Vela's Blog - OLB Analysis

[austintodallas]

Some nice analysis here from one of Vela's sources regarding Wimbley vs. Lawson vs. Carpenter...

http://theboysblog.com/

[Duane]

– I pressed him for a little more info on the top four OLB prospects after A.J. Hawk and he gave me this:

* of Chad Greenway, he said, “I don’t think he can play effectively in a 3-4. He can run, but every tackle I saw him make, he was unblocked. There’s a huge difference in watching his tape versus watching A.J. Hawk’s tape. Hawk is throwing people around, getting through guards and getting into the backfield and you don’t see that from Greenway. If you put him in a scheme that protects him, I think he could be sucessful, but not in a 3-4.”
* he thought Kamerion Wimbley might be the most overrated of the bunch, saying he’s wary of players who make a sudden rise in the offseason. He’s doesn’t think Wimbley is a bad player, but he’s surprised to see him rated as high as 12th on some mock draft boards;
* he thinks Manny Lawson can be a good player, but says it’s hard to assess him because he played end opposite Mario Williams. “I tried to track how often Lawson and Williams both got to the quarterback and it’s a lot. But Williams was usually beating double and triple teams and Lawson was beating one guy.” He says Lawson has real speed, but could have a steep learning curve. “Most of the time, he was beating guys with raw speed around the corner,” he said. “That won’t work against NFL tackles. He’ll have to develop some moves to get sacks. I’m not saying Lawson won’t or can’t, but he doesn’t have that repertoire right now.”
* of Bobby Carpenter, he said, “none of the linebackers I’ve seen on tape closes faster from ten yards than this guy.” He also thinks that right now, Carpenter is the best pass rusher of this bunch.

When I pressed him for a prediction on Dallas’ pick, he said OLB remains his top guess, but he won’t discount a defensive back now, simply because that’s where the value is at 18. He thinks teams like San Diego, Kansas City and even New England will take D-backs right after Dallas.

[austintodallas]

Thanks for transcribing Duane...that site doesn't let me copy and paste.

[Rockytop6]

Thanks for transcribing Duane...that site doesn't let me copy and paste.

I sure hope we get Carpenter.

[MichaelWinicki]

I'm becoming less enchanted with Lawson.

I've never been big on Wimbley. To me he's a "speed" guy with little else.

[big dog cowboy]

I sure hope we get Carpenter.
Me to but I'd like him better in the 22-25 range.

[RCowboyFan]

[QUOTE=Duane
* of Bobby Carpenter, he said, “none of the linebackers I’ve seen on tape closes faster from ten yards than this guy.” He also thinks that right now, Carpenter is the best pass rusher of this bunch.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with that statment, from the highlight cuts I saw, he seems to have that quickness to the QB, that none of the other guys seem to have. Wimbley had some, but Manny Lawson, I have real concerns if he will be a good LB that can take on Blockers ala Ware did.

[austintodallas]

Me to but I'd like him better in the 22-25 range.He won't be there. Pats will be all over him.

[Big Country]

Me to but I'd like him better in the 22-25 range.


Don't matter where we get him as long as we get him IMO... Hawk is the top LB no doubt (top 5 pick), but if it weren't for Carpenter's leg injury he wouldn't be behind Hawk much at all, maybe even in the top 10. That's why when Carpenter heals, the draft ranking is moot, because Carpenter is going to be that good... I just know it.

:bow:

[Alexander]

Hawk is the top LB no doubt (top 5 pick), but if it weren't for Carpenter's leg injury he wouldn't be behind Hawk much at all

Oh goodness.

I like Carpenter, but lets get real here.

[TruBlueCowboy]

I'm becoming less enchanted with Lawson.

I've never been big on Wimbley. To me he's a "speed" guy with little else.

I'm slowly starting to get won over by the Carpenter side myself. The more I read as draft day nears, the more I like him. Darnit, time to get a new sig. :mad:

[Woods]

I'm slowly starting to get won over by the Carpenter side myself. The more I read as draft day nears, the more I like him. Darnit, time to get a new sig. :mad:


Ha ha, I think quite a few of us our now joining the Carpenter bandwagon and slowly getting off the Lawson bandwagon as our first choice at OLB.

I'm still trying to decide between Wimbley and Carpenter, though.

[Duane]

The thing about Carpenter that I like is that while he might not be a super star we're almost guaranteed to get a solid player for years to come. I hear a lot of Bruski/Vrable comparisons and we couldn't ask for a better complement to Ware than a player like that.

[burmafrd]

If we think we can get a steady 6-8 sacks and an equal number of pressures a year from Carpenter then I would be very happy indeed. He is the polished product no doubt; experience at a big time program for mulitple years; and is the son of a BP player. Lawson and Wimberly are the potentials; Lawson especially with that height and speed- possibly another Ted Hendricks; batting down balls and using those long arms to grab people. BUT that is potential- have not seenhim do it in college so the question has to be: can he gain enough weight and strength to do it without losing that speed and quickness that he has now?

[MiStar]

I also wondered why Wimbley wasn't a bigger name before the offseason. I didn't watch FSU very much this year, but the highlight tape that I've seen of him is very impressive. To be honest, I think he's a better prospect on highlight film than Merriman or Ware. However, I agree with his assesment on Carpenter and Lawson, so maybe there is something to his assertion that Wimbley is overrated.

[theogt]

Ha ha, I think quite a few of us our now joining the Carpenter bandwagon and slowly getting off the Lawson bandwagon as our first choice at OLB.

I'm still trying to decide between Wimbley and Carpenter, though.Why? Sheer fickleness?

[MichaelWinicki]

Why? Sheer fickleness?

Maybe it's because he's not as good a match for our system...

[theogt]

Maybe it's because he's not as good a match for our system...But since he's a great match for our system this can't be the answer. :rolleyes:

[MichaelWinicki]

But since he's a great match for our system this can't be the answer. :rolleyes:

You says he is?

I don't follow the point.

If we didn't have Ware you could make an argument for the guy. But we need a "Carl Banks" type and not another "LT" type. Carpenter is much more like Banks. A solid all around LB.

[theogt]

You says he is?

I don't follow the point.

If we didn't have Ware you could make an argument for the guy. But we need a "Carl Banks" type and not another "LT" type. Carpenter is much more like Banks. A solid all around LB.Lawson is strong and can stand up against the run. He's got the speed to be great in coverage and is far and away the best pass-rusher. It's a clear choice at 18 between Carp and Lawson. The only question is whether its more valuable to trade down to get Carp. That may be more valuable, but saying Lawson isn't a good fit here doesn't make sense to me.

[Woods]

Why? Sheer fickleness?

Firstly, I still like the player.

But I'm coming to the conclusion that if we are looking to plug someone into the OLB spot from Day 1, Lawson is going to take some time to get comfortable at that position, possibly 1-2 years.

On the other hand, Carpenter should be able to step in much, much sooner. In fact, on Day 1.

That said, Lawson's athletic ability is off the charts. However, I think his adjustment time is going to be longer than a player like Carpenter as well.

I'm not against taking Lawson by any means and will be happy if we draft him. But Carpenter is probably the quicker fix and less of an uncertainty.

I think if Lawson was taking Ware's position, I would be more comfortable with the adjustment period. But I don't think we're permanently moving Ware. That would give us 2 LBs who are trying to get used to their assignments in the 3-4, which could be a recipe for disaster.

[TruBlueCowboy]

Firstly, I still like the player.

But I'm coming to the conclusion that if we are looking to plug someone into the OLB spot from Day 1, Lawson is going to take some time to get comfortable at that position, possibly 1-2 years.

On the other hand, Carpenter should be able to step in much, much sooner. In fact, on Day 1.

That said, Lawson's athletic ability is off the charts. However, I think his adjustment time is going to be longer than a player like Carpenter as well.

I'm not against taking Lawson by any means and will be happy if we draft him. But Carpenter is probably the quicker fix and less of an uncertainty.

I think if Lawson was taking Ware's position, I would be more comfortable with the adjustment period. But I don't think we're permanently moving Ware. That would give us 2 LBs who are trying to get used to their assignments in the 3-4, which could be a recipe for disaster.

Another thing I think the Cowboys could do is draft Wimbley and play him like the Ravens did Suggs. Put him in a lot of obvious pass rush situations and still give Singleton a lot of time on the field. Slowly let him learn the defense until he's getting starter minutes.

It's a tough call, I honestly think I'd be happy with all three.

[Doomsday101]

Firstly, I still like the player.

But I'm coming to the conclusion that if we are looking to plug someone into the OLB spot from Day 1, Lawson is going to take some time to get comfortable at that position, possibly 1-2 years.

On the other hand, Carpenter should be able to step in much, much sooner. In fact, on Day 1.

That said, Lawson's athletic ability is off the charts. However, I think his adjustment time is going to be longer than a player like Carpenter as well.

I'm not against taking Lawson by any means and will be happy if we draft him. But Carpenter is probably the quicker fix and less of an uncertainty.

I think if Lawson was taking Ware's position, I would be more comfortable with the adjustment period. But I don't think we're permanently moving Ware. That would give us 2 LBs who are trying to get used to their assignments in the 3-4, which could be a recipe for disaster.

I agree. Should Dallas get Lawson I would not be disappointed but I think between Lawson and Carpenter I take the true OLB over another project learning a new position and the responsibilities that come with the job. Also as you mentioned having a player currently trying to make the adjustment makes getting Lawson an even more of a gamble

[speedkilz88]

You look for quick fixes in free agency, not the draft. In the draft, you take the best player.

[Woods]

Another thing I think the Cowboys could do is draft Wimbley and play him like the Ravens did Suggs. Put him in a lot of obvious pass rush situations and still give Singleton a lot of time on the field. Slowly let him learn the defense until he's getting starter minutes.

It's a tough call, I honestly think I'd be happy with all three.

Yes, that's also an alternative.

I guess at the end of the day it depends on how easily BP/Ireland believe that Lawson and Wembley can make the transition to OLB. And the main question here would be do they have the necessary instincts? We all know they have the athletic ability.

And with respect to instincts, I have no idea.

[Doomsday101]

You look for quick fixes in free agency, not the draft. In the draft, you take the best player.

There is no consensus out there saying Lawson is the BPA and in the draft taking the BPA that fits a need make more sense and if you notice every team does it. You expect your #1 to start right away because you don't have the luxury of allowing him to sit behind a vet starter for very long.

