RECAP: Norm and JJT

[InmanRoshi]

Norm: I believe the Cowboys can be in the Superbowl next year. There is no great team in the NFC. Out of the past 5 Superbowl losers, none of them have made the playoffs the next year. If you factor Seattle downward, and even though they had a pretty good year you would have to given past history , who scares you in the NFC? Giants? I guess the Panthers are pretty good. Bucs with Chris Simms? Philly? Why not Dallas. There are obvious holes, but there are obvious holes in every single team in the NFC. This is hole-filling time of the year. Adn astute football teams fill those holes, and the Cowboys did a great job of it last year. This time last year the Cowboys were pigsnot. The club advanced the team in every phase of the offseason … through free agency, drafts, undrafted free agents and trades with Fujita and Pile. If they have another offseason like that, they should be able to compete in this conference. Even if the Cowboys make no moves the Cowboys should be better. Rookies get better their 2nd year, and this was an excellent rookie crop. Everyone looked good, except for Burnett who we are still unsure about. Pettiti wore down, but what were you expecting out a 6th round draft pick who was thrown out there to start? Second, it will be their 2nd year in the 3-4. There will be more recognition playing the defense where you’ve seen things over and over and over again. The question last year was how quickly will it take this defense to get to the point where they can play a decent 3-4. I think it came along better than expected thanks to some key contributors. And from an injury standpoint, if Flozell is well the LT spot at least shouldn’t be a swinging door like it was last year.


Norm and JJT.

The club needs to replace Dat at ILB, if you can do it, would you offer a 3rd for Ray Lewis?

No, he can’t play in the 3-4. That’s one reason they switched back to the 4-3, because he’s not big to start with and now that he’s slowed down with age he’ll get killed like Dat did. He’s an undersized, speedy LB. The complete antithesis of what you want in the 3-4.

How much has the league changed when a 245 LB is undersized?
But I don’t think he weighs that much. He’s more of a 235, and 10 lbs. is a lot of weight at that position. I got a problem with him anyway. I don’t mind TO asking for more money, because he’s still a great player playing at a high level. But Lewis is on the downside of his career and crying about more money after Baltimore paid him a $51 million his last contract and stood by him through his legal problems. And he’s still moaning and groaning? I wouldn’t want him on my team.

Do you think they are interested in TO?
Nope, he’s a WCO guy, and he wants to play in a pass first offense.

Will Greg Ellis stay?
Sounds that way from Jerry and Bill. Greg still wants to be convinced, but he doesn’t have a lot of choice. He’s a good player and a good person, he doesn’t deserve to be benched the way he was last year. They make promises about playing time now, but I wouldn’t believe them.

LeRoi’s future?
I don’t see him back in Dallas at that salary. He’s a terrific guy and a good player, but you can’t play a backup NT that money. I don’t know that he wants to redo his deal to play here.

Any other whispers of vets getting cut?
Nope, Keyshawn and Terry Glenn make a pittance for WR’s who produce their numbers. If anything, they are probably in line for a raise. I think they would like to restructure Larry Allen, but I don’t think they’ll do too much with his contract. They’re not going to make a big deal of it if he’s going to be a huge pain in the butt because of it. They’ll just probably put up for him for one last year.

Should we be concerned with Rivera and Allen with their age and money invested?
I think it’s a big issue with this team. That’s why its funny that they’ve been blowing Andre Gurode’s agent phone up acting like they can’t live without him, because they are scared these guys are always going to be hurt.

Isn’t Gurode’s poor play the reason why they signed Rivera in the first place?
Exactly, but now they decided they are in love with Andre again. I’m tight with his agent and he’s always asking me “Why do they want Gurode back so badly?”. This is a guy who last year they came out and told him after the season that they wanted to upgrade over him.

This is a guy I thought was getting shoved off the roster. If this is true, are they sending flowers and candy to Torrin Tucker right now?
I don’t know, I haven’t talked to his camp. I think this Gurode thing is fascining. I think they just love his style and size, and think he’ll eventually turn into a good player and they don’t want to see him do it with another team.

They pay Rivera millions, put him as a backup behind Al Johnson at center and they can’t live without him?
I didn’t say it made sense.

Is Bentley target #1 on this team?
I don’t know. My buddy Todd Archer is in Indy right now with his ear to the ground. The Combine is where a lot of those sales pitches are first getting hashed out. I read he wants to play in Cleveland, but of course he’ll go where the $$$ is. If I were them, I would get him because he’s a young, ascending player who will be a good player throughout his contract.

Jason Fabini show up on your radar?
He’s a classic guy who would show up in Dallas. I would look younger first, but if you can’t find a guy and he’s willing to wait until after the draft I would bring him in. I doubt that’s possible, but he’s the classic kind of Parcells guy that you would expect him to bring in, and I don’t think he’ll command huge money. At least if you get him, and if you draft a guy in the 2nd or 3rd round, you don’t have to start him right away.

Any names you hear at the safety position?
Not right now. I guess the names being speculated are Chris Hope and Chavous,but part of managing the cap is managing how you spend your money. Roy Williams' contract will be up in a few years and Terrence Newman after that, they’ll command a zillion dollars. You already got a zillion in Henry. How much do you want to invest in your secondary?

Jerry Jones said on this show a month and a half ago would be getting a new deal done with Bledsoe. Heard anything about it?
No, if they’re working on that I don’t think it will be complicated one. I don’t think it’s a frontburner issue. They’ll probably just keep it lowkey and swap some contract parameters. Which is probably why I haven’t heard anything about it.

[Alexander]

Should we be concerned with Rivera and Allen with their age and money invested?
I think it’s a big issue with this team. That’s why its funny that they’ve been blowing Andre Gurode’s agent phone up acting like they can’t live without him, because they are scared these guys are always going to be hurt.

Isn’t Gurode’s poor play the reason why they signed Rivera in the first place?
Exactly, but now they decided they are in love with Andre again. I’m tight with his agent and he’s always asking me “Why do they want Gurode back so badly?”. This is a guy who last year they came out and told him after the season that they wanted to upgrade over him.


And then depression set in.

[Chocolate Lab]

Great job, IR. Thanks as always.

Wonder why the two didn't consider that maybe they want Gurode at center, not as a replacement for Rivera (although I'm definitely not one of the ones complaining about Al Johnson)...

[junk]

Why redo Bledsoe? Makes no sense at all.

Those are the silly moves that get a team in cap hell.

[1fisher]

Do you think they are interested in TO?
Nope, he’s a WCO guy, and he wants to play in a pass first offense.


best thing I've heare all day.....:bow: :yourock: :bravo: :toast: :thumbup: :worthy2: :clap2: :dance3: :grin2: :crossed: :flagwave: :doh: :clap: :tongue:

[rynochop]

I don’t mind TO asking for more money, because he’s still a great player playing at a high level. But Lewis is on the downside of his career and crying about more money after Baltimore paid him a $51 million his last contract and stood by him through his legal problems. And he’s still moaning and groaning? I wouldn’t want him on my team.


Hard to disagree with that.

[MrPhil]

IMO, this makes our OL situation look like it is in total disarray. Which, I guess if you look at it, it really is! UGH......

[Kittymama]

Isn’t Gurode’s poor play the reason why they signed Rivera in the first place?
Exactly, but now they decided they are in love with Andre again. I’m tight with his agent and he’s always asking me “Why do they want Gurode back so badly?”. This is a guy who last year they came out and told him after the season that they wanted to upgrade over him.
Ok, I'll admit that I can't stand JJT, think he's a whiner who's constantly making up "issues" (he's even doing it in this article) that aren't there, but I'm sorry--he's a total liar. What agent is POSSIBLY going to ask a reporter "why do they want my client back so badly?" Any agent worth his commission is going to be telling any reporter within earshot how great his client is & of COURSE a team--in fact, many teams--are interested in him & how, naturally, his current team should understand their mistake in underestimating him.

I also doubt he's "tight" with the agent of a player that he (JJT) keeps saying is a poor player. Again, what self-respecting agent would be feeding info. to a reporter who constantly badmouths his client?

[DLCassidy]

The club needs to replace Dat at ILB, if you can do it, would you offer a 3rd for Ray Lewis?

No, he can’t play in the 3-4. That’s one reason they switched back to the 4-3, because he’s not big to start with and now that he’s slowed down with age he’ll get killed like Dat did. He’s an undersized, speedy LB. The complete antithesis of what you want in the 3-4.



:hammer:

[jterrell]

Why redo Bledsoe? Makes no sense at all.

Those are the silly moves that get a team in cap hell.
huh?

If they redo Bledsoe it'll be to add some years and insure they aren't forced to cough up big dough to keep him after the season. While many would be fine letting him just walk(the management would not be fine with it) that would be a rather poor football move given the current depth at the position.

This isn't a Redskin move to lower his cap hit.

Bledsoe ended up 1 pull out away from the Pro Bowl last year. While he was not great at all we haven't been that close to that level of play since Aikman retired. So you have to guage what you have and what you can get at a reasonable price. I'd much prefer Culpepper or Brees but not at the cost of doubling or tripling the yearly cap hit.

[Woods]

I don't understand why JJT thinks we'll just put up with LA's contract either.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's asked to restructure.

[AbeBeta]

What is this about "can't live without Gurode"?

since when? you'd think if we had so much love for him that we would have got something done at this point.

[jterrell]

I don’t mind TO asking for more money, because he’s still a great player playing at a high level. But Lewis is on the downside of his career and crying about more money after Baltimore paid him a $51 million his last contract and stood by him through his legal problems. And he’s still moaning and groaning? I wouldn’t want him on my team.


Hard to disagree with that.
Not for me.

Lewis won a Defensive MVP on that contract and has seen his stature amongst LBs fall considerably in the pay scale department. He realizes he has one last big signing bonus comin if he can renegotiate.

TO was in his deal all of one year and had missed parts of the season with an injury.

Lewis is a lifelong Raven who has never tested free agency. TO was lucky he was able to force a trade to the team of his choice: The Eagles, then bickered with the team and the QB.

Lewis is a team leader who gets admiration in the lockerroom and takes the guys to his mom's house for home cooking. TO is hosting a reality show about his personal fitness.

The Eagles placed the offense in TO's hands while the Ravens went to the 3-4 defense that was ill-suited for Lewis.

Lewis > TO imho and by a mile.

[jterrell]

I don't understand why JJT thinks we'll just put up with LA's contract either.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's asked to restructure.
Because what he stated makes sense.

LA is a moody guy and no sense hacking him off to save a couple mil on this years cap when you are probably gonna just cut im next off-season and end up eating most of any savings anyway. He's too good to just cut and pay this year and he's better when motivated and feeling loved then when pushed around as BP learned quickly.

JJT's comments are spot on IMHO. I think they'll throw it out there and if any real resistance is raised just move on down the road planning to replace him next off-season.

Dallas does feel it is entering this year with potentila Super Bowl aspirations. They aren't gonna copy the Jets and 49ers releasing decent NFL players.

[Yakuza Rich]

Will Greg Ellis stay?

Sounds that way from Jerry and Bill. Greg still wants to be convinced, but he doesn’t have a lot of choice. He’s a good player and a good person, he doesn’t deserve to be benched the way he was last year.

What a stupid statement by JJT.

Last season Ellis was a good pass rusher in the nickel and nothing more than an extra body in the 3-4 base because he wasn't very good against the run. According to the footballoutsiders.com Web site (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl.php) Dallas finished 30th against the run on plays run at Ellis' direction.

If a guy can't produce in the base defense, but can produce in the nickel, the team doesn't owe that player a starting spot. Only losing teams think otherwise.

Rich.........

[ABQCOWBOY]

What a stupid statement by JJT.

Last season Ellis was a good pass rusher in the nickel and nothing more than an extra body in the 3-4 base because he wasn't very good against the run. According to the footballoutsiders.com Web site (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl.php) Dallas finished 30th against the run on plays run at Ellis' direction.

If a guy can't produce in the base defense, but can produce in the nickel, the team doesn't owe that player a starting spot. Only losing teams think otherwise.

Rich.........


Rich, I'm interested in this stat. How many running plays did Ellis participate in while in the 34? Do you have that info?

[tyke1doe]

Ok, I'll admit that I can't stand JJT, think he's a whiner who's constantly making up "issues" (he's even doing it in this article) that aren't there, but I'm sorry--he's a total liar. What agent is POSSIBLY going to ask a reporter "why do they want my client back so badly?" Any agent worth his commission is going to be telling any reporter within earshot how great his client is & of COURSE a team--in fact, many teams--are interested in him & how, naturally, his current team should understand their mistake in underestimating him.
I also doubt he's "tight" with the agent of a player that he (JJT) keeps saying is a poor player. Again, what self-respecting agent would be feeding info. to a reporter who constantly badmouths his client?


Why would JJT go public with the fact that he's tight with Gurode's agent, and he isn't?

Look, agents are tight with reporters and reporters are tight with agents. And they both use each other.

Agents are trying to pick the brain of reporters - what they've heard from other anonymous sources, whether players, coaches, other agents etc.

Reporters want a story and want contact to inside sources.

It happens all the time. There's no reason to lie about this issue.

[Yakuza Rich]

Rich, I'm interested in this stat. How many running plays did Ellis participate in while in the 34? Do you have that info?

I wish I had the info, but I don't. All I know is that Ellis started for most of the season and then they put Canty and even moved Glover to his spot because they were afraid of teams running on him.

I really disagree with Ellis' griping about the situation. He signed that big contract back at the end of 2003 and the Cowboys have stuck by it and have no reason to not stick by it.

Furthermore, they cut down his snaps which probably has added a year or two to his career. And if they wanted to cut him, he'd be of higher value of teams because he's a pretty good pass rusher who can play in both the 3-4 and the 4-3.

But Ellis and JJT are adamant in believing that Jerry and Bill are going to screw him over.

Go figure.


Rich........

[CrazyCowboy]

Nice post....thanks for sharing

[Zimmy Lives]

I wish I had the info, but I don't. All I know is that Ellis started for most of the season and then they put Canty and even moved Glover to his spot because they were afraid of teams running on him.

I really disagree with Ellis' griping about the situation. He signed that big contract back at the end of 2003 and the Cowboys have stuck by it and have no reason to not stick by it.

Furthermore, they cut down his snaps which probably has added a year or two to his career. And if they wanted to cut him, he'd be of higher value of teams because he's a pretty good pass rusher who can play in both the 3-4 and the 4-3.

But Ellis and JJT are adamant in believing that Jerry and Bill are going to screw him over.

Go figure.


Rich........

JJT makes it no secret that he has had a man crush on Greg Ellis since he began covering the Boys.

Greg Ellis has served the Cowboys well but, in fairness, they have taken good care of him. He has been compensated well even though he has never lived up to the expectations of being a top-ten draft pick. True, the Cowboys changed to a defense that does not make the best use of his talent but he is still getting paid.

The Cowboys have always treated Greg Ellis with a great deal of respect so I wish both he and his mouthpiece, JJT, would just shut up.

[InmanRoshi]

I wish I had the info, but I don't. All I know is that Ellis started for most of the season and then they put Canty and even moved Glover to his spot because they were afraid of teams running on him.

I really disagree with Ellis' griping about the situation. He signed that big contract back at the end of 2003 and the Cowboys have stuck by it and have no reason to not stick by it.

Furthermore, they cut down his snaps which probably has added a year or two to his career. And if they wanted to cut him, he'd be of higher value of teams because he's a pretty good pass rusher who can play in both the 3-4 and the 4-3.

But Ellis and JJT are adamant in believing that Jerry and Bill are going to screw him over.

Go figure.


Rich........


ITA. Greg Ellis gets a lot of miliage out of being a good guy. He even got drafted way ahead of where his talent level deserves because he's such a good guy. JTT, as a beat reporter , owes his readers a degree of objectivity. He makes no bones about the fact that he feels its his job to disagree with Parcells if need be because that's what he owes to his readers. Well, I think he's so wrappd up in man-love with Greg Ellis as a person that he has trouble providing an honest assessment of his situation. Granted, this was Norm asking him his opinion, but I think its slanted his "Greg Ellis is a Martyr" articles for the DMN as well.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I wish I had the info, but I don't. All I know is that Ellis started for most of the season and then they put Canty and even moved Glover to his spot because they were afraid of teams running on him.

I really disagree with Ellis' griping about the situation. He signed that big contract back at the end of 2003 and the Cowboys have stuck by it and have no reason to not stick by it.

Furthermore, they cut down his snaps which probably has added a year or two to his career. And if they wanted to cut him, he'd be of higher value of teams because he's a pretty good pass rusher who can play in both the 3-4 and the 4-3.

But Ellis and JJT are adamant in believing that Jerry and Bill are going to screw him over.

Go figure.


Rich........


Well Rich, I'll tell ya, I'm kinda on the other side of this one. I believe we should trade him and get what we can for him right now. We wait longer and I think we get little value out of him. I too expect his numbers to go down along with his playing time. The young kids are going to improve and when they do, Ellis is going to see less and less playing time IMO.

[InmanRoshi]

I think we still don't have a pass rusher to replace Ellis in the nickel right now, so he's not quite expendible yet given his modest salary. I think Spears or Ratliff will probably take Glover's place as the defensive tackle in the nickel.

If we take an outside pass rusher early in the draft and Greg continues with the martyr complex, I wouldn't be surprised to see him elsewhere before the start of next season.

[junk]

huh?

If they redo Bledsoe it'll be to add some years and insure they aren't forced to cough up big dough to keep him after the season. While many would be fine letting him just walk(the management would not be fine with it) that would be a rather poor football move given the current depth at the position.

This isn't a Redskin move to lower his cap hit.

Bledsoe ended up 1 pull out away from the Pro Bowl last year. While he was not great at all we haven't been that close to that level of play since Aikman retired. So you have to guage what you have and what you can get at a reasonable price. I'd much prefer Culpepper or Brees but not at the cost of doubling or tripling the yearly cap hit.

Except that Bledsoe signed a three year deal. He still has two years left.

When a player gets to that age, I'd at least wait until he was a year away from free agency before extending him.

Like I said, silly.

[InmanRoshi]

Except that Bledsoe signed a three year deal. He still has two years left.

When a player gets to that age, I'd at least wait until he was a year away from free agency before extending him.

Like I said, silly.

But the last year is so backloaded its essentially a meaningless number.

[junk]

I really disagree with Ellis' griping about the situation. He signed that big contract back at the end of 2003 and the Cowboys have stuck by it and have no reason to not stick by it.


Rich........
What big contract? Ellis' deal was incredibly modest.

[neosapien23]

What is this about "can't live without Gurode"?

since when? you'd think if we had so much love for him that we would have got something done at this point.

Its because Rivera is a bust!

[AbeBeta]

Its because Rivera is a bust!

Doubtful. Who would you count on contributing more? A guy who has been to several pro-bowls who had a down year -- likely due to injury? Or a guy who couldn't put it together in 4 years with the team?

[neosapien23]

Doubtful. Who would you count on contributing more? A guy who has been to several pro-bowls who had a down year -- likely due to injury? Or a guy who couldn't put it together in 4 years with the team?

Hey I'm not saying Rivera wasn't a better guard in the past, but 33 year old players with back injuries usually don't return to form. At this point in their careers, Gurode is the better player now that Rivera has lost his strength and explosion.

[CoCo]

Its very plausible that JJT has talked w/Gurode's agent. And his agent isn't saying "but my client isn't worth it" he's saying "but 12 months ago the Cowboys told him they were moving in a different direction - hence Rivera". And that is true. I don't understand why someone would read that and think JJT is making stuff up or lying.

I also agree that handling Allen's situation is delicate. You have to be careful when you approach an employee and tell them "we don't think you're worth your contract. We still love you and value you, but its for fewer $$" And right or wrong, Allen went to the pro Bowl again. So it would be very easy for Allen to say "take a hike" and then Dallas needs to decide if they want to cut him. Some players get very hurt and offended over that. others recognize the economics behind it. Remember when Trotter was offended by the Eagles offer, left in a huff, and then signed for LESS with the Skins? What do you think Allen would do? Me thinks he's very proud.

Why all the hub-ub about Ellis? He has a deal and if Dallas truly has a role for him, comparable to the $$ they're paying him, they'll put him on the field. If not, they'll trade or release him. I'm sure Ellis is a bit hurt but I think mostly he saw teh significant loss of PT as a sign that they would be moving him out. He just read to the world what Dallas was writing on the wall - and he did so with very little bitterness IMO. So Bill & Jerry will decide if they want Ellis for those $$ and I think everyone will be fine either way. Its not that big a soap opera and I don't think Ellis is really treating it that way. Yeah, he could have stayed silent but its not like he's spewing venom either. Wait it out.

[junk]

But the last year is so backloaded its essentially a meaningless number.

So worry about it next year. He said he wants to finish his career in Dallas. He just turned 34. I see no reason to rush out this contract extension.

What if he falls apart? What if suffers a major injury?

Reports had him signing a three year, $14 million contract. His salaries:

2005 2000000.00
2006 3500000.00
2007 4500000.00

His prorated signing bonus: $666,666 on a $2 million bonus. So, I am assuming a $2 millon roster bonus in 2007? So, his cap hit would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $7.2 million? In 2007?

Granted its backloaded, but if he is still playing at a high level, he earned that cash and let him play it out. Nothing for a QB. Or redo the deal NEXT year.

Absolutely no reason to do it this year.

[Yakuza Rich]

What big contract? Ellis' deal was incredibly modest.

For a DE that was a top 10 pick, Ellis only averaged 5.8 sacks per season through 6 years of play when he signed that contract. That contract was more generous on Parcells and Jones' part than modest on Ellis' part.


Rich.......

[junk]

For a DE that was a top 10 pick, Ellis only averaged 5.8 sacks per season through 6 years of play when he signed that contract. That contract was more generous on Parcells and Jones' part than modest on Ellis' part.


Rich.......

Compare it to Grant Wistrom.....by league standards, it was modest.

[DaBoyz73]

What a stupid statement by JJT.

Last season Ellis was a good pass rusher in the nickel and nothing more than an extra body in the 3-4 base because he wasn't very good against the run. According to the footballoutsiders.com Web site (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl.php) Dallas finished 30th against the run on plays run at Ellis' direction.

If a guy can't produce in the base defense, but can produce in the nickel, the team doesn't owe that player a starting spot. Only losing teams think otherwise.

Rich.........

A interesting fact is that we were 12th in pass protection, go figure?

[AbeBeta]

Compare it to Grant Wistrom.....by league standards, it was modest.

Yes, very modest. As has been his production throughout his career. Solid starter but never the top flight DE we needed.

[2much2soon]

What a stupid statement by JJT.

Last season Ellis was a good pass rusher in the nickel and nothing more than an extra body in the 3-4 base because he wasn't very good against the run. According to the footballoutsiders.com Web site (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl.php) Dallas finished 30th against the run on plays run at Ellis' direction.



This seems odd. Dallas contained some top RBs in the first part of the season when Ellis was starting.
When Ellis's PT was cut back the defense started getting gashed. I guess it was the effect of missing Al Singleton and Anthony Henry at the same time;)

[dbair1967]

For a DE that was a top 10 pick, Ellis only averaged 5.8 sacks per season through 6 years of play when he signed that contract. That contract was more generous on Parcells and Jones' part than modest on Ellis' part.


Rich.......

well, part of thereason his avg sacks were only 5.8 is because he came off a truly brutal broken leg injury from his 2nd season and had only 3 sacks his 3rd yr...the fact he even played at all was somewhat impressive

the fact is the guy was better than some of the DE's who signed much larger contracts after he did (especially Grant Wistrom)...Ellis signed an incredible bargain basement deal to stay here...he's had at least 8 sacks in 5 of his 8seasons, and if you discount the yr after the broken leg he has at least 8 sacks in 5 of 7 NFL seasons..considering he has played for a defensive coordinator who has almost no ability to build a defense to pressure a QB thats damn impressive, Ellis has 17 sacks in two yrs since signing his new deal...Grant Wistrom has 8 sacks in two seasons in Seattle...Jevon Kearse has 16 sacks in two yrs in Philly...those guys got mammoth signing bonuses and havent been as productive as Ellis has

David

[AbeBeta]

This seems odd. Dallas contained some top RBs in the first part of the season when Ellis was starting.
When Ellis's PT was cut back the defense started getting gashed. I guess it was the effect of missing Al Singleton and Anthony Henry at the same time;)

and Dat. and having a less effective offense so that the D was on the field more. don't forget that Henry's injury forced Roy to be in coverage more - and he's pretty good against the run you know.

I really think we have to give the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt on that decision. hard to say No Ellis -> worse run D because of all those other factors.

[MichaelWinicki]

well, part of thereason his avg sacks were only 5.8 is because he came off a truly brutal broken leg injury from his 2nd season and had only 3 sacks his 3rd yr...the fact he even played at all was somewhat impressive

the fact is the guy was better than some of the DE's who signed much larger contracts after he did (especially Grant Wistrom)...Ellis signed an incredible bargain basement deal to stay here...he's had at least 8 sacks in 5 of his 8seasons, and if you discount the yr after the broken leg he has at least 8 sacks in 5 of 7 NFL seasons..considering he has played for a defensive coordinator who has almost no ability to build a defense to pressure a QB thats damn impressive, Ellis has 17 sacks in two yrs since signing his new deal...Grant Wistrom has 8 sacks in two seasons in Seattle...Jevon Kearse has 16 sacks in two yrs in Philly...those guys got mammoth signing bonuses and havent been as productive as Ellis has

David


Well said David.

Plus the fact is Ellis is a very good defensive end vs. the run. Why no one acknowledges his ability to defend vs run is beyond me.

[JIGGYFLY]

What a stupid statement by JJT.

Last season Ellis was a good pass rusher in the nickel and nothing more than an extra body in the 3-4 base because he wasn't very good against the run. According to the footballoutsiders.com Web site (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl.php) Dallas finished 30th against the run on plays run at Ellis' direction.

If a guy can't produce in the base defense, but can produce in the nickel, the team doesn't owe that player a starting spot. Only losing teams think otherwise.

Rich.........
Rich I gonna have to call you out on this one :) I know your to smart to let a ranking tell you the worth of a player esp in a 3/4 D, unless you watch every play and know each players responsibility you cannot say who is at fault and we all know the problems fujita had. I can see your not a big ellis fan but to use this stat against him is really showing a bias.

Looking over your scale again I notice teams only ran at ellis 9% of time so they could not have been having a lot of success.

[dbair1967]

Well said David.

Plus the fact is Ellis is a very good defensive end vs. the run. Why no one acknowledges his ability to defend vs run is beyond me.

I always wonder the same thing

I guarantee you if Ellis played for Washington or Philly and posted the same numbers he had for Dallas most on this forum would be making post after post about how "we gotta get that guy!!!"

but because he plays here and was drafted instead of that loser Randy Moss, he is an afterthought...he also gets a raw deal because he was drafted by Jones, and people assume because Jones drafted him he must be lousy...when in fact he is a really good player

David

[neosapien23]

I always wonder the same thing

I guarantee you if Ellis played for Washington or Philly and posted the same numbers he had for Dallas most on this forum would be making post after post about how "we gotta get that guy!!!"

but because he plays here and was drafted instead of that loser Randy Moss, he is an afterthought...he also gets a raw deal because he was drafted by Jones, and people assume because Jones drafted him he must be lousy...when in fact he is a really good player

David

I bet Ellis would have been a double digit sack guy if Ebenezer Injureban had live up to his draft hype. Ekuban was highly touted out of college, but he just sucked in the pros. I don't fault Jones at all for that pick, because alot of fans were jumping up and down on draft day.

[JIGGYFLY]

I always wonder the same thing

I guarantee you if Ellis played for Washington or Philly and posted the same numbers he had for Dallas most on this forum would be making post after post about how "we gotta get that guy!!!"

but because he plays here and was drafted instead of that loser Randy Moss, he is an afterthought...he also gets a raw deal because he was drafted by Jones, and people assume because Jones drafted him he must be lousy...when in fact he is a really good player

David
:signmast:

[InmanRoshi]

Compare it to Grant Wistrom.....by league standards, it was modest.

Compare it to Leonard Little, and it was generous.

[InmanRoshi]

I always wonder the same thing

I guarantee you if Ellis played for Washington or Philly and posted the same numbers he had for Dallas most on this forum would be making post after post about how "we gotta get that guy!!!"

but because he plays here and was drafted instead of that loser Randy Moss, he is an afterthought...he also gets a raw deal because he was drafted by Jones, and people assume because Jones drafted him he must be lousy...when in fact he is a really good player

David

Quite the opposite. For any other team, a player drafted with a top 10 who never achieved a double digit sack season would be a huge disappointment. But since Cowboy fans have defended him so often for so long because of the Moss debacle, they are overly sensative about him. And since he's played on a franchise that has had much bigger disappointments at the DE position like Carver, Pittman and Ekuban, 8 sacks from a Top 10 draft pick seems like a steal to Cowboy fans.

I don't think anyone who follows another team holds Greg Ellis to nearly the high esteem that Cowboy fans do. He's just a nice, servicable player but no where near a Pro Bowl caliber player. Not even a Pro Bowl alternate. Ask people to make a Top 15 list of DE's in the past 10 years, I doubt Greg Ellis gets many mentions.

[JIGGYFLY]

Quite the opposite. For any other team, a player drafted with a top 10 who never achieved a double digit sack season would be a huge disappointment. But since Cowboy fans have defended him so often for so long because of the Moss debacle, they are overly sensative about him.

I don't think anyone who follows another team holds Greg Ellis to nearly the high esteem that Cowboy fans do. He's just a nice, servicable player but no where near a Pro Bowl caliber player. Ask people to make a Top 20 list of DE's in the past 10 years, I doubt Greg Ellis gets many mentions.
Name Yours.

[Yakuza Rich]

Quite the opposite. For any other team, a player drafted in the top 10 who never achieved a double digit sack season would be a huge disappointment. But since Cowboy fans have defended him so often for so long because of the Moss debacle, they are overly sensative about him.

I don't think anyone who follows another team holds Greg Ellis to nearly the high esteem that Cowboy fans do. He's just a nice, servicable player but no where near a Pro Bowl caliber player.

Not only that, but Wistrom averaged 6.9 sacks per year compared to Ellis 5.8 sacks per year when Wistrom signed with Seattle.

I'm not sure when Little re-signed with the Rams, but in a 3 year stretch he had 39 sacks.

I don't think Jones and Parcells overpaid Ellis, but considering the factors it was still a generous contract for Ellis and he really has no reason for complaining about it.

Rich.........

[JIGGYFLY]

Actually he is not complaining about his contract it was playing time.

[Yakuza Rich]

Ellis has 17 sacks in two yrs since signing his new deal...Grant Wistrom has 8 sacks in two seasons in Seattle...Jevon Kearse has 16 sacks in two yrs in Philly...those guys got mammoth signing bonuses and havent been as productive as Ellis has

Well, I didn't want Kearse or Wistrom and I thought both the Seahawks and Eagles overpaid big time for their services when they signed them.

I'm not really the type that thinks we got some great deal on a player when other teams happen to screw up an greatly overpay for other players. That's their dumb mistakes, doesn't mean we should be making them too.

Rich............

[Yakuza Rich]

Actually he is not complaining about his contract it was playing time.

Not really.

He was quoted several times saying that he was worried about getting cut and not getting his roster bonus. When he stopped getting playing time he rolled out the "see, I'm not getting as much playing time as I used to and that's just a sign I'll get cut and not receive my roster bonus. I told you" line.

I don't have a problem with a player getting mad that he wasn't getting the money that he should have gotten, but the Cowboys have no intention of cutting Ellis and actually did him some favors by moving to the 3-4 and cutting his playing time. And more importantly, he's going to receive his roster bonus.

Rich.......

[JIGGYFLY]

Not really.

He was quoted several times saying that he was worried about getting cut and not getting his roster bonus. When he stopped getting playing time he rolled out the "see, I'm not getting as much playing time as I used to and that's just a sign I'll get cut and not receive my roster bonus. I told you" line.

I don't have a problem with a player getting mad that he wasn't getting the money that he should have gotten, but the Cowboys have no intention of cutting Ellis and actually did him some favors by moving to the 3-4 and cutting his playing time. And more importantly, he's going to receive his roster bonus.

Rich.......
LINK. I read this board and others daily and have never seen money brought up. We all can read between the lines and see he is angling for his next contract but to say the cowboys did him a favor is...................................:laugh2:

[InmanRoshi]

[/B]
Name Yours.

Off the top of my head .....

Rice
Strahan
Kearse
Little
Taylor
Suggs
Boulware
McGinnest
Porter
Abraham
Shaun Ellis
Freeney
Peppers
KGB
Pryce
Hugh Douglas
Rucker
Berry
Kearney
Charles Grant
Reggie Hayward
Ogunleye

Have proven clear superiority to Ellis during his career

I'm sure I'm missing others. With a little statistical research, it wouldn' surprise me if I had Porcher, Wistrom, Howard, Lance Johnstone and a few others on that list as well.

And before its all over, I'll have another handfull of players who are just starting to hit their prime that I wouldn't put on that list just yet. Will Smith, Jared Allen, Alex Brown, DeMarcus Ware etc.

[junk]

Not only that, but Wistrom averaged 6.9 sacks per year compared to Ellis 5.8 sacks per year when Wistrom signed with Seattle.

I'm not sure when Little re-signed with the Rams, but in a 3 year stretch he had 39 sacks.

I don't think Jones and Parcells overpaid Ellis, but considering the factors it was still a generous contract for Ellis and he really has no reason for complaining about it.

Rich.........

So, one more sack per year average is worth $10 million more in signing bonus. That's ridiculous.

Salaries:
Ellis:
2003 2741215.00
2004 2000000.00
2005 2250000.00
2006 2250000.00
2007 2500000.00
2008 3325000.00
2009 4150000.00


Wistrom:
2004 1500000.00
2005 2000000.00
2006 3500000.00
2007 3500000.00
2008 4000000.00
2009 4500000.00

I'd say Ellis' deal is well below market value. Shall we look at Kearse?

Kearse:
2004 535000.00
2005 890000.00
2006 2075000.00
2007 5200000.00
2008 6460000.00
2009 7720000.00
2010 8980000.00
2011 10240000.00

With a $16 million signing bonus.

Ellis' signing bonus was a paltry $4.2 million. Thats nothing in this day and age. He isn't a world beater, but he is a very solid defensive end who is playing well below market value IMO.

Leonard Little, great example. What team is going to give him any money when he has a habit of getting drunk, driving around and occasionally hitting people?

[junk]

LINK. I read this board and others daily and have never seen money brought up. We all can read between the lines and see he is angling for his next contract but to say the cowboys did him a favor is...................................:laugh2:

Laughable is right. $4.2 million in SB is chump change.

[Clove]

I wish I had the info, but I don't. All I know is that Ellis started for most of the season and then they put Canty and even moved Glover to his spot because they were afraid of teams running on him.

I really disagree with Ellis' griping about the situation. He signed that big contract back at the end of 2003 and the Cowboys have stuck by it and have no reason to not stick by it.

Furthermore, they cut down his snaps which probably has added a year or two to his career. And if they wanted to cut him, he'd be of higher value of teams because he's a pretty good pass rusher who can play in both the 3-4 and the 4-3.

But Ellis and JJT are adamant in believing that Jerry and Bill are going to screw him over.

Go figure.


Rich........Ellis will be traded. But if the world knows he's going to be moved, they won't trade for him. The strategy is to keep teams thinking that Parcells is going to keep Ellis.

[Yakuza Rich]

Leonard Little, great example. What team is going to give him any money when he has a habit of getting drunk, driving around and occasionally hitting people?

The Raiders?


Rich..........

[InmanRoshi]

Leonard Little, great example. What team is going to give him any money when he has a habit of getting drunk, driving around and occasionally hitting people?

We don't know, St.Louis locked him up in a long term deal before we ever found out. He got a five-year, $17.5 million deal with a signing bonus of $5 million coming off a 15 sack season.

[junk]

The Raiders?


Rich..........

Touche.


:lmao2: