You know -for all the things we've done I'm still shocked

[X-Dawg]

we're gonna go with those two stiffs at Center. Are we for real? Both those guys are brutal - flatout brutal.
Did we not watch the films of teams blowing up the middle at Drew and planting him hard? over and over?
You can add 3 TO's and a young Emmitt Smith, it will NOT matter if the Line can't hold the flood back.
I'm very concerned about this area; the main area.

[felix360]

finally someone speaks on this, I really cant see how BP is not doing something about this Position, i remember all those dropped snaps and all those lineman coming and sacking our QB cuz the center can't block.
this needs to fixed. all our other signings dont mean squat if we cant block.

[Jay]

All I hope is that the weight that Johnson is putting on helps him and we see an improvement.

[Murph80]

I wouldn't want to pay Bentley and Mawae what they got. Very overpaid. Faine is seeking a trade but at 293lbs forget it. There is not much out there right now. Be patient something will come up before the start of the season. Also with TO teams will not blitz us like they did last year.

[AdamJT13]

For the record, Parcells said Bledsoe was to blame for the fumbles. And Al Johnson allowed a whopping 1.25 sacks last season. (LeCharles Bentley allowed 2.75.)

Here's a challenge -- identify every sack allowed by our centers last season. If it happened over and over, you should have quite a list.

[SilverStarCowboy]

we're gonna go with those two stiffs at Center. Are we for real? Both those guys are brutal - flatout brutal.
Did we not watch the films of teams blowing up the middle at Drew and planting him hard? over and over?
You can add 3 TO's and a young Emmitt Smith, it will NOT matter if the Line can't hold the flood back.
I'm very concerned about this area; the main area.


If we could find a way to draft Nick Mangold then the Oline wouldbe drastically improved but I'm not sure Bill would start a rookie.

[Displaced Cowboy]

I was really hoping they'd have shown some interest in hartwig but for whatever reason it wasn't there.

I'm very worried about the OL.

[SilverStarCowboy]

For the record, Parcells said Bledsoe was to blame for the fumbles. And Al Johnson allowed a whopping 1.25 sacks last season. (LeCharles Bentley allowed 2.75.)

Here's a challenge -- identify every sack allowed by our centers last season. If it happened over and over, you should have quite a list.

How bout the times where Al was forced into the backfield on running plays? That was Clay Shiver-"esk" and worries me greatly.

[TheEnigma]

we're gonna go with those two stiffs at Center. Are we for real? Both those guys are brutal - flatout brutal.
Did we not watch the films of teams blowing up the middle at Drew and planting him hard? over and over?
You can add 3 TO's and a young Emmitt Smith, it will NOT matter if the Line can't hold the flood back.
I'm very concerned about this area; the main area.

The problem with Al Johnson last year was not pass protection, in fact, as Adam already showed, he is good in pass protection. The problem was his strength in the running game, and I'm willing to give him another offseason to gain some strength.

[AdamJT13]

How bout the times where Al was forced into the backfield on running plays? That was Clay Shiver-"esk" and worries me greatly.

Sure, make that list, too.

[X-Dawg]

For the record, Parcells said Bledsoe was to blame for the fumbles. And Al Johnson allowed a whopping 1.25 sacks last season. (LeCharles Bentley allowed 2.75.)

Here's a challenge -- identify every sack allowed by our centers last season. If it happened over and over, you should have quite a list.
Ummm Do you watch the games or just do CAP charges?

Did you miss the leapfrog of Gurode in the Meltdown at the Meadolands? or am I just making that up - or do you have a stat to combat me on that?

You are aware that the Center calls the line coverage? the Blitz pickup? Do you feel confident in either of these two stiffs to do that when Drew was sacked 50 times?

[2much2soon]

Sure, make that list, too.

Can we count the times he got beat and LA, Rivera or Campbell/Witten kept his sack numbers down by covering for him?

[bobtheflob]

For the record, Parcells said Bledsoe was to blame for the fumbles. And Al Johnson allowed a whopping 1.25 sacks last season. (LeCharles Bentley allowed 2.75.)

Here's a challenge -- identify every sack allowed by our centers last season. If it happened over and over, you should have quite a list.

How often did the Cowboys pass compared to the Saints?

[CrazyCowboy]

I agree.....extremely concerned with our offensive line......guess we are going to draft them all...

[Jaxonsdaddd]

The center position is the most important in the running game as it dictates the runningbacks first cut as long as its a between the tackle play.

I dont know what the "stats" say but I cant think of a single time when the center position got any push.

[jrumann59]

A lot of it was not the fact they were getting killed, much of it was a guy coming free. That leads me to believe it isn't a technique issue as much a line call issue.

[2much2soon]

And to be completely fair we should count QB pressures allowed by the Center position.
That may have been the actual outcome, instead of sacks, of many of the plays where Al Johnson was turned sideways and beaten.

[Juke99]

The entire offensive line is a point of concern.

Adams should be back to full strength but lets not forget, he had one very good season under Parcells..and the next, not so good. Last year, he looked good again.

Kosier, unknown.

The center waltz continues with Johnson and Gurode. I wish we'd just pick one guy and stick with him.

Rivera? Over the hill? Or a bad year because of the injury?

Fabini. Steady. Not great. The thing I like most about Fabini is that maybe he'll give Petitti a chance to develop at a normal pace.

So two positions are new...Everyone on the line will be playing with someone new next to them...and the O Line requires more chemistry than any other group of players.

*fingers crossed*

[AdamJT13]

Ummm Do you watch the games or just do CAP charges?

Do you ask intelligent questions or just dumb ones?

Did you miss the leapfrog of Gurode in the Meltdown at the Meadolands? or am I just making that up - or do you have a stat to combat me on that?

That wasn't a sack, it was a running play.

You are aware that the Center calls the line coverage? the Blitz pickup?

You are aware that the center can't block everyone? That the tackles and guards have to block their guys, too?


Do you feel confident in either of these two stiffs to do that when Drew was sacked 50 times?

I'm confident that Johnson can make the calls.

[ghst187]

For the record, Parcells said Bledsoe was to blame for the fumbles. And Al Johnson allowed a whopping 1.25 sacks last season. (LeCharles Bentley allowed 2.75.)

Here's a challenge -- identify every sack allowed by our centers last season. If it happened over and over, you should have quite a list.

I'm not buying it. Throw in Gurode's blunders into your stats because the original point of the thread was that our C position sucks, not just that AJ sucks. Wasn't it Gurode's blunder that cost us a TD in the second Giants game?
Was it Bledsoe's fault that AJ was tipping the DL off on the snap count for like 3 games in a row?
I don't think that sacks allowed is the only stat, we'd need to add up all the times JJ and MBIII got stuffed because the C missed, whiffed, or just didn't get his block. I think there are a LOT of these.
I overwhelmingly agree with the original post, we're taking a huge risk going into next season with the lumps of coal we have there now. They better be light years better than they were last year.
AJ wasn't strong enough to get his blocks, Gurode didn't know which guy to block, AJ was tipping off the DL to the snap count, Gurode fumbled snaps....not good. Color me concerned about the C position. In fact, I think its the position I'm most worried about going into next season. Also the reason I wanted to pay up for Bentley.

[Cowboy4ever]

As a little defense for the centers..9 out of 10 there is a fumbled snap.. its the qB fault, not the center. The movement of getting the ball back is so routine it happens without thought. I played center for 9 years in my football days and that ball went in the same spot almost everytime. there are the occassional slips when the ball is wet or your hand is sweaty, but honestly, this is movement is so routine now by the pros, that the fumbled snaps are hardly the centers fault.

[sago1]

Center has been my big concern along with other problems on the OL but C is where it all starts, at least in my mind. I never really expected us to pay the money to sign Bentley but I had hoped we could have gone after the 1-2 other Centers who pretty good. When Mawae was cut lose by the Jets, I hoped Cowboys would sign him. He's big an upgrade over Johnson/Gurode but also since he's 35, would hope he could mentor them on how the position is played, leverage, etc., so that 1-2 years down the road maybe one of them would indeed have improved enough to legit starting caliber material. Find it unbelievable that we didn't upgrade. Jerry Jones said he was going to do everything he could to make big push this year. Well, apparently that statement only goes so far. Don't want lay out some real money to sign a kicker, don't want to spent money to sign a Center (even Hartwig, ....). As our OL now stands, we 1 injury away from another disaster. The only way for it to eventually improve is if we still draft an OT in first or 2nd round.

[Mash]

Carter had problems....Vinny had problems.....Bledsoe had problems.....hmmmm?.......

Its pretty obvious that our whole line except Adams when he is concentrating sucks.....its been like that for several years.....

we switched OL coaches......blocking schemes.....etc.....

we still have difficulty in converting a 3rd and 1 and our blitz pickup have been pathetic.

But then again.....practicing our blitz pickups aganst Zims packages doesnt help :)

[X-Dawg]

Do you ask intelligent questions or just dumb ones?



That wasn't a sack, it was a running play.



You are aware that the center can't block everyone? That the tackles and guards have to block their guys, too?




I'm confident that Johnson can make the calls.
You must be related to AL b/c there's no rationale for what you are defending - Al Johnson is not even the starter this season - which is why they brought Gurode back...Tell me - if All were so great -why then was he benched fror AG?!! in the middle of games no less!???
Any stats for that?
You're point on the leapfrog is what exactly? it was the pinnacle of disgrace and everyone knows it - it was embarrassing.

[DallasDW00ds0n]

offseason is far from over

[Billy Bullocks]

Ummm Do you watch the games or just do CAP charges?

Did you miss the leapfrog of Gurode in the Meltdown at the Meadolands? or am I just making that up - or do you have a stat to combat me on that?

You are aware that the Center calls the line coverage? the Blitz pickup? Do you feel confident in either of these two stiffs to do that when Drew was sacked 50 times?

Just because the man knows the cap doesn't mean he doesn't watch the games. Yes Johnson makes the line calls, but is it his fault that someone doesn't pick up their guy? As far as I know, he is very good pre snap, more than adequate in pass blocking...his downfall so far has been his power. He simply doesn't get a push.

Where did he defend Gurode? And you're going to call out 1 play to prove your point?

[dmq]

If Parcells didn't think Al could do the job this season, we would have picked up Mawae. He was there for the taking and would have probably come with a Bill Parcells discount. I think this summer he hits the weights big time because he knows if he doesn't, he is going to lose his job.

[Chocolate Lab]

I'm trying to think of a player who is more hated for less of a reason than Al Johnson...

If Al is the weakest link on our O line, we'll be in good shape this year.

[baj1dallas]

Was it Bledsoe's fault that AJ was tipping the DL off on the snap count for like 3 games in a row?

That doesn't matter anymore since it's been corrected.

[junk]

I'm trying to think of a player who is more hated for less of a reason than Al Johnson...

If Al is the weakest link on our O line, we'll be in good shape this year.

Agreed. I am not even concerned with center at this point. Need to worry about K, OLB, LB depth first. Those are scary positions.

Plus, its Bledsoe. Teams are going to blitz up the middle. Duh. Of course the run game and pass protection is going to struggle when the other teams sends blitzers there all the time.

[TX_Yid]

Watching run after run get stuffed up the middle or in the backfield was brutal last year. Take away all JJ's negative yards because of the pathetic run blocking and the kid probably actually achieved his 1700yd target!!

I thought Center was a lock for getting upgraded in FA, wrong again it seems. I bet I'm not wrong when I say AJ and AG will suck just as bad this season if thats what we go with.

[felix360]

Do you ask intelligent questions or just dumb ones?

Whats with the names i dont see any need to start name calling each other. most of us are grown men, im pretty sure we can debate without having to start putting each other down.:banghead:

[Manster68]

we're gonna go with those two stiffs at Center. Are we for real? Both those guys are brutal - flatout brutal.
Did we not watch the films of teams blowing up the middle at Drew and planting him hard? over and over?
You can add 3 TO's and a young Emmitt Smith, it will NOT matter if the Line can't hold the flood back.
I'm very concerned about this area; the main area.

Just what in the world did you want Bill and Jerry to do?

Break the bank for Bentley (who was determined to go to Cleveland anyway)? All of the money in the world would not have brought him to Dallas.

There just was not anyone out there.

[CowboyWay]

How bout the times where Al was forced into the backfield on running plays? That was Clay Shiver-"esk" and worries me greatly.


I agree, centers don't usually give up many sacks cause they're in so much traffic, but Al Johnson got MANHANDLED in the running game. How many times did we see Julius just touch the ball and BAM, someone laid him out. Johnson was giving up alot of big plays in the running game.

[Cochese]

Center is a worry, but then again, the entire offensive line worries me. Kosier got benched on the freakin Lions, if Riveria is the same stiff he was last year we are dead. I am still not satisfied with this group of players.

[31smackdown]

Since we are discussing ther middle of the line.. does anyone have a scouting report on Faine from Cleveland? Would he be an upgrade somewhere or no?

[peplaw06]

we're gonna go with those two stiffs at Center. Are we for real? Both those guys are brutal - flatout brutal.
Did we not watch the films of teams blowing up the middle at Drew and planting him hard? over and over?
You can add 3 TO's and a young Emmitt Smith, it will NOT matter if the Line can't hold the flood back.
I'm very concerned about this area; the main area.


Insert Yawn Smilie here...

It wouldn't be a Wednesday if X-Dawg wasn't crying "the sky is falling" over something we haven't done two weeks into free agency

[jeff]

I think Al Johnson was BP's first pick as coach. At the time, he said it was because this was one position he didn't want to come back and haunt him.

[Bob Sacamano]

I'm trying to think of a player who is more hated for less of a reason than Al Johnson...

If Al is the weakest link on our O line, we'll be in good shape this year.

:hammer:

[Bob Sacamano]

Would he be an upgrade somewhere or no?

Faine is a former 1st round pick being waved around as trade-bait before his rookie contract is up...do the math

but I'll answer your question anyways...

no

[AdamJT13]

Whats with the names i dont see any need to start name calling each other.

I didn't call him any names. He asked me if I even watch the games, and I told him that's a dumb question.

[AdamJT13]

You must be related to AL b/c there's no rationale for what you are defending - Al Johnson is not even the starter this season - which is why they brought Gurode back...

They brought Gurode back for depth at center and guard. If he miraculously improves a tremendous amount, he might win the starter's job. And if that happens, I'm all for it.

Tell me - if All were so great -why then was he benched fror AG?!! in the middle of games no less!???

Gurode barely got a sniff at center after the middle of the season, when it became apparent that Johnson was playing better. Parcells ditched the rotation experiment (which really was a rotation for only a few games).

Any stats for that?

Of course. For the season, Johnson played 85 percent of the offensive snaps at center, compared to a mere 15 percent for Gurode. Yeah, they certainly thought Gurode was better alright.

[Rumor]

What the hell? Who is the crazy saying Al and Gurode are efficient? As far as Parcells "on the record" statement saying most of those fumbles are Bleds fault well....If I had 2 or 3 275-300 pounders knocking me on my *** I think I would probably drop the ball too. The C is definately a position to watch in fear for next yr.

[Rack Bauer]

Both sides of this are a bit to the extreme. The truth is somewhere in the middle.


Al J isn't as good as Adam seems to be implying, and he certainly isn't as bad as the others here are implying.

I have no problem with his pass blocking or line calls. It's his run blocking that needs a ton of work.


I think eventually Al J will be replaced (by "eventually" I mean a year or two from now), but he's a second round pick and should be given a chance to succeed. If he can greatly improve his run blocking then we'll be fine.


BUt, as others said, there wasn't anything we could really do. I wanted Bentley probably more then anyone here. Not cuz of the way Al played, but because Bentley is already a great Center, and he's actually younger then Al. But he wanted to play for the Browns and they paid him a lot of money to go there. Mawae, at this point, really wouldn't of been much of an upgrade, if at all. He's like 83 years old.

[danny0812]

If we could find a way to draft Nick Mangold then the Oline wouldbe drastically improved but I'm not sure Bill would start a rookie.



petiti was a rookie this year

[AdamJT13]

Al J isn't as good as Adam seems to be implying

What did I imply?

All I said was 1) I'm confident he can make the calls, 2) he allowed only 1.25 sacks last season, 3) he played better than Gurode, and 4) he took 85 percent of the snaps at center last season, compared to 15 percent for Gurode.

Do you disagree with any of those statements?

[Rack Bauer]

What did I imply?

All I said was 1) I'm confident he can make the calls, 2) he allowed only 1.25 sacks last season, 3) he played better than Gurode, and 4) he took 85 percent of the snaps at center last season, compared to 15 percent for Gurode.

Do you disagree with any of those statements?


Settle down, big guy. Just trying to help you kids find a middle ground.


Don't get your thong in a bunch.

[AdamJT13]

Settle down, big guy.

No problem ... pal.

Just trying to help you kids find a middle ground.

Just trying to figure out how you can think I'm implying that Johnson is better than he is. Everything I've said either is a fact, is an option that you agree with, or is an opinion that Parcells obviously agrees with.

Don't get your thong in a bunch.

You're so cool.

[Rack Bauer]

No problem ... pal.

http://www.homespirations.com/DELTA/2005-JULY/Images/Like%20Me.jpg



Just trying to figure out how you can think I'm implying that Johnson is better than he is. Everything I've said either is a fact, is an option that you agree with, or is an opinion that Parcells obviously agrees with.

Oh I dunno... i figured that since you came in here debating against the guy that things AL J sucks, that maybe you didn't agree with him.



You're so cool.


That's cuz I spent my time in school banging chicks instead of doing my math homework.


:D

Just messin' with you, Adam.


Seriously though, I didn't mean to say you think he's good. Just not as bad as that x-man or whatever his name is thinks he is. Like you said, we agree with eachother on this one. Although I think his run blocking could improve about 5 notches and still be below average. But if Mark Stepnoski could play in a power run blocking system at 265 lbs then so can Al Johnson, theoretically. :confused:


If we could only stick Gurode and Al in that machine from The Fly, and use the person that comes out the other end as our center.

[Scotman]

AJ is still a relatively young player. So is Gurode. Linemen take years to develop. I think AJ is going to be very good before it's all said and done.

How much did Stepnoski weigh? It is not mearly a weight issue, as is being implied. A lot of it is technique. AJ is a smart player and is still learning. He may not bulk up a lot more, but he may not need to. I think we are OK at this position.

My bigger concerns lie in the guard positions and the future at both tackle spots. I don't think we are done with the lines but I personally think we are done at center.

[ravidubey]

Mark Stepnoski was the weakest link on the Cowboys' 92-94 lines. He did not play with power and was only better than adequate at pass blocking because of his blitz protection. I was 100 feet away watching Jason Buck just blast him backwards into Troy in that RFK endzone.

He was a finesse player on a power OL and a backup replaced him with no perceivable dropoff in OL performance in the 1993 playoffs.

1995 showed what a difference a "real" center could make when Ray Donaldson dominated the spot until Thanksgiving. I'll argue that the Cowboys' offense has never been the same since the moment he dropped. When he was there and even before with a young Stepnoski the Cowboys could dictate up the middle.

Shiver was horrid, and Stepnoski in his later years was a shadow of his former self, and we hit a Shiver-esque lowpoint with Tyson Walter, Ben Fricke, and DiNapoli.

The past two seasons we've surfaced, but we are treading water. If it wasn't for such a pressing need at RT there would have been more of an uproar regarding Center, I think.

Maybe we can't afford to improve that spot with two former #2 picks invested in it, but how many years does Drew Bledsoe have left before we have to rebuild anyway?