What if...

[RoundRock Fan]

Haloti Ngata begins to slide? Move up/Stay pat/Trade down?

[Clove]

Haloti Ngata begins to slide? Move up/Stay pat/Trade down?If he moves within 3 spots, I'm moving forward.

[dmoore]

If he drops past the Ravens, I'd say there would be a good shot he'd fall to us. I don't think that happens though, I can't see him getting past Baltimore or Buffalo. I guess there's always a chance though. He'd make a nice addition to our D.

[Clove]

If he drops past the Ravens, I'd say there would be a good shot he'd fall to us. I don't think that happens though, I can't see him getting past Baltimore or Buffalo. I guess there's always a chance though. He'd make a nice addition to our D.The only problem is, you don't have to be a 3-4 team to want Ngata. He can play in any scheme, so he is a danger to go at any point in the 1st round (outside of the 1st 5 to 6 picks)

[dmoore]

The only problem is, you don't have to be a 3-4 team to want Ngata. He can play in any scheme, so he is a danger to go at any point in the 1st round (outside of the 1st 5 to 6 picks)
That is true, but looking at the teams between us and Baltimore, I don't think a DT is on top of their list. If anything, I could see a team moving into those slots to get him. Anyways, I can't wait for this draft to start. I've been looking forward to this weekend for months. It's gonna be interesting to see how things play out.

[ABQCOWBOY]

If he doesn't get taken by Buffalo, I think there's a real good chance that he slides to us. If that happens, then I'd be for taking him at 18. The interesting thing here is that I honestly believe that either he or Bunkley could be there. If one of those DTs is available at 18, what do we do? I say we take one or the other and be happy about getting a quality player.

[Arch Stanton]

If he moves within 3 spots, I'm moving forward.

Please let it be so.....:pray2:

[ABQCOWBOY]

This is really an interesting scenario IMO. Bunkley and Ngata are both there at the Bills pick, eight overall, which way do they go? Barring trades, they may not go DT here. They could go QB with whichever one is left, they could go OLB which they need badley, they could go with a guy like Huff to replace Troy Vincent who is about 100 years old now or they could go TE if SF doesn't take Davis, which is a real possability IMO. I don't think DT is a certainty at this spot.

Who's the next team that might take a DT? Could be Arizona with a 3 technique, which Bunkley would fit nicely but they have a lot of needs. I don't know that this is there biggest.

It's probably Cleveland. Who would Cleveland take, if they were going to take one of these players? I think that again, it would be Bunkley because I don't really think they need a NT so much as they need a DE. Bunkley could easily be that in a 34 IMO. However, they may like OLB better. If indeed this is what they value, we could see both NTs slide.

I think Baltimore would snatch Bunkley up in this situation but it could be Ngata.

I don't think Philly would take a DT. I don't think Miami would take one. I don't think the Vikes would take one. Denver might take one but there needs are at LB, Tackle, WR and RCB as well. I don't know that DT would be there first choice here. That would leave Ngata available at our pick 18 is the draft were to fall that way.

If he is there, would we take him? I think we would probably have to. There might be trade down options here with a team like Cincy who could probably use a big DT to replace Adams or maybe NYG one pick down. A big tackle like Ngata would really solidify there DL but then I look at there OLBs and secondary and I just think what we would want might not make it cost effective for them. The Jets could use a player like Ngate and they would have the picks to move around with IMO. Could be interesting if it fell this way.

[Rack Bauer]

The fins play the 3-4 now, who is their NG?


Just wondering.

[jbsg02]

If Bunkley is the first DT taken then I think there's a chance Ngata falls

[Rack Bauer]

If Bunkley is the first DT taken then I think there's a chance Ngata falls


Ngata very well could fall, but I doubt Bunkley has anything to do with it.

Both Cleveland and Baltimore need a DT. If he gets by them, then we have to worry about Miami.


If he gets passed all three of them you have to wonder what they know about him to pass on him. They can ask him when he shows up for his press conference being introduced as the newest dallas cowboy. :D

[ABQCOWBOY]

The fins play the 3-4 now, who is their NG?


Just wondering.

Keith Traylor

Manny Wright
6-6 329 lbs
2nd year USC.
Supplemental draft.

[Qwickdraw]

What if Haloti Ngata begins to slide? Move up/Stay pat/Trade down?
I'd get out of his way...:eek:

:laugh2:

[Rack Bauer]

Keith Traylor

Manny Wright
6-6 329 lbs
2nd year USC.
Supplemental draft.


Ahh, Wright is the guy that cried, right?

Traylor is old and backed up by a baby. Yeah, they'd draft Ngata if they had the chance.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Ngata very well could fall, but I doubt Bunkley has anything to do with it.

Both Cleveland and Baltimore need a DT. If he gets by them, then we have to worry about Miami.


If he gets passed all three of them you have to wonder what they know about him to pass on him. They can ask him when he shows up for his press conference being introduced as the newest dallas cowboy. :D

I don't know about that Rack. Cleveland has Jason Fisk and Ted Washington. I absolutly think they could use a DT but do they need a DT as bad as they need a RDE? Right now, they don't have a guy on there roster who can play the position. Look at there LBs as well. They have Matt Stewart, Andrea Davis, Ben Taylor and McGinest as starters. Behind them, there is nothing. Even there RCB spot is in terrible shape. Safety could use real help. They got a lot of holes defensively. Trade down could be the deal here or any number of positions. It could all come down to who is rated highest on there board. It may not be a DT.

Baltimore, they do need a DT but they also need a RB and MLB and maybe a QB if one is there.

[Rack Bauer]

I don't know about that Rack. Cleveland has Jason Fisk and Ted Washington. I absolutly think they could use a DT but do they need a DT as bad as they need a RDE? Right now, they don't have a guy on there roster who can play the position. Look at there LBs as well. They have Matt Stewart, Andrea Davis, Ben Taylor and McGinest as starters. Behind them, there is nothing. Even there RCB spot is in terrible shape. Safety could use real help. They got a lot of holes defensively. Trade down could be the deal here or any number of positions. It could all come down to who is rated highest on there board. It may not be a DT.

Baltimore, they do need a DT but they also need a RB and MLB and maybe a QB if one is there.


My best friend is a Browns fan. Fisk was absolute garbage for them last year. Washington is 75 years old.

If Ngata makes it to them, they'll likely draft him. And about their LBs, Chaun Thompson is one of their starters.

And yes, Baltimore does need a DT. All they've got is ... forgot that fat white guy's name. But they don't have anyone else. They don't play the 3-4 anymore so they need to quality starters, not just one.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Ahh, Wright is the guy that cried, right?

Traylor is old and backed up by a baby. Yeah, they'd draft Ngata if they had the chance.


Perhaps but two things here. Miami may be going to a 34 but I don't know that they will be able to do that this year. They have Zach Thomas at MLB and nobody else that can play the other IBL position, assuming Thomas can play it, which I doubt. They still have Vonnie Holliday under contract which would be a cap hit because he's not going to be able to play NT in a 34. He might be able to play DE in a 34 but I don't know. You look at this teams CBs and all you got is cricket chirps. They got nobody and at there draft spot, that might just be the pick. I don't think you can say that NT is there for sure pick.

[ABQCOWBOY]

My best friend is a Browns fan. Fisk was absolute garbage for them last year. Washington is 75 years old.

If Ngata makes it to them, they'll likely draft him. And about their LBs, Chaun Thompson is one of their starters.

And yes, Baltimore does need a DT. All they've got is ... forgot that fat white guy's name. But they don't have anyone else. They don't play the 3-4 anymore so they need to quality starters, not just one.

This team has a lot of holes. NT would not be a bad pick but there far from being able to say that NT is there pick for sure. As I said earlier, it depends on who is rated where on there board.

Kelly Gregg and Jim Bannon are the DTs in Baltimore. While you look at it and say they need a DT, they actually got pretty damn good production out of these two. Gregg got 61 tackles to go with 2.5 sacks last year. He's missed two games in 4 years. Bannon is a 5th year guy they got from Buffalo. He had 40 tackles last year with 1.5 sacks. I honestly don't think this is there most critical need position. They can easily pick a guy up later to fill out the rotation. They have bigger needs, IMO along the OL and at RB then they do at DT.

[Rack Bauer]

Perhaps but two things here. Miami may be going to a 34 but I don't know that they will be able to do that this year. They have Zach Thomas at MLB and nobody else that can play the other IBL position, assuming Thomas can play it, which I doubt. They still have Vonnie Holliday under contract which would be a cap hit because he's not going to be able to play NT in a 34. He might be able to play DE in a 34 but I don't know. You look at this teams CBs and all you got is cricket chirps. They got nobody and at there draft spot, that might just be the pick. I don't think you can say that NT is there for sure pick.


They went to a 3-4 last season. :D

[Rack Bauer]

This team has a lot of holes. NT would not be a bad pick but there far from being able to say that NT is there pick for sure. As I said earlier, it depends on who is rated where on there board.

Kelly Gregg and Jim Bannon are the DTs in Baltimore. While you look at it and say they need a DT, they actually got pretty damn good production out of these two. Gregg got 61 tackles to go with 2.5 sacks last year. He's missed two games in 4 years. Bannon is a 5th year guy they got from Buffalo. He had 40 tackles last year with 1.5 sacks. I honestly don't think this is there most critical need position. They can easily pick a guy up later to fill out the rotation. They have bigger needs, IMO along the OL and at RB then they do at DT.


They are in a position to take the BPA since they don't have great players at many positions. If Ngata were there, he would likely be the BPA. Plus, it would be filling a vital role in the 3-4 defense. He could even play DE and NG till Washington finally retires.


And the Browns have Reuben Droughns. They just gave him a new contract. They won't be drafting a RB in the first. He was their first 1000 yard rusher since 1985. Their OL has been worked on quite a bit the last two seasons. And they picked up Bentley this year. Aside from Justice, there won't be an OL available that is anywhere near worth that pick.


Also, it's not just 3-4 teams we have to worry about. Ngata could play in the 4-3 as well.

[ABQCOWBOY]

They went to a 3-4 last season. :D


If they did, I don't know who played LB for them. They have no ILBs on that team. They have needs outside of NT and there is no getting around that. They may take a NT, I would not say that's out of the question but in a 34, your impact players are LBs. If you have a chance to aquire one, I think you take one. NTs can be drafted later, as you well know. It would not surprise me to see it happen but I don't think that it's written in stone by a long shot. More likely to me that they would try and trade down. Would make more sense for them to do so IMO.

[Rack Bauer]

If they did, I don't know who played LB for them. They have no ILBs on that team. They have needs outside of NT and there is no getting around that. They may take a NT, I would not say that's out of the question but in a 34, your impact players are LBs. If you have a chance to aquire one, I think you take one. NTs can be drafted later, as you well know. It would not surprise me to see it happen but I don't think that it's written in stone by a long shot. More likely to me that they would try and trade down. Would make more sense for them to do so IMO.


They have Zach Thomas at ILB.


They drafted Channing Crowder last year, and he did pretty well for them at OLB.

Plus, they didn't go to a 3-4 fulltime last year. They'll likely do it this year though.

And I wouldn't say that LBs are the only Impact players in the 3-4. I don't care who the LBs are, if you don't have a solid NG, you won't stop the run.

[Barbarino]

Fisk was released when the Browns picked up Washington. Browns GM Savage all ready said that the Brown WILL take Ngate if he is there PERIOD, he doesn't except him to be there.

The Rams might take Ngata also.

[ABQCOWBOY]

They are in a position to take the BPA since they don't have great players at many positions. If Ngata were there, he would likely be the BPA. Plus, it would be filling a vital role in the 3-4 defense. He could even play DE and NG till Washington finally retires.


And the Browns have Reuben Droughns. They just gave him a new contract. They won't be drafting a RB in the first. He was their first 1000 yard rusher since 1985. Their OL has been worked on quite a bit the last two seasons. And they picked up Bentley this year. Aside from Justice, there won't be an OL available that is anywhere near worth that pick.


Also, it's not just 3-4 teams we have to worry about. Ngata could play in the 4-3 as well.

I don't know about this. I think Ngata could play NT in a 34 or 1 or 2 technique in a 43 but I don't know about a DE in a 34. If your gonna do that, it would make more sense to waite and take a guy like Wroten later in the draft. As far as the rest, you still come down to the same thing. You don't have enough LBs on your roster to be effective in a 34. Ngata is a definate possability but there's no way in the world that he's written in stone at this spot. To me, the best thing these guys could do is trade down, pick up picks and take a LB later in the first round. That would be the smart way to go IMO.

[Rack Bauer]

My best friend is a Browns fan.


Fisk was released when the Browns picked up Washington. Browns GM Savage all ready said that the Brown WILL take Ngate if he is there PERIOD, he doesn't except him to be there.

The Rams might take Ngata also.


Speak of the devil...


ABQ, Barbarino. Barbarino, ABQ.

[Rack Bauer]

I don't know about this. I think Ngata could play NT in a 34 or 1 or 2 technique in a 43 but I don't know about a DE in a 34. If your gonna do that, it would make more sense to waite and take a guy like Wroten later in the draft. As far as the rest, you still come down to the same thing. You don't have enough LBs on your roster to be effective in a 34. Ngata is a definate possability but there's no way in the world that he's written in stone at this spot. To me, the best thing these guys could do is trade down, pick up picks and take a LB later in the first round. That would be the smart way to go IMO.


