Sean Taylor's felony charges have wrecked several lives

[BigDFan5]

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/Issues/2006-05-25/news/feature_full.html

Sean Taylor is a football player. He's a good football player. No, let's get this right: He's a great football player, a star.

Taylor grew up on the dusty gridirons south of Miami. He won a state championship at Gulliver Prep and then a national championship at the University of Miami. He's a defender, a safety so ferocious he's known as Tha Hitman. The Washington Redskins selected him with the fifth overall pick in the 2004 draft. In his rookie year in Washington, he was named a Pro Bowl alternate. The guy is great, as a football player.

He's also a bit of a head case. In his rookie season, following a game against Cincinnati, he angrily confronted Bengals receiver T.J. Houshmandzadeh. Without naming either player, Cincinnati coach Marvin Lewis later said one of his players had been spit on.

This past season, Taylor was ejected from a playoff game for spitting on Michael Pittman of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
His off-field life has often seemed just as oddball. He cycled through agents and skipped a mandatory rookie symposium. He was arrested on drunken driving charges in Virginia in October 2004, though those charges were dismissed.

According to documents on file at the Richard E. Gerstein courthouse, an off-duty Miami Beach Police officer working South Beach nightclub B.E.D. received a report that Taylor, who was at the club, had asked if his gun was visible beneath his shirt.

"When I went to check his waistband, he slapped my hand, and I said, 'I have to search you,'" said Ofcr. Barrenchea in a deposition. "Once I reached his waistband, he said, 'No, wait, wait, wait, wait.' That's when he booked. He ran."

Taylor was never apprehended. Barrenchea said he filed an incident report with Miami Beach Police.

"Sean has a big heart and a lot of great qualities," former Hurricanes cornerback Antrel Rolle told the Washington Post. "But his friend selection is not good. I don't think that most of his friends have any positive influence."
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Sean Taylor is a football player. He's also a criminal. A felon. At least that's what the Miami-Dade County State Attorney's Office asserts.

In June 2005, after an altercation with several young men in West Perrine, Taylor's GMC Yukon Denali was sprayed with bullets from both an AK-47 and a semiautomatic pistol. The shooters have never been identified.

When the gunsmoke settled, prosecutors ended up charging Taylor with three counts of felony assault and one count of battery, all stemming from the original altercation. Because of mandatory minimum sentences, Taylor, if convicted of any of the assault charges, would be jailed for at least three years. He could be imprisoned for as many as 46 years.

"It's incredible that this young man would be facing three counts of incredible severity," says Ed Carhart, one of Taylor's defense attorneys. "He has so much to lose it's mind-boggling when you think about it."

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A guy named Ryan Hill, the main victim, is the primary witness for the state. Taylor's future rests largely on Hill's credibility.
Hill likes to point out that he, too, is a football player. He roamed the defensive line in high school, earning an honorable mention all-state his senior year. He even played a bit of junior college ball. He does not want to see Sean Taylor go to jail.

"No, man. He gotta play football and stuff," Hill says. "I played football. I understand."

Hill played his football in Miami, on the same dusty fields as Taylor. But whereas Taylor advanced to gridiron glory and riches, Hill never made it out of West Perrine. He lives with his mother, brother, and sister in a public housing project. For cash he helps an uncle mow lawns. In 2002 he was arrested and charged with burglary and third-degree grand theft, both felonies.

Taylor is accused of pointing a gun at Hill, whom Taylor believed stole his two brand-new all-terrain vehicles.

On a recent Saturday morning, Hill sits on the stoop outside his mother's apartment. Relatives stream through the open front screen door. Missionaries canvas the neighborhood, knocking on doors and handing out leaflets.
At age 22, Hill is a half-year younger than Taylor. His face is soft and boyish-looking, but his body is hulking, far larger than the average man's. He stands six feet three inches and weighs 275 pounds. He likes to cover his frame in baggy jeans and oversize white T-shirts known in the neighborhood as Arabs. A wide black scar snakes up his right forearm, a reminder of hot oil that splashed him during a kitchen fire a year and a half ago.


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"This was a street fight, basically," says Taylor's attorney Ed Carhart. He insists his client never pulled out a gun during the altercation, as Taylor has been charged. "This is a he-said/he-said case. That's what's so spooky about taking it to court."

When Taylor's rookie season ended in early 2005, he chose to return to Miami rather than stay in Virginia near the Redskins. He sometimes crashed with friends like Michael McFarlane, a Jamaican who lived in West Perrine near Ryan Hill.

With some money siphoned from a contract that pays him a minimum of $18 million, Taylor bought himself a pair of all-terrain vehicles. Four-wheel ATVs are popular in West Perrine. They can be seen on weekends buzzing down side streets and traversing the lawns fronting housing projects.
"Everybody just got one because they are fun to ride," says Julius Gardner, a resident of West Perrine and one of the people Taylor is accused of assaulting. "Everybody just likes riding them."

On the last day of May 2005, after cruising the area with a friend, Taylor parked his new ATVs at McFarlane's house. Taylor left the vehicles overnight, though he did not stay at the house himself, according to Carhart.
The house is a compact ranch on a street where rims are stolen off cars in broad daylight. Michael Bowen, the current owner, bought the house nine months ago. Bowen says McFarlane left plenty behind when he moved out.
"I found at least 200 pairs of Timberlands, all brand-new, never been worn," says Bowen, referring to expensive and trendy hiking boots. "He left closets full of new clothes, fashionable stuff that didn't fit me, unfortunately. There were hundreds of photographs of people with machine guns and naked women sitting on their laps, boxes of photographs that I finally threw away a couple months ago."

In a laundry room near an in-ground pool, Bowen pulls down a box, which he opens to reveal shiny rows of ammunition.