Question about Greg Ellis and his draft status

[Marktui]

If Greg Ellis was not drafted with the 8th overall by the Cowboys in 1998, where would he have gone that year? What round? What kind of grade did he carry coming out of North Carolina?

I believe he broke LT's sack record, but other than that, would he have been a first round pick? Just curious to know your thoughts.

[Hostile]

If Greg Ellis was not drafted with the 8th overall by the Cowboys in 1998, where would he have gone that year? What round? What kind of grade did he carry coming out of North Carolina?

I believe he broke LT's sack record, but other than that, would he have been a first round pick? Just curious to know your thoughts.Late 1st along with his linemate Vonnie Holliday would be my guess, but we'll never really know. He hasn't lived up to #8 overall in my book, but he's been a solid guy. This whining is troubling if he really is doing it.

[Mr Cowboy]

I think he would have gone within the next 7-8 picks. He and Wistrom were the top reted DE's coming out, and Wistrom was selected abour 12-14.

[AbeBeta]

Wistrom went #6 overall and Ellis went #8. Wadsworth was the top rated DE ("the next Bruce Smith") and he went #3. The only DEs that were productive (aside from Wistrom and Ellis) were Vonnie Holiday and Leonard Little. The best D-line player in 98 was taken in the Supplemental Draft -- that was Jamal Williams -- the beast DT in SD.

That was pretty much a weak draft year for many positions. Obviously Randy Moss is the guy everyone keys on and there were several good players.

You could make a strong argument for Ellis being a good pick there -- three guys ahead of him (Leaf, Wadsworth, and Enis) were serious busts. Lots of mediocre results for 1st rounders that year.

Heck, I'd even argue that Ellis was the best all-around DE that year.

[Hostile]

I think he would have gone within the next 7-8 picks. He and Wistrom were the top reted DE's coming out, and Wistrom was selected abour 12-14.Wistrom was selected ahead of Ellis by the Rams, not 4 to 6 picks later.

[Eskimo]

If one looks objectively at how players drafted in slots 7-10 traditionally perform, one would probably conclude that Ellis was an above average pick. He showed signs of becoming a Pro Bowl level player before his leg injury in his second season and I don't think he ever quite fully recovered his speed after that.

There is little doubt that he outperformed all the other DEs chosen in the first round in that draft.

Here are all the first rounders that went after Ellis:

9 Jacksonville Fred Taylor RB Florida
10 Baltimore Duane Starks CB Miami
11 Philadelphia Tra Thomas T Florida State
12 Atlanta Keith Brooking OLB Georgia Tech
13 Cincinnati Takeo Spikes OLB Auburn
14 Carolina Jason Peter DE Nebraska
15 Seattle Anthony Simmons OLB Clemson
16 Tennessee Kevin Dyson WR Utah
17 Cincinnati Brian Simmons OLB North Carolina
18 New England Robert Edwards RB Georgia
19 Green Bay Vonnie Holliday DT North Carolina
20 Detroit Terry Fair CB Tennessee
21 Minnesota Randy Moss WR Marshall
22 New England Tebucky Jones SS Syracuse
23 Oakland Mo Collins G Florida
24 N.Y. Giants Shaun Williams SS UCLA
25 Jacksonville Donovin Darius SS Syracuse
26 Pittsburgh Alan Faneca G Louisiana State
27 Kansas City Victor Riley T Auburn
28 San Francisco R.W. McQuarters CB Oklahoma State
29 Miami John Avery RB Mississippi
30 Denver Marcus Nash WR Tennessee

A fair number of solid players but the only guy who I think he has been a much better player than Ellis overall is Moss.

A case could be made for Darius who is overrated and a safety, Faneca who is very good but an OG, Taylor who is often injured, Spikes who is good and Brooking who is good.

The real reason this pick irks Cowboys fans is that we were supposed to pick Randy Moss who ended up being an All-Pro WR.

[AdamJT13]

The late, great Joel Buchsbaum had Ellis rated No. 17 overall and projected him to be taken by the Panthers with the 14th overall pick.

[dwmyers]

A few months into the season after Ellis was drafted, there were a lot of people proclaiming Ellis a bust and pointing to Vonnie Holliday and Kenny Mixon as far better choices. People don't seem to recall that Holliday was a DT in college and that in Green Bay the guy opposite him on the DL was this fella named Reggie White.

Ellis was prized because he was reliable and trustworthy, a very high character guy. He has also proven durable, and he is playing at a very high level (I'd say a step below All-Pro) at an age where guys like Holliday are on their third NFL team, and Mixon? His career sack total (18.5) is just a little more than twice Ellis's best year (9).

[dwmyers]

The late, great Joel Buchsbaum had Ellis rated No. 17 overall and projected him to be taken by the Panthers with the 14th overall pick.

I think by the ratings of the time both Ellis and Wistrom were reaches, though 9-10 draft positions, about one third of a round, is hardly a reach.

David.

[Eskimo]

Here are some of the other #8 draft choices starting from 2003:

2003: Jordan Gross
2002: Roy Williams
2001: David Terrell
2000: Plaxico Burress
1999: David Boston
1998: Greg Ellis
1997: James Farrior
1996: Tim Biakabutuka
1995: Joey Galloway
1994: Sam Adams
1993: Willie Roaf
1992: Bob Whitfield
1991: Antone Davis
1990: Chris Singleton
1989: Burt Grossman
1988: Dave Cadigan
1987: Shane Conlan
1986: Leslie O'Neal
1985: Ron Holmes
1984: Leonard Coleman
1983: Michael Haddix
1982: Mike Munchak

Among this whole list the only players I would definitely take over Ellis are Munchak, Roaf and Roy Williams. One could make a case for Shane Conlan, Sam Adams, Joey Galloway and James Farrior.

I think people just tend to have too high an expectation for a #8 pick - they expect a perennial All-Pro but not many players live up to the hype.

[silver]

we reached because the rams reached first with winstrom so we were afraid someone else would reach for ellis. to this day i still can't believe we passed on moss. that was the single most stupid move by jerry jones up there with the jimmy johnson fiasco in '94.

[Eskimo]

I think by the ratings of the time both Ellis and Wistrom were reaches, though 9-10 draft positions, about one third of a round, is hardly a reach.

David.

These are just people's opinions and not the opinions of the people who make the draft picks.

The proper way to judge a draft is to wait 3 years and then talk about how they have performed on the field.

Ellis has outperformed most players traditionally picked in the #8 slot and outplayed the vast majority of players picked below him in the first round in the 1998 draft. History shows the pick to be a good one.

The real reason for the turmoil over the pick is we allegedly told Moss we would take him and then didn't. Many other teams passed over Moss in that draft, too.

[AbeBeta]

The late, great Joel Buchsbaum had Ellis rated No. 17 overall and projected him to be taken by the Panthers with the 14th overall pick.

But what we really need to know is how much difference existed in his rating of #8 and #17 -- in a "flat" draft you'll see more "reaches"

FMI -- where did Buchsbaum have Leaf rated?

[Chief]

29 Miami John Avery RB Mississippi


Not one of Jimmy's finest moments in the War Room.

[Bizwah]

Ellis was widely considered to be a first round pick. The announcers at the Sr Bowl commented on both Ellis and Flozell saying that both were sure-fire first round picks.....they even said that Flo was a top-ten pick. Of course, that was before the hearing-loss came to light.

That wasn't a bad draft....Ellis, Flo, and Dat (at least, I think Dat came in that draft...not sure).

I think Ellis would've had a hard look from Cincinnati.

[Eskimo]

Ellis was widely considered to be a first round pick. The announcers at the Sr Bowl commented on both Ellis and Flozell saying that both were sure-fire first round picks.....they even said that Flo was a top-ten pick. Of course, that was before the hearing-loss came to light.

That wasn't a bad draft....Ellis, Flo, and Dat (at least, I think Dat came in that draft...not sure).

I think Ellis would've had a hard look from Cincinnati.

Dat was picked in 1999 in the 3rd round.

[Bizwah]

Dat was picked in 1999 in the 3rd round.

Ah, thanks.....couldn't quite remember if it was 98 or 99.

But we landed two solid starters for the last eight years in the 98 draft. How many teams can say that?

I'm reaching.....

Not having Randy hurt.....but it's time for Cowboy fans to move on.

[AbeBeta]

Not having Randy hurt.....but it's time for Cowboy fans to move on.

I'm shocked at how many fans were surprised that we didn't take Moss. It was very clear to me from all that Jones was saying at the time the there was no freaking way we would be taking Moss.

[Bizwah]

I'm shocked at how many fans were surprised that we didn't take Moss. It was very clear to me from all that Jones was saying at the time the there was no freaking way we would be taking Moss.

Yeah, there was NO WAY JJ could've taken Moss. And there's no guarantee that Moss would've been the same player in Dallas that he was in Minnesota.

Could you imagine Moss under the microscope in Dallas? Could you imagine him with the active nightlife that Dallas has?

I love Irvin, but I don't think he would've been the role model for Moss that Carter was.

[Charles]

Late 1st along with his linemate Vonnie Holliday would be my guess, but we'll never really know. He hasn't lived up to #8 overall in my book, but he's been a solid guy. This whining is troubling if he really is doing it.
:hammer:

[Future]

Yeah, there was NO WAY JJ could've taken Moss. And there's no guarantee that Moss would've been the same player in Dallas that he was in Minnesota.

Could you imagine Moss under the microscope in Dallas? Could you imagine him with the active nightlife that Dallas has?

I love Irvin, but I don't think he would've been the role model for Moss that Carter was.

LOL...moss would have been terrific anywhere. All you had to do was throw the ball high and watch him go get it....:lmao2: When we brought Ryan Leaf here and if moss was still here that draft would have looked spectacular

[Bizwah]

LOL...moss would have been terrific anywhere. All you had to do was throw the ball high and watch him go get it....:lmao2: When we brought Ryan Leaf here and if moss was still here that draft would have looked spectacular

I disagree.

Moss could very well have self-destructed here.

[L-O-Jete]

we reached because the rams reached first with winstrom so we were afraid someone else would reach for ellis. to this day i still can't believe we passed on moss. that was the single most stupid move by jerry jones up there with the jimmy johnson fiasco in '94.
It´s not the passing of Moss, but the fact there were trade offers to move down a couple of spots, so we might have been able to get Moss and extra picks what angers me. Moss vs. Ellis straight up considering everything (off-field issues, persona, leadership, etc.) not only talent, I can live with.

[Future]

I disagree.

Moss could very well have self-destructed here.

some would argue that he did in minnesota anyways...but they could throw him the ball before he self destructed anyways

[AbeBeta]

It´s not the passing of Moss, but the fact there were trade offers to move down a couple of spots, so we might have been able to get Moss and extra picks what angers me. Moss vs. Ellis straight up considering everything (off-field issues, persona, leadership, etc.) not only talent, I can live with.

where there really trade offers?

I can't see why there would have been -- who exactly would teams have been targeting? Jax is the only team that made a move between 3 and 16 -- and their deal was with Buffalo who wanted Rob Johnson who was their backup QB. Nobody moved down anywhere near us -- what does that tell us? It is very unlikely teams were itching to get up to #8 - and if someone did move up there, the target would have been ..... Moss.

[big dog cowboy]

It´s not the passing of Moss, but the fact there were trade offers to move down a couple of spots, so we might have been able to get Moss and extra picks what angers me. Moss vs. Ellis straight up considering everything (off-field issues, persona, leadership, etc.) not only talent, I can live with.
That is only partially right. Rumors were true that there were offers to us to trade down. But the roster situation dictated we had to go DE. If you recall, we only had one starting DE on the team. If you want to be upset, be upset at the fact our front office didn't do their job very well prior to the draft and cornered us into spending our first round pick on a specific position. As most of have seen the last couple of years, going into the draft with flexability is the way to go. Unfortunately that situation didn't exist with that draft and it cost us.

[AdamJT13]

But what we really need to know is how much difference existed in his rating of #8 and #17 -- in a "flat" draft you'll see more "reaches"

That definitely was a flat draft at that point. Buchsbaum's No. 8-ranked player, Fred Taylor, had a grade of 6.25. Ellis at No. 17 was a 6.12 (as was No. 16, Vonnie Holliday). The difference was a mere 0.13.

The year before that, the difference between No. 8 (Tom Knight, 6.75) and No. 17 (Michael Booker, 6.12) was 0.63 -- almost five times as big of a difference. A year after Ellis was drafted, the difference between No. 8 (Edgerrin James, 6.75) and No. 17 (Troy Edwards, 6.15) was 0.60.


FMI -- where did Buchsbaum have Leaf rated?

No. 4 overall, behind Charles Woodson, Andre Wadsworth and Peyton Manning. But his mock draft had them going in the correct order -- Manning first to the Colts, Leaf second to the Chargers, Wadsworth third to the Cardinals and Woodson fourth to the Raiders.

[CrazyCowboy]

He was a legit first rounder......he would not have lasted long past the boys.

[hipfake08]

No doubt he would have been in the top 15 selected.
I was screaming when the Saints passed on Moss.:ohboy: :ohboy: :ohboy:
Then even louder when we passed. :bang2: :banghead: :shoot4: :rake: :war: :blind: :abuseme:

[Eddie]

Could you imagine Moss under the microscope in Dallas? Could you imagine him with the active nightlife that Dallas has?


Why, is there no nightlife in Minnesota??? :confused:

[Jarv]

Why, is there no nightlife in Minnesota??? :confused:

I hear the boat cruises are kinda fun...

[L-O-Jete]

where there really trade offers?

I can't see why there would have been -- who exactly would teams have been targeting? Jax is the only team that made a move between 3 and 16 -- and their deal was with Buffalo who wanted Rob Johnson who was their backup QB. Nobody moved down anywhere near us -- what does that tell us? It is very unlikely teams were itching to get up to #8 - and if someone did move up there, the target would have been ..... Moss.
As I remember it the movement was for the RB´s, especially Taylor and some of the interested teams were Jax (so nobody could get the pick ahead of them) NE and someone else, maybe miami who didn´t have the firepower.