[speedkilz88]

The detractors continue to say Carpenter is the most ready to play, but they can't say he is the better player. All the info out on the three, Carpenter is the lowest pick. Even PFWeekly and Kirwan seem to think he is an inside guy in the 3-4. All three players have flaws, but it seems Lawson is the one whose gets pointed out the most and Carpenter's the least.(of the three)

[MichaelWinicki]

The detractors continue to say Carpenter is the most ready to play, but they can't say he is the better player. All the info out on the three, Carpenter is the lowest pick. Even PFWeekly and Kirwan seem to think he is an inside guy in the 3-4. All three players have flaws, but it seems Lawson is the one whose gets pointed out the most and Carpenter's the least.(of the three)

I guess you haven't taken the time to read Vela's blog then...

[Doomsday101]

The detractors continue to say Carpenter is the most ready to play, but they can't say he is the better player. All the info out on the three, Carpenter is the lowest pick. Even PFWeekly and Kirwan seem to think he is an inside guy in the 3-4. All three players have flaws, but it seems Lawson is the one whose gets pointed out the most and Carpenter's the least.(of the three)

I have nothing aginst Lawson but the fact is he is a DE who has not played LB has not had to cover a TE or back. He has been asked to rush the passer and that is it and the LB spot requires more than just rushing the passer which is why Ware is taking some time to learn the position. I think too many are looking at Lawson strickly from a pass rusher view point but there is more to the position than that even in the 3-4.

[Rack Bauer]

Lawson is strong and can stand up against the run. He's got the speed to be great in coverage and is far and away the best pass-rusher. It's a clear choice at 18 between Carp and Lawson. The only question is whether its more valuable to trade down to get Carp. That may be more valuable, but saying Lawson isn't a good fit here doesn't make sense to me.



:lmao2: :lmao: :lmao2: :lmao: :lmao2: :lmao: :lmao2: :lmao: :lmao2: :lmao: :lmao2: :lmao: :lmao2: :lmao: :lmao2: :lmao:

[MichaelWinicki]

There is no consensus out there saying Lawson is the BPA and in the draft taking the BPA that fits a need make more sense and if you notice every team does it. You expect your #1 to start right away because you don't have the luxury of allowing him to sit behind a vet starter for very long.


That's exactly right.

[speedkilz88]

I have nothing aginst Lawson but the fact is he is a DE who has not played LB has not had to cover a TE or back. He has been asked to rush the passer and that is it and the LB spot requires more than just rushing the passer which is why Ware is taking some time to learn the position. I think too many are looking at Lawson strickly from a pass rusher view point but there is more to the position than that even in the 3-4.The true fact is that Lawson has been used in coverage, he was a LB his first two seasons and covered Heath Miller as a freshman. He also dropped in coverage as a DE.

[MichaelWinicki]

Lawson is strong and can stand up against the run. He's got the speed to be great in coverage and is far and away the best pass-rusher. It's a clear choice at 18 between Carp and Lawson. The only question is whether its more valuable to trade down to get Carp. That may be more valuable, but saying Lawson isn't a good fit here doesn't make sense to me.

The speed to be great in coverage? Speed doesn't necessitate coverage ability. If so the BJ Tucker would still be here.

So much of it is instincts and you have a guy that is not use to standing up and playing off the line of scrimmage (he hasn't done so in a couple of years) without his first responsibility being-- rushing the passer.

[Doomsday101]

The true fact is that Lawson has been in used in coverage, he was a LB his first two seasons and covered Heath Miller as a freshman. He also dropped in coverage as a DE.

As I said if Dallas gets him I'm not going to be disappointed but I don't think he is the better player. I think Lawson is an option for Dallas but not the only option out there.

[MichaelWinicki]

The true fact is that Lawson has been used in coverage, he was a LB his first two seasons and covered Heath Miller as a freshman. He also dropped in coverage as a DE.

You're reaching now.

Just because he can throw a TV dinner into the microwave doesn't make him a chef. ;)


(feel free to use the above quote-- just give me credit- OK? :))

[Doomsday101]

You're reaching now.

Just because he can throw a TV dinner into the microwave doesn't make him a chef. ;)

But it does increase your Wonderlic score. :laugh2:

[MichaelWinicki]

But it does increase your Wonderlic score. :laugh2:


That's very true! I heard Vince Yound didn't know you had to cut the plastic sheet off above the "peas".

[burmafrd]

point is that he has done some coverage work- that can be looked at in films and studied for hints on his ability.

[MichaelWinicki]

point is that he has done some coverage work- that can be looked at in films and studied for hints on his ability.

Now that you've told me that I feel pretty confident in choosing Lawson. ;)

[speedkilz88]

So why do you gloss over negatives on Carpenter?

PFW, The Way We See It: "Scouts wanted to see him play in the Senior Bowl to answer questions about whether he could cover, but he chose not to play. Can handle simple task like rushing the passer and is used a lot with his hand on the ground to take advantage of his athletic ability and hide his average cover instincts. Scouts like him, but they don't love him and think he will get overdrafted because of his physical ability. Has some versatility and can fit on the strong side in a 4-3 scheme or inside in a 3-4."

Negatives:

"Has too many peaks and valleys in his performance and is not as consistent as he should be. Does not have great change of direction. Can be late to find the ball. Is too analytical and overanalyzes instead of seeing and going. Asks too many questions. "

edit/ Carpenter's **it stinks too. They all have flaws.

[CrazyCowboy]

Maybe I am wrong about Lawson and leaning a little more with Carpenter!

[MichaelWinicki]

So why do you gloss over negatives on Carpenter?

PFW, The Way We See It: "Scouts wanted to see him play in the Senior Bowl to answer questions about whether he could cover, but he chose not to play. Can handle simple task like rushing the passer and is used a lot with his hand on the ground to take advantage of his athletic ability and hide his average cover instincts. Scouts like him, but they don't love him and think he will get overdrafted because of his physical ability. Has some versatility and can fit on the strong side in a 4-3 scheme or inside in a 3-4."

Negatives:

"Has too many peaks and valleys in his performance and is not as consistent as he should be. Does not have great change of direction. Can be late to find the ball. Is too analytical and overanalyzes instead of seeing and going. Asks too many questions. "

edit/ Carpenter's **it stinks too. They all have flaws.


Hey, I don't think Carpenter is perfect... just a better fit for what we need.

[theogt]

The speed to be great in coverage? Speed doesn't necessitate coverage ability. If so the BJ Tucker would still be here.

So much of it is instincts and you have a guy that is not use to standing up and playing off the line of scrimmage (he hasn't done so in a couple of years) without his first responsibility being-- rushing the passer.I didn't say speed alone is what it takes. I said that his speed will help him in coverage. To me, Carp is a liability in coverage. He lacks the athletic ability to match up with NFL TEs, much less go up against a WR with speed and agility in the slot. Lawson however could match up great. Maybe he has the mentality for coverage and maybe he doesn't. That can certainly be taught.

The way I see it there are three characteristics we need to look at.

Against the Run: Lawson < Carpenter
In Coverage: Lawson >>> Carpenter
Pass Rush: Lawson >>>>>>> Carpenter

[MichaelWinicki]

I didn't say speed alone is what it takes. I said that his speed will help him in coverage. To me, Carp is a liability in coverage. He lacks the athletic ability to match up with NFL TEs, much less go up against a WR with speed and agility in the slot. Lawson however could match up great. Maybe he has the mentality for coverage and maybe he doesn't. That can certainly be taught.

The way I see it there are three characteristics we need to look at.

Against the Run: Lawson < Carpenter
In Coverage: Lawson >>> Carpenter
Pass Rush: Lawson >>>>>>> Carpenter


But if you read Vela's blog there is an interesting remark that Carpenter had better closing speed to the QB than any of the others.

[Doomsday]

The thing about Carpenter that I like is that while he might not be a super star we're almost guaranteed to get a solid player for years to come. I hear a lot of Bruski/Vrable comparisons and we couldn't ask for a better complement to Ware than a player like that.

I agree! He adds a physical presence to the position as well.

[theogt]

But if you read Vela's blog there is an interesting remark that Carpenter had better closing speed to the QB than any of the others.One guy's opinion. I disagreed with that the minute I read it. Watch any one of the numerous videos that have been posted of both players. Carpenter doesn't have anything on Lawson when it comes to speed, short or long distance.

[Rack Bauer]

So why do you gloss over negatives on Carpenter?

PFW, The Way We See It: "Scouts wanted to see him play in the Senior Bowl to answer questions about whether he could cover, but he chose not to play. Can handle simple task like rushing the passer and is used a lot with his hand on the ground to take advantage of his athletic ability and hide his average cover instincts. Scouts like him, but they don't love him and think he will get overdrafted because of his physical ability. Has some versatility and can fit on the strong side in a 4-3 scheme or inside in a 3-4."

Negatives:

"Has too many peaks and valleys in his performance and is not as consistent as he should be. Does not have great change of direction. Can be late to find the ball. Is too analytical and overanalyzes instead of seeing and going. Asks too many questions. "

edit/ Carpenter's **it stinks too. They all have flaws.


Ummm... I'm just guessing here... but maybe the reason he didn't play... is...


possibly...

cuz...


HE WAS FREAKIN' INJURED?!?!


And "asks too many questions"? You sh'in me? "Asks too many questions" is a negative?


WOW.



Against the Run: Lawson < Carpenter
In Coverage: Lawson >>> Carpenter
Pass Rush: Lawson >>>>>>> Carpenter


Funny you have Lawson as better in coverage then Carpenter eventhough he's RARELY done it. You know he's that much better in coverage just based on his combine workouts? AMAZING.


And the pass rush part is laughable at best. Lawson is a speed rusher. Carpenter is the better PASS rusher.


Your MannyLove is getting out of hand.

[theogt]

My opinion of Lawson's coverage is based on (1) his speed and athletic ability, (2) his record when he has been used in coverage, which was apparently pretty darn good, and (3) the film I've seen of him.

Remember, I'm not saying Manny is going to be great in coverage. I'm just saying that it is probable, based upon what I've seen, that Manny will be better in coverage than Carpenter.

[neosapien23]

Ummm... I'm just guessing here... but maybe the reason he didn't play... is...


possibly...

cuz...


HE WAS FREAKIN' INJURED?!?!


And "asks too many questions"? You sh'in me? "Asks too many questions" is a negative?



WOW.







Funny you have Lawson as better in coverage then Carpenter eventhough he's RARELY done it. You know he's that much better in coverage just based on his combine workouts? AMAZING.


And the pass rush part is laughable at best. Lawson is a speed rusher. Carpenter is the better PASS rusher.


Your MannyLove is getting out of hand.

I wanted Manny Lawson, but there is no way his coverage skills are better than Carpenter's. Carpenter is a much more polished player, but Lawson has great potential. Than again, I don't know if it would be wise to move Ware to the SOLB just to get Lawson. However, I have to disagree with your assessment on Carpenter being a better pass rusher. Lawson is much faster, has had more production in college (sacks), and is stronger despite not weighing as much as Carpenter. I do agree that Carpenter is a better fit for this team and have began to stop drinking the Kool-Aid. Lawson has had trouble stopping the run, something that Carpenter does excel at.

[theogt]

I wanted Manny Lawson, but there is no way his coverage skills are better than Carpenter's. Carpenter is a much more polished player, but Lawson has great potential. Than again, I don't know if it would be wise to move Ware to the SOLB just to get Lawson. However, I have to disagree with your assessment on Carpenter being a better pass rusher. Lawson is much faster, has had more production in college (sacks), and is stronger despite not weighing as much as Carpenter. I do agree that Carpenter is a better fit for this team and have began to stop drinking the Kool-Aid. Lawson has had trouble stopping the run, something that Carpenter does excel at.?????

I've never seen this criticism. He's big and strong and his tackling is solid from what I've seen. This is a recipe for being good against the run.

[neosapien23]

?????

I've never seen this criticism. He's big and strong and his tackling is solid from what I've seen. This is a recipe for being good against the run.

Look at the game tape. Teams ran right at him and were able to get yards. He is a great pass rusher, but his lanky build doesn't help with stopping the run.

[theogt]

Look at the game tape. Teams ran right at him and were able to get yards. He is a great pass rusher, but his lanky build doesn't help with stopping the run.Sure, as a 4-3 DE his a bit undersized. Not the case as a 3-4 OLB. He's taking on blockers differently and making tackles differently.

[neosapien23]

Sure, as a 4-3 DE his a bit undersized. Not the case as a 3-4 OLB. He's taking on blockers differently and making tackles differently.

OLBers still have to take on guards and tackles once in awhile in the 3-4. Carpenter has already shown he could do this. Lawson is certainly an intriguing pick, and he doesn't have an injury riddled history. If Dallas takes Lawson, I don't think he is big enough to play SOLB right now. Ware would have to be moved over and Lawson would have to play the weakside. Then again, that might now be such a bad thing after all.

[theogt]

OLBers still have to take on guards and tackles once in awhile in the 3-4.Of course they do, but he's not taking them on at the proverbial "point of impact" where low center of gravity and power is more important.

[Vintage]

Wait, so how is Manny better in coverage?

Because of his "measurables?"

Carpenter played OLB at tOSU. In passing situations, he would also line up at DE.

That tells us two things; he can cover. And he can rush the QB.

Manny played DE in college. That tells us he can rush the QB.

[Vintage]

How does Carpenter have an injury riddled past?

He was injured ONCE during his collegiate career.

Was Newman have an injury riddled college career (since I guess, we are classifying injuries as having an injury riddled career)?

[gimmesix]

The detractors continue to say Carpenter is the most ready to play, but they can't say he is the better player. All the info out on the three, Carpenter is the lowest pick. Even PFWeekly and Kirwan seem to think he is an inside guy in the 3-4. All three players have flaws, but it seems Lawson is the one whose gets pointed out the most and Carpenter's the least.(of the three)

In NFLDraftsScouts.com's latest top 100, Wimbley is rated 13th, Carpenter 18th and Lawson 19th, so I don't think all the info out there has Carp as the lowest pick.

[theogt]

Wait, so how is Manny better in coverage?Look up a page or so in the thread. I explained why I thought Manny will probably be better in coverage.

[neosapien23]

How does Carpenter have an injury riddled past?

He was injured ONCE during his collegiate career.

Was Newman have an injury riddled college career (since I guess, we are classifying injuries as having an injury riddled career)?

I didn't say that. That was more like a reference to Burnett and Rogers who both had injury concerns. One player was deemed a bust, and the other is still dinged up. Carpenter having a broken ankle is alot different than two guys who both had to have reconstructive surgeries. Lawson, Carpenter, and Wimbley are all intriguing picks and none of them have had an injury riddled college career.

[Vintage]

Look up a page or so in the thread. I explained why I thought Manny will probably be better in coverage.

You can stick to the probablies, I will stick to what was seen.

Carpenter was seen to show good coverage skills. Maybe not "outstanding", but good.....good enough to play OLB and do it well.

[Rack Bauer]

You can stick to the probablies, I will stick to what was seen.

Carpenter was seen to show good coverage skills. Maybe not "outstanding", but good.....good enough to play OLB and do it well.



theogt usually is an intelligent poster but he's got some serious MannyLove blinding him at the moment. Just take what he says about ML with a grain of salt.


Lawson >>>> Carpenter in coverage... yeah ummm, ok.

[theogt]

You can stick to the probablies, I will stick to what was seen.

Carpenter was seen to show good coverage skills. Maybe not "outstanding", but good.....good enough to play OLB and do it well.Sure, I'll stick to "probablies". It wouldn't make any sense to say it any other way. I don't know with any certainty that Lawson will be better, but I think that he probably will be better. I haven't seen that Carpenter has shown "good" coverage skills. I've seen him play a pretty good bit and I would say he's average. Manny on the other hand has the potential to be well above average in coverage.

[neosapien23]

I'm just going to say this. I really wish Dallas would have taken Kalif Barnes last year instead of Burnett. I think Burnett would be a great fit in the 4-3, but he isn't big enough to play the OLB spot. Even Lawson-who is being questioned for being too skinny-is bigger than he is. Barnes on the other hand is looking like the real deal and he is only going to get better.

[theogt]

I'm just going to say this. I really wish Dallas would have taken Kalif Barnes last year instead of Burnett. I think Burnett would be a great fit in the 4-3, but he isn't big enough to play the OLB spot. Even Lawson-who is being questioned for being too skinny-is bigger than he is. Barnes on the other hand is lokking like the real deal and he is only going to get better.I think there are a few better picks than Burnett at that point in the draft. Hopefully he'll prove us wrong.

[big dog cowboy]

I think Burnett would be a great fit in the 4-3, but he isn't big enough to play the OLB spot.
Coming out of college:

Height: 6-2
Weight: 239

Wouldn't surprise me if he was 250 when the season starts. Good enough for me.

[Vintage]

theogt usually is an intelligent poster but he's got some serious MannyLove blinding him at the moment. Just take what he says about ML with a grain of salt.


Lawson >>>> Carpenter in coverage... yeah ummm, ok.


Sounds good.

[theogt]

theogt usually is an intelligent poster but he's got some serious MannyLove blinding him at the moment. Just take what he says about ML with a grain of salt.


Lawson >>>> Carpenter in coverage... yeah ummm, ok.I think I'm putting this in the sig. haha

[Vintage]

Sure, I'll stick to "probablies". It wouldn't make any sense to say it any other way. I don't know with any certainty that Lawson will be better, but I think that he probably will be better. I haven't seen that Carpenter has shown "good" coverage skills. I've seen him play a pretty good bit and I would say he's average. Manny on the other hand has the potential to be well above average in coverage.

Carpenter has shown he can cover TE's, etc.

Lawson hasn't.

Hence, Carpenter is better in coverage, until Manny can prove he can do it on the level Carpenter has.

Furthermore, Carpenter has shown the ability to not only take on T/G's, but shed their blocks.

Lawson relied on going around them with his speed/athleticism.

Scouts are worried about Lawson's ability to cover, take on blockers in a 3-4, and they should be. He hasn't shown a propensity to do it (partially bec. of the system he was in).

Carpenter has.

Carpenter is the safer pick, we'd get better production from him immediately (most likely), and its not like Carpenter is a slouch either.

He's the perfect fit for the SOLB in our 3-4.

If it makes you feel any better, the Patriots are rumored to be very high on him.

[Vintage]

I'm just going to say this. I really wish Dallas would have taken Kalif Barnes last year instead of Burnett. I think Burnett would be a great fit in the 4-3, but he isn't big enough to play the OLB spot. Even Lawson-who is being questioned for being too skinny-is bigger than he is. Barnes on the other hand is looking like the real deal and he is only going to get better.
I was hoping for Barnes too.

However, if Burnett is healthy, he has some speed to him.... I'd like to see him as the SOLB if he can prove to be starter material. He has the speed/athleticism to cover and he did well in college. He needs to improve in that area, but he has the intangibles.

[Rack Bauer]

I think I'm putting this in the sig. haha


Like I said, the serious Mannylove is blinding him. He didn't even consider the tremendous backfire he could get with that quote in his sig.

[theogt]

Carpenter has shown he can cover TE's, etc.

Lawson hasn't.

Hence, Carpenter is better in coverage, until Manny can prove he can do it on the level Carpenter has.

Furthermore, Carpenter has shown the ability to not only take on T/G's, but shed their blocks.

Lawson relied on going around them with his speed/athleticism.

Scouts are worried about Lawson's ability to cover, take on blockers in a 3-4, and they should be. He hasn't shown a propensity to do it (partially bec. of the system he was in).

Carpenter has.

Carpenter is the safer pick, we'd get better production from him immediately (most likely), and its not like Carpenter is a slouch either.

He's the perfect fit for the SOLB in our 3-4.

If it makes you feel any better, the Patriots are rumored to be very high on him.Actually Lawson has shown that he can cover excellent TEs. He's played against a couple big names and apparently shut them down. (note - this is second hand information that I've heard from this board) Also, watch some of the clips on Lawson. Sure he has great outside speedn and can usually beat the OT on the outside, but he's clearly shown the ability to shed blocks. I can think of a few examples off the top of my head.

[theogt]

Like I said, the serious Mannylove is blinding him. He didn't even consider the tremendous backfire he could get with that quote in his sig.It's a joke. Backfire? what the hell are you talking about?

[neosapien23]

Coming out of college:

Height: 6-2
Weight: 239

Wouldn't surprise me if he was 250 when the season starts. Good enough for me.

Normally I would agree, but most of his time will be diverted into rehabbing his knee. He will probabaly not get bigger and he might even lose weight. Rehab is time consuming and people just try to get back their range of motion, not bulk up.

[Rack Bauer]

It's a joke. Backfire? what the hell are you talking about?


Eh. Nevermind. I misinterpreted (sp?) what you meant. No biggie.

[MichaelWinicki]

I'm scared of Manny "Mamula". :)

[dwmyers]

Ok, I'm no OLB lover in general, but one of the things I do like about Carpenter (hard to test with his injury), is that the size/speed ratios I saw floated for this guy were just a little south of Vernon Davis.

Yes, Manny is provably fast, but given Carpenter's size, if the pre-Combine estimates of his speed are true, then Bobby can really motor.

In other words, I don't think Manny has much of a speed advantage over Carpenter and you know, Carpenter is a lot bigger.

So I'll ask this: who is the better hitter of the two? I've not seen tapes. What do the tapes say? :confused:

David.

[theogt]

In other words, I don't think Manny has much of a speed advantage over Carpenter and you know, Carpenter is a lot bigger.I will just have to disagree with you here and I think most others will too. Manny has a significant speed advantage over Carpenter. They're about equal in strength, but Manny won in bench reps. Carpenter certainly isn't "a lot bigger" either.

[MiStar]

I just went though Gil Brant's records of every single pro day, and there were no DE's or OLB's that were both bigger and faster than Carpenter, although it should be noted that Stanley McGlover was three pounds heavier and had the same average 40-times (two runs averaged together).

Then consider the fact that he's coming off an ankle injury and the fact that he ran a 4.53 at OSU's pro day last year, in which Hawk posted similar times to what he did this year, and you have someone in a class of his own. When no one is both bigger and faster than you, that makes you a special athlete.

So, in conclusion, Manny Lawson is faster than Bobby Carpenter. However, Bobby Carpenter is at the top of his weight class, in terms of 40-speed.

[AdamJT13]

Is it just me, or does this sound a lot like the Ware-vs.-Merriman debates last year?

[MiStar]

It reminds me more of the DJ-vs.-Merriman debates before the draft last year. The predraft Merriman-vs.-Ware debates didn't really get into full swing until after the draft because 1) hardly anyone had ever seen Ware play 2) hardly anyone thought that Ware would be selected early in the first round until a week or so before the draft.

[dwmyers]

I will just have to disagree with you here and I think most others will too..

Face it, the only direct comparisons we have at this moment are of a healthy Manny and an injured Bobby, so what anybody says about them become irrelevant once Bobby is fully healthy.

MiStar has pointed out that Bobby ran a 4.53 40 when healthy. That's faster than a lot of running backs.

David.

[Smith22]

I like Carpenter in a trade down, IF we think he will still be there. Plenty of teams behind us need help at LB'er, so I'm not so sure. The thing I worry about with Lawson is his frame and whether or not he can keep adding weight, his base is REALLY skinny IMO. Carpenter should be able to step in and play right away, and by the looks of some of our moves, we are looking to win now, not later. Either way, I will be happy as long as the boys have faith that Manny can make the transition, but I'm more inclined to pick Carpenter at this point. Jason Allen WITHOUT the hip injury would have been my pick before.

[austintodallas]

I like Carpenter in a trade down, IF we think he will still be there.He won't be. Carpenter has Pats written all over him.

If we don't take him, he's gone at 21.

[AdamJT13]

The predraft Merriman-vs.-Ware debates didn't really get into full swing until after the draft because 1) hardly anyone had ever seen Ware play 2) hardly anyone thought that Ware would be selected early in the first round until a week or so before the draft.

The Merriman-vs.-Ware debates started at least two weeks before the draft when Rick Gosselin projected us to draft Ware at No. 11 in his first mock on April 10. (He projected us to draft Spears at No. 20, too.)

In the days from then until the draft, there were threads on this board titled "Sacks by Game - Ware & Merriman," "Ware OVER Merriman (and MW)," "Merriman over Ware" and "Merriman/Ware Analysis from NFL.com" -- and those are just the threads with both players in the title.

[Smith22]

The Merriman-vs.-Ware debates started at least two weeks before the draft when Rick Gosselin projected us to draft Ware at No. 11 in his first mock on April 10. (He projected us to draft Spears at No. 20, too.)

In the days from then until the draft, there were threads on this board titled "Sacks by Game - Ware & Merriman," "Ware OVER Merriman (and MW)," "Merriman over Ware" and "Merriman/Ware Analysis from NFL.com" -- and those are just the threads with both players in the title.

Adam,

Do you have some names that your interested in come draft day? If so, who? Just curious.

[speedkilz88]

Are Ohio St. 40 times reliable? Hawk ran in the low 4.6's on the new combine turf, I think that time is more realistic than the Ohio St. times of he and Carpenter that have been thrown at. Not saying Carpenter doesn't have good speed, just not as fast as Ohio St. times.

[Vintage]

Remember....

Carpenter did run his 40 at the Combine while still not 100%.

[Bob Sacamano]

Some nice analysis here from one of Vela's sources regarding Wimbley vs. Lawson vs. Carpenter...

http://theboysblog.com/

reading that bit about Carpenter just put him #1 on my list

[theogt]

reading that bit about Carpenter just put him #1 on my listWow. Makes me want to start a blog and say everyone should deposit money into my bank account.

[Bob Sacamano]

Wow. Makes me want to start a blog and say everyone should deposit money into my bank account.

you would need an NFL scout telling us that your bank account was the best ;)

[theogt]

you would need an NFL scout telling us that your bank account was the best ;)I can just put quotes around it and contribute it to Jeff Ireland himself.

[Bob Sacamano]

I can just put quotes around it and contribute it to Jeff Ireland himself.

Andrew Carnegie reincarnated as theogt? :bow:

[MiStar]

The Merriman-vs.-Ware debates started at least two weeks before the draft when Rick Gosselin projected us to draft Ware at No. 11 in his first mock on April 10. (He projected us to draft Spears at No. 20, too.)

In the days from then until the draft, there were threads on this board titled "Sacks by Game - Ware & Merriman," "Ware OVER Merriman (and MW)," "Merriman over Ware" and "Merriman/Ware Analysis from NFL.com" -- and those are just the threads with both players in the title.

True. But the Merriman vs. DJ threads started getting really hot sometime around January or February, and continued all the way up to draft day. The whole Carpenter vs. Lawson thing has been going on for a long time. I would say that the recent Wimbley discussion most closely resembles the Ware discussion that we had last year.

[Jay9508]

which ever OLB that gets to the QB the most (carpenter) is the player i want on the team.

[Wezsh0T]

not having seen any of these guys in games, I went to look at the highlight reels on msn. I have to say that Lawson's highlights remind me a lot of Ware. Carpenter seems solid, but not flashy. This might be obvious, but in the same highlights, AJ Hawk looked alot better than Carpenter.

[big dog cowboy]

This might be obvious, but in the same highlights, AJ Hawk looked alot better than Carpenter.
That is why Hawk is a top 5-7 pick.

[Vintage]

which ever OLB that gets to the QB the most (carpenter) is the player i want on the team.

I disagree. While I want our SOLB to be able to rush the passer, I don't think we need him to have pass rushing as his strength.

Our SOLB needs to be able to take on blockers, shed blockers, cover TE's, have good speed, etc.

Carpenter is all of that.

And he lined up in dime situations for tOSU as a pass rusher, meaning he can rush the QB just fine.


To me, the aforementioned characteristics are more important (Carpenter) than just having a great speed rusher (Lawson).

[theogt]

I disagree. While I want our SOLB to be able to rush the passer, I don't think we need him to have pass rushing as his strength.

Our SOLB needs to be able to take on blockers, shed blockers, cover TE's, have good speed, etc.

Carpenter is all of that.

And he lined up in dime situations for tOSU as a pass rusher, meaning he can rush the QB just fine.


To me, the aforementioned characteristics are more important (Carpenter) than just having a great speed rusher (Lawson).There's something very peculiar about this post, which leads me to believe you have a bias towards Carpenter.

[Vintage]

There's something very peculiar about this post, which leads me to believe you have a bias towards Carpenter.
I don't have a bias towards him as in I back tOSU.

I could care less for tOSU.

But I do believe Carpenter to be the better fit for our defense than Lawson. I have made that statement numerous times. The only bias I have is that I want Dallas to draft the best OLB for our team, if we choose to go OLB in round one. And I believe that to be Carpenter.

[theogt]

I don't have a bias towards him as in I back tOSU.

I could care less for tOSU.

But I do believe Carpenter to be the better fit for our defense than Lawson. I have made that statement numerous times. The only bias I have is that I want Dallas to draft the best OLB for our team, if we choose to go OLB in round one. And I believe that to be Carpenter.I love how people assume that Carpenter is better against the run and shedding blocks, etc. when it's Lawson who played DE in college. Carpenter for the most part was standing up and running at the ball carrier.

[Vintage]

I love how people assume that Carpenter is better against the run and shedding blocks, etc. when it's Lawson who played DE in college. Carpenter for the most part was standing up and running at the ball carrier.
Carpenter lined up on the DL on dime situations as a pass rusher. He may have even done that as a nickle rusher too, I cannot recall.

The point is, Carpenter has proven to be able to shed blockers/take on blockers from both the LB spot and the DL spot.

Lawson, from what I saw of him, relied upon his speed moreso to get to the QB. Not that its a bad thing, because as long as you get to the QB, it doesn't really matter how. And he did that with his hand on the ground.

However, Carpenter translates to a SOLB because of his ability to play OLB in college, his size, his willingness/ability to take on blockers, cover TE's....which is what we need.

Lawson translates more to a WOLB, someone whose primary job is to rush the QB.

We have Ware at WOLB. Unless we are moving Ware to SOLB, we need a SOLB.

Hence, my preference for Carpenter. If we already had a SOLB, I'd be all for Lawson.

[theogt]

Carpenter lined up on the DL on dime situations as a pass rusher. He may have even done that as a nickle rusher too, I cannot recall.

The point is, Carpenter has proven to be able to shed blockers/take on blockers from both the LB spot and the DL spot.

Lawson, from what I saw of him, relied upon his speed moreso to get to the QB. Not that its a bad thing, because as long as you get to the QB, it doesn't really matter how. And he did that with his hand on the ground.

However, Carpenter translates to a SOLB because of his ability to play OLB in college, his size, his willingness/ability to take on blockers, cover TE's....which is what we need.

Lawson translates more to a WOLB, someone whose primary job is to rush the QB.

We have Ware at WOLB. Unless we are moving Ware to SOLB, we need a SOLB.

Hence, my preference for Carpenter. If we already had a SOLB, I'd be all for Lawson.Actually, the clips that have been posted showed Lawson shedding blocks several times (probably about 1/4 to 1/3 of the clips). He can do it just fine apparently, but his speed allows him to get arond them so quick most times he has no need to cut inside. Lawson can put on 10 lbs and be bigger than Carpenter. He's already shown that he's at least stronger than Carpenter in the bench press. I would say strength-wise they're both pretty equal. Lawson has proven himself able to cover TEs. He has also proven his willingness to take on blocks (HE WAS A DE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!).

In all, I think the few advantages that most claim Carpenter has are well overstated. On the other hand its clear that Manny has some freakish athletic ability that Carpenter lacks.

[Vintage]

From NFLDraftCountdown.


Weaknesses:
Vastly undersized...A DE / OLB 'tweener who may not have a clear position at the pro level...Struggles to defend the run...Needs to get stronger...Gets engulfed by massive offensive tackles...Doesn't always play with good leverage...Needs to use his hands better...Is he just a workout warrior?...Won't be a fit for every team and will need to be in the right system to succeed...Relies on speed heavily.


From NFLDraftForecast


Weaknesses:
• Is relatively skinny as a DE
• Is not a very good run stopper at this point in his career
• Is not very strong at the point of attack, can get out muscled


From PFW


Weaknesses:
Too skinny and undersized and looks almost rail-thin. Lacks bulk and strength. Will get shut down by elite, upper-echelon NFL offensive tackles. A bit tight-hipped and slow to change directions. Too straight-linish and will overpursue. Gets washed by double teams. Needs to add more variety of pass-rush moves and gets shut down too easily if he can't win with speed.


PFW also said Lawson projects to be a pass-rushing OLB (WOLB).

Again, this is all under the for what its worth category.

I think Lawson can be good. Probably not with us...as he is redundant with Ware (unless we move Ware to SOLB, which I have seen nothing to suggest this).

[theogt]

Those are all great criticisms that I have already read. Good thing they're directed at him being a DE, not an OLB. These sites rank him among DEs. Of course he's too small for a DE in the NFL. Perfect, absolutely perfect size, for a 3-4 OLB.

Oh, and the WOLB in a 3-4 IS A PASS-RUSHER!!! The whole point of drafting a top pick OLB opposite Ware is so that we have some balance in the pass rush. Otherwise they know where the rush is coming from on every play.

[Vintage]

Those are all great criticisms that I have already read. Good thing they're directed at him being a DE, not an OLB. These sites rank him among DEs. Of course he's too small for a DE in the NFL. Perfect, absolutely perfect size, for a 3-4 OLB.

Oh, and the WOLB in a 3-4 IS A PASS-RUSHER!!!

Yes, I know that the WOLB is a pass rusher.

Guess what Ware plays for us? WOLB.

Guess what Lawson is better suited to play? WOLB.

That's the whole point.

[MichaelWinicki]

Those are all great criticisms that I have already read. Good thing they're directed at him being a DE, not an OLB. These sites rank him among DEs. Of course he's too small for a DE in the NFL. Perfect, absolutely perfect size, for a 3-4 OLB.

Oh, and the WOLB in a 3-4 IS A PASS-RUSHER!!! The whole point of drafting a top pick OLB opposite Ware is so that we have some balance in the pass rush. Otherwise they know where the rush is coming from on every play.


I'm glad you finally agree that Carpenter is the better choice. ;)

[theogt]

Yes, I know that the WOLB is a pass rusher.

Guess what Ware plays for us? WOLB.

Guess what Lawson is better suited to play? WOLB.

That's the whole point.Mistake. Meant SOLB. I was in a hurry and typing fast. It should have been apparent from the context that I mean SOLB.

[Rack Bauer]

Vintage, you're wasting your time arguing with this guy. I already told you yesterday that his MannyLove blinds him.


I wasn't kidding either. Don't think you're gonna come up with an angle he'll finally understand. It's not about understanding with him. He doesn't WANT to face the truth of it.

Every year you get a few members that are DEAD SET on a certain player no matter what. theogt is dead set on Manny Lawson.

Bring up the difference between a SOLB and WOLB? Done. He won't see it.

Bring up that he's weak against the run? He thinks moving to SOLB will suddenly cure that problem.

Bring up that Lawson got a lot of his sacks cuz Mario Williams forced the QB to run to him (Lawson), he disregards it completely.



It's a lost cause. You can continue to debate with him, but everything you've mentioned in this thread has been brought to his attention before. If it didn't sink in before it's not gonna sink in now.


But if you wish to continue "debating" with him, no problemo. Just thought I'd give you a fair warning about his deep MannyLove.


Mistake. Meant SOLB.


Freudian slip.

[skinsscalper]

You look for quick fixes in free agency, not the draft. In the draft, you take the best player.


:hammer:


This is why I remain on the Manny wagon. Some have voiced their concerns that Carp may be more NFL ready today, and they MIGHT be right. However, we do NOT, as some might suggest, have an elephant sized hole on that side of the D. A healthy Singleton made this D pretty solid on that side last year.

Manny has more upside than Wimbly or Carpenter by a long ways (athletically). I see him as a Julian Peterson type of player (before his achilles injury). To be honest Carpenter and Wimbley simply don't excite me.

I watched the highlight reels of all three that were posted here the other day and, honestly, Carpenter was by far the least impressive. In the beginning of this thread there was speculation of whether or not Lawson was the real deal because Mario Williams was taking on the double teams and Lawson was beating only one guy. Well, there's a guy on the other side of our D named Ware (I'm sure you guys have heard of him). If I had to guess, I'd bet he'll take a couple of double teams himself, leaving someone 1 on 1.

Like I said before, I don't need the guy to come in and set the league on fire in year one, but I think the guys potential is through the roof, and I'd take him in a heartbeat.

SS

[theogt]

Rack, simply believing you've proven your point doesn't make it so. We have a fundamental disagreement about (1) Manny's ability against the run and (2) the role of the SOLB. I agree to disagree. We've actually never talked about Williams' affect on Lawson. You stated in the video posted that Lawson was usually the second guy to the QB, but I pointed out that in all but 2-3 of the plays he was the first.

[speedkilz88]

From NFLDraftCountdown.



From NFLDraftForecast



From PFW



PFW also said Lawson projects to be a pass-rushing OLB (WOLB).

Again, this is all under the for what its worth category.

I think Lawson can be good. Probably not with us...as he is redundant with Ware (unless we move Ware to SOLB, which I have seen nothing to suggest this).Did you bother reading the (PFW) negatives on Carpenter? Did you bother reading the part about him being suited as a 3-4 inside linebacker?(also PFW)

[Vintage]

Did you bother reading the (PFW) negatives on Carpenter? Did you bother reading the part about him being suited as a 3-4 inside linebacker?(also PFW)

Yes, I read that. And IIRC, New England was looking at moving Carpenter inside if they took him.

But let's read PFW's positives about Carpenter


Big and fast. Lines up over the tight end and is physical with the jam. Does not let receivers release cleanly. Very tough and plays hard. Brings a lot of energy and spirit to the field. Can squeeze and constrict running lanes and keep outside arm free. Plays the ball well in front of him in zone coverage and has good hands. Has an NFL pedigree with a father who played in the league. Great weight-room strength.



Big, fast, can line up over the TE, jams well, tough/hard nosed player.... Sounds like a good SOLB to me. Furthermore, he lined up as a DE and an OLB last year. Thats prototypical OLB sounding to me.

But yes, I believe Carpenter can ALSO play inside too.

Lawson looks the part (and is the part IMO) of a WOLB.

Now, unless we plan on moving Ware to SOLB (which maybe we could), Carpenter is the better fit. Lawson's strengths match up very nicely at the WOLB spot. If we think Ware can play SOLB, then maybe Manny isn't a bad option.

But if we keep Ware at WOLB, Carpenter seems the more natural fit.

[Vintage]

Vintage, you're wasting your time arguing with this guy. I already told you yesterday that his MannyLove blinds him.


I wasn't kidding either. Don't think you're gonna come up with an angle he'll finally understand. It's not about understanding with him. He doesn't WANT to face the truth of it.

Every year you get a few members that are DEAD SET on a certain player no matter what. theogt is dead set on Manny Lawson.

Bring up the difference between a SOLB and WOLB? Done. He won't see it.

Bring up that he's weak against the run? He thinks moving to SOLB will suddenly cure that problem.

Bring up that Lawson got a lot of his sacks cuz Mario Williams forced the QB to run to him (Lawson), he disregards it completely.



It's a lost cause. You can continue to debate with him, but everything you've mentioned in this thread has been brought to his attention before. If it didn't sink in before it's not gonna sink in now.


But if you wish to continue "debating" with him, no problemo. Just thought I'd give you a fair warning about his deep MannyLove.





Freudian slip.

Noted.

[Woods]

Yes, I read that. And IIRC, New England was looking at moving Carpenter inside if they took him.

But let's read PFW's positives about Carpenter



Big, fast, can line up over the TE, jams well, tough/hard nosed player.... Sounds like a good SOLB to me. Furthermore, he lined up as a DE and an OLB last year. Thats prototypical OLB sounding to me.

But yes, I believe Carpenter can ALSO play inside too.

Lawson looks the part (and is the part IMO) of a WOLB.

Now, unless we plan on moving Ware to SOLB (which maybe we could), Carpenter is the better fit. Lawson's strengths match up very nicely at the WOLB spot. If we think Ware can play SOLB, then maybe Manny isn't a bad option.

But if we keep Ware at WOLB, Carpenter seems the more natural fit.

Actually, if Carpenter is able to play both inside and outside LB, that probably puts his value up a bit more in the eyes of BP. We all know how much BP likes versatility.

[speedkilz88]

Yes, I read that. And IIRC, New England was looking at moving Carpenter inside if they took him.

But let's read PFW's positives about Carpenter



Big, fast, can line up over the TE, jams well, tough/hard nosed player.... Sounds like a good SOLB to me. Furthermore, he lined up as a DE and an OLB last year. Thats prototypical OLB sounding to me.

But yes, I believe Carpenter can ALSO play inside too.

Lawson looks the part (and is the part IMO) of a WOLB.

Now, unless we plan on moving Ware to SOLB (which maybe we could), Carpenter is the better fit. Lawson's strengths match up very nicely at the WOLB spot. If we think Ware can play SOLB, then maybe Manny isn't a bad option.

But if we keep Ware at WOLB, Carpenter seems the more natural fit.So basically your saying ignore Carpenter's negatives and the fact he is scouted as an inside guy, not an outside guy. Yet point out only Lawson's negatives.:rolleyes:

[Vintage]

So basically your saying ignore Carpenter's negatives and the fact he is scouted as an inside guy, not an outside guy. Yet point out only Lawson's negatives.:rolleyes:

What? No. My point from the beginning has been the same. Lawson projects to be a WOLB. Carpenter a SOLB.

I pointed out weaknesses in Lawson's game bec. I was explaining why he is projected to be a WOLB and NOT a SOLB. I didn't list Manny's strengths (such as raw speed/pass rushing) because its well documented and I assumed you knew that. I was wrong, I guess. What Manny does best, rush the passer, is better suited for the WOLB.

Manny's weaknesses and unknowns are exactly what is needed/required of a SOLB.

I listed Carpenter's strengths to show you why he is the perfect fit for the SOLB.

I didn't think I needed to reiterate what everyone and their brother knows about Manny; he can rush the passer.


So let me try this one more time:

Manny's strengths: Pass rushing, speed, athleticism.
Weaknesses or unknowns: Ability to stop the run, cover (and yes, I am aware he has the athletic ability to cover....that's not the question), jam people at the line.

Manny's strengths project him to be a 3-4 WOLB.

Carpenter's strengths: jamming, covering TE's, jamming, taking on blockers, etc.

Where does that project to: SOLB, ILB, OLB


Carpenter played the 4-3 OLB. That can and often does project to ILB in 3-4's. And in fact, Cleveland and NE have projected them to be ILB. However, other teams have him projected as an OLB too. He played somewhat of a tweener role in college, lining up at DE in nickle/dime situations.

That translates to a 3-4 OLB.

Manny projects well to a WOLB. Carpenter projects to being able to play any LB spot, and in our case, is the perfect fit for us as a 3-4 SOLB.

And since we have Ware at WOLB, another WOLB is not of need. UNLESS, we are considering moving Ware to SOLB.

[AsthmaField]

So basically your saying ignore Carpenter's negatives and the fact he is scouted as an inside guy, not an outside guy. Yet point out only Lawson's negatives.:rolleyes:

He was scouted as an ILB by a couple of people... almost everyone else is projecting him to OLB. He's an OLB but he could play inside.

Like Vintage said, he played some DE too... so he was a little like a tweener... and those types almost always project to the outside.

I like Manny and I like Bobby. I'm not getting caught up in these battles because I'm not sure which would be better at our SOLB. Luckily for everyone, its not my decision. Parcells and the rest of the dallas scouting department has that decision and if they pick one of those two, we'll know which they think projects better to our SOLB position. If Bobby is there and we take Manny... I think it will be clear what Dallas thinks. If we take Bobby, then we'll know.

I will say this... Bobby will give us some flexibility in that he can play inside. If, for instance, Burnett gets healthy and becomes an animal at SOLB, then Bobby could easily move inside and become a pro bowler there because he has a skillset which is suited for inside as much as outside. That's big IMO and could be the factor that pushes things in Bobby's favor.

[theogt]

I will say this... Bobby will give us some flexibility in that he can play inside. If, for instance, Burnett gets healthy and becomes an animal at SOLB, then Bobby could easily move inside and become a pro bowler there because he has a skillset which is suited for inside as much as outside. That's big IMO and could be the factor that pushes things in Bobby's favor.That's a very good point. I think people are "misguided" in thinking that the SOLB is a run-stopper first and foremost. In the 3-4 Bill intends to run the SOLB and WOLB positions are virtually identical. They both need to be able to hold up against the run, rush the QB and cover equally, but an emphasis is placed on both being able to get to the QB. The ILBs however are the run-stoppers. I don't agree that Carpenter is necessarily better against the run than Lawson, but if he were exceptional against the run it would be great because we could move him inside if needed.

People's perception of strong and weak OLBs is based largely on a 4-3. The 3-4 we're running is of course different.

[Vintage]

That's a very good point. I think people are "misguided" in thinking that the SOLB is a run-stopper first and foremost. In the 3-4 Bill intends to run the SOLB and WOLB positions are virtually identical. They both need to be able to hold up against the run, rush the QB and cover equally, but an emphasis is placed on both being able to get to the QB. The ILBs however are the run-stoppers. I don't agree that Carpenter is necessarily better against the run than Lawson, but if he were exceptional against the run it would be great because we could move him inside if needed.

People's perception of strong and weak OLBs is based largely on a 4-3. The 3-4 we're running is of course different.

No, the SOLB and WOLB both differ in the 3-4. Teams tend to run to the right more than to the left. As a result, you put your better run support defender at WOLB and your better pass rusher at WOLB (also bec. he tends to rush the QB's blindside).

I never said pass rushing wasn't important in either position, bec. in the 3-4, the linebackers generate the pressure.

However, at the WOLB, the pass rush is placed with more emphasis than it is at the SOLB. That isn't to say you should fill the SOLB with someone who cannot pass rush...but you need to find someone who more emphasis on certain things (coverage, jamming, run support for example) are equally as important.

Carpenter has all of that. And he can rush the QB. Lawson, to me, is the perfect WOLB. Carpenter, to me, is the more "jack of all trades" LB, able to play both ILB and SOLB.

[Rack Bauer]

You stated in the video posted that Lawson was usually the second guy to the QB, but I pointed out that in all but 2-3 of the plays he was the first.


Nope, that's not what I said. I said in those videos on alot of the plays he was either second to the QB, OR HE GOT THE SACK CUZ WILLIAMS FLUSHED THE QB RIGHT TO HIM (Lawson). You only acknowledged the "second to the QB" part of my post.




Actually, if Carpenter is able to play both inside and outside LB, that probably puts his value up a bit more in the eyes of BP. We all know how much BP likes versatility.


:hammer:



So basically your saying ignore Carpenter's negatives and the fact he is scouted as an inside guy, not an outside guy. Yet point out only Lawson's negatives


You don't think that maybe you just oversimplified the "he is scouted as an inside guy" bit? Just a little?



In the 3-4 Bill intends to run the SOLB and WOLB positions are virtually identical.


Tell me... how do you know what BP's intentions are?


Also, I think YOU are a bit misguided if you think the SOLB doesn't have to be a good run stopper.

But whatever, you don't have the ability to see reason at this point, what with your extreme MannyLove.



I don't agree that Carpenter is necessarily better against the run than Lawson


Wow. MannyLove at work....



People's perception of strong and weak OLBs is based largely on a 4-3. The 3-4 we're running is of course different.


Amazing. Simply amazing.


So because we run a 3-4, offense no longer have a strong and weak side. WHY DIDN'T WE SWITCH TO THE 3-4 A LONG TIME AGO?!?!



As a result, you put your better run support defender at WOLB and your better pass rusher at WOLB


Pretty sure you meant SOLB. We might as well start referring to them as Sam and Will. The SOLB/WOLB are too similiar and too easily typoed. theogt did the same thing earlier.



Carpenter has all of that. And he can rush the QB.


yeah theogt seems to keep "forgetting" that Carpenter is also a very good pass rusher. You'd think Lawson is the next LT and that Carpenter doesn't even know what "QB" stands for by reading thegot's posts.


And speaking of ignoring certain info about certain players... what does it say about who is the best pass rusher out of Wimbley, Lawson, and Carpenter on the first post of this thread?


Like I said, there's a difference between a speed rusher and a pass rusher.

[MichaelWinicki]

Truth be known I would be happy with Lawson too. I think over time he would be an upgrade what we have currently at the position. I just don't think he would be as helpful this year as what Carpenter would be.

You have to remember that the blitz isn't a big part of a Parcell's defense so the opportunity to pass rush from the SOLB spot is considerably less than from the WOLB which is considered the "4th" pass rusher-- generally speaking of course.

So in essense what Lawson does best, i.e. rush the passer would be minimized and what he is less successful at, i.e. stopping the run and what he is less experienced at, i.e. pass coverage would cause him to be a completely different player than what he has been as of late. And that concerns me.

[theogt]

Rack, you simply don't understand the 3-4. I never said there isn't a strong and weak side. You just don't understand the roles of the OLBs in the 3-4. And its pretty obvious from Bill's statements what type of 3-4 he's intending to run. I suggest reading up on the 3-4 defense.

[Rack Bauer]

Rack, you simply don't understand the 3-4. I never said there isn't a strong and weak side. You just don't understand the roles of the OLBs in the 3-4. And its pretty obvious from Bill's statements what type of 3-4 he's intending to run. I suggest reading up on the 3-4 defense.


! LMFAO!

:lmao2:


Wow. It's funny cuz I know there's a few KNOWLEDGEABLE posters here that read that and laughed their *** off.


This is literally just like reading a post of someone telling me that 2+2 is 5. Hilarious.

[theogt]

I'm sorry, but it's true. I have no doubt that you understand the 4-3 defense. Most casual fans do. Your statements, however, constantly show a fundamental misunderstanding of the 3-4 defense and the role of the OLBs in that 3-4 defense.

[Rack Bauer]

Oh ok. My mistake.


It's obvious to everyone here that you have a great understanding of LBs and the 3-4 defense.



Seriously, you're a joke. You're good for a laugh now and then. There's plenty of people here that know as much or more about football then I do. You aren't one of them. You aren't even close. Hell I currently PLAY in a 3-4 defense (semi-pro) but you know more about the 3-4 then I do.

Yeah. :rolleyes:

[theogt]

Seriously, you're a joke. You're good for a laugh now and then. There's plenty of people here that know as much or more about football then I do. You aren't one of them. You aren't even close. Hell I currently PLAY in a 3-4 defense (semi-pro) but you know more about the 3-4 then I do.

Yeah. :rolleyes:Look, I don't care if you coached the 3-4 in the friggin' NFL. Your statements are ridiculous and show a complete misunderstanding of whats going on.

[Rack Bauer]

Look, I don't care if you coached the 3-4 in the friggin' NFL. Your statements are ridiculous and show a complete misunderstanding of whats going on.


What "substance" you add to the debate.

I read you accusing me of not knowing about the 3-4, yet I don't see you actually picking out any specific thing I'm actually wrong about.


And we both know the reason for that. You don't know you're talking about.


I say again, you're a joke. You're MannyLove is reaching Nors' Tye Law levels. You should see a doctor. While you're there, ask him to teach you a thing or two about the 3-4 cuz I KNOW he knows more about it then you do.

[theogt]

What "substance" you add to the debate.

I read you accusing me of not knowing about the 3-4, yet I don't see you actually picking out any specific thing I'm actually wrong about.


And we both know the reason for that. You don't know you're talking about.


I say again, you're a joke. You're MannyLove is reaching Nors' Tye Law levels. You should see a doctor. While you're there, ask him to teach you a thing or two about the 3-4 cuz I KNOW he knows more about it then you do.I've pointed the substance out many times, Rack. I can do it again for you. In the 3-4 defense, the LOLB does not have the traditional role of the SLB of the 4-3. The LOLB has a couple different responsibilities Sometimes he must cover the TE. Sometimes he simply acts as the LDE in a 4-3 defense. In both occasions, it is the LILB that has the run-stopping duties. Even in the traditional offensive line up that makes the LOLB the SOLB that is a misnomer. His responsibility isn't to stop the run. That's the responsibility of the LILB because in both instances he "slides over" and acts as the traditional 4-3 SLB. The LOLB's responsibility is usually either to 1. cover the TE or 2. get to the QB.

When selecting a LOLB for our type of 3-4, the emphasis is first placed on pass-rushing ability. The benefit of our 3-4 is that the QB doesn't know where the rush is coming from. Either the LOLB or the ROLB can act as a 4-3 DE in that sense.

Your mistake is thinking that the LOLB is the SOLB in the sense that his duty is run-stopping. That's the duty primarily of the LILB.

[Vintage]

I've pointed the substance out many times, Rack. I can do it again for you. In the 3-4 defense, the LOLB does not have the traditional role of the SLB of the 4-3. The LOLB has a couple different responsibilities Sometimes he must cover the TE. Sometimes he simply acts as the LDE in a 4-3 defense. In both occasions, it is the LILB that has the run-stopping duties. Even in the traditional offensive line up that makes the LOLB the SOLB that is a misnomer. His responsibility isn't to stop the run. That's the responsibility of the LILB because in both instances he "slides over" and acts as the traditional 4-3 SLB. The LOLB's responsibility is usually either to 1. cover the TE or 2. get to the QB.

When selecting a LOLB for our type of 3-4, the emphasis is first placed on pass-rushing ability. The benefit of our 3-4 is that the QB doesn't know where the rush is coming from. Either the LOLB or the ROLB can act as a 4-3 DE in that sense.

Your mistake is thinking that the LOLB is the SOLB in the sense that his duty is run-stopping. That's the duty primarily of the LILB.


Yes, your ILB have to be good at run stopping in the 3-4, or you will get killed. That doesn't mean the SOLB doesn't have a slightly different role than the WOLB. Again, teams typically run right.

The SOLB has to be good at taking on/shedding blocks. Also, he must be able to cover. I am not saying its not important for him to be a pass rusher either; but it doesn't have to be his #1 strength. The other things, coverage of TE's, jamming, ability to take on blocks/shed blocks are equally, if not more important at the SOLB spot.

The WOLB is your pass rusher. Lawson is that.

Ware is that.

We need a SOLB.

Carpenter is that. And Carpenter can also play inside too. That's just an added bonus, bec. it allows us flexibility.

[theogt]

Yes, your ILB have to be good at run stopping in the 3-4, or you will get killed. That doesn't mean the SOLB doesn't have a slightly different role than the WOLB. Again, teams typically run right.

The SOLB has to be good at taking on/shedding blocks. Also, he must be able to cover. I am not saying its not important for him to be a pass rusher either; but it doesn't have to be his #1 strength. The other things, coverage of TE's, jamming, ability to take on blocks/shed blocks are equally, if not more important at the SOLB spot.

The WOLB is your pass rusher. Lawson is that.

Ware is that.

We need a SOLB.

Carpenter is that. And Carpenter can also play inside too. That's just an added bonus, bec. it allows us flexibility.You're getting closer to being right. Still not there yet, though.

[Rack Bauer]

I've pointed the substance out many times, Rack. I can do it again for you. In the 3-4 defense, the LOLB does not have the traditional role of the SLB of the 4-3..


Yes, a STRONG side Outside LB has the same responsibilities in a 3-4 that he has in a 4-3. In fact, due to not have as many defensive lineman to eat blocks a SOLB in the 3-4 must be even BETTER against the run then a 4-3 SLB.

If you knew half as much about the 3-4 as you think you do, you'd know this.



The LOLB has a couple different responsibilities Sometimes he must cover the TE.


The STRONG SIDE Outside LB in the 3-4 has to sometimes cover TEs, but the SLB in the 4-3 doesn't? You know even less about football then I originally though, and trust me, I didn't think you knew much.



Sometimes he simply acts as the LDE in a 4-3 defense.


Wow. So a SLB in a 4-3 acts as a DE sometimes? Why, cuz 4 defensive linemen isn't enough for the 4-3? They sometimes need one more?


It's funny watching you dig your own grave.



Even in the traditional offensive line up that makes the LOLB the SOLB that is a misnomer.


How can someone debate with you when you still don't even understand the difference between a SOLB and a LOLB?



His responsibility isn't to stop the run.


:lmao2:


Yeah, take on lineman out (a 4-3) and add a LB (3-4) and that extra LBs job isn't to stop the run. :rolleyes:

My god you're hilarious. I am literally laughing right now. :laugh2:



The LOLB's responsibility is usually either to 1. cover the TE or 2. get to the QB.


If the LOLB is on the weakside, he has ZERO responsibility covering the TE. Why? Cuz if the TE is lined up on the right, the LOLB is teh WEAKSIDE OLB.



Also, so what does the SOLB do when it's a run? Play pattycake with the other OLB?



When selecting a LOLB for our type of 3-4, the emphasis is first placed on pass-rushing ability


No, it isn't. As I stated before, since you have on LESS defensive linemen the SOLB has even MORE run stopping responsibility then the SLB in a 4-3.

Really, that should be common sense. But in your case...



Your mistake is thinking that the LOLB is the SOLB in the sense that his duty is run-stopping.


Well, I'm right about that so it's YOUR mistake thinking the STRONGSIDE OLB has no (as you put it) run stopping duties.



The ONLY key difference between a Sam in a 3-4 and a Sam in a 4-3 is that the Sam in a 3-4 has to ALSO have some pass rush abilities. But the run stopping duties in a 3-4 are even MORE important in a Sam in the 3-4 due to not getting as much support from the DL (1 less Defensive lineman incase you weren't following along).



You're getting closer to being right. Still not there yet, though.



:lmao2:

[Vintage]

Bascially, Rack summed it up.

I can't talk much right now....I am trying to drink. As soon as my power half hour (60 shots of beer, 30 minutes) is over, I will be back to post more.

PBR is bad beer to do this with.

The only idea I had worse than this was starting it with actual shots of alcohol.

[theogt]

Rack. Please re-read my post and then edit your post. You misread so many things I don't know where to start.

I strongly question your ability to read, much less understand defenses.

[Deep_Freeze]

All I know is one thing, players with Carpenter's ability are easier to find than players with Manny's measurables. We can use Manny as a situational pass rusher til he is up to speed on the rest of what he needs to do as a OLB. We still have Singleton on the roster, and can use both of them depending on the situation.

Sure, I believe that Carpenter will be ready quicker to play full time, but this year we can also use Singleton (since we are paying him, lol) along with Manny, then next year or towards the end of the season, we can start to use Manny full time.

I like them both, and Wimbley for that matter. Carpenter will be ready almost immediately, IMO, which is an obvious advantage for him. But there are more ways peel this orange, and I think that aspect is being ignored.

[Rack Bauer]

Rack. Please re-read my post and then edit your post. You misread so many things I don't know where to start.


I didn't misread anything. I quoted each part individually so I obviously went over each part individually.


I already know what I knew before, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You know less about the 3-4 then my sister.

[theogt]

I didn't misread anything. I quoted each part individually so I obviously went over each part individually.


I already know what I knew before, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You know less about the 3-4 then my sister.Rack, you completely misread it. You thought I was referring to one thing when I was talking about another. Are you drunk on this Sunday afternoon? :beer1:

[Woods]

All I know is one thing, players with Carpenter's ability are easier to find than players with Manny's measurables. We can use Manny as a situational pass rusher til he is up to speed on the rest of what he needs to do as a OLB. We still have Singleton on the roster, and can use both of them depending on the situation.

Sure, I believe that Carpenter will be ready quicker to play full time, but this year we can also use Singleton (since we are paying him, lol) along with Manny, then next year or towards the end of the season, we can start to use Manny full time.

I like them both, and Wimbley for that matter. But there are more ways peel this orange, and I think that aspect is being ignored.


Wouldn't it be ironic that after all the various discussions on which of the 3 OLBs to draft, we end up drafting one on Day 2 instead? :laugh2:

[Vintage]

All I know is one thing, players with Carpenter's ability are easier to find than players with Manny's measurables. We can use Manny as a situational pass rusher til he is up to speed on the rest of what he needs to do as a OLB. We still have Singleton on the roster, and can use both of them depending on the situation.

Sure, I believe that Carpenter will be ready quicker to play full time, but this year we can also use Singleton (since we are paying him, lol) along with Manny, then next year or towards the end of the season, we can start to use Manny full time.

I like them both, and Wimbley for that matter. But there are more ways peel this orange, and I think that aspect is being ignored.

Really? Players that can cover, jam, rush the passer, take on blockers, shed blockers.......are common?

Is that why NE has such an interest in Carpenter? Because he is that common?

[Vintage]

Rack, you completely misread it. You thought I was referring to one thing when I was talking about another. Are you drunk on this Sunday afternoon? :beer1:

I am working on it as I type.

No lie.

[theogt]

I am working on it as I type.

No lie.I wish I could say the same. I have too many irons in the fire right now though.

[Deep_Freeze]

Wouldn't it be ironic that after all the various discussions on which of the 3 OLBs to draft, we end up drafting one on Day 2 instead? :laugh2:

I wouldn't be against that, just depends on who we get, lol.

[Vintage]

Wouldn't it be ironic that after all the various discussions on which of the 3 OLBs to draft, we end up drafting one on Day 2 instead? :laugh2:

If Justice somehow slipped to 18, and Joseph was there in round two, and Anthony Smith in round three.

I might actually cry with rejoice.

[Deep_Freeze]

Really? Players that can cover, jam, rush the passer, take on blockers, shed blockers.......are common?

Is that why NE has such an interest in Carpenter? Because he is that common?

Not saying it is common, just saying that we can find an experienced LB via free agency that has a similar set of skills that Carpenter has. To Carpenter's credit, there are few young guys you can actually draft with his skill set though, instead of picking up a veteran.

[Rack Bauer]

Not saying it is common, just saying that we can find an experienced LB via free agency that has a similar set of skills that Carpenter has. To Carpenter's credit, there are few young guys you can actually draft with his skill set though, instead of picking up a veteran.


Name 1 OLB available in FA with those skills.


Even if you could think of one (you can't) he wouldn't have Carpenters instincts and passion for the game.


If there's anything you can find on a yearly basis it's a tweener that runs a 4.4-4.5 but has poor instincts.

[Vintage]

I'd love to hear about a free agent who can do that....

[Deep_Freeze]

Name 1 OLB available in FA with those skills.


Even if you could think of one (you can't) he wouldn't have Carpenters instincts and passion for the game.


If there's anything you can find on a yearly basis it's a tweener that runs a 4.4-4.5 but has poor instincts.

Well, Derek Smith is pretty good, heck we got one in Ayodele. My point is that if a guy fits your tweener with no instincts role, those are guys that are usually not signed by anyone anyway.

[Vintage]

Well, Derek Smith is pretty good, heck we got one in Ayodele. My point is that if a guy fits your tweener with no instincts role, those are guys that are usually not signed by anyone anyway.

Smith is an ILB. Secondly, Ayodele is playing ILB for us.

Carpenter can play both ILB and OLB. He has those aforementioned skills with the ability to rush the passer well.

[Deep_Freeze]

Smith is an ILB. Secondly, Ayodele is playing ILB for us.

Carpenter can play both ILB and OLB. He has those aforementioned skills with the ability to rush the passer well.

Ayodele did play on the outside though, but that's not the point. These are rookies, and it is pretty unknown what impact they will have when they actually lineup in the NFL.

I have said many times, I don't care who we draft at OLB, I was just supporting the fact that Manny could be used just as well as Carpenter, the main difference is we would have to wait a bit on Manny and use Singleton in the meantime til Manny is ready.

Carpenter will be ready sooner and presents a much more complete package up front. Manny will need some time to develop, but if given this time, he could develop into a truely freakish talent.

This team is built to win now, so we might not can wait on Manny. But that ain't my decision to make.

[Vintage]

Ayodele did play on the outside though, but that's not the point. These are rookies, and it is pretty unknown what impact they will have when they actually lineup in the NFL.

I have said many times, I don't care who we draft at OLB, I was just supporting the fact that Manny could be used just as well as Carpenter, the main difference is we would have to wait a bit on Manny and use Singleton in the meantime til Manny is ready.

Carpenter will be ready sooner and presents a much more complete package up front. Manny will need some time to develop, but if given this time, he could develop into a truely freakish talent.

This team is built to win now, so we might not can wait on Manny. But that ain't my decision to make.

He played OLB in a 4-3. Typically, that projects to an ILB in a 3-4. I agree....Manny could develop into a freak. But the key word in that sentence is "could."

Carpenter appears to be ready for day one. Ware did fine from day one. He seems to be the exception; not the norm. Just something to keep in mind, as well.

[Deep_Freeze]

He played OLB in a 4-3. Typically, that projects to an ILB in a 3-4. I agree....Manny could develop into a freak. But the key word in that sentence is "could."

Carpenter appears to be ready for day one. Ware did fine from day one. He seems to be the exception; not the norm. Just something to keep in mind, as well.

Question is, do you want to keep banging out hits or go for a homerun?

Personally, I could care less. I do know one thing, we aren't in a position to wait on someone, we need to win now, which would fit Carpenter. But does BP think he can hit a homerun with Manny? Who knows, the only thing we do know is the decision between the two (if both are available and BP chooses one) could be very telling of our direction for the future.

[AsthmaField]

Ayodele did play on the outside though, but that's not the point. These are rookies, and it is pretty unknown what impact they will have when they actually lineup in the NFL.

I have said many times, I don't care who we draft at OLB, I was just supporting the fact that Manny could be used just as well as Carpenter, the main difference is we would have to wait a bit on Manny and use Singleton in the meantime til Manny is ready.

Carpenter will be ready sooner and presents a much more complete package up front. Manny will need some time to develop, but if given this time, he could develop into a truely freakish talent.

This team is built to win now, so we might not can wait on Manny. But that ain't my decision to make.

I agree with that. I think there's a good chance that we end up with Lawson, just like I think there's a good chance we end up with Carpenter.

That's a good point that we could use Singleton (who actually was pretty stout against the run) along with Manny for much of his first season. 3rd and 14? In you go Manny. Sic'em! Second and two? Don't let 'em get it Al. I would be fine with Manny. The main reason I'd be fine with him is because if we draft him... then Parcells must like what he see's and think he'll fit our needs and use him accordingly. If they pass on him, then odds are, they feel similar to Rack.

I'd be very happy with Carpenter too... and like Rack says, people I think, are really underestimating Bobby's ability to rush the passer. He's a good one and NFC East QB's will rue the day we draft him, if we do.

But I think there's a good chance they would rue the day we drafted Manny as well. You could stick Wimbley in this conversation anywhere you wanted to also. For all we know, Bill has him ranked well ahead of both Bobby and Manny.

So, for me, it all comes down to who Parcells takes on draft day... because as far as who is the best between Lawson, Carpenter and Wimbley... I'm lost as ****. The more I look and study, the less I know who I want. Any of the three would be fine with me, just like 99% of everyone on this forum.

I'm just looking forward to having someone opposite Ware finally. Let's see offenses spend all their resources trying to stop Ware next year... Manny/Bobby/Kamerion will make them regret it. And when they decide to stop the bleeding on the strongside, Ware will be all over them.

I can't wait.

[Sandman52]

I like the analysis that I am hearing about Lawson and Carpenter. The biggest question I have is, "is Carp's readiness for the SOLB really greater than Lawson's freak-like superstar potential?"

[theogt]

I like the analysis that I am hearing about Lawson and Carpenter. The biggest question I have is, "is Carp's readiness for the SOLB really greater than Lawson's freak-like superstar potential?"The answer to that question depends on who you talk to of course. I think Carpenter's advantages are overstated and Lawson's advantages are pretty apparent. Others don't think so. Meh, it's an interesting debate nonetheless.

[Rack Bauer]

Question is, do you want to keep banging out hits or go for a homerun?


It's not possible that Carpenter can also be a homerun?



I like the analysis that I am hearing about Lawson and Carpenter. The biggest question I have is, "is Carp's readiness for the SOLB really greater than Lawson's freak-like superstar potential?"


Again, who says Carpenter can't also be a superstar?



I think Carpenter's advantages are overstated and Lawson's advantages are pretty apparent.


LMAO!



Meh, it's an interesting debate nonetheless

It would be more interesting if you actually had some knowledge to back up your claims.

[Bizwah]

This is a good thread.

I wouldn't complain with either player, really. Ireland and Parcells will have done their research.

But it's Carpenter for my money.

I remember people touting Lawson early in the year. I did research on him. Now, I can't remember where I read this, or even where I can find it. But I heard some pretty worrisome things about Lawson.

One poster stated that he covered TEs as a LB, and covered them well. That's not what I read. I read that part of the reason he was moved to DE was because he had a difficult time in coverage. Kinda weird considering his freakish athleticism.

He also had weaknesses against the run. This is the biggest knock against him that I kept reading. He tried to run around blockers instead of taking them on, opening massive holes.

There are mixed opinions about his ability to add weight in the NFL. Some people say he has the frame to add about 20 pounds or so.....others say he doesn't.

I read that he isn't physical. That's definitely NOT what we need at any LB position.

Now, take this all with a grain of salt. These are merely things that I've read. I wouldn't be at all opposed to seeing us draft him. But I'd rather have Carpenter.

Oh, BTW......

Lawson measured out at 238 pounds on his Pro-Day....If he plays at that weight, he'll get crushed.

[speedkilz88]

Clark Haggans 6-4 243

[theogt]

LMAO!LMAO!

[Deep_Freeze]

I like the analysis that I am hearing about Lawson and Carpenter. The biggest question I have is, "is Carp's readiness for the SOLB really greater than Lawson's freak-like superstar potential?"

To me, it is more of what the individual team is looking for. Problem is, we need a big time pass rusher and we need someone ready to play right now, but we aren't in the position to draft AJ Hawk, lol. Both Lawson and Carpenter had dominating top 5 picks on the opposite side from them so they weren't the players receiving double teams.

Funny thing is both would contribute greatly to our team, but neither get me to the point where I wouldn't take the best player available regardless of position.

[Rack Bauer]

LMAO!


Good to see you learning to laugh at yourself. Once you master that art, in your case, you'll be laughing 24/7.

[Vintage]

OK.....I am ready to contribute with 100% drunkeness.


Anyways, Carpenter is the perfect fit for us at SOLB for the reasons I continually mention. He can jam, cover, take on blockers, shed blockers, has good size and speed, and is an all around player able to play ILB and SOLB.

Lawson is a pass rusher who would fit in best at WOLB.

Ware plays WOLB.

Again, unless we plan on mobing Ware to SOLB, Carpenter is the perfect fit.

He can contribute from day one and will continue to get better.

[theogt]

Good to see you learning to laugh at yourself. Once you master that art, in your case, you'll be laughing 24/7.It's been sufficient so far to simply laugh at you. LMAO!

[Rack Bauer]

It's been sufficient so far to simply laugh at you. LMAO!


Ignorance is bliss.

And by god you are full of bliss, among other things.

[theogt]

Ignorance is bliss.Now I understand your obsession with smiley face emoticons.

[Rack Bauer]

Now I understand your obsession with smiley face emoticons.



:rolleyes:


That's the one that best describes my thoughts towards you.


Or this one...


:lmao2:


This is the way I think you look when someone tries to explain basic football to you...

:confused:


^^^ By the way, that emoticon is called "confused".



Nobody in their right mind will post one of these after reading one of your posts...

:hammer:



Maybe your football knowledge, or lack thereof, could be attributed to too many accidents where you got hit in the head...

:rake:



This might as well be you when you're trying to evaluate a football player...

:blind:



In the end, all I can say to you is...


:yousuck:

and

:moon:

[theogt]

Your profile says you're 34, but I suspect that's off by 3 decades.

[Rack Bauer]

Your profile says you're 34, but I suspect that's off by 3 decades.



Yes, and you're the epitomy of maturity.


Here's this one again... :rolleyes:


:jerk:

And there's a new one for you.


By the way, you sure added a ton of "Substance" to this thread. A fecal substance.

[theogt]

Wow. Just. Wow.

[Rack Bauer]

Wow. Just. Wow.


Surprised? I figured you'd be use to your own garbage by now.

[Vintage]

So rack is 64?

[Rack Bauer]

So rack is 64?



:fogeys: :geezer: