Free Agents - Fix 2002 draft

[aikemirv]

Everyone complains about our poor draft in 2002 and the irony of it all is that although it really hurt us for those 4 years we have an opportunity to correct a lot of those mistakes.

Suppose we had drafted Bently instead of Gurode - we would have to resign him this year anyway - to a lucrative deal no less - so why not go out and sign him now?

Suppose we had drafted Ayodele instead of Derek Ross - we would want to keep him - right - so why not fix that error too?

How about the fact that we could have had Chris Hope instead of Antonio Bryant. We would want to resign him too.

Guess what else - we could have drafted Andra Davis instead of Jamar MArtin - too late to get him but we have an opportunity to fix most of the 2002 draft with high quality players.

If we had drafted well we would be paying top dollar to resign them, so what is the difference?

Go get em' Jerry!!!

[AbeBeta]

I propose we all get off Ayodele's jock until someone can show that he fits in our D. He's not an effective pass rusher, he's poor in coverage, he's smallish for a 3-4 OLB, and he lost playing time last year in Jack.

Just why are people so hot on him again? Because he comes from Dallas? Because some pundit said that he'd be a good fit?

[neosapien23]

I propose we all get off Ayodele's jock until someone can show that he fits in our D. He's not an effective pass rusher, he's poor in coverage, he's smallish for a 3-4 OLB, and he lost playing time last year in Jack.

Just why are people so hot on him again? Because he comes from Dallas? Because some pundit said that he'd be a good fit?

Have you ever watched this dude even play or are you just spewing statistics. He is very good against the run and he can rush the passer. He is extremely out of place in the 4-3. He will excel in the 3-4. Besides who would you rather have at the OLB position. We have alot of holes and we need to sign mid grade free agents. Adoyele is nothing special, but he doesn't suck either.

[aikemirv]

I am not going to pretend that I get to watch every player in the NFL or every game and know exactly how a player fits into our scheme. Thats what our coaches and scouts are for, and I am not going to pretend that I know more than they do like some on this board either, but this comment from ESPN Scouts makes me want our team to take a long hard look at him - if they feel he fits , pay him and get him in here.

Ayodele has played in Jacksonville's 4-3 but, unlike Leber, would excel in a 3-4 scheme. He is an explosive player who can rush the passer. He makes occasional mental mistakes, but he is very athletic and can get to the ball quickly.

[Alexander]

Just why are people so hot on him again? Because he comes from Dallas? Because some pundit said that he'd be a good fit?

I suspect you will not get a straight answer.

[Alexander]

Ayodele has played in Jacksonville's 4-3 but, unlike Leber, would excel in a 3-4 scheme. He is an explosive player who can rush the passer. He makes occasional mental mistakes, but he is very athletic and can get to the ball quickly.

Leber is also an accomplished pass rusher in his own right. I don't see the big difference between these two players. Wait, Leber isn't from Dallas, is he?

[Clove]

I'd rather go with Carpenter or someone else in the draft.

[Alexander]

I'd rather go with Carpenter or someone else in the draft.

As would I, but there is something to be said for a veteran presence outside at that spot. Ware is still learning and adding another rookie might not be the thing we would want to do.

[aikemirv]

Leber is also an accomplished pass rusher in his own right. I don't see the big difference between these two players. Wait, Leber isn't from Dallas, is he?

So is the ESPN scout guy from Dallas and why would he care which one he touts - does he have an agenda to tout Ayoldele over Leber. I doubt it. I think Leber played very well last year if memory serves me - against us and I saw him play another game early last year and they stated that it was going to me hard for Merriman to get him off the field. He would be an upgrade over what we have too so I have no preference really.

[neosapien23]

I'd rather go with Carpenter or someone else in the draft.

That would be fine if OLB was our biggest weakness. Guard and Tackle are much bigger concerns for this team heading into the offseason.

[neosapien23]

Leber is also an accomplished pass rusher in his own right. I don't see the big difference between these two players. Wait, Leber isn't from Dallas, is he?

How old is Leber and how much does he weigh? Adoele is only 26.

[Clove]

That would be fine if OLB was our biggest weakness. Guard and Tackle are much bigger concerns for this team heading into the offseason.Their's a big old boy in Ravens country I would jump on in a NY second for Nose Tackle.

[Alexander]

How old is Leber and how much does he weigh? Adoele is only 26.

He's a year older and weighs in the 245 pound range.

[Clove]

I'd rather have a veteren ILB and get a rookie OLB.

[Alexander]

I'd rather have a veteren ILB and get a rookie OLB.

Which veteran ILB?

Please do not say Ray Lewis.

[Clove]

Which veteran ILB?

Please do not say Ray Lewis.My point exactly, that's why I stick with Burnett, and get Carpenter or one of the Freak tweeners, grab that big monster in Baltimore to play NT, and get on with it. :)

[Rush 2112]

I propose we all get off Ayodele's jock until someone can show that he fits in our D. He's not an effective pass rusher, he's poor in coverage, he's smallish for a 3-4 OLB, and he lost playing time last year in Jack.

Just why are people so hot on him again? Because he comes from Dallas? Because some pundit said that he'd be a good fit?

Because he's 6-2/245-250 and a college DE from Purdue who is 2nd on all time sack list there behind Roosevelt Colvin with 29.

[Alexander]

Because he's 6-2/245-250 and a college DE from Purdue who is 2nd on all time sack list there behind Roosevelt Colvin with 29.

Leber did very well at Kansas State and is in the same range. Why not him?

Ayodele's legend grows.

[AbeBeta]

Have you ever watched this dude even play or are you just spewing statistics. He is very good against the run and he can rush the passer. He is extremely out of place in the 4-3. He will excel in the 3-4. Besides who would you rather have at the OLB position. We have alot of holes and we need to sign mid grade free agents. Adoyele is nothing special, but he doesn't suck either.

Neo you keep avoiding my point here - 4 years, 8.5 sacks. that doesn't scream "can rush the passer"

do we need another thread where I keep citing those #s and you keep saying something else?

I'm not seeing a guy who is a pass rusher here. also, you never answered my point about him losing his starting position -- what was up with that?

I've got no problem with signing him -- I just don't think he fits at all.

[AbeBeta]

Because he's 6-2/245-250 and a college DE from Purdue who is 2nd on all time sack list there behind Roosevelt Colvin with 29.

Colvin produced sacks in the NFL. In his first four years he got 26 of them. That's more than 3 times what Oyedele has.

That says to me that Oye is not a quality NFL pass rusher.

[Rush 2112]

I think they both fit but not starting outside.

Leber has proven he's not starting caliber at SOLB. Could be a good depth guy inside or out.

I'm targeting Ayodele inside.

He was 257 coming out of school and had 29 sacks.

8.5 sacks playing outside in 4-3 with one less season starting than Leber who was in a scheme far more conducive to LB's piling up sack #'s.

Leber maxed out at 244 with mediocre #'s as a starting SOLB.

Ayodele trimmed down to from 257 to 245 to fit in 4-3.

I'll take either but Leber is not a starter and Ayodele has major upside in 3-4 scheme.

[Alexander]

I'm targeting Ayodele inside.

Well, this is a stretch. Everything I have ever read about him has him as strictly an outside linebacker.

[AbeBeta]

I'm targeting Ayodele inside.


Yeah. BP loves moving guys around. It is one thing to give a scrub like Ogubu a chance to move -- it is a whole 'nuther thing to pay a free agent and then ask him to play a completely new position.

[Rush 2112]

Colvin produced sacks in the NFL. In his first four years he got 26 of them. That's more than 3 times what Oyedele has.

That says to me that Oye is not a quality NFL pass rusher.

A) We're comparing Ayodele and Leber

B) They weren't in the same system, asked to do the same things or surrounded by the same talent..

Fact: 3 sacks a year by your SOLB in a 3-4 isn't getting it done.

How does your little Colvin formula work with Leber's #'s?

[Rush 2112]

Yeah. BP loves moving guys around. It is one thing to give a scrub like Ogubu a chance to move -- it is a whole 'nuther thing to pay a free agent and then ask him to play a completely new position.

Bruschi, McGinest, Ware, Ferguson, Spears, Petiti, Rogers, Abraham, Banks, Crayton.

What position changes?

[AbeBeta]

A) We're comparing Ayodele and Leber

B) They weren't in the same system, asked to do the same things or surrounded by the same talent..

Fact: 3 sacks a year by your SOLB in a 3-4 isn't getting it done.

How does your little Colvin formula work with Leber's #'s?

you brought up Colvin.

I don't like Leber.

[AbeBeta]

Bruschi, McGinest, Ware, Ferguson, Spears, Petiti, Rogers, Abraham, Banks, Crayton.

What position changes?

LT to RT? DE to 3-4 OLB. At least those make sense.

[Chocolate Lab]

Leber did very well at Kansas State and is in the same range. Why not him?I put a post up about Leber on a Chargers board, and the overwhelming consensus was that Leber was merely a decent player who you wouldn't want starting on a championship team. Most posters thought he wouldn't be any better than Fujita once Fujita got more experience.

[AbeBeta]

I put a post up about Leber on a Chargers board, and the overwhelming consensus was that Leber was merely a decent player who you wouldn't want starting on a championship team. Most posters thought he wouldn't be any better than Fujita once Fujita got more experience.

Hold on now. this isn't a thread for the opinions of people who actually know something about the players.

[Rush 2112]

LT to RT? DE to 3-4 OLB. At least those make sense.


Yes, your correct. Learning to do things backwards or play in a completely different scheme with totally different techniques makes sense and is much easier. Only took Vrabel 6 years to pick up playing OLB vs 4-3 DE. Jason Babin can handle it with his eyes closed. Petiti and Alex Barron reminded everyone of Jackie Slater and Eric Williams.:laugh2: :laugh1: :lmao2: :lmao:

How does moving an OLB inside not make sense?

See Vrabel this year.

See Giants in 80's under BP.

See Chad Brown.

See BP's talk about James and Fowler possibly moving when we had no depth at OLB.

Bradie James played 2 years at OLB in the 4-3 and then moved to what this year?

Where did he play in college?

You may not have noticed but KC did this Ayodele move in reverse with Kendrell Bell.

James Farrior?

Jamie Sharper?

Randall Godfrey?

Donnie Edwards?

This OLB to ILB we're talking about not OG to OT (Tucker), FS to CB (Hunter) or DE to OLB like Ware or all these hybrids that struggle.

It kinda looks like it's been done before.......

Alot.

[Alexander]

I put a post up about Leber on a Chargers board, and the overwhelming consensus was that Leber was merely a decent player who you wouldn't want starting on a championship team. Most posters thought he wouldn't be any better than Fujita once Fujita got more experience.

Can you go to a Jaguars board, Choc?

I bet you see the same type of thing. From my understanding the Jaguars were trying to upgrade the spot (in fact that's one of the reasons they traded for Winborn). They would like to hang onto him, but everything I have read indicates they wouldn't be devastated if they lost him.

[AbeBeta]

How does moving an OLB inside not make sense?


It doesn't make sense for a guy who was a college DE who never played ILB.

But it really doesn't make sense to pay free agent money to a guy and then ask him to play a position he NEVER played.

Again, it is fine to do that with scrubs but how can a team pay a free agent salary to a guy just to see if MAYBE he can play ILB?

[Rush 2112]

It doesn't make sense for a guy who was a college DE who never played ILB.

But it really doesn't make sense to pay free agent money to a guy and then ask him to play a position he NEVER played.

Again, it is fine to do that with scrubs but how can a team pay a free agent salary to a guy just to see if MAYBE he can play ILB?

Happens every single year. Ware never played OLB until we drafted him #11. Didn't he start out as a WR at Troy? McGinest was a top ten pick and was a college DE. Houston gave up like 4 picks to draft Babin as a OLB after playing college DE.

Porter?
Vrabel?
Colvin?

It's called projecting!!!!

Bruschi played LB first then moved to DE at ASU.

Guess what Ayodele did?

It's about size, technique, projecting and athleticism, not what they use to play.

[AbeBeta]

Happens every single year.

And how often do teams pay $ for an FA and then move him to a position he never played?

you can preach this all you want but it is not happening. i doubt either the team that signs him or Ayedole himself are comfortable with the move.

now son, get off the computer, go to the record store and find yourself something better than Rush to listen to. :laugh2:

[Alexander]

Happens every single year. Ware never played OLB until we drafted him #11. Didn't he start out as a WR at Troy? McGinest was a top ten pick and was a college DE. Houston gave up like 4 picks to draft Babin as a OLB after playing college DE.

Porter?
Vrabel?
Colvin?

It's called projecting!!!!

Bruschi played LB first then moved to DE at ASU.

Guess what Ayodele did?

It's about size, technique, projecting and athleticism, not what they use to play.

DE to OLB or vice versa is totally different from just automatically assuming he shifts to ILB after playing outside on the edges his entire career.

And you are talking about special players in the Centaur and Porter.

Are you implying SuperAyodele is in that echelon?

[Rush 2112]

And how often do teams pay $ for an FA and then move him to a position he never played?

you can preach this all you want but it is not happening. i doubt either the team that signs him or Ayedole himself are comfortable with the move.

now son, get off the computer, go to the record store and find yourself something better than Rush to listen to. :laugh2:

4-3 DT to 3-4 NT all the time.

Farrior, Donnie Edwards, Randall Godfrey, Steve Foley, Chad Brown, Kendrell Bell, Troy Vincent, Jamie Sharper.

Teams use first day picks to do it all the time. Last couple of drafts Boulware to SS, Matt Jones to WR, Babin/Ware to OLB, Castillo/Spears to 3-4 DE.

No money invested in those guys.

Don't hate on Rush just because you can't flip the pages in the Thesaurus/Dictionary fast enough.

Show me a better drummer, lyricist, bassist, trio who puts out that sound and has been together north of 30 years.

Poison doesn't count.

[AbeBeta]

4-3 DT to 3-4 NT all the time.

Farrior, Donnie Edwards, Randall Godfrey, Steve Foley, Chad Brown, Kendrell Bell, Troy Vincent, Jamie Sharper.

Teams use first day picks to do it all the time. Last couple of drafts Boulware to SS, Matt Jones to WR, Babin/Ware to OLB, Castillo/Spears to 3-4 DE.

No money invested in those guys.

Don't hate on Rush just because you can't flip the pages in the Thesaurus/Dictionary fast enough.

Show me a better drummer, lyricist, bassist, trio who puts out that sound and has been together north of 30 years.

Poison doesn't count.

so let me ask this - does Ayodele want to move inside? seems to me if I sign an FA deal, I want to continue to play in a position where I will have success. and frankly, if I sign an FA I don't want to gamble on him learning a new position.

and only a 12 year old would need a dictionary to understand rush lyrics.

[Chocolate Lab]

Can you go to a Jaguars board, Choc?

I bet you see the same type of thing. From my understanding the Jaguars were trying to upgrade the spot (in fact that's one of the reasons they traded for Winborn). They would like to hang onto him, but everything I have read indicates they wouldn't be devastated if they lost him.
LOL... I don't know anything about Ayodele and wouldn't even know what to ask. :) I liked Leber since he came out of college and suspected he might be a good fit for us, which is why I went and asked about him.

One big difference here is that Leber has already played the exact spot in the 34 he'd play here, so there's something to go on. As the other guys are talking about, it's a tougher projection when you're changing schemes like Ayodele would be doing. Could we still project it and go after him? Sure, we did that with Fujita. But it might be tougher for your average Jags layman to know how he'd play as a 34 OLB.

But back to the discussion of how good these guys are... Unless either is a substantial upgrade over Fujita, I don't see the point in doing it. Fujita wasn't good, but he wasn't horrible either, and it was his first time in the scheme with no training camp. It's not unreasonable to expect him to be a little better next year. So I don't see the point in targeting a free agent who might not be much better than what we have. In that case, I'd rather we took a guy in the draft who at least has a big upside.

[Alexander]

LOL... I don't know anything about Ayodele and wouldn't even know what to ask. :)

Then get with the program and hop on board the Ayodele Express destination: SUPER BOWL.:)

One big difference here is that Leber has already played the exact spot in the 34 he'd play here, so there's something to go on. As the other guys are talking about, it's a tougher projection when you're changing schemes like Ayodele would be doing. Could we still project it and go after him? Sure, we did that with Fujita. But it might be tougher for your average Jags layman to know how he'd play as a 34 OLB.

Correct.

But back to the discussion of how good these guys are... Unless either is a substantial upgrade over Fujita, I don't see the point in doing it. Fujita wasn't good, but he wasn't horrible either, and it was his first time in the scheme with no training camp. It's not unreasonable to expect him to be a little better next year. So I don't see the point in targeting a free agent who might not be much better than what we have. In that case, I'd rather we took a guy in the draft who at least has a big upside.

But according to some, Fujita is just a terrible awful player. Did you not get the memo?

[Chocolate Lab]

But according to some, Fujita is just a terrible awful player. Did you not get the memo?Nobody ever tells me anything... :banghead:

We should start a discussion of what we'd be actually willing to pay for the players available. I get your point that Adoyele is no sure thing... But he might turn into something, too. What should we be willing to pay for that?

I'll say this, at least he looks like he'd have some upside. I've been convinced that Leber doesn't have much, if any, over Fujita. I wonder what others think.

[Eddie]

Don't hate on Rush just because you can't flip the pages in the Thesaurus/Dictionary fast enough.

Show me a better drummer, lyricist, bassist, trio who puts out that sound and has been together north of 30 years.

Poison doesn't count.

Zebra. :laugh2:

[neosapien23]

Then get with the program and hop on board the Ayodele Express destination: SUPER BOWL.:)

But according to some, Fujita is just a terrible awful player. Did you not get the memo?

I take it your not a part of the Akin Adoyele fan club.

Fujita is a good player. He is a lot better than our current options.

[PacoReloaded]

Suppose we had drafted Bently instead of Gurode - we would have to resign him this year anyway - to a lucrative deal no less - so why not go out and sign him now?Why not? Because he's going to get franchised. :banghead: