Henson -- So much for the sidearm delivery

[Commodore1]

http://www.sportsline.com/u/photos/pl_272315.jpg

[RCowboyFan]

Repost, this has been already discussed to death :D

[JBRockBottom31]

LMAO yes it has

[AbeBeta]

You know how leftovers sometimes are better after a few days go by.

That's like this thread.

[Aikmaniac]

I can tell that this will be a perfect pass. Check the altitudeness of the ball and how it is adjacently perpendicular to the ground. I'm sure this was a TD. O-Line appears to be blocking very well...no defenders in sight.

[Hostile]

http://www.sportsline.com/u/photos/pl_272315.jpg:welcome: to the forum. Hope you'll post more and join some discussions.

[Ashwynn]

Plus a video would be more conclusive. You could still drop to a sidearm from taht position before release. I wanna see it live or on film before I consider changing my mind on Henson. I will watch this NFLE season, see if I like him again. He needs to put it together and get it rolling real soon.

[WV Cowboy]

Plus a video would be more conclusive. You could still drop to a sidearm from taht position before release. I wanna see it live or on film before I consider changing my mind on Henson. I will watch this NFLE season, see if I like him again. He needs to put it together and get it rolling real soon.
I'm not so sure that NFLE is the place to "get it rolling", ... weak O-line play, 2nd rate WR's.

Of course the secondaries can't be all that good either.

[Commodore1]

Post #2 -- get a life and stop checking cowboyszone.com every ten seconds

[Glenn Carano]

Post #2 -- get a life and stop checking cowboyszone.com every ten seconds

Sorry dude, that's what us regulars do.

[JPM]

Post #2 -- get a life and stop checking cowboyszone.com every ten seconds

It's the offseason, it's either this or work. Guess what wins.

[WoodysGirl]

Post #2 -- get a life and stop checking cowboyszone.com every ten secondsLife? What's this life you speak of? :)

[Bledsoe4MVP]

http://www.sportsline.com/u/photos/pl_272315.jpg

:laugh1: :laugh2:

[bbgun]

If Vince Young isn't being asked to change, why should Henson?

[acheman]

Well the team Young go's to might ask him to change his throwing motion, that remains to be seen. But according to Mel Kiper Jr. (referring to Vince Young on Mike & Mike) "if you are taking Young, why would you try to change his motion?" In other words if you liked enough of what you saw in his previous work to take a gamble on him, why change it, ala what this staff did to Henson. My thoughts exactly Mel.

[Qwickdraw]

Plus a video would be more conclusive. You could still drop to a sidearm from taht position before release. I wanna see it live or on film before I consider changing my mind on Henson. I will watch this NFLE season, see if I like him again. He needs to put it together and get it rolling real soon.
My thoughts exactly. The picture shows nothing and really... who cares?

Until I see him play I don't care if he's throwing underhanded.

[hogwild]

I said the moment Henson signed, he was the most talented
QB we have. Nothing has changed my mind yet

YES i'm serious

[RCowboyFan]

Post #2 -- get a life and stop checking cowboyszone.com every ten seconds

Gee thanks, I needed someone behind a keyboard, posting on the Cowboyszone.com to tell me about getting a life:rolleyes:

[Commodore1]

By the way, I watched Jay Cutler in almost every game he played at Vandy. In my view, he has the best arm of any college QB since Elway. In fact, the comparisions of Cutler to Elway/Aikman are right on.

[Hostile]

By the way, I watched Jay Cutler in almost every game he played at Vandy. In my view, he has the best arm of any college QB since Elway. In fact, the comparisions of Cutler to Elway/Aikman are right on.I've seen comparisons to Favre. I agree, he's got a real live one. I think he'll be the best of this crop, but may not be taken 1st at QB. Good call.

[Bledsoe4MVP]

By the way, I watched Jay Cutler in almost every game he played at Vandy. In my view, he has the best arm of any college QB since Elway. In fact, the comparisions of Cutler to Elway/Aikman are right on.

Cutler is going to be a huge bust. The so called 'experts' said the same thing in Buffalo about JP Loseman being the next Favre, Elway, etc.....sure worked out well for them didn't it.:laugh1: :laugh2:

[Nors]

Knocks on Cutler

Very inconsistent
Prone to poor decision making
Deep passing needs refinement - accuracy


Anyone drafting that kid in first is taking a major, major gamble. He is vastly overrated at this point with top 10 talk. Good for Dallas as a football player will drop a peg to us.

[Cbz40]

Cutler is going to be a huge bust. The so called 'experts' said the same thing in Buffalo about JP Loseman being the next Favre, Elway, etc.....sure worked out well for them didn't it.:laugh1: :laugh2:


Then which experts do we believe?.....you or the ones saying Cutler will do well????:confused: :)

[Ashwynn]

Knocks on Cutler

Very inconsistent
Prone to poor decision making
Deep passing needs refinement - accuracy


Anyone drafting that kid in first is taking a major, major gamble. He is vastly overrated at this point with top 10 talk. Good for Dallas as a football player will drop a peg to us.
Look for the skins to trade up and draft him then, They can sit him next to Campbell.

[billknows]

:welcome: to the forum. Hope you'll post more and join some discussions.

Wecome :cool:

[Bledsoe4MVP]

Then which experts do we believe?.....you or the ones saying Cutler will do well????:confused: :)

Well Cbz, if you look at the recent history of the NFL very few 1st round QB's go on to be superstars or 'franchise qbs'. In fact guys like Tom Brady, Jake Delhomme, Kurt Warner, Trent Green, etc have shown that being a drafted early means nothing. These were all late round gems.

Tim Couch, Akili Smith, JP Lose-man, Kyle Boller, David Carr, Cade Mcnown, Jim Drunkenmiller, Joey Harrington, Ryan Leaf, etc all headline a long list of bums that were overhyped coming out of college over the last 5+ years. And based on what I've seen from Eli Manning and Alex Smith so far, you can lump them in the same group too. Some of these clowns are already pumping gas and out of the league that's how big a bust they were. Heck, I remember when people a majority of the experts were saying that Ryan Leif was a FAR BETTER athlete that Manning. The colts even admitted at first they were leaning towards Leif instead of Manning that fateful day.

It's always a gamble taking a QB that high, in fact Big Ben and Carson Palmer(whos future is up in the air after a major injury) are the only ones that have done anything of note in recent years. Mike Vick is known for being a playmaker on the ground, but he is a bust as a passer too.

The bottom line is the days of drafting a true 'stud':cool: first overall or in the first round are long over. And that's what makes guys like Aikman, Elway, Bledsoe, etc so great. They were clearly in a class of their own coming out of college and more than lived up to the hype.

[Nors]

I said the moment Henson signed, he was the most talented
QB we have. Nothing has changed my mind yet

YES i'm serious

OK:
He's been beat out by

42 year old VT
Drew Bledsoe
Tony Romo - Undrafted FA


Now going in year 3 to NFLe - at some point he needs to start doing it.

[ConcordCowboy]

OK:
He's been beat out by

42 year old VT
Drew Bledsoe
Tony Romo - Undrafted FA


Now going in year 3 to NFLe - at some point he needs to start doing it.

And Romo's been beat out by

42 Year old VT
Drew Bledsoe
Drew Henson...In 2004

Now going on year 4 and never having thrown a NFL pass...He needs to start doing it.

[Idgit]

OK:
He's been beat out by

42 year old VT
Drew Bledsoe
Tony Romo - Undrafted FA


Now going in year 3 to NFLe - at some point he needs to start doing it.

Don't equate talent and productivity, Nors. The fact that Testeverde started in front of a first year player shouldn't surprise anyone. Even with his talent, Henson was never expected to be a 1-year project. It was an unexpected plus that he beat out Romo in his first year.

Last year was a well-documented regression, and we were very lucky to have Bledsoe available as a FA to buy us time to develop a player. Signing Bledsoe was an early indication that neither Romo nor Henson was expected to have improved enough to start in 2005.

This is the year I'd expect him to start 'doing it.' It's a plus that he's volunteered for NFLe, not a minus. Look at it this way, in no time, you'll actually have some data to back up your opinions!

[Bledsoe4MVP]

Don't equate talent and productivity, Nors. The fact that Testeverde started in front of a first year player shouldn't surprise anyone. Even with his talent, Henson was never expected to be a 1-year project. It was an unexpected plus that he beat out Romo in his first year.

Last year was a well-documented regression, and we were very lucky to have Bledsoe available as a FA to buy us time to develop a player. Signing Bledsoe was an early indication that neither Romo nor Henson was expected to have improved enough to start in 2005.

This is the year I'd expect him to start 'doing it.' It's a plus that he's volunteered for NFLe, not a minus. Look at it this way, in no time, you'll actually have some data to back up your opinions!

Signing Bledsoe was also an early indication that this team wanted to contend for a superbowl title. That simply was going to happen with the dinosaur, Romo or Henson.:cool:

[CrazyCowboy]

http://www.sportsline.com/u/photos/pl_272315.jpg

Welcome to the CowboyZone.....the best fans in the world visit this site!

[Cbz40]

Well Cbz, if you look at the recent history of the NFL very few 1st round QB's go on to be superstars or 'franchise qbs'. In fact guys like Tom Brady, Jake Delhomme, Kurt Warner, Trent Green, etc have shown that being a drafted early means nothing. These were all late round gems.

Tim Couch, Akili Smith, JP Lose-man, Kyle Boller, David Carr, Cade Mcnown, Jim Drunkenmiller, Joey Harrington, Ryan Leaf, etc all headline a long list of bums that were overhyped coming out of college over the last 5+ years. And based on what I've seen from Eli Manning and Alex Smith so far, you can lump them in the same group too. Some of these clowns are already pumping gas and out of the league that's how big a bust they were. Heck, I remember when people a majority of the experts were saying that Ryan Leif was a FAR BETTER athlete that Manning. The colts even admitted at first they were leaning towards Leif instead of Manning that fateful day.

It's always a gamble taking a QB that high, in fact Big Ben and Carson Palmer(whos future is up in the air after a major injury) are the only ones that have done anything of note in recent years. Mike Vick is known for being a playmaker on the ground, but he is a bust as a passer too.

The bottom line is the days of drafting a true 'stud':cool: first overall or in the first round are long over. And that's what makes guys like Aikman, Elway, Bledsoe, etc so great. They were clearly in a class of their own coming out of college and more than lived up to the hype.

I commend you....you are stating a case and you are arguing.;)


When people state an "absolute" I become very suspect. Whether Cutler will be a bust or not is still yet to be determined.

It has been speculated the kid will be drafted as high as the 1st or as low as the ??????. Let's at least wait and see what round he is selected and if drafted, how well he plays before we pronounce him a "Bust".

[speedkilz88]

I have some reservations about Cutler due to his poor decision making, but I would take him over any of the 1st round QBs from the 2005 draft.

[Bledsoe4MVP]

I commend you....you are stating a case and you are arguing.;)


When people state an "absolute" I become very suspect. Whether Cutler will be a bust or not is still yet to be determined.

It has been speculated the kid will be drafted as high as the 1st or as low as the ??????. Let's at least wait and see what round he is selected and if drafted, how well he plays before we pronounce him a "Bust".

Well thanks grand poombah!:cool:

I guess my 'beef' with Cutler is the fact all the hype he's getting, especially since he didn't even play for a 'big name' NCAA program. Vanderbilt? Give me a break. Who cares about the numbers he put up there, which weren't nothing special to begin with:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=115374

In fact as I look at those numbers, I'm pretty confounded by all this. What is so special about them, because his best year came as a senior? They were a 5-6 football team??!??! Losing 6 straight at one point, including some really bad losses. But hey I guess these 'experts' know something I don't...

But looking at the big 3 this year, I'm willing to bet that if there is going to be a big time bust out of any of them it's Matt Leinart. The reason I say this is because like another great NCAA QB who put up huge numbers and didn't lose too many games, he is the product of a SYSTEM and had tons of talent around him year after year. This other guy's name is Ken Dorsey from Miami. He hasn't fared to well either during his NFL career thus far.

Vince Young is my pick to be the best of the crop, simply because he can get it done with his feet like Vick. Also his passing game seems to be better than Vicks was coming out of college.

[Hostile]

Well Cbz, if you look at the recent history of the NFL very few 1st round QB's go on to be superstars or 'franchise qbs'. In fact guys like Tom Brady, Jake Delhomme, Kurt Warner, Trent Green, etc have shown that being a drafted early means nothing. These were all late round gems.

Tim Couch, Akili Smith, JP Lose-man, Kyle Boller, David Carr, Cade Mcnown, Jim Drunkenmiller, Joey Harrington, Ryan Leaf, etc all headline a long list of bums that were overhyped coming out of college over the last 5+ years. And based on what I've seen from Eli Manning and Alex Smith so far, you can lump them in the same group too. Some of these clowns are already pumping gas and out of the league that's how big a bust they were. Heck, I remember when people a majority of the experts were saying that Ryan Leif was a FAR BETTER athlete that Manning. The colts even admitted at first they were leaning towards Leif instead of Manning that fateful day.

It's always a gamble taking a QB that high, in fact Big Ben and Carson Palmer(whos future is up in the air after a major injury) are the only ones that have done anything of note in recent years. Mike Vick is known for being a playmaker on the ground, but he is a bust as a passer too.

The bottom line is the days of drafting a true 'stud':cool: first overall or in the first round are long over. And that's what makes guys like Aikman, Elway, Bledsoe, etc so great. They were clearly in a class of their own coming out of college and more than lived up to the hype.That statement has absolutely no basis in fact. It pre-suposes that no QBs taken in roudn 1 will have what it takes to be great in this league. There is no accompanying evidence. In fact, all evidence to the contrary. A quick look at some of the top QBs in the NFL shows how flawed.

Cowboys, Bledsoe, round 1, #1 overall
Giants, E. Manning, round 1, #1 overall, team in the playoffs in 2005.
Eagles, McNabb, round 1, #2 overall, string of 4 straight NFC Championship games or better broken. No guarantee exists that he can't make it back.
Redskins, Campbell & Ramsey, both drafted in round 1.

