Drafting oline is a win,win... [Archive] - Dallas Cowboys Forum

demdcowboys#1

01-30-2006, 06:52 PM

Hell yeah its a win-win. We cant just draft OL, we must acquire some via Free Agency, i mean who knows how good these guys'll be coming outta college. If we get some FA's we will know how they have played, and will be able to improve the line. I like Jon Runyan of Philadelphia to fill the RT position. There are tons of OL FA's so who knows who BP will bring in. I just hope he brings in people that will seriously impact and improve the OL greatly. Bledsoe will have more time, Jones will have room to run, we wont be facing long 2nd or 3rd downs, and we will be str8.

Paniolo22

01-30-2006, 06:53 PM

It's only a win win if the lineman are any good. With our history, it could be lose lose.

ghst187

01-30-2006, 06:57 PM

Hiero

01-30-2006, 07:00 PM

mangold or Gean-Jiles are the only guys i'm really interested in considering our draft position and needs and that only in the 2nd round or 3rd. I think that any OL we expect to come in and start will have to be signed via FA and we probably need at least one FA OL.
I agree, I am going to be angry if we don't get at least one OL first day, preferably the first rd. We need at least 1 tackle and 1 G/C, maybe more.

DragonCowboy

01-30-2006, 07:04 PM

wow juckie, after reading your post, I felt really good. Thank you for that.

Parcells will get it done. Last draft, when the defense was atrocious, Parcells fixed it up, and we now have one of the best defenses( maybe even better than the Redskins' when healthy). This draft/FA, our O-Line will be atrocious, but BP will get it done. Super Bowl Contenders of 2007!

Hostile

01-30-2006, 07:13 PM

So the plan is to stay just below the wildcard slot or make the wild card?

I'm afraid that is the best just focusing on the OL will accomplish.

DragonCowboy

01-30-2006, 07:18 PM

So the plan is to stay just below the wildcard slot or make the wild card?

I'm afraid that is the best just focusing on the OL will accomplish.

well there's always the occasional kicker who can actually kick the ball between the bars, linebackers, and a FS might be nice :starspin

MichaelWinicki

01-30-2006, 08:41 PM

We won't be drafting an offensive lineman in the first round.

AbeBeta

01-30-2006, 08:47 PM

Gean-Jiles

He looks good. But something screams Aaron Gibson to me.

big dog cowboy

01-30-2006, 09:03 PM

We won't be drafting an offensive lineman in the first round.
My God we agree. :eek:

Gotta write that on the calender.

Maybe great minds just think alike tonight. :)

Alexander

01-30-2006, 09:13 PM

We cant just draft OL, we must acquire some via Free Agency.

If we don't come out of free agency with some help for the OL, I think we are in deep trouble.

Besides, I don't believe Coach Parcells is excited about starting another rookie on the offensive line. I am sure we will go after OL, but that doesn't necessarily mean we are married to the idea of taking one high.

Hiero

01-30-2006, 09:15 PM

We won't be drafting an offensive lineman in the first round.
If not teh first definitely the second. Hopefully the first.

StanleySpadowski

01-30-2006, 09:23 PM

We won't be drafting an offensive lineman in the first round.

Right as rain on that.

Adams won't be replaced and I really think that Pettiti is everything that Parcells wants in a tackle (he'll play hurt without complaint, he's a Jersey boy, he's a late rounder whose success stokes Parcells' ego).

Guards and centers just don't historically go at 18 or higher.

neosapien23

01-30-2006, 09:26 PM

Can someone tell me what linemen are free agents. Runyan? The guy has Marco Rivera written all over him. He has had multiple injuries and has seen his ability drop. Backus? I'm not entirely sure that a talented rookie in the 2nd like McNeil or O'Callagan will not outplay him. Guards available? Pickings are mightly slim. On the other hand we can fill the OLB spot with a young talented player with Adoyele who is extremely young. Fujita could be moved to the inside if Burnett is still not ready. Dallas might be better served trading our first for a really high 2nd pick. Our draft could go like this.
2nd Guilles
2nd McNeil or O'Callaghan
3rd Anderson or another DE/OLB tweener.
Next year we could pick up Brady Quinn with 2 first round picks and wouldn't have to reach for a position that we desperately need this year.

Manster68

01-30-2006, 09:51 PM

situation.Bledsoe will thrive as well as romo,henson or schaub,etc....Jules will thrive.Its all starts in the line.Parcells will FIX it!

Juckie,

I do not think anybody on these boards recognize the importance of a dominant offensive line more than me. Even in today's parity drunk NFL, the Super Bowl winner has always had solid offensive lines.

Lombardi's Packers, Shula's Dolphins, Noll's Steelers, Landry's and Johnson's Cowboys (Switzer's also may have been the best of all time), the Raiders with their three Hall of Famers, Gibb's hogs, Parcells' Giants along with New England, Denver and San Francisco all had numerous offensive lineman representing them in their respective Pro Bowls.

Yes, the offensive line is of such importance.

However, as far as this offseason is concerned...

...I do not see Dallas going offensive line in the draft until the 3rd round (despite the troubles the Cowboys had last season).

Why?

1. Dallas' top priority on the offensive line to address is NOT TACKLE, but CENTER!

Al Johnson kept getting blown off the ball. Bledsoe on many occasions could not step up in the pocket to deliver a pass. This helped allow the outside speed rushers to succeed getting to Bledsoe. It wasn't all Petitti's and Tucker's fault as amny posters have roasted them.

I am telling you now folks, PETITTI IS DALLAS' RIGHT TACKLE FOR YEARS TO COME! Get used to it - he will improve and make us proud. Nobody was complaining about Petitti before Flozell went down.

Which leads to #2.

2. Flozell is coming back. We do miss him now, don't we Cowboy fans?

3. There is not a center in the draft worthy of a #1 round (or even 2nd round) pick. Mangold seems to be the only possibility except for Eslinger. However they suffer the same problem as Al Johnson. They are both very light. They will get blown off the ball as well.

THIS IS WHY LeCHARLES BENTLEY IS SO IMPORTANT!

4. Who knows what Dallas has in Colombo? If he can return to form before his injury, Dallas might not need to look for another tackle.

This is why I don't see Dallas addressing offensive line in the first round of the draft. There will be good offensive linemen in the 3rd round to chose from.

big dog cowboy

01-30-2006, 10:01 PM

Simply a great post.

DLCassidy

01-30-2006, 10:06 PM

However, as far as this offseason is concerned...

...I do not see Dallas going offensive line in the draft until the 3rd round (despite the troubles the Cowboys had last season).

Why?

1. Dallas' top priority on the offensive line to address is NOT TACKLE, but CENTER!

Al Johnson kept getting blown off the ball. Bledsoe on many occasions could not step up in the pocket to deliver a pass. This helped allow the outside speed rushers to succeed getting to Bledsoe. It wasn't all Petitti's and Tucker's fault as amny posters have roasted them.

I am telling you now folks, PETITTI IS DALLAS' RIGHT TACKLE FOR YEARS TO COME! Get used to it - he will improve and make us proud. Nobody was complaining about Petitti before Flozell went down.

Which leads to #2.

2. Flozell is coming back. We do miss him now, don't we Cowboy fans?

3. There is not a center in the draft worthy of a #1 round (or even 2nd round) pick. Mangold seems to be the only possibility except for Eslinger. However they suffer the same problem as Al Johnson. They are both very light. They will get blown off the ball as well.

THIS IS WHY LeCHARLES BENTLEY IS SO IMPORTANT!

4. Who knows what Dallas has in Colombo? If he can return to form before his injury, Dallas might not need to look for another tackle.

This is why I don't see Dallas addressing offensive line in the first round of the draft. There will be good offensive linemen in the 3rd round to chose from.

Bentley would be a nice addition. But Johnson was no way as big a problem as the tackles. Tucker and Petitti allowed 24 sacks and that's with help. Johnson allowed 1.

Now to be fair, Petitti may improve. Tucker may grow a brain. Columbo may be comeback player of the year. TO might be a model citizen for his new team. Gas prices may fall.

We may not go OT in round 1. But we will by round 2 I hope.

StanleySpadowski

01-30-2006, 10:10 PM

Bentley would be a nice addition. But Johnson was no way as big a problem as the tackles. Tucker and Petitti allowed 24 sacks and that's with help. Johnson allowed 1.

Now to be fair, Petitti may improve. Tucker may grow a brain. Columbo may be comeback player of the year. TO might be a model citizen for his new team. Gas prices may fall.

We may not go OT in round 1. But we will by round 2 I hope.

I keep telling you people (just for Juke) that the problem is LG. Don't believe me but see where the team upgrades this off-season.

Bob Sacamano

01-30-2006, 10:56 PM

my plan

sign Kevin Barry in FA, and draft Ryan Colledge or Ryan O'Callaghan in the 3rd

PacoReloaded

01-30-2006, 11:03 PM

situation.Bledsoe will thrive as well as romo,henson or schaub,etc....Jules will thrive.Its all starts in the line.Parcells will FIX it!
Not with our recent luck at drafting OL.

neosapien23

01-30-2006, 11:05 PM

I keep telling you people (just for Juke) that the problem is LG. Don't believe me but see where the team upgrades this off-season.

Everyone is right. Center, guard, and the tackle position need major improvement. Bentley is a must sign because of his ability to play both guard and center at a probowl level. Flozell Adams is the only lineman that can be counted on next season. Will Johnson be able to improve? Will Rivera return to form? Will Pettitti be able to handle the speed of pass rushers? Will Larry Allen take a paycut? Too many questions and not enough answers. Sign Bentley and draft a tackle and a guard. We cannot take that many chances.
We should probably trade our 1st for a high 2nd pick and a first next year so we are not reaching for Guilles. We could then draft McNeil or Callaghan to man the right side. Bentely could start for either Rivera or Johnson. The weakest person loses his job.

Adams, Guilles, Johnson/Bentley, Rivera/Bentley, McNeil/O'Callaghan

burmafrd

01-31-2006, 06:11 AM

There were definitly times that the middle of the line did not maintain their part of the pocket. A QB needs to be able to step up in the pocket which allows the tackles to take the inside away from the DE's and force them to come around, buying the QB more time. Bledsoe on quite a few occasions could not step up- and that did add to the sack totals blamed on the tackles. Johnson - and this is coming from everywhere not just the boards- was overwhelmed and forced backwards much more then a good center should be.

Jarv

01-31-2006, 07:19 AM

Beofre we go into FA and draft for the O-line...I would like the coaching staff to determine what kind of scheme and players that we need. I didn't like the line play last year, I think many agree. Was it the coaching ? Scheme ? Just the players sucked ?

Lets fix that 1st. Are we going with a more mobile line that includes pulling and trapping or sweeping ? Maulers for straight ahead power blocking ? Zone blocking ?

Just to say we need so and so from wherever, lets figure out what kind of line we are going to build and then get the players that fit that Scheme.

shnagy

01-31-2006, 08:54 AM

I wont be mad if we draft an o-lineman in the first round. We need another tackle, a center, and a replacement for LA. We need to get some depth in FA also. I think this is a draft that I would rather have the BPA rather than drafting for need.

juck

01-31-2006, 09:02 AM

yes,center is of main importance i think.the whole line needs to be upgraded for the future and we we be set.

DLCassidy

01-31-2006, 09:34 AM

I keep telling you people (just for Juke) that the problem is LG. Don't believe me but see where the team upgrades this off-season.

Larry Allen is a shell of the hall of fame player he once was. But let's not go over the top here. Let's break it down for the starting OL for the last 10 games:

LT- Tucker- worst LT in the NFL
LG- Allen- average guard- middle of the road, not Pro Bowl, not the worst
C- Johnson- below average center- maybe bottom 1/4
RG- Rivera- below average guard- maybe bottom 1/4
RT- Petitti- (with respect to his injury)- worst RT in the NFL

So tell me again how LA is the problem? LA will take a good sized pay cut and be back this year. Unless we get Steve Hutchinson there is no obvious replacement out there. I wouldn't mind Chris Spencer of Pitt late 2nd to groom for next year though.

ABQCOWBOY

01-31-2006, 10:18 AM

If an OT is there that we like, we will draft him. I don't really think there's any question at all about this. Adams is coming off an injury. Pettiti has heart, there is no question. I suspect he has work ethic as well but the jury is definatly out as to the actual physical capability. I like him but liking him and knowing he's the guy are two different things. Columbo might be the wild card here. Nobody knows where he's at physically. If he's right, he is probably the second best OT prospect, behind Ferguson, in this draft. The guy has talent. Tucker just needs to be moved along IMO.

The best possible solution, to me, is a trade down. If we can get somebody to trade with us, then I'd be for trading down and picking up an extra 2nd/3rd and possibly a 1 next year. That, to me would put us at good value and position to take a Guard, Center and/or OT. JMO of course.

BTW, I would look into Mike Williams in Buffalo. He has seriously under achieved there but his talent didn't just dry up and go away. I watched him play in college and he was dominating. Very talented player. Something went very wrong there. I think that a change of venue is just what he might need. He is as physically gifted as anybody, again outside of Ferguson, in this draft. He might be a value pick up that could pay huge dividends. I just don't see LaCharles ever being available but if he were, I'd take him in a heart beat. I would also look at Mangold very closely.

Zimmy Lives

01-31-2006, 10:21 AM

If we don't come out of free agency with some help for the OL, I think we are in deep trouble.

Besides, I don't believe Coach Parcells is excited about starting another rookie on the offensive line. I am sure we will go after OL, but that doesn't necessarily mean we are married to the idea of taking one high.

I don't think he would be averse to starting a rookie guard or center this year. I seriously doubt, though, that he starts a rookie tackle two years in a row.

wileedog

01-31-2006, 10:34 AM

Larry Allen is a shell of the hall of fame player he once was. But let's not go over the top here. Let's break it down for the starting OL for the last 10 games:

LT- Tucker- worst LT in the NFL
LG- Allen- average guard- middle of the road, not Pro Bowl, not the worst
C- Johnson- below average center- maybe bottom 1/4
RG- Rivera- below average guard- maybe bottom 1/4
RT- Petitti- (with respect to his injury)- worst RT in the NFL

So tell me again how LA is the problem? LA will take a good sized pay cut and be back this year. Unless we get Steve Hutchinson there is no obvious replacement out there. I wouldn't mind Chris Spencer of Pitt late 2nd to groom for next year though.

Well, I don't know if LA is THE problem, but he certainly is A problem.

Mostly because of everyone you have listed here, he is the only likely to decline even further.

Tucker won't start, Flo will. Upgrade.

Johnson was much more effective in 2004 with a full strength Gurode on one side of him and a better LA on the other. Its too soon to write him off IMO. Furthermore Parcells puts a lot of value in C play, so we'll probably see some competition for Johnson brought in.

Rivera had the back injury, and while he might stay about the same he might also be improved somewhat a year removed from that injury. ALthough he is getting up there in years too.

Pettiti will almost definately improve with a year in the weight room and a full season under his belt. Plus with a 6th round contract he is the most likely to face stiff competition brought in through FA or the draft, so one way or the other I fully expect a big improvement at RT next season.

If we stick to our guns with Larry then LG is the only spot on the line you can look at and say not only are we likely not to see any improvement, we will likely see further decline. Its happened for two years straight, I don't see any compelling reason to think he won't only decline further.

StanleySpadowski

01-31-2006, 11:00 AM

Larry Allen is a shell of the hall of fame player he once was. But let's not go over the top here. Let's break it down for the starting OL for the last 10 games:

LT- Tucker- worst LT in the NFL
LG- Allen- average guard- middle of the road, not Pro Bowl, not the worst
C- Johnson- below average center- maybe bottom 1/4
RG- Rivera- below average guard- maybe bottom 1/4
RT- Petitti- (with respect to his injury)- worst RT in the NFL

So tell me again how LA is the problem? LA will take a good sized pay cut and be back this year. Unless we get Steve Hutchinson there is no obvious replacement out there. I wouldn't mind Chris Spencer of Pitt late 2nd to groom for next year though.

In an open competition without the name on the back of the jersey, Allen would be lucky to start for any other NFL team, even the Texans. 50% of the team's blocking problems this year were due to lack of effort and the two main culprits were Allen and Witten.

The other 50% of their problems were scheme related because Allen's biggest weakness, his lack of mobility is the greatest strength for the other interior lineman. Rewatching the season, I saw plenty of times where Johnson got to the second level and took out a linebacker but that block was moot because Allen didn't move a foot allowing his man to make the tackle (or Witten wouldn't even attempt to seal and his man would crash for the tackle) and the running back never got past the LOS.

Chocolate Lab

01-31-2006, 11:21 AM

In an open competition without the name on the back of the jersey, Allen would be lucky to start for any other NFL team, even the Texans. 50% of the team's blocking problems this year were due to lack of effort and the two main culprits were Allen and Witten.

The other 50% of their problems were scheme related because Allen's biggest weakness, his lack of mobility is the greatest strength for the other interior lineman. Rewatching the season, I saw plenty of times where Johnson got to the second level and took out a linebacker but that block was moot because Allen didn't move a foot allowing his man to make the tackle (or Witten wouldn't even attempt to seal and his man would crash for the tackle) and the running back never got past the LOS.
Excellent post. Agree completely.

Besides Allen's spotty play, Witten looked like a terrible blocker to me this year.

Manster68

01-31-2006, 01:23 PM

I don't think he would be averse to starting a rookie guard or center this year. I seriously doubt, though, that he starts a rookie tackle two years in a row.

Which is percisly why Dallas will not draft a tackle in round one (or even the first day for that matter).

Manster68

01-31-2006, 01:26 PM

In an open competition without the name on the back of the jersey, Allen would be lucky to start for any other NFL team, even the Texans. 50% of the team's blocking problems this year were due to lack of effort and the two main culprits were Allen and Witten.

The other 50% of their problems were scheme related because Allen's biggest weakness, his lack of mobility is the greatest strength for the other interior lineman. Rewatching the season, I saw plenty of times where Johnson got to the second level and took out a linebacker but that block was moot because Allen didn't move a foot allowing his man to make the tackle (or Witten wouldn't even attempt to seal and his man would crash for the tackle) and the running back never got past the LOS.

Stanley,

I respect your opinion, but I think you are way too critical of Larry Allen. He made a lot of crushing blocks the past couple of seasons and he deserves the Pro Bowl berth.

StanleySpadowski

01-31-2006, 02:20 PM

Stanley,

I respect your opinion, but I think you are way too critical of Larry Allen. He made a lot of crushing blocks the past couple of seasons and he deserves the Pro Bowl berth.

As a point of clarification, I'm very critical of Allen's play the last few seasons, but I do think he's one of the five best OL players of all time.

And yes, he has made a lot of crushing blocks the last couple of seasons. That's why a majority of fans don't see his liabilities. Offensive lineman only get noticed when they crush someone or commit a penalty or obviously terrible play. Over the course of a game or season, play by play, Allen's play hurts the team though because many times when he's not crushing someone, he's not touching anyone. Not "obviously" terrible, but terrible nonetheless.

ABQCOWBOY

01-31-2006, 03:09 PM

As a point of clarification, I'm very critical of Allen's play the last few seasons, but I do think he's one of the five best OL players of all time.

And yes, he has made a lot of crushing blocks the last couple of seasons. That's why a majority of fans don't see his liabilities. Offensive lineman only get noticed when they crush someone or commit a penalty or obviously terrible play. Over the course of a game or season, play by play, Allen's play hurts the team though because many times when he's not crushing someone, he's not touching anyone. Not "obviously" terrible, but terrible nonetheless.

So, you been reading my mind long or what?