Kiper getting owned... LOL

[metalichris]

I was looking for the Kiper mock draft that just hit ESPN today and came across this.

http://www.slate.com/id/104163/

BTW...did anyone catch it? I just missed him telling who Dallas was going to draft. He's probably wrong, but I am curious.

[Hiero]

Dallas is gonna draft jason allen in thefirst my ***. what aloser, this guy is the most unreliable source on the web.

[peppersquad]

Goose really is THE best in the business.

[Clove]

He's in the same boat with Tv and Radio personalities trying to influence fans to agree with their stupid opinions. Luckily fans are smarter than that.

[Jimz31]

Goose really is THE best in the business.
Has he come out with a mock yet? I haven't been paying much attention to the mock drafts yet.

[MONT17]

anyone have a feeling Jerry will trade up? there r true playmakers that could fall to 10... I know trading down is JERRYs thing but to add a player like VD to this O would be a once in alife time shot!!!


as far as Kiper his complete bashing of Q CARTER caused Jerry and the Boys to be the laughing stock of the NFL... and most casual Cowboy fans bought every word he said and the backlash of his draft status! I'm not saying CARTER was great but he was better than people gave him crdit... and should have been looked at as the BACKUP who can win games and not the guy who is the FUTURE!!!

[BHendri5]

Years ago Kiper proved to me he was a bum and do not know what he is talking about. He does and did all that research on the athletes, that stuff means nothing. Stats, can not give you a good reading on a players heart and his mental state, (attitude).

There are so many athletes that comes thru the draft, yes, Kiper will hit right on some, but if you had in the past or even now listen to him he misses more than he hits on the really big names in the draft. Now days he backtracks when he is wrong.

The first time I noticed he was a bunch of empty research and talk, was in the 89 draft, then he missed a lot in the 90, the draft when Bledsoe and Mirer came out, Leaf and Manning, I laugh now everytime he speaks.

I wish I could go head to head with him and his research, all I would need to do is watch film. We could pick 20,30, 40,50, players and go head to head, him with his research and me just from watching film.

I know I would spank.

[jksmith269]

After two days of waiting, Stith was selected by the Jacksonville Jaguars with the 243rd pick overall. He now earns the NFL's minimum salary and spends most of his time on the bench. He lost, at the very least, a shot at a college degree and possibly the chance to improve both his draft position and the size of his contract. In a post-draft chat on ESPN.com, despite having overestimated the NFL's interest in Stith by nearly 200 picks, Kiper was unmoved: "Everybody has to be held responsible for their own decisions." Everybody, that is, except Mel Kiper.

The statement in bold is a flat out lie. Many, many players who come out early return to get their degree, and I really doubt any player puts too much stock in mock drafts or guides. The only person they normally listen to is family and sadly their agents who over hype the player.

I Don't care for Kipers "big board" but he's doing what he's paid to do, and he shouldn't be blamed for any player being drafted where they are nor should he receive credit if a player is taken b4 he should be taken.

[CrazyCowboy]

Who the heck is Mel Kiper Jr. anyway?

[Hostile]

anyone have a feeling Jerry will trade up? there r true playmakers that could fall to 10... I know trading down is JERRYs thing but to add a player like VD to this O would be a once in alife time shot!!!


as far as Kiper his complete bashing of Q CARTER caused Jerry and the Boys to be the laughing stock of the NFL... and most casual Cowboy fans bought every word he said and the backlash of his draft status! I'm not saying CARTER was great but he was better than people gave him crdit... and should have been looked at as the BACKUP who can win games and not the guy who is the FUTURE!!!No offense, but Kiper did not cause that. Every media person who reports on the Draft, independant of Mel Kiper, panned that selection as a reach and a bad move. Kiper said it on TV and most of them saw it, but believe it or not, these guys do think for themselves. Furthermore, he was right (they all were), so he should be acknowledged for that, not panned.

[big dog cowboy]

Actually Bryan Curtis (the writer) has this all wrong. Kiper hates to put out mock drafts. He is into information gathering and ranking players. ESPN put the pressure on him to come up with his mocks. He admits he isn't great at them either.

Kiper does a pretty decent job and is better than this writer portrays him. Rick Gosselin is the best at mock drafts that is true. It really isn't fair to compare the two because they don't specialize in the same thing.

[Cajuncowboy]

I'm sorry, but Joel Buchbaum (sp) was the best. Kiper couldn't carry Joel's eraser. I miss Joel Reports.:(

[BrAinPaiNt]

Mandarich...nuff said.:D

[big dog cowboy]

I'm sorry, but Joel Buchbaum (sp) was the best. Kiper couldn't carry Joel's eraser. I miss Joel Reports.:(
Well that is true. I almost always bought his draft preview. I miss his reports also.

[Cowboys&Caps]

honestly though who needed this article to know that Kiper isn't very good?

We all know he stinks

[big dog cowboy]

honestly though who needed this article to know that Kiper isn't very good?

We all know he stinks
He doesn't stink. He isn't perfect but he is pretty good at what he does.

[conner01]

to give credit where credit is due. kiper is a big reason why the draft is no longer done in privet and the fans hear about it the next day. he is a big part of turning the event into what it is. there is a difference in a mock like goose does that is what he thinks teams "will" do, and what kiper does and list what he thinks teams should do.he is wrong alot like most others but he has been a huge part of turning the draft into a super event

[Hostile]

He doesn't stink. He isn't perfect but he is pretty good at what he does.I agree. I'm not looking for any "draftnik" to tell me with 100% accuracy who is going where.

I'm looking for someone who can tell me the positives and negatives of a player and give me a fairly reasonable sense of his worth.

[big dog cowboy]

I agree. I'm not looking for any "draftnik" to tell me with 100% accuracy who is going where.

I'm looking for someone who can tell me the positives and negatives of a player and give me a fairly reasonable sense of his worth.
That is what Kiper can do. And he is good at it.

His mocks (again not his speciality) are usually wrong after some of the obvious top picks.

Side note: I'll take Kiper any day over Joey T. I hope he isn't on ESPN's draft coverage team this year.

[theogt]

He doesn't stink. He isn't perfect but he is pretty good at what he does.He may not stink but he's overrated. He's overrated in that most casual fans think he's THE source for draft info. Perhaps that was true a decade ago, but not today.

[Hostile]

He may not stink but he's overrated. He's overrated in that most casual fans think he's THE source for draft info. Perhaps that was true a decade ago, but not today.Everyone who is successful in what they do is "over rated." It's called jealousy that someone else is noticed for taking risks.

[theogt]

Everyone who is successful in what they do is "over rated." It's called jealousy that someone else is noticed for taking risks.No, not at all. His name is almost synonymous with NFL draft. To die hards like us, he's just another source, but I'd bet if you asked casual fans to name a mock draft, Kiper's would be the only one named. THAT is being overrated. It has nothing to do with taking risks. Hell, virtually every sport's media source does that.

[Erik_H]

to give credit where credit is due. kiper is a big reason why the draft is no longer done in privet and the fans hear about it the next day. he is a big part of turning the event into what it is. there is a difference in a mock like goose does that is what he thinks teams "will" do, and what kiper does and list what he thinks teams should do.he is wrong alot like most others but he has been a huge part of turning the draft into a super event
I agree completely.

The writer of this article seems to be missing the point completely IMO. Kiper and Gosselin have two different jobs.

Gosselin is a reporter. It is his job to dig around and get information from teams and other sources in order to try to predict what the the team would do. We may forget this with all the opinions reporter inject into their stories these days, but a journalists job is supposed to be gathering information and passing it on to the masses. It's about being factually correct (or in the case of the Draft...as factually correct as the inevitable smokescreens and innuendo will allow)

Kiper, on the other hand, is not a reporter. He's not supposed to be a reporter and he has never claimed to be a reporter. He basically invented his job, and in the process, played a major role in increasing the popularity of the NFL draft over the years. He obviously worked his butt off for a long time to create his own (rather substantial) niche in the world. I have to respect that.

In the past, I've been pretty critical of Kiper. Mainly because I didn't initially see what he's done for the sport overall. For Kiper, it's not about being right. It's about 'acting' like he's right in order to generate debate and interest amongst fans. It's about raising the awareness and excitement level of fans about new players coming into the league (i.e. hype). That interest then generates money. Money for him, money for ESPN, money for the NFL. That's one hell of a success story if you ask me.

Tell me that the other major sports wouldn't want something like that? As an example, imagine the NBA was able to hype 15 LeBron James's a year.
They would love to generate that kind of interest in that many young players a year.

About the player who was drafted much later than Kiper projected? All I can say is "Boo-frikken Hoo." Total BS. The guy gets paid 300K+ for a year or two. That's more than he'd make in the real world in a lifetime. I doubt a degree in basket-weaving would have netted him 1/8th as much. Each person is responsible for making their own decisions. This is just another example of placing the blame on others...again. Let's see this guy sue Kiper now. I wouldn't be all that surprised. :rolleyes:

Funny thing is. I don't even like Kiper much. But I have to give credit where credit is due. He almost single-handidly fabricated a highly successful career out of what was initially nothing, and developed a whole new market in the process.

[Pabst]

I enjoy Kiper during the draft. I think he's a good "TV" guy. That being said, I take his mock drafts and predictions with a grain of salt, as well as his "Best Player Available" tab during the actual draft telecast.

[Reigle9]

While Mel Kiper is not the best, he is still one of the best. People have pointed out how Mock's weren't his specialty, but he's still good at them. This is not an opinon, it is fact. Anyone with a keybaord can say "he sucks", I think that is so annoying. Here is a link of the Mock Drafts and Top 100 list, and how they've done. Overall, Gosselin and Kiper are the two of the top three if you combine the top 100 and the Mock Draft. NFL Draft countdown might be better than either one of them. http://www.thehuddlereport.com/top100/index.shtml

[jem88]

He may not stink but he's overrated. He's overrated in that most casual fans think he's THE source for draft info. Perhaps that was true a decade ago, but not today.
For me, that's a bigger indictment of the 'casual fans' than it is of Kiper. Fans interested in the draft should take the time to research multiple sources and come to their own conclusions, which is really where the whole fun of the draft is to be found: trying to guess who your team is going to pick. Personally, I find Kiper funny to look at, but I do like his approach to the whole thing.

[Hostile]

No, not at all. His name is almost synonymous with NFL draft. To die hards like us, he's just another source, but I'd bet if you asked casual fans to name a mock draft, Kiper's would be the only one named. THAT is being overrated. It has nothing to do with taking risks. Hell, virtually every sport's media source does that.You just made my point for me with that statement.

[theogt]

You just made my point for me with that statement.No, I didn't. That statement says that he's overrated. Are you drunk this early on a Saturday? The statement is descriptive, not normative.

[doomsday81]

Years ago Kiper proved to me he was a bum and do not know what he is talking about. He does and did all that research on the athletes, that stuff means nothing. Stats, can not give you a good reading on a players heart and his mental state, (attitude).

There are so many athletes that comes thru the draft, yes, Kiper will hit right on some, but if you had in the past or even now listen to him he misses more than he hits on the really big names in the draft. Now days he backtracks when he is wrong.

The first time I noticed he was a bunch of empty research and talk, was in the 89 draft, then he missed a lot in the 90, the draft when Bledsoe and Mirer came out, Leaf and Manning, I laugh now everytime he speaks.

I wish I could go head to head with him and his research, all I would need to do is watch film. We could pick 20,30, 40,50, players and go head to head, him with his research and me just from watching film.

I know I would spank.

Kiper had Mirer ranked as the 63 best player in that draft. Listen, people hate Kiper because he dropped out of school, got lucky and got rich for doing something we all wish we could do. He does hit more than people give him credit for like when he said a WR named Jimmy Smith would be a future Pro Bowler. I love how people forget that one. Fans hate Kiper because they wish they had his job. Plain and simple. What does Goose bring to the table? You should hear all the stupid questions he asked at the Combine. "You broke your index finger in high school, is that correct?" "You blocked a put once in your college career. Where did you line up?" I think Goose has more inside info than Kiper because he talks to teams but Kiper never claimed to have inside info. He just gives you his thougts on players. As far as measuring heart, who the hell can do that? Bill Parcells can measure heart? That's news to me. If you could measure heart than LenDale White is a sixth round pick. How about that? Listen, the guy is rich and famous and helped build the draft into what it is today. I tip my hat to him. Anyone can post meaningless messages on a message board but not everyone can start up a business like Kiper did and become the face of the NFL Draft. Big difference there.

[Hostile]

No, I didn't. That statement says that he's overrated. Are you drunk this early on a Saturday? The statement is descriptive, not normative.I've never been drunk a day in my life. Thanks for asking.

Kiper started from nothing, took risks, succeeded, and in your own words has become "synonymous with the Draft." I don't call that overrated, I call that enviable. Hence the jealousy and the label.

[Erik_H]

I've never been drunk a day in my life. Thanks for asking.

Kiper started from nothing, took risks, succeeded, and in your own words has become "synonymous with the Draft." I don't call that overrated, I call that enviable. Hence the jealousy and the label.
:hammer:

Quite a bit more concise than my post.

[theogt]

I've never been drunk a day in my life. Thanks for asking.

Kiper started from nothing, took risks, succeeded, and in your own words has become "synonymous with the Draft." I don't call that overrated, I call that enviable. Hence the jealousy and the label.It is certainly an accomplishment, and certainly something to be enviable about. That said, there are other draft experts that have just as much success and are just as accurate that do not get the same credit. THAT, my sober friend, is being overrated.

[Hostile]

It is certainly an accomplishment, and certainly something to be enviable about. That said, there are other draft experts that have just as much success and are just as accurate that do not get the same credit. THAT, my sober friend, is being overrated.Have you ever seen the movie "Iron Will?" It's about a dog sled race. Good movie.

There's a scene where Will has to lead his dogs up a steep incline. The other teams use the path he has carved out.

I'm not saying that Kiper carved the paths and others are benefitting from it, but they are more known by the draft followers because of the path he carved.

Kiper made himself an institution. That isn't about being overrated. That's about being successful. As soon as someone is, someone else will think they can do it better and follow suit. Some can do it better, but they rarely achieve the accolades or recognition of the original.That's reality.

In the minds of many, being over rated means being recognized. I don't agree. That's envy talking.

[theogt]

Perhaps he paved the way for draft experts. As I understood the article, that's not what the criticism is about. The article was about his current efficiency. In that respect I think it's a pretty safe bet to say he's overrated.

[Hostile]

Perhaps he paved the way for draft experts. As I understood the article, that's not what the criticism is about. The article was about his current efficiency. In that respect I think it's a pretty safe bet to say he's overrated.The article fails to recognize the main difference between Gosselin and Kiper. (I prefer Gosselin by the way.) Gosselin projects draft picks and Kiper doesn't. His service is nothing more than a biography of the prospects and their potential worth to the team that acquires them. On this he does a decent job and is recognized for it. Nothing more. If Gosselin left his sportswriter job to do what Kiper does I think he could do it better. That doesn't mean anything at thsi point since they have different aims with what they do.

[theogt]

The article fails to recognize the main difference between Gosselin and Kiper. (I prefer Gosselin by the way.) Gosselin projects draft picks and Kiper doesn't. His service is nothing more than a biography of the prospects and their potential worth to the team that acquires them. On this he does a decent job and is recognized for it. Nothing more. If Gosselin left his sportswriter job to do what Kiper does I think he could do it better. That doesn't mean anything at thsi point since they have different aims with what they do.It was a bad argument by the article to point that Kiper's big board doesn't match up with teams' picks very often. His board isn't intended to match picks with teams. It's just a BPA ranking.

[jterrell]

Kiper irks me in that he switches his rankings so freely AFTER a guy has played 3 or 4 years of football. Are you really telling me after watching a senior WR in 05 in ten games on tape you don't know about his QB priot to the end of 06?

Seriously, you either go the way of Gosselin and try to rank based on scout and team opinions or you just make it personal preference and with personal preference there shouldn't be endless jockeying for position that ends up with guys he thought was a top 10 prospect after the Bowl season as a 3rd round pick in his own mind by draft day.

Scouts don't change their opinion on a guy's talent by much. They know his skill level and provided he is injury free they are gonna stick to their assessments. If Kiper did that I'd have a ton more respect for the guy.

All that said Kiper is in the entertainment business now. He's not a scout or a draft guru. He's a draft talking head and I think we all know it so it shouldn't get to us.

[Randy White]

Actually Bryan Curtis (the writer) has this all wrong. Kiper hates to put out mock drafts. He is into information gathering and ranking players. ESPN put the pressure on him to come up with his mocks. He admits he isn't great at them either.

Bingo. That's exactly right.

Kiper does a pretty decent job and is better than this writer portrays him. Rick Gosselin is the best at mock drafts that is true. It really isn't fair to compare the two because they don't specialize in the same thing.

Ric Gosselin does what a good reporter does: passes on information that he collects from sources. Gosselin doesn't know who's the more talented player, what are the negatives or positives of a player, and in most cases, doesn't even know what a player did in college. Most of the things that Gosselin reports is what he's heard from the people that are in the business. That's his job and he's good at it.

Mel Kiper's job is to give his opinion on a player and what the player is " capable " of becoming based on his research.

They are two completely different things.

Let me put it another way, in terms of broadcasting: Gooselin would be the play by play announcer while Kiper would be the color/analyst comentator.

:starspin

[Hostile]

It was a bad argument by the article to point that Kiper's big board doesn't match up with teams' picks very often. His board isn't intended to match picks with teams. It's just a BPA ranking.Exactly what I said, his isn't a mock draft. It's a value board. They don't provide similar information.

[theogt]

Exactly what I said, his isn't a mock draft. It's a value board. They don't provide similar information.Perhaps I should have emphasized "was". I was agreeing with you. Imagine someone saying "Yeah, it WAS a bad argument..."

Damn internet.

[VThokie7]

Dallas is gonna draft jason allen in thefirst my ***. what aloser, this guy is the most unreliable source on the web.

Well considering Allen was easily a first round pick before his injury this year and now that hes proved hes healthy with his combine I don't see how that is a out there pick. Allen has been moving up the boards as he should. You act like there is no way Dallas will take a FS in the first. The one thing I think people are over looking is the salary for a mid-late 1st round pick isn't nearly as much as were paying Roy and Newman. Look at Ed Reed's rookie contract. If we end up with a FS i'll be glad we finally fixed our biggest liability in the secondary

[Uh-Oh]

Kiper's right. About the NY Jets anyway.

Look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZxNeFLuY98&search=Jets%20Draft

[theogt]

Kiper's right. About the NY Jets anyway.

Look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZxNeFLuY98&search=Jets%20DraftHilarious. I love those draft reaction clips. Thanks for posting.

[Chief]

Kiper had Mirer ranked as the 63 best player in that draft. Listen, people hate Kiper because he dropped out of school, got lucky and got rich for doing something we all wish we could do. He does hit more than people give him credit for like when he said a WR named Jimmy Smith would be a future Pro Bowler. I love how people forget that one. Fans hate Kiper because they wish they had his job. Plain and simple.

Listen, the guy is rich and famous and helped build the draft into what it is today. I tip my hat to him. Anyone can post meaningless messages on a message board but not everyone can start up a business like Kiper did and become the face of the NFL Draft. Big difference there.

Great stuff.

You and Hos are spot on.

[Woods]

Kiper had Mirer ranked as the 63 best player in that draft. Listen, people hate Kiper because he dropped out of school, got lucky and got rich for doing something we all wish we could do. He does hit more than people give him credit for like when he said a WR named Jimmy Smith would be a future Pro Bowler. I love how people forget that one. Fans hate Kiper because they wish they had his job. Plain and simple. What does Goose bring to the table? You should hear all the stupid questions he asked at the Combine. "You broke your index finger in high school, is that correct?" "You blocked a put once in your college career. Where did you line up?" I think Goose has more inside info than Kiper because he talks to teams but Kiper never claimed to have inside info. He just gives you his thougts on players. As far as measuring heart, who the hell can do that? Bill Parcells can measure heart? That's news to me. If you could measure heart than LenDale White is a sixth round pick. How about that? Listen, the guy is rich and famous and helped build the draft into what it is today. I tip my hat to him. Anyone can post meaningless messages on a message board but not everyone can start up a business like Kiper did and become the face of the NFL Draft. Big difference there.


Very well said.

Kiper started a business from virtually nothing, and now he's an INSTITUTION. It takes a lot of courage to take risk.

And yes, I WISH I could earn millions doing what Kiper does - as do many football buffs. Kiper's got a great job and probably even a better cash flow.

[LaTunaNostra]

I'm sorry, but Joel Buchbaum (sp) was the best. Kiper couldn't carry Joel's eraser. I miss Joel Reports.:(
Yeah, Cajun! Buschbaum rocked..so much so that Bill Belichick more than once tried to get Joel to sign as a scout.

As much as his incredibly detailed research and analysis, I appreciated his nerdy, attention-deficit style...reticent to the point of seclusion..it was always about the game, never about himself.

RIP, JB.

[Doomsday]

Its alot easier to put out one Mock draft the day before the draft than it is to be one fo the first.

[jem88]

Great stuff.

You and Hos are spot on.... as is Jem88.

[JIGGYFLY]

Yeah, Cajun! Buschbaum rocked..so much so that Bill Belichick more than once tried to get Joel to sign as a scout.

As much as his incredibly detailed research and analysis, I appreciated his nerdy, attention-deficit style...reticent to the point of seclusion..it was always about the game, never about himself.

RIP, JB.
Glad to see you back on the board, your insightful post have been sincerley missed.:)

[TruBlueCowboy]

Yeah, Cajun! Buschbaum rocked..so much so that Bill Belichick more than once tried to get Joel to sign as a scout.

As much as his incredibly detailed research and analysis, I appreciated his nerdy, attention-deficit style...reticent to the point of seclusion..it was always about the game, never about himself.

RIP, JB.


Joel Buschbaum lives on in the memory AdamJT13. :p:

I say that as a sincere compliment. If there's anyone I could picture taking his own video collection and becoming one of the biggest draft gurus in publication, it's Adam.

[Uh-Oh]

Hilarious. I love those draft reaction clips. Thanks for posting.
It's really something where the fans know more than the GM isn't it?

[Hostile]

It's really something where the fans know more than the GM isn't it?I don't mean to sound flip about this, but there are times when I do feel some fans know more about certain subjects than the actual guys sitting in the GM chairs.

I think there are some fans on this site (and some others I read) who are extremely knowledgable. At times the GMs guess or analyze wrong, and these fans guess or analyze right.

That doesn't necessarily mean I think these fans would make good GMs. I'm not saying that at all. I think it folly to discard their opinions simply because they aren't GMs though.

Knowledge is valuable and there are knowledgable football fans on this site (and others). Maybe the value to me is just that they share their knowledge. Maybe it's that they can teach me something new and great about the game or the workings of it.

[big dog cowboy]

Kiper's right. About the NY Jets anyway.

Look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZxNeFLuY98&search=Jets%20Draft
I seriously have tears running down my face after watching that three times in a row. :lmao:

[Uh-Oh]

I don't mean to sound flip about this, but there are times when I do feel some fans know more about certain subjects than the actual guys sitting in the GM chairs.

I think there are some fans on this site (and some others I read) who are extremely knowledgable. At times the GMs guess or analyze wrong, and these fans guess or analyze right.

That doesn't necessarily mean I think these fans would make good GMs. I'm not saying that at all. I think it folly to discard their opinions simply because they aren't GMs though.

Knowledge is valuable and there are knowledgable football fans on this site (and others). Maybe the value to me is just that they share their knowledge. Maybe it's that they can teach me something new and great about the game or the workings of it.
Not flippant at all. Well said in fact.

I think fans are also more forgiving of things like Wonderlic scores. How many teams passed on Dan Marino because of his 14? Yet someone who was thought to be too stupid to succeed in the NFL, did in fact succeed. He may not have won a Championship, but he always gave his team a shot at the playoffs.

The fans just knew he was better than Ken O'Brien based on his play and talent. But the GM who has to pay this guy thought it was too risky.

[Hostile]

Not flippant at all. Well said in fact.

I think fans are also more forgiving of things like Wonderlic scores. How many teams passed on Dan Marino because of his 14? Yet someone who was thought to be too stupid to succeed in the NFL, did in fact succeed. He may not have won a Championship, but he always gave his team a shot at the playoffs.

The fans just knew he was better than Ken O'Brien based on his play and talent. But the GM who has to pay this guy thought it was too risky.You have to think of it from where they sit? How many millions of dollars are riding upon the decisions they have to make?

From where we all sit analyzing stuff it's relatively antiseptic. It affects us but it can't infect us if you will. Truth be told the scouting department in Dallas impresses me a lot. I couldn't have passed up Jason Witten when he was there in the 2nd round a few years ago. They knew something and ended up with an absolute steal taking him in the 3rd.

The advantage they have is the full skinny of what teams are looking for around them.

All in all, it's a very impressive process that is easy to admire.