with that. He and Coiner have no kicking experience. They learned their lesson with Edinger and now have decided to get outside help.

[Bob Sacamano]

WHo in the world in this thread said they would rather have a non-descript kicker? I sure didn't. I would love to have a guy like Vanderjact(sp) but the reality is that even those guys sometimes lose their stuff and even if they didn't, what is the likelyhood we get someone like that?

But no one on here said they would rather have a mediocre kicker and a good kicking coach. The point is that there is this stupid argument that we shouldn't have the coach. You talk about spending the money. It is a non issue. Jerry Jones loses more money by passing gas than what it would take to hire Hoffman back. Even with the so-called savior of Vandy or Venitieri, what would be the problem with having the coach?

Maybe some folks just like to argue for the sake of arguing when there really is nothing to argue about.

Yeah, let's get a great kicker in here. Let's also get a coach that specializes in kicking so if we need him, we have him. I don't get the resistance at all. It's crazy.

the very reason for Hoffman even being employed with the Cowboys, was so that we could get away with being cheap at the Kicker position, and which we did, so I must assume that since you want Hoffman back, that you guys want to continue to be cheap at the K position, instead of actually investing in someone like a Vinetieri, someone that will be around for a long time, making countless clutch kicks

but I will concede that the only mistake Parcells made in firing Hoffman, was firing him witout a competent kicker around, because all our cheap alternatives need special attention, but I believe that's what Parcells wants, I think he wants to go out and get a real kicker, and there will be some good ones on the market, ones who dont' need a kicking coach

[wileedog]

Dave Toub has aconnection with Brad Seely and Seely still meets with Kasay and Vin in the offseason. Gould approach Seely on Taoub's recommendation in order to learn a more compact kicking motion.

Toub a coverage specialist and has made a league wide name for himself with that. He and Coiner have no kicking experience. They learned their lesson with Edinger and now have decided to get outside help.

None of which justifies the need to have a kicking coach around 24/7 to make 'adjustments' in Week 14 of the season. You don't learn a more "compact kicking motion" on Thursday so you can use it in the game on Sunday.

[Cajuncowboy]

the very reason for Hoffman even being employed with the Cowboys, was so that we could get away with being cheap at the Kicker position, and which we did, so I must assume that since you want Hoffman back, that you guys want to continue to be cheap at the K position, instead of actually investing in someone like a Vinetieri, someone that will be around for a long time, making countless clutch kicks

but I will concede that the only mistake Parcells made in firing Hoffman, was firing him witout a competent kicker around, because all our cheap alternatives need special attention, but I believe that's what Parcells wants, I think he wants to go out and get a real kicker, and there will be some good ones on the market, ones who dont' need a kicking coach

Don't assume anything. I want both. What's wrong with that?

[Bob Sacamano]

Don't assume anything. I want both. What's wrong with that?

you just need one, don't need a kicking coach if you have a good kicker

[davidyee]

None of which justifies the need to have a kicking coach around 24/7 to make 'adjustments' in Week 14 of the season. You don't learn a more "compact kicking motion" on Thursday so you can use it in the game on Sunday.

...you choose to run your team with turnstile kickers, then you better have someone in place to watch the quality control.

When the kicker isn't "quality" then what do you propose. What if all Parcells gets this season iss another Cortez? Are you going to accept DeHaven's version of kicker qualtiy control?

There is a real possiblity that you won't get what you wish for and we may end up with 2005 all over again. What's your contingency for that?

[davidyee]

you just need one, don't need a kicking coach if you have a good kicker

...don't have a good kicker? What if one doesn't show up this upcoming season?

[Shaun]

I was so ticked I decided to track him down and see if he was still available. Seems he is still interested in us. Here are the emails. The first was from me:

I just found your website and this email. If you are still available to coach, the Cowboys need you back badly. Firing you was the worst thing they could have done. If it were not for the bad kicking, the Boys would be in the playoffs. Anyway, I just wondered if you were with any other team or not.

Thanks Rob,

A Cowboys fan.

He also included his phone number in the email which shocked me but I will not include it here for obvious reasons.

Steve's reply:

Thanks for the kind thoughts, Rob.



I do consulting work for many NFL and major college teams now, helping out with their kickers, punters, and holders.



Perhaps someday the situation will change in Dallas and I will be able to return to the Cowboys, but for now I will do my best to be a positive influence on kickers and punters around the league and at the college level.

Sincerely,

Steve Hoffman



Let's get him on the phone Jerry. I have his number!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe you should take up a collection and start negotiations.

[wileedog]

...you choose to run your team with turnstile kickers, then you better have someone in place to watch the quality control.

When the kicker isn't "quality" then what do you propose. What if all Parcells gets this season iss another Cortez? Are you going to accept DeHaven's version of kicker qualtiy control?

There is a real possiblity that you won't get what you wish for and we may end up with 2005 all over again. What's your contingency for that?

I still haven't seen legitimate proof that a kicking coach makes a real difference.

The sample sizes even for Cundiff are very, very small and not statistically legit. He really could have just had a bad week or two which had nothing to do with a coach here or not.

Cortez sucked before he got here. He sucked after he left. There is no way in heck you can prove that he would have been any different with Hoffman on board.

Prove to me a full time kicking coach makes a difference during the season (not as an offseason consultant), and then maybe you have an arguement.

[Bob Sacamano]

...don't have a good kicker? What if one doesn't show up this upcoming season?

we're screwed

cuz even Cundiff with Hoffman was below-average

[BigDFan5]

...the league has had an alarming amount of kicks missed under 40 yards this year. The fields haven't changed, the equipment is the same...


mmm what kind of idiot thinks all kickers in the history of the NFL are perfect from the easy distance?


well according to you hoffman would have made this all different.

[Bob Sacamano]

BigDFan5 (http://cowboyszone.com/forums/member.php?u=3107) vbmenu_register("postmenu_693964", true);
Troll Slayer

:lmao:

[Kangaroo]

I still haven't seen legitimate proof that a kicking coach makes a real difference.

The sample sizes even for Cundiff are very, very small and not statistically legit. He really could have just had a bad week or two which had nothing to do with a coach here or not.

Cortez sucked before he got here. He sucked after he left. There is no way in heck you can prove that he would have been any different with Hoffman on board.

Prove to me a full time kicking coach makes a difference during the season (not as an offseason consultant), and then maybe you have an arguement.

Lets see Lin Elliot solid Kicker left Dallas tanked Chris Bonil good kicker left Dallas went to hail in a hand basket.

He got something out of Tim Seder

My how people forget what he meant durning the SB runs and the crap we ran out there. He turned them into solid kickers that does not even count punters and they left here and suxed big time arse.

So bang all you want you will still be wrong he did produce as a coach here

[TonyS]

Please, someone make this madness stop. :stop:


:thankyou:

[Jarv]

Of course you need a kicking coach, most teams have them...But heck, most teams have an OC too. Which we don't have.

[Zaxor]

He will be who he is under pressure. No amount of encouragement from afar by other kickers is going to change that.



Proper preparation prevents poor performance....

Knowing a little bit of training individuals (Drill Sergeant course) while people do perform differently under pressure most things if practiced correctly can be perfomed with effeciency under pressure..but first and for most is to build a convidence in the individual that he can do this (whatever the "this" is) then subject him to pressures building belief and trust in his own abilities to get the job done...this is proven to work...now Bill on the other hand seems to want to subject them to pressure in the belief that what don't kill you will make you stronger...this approach rarely works

[marsbennett]

I was so ticked I decided to track him down and see if he was still available. Seems he is still interested in us. Here are the emails. The first was from me:

I just found your website and this email. If you are still available to coach, the Cowboys need you back badly. Firing you was the worst thing they could have done. If it were not for the bad kicking, the Boys would be in the playoffs. Anyway, I just wondered if you were with any other team or not.

Thanks Rob,

A Cowboys fan.

He also included his phone number in the email which shocked me but I will not include it here for obvious reasons.

Steve's reply:

Thanks for the kind thoughts, Rob.



I do consulting work for many NFL and major college teams now, helping out with their kickers, punters, and holders.



Perhaps someday the situation will change in Dallas and I will be able to return to the Cowboys, but for now I will do my best to be a positive influence on kickers and punters around the league and at the college level.

Sincerely,

Steve Hoffman



Let's get him on the phone Jerry. I have his number!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I gotta hand it to ya, you are a man of faith!

It doesn't sound like he will be consulting with BP, does it? I don't know, we could always suggest it to the Big D organization with semi-mass emails. Perhaps, although I have seen no sign, Parcells has learned some lessons and is willing to learn from errors. Jerruh changed some so anyone can.

[Doomsday101]

No.

I'm saying I don't want to have to put up with that kind of mediocrity anymore.

We took a bunch of street free agents and rode whoever had a hot leg until it went cold.

And those hot legs were never better than average.

It took absolutely ZERO extra coaching.

The ability that Hoffman brought to the table was his ability to find street fa's and suggest them to the coaching staff.

:yawn:

What a messiah!

He provided us with average to below average kicking for a decade! Lets pay him a few hundred grand a year for being a scout who only scouts kickers, and never even finds good ones, only cheap ones!

I want a real kicker.

If you hadn't already decided that you personally like Hoffman (probably because you are an old-timey homer for the good ol days) and will stick up for him no matter how you have to stretch your argument...

.... you'd realize that you want a real kicker too.

I agree and I don't see the need in getting a kicking coach I see the need to get a kicker. Other team manage just fine without a kicking coach and to say keeping Hoffman would have made a difference in the kicking game I highly doubt that.

[marsbennett]

I agree and I don't see the need in getting a kicking coach I see the need to get a kicker. Other team manage just fine without a kicking coach and to say keeping Hoffman would have made a difference in the kicking game I highly doubt that.
There are coaches for nearly every other individual position on the team. Why, then, would we not want a coach for the position on the team that is responsible for scoring the most points?

[Doomsday101]

There are coaches for nearly every other individual position on the team. Why, then, would we not want a coach for the position on the team that is responsible for scoring the most points?

Every team out there manages just fine without a kicking coach, special team coach in the man in charge of the unit including the kicker. In the end the coach does not kick the ball the kicker does, bring in a kicker that can do the job. I don't think keeping Hoffman would have made any difference what so ever to the poor kicking we saw after all he had been working 1 on 1 with Cundiff before he resigned with the Cowboys and I don't see where any of that work paid off.

[NovaCowboy]

Of course you need a kicking coach, most teams have them...But heck, most teams have an OC too. Which we don't have.

hehe

So strue, Parcells is a one man show.

[NovaCowboy]

Every team out there manages just fine without a kicking coach, special team coach in the man in charge of the unit including the kicker. In the end the coach does not kick the ball the kicker does, bring in a kicker that can do the job. I don't think keeping Hoffman would have made any difference what so ever to the poor kicking we saw after all he had been working 1 on 1 with Cundiff before he resigned with the Cowboys and I don't see where any of that work paid off.

I wouldnt say every team out there manages just fine without a kicking coach. Starting with the Dallas Cowboys.

Hoffman made our kickers better, its a fact. He could have been the difference this season, another fact. Parcells is a dip!

[BARRYRAY]

I'm for anything that works, honestly the kicking game cost us the playoffs , there were other areas we were short, but a good kicker would have covered at least three of our losses, this guy won't be back, but BP sucks as a kicking coach, no one else can be blamed, he took on the reponsibility and he failed at it, we also screwed up bigtime by cutting the longsnapper, this area is so critical in the NFL and yet it doesn't get the attention it deserves and it will and did jump up and bite you..

[Doomsday101]

I wouldnt say every team out there manages just fine without a kicking coach. Starting with the Dallas Cowboys.

Hoffman made our kickers better, its a fact. He could have been the difference this season, another fact. Parcells is a dip!

That is your opinion I don't think Hoffman is the reason why Cundiff makes a kick or misses a kick. He was not that good to begin with. You want to improve the kicking game then get a good kicker it is as simple as that.

[NovaCowboy]

I'm for anything that works, honestly the kicking game cost us the playoffs , there were other areas we were short, but a good kicker would have covered at least three of our losses, this guy won't be back, but BP sucks as a kicking coach, no one else can be blamed, he took on the reponsibility and he failed at it, we also screwed up bigtime by cutting the longsnapper, this area is so critical in the NFL and yet it doesn't get the attention it deserves and it will and did jump up and bite you..

We started coming around before Parcells arrived here. We actuall spent good money on Jeff Robinson for his long snapping ability. Of course, Parcells, King of everything, decided he wasnt worth the dough. The rest is history.

[ConcordCowboy]

Let's face it....what Jimmy Johnson said was correct....One fo BP's biggest mistakes was letting Hoffman go.


Well since a lot of people around here are fond of saying They'll take Parcells opinion over a board member...because he's won 2 Super Bowls...


I'll take Jimmy Johnsons' opinion over people here saying Hoffman didn't make a difference because Johnson won 2 Super Bowls IN Dallas and he hired Hoffman and knows how valuable he is.

[InmanRoshi]

How many phenomenal kickers did Hoffman develop? Boniol was the only one who even came close to an 85% completion rate. Hoffman is reaching Jamar Martin level of overrated.

[Doomsday101]

How many phenomenal kickers did Hoffman develop? Boniol was the only one who even came close to an 85% completion rate. Hoffman is reaching Jamar Martin level of overrated.

I agree he is not a cure all for Dallas kicking problems. I don't dislike him and if he did return I would not object but I also don't think having him on staff makes that much of a difference.

[ConcordCowboy]

How many phenomenal kickers did Hoffman develop? Boniol was the only one who even came close to an 85% completion rate. Hoffman is reaching Jamar Martin level of overrated.

You could say the same thing about Parcells.

[InmanRoshi]

You could say the same thing about Parcells.

I could, but I'd look like a complete idiot if I did.

[Verdict]

:bang2: Never has such a insignifigant coach gotten so much attention

How is he insignificant? Are you referring to his job performance? Are you referring to the position he coaches? It seemed like he got decent performance out of undrafted free agents when he was here. I'm not bashing you, just trying to figure out your perspective.

[ConcordCowboy]

I could, but I'd look like a complete idiot if I did.

You are what you are....Which at this point is overrated...don't get mad at the messenger.

[BigDFan5]

Of course you need a kicking coach, most teams have them...But heck, most teams have an OC too. Which we don't have.


actually no teams have a kicking coach

[marsbennett]

Every team out there manages just fine without a kicking coach, special team coach in the man in charge of the unit including the kicker. In the end the coach does not kick the ball the kicker does, bring in a kicker that can do the job. I don't think keeping Hoffman would have made any difference what so ever to the poor kicking we saw after all he had been working 1 on 1 with Cundiff before he resigned with the Cowboys and I don't see where any of that work paid off.
I see...everyone else does it.

I'm not going to stand up for Kotex or Cundiff, but since it doensn't count against any cap, I don't understand why not? Oh yeah, noone else does it. We used to and we've been better than we were this past season at the kicking position. A ST coach has to take care of all ST activity. I maintain that one person doesn't have the time to be a technique specialist or psychologist for the kicking position. Hell, all our Oline coaches and OC failed to see you center tipping off the snap count until captain TIVO made it public.

Ignore the highest scoring position on the team because everyone else does? I need more reason than that. We'd all still be riding horses with that mentality.

[Rockytop6]

I read it a little differently. Translation: When Parcells leaves then maybe the Cowboys will have a HC that will want me back.

[Bob Sacamano]

Proper preparation prevents poor performance....

Knowing a little bit of training individuals (Drill Sergeant course) while people do perform differently under pressure most things if practiced correctly can be perfomed with effeciency under pressure..but first and for most is to build a convidence in the individual that he can do this (whatever the "this" is) then subject him to pressures building belief and trust in his own abilities to get the job done...this is proven to work...now Bill on the other hand seems to want to subject them to pressure in the belief that what don't kill you will make you stronger...this approach rarely works

seems alot of the players under BIll likes his no-nonsense, straightforward, tell it like it is, approach, even those who hated it, Phil Simms, Bledsoe, after awhile saw the advantages to their careers that spawned from it, so yeah, I kinda think Parcells' strategy for teaching players works...

[Bob Sacamano]

I agree and I don't see the need in getting a kicking coach I see the need to get a kicker. Other team manage just fine without a kicking coach and to say keeping Hoffman would have made a difference in the kicking game I highly doubt that.

case in point

we had Hoffman last year, Cundiff was below-average

[Bob Sacamano]

We started coming around before Parcells arrived here. We actuall spent good money on Jeff Robinson for his long snapping ability. Of course, Parcells, King of everything, decided he wasnt worth the dough. The rest is history.

LMFAO! really? 3 consecutive years of 5-11 is coming around?

[Bob Sacamano]

we also screwed up bigtime by cutting the longsnapper, this area is so critical in the NFL and yet it doesn't get the attention it deserves and it will and did jump up and bite you..

long-snapping had no effect on Cundiff and Cortez shanking kicks

[Bob Sacamano]

Ignore the highest scoring position on the team because everyone else does? I need more reason than that. We'd all still be riding horses with that mentality.

noone said ignore the kicking position, just said bring in a real kicker, and get over Hoffman

[wileedog]

We started coming around before Parcells arrived here.
What team were you watching?

We actuall spent good money on Jeff Robinson for his long snapping ability. Of course, Parcells, King of everything, decided he wasnt worth the dough. The rest is history.

The snapping was fine once we got the French guy, and now we are set at long snapper for years to come assuming he can maintain his performance.

Damn I hate when Parcells goes and plans for the future.

[NovaCowboy]

LMFAO! really? 3 consecutive years of 5-11 is coming around?

No, I meant in terms of kicking.

[davidyee]

Every team out there manages just fine without a kicking coach, special team coach in the man in charge of the unit including the kicker. In the end the coach does not kick the ball the kicker does, bring in a kicker that can do the job. I don't think keeping Hoffman would have made any difference what so ever to the poor kicking we saw after all he had been working 1 on 1 with Cundiff before he resigned with the Cowboys and I don't see where any of that work paid off.

...Hoffman couldn't do anything about it - he's not on the damn team!!! Get it! He's not on the sidelines, he's not in practice, he's friggin nowhere except by phone to Cundiff!

A person's effort's cannot be graded by something that has occurred weeks before. It's seems Parcells is willing to acknowledge Cundiff's ability at the time of the tryout, but dismisses it in week 16 and cuts the guy.

What changed? Definitely not Hoffman. He may have been there a few days before the tryout, but he wasn't there in week 16.

If there's any coaching blame I would put some of it on DeHaven.

[Doomsday101]

...Hoffman couldn't do anything about it - he's not on the damn team!!! Get it! He's not on the sidelines, he's not in practice, he's friggin nowhere except by phone to Cundiff!

A person's effort's cannot be graded by something that has occurred weeks before. It's seems Parcells is willing to acknowledge Cundiff's ability at the time of the tryout, but dismisses it in week 16 and cuts the guy.

What changed? Definitely not Hoffman. He may have been there a few days before the tryout, but he wasn't there in week 16.

If there's any coaching blame I would put some of it on DeHaven.

I don't care if you blame DeHaven I blame Cundiff after all he missed the damn kicks and ones that are considered fairly easy when talking inside 40 yards. As far as Hoffman if he is that damn good make him a special teams coach or have him kick the damn FG but bottom line is the coaches did not miss easy FG Cundiff did you want to blame someone then blame the guy who could not hit the side of a fricken barn.

[davidyee]

I don't care if you blame DeHaven I blame Cundiff after all he missed the damn kicks and ones that are considered fairly easy when talking inside 40 yards. As far as Hoffman if he is that damn good make him a special teams coach or have him kick the damn FG but bottom line is the coaches did not miss easy FG Cundiff did you want to blame someone then blame the guy who could not hit the side of a fricken barn.

...of smoking that 50+ yard barn in his first game back! :rolleyes:

The issue that everyone misses is that premium kickers are not grown on trees - most assuredly trees in Dallas.

Having a person like Hoffman is insurance against your kicker going south on you which every kicker has had at some kick in his career. Including Vinatieri for 32 yards this year.

I noticed that Parcells brings in Wolf every camp and preseason to help him evaluate the state of the talent he has, what's wrong with a kicking coach?

I just don't understand posters who have no sense of building insurance and contingency plans. It's part of running an organization.

[Doomsday101]

1 kick sorry I look at the whole picture not 1 kick. Other kickers around this league manage just fine without having a kicking coach. Get a kicker who can handle the pressure and hit FG that should be made. I don't understand poster who try to push the blame on other. Cundiff is a big boy he was given the oppertunity and he blew it. Parcells did not miss the easy kicks that was Cundiff, the only mistake Bill made was to give Cundiff the chance to begin with.

[InmanRoshi]

No, I meant in terms of kicking.



The results of Steve Hoffman from 2000-2002, before Parcells got here, fluctuated midlly from below mediocre to poor.


2000 Tim Sedar - 75% completion rate

2001 Tim Sedar - 64.7% completion rate
John Hilbert - 68.7% completion rate

2002 Billy Cundiff - 63.8% completion rate

Over all, in 14 years tenure, he found exactly 1 very good kicker in Chris Boniol that kicked well his entire tenure with the Cowboys. He had a few kickers that had one good year, but fell apart and couldn't survive a slump the later in their tenure (Ritchie Cunningham, Lynn Elliot). Those that say he never had a proven commodity to with forget that twice we wiped the cobwebs off of Eddie Murray to replace a failed Hoffman experiment. They also don't seem to notice that most kickers in the NFL came from absolutely nowhere. Most teams don't spend any money on them unless they have a proven one they want to retain. Many kickers who do catch on have failed with at least 1 club before catching on. In the end, for 14 years of trial and error looking for kickers, Hoffman might know the mechanics of kicking inside out, but he had no more success discovering them than any other NFL team.

[joseephuss]

...of smoking that 50+ yard barn in his first game back! :rolleyes:

The issue that everyone misses is that premium kickers are not grown on trees - most assuredly trees in Dallas.

Having a person like Hoffman is insurance against your kicker going south on you which every kicker has had at some kick in his career. Including Vinatieri for 32 yards this year.

I noticed that Parcells brings in Wolf every camp and preseason to help him evaluate the state of the talent he has, what's wrong with a kicking coach?

I just don't understand posters who have no sense of building insurance and contingency plans. It's part of running an organization.

Ask the Bengals to pick the Cowboys new kicker. Neil Rackers started his career in Cincy and they let him go for Graham. I believe they finished 1 and 2 on this seasons all-pro team.

[davidyee]

1 kick sorry I look at the whole picture not 1 kick. Other kickers around this league manage just fine without having a kicking coach. Get a kicker who can handle the pressure and hit FG that should be made. I don't understand poster who try to push the blame on other. Cundiff is a big boy he was given the oppertunity and he blew it. Parcells did not miss the easy kicks that was Cundiff, the only mistake Bill made was to give Cundiff the chance to begin with.

...on you having to see the actual listed position of kicking coach on the team roster.

In fact, for the Pats and the Cardinals this year you can practically call both Seely and O'Dea "kicking gurus" because of the approach and the attention they give to the position and the players.

It would not be a far stretch to say that Hoffman has a very similar approach to kickers that these two gentlemen have and they have fared pretty well with kickers these past two years.

You really have to take a look at Vinny's and Rackers records prior to their association with these coaches tat can shed some light on what the coaches and their approach as brought to the kicking table.

As I posted earlier, DeHaven's approach is not the same. His approach infers that quality kickers are born,not made. Last time I crunched the numbers off of NFL.com for a thread between Nors and I, rookie kickers fare quite poorly until they adjust to the pro game - not unlike 90% of the oter rookies at other positions.

Let's not sit here an belittle the position. There's rationale for what's been happening in this league. If the Cowboys can't find an experienced, quality kicker they are going to have to spend more time with a second tier prospect and coach him to success. It's as simple as that.

That won't happen with a bunch of "homer" posters thinking that the Cowboys are going to sign the next Vinatieri.

[davidyee]

The results of Steve Hoffman from 2000-2002, before Parcells got here, fluctuated midlly from below mediocre to poor.


2000 Tim Sedar - 75% completion rate

2001 Tim Sedar - 64.7% completion rate
John Hilbert - 68.7% completion rate

2002 Billy Cundiff - 63.8% completion rate

Over all, in 14 years tenure, he found exactly 1 very good kicker in Chris Boniol that kicked well his entire tenure with the Cowboys. He had a few kickers that had one good year, but fell apart and couldn't survive a slump the later in their tenure (Ritchie Cunningham, Lynn Elliot). Those that say he never had a proven commodity to with forget that twice we wiped the cobwebs off of Eddie Murray to replace a failed Hoffman experiment. They also don't seem to notice that most kickers in the NFL came from absolutely nowhere. Most teams don't spend any money on them unless they have a proven one they want to retain. Many kickers who do catch on have failed with at least 1 club before catching on. In the end, for 14 years of trial and error looking for kickers, Hoffman might know the mechanics of kicking inside out, but he had no more success discovering them than any other NFL team.

...why don't we put this list in perspective.

Seder - rookie who was on no one's radar. Not physically gifted, everyone knew that at the combine. He was teaching at the time.

2nd year Seder - he was injured, and not just a bit. Ended his career. Hibbert stop gap, end of story. That's why he was available.

Cundiff - rookie. Not unlike many rookies who enter the league as kickers. Difficult adjustment and kicks in a bigger arena, it's not a surprise he kicked a low percentage, but look at his next two years of completions high 70's.

What's really telling about Boniol, Seder, Lindell, Cunningham and Cundiff is the price Dallas paid for these guys in their first years.

Basically the price of a burger and two fries.

What's that? You get what you pay for?

[Cajuncowboy]

Well here is an update. I replied back to him asking a question regarding who he thought would be a good prospect and I aksed him about the chances of him returning. I will not print what he wrote but let me just say this, As long as Parcells is there, Steve Hoffman will not be back. Period. End of story.

[InmanRoshi]

That was his job. He was the only kicking-only coach in the NFL because he was supposed to find and develop NFL quality kickers. He wasn't doing his job. What's the point in having him if you're going to sign proven, veteran kickers? He should get down on his hands and knees and be thankfull he ever had a specialty job like that in the first place when no other franchise in the league thinks they are necessary.

[davidyee]

That was his job. He was the only kicking-only coach in the NFL because he was supposed to find and develop NFL quality kickers. He wasn't doing his job. What's the point in having him if you're going to sign proven, veteran kickers? He should get down on his hands and knees and be thankfull he ever had a specialty job like that in the first place when no other franchise in the league thinks they are necessary.

...we don't know what his operating restrictions were. What is obvious is that Hoffman never pursued young rookie free agaents who were involved in a bidding war for their services. ie. signing bonuses for attending camp.

From what I saw Hoffman took Chicken **** and made Chicken soup out of it on a regular basis.

I'm not a specific Hoffman supporter, but I'm a definite advocate of specialty coaches to enhance athletes' performance - geez like our team's morality guy.

[davidyee]

go look it up our kickers were 74% this year and last year a whopping 76% under Hoffman the great. Big friggin difference

...as per NFL.com Cundiff's stats for 2005 are 62% this year and Suisham's was 75% on 3 out of 4 and Cortez was 75%. That works out to 70% for the lot.

Last year was all Cundiff at 76.9%. More importantly, Cundiff's change from one year to the other is dramatic.