Bears, Grossman, round 1, missed part of 2005, still considered the QB in Chi-town, team in playoffs 2005.
Lions, Harrington, round 1, #3 overall. Too soon to call his career over.
Packers, Rodgers, round 1, Heir apparent to legend Brett Favre.
Vikings, Culpepper, round 1, being written off way too soon by some here.

Falcons, Vick, round 1, #1 overall, A threat despite doubts about him.
Panthers, Delhomme, A rare find.
Saints, Soon will add Leinart, Young or Cutler to list of teams banking on 1st round QBs.
Buccaneers, Sims, Too soon to say on his career.

Cardinals, Warner, near the end of the road, talk exists the Cardinals could go QB if Cutler is there.
Rams, Bulger, We're about to find out if Martz made him or he was a find.
49ers, Alex Smith, round 1, #1 overall. Too soon to say on his career.
Seahawks, Hasselbeck, a rare find.


Bills, Losman, round 1. Too soon to call his career over.
Dolphins, Frerotte, rumors of interest in Culpepper or drafting a QB abound.
Patriots, Brady, a rare find.
Jets, Pennington, round 1. Jets looking at QB to replace injured hope.

Ravens, Boller, round 1. Too soon to call his career over.
Bengals, Palmer, round 1, #1 overall. A rising star that derails your theory by himself.
Browns, Frye, too soon to judge his career.
Steelers, Roethlesberger, round 1, Just won a Super Bowl I believe.

Texans, Carr, round 1, #1 overall. Too soon to call his career over.
Colts, P. Manning, round 1, #1 overall. Only the best technical QB in the NFL.
Jagaurs, Leftwich, round 1. Too soon to call his career over.
Titans, McNair, round 1. Probably drafting his replacement in round 1 this year.

Broncos, Plummer, round 1. Had his best year ever in 2005.
Chiefs, Green, a rare find.
Raiders, Collins, round 1. Will Raiders draft Cutler if the Jets don't?
Chargers, Brees. Rivers a round 1 QB waiting to take over or be dealt.

So you see, 32 teams and 22 of them have QBs on their roster right now who were 1st round picks and their hope for the future. 3 more QBs are expected to go in round 1 this year, maybe even top 5 for all 3.

On top of this the teams at the very top minus 1 or 2 are generally led by 1st round QBs. The Super Bowls have been dominated by 1st round QBs.

Nope, that statement not only won't fly, it can't even crawl.

[Bledsoe4MVP]

That statement has absolutely no basis in fact. It pre-suposes that no QBs taken in roudn 1 will have what it takes to be great in this league. There is no accompanying evidence. In fact, all evidence to the contrary. A quick look at some of the top QBs in the NFL shows how flawed.

Cowboys, Bledsoe, round 1, #1 overall
Giants, E. Manning, round 1, #1 overall, team in the playoffs in 2005.
Eagles, McNabb, round 1, #2 overall, string of 4 straight NFC Championship games or better broken. No guarantee exists that he can't make it back.
Redskins, Campbell & Ramsey, both drafted in round 1.

Bears, Grossman, round 1, missed part of 2005, still considered the QB in Chi-town, team in playoffs 2005.
Lions, Harrington, round 1, #3 overall. Too soon to call his career over.
Packers, Rodgers, round 1, Heir apparent to legend Brett Favre.
Vikings, Culpepper, round 1, being written off way too soon by some here.

Falcons, Vick, round 1, #1 overall, A threat despite doubts about him.
Panthers, Delhomme, A rare find.
Saints, Soon will add Leinart, Young or Cutler to list of teams banking on 1st round QBs.
Buccaneers, Sims, Too soon to say on his career.

Cardinals, Warner, near the end of the road, talk exists the Cardinals could go QB if Cutler is there.
Rams, Bulger, We're about to find out if Martz made him or he was a find.
49ers, Alex Smith, round 1, #1 overall. Too soon to say on his career.
Seahawks, Hasselbeck, a rare find.


Bills, Losman, round 1. Too soon to call his career over.
Dolphins, Frerotte, rumors of interest in Culpepper or drafting a QB abound.
Patriots, Brady, a rare find.
Jets, Pennington, round 1. Jets looking at QB to replace injured hope.

Ravens, Boller, round 1. Too soon to call his career over.
Bengals, Palmer, round 1, #1 overall. A rising star that derails your theory by himself.
Browns, Frye, too soon to judge his career.
Steelers, Roethlesberger, round 1, Just won a Super Bowl I believe.

Texans, Carr, round 1, #1 overall. Too soon to call his career over.
Colts, P. Manning, round 1, #1 overall. Only the best technical QB in the NFL.
Jagaurs, Leftwich, round 1. Too soon to call his career over.
Titans, McNair, round 1. Probably drafting his replacement in round 1 this year.