You didn't read the whole statement. They'd play him at DE for 1 year, then move him to NG next year (and cut Washington). They'd get more out of him doing it that way instead of rotating him at NG with Washington.

[ABQCOWBOY]

They have Zach Thomas at ILB.


They drafted Channing Crowder last year, and he did pretty well for them at OLB.

Plus, they didn't go to a 3-4 fulltime last year. They'll likely do it this year though.

And I wouldn't say that LBs are the only Impact players in the 3-4. I don't care who the LBs are, if you don't have a solid NG, you won't stop the run.

You know as well as I do Rack that NGs in a 34 are generally not 1st round picks. LBs are. You can get a NT that will work in a later round. Not saying it's a bad pick by any means but if Ngata is there and you have the chance to trade out of the pick and move down and get a LB like Carpenter later, why wouldn't you consider this?

I would not be surprised to see them pick Ngata but I would not bet the farm on it either.

[Rack Bauer]

As far as the rest, you still come down to the same thing.

And? You don't draft for need, and it's a lot harder to find a good NG then it is to find LBs for a 3-4. They have 3 that can play in the 3-4 now. All they need is a WOLB (aka the Tweener) and there will likely be some of those available for the 2nd and 3rd round picks.


It comes down to value. Who is the better value? Ngata or ANY of the LBs in this draft not named Hawk? Ngata by far. The only LB that comes close (that they need) is Lawson. I could see them drafting Lawson, but only if Ngata isn't available. Ngata is still the better player.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Fisk was released when the Browns picked up Washington. Browns GM Savage all ready said that the Brown WILL take Ngate if he is there PERIOD, he doesn't except him to be there.

The Rams might take Ngata also.


I would be very skeptical of any GM who came out weeks ahead of the draft and gave away your draft strategy to anybody who would listen.

As for the Rams, they have Pickett, Kennedy and Glover on the roster right now at DT. They have no CBs or LBs to speak of. I don't know what they will do but I'm not so sure it would be a DT.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Speak of the devil...


ABQ, Barbarino. Barbarino, ABQ.

Barbarino, welcome to the board.

[ABQCOWBOY]

You didn't read the whole statement. They'd play him at DE for 1 year, then move him to NG next year (and cut Washington). They'd get more out of him doing it that way instead of rotating him at NG with Washington.

Well Rack, we could do this all day but it's still a real possability this team could trade down. It would make more sense for them to do so IMO. They got a lot of holes to fill. It could be that the value for them could be OLB at a lower position while picking up picks. It's tough to know what will happen here. So many players that are right there IMO. Ngata, to me, is not one of the 10 or 12 guys that might be Blue Chip. I think he's just below that.

[Rack Bauer]

You know as well as I do Rack that NGs in a 34 are generally not 1st round picks. LBs are. You can get a NT that will work in a later round. Not saying it's a bad pick by any means but if Ngata is there and you have the chance to trade out of the pick and move down and get a LB like Carpenter later, why wouldn't you consider this?

I would not be surprised to see them pick Ngata but I would not bet the farm on it either.


Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong.


3-4 teams:

Browns: 1 first round LB (McGinest).

Dolphins: None.

Patriots: None.

Steelers: 1 (James Farior) and they didn't draft him. Casey Hampton is their NG (1st round pick).

Chargers: 1 (merriman).

Cowboys: 1 (Ware).

Niners: None.


No 3-4 team in the NFL has more then 1 first round pick on their team, and 2 of those teams didn't actually draft that player.


So out of 28 starting 3-4 LBs, 4 are first round picks.


Out of 7 starting NGs, at least 2 are first round picks (actually it might be more, I didn't research this. Just going by what I know) Hampton and Wilfork.


That's a higher percentage of 1st round NGs then 1st round 3-4 backers.


And none of that even matters. Again, it's about VALUE.

Should they take the BETTER NG that they NEED or the lesser OLB that they need? They need both. Why not take the better player?

[Rack Bauer]

Well Rack, we could do this all day but it's still a real possability this team could trade down. It would make more sense for them to do so IMO. They got a lot of holes to fill. It could be that the value for them could be OLB at a lower position while picking up picks. It's tough to know what will happen here. So many players that are right there IMO. Ngata, to me, is not one of the 10 or 12 guys that might be Blue Chip. I think he's just below that.


Very possible... If Ngata isn't there.

[Rack Bauer]

I would be very skeptical of any GM who came out weeks ahead of the draft and gave away your draft strategy to anybody who would listen.

As for the Rams, they have Pickett, Kennedy and Glover on the roster right now at DT. They have no CBs or LBs to speak of. I don't know what they will do but I'm not so sure it would be a DT.


Pickett is a Titan now. Kennedy is a bust (I predicted that one) and glover is a 3 technique and old. They very well could take Ngata.

[ABQCOWBOY]

And? You don't draft for need, and it's a lot harder to find a good NG then it is to find LBs for a 3-4. They have 3 that can play in the 3-4 now. All they need is a WOLB (aka the Tweener) and there will likely be some of those available for the 2nd and 3rd round picks.


It comes down to value. Who is the better value? Ngata or ANY of the LBs in this draft not named Hawk? Ngata by far. The only LB that comes close (that they need) is Lawson. I could see them drafting Lawson, but only if Ngata isn't available. Ngata is still the better player.

The problem is, you need 6 or 8 and they have 3. But more then that, I think the real problem here is how you view Ngata and how I view him. I don't think he's one of those can't miss guys. I think he's in the next mix. I can see you do view him that way. Your not alone. Several guys do. I've watched Ngata and while he can dominate, I've also seen him go away in games. Sometimes all game.

[Rack Bauer]

The problem is, you need 6 or 8 and they have 3. But more then that, I think the real problem here is how you view Ngata and how I view him. I don't think he's one of those can't miss guys. I think he's in the next mix. I can see you do view him that way. Your not alone. Several guys do. I've watched Ngata and while he can dominate, I've also seen him go away in games. Sometimes all game.


I never said Ngata was a can't miss player. I just said he's better then any LB in the draft not named Hawk.

[Barbarino]

3 LBer?

The Browns have Davis, Mcginest, Thompson, and Stewart(started for ALT 2 years ago).

Speegle and Mcmillan 2nd day pick last year.

[Rack Bauer]

Out of 7 starting NGs, at least 2 are first round picks (actually it might be more, I didn't research this. Just going by what I know) Hampton and Wilfork.


That's a higher percentage of 1st round NGs then 1st round 3-4 backers.


And none of that even matters. Again, it's about VALUE.

Should they take the BETTER NG that they NEED or the lesser OLB that they need? They need both. Why not take the better player?


Barbarino has informed me that Ted Washington was a first rounder too.

So that's almost half the starting 3-4 NGs in the NFL that were 1st rounders.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong.


3-4 teams:

Browns: 1 first round LB (McGinest).

Dolphins: None.

Patriots: None.

Steelers: 1 (James Farior) and they didn't draft him. Casey Hampton is their NG (1st round pick).

Chargers: 1 (merriman).

Cowboys: 1 (Ware).

Niners: None.


No 3-4 team in the NFL has more then 1 first round pick on their team, and 2 of those teams didn't actually draft that player.


So out of 28 starting 3-4 LBs, 4 are first round picks.


Out of 7 starting NGs, at least 2 are first round picks (actually it might be more, I didn't research this. Just going by what I know) Hampton and Wilfork.


That's a higher percentage of 1st round NGs then 1st round 3-4 backers.


And none of that even matters. Again, it's about VALUE.

Should they take the BETTER NG that they NEED or the lesser OLB that they need? They need both. Why not take the better player?

Dolphins have no LBs so they can't have any 1st LOL... Honestly, they don't have any 34 LBs in my opinion. They have an undersized guy who has heart but I think you know what I think about undersized LBs in a 34, or really, in any defensive scheme.

Can't argue with the Patriots but then again, who can draft like they can? In fact, the Patriots do make a practice of taking DTs high. They took Wilfork, Warran and Seymour all in the first round. There LBs, while not 1st round picks, are high picks. Katzenmoyer was a first round pick. Bruschi was a 3rd round pick. Johnson was a 2nd round pick. McGuinst was a 1st round pick although, he was a DE at USC. He was still a 1st round pick.

Pittsburgh, well, there current LBs are not high picks but they normally do take LBs high.

Kendrell Bell 2nd round. Joey Porter 3rd round. Steve Connely 3rd round. Jason Gildon 3rd round. Chad Brown 2nd round. Levon Kirkland 2nd round. Mike Vrabel in the 3rd. Huey Richards 1st round. That goes back a ways but you kind see what I'm getting at. On the other hand, the only DTs they've taken high are Casey Hampton 1st round, Kendrick Clancy in the 3rd and Joel Steed in the 3rd. I think that Hampton was out of the ordinary for what Pittsburgh normally does as opposed to the norm.


Chargers are pretty early into the 34 so I don't know if you can really go to school on what they've done just yet. Having said that, they took a LB first last year but they also drafted Castillo in the 1st last year and Olshansky in the 2nd the year before. Both are not playing DE but that's another story.

We took a LB 1st last year, we took Burnett in the 2nd and it looks as if we are tying to target another LB in the first this year. meanwhile, our DTs are UFAs or very low draft picks.

Niners are still at the clueless stage so what can you take from them. I look at the Old Falcons, the old Giants, the old Saints and look at those LBrs and where they were taken.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Pickett is a Titan now. Kennedy is a bust (I predicted that one) and glover is a 3 technique and old. They very well could take Ngata.

That's the point. They could take him but they could go in another direction as well. This whole discussion is about the DTs and where they might end up. I don't think there locked in stone anywhere is what I'm getting at.

[Rack Bauer]

Dolphins have no LBs so they can't have any 1st LOL... Honestly, they don't have any 34 LBs in my opinion. They have an undersized guy who has heart but I think you know what I think about undersized LBs in a 34, or really, in any defensive scheme.

Can't argue with the Patriots but then again, who can draft like they can? In fact, the Patriots do make a practice of taking DTs high. They took Wilfork, Warran and Seymour all in the first round. There LBs, while not 1st round picks, are high picks. Katzenmoyer was a first round pick. Bruschi was a 3rd round pick. Johnson was a 2nd round pick. McGuinst was a 1st round pick although, he was a DE at USC. He was still a 1st round pick.

Pittsburgh, well, there current LBs are not high picks but they normally do take LBs high.

Kendrell Bell 2nd round. Joey Porter 3rd round. Steve Connely 3rd round. Jason Gildon 3rd round. Chad Brown 2nd round. Levon Kirkland 2nd round. Mike Vrabel in the 3rd. Huey Richards 1st round. That goes back a ways but you kind see what I'm getting at. On the other hand, the only DTs they've taken high are Casey Hampton 1st round, Kendrick Clancy in the 3rd and Joel Steed in the 3rd. I think that Hampton was out of the ordinary for what Pittsburgh normally does as opposed to the norm.


Chargers are pretty early into the 34 so I don't know if you can really go to school on what they've done just yet. Having said that, they took a LB first last year but they also drafted Castillo in the 1st last year and Olshansky in the 2nd the year before. Both are not playing DE but that's another story.

We took a LB 1st last year, we took Burnett in the 2nd and it looks as if we are tying to target another LB in the first this year. meanwhile, our DTs are UFAs or very low draft picks.

Niners are still at the clueless stage so what can you take from them. I look at the Old Falcons, the old Giants, the old Saints and look at those LBrs and where they were taken.


Do you think Lawson will be a good 3-4 LB? If so, then he's a Jason Taylor clone.

Taylor is fine as a 3-4 WOLB.


Either way I proved you wrong. You said more 3-4 teams have first round picks at LB then they have NG, and you were wrong. And going by %'s, it's not even close. ;)



We took a LB 1st last year, we took Burnett in the 2nd and it looks as if we are tying to target another LB in the first this year. meanwhile, our DTs are UFAs or very low draft picks


You referred to the Pats starting DEs' (Seymour and Warren) as DTs, but when you refer to our DTs, you don't mention our DEs, one of which is a first rounder, and the other would of been a late first/early second if not for injuries.


Again, almost half the starting NGs in the NFL = First rounders. Less then 20% of the starting 3-4 LBs in the NFL were first round picks.


:D

[ABQCOWBOY]

I never said Ngata was a can't miss player. I just said he's better then any LB in the draft not named Hawk.


I do not agree with this statement.

[ABQCOWBOY]

3 LBer?

The Browns have Davis, Mcginest, Thompson, and Stewart(started for ALT 2 years ago).

Speegle and Mcmillan 2nd day pick last year.

Yeah, 3LBrs. I think you have Davis Taylor and Thompson. I think McGinest is there for the short haul only. I think McMillan has yet to prove he's anything. I think Stewart is what he is. a 6-3 236lbs LB who didn't make a lot of tackles last year, nor does he apply pressure. He's a LB who had his chance to be something in a 34 scheme but failed at it in Atlanta. Basically, I just don't think he's ever going to be a very good OLB in a 34.

[Paniolo22]

Hopefully the Fin's just take Greenway and leave us this tough decision.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Do you think Lawson will be a good 3-4 LB? If so, then he's a Jason Taylor clone.

Taylor is fine as a 3-4 WOLB.


Either way I proved you wrong. You said more 3-4 teams have first round picks at LB then they have NG, and you were wrong. And going by %'s, it's not even close. ;)






You referred to the Pats starting DEs' (Seymour and Warren) as DTs, but when you refer to our DTs, you don't mention our DEs, one of which is a first rounder, and the other would of been a late first/early second if not for injuries.


Again, almost half the starting NGs in the NFL = First rounders. Less then 20% of the starting 3-4 LBs in the NFL were first round picks.


:D

Wow, you edited the crap out of this one.

I don't love Lawson as much as some do. I talked about Lawson very early in the year but I always felt like he was a 3rd or 4th round OLB in a 34. Yeah, he has a chance to be good but he has to learn to be more physical IMO. I don't think he's a Taylor Clone. I think he's much closer to a Derrick Thomas. We will see if Taylor is fine as an OLB in a 34 or not. Before you say anybody is good or bad, you have to see it in action. To this point, Miami has not proven one way or the other. If it pleases you to say that you've proven me wrong, then so be it. The fact of the matter remains that only Pittsburgh and the Pats have had enough time for anybody to Gage personel in the 34. Over the years, Pittsburgh has taken many more LBs higher then they have DTs. It's a matter of record. The Pats, on the other hand, have taken several DTs early. They have also taken the majority of ther LBs early. Clearly, they put stock in drafting LBs high.

I mention Seymour as a DT because he was one early in his career and when he came out. Ours are not. They are cleary DEs. That's just how it is. Don't even know why you would argue this point. It's silly.

Washington, was a 1st round pick out of Louisville if I'm not mistaken by the 9rs. Back then, he was not a NT but a 2 technique DT along side Stubblefield.

The point here being that most of the 34s your using to prove your point are not complete yet. We will see how they draft to finish these teams. I can only look back at the 34 teams that I can recall and look at how they were built.

The Giants were built on LBs taken high in the draft. The most succesful 34 I can remember was that team.

[Rack Bauer]

If it pleases you to say that you've proven me wrong, then so be it.


I didn't say it to be a jerk. I was just messin' with you.


But technically I was right. :D


To me it's not about what position is more important. Both the NG and LBs are important to the 3-4.

For me, it's about taking the BPA at a position of need. For the Browns it'll be Ngata (if he's on the board). And it is a huge need for them. Washington is 37, and the other guys on their DL aren't great. Ngata can play some DE his first year, possibly as a backup to both DE and NG, then take over at NG his second year.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I didn't say it to be a jerk. I was just messin' with you.


But technically I was right. :D


To me it's not about what position is more important. Both the NG and LBs are important to the 3-4.

For me, it's about taking the BPA at a position of need. For the Browns it'll be Ngata (if he's on the board). And it is a huge need for them. Washington is 37, and the other guys on their DL aren't great. Ngata can play some DE his first year, possibly as a backup to both DE and NG, then take over at NG his second year.


Lots of people believe Ngata is the pick if he's there. I am not so sure, as you know. I guess we'll see. BTW, you have conveniently ingonred my point of evaluating 34 teams that are not yet complete. We can not make determinations on who is drafted where until all of these 34 teams are completed. Now, your looking at personel two years into most of these teams defensive switches. Story is not complete. However........

Giants 34

NT Jim Burt (don't even know if he was drafted)
NT Erik Howard was a 2nd Rd pick.
LB Harry Carson was a 4th Rd pick.
LB Lawrence Taylor was a 1st Rd pick.
LB Carl Banks was a 1st Rd pick.
LB Pepper Johnson was a 2nd Rd pick.
LB Gary Reasons was a 4th Rd pick.



Buffalo Bills 34

NT Jeff Wright was an 8th Rd draft pick.
NT Mike Lodish was a 10th Rd pick.
LB Daryl Talley was a 2nd Rd pick.
LB Cornelius Bennett was a 1st rd pick.
LB Marvcus Patton was an 8th rd pick.
LB Shane Conlin was a 1st rd pick.
LB Keith Gogaines was a 3rd rd pick.

These are the two most succesful 34 defenses I can recall. You can argue that Pittsburghs and or the Pats have been more succesful but I don't know that I would agree. Perhaps the Pats but from the past, these two are it IMO. Clearly investment was made at LB as opposed to NT. Not saying you can't do it the other way but if history is any indicator, it would seem that your most important players are taken relatively high and there LBs.

[Rack Bauer]

I don't know if showing the personell of defenses from over 10 years ago helps your argument very much. :D

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't know if showing the personell of defenses from over 10 years ago helps your argument very much. :D

I would say that it probably helps more then looking at a club who is a year or two into the process of implementing a 34 and evaluating there talent levels. The only way you can really view a 34 is from the finished product in my mind. While the defenses are older, I think the criteria is valid. These two teams fielded the best 34 defenses I have ever seen, then or now. This is why I used the two of those clubs as criteria.

[Rack Bauer]

I would say that it probably helps more then looking at a club who is a year or two into the process of implementing a 34 and evaluating there talent levels. The only way you can really view a 34 is from the finished product in my mind. While the defenses are older, I think the criteria is valid. These two teams fielded the best 34 defenses I have ever seen, then or now. This is why I used the two of those clubs as criteria.


Sorry, but no. Trends from 10+ years ago are not the same as recent trends.


I don't understand why you're making a big deal out of this. I've proven you wrong. It's ok. You'll prove me wrong some other time.


And even then, as I said, it comes down to who is the better BPA that you actually need? Ngata is better then any LB in this draft, other then Hawk. And he fills a need for Cleveland. If he's available, he'll be their pick, most likely.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Sorry, but no. Trends from 10+ years ago are not the same as recent trends.


I don't understand why you're making a big deal out of this. I've proven you wrong. It's ok. You'll prove me wrong some other time.


And even then, as I said, it comes down to who is the better BPA that you actually need? Ngata is better then any LB in this draft, other then Hawk. And he fills a need for Cleveland. If he's available, he'll be their pick, most likely.


Of course you are Rack.

Players have gotten bigger but the scheme is not very different then it was 30 years ago. More zone blitz stuff but really, not that different.

[kartr]

This is really an interesting scenario IMO. Bunkley and Ngata are both there at the Bills pick, eight overall, which way do they go? Barring trades, they may not go DT here. They could go QB with whichever one is left, they could go OLB which they need badley, they could go with a guy like Huff to replace Troy Vincent who is about 100 years old now or they could go TE if SF doesn't take Davis, which is a real possability IMO. I don't think DT is a certainty at this spot.

Who's the next team that might take a DT? Could be Arizona with a 3 technique, which Bunkley would fit nicely but they have a lot of needs. I don't know that this is there biggest.

It's probably Cleveland. Who would Cleveland take, if they were going to take one of these players? I think that again, it would be Bunkley because I don't really think they need a NT so much as they need a DE. Bunkley could easily be that in a 34 IMO. However, they may like OLB better. If indeed this is what they value, we could see both NTs slide.

I think Baltimore would snatch Bunkley up in this situation but it could be Ngata.

I don't think Philly would take a DT. I don't think Miami would take one. I don't think the Vikes would take one. Denver might take one but there needs are at LB, Tackle, WR and RCB as well. I don't know that DT would be there first choice here. That would leave Ngata available at our pick 18 is the draft were to fall that way.

If he is there, would we take him? I think we would probably have to. There might be trade down options here with a team like Cincy who could probably use a big DT to replace Adams or maybe NYG one pick down. A big tackle like Ngata would really solidify there DL but then I look at there OLBs and secondary and I just think what we would want might not make it cost effective for them. The Jets could use a player like Ngate and they would have the picks to move around with IMO. Could be interesting if it fell this way.

Nfldraftcountdown has Ngata going to Cleveland for their 3-4 and I've heard that the Ravens are interested in Bunkley and remember the Eagles have not replaced Corey Simon adequately, so they might take a DT in the first.

[Rack Bauer]

Of course you are Rack.

Players have gotten bigger but the scheme is not very different then it was 30 years ago. More zone blitz stuff but really, not that different.


It's not just how much the defense has changed, it's how the offenses have changed and what defenses need to do to stop them.



Either way, like I said, I wouldn't draft a certain position thinking, "This is more important" regardless of the position (with the exception of FB, K, P, and maybe G and TE).

If you have a big need at OLB and at NG, and the BPA at a position of need is a NG, then you take the NG. Especially when it's one that fits your system so well.


There will be some tweeners they can get in round 2 or 3. There is no rule saying only a 1st round pick can be a starter.

If I'm the Browns a combination of Ngata in the first and Gocong in the 3rd is more appealing then Lawson in the first and ... well there isn't another worthy NG that will be available to them in the 2nd and 3rd. Watson might drop to the 2nd, but he won't drop that far.