Broncos, Plummer, round 1. Had his best year ever in 2005.
Chiefs, Green, a rare find.
Raiders, Collins, round 1. Will Raiders draft Cutler if the Jets don't?
Chargers, Brees. Rivers a round 1 QB waiting to take over or be dealt.

So you see, 32 teams and 22 of them have QBs on their roster right now who were 1st round picks and their hope for the future. 3 more QBs are expected to go in round 1 this year, maybe even top 5 for all 3.

On top of this the teams at the very top minus 1 or 2 are generally led by 1st round QBs. The Super Bowls have been dominated by 1st round QBs.

Nope, that statement not only won't fly, it can't even crawl.

First of all, I didn't say it was a FACT, merely my opinion...and yes I know my opinions don't mean squat here, especially to you. Also this wasn't a discussion to see how many teams had a first rounder as their starting QB or on their roster. The point was to illustrate the success of a 1st rounder compared to others not drafted until later.

So you say 1st round QB's have dominated the superbowl, of course they have in the PAST. But how many first round QB's have won in the big game in recent years(minus Big Ben this year, who didn't win anything, his TEAM did).

2005: Winner, Pit - Big Ben - 1st round(not the reason team won); runner up: Hasslebach - 5th round
2004: Winner, NE - Brady - 6th round; runner up: McNabb - 1st round
2003: Winner, NE - Brady -6th round; runner up: Delhomme - not drafted
2002: Winner, TB - Johnson - 9th round (fits into the 'not drafted' category based on the 7 round format today); runner up: Gannon - 4th round
2001: Winner, NE - Brady - 6th round; runner up: Warner - not drafted
2000: Winner, Bal - Dilfer - 1st Round(not the reason team won); runner up: Kerry Collins - 1st Round
1999: Winner, STL - Warner - not drafted; runner up: Steve Mcnair - 1st round

This would entail 'recent years' which was the point of my arguement, so 5 out of 14 starters from the superbowl teams were starters and only 2 of them won...but funny the 2 winners weren't even the reason their teams won now were they?

Now lets look at your other stat pack, I've bolded my added OPINIONS/Comments:

Cowboys, Bledsoe, round 1, #1 overall
Giants, E. Manning, round 1, #1 overall, team in the playoffs in 2005.
Eli Manning is not the reason they made the playoffs, Tiki Barber and the defense are.
Eagles, McNabb, round 1, #2 overall, string of 4 straight NFC Championship games or better broken. No guarantee exists that he can't make it back.
I forget about him in my initial arguement, yes he's had a lot of success. Still a choker though.
Redskins, Campbell & Ramsey, both drafted in round 1.
A 36 year old 5th round pick was thier starter last year.

Bears, Grossman, round 1, missed part of 2005, still considered the QB in Chi-town, team in playoffs 2005.
Grossman didn't get the team to the playoffs, the defense did. Kyle Orton played just as well and was a 4th round pick.
Lions, Harrington, round 1, #3 overall. Too soon to call his career over.
Packers, Rodgers, round 1, Heir apparent to legend Brett Favre.
Vikings, Culpepper, round 1, being written off way too soon by some here.

Falcons, Vick, round 1, #1 overall, A threat despite doubts about him.
Still one of the worst PASSING Qb's though.
Panthers, Delhomme, A rare find.
Saints, Soon will add Leinart, Young or Cutler to list of teams banking on 1st round QBs.
Buccaneers, Sims, Too soon to say on his career.

Cardinals, Warner, near the end of the road, talk exists the Cardinals could go QB if Cutler is there.
Rams, Bulger, We're about to find out if Martz made him or he was a find.
49ers, Alex Smith, round 1, #1 overall. Too soon to say on his career.
Seahawks, Hasselbeck, a rare find.


Bills, Losman, round 1. Too soon to call his career over.
Dolphins, Frerotte, rumors of interest in Culpepper or drafting a QB abound.
Patriots, Brady, a rare find.
Jets, Pennington, round 1. Jets looking at QB to replace injured hope.

Ravens, Boller, round 1. Too soon to call his career over.
Bengals, Palmer, round 1, #1 overall. A rising star that derails your theory by himself. But did you also notice I mentioned he's coming of a very serious injury?
Browns, Frye, too soon to judge his career.
Steelers, Roethlesberger, round 1, Just won a Super Bowl I believe. Again, he wasn't the reason they won the game. And most people on this board I'm sure would agree easily.

Texans, Carr, round 1, #1 overall. Too soon to call his career over.
Colts, P. Manning, round 1, #1 overall. Only the best technical QB in the NFL.
The most overrated 'technical QB' in the NFL, zero superbowls, 3-6 playoff record, has had tons of talent, yet people still think he's way better than a guy like Bledsoe.
Jagaurs, Leftwich, round 1. Too soon to call his career over.
Never said Leftwich was a bust, in fact I think he's going to be one of the greats over the next few years starting in 06' when they knock off indy from the afc south.
Titans, McNair, round 1. Probably drafting his replacement in round 1 this year.

Broncos, Plummer, round 1. Had his best year ever in 2005.
one fluke year, he was back to him old self in the playoffs. wouldn't have even beat the pats if not for boneheaded consecutive turnovers at the end of the first half.
Chiefs, Green, a rare find.
Raiders, Collins, round 1. Will Raiders draft Cutler if the Jets don't?
Chargers, Brees. Rivers a round 1 QB waiting to take over or be dealt.

You can try to make me look stupid Hostile, but you know my thoughts and opinions carry some validity. In todays NFL, it's the TEAM that is ultimately responsible for the outcome, not an individual player at the QB position. And yes this even holds true for Drew Bledsoe and the Cowboys.:cool:

[Hostile]

First of all, I didn't say it was a FACT, merely my opinion...and yes I know my opinions don't mean squat here, especially to you.If you act mature enough I will care about your opinions. I like this response in fact. Wish there was a lot more of this and none of the crap I've seen to this point.

Also this wasn't a discussion to see how many teams had a first rounder as their starting QB or on their roster. The point was to illustrate the success of a 1st rounder compared to others not drafted until later.You'll find that you don't dictate how people respond or what they think. If people see something in a post and it piques their mind they will answer it any way they choose.

Very sorry if the introduction of logic or facts derails your rant.

So you say 1st round QB's have dominated the superbowl, of course they have in the PAST. But how many first round QB's have won in the big game in recent years(minus Big Ben this year, who didn't win anything, his TEAM did).

2005: Winner, Pit - Big Ben - 1st round:(not the reason team won); runner up: Hasslebach - 5th round
2004: Winner, NE - Brady - 6th round; runner up: McNabb - 1st round
2003: Winner, NE - Brady -6th round; runner up: Delhomme - not drafted
2002: Winner, TB - Johnson - 9th round (fits into the 'not drafted' category based on the 7 round format today); runner up: Gannon - 4th round
2001: Winner, NE - Brady - 6th round; runner up: Warner - not drafted
2000: Winner, Bal - Dilfer - 1st Round(not the reason team won); runner up: Kerry Collins - 1st Round
1999: Winner, STL - Warner - not drafted; runner up: Steve Mcnair - 1st round

This would entail 'recent years' which was the point of my arguement, so 5 out of 14 starters from the superbowl teams were starters and only 2 of them won...but funny the 2 winners weren't even the reason their teams won now were they?Yes, and this doesn't mean at all that the next 10 won't be dominated by 1st round QBs. It is easily conceivable that Peyton, Eli, Carson, Byron, Big Ben and Donovan could dominate the next 10 or more. There's no basis in proof to say they are going to end up failures and all who follow them from the 1st round will as well.

Now lets look at your other stat pack, I've bolded my added OPINIONS/Comments:

Cowboys, Bledsoe, round 1, #1 overall
Giants, E. Manning, round 1, #1 overall, team in the playoffs in 2005.
Eli Manning is not the reason they made the playoffs, Tiki Barber and the defense are.
Eagles, McNabb, round 1, #2 overall, string of 4 straight NFC Championship games or better broken. No guarantee exists that he can't make it back.
I forget about him in my initial arguement, yes he's had a lot of success. Still a choker though.
Redskins, Campbell & Ramsey, both drafted in round 1.
A 36 year old 5th round pick was thier starter last year.

Bears, Grossman, round 1, missed part of 2005, still considered the QB in Chi-town, team in playoffs 2005.
Grossman didn't get the team to the playoffs, the defense did. Kyle Orton played just as well and was a 4th round pick.
Lions, Harrington, round 1, #3 overall. Too soon to call his career over.
Packers, Rodgers, round 1, Heir apparent to legend Brett Favre.
Vikings, Culpepper, round 1, being written off way too soon by some here.

Falcons, Vick, round 1, #1 overall, A threat despite doubts about him.
Still one of the worst PASSING Qb's though.
Panthers, Delhomme, A rare find.
Saints, Soon will add Leinart, Young or Cutler to list of teams banking on 1st round QBs.
Buccaneers, Sims, Too soon to say on his career.

Cardinals, Warner, near the end of the road, talk exists the Cardinals could go QB if Cutler is there.
Rams, Bulger, We're about to find out if Martz made him or he was a find.
49ers, Alex Smith, round 1, #1 overall. Too soon to say on his career.
Seahawks, Hasselbeck, a rare find.


Bills, Losman, round 1. Too soon to call his career over.
Dolphins, Frerotte, rumors of interest in Culpepper or drafting a QB abound.
Patriots, Brady, a rare find.
Jets, Pennington, round 1. Jets looking at QB to replace injured hope.

Ravens, Boller, round 1. Too soon to call his career over.
Bengals, Palmer, round 1, #1 overall. A rising star that derails your theory by himself. But did you also notice I mentioned he's coming of a very serious injury?
Browns, Frye, too soon to judge his career.
Steelers, Roethlesberger, round 1, Just won a Super Bowl I believe. Again, he wasn't the reason they won the game. And most people on this board I'm sure would agree easily.

Texans, Carr, round 1, #1 overall. Too soon to call his career over.
Colts, P. Manning, round 1, #1 overall. Only the best technical QB in the NFL.
The most overrated 'technical QB' in the NFL, zero superbowls, 3-6 playoff record, has had tons of talent, yet people still think he's way better than a guy like Bledsoe.
Jagaurs, Leftwich, round 1. Too soon to call his career over.
Never said Leftwich was a bust, in fact I think he's going to be one of the greats over the next few years starting in 06' when they knock off indy from the afc south.
Titans, McNair, round 1. Probably drafting his replacement in round 1 this year.

Broncos, Plummer, round 1. Had his best year ever in 2005.
one fluke year, he was back to him old self in the playoffs. wouldn't have even beat the pats if not for boneheaded consecutive turnovers at the end of the first half.
Chiefs, Green, a rare find.
Raiders, Collins, round 1. Will Raiders draft Cutler if the Jets don't?
Chargers, Brees. Rivers a round 1 QB waiting to take over or be dealt.If you want to make excuses that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that NFL teams draft in a way that totally disproved the part of your thesis that I addressed. Shot more holes in it than Swiss Cheese.

You can try to make me look stupid Hostile, but you know my thoughts and opinions carry some validity. In todays NFL, it's the TEAM that is ultimately responsible for the outcome, not an individual player at the QB position. And yes this even holds true for Drew Bledsoe and the Cowboys.:cool: I never said your opinions don't have some merit. I said your schtick was the essence of acting like a troll to illicit reactions. There is a very large dichomoty between the two. If you stuck to actual football discussions I'd actually look forward to reading your posts instead of dreading them. I'm just not a fan of Drew Bledsoe flavored syrup. That feeling isn't unique to Bledsoe. I'd hate that crap regardless of the player.

[chinch]

you guys here are hung up on #1 QB but Bledsoe4MVP made obvious points that can't be dismissed.

yes some early #1 qbs will have success but stats show many will flunk out of the league and have no immediate or long term impact

if Eli played for dallas last year we'd probably have less than 7 wins. Ben in Houston would have under 5 wins. You guys don't grasp the bus driving concept other teams are utilizing 'cause of the QB legacy here that has spoiled us.

[Chuck 54]

I've said from day 1 that I have no hope that Henson will ever be worth the money spent to keep his equipment clean.

However, to be fair regarding the NFLE situation...I do believe I read somewhere that Jake Delhomme spent two years in NFLE.

[Hostile]

I've said from day 1 that I have no hope that Henson will ever be worth the money spent to keep his equipment clean.

However, to be fair regarding the NFLE situation...I do believe I read somewhere that Jake Delhomme spent two years in NFLE.One as a backup to Kurt Warner in fact.

[Alexander]

Nope, that statement not only won't fly, it can't even crawl.

It is a myth manufactured by people to explain away laziness or inept drafting by an NFL team. I deplore the "bus driver" term and feel it is completely overused and misinterpreted. Every QB can be a "bus driver". In fact, every good QB is that. When they don't "drive the bus", they are a hotshot poor leader who thinks they can do it all themselves and don't acknowledge their limitations.

The worst thing that ever happened to the position was Trent Dilfer winning a world championship. What people don't understand it that is was the exception. And somehow this exception became some sort of a rule.

[Hostile]

It is a myth manufactured by people to explain away laziness or inept drafting by an NFL team. I deplore the "bus driver" term and feel it is completely overused and misinterpreted. Every QB can be a "bus driver". In fact, every good QB is that. When they don't "drive the bus", they are a hotshot poor leader who thinks they can do it all themselves and don't acknowledge their limitations.

The worst thing that ever happened to the position was Trent Dilfer winning a world championship. What people don't understand it that is was the exception. And somehow this exception became some sort of a rule.I couldn't agree with you more. The very idea that any ham and egger out there who can throw a ball could win it all if all the parts around him are good enough is deplorable and goes against everything that the game is actually about.

I want to see the best players given the respect that they deserve for being phenominal at their craft. That is the essence of the beauty of the game at its core.

The QB is the engine. You can have the best engine in the world and it's no good without the rest of the car. But the rest of the car without that engine is basically just a shell.

For several years this team has been a shell. My dreams and passions of the team are tied up in the past glory because the shell hasn't been good enough to equal the History. I'll always be a fan of the team, but I'll never be satisfied with a shell.

I cringe at the term bus driver because of exactly what you said. Describing a top athlete in such a pedestrian way removes so much of the appeal.

[MichaelWinicki]

I couldn't agree with you more. The very idea that any ham and egger out there who can throw a ball could win it all if all the parts around him are good enough is deplorable and goes against everything that the game is actually about.

I want to see the best players given the respect that they deserve for being phenominal at their craft. That is the essence of the beauty of the game at its core.

The QB is the engine. You can have the best engine in the world and it's no good without the rest of the car. But the rest of the car without that engine is basically just a shell.

For several years this team has been a shell. My dreams and passions of the team are tied up in the past glory because the shell hasn't been good enough to equal the History. I'll always be a fan of the team, but I'll never be satisfied with a shell.

I cringe at the term bus driver because of exactly what you said. Describing a top athlete in such a pedestrian way removes so much of the appeal.


Well said.

Good quote by Alexander also.

I agree.

For the most part Super Bowls are won by teams with very good defenses and very good offenses. And even the occasional team that didn't have a top-flight QB (any of the Redskin's wins) still had several prime offensive weapons.

But still for the most part when you find a team winning the Super Bowl you'll find a very good quarterback on that team and not a "bus driver".

[MichaelWinicki]

It seems to be the ones that embrace the "bus driver" mentality when it comes to fielding a winner are probably the sames ones that say "size doesn't matter." ;)

[RCowboyFan]

It seems to be the ones that embrace the "bus driver" mentality when it comes to fielding a winner are probably the sames ones that say "size doesn't matter." ;)


Ouch, that was low :D

[Cbz40]

It seems to be the ones that embrace the "bus driver" mentality when it comes to fielding a winner are probably the sames ones that say "size doesn't matter." ;)


And a good afternoon to you to Michael.

[MichaelWinicki]

And a good afternoon to you to Michael.

Afternoon Pops! :)

[gbrittain]

And Romo's been beat out by

42 Year old VT
Drew Bledsoe
Drew Henson...In 2004

Now going on year 4 and never having thrown a NFL pass...He needs to start doing it.

:lmao2: :lmao:

[gbrittain]

Well Cbz, if you look at the recent history of the NFL very few 1st round QB's go on to be superstars or 'franchise qbs'. In fact guys like Tom Brady, Jake Delhomme, Kurt Warner, Trent Green, etc have shown that being a drafted early means nothing. These were all late round gems.

Tim Couch, Akili Smith, JP Lose-man, Kyle Boller, David Carr, Cade Mcnown, Jim Drunkenmiller, Joey Harrington, Ryan Leaf, etc all headline a long list of bums that were overhyped coming out of college over the last 5+ years. And based on what I've seen from Eli Manning and Alex Smith so far, you can lump them in the same group too. Some of these clowns are already pumping gas and out of the league that's how big a bust they were. Heck, I remember when people a majority of the experts were saying that Ryan Leif was a FAR BETTER athlete that Manning. The colts even admitted at first they were leaning towards Leif instead of Manning that fateful day.

It's always a gamble taking a QB that high, in fact Big Ben and Carson Palmer(whos future is up in the air after a major injury) are the only ones that have done anything of note in recent years. Mike Vick is known for being a playmaker on the ground, but he is a bust as a passer too.

The bottom line is the days of drafting a true 'stud':cool: first overall or in the first round are long over. And that's what makes guys like Aikman, Elway, Bledsoe, etc so great. They were clearly in a class of their own coming out of college and more than lived up to the hype.

Here is a problem with all the 1st round QB hating going around.

You mentioned Tim Couch, Akili Smith, JP Loseman, Kyle Boller, David Carr, Cade McCown, Jim Drunkenmiller, Joey Harrington, and Ryan Leaf as busts.

What about RBs William Green, TJ Duckett, Thomas Jones, Ron Dayne, Curtis Enis, Ki-Jana Carter.

What about WRs Charles Rogers, Bryant Johnson, David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Rod Gardner, Freddie Mitchel, Peter Warrick, Travis Taylor, Sylvester Morris.

Anyway, I just used RBs and WRs as examples. You will find plenty of prominent picks at any position that are busts.

[gbrittain]

It is a myth manufactured by people to explain away laziness or inept drafting by an NFL team. I deplore the "bus driver" term and feel it is completely overused and misinterpreted. Every QB can be a "bus driver". In fact, every good QB is that. When they don't "drive the bus", they are a hotshot poor leader who thinks they can do it all themselves and don't acknowledge their limitations.

The worst thing that ever happened to the position was Trent Dilfer winning a world championship. What people don't understand it that is was the exception. And somehow this exception became some sort of a rule.

What is funny is Antowain Smith a average RB on his very best day started in two Superbowls and Timmy Smith was the starting RB in a Superbowl and set the all time Superbowl single game performance record, but I dont see the same argument being made for RBs.

There are exceptions to all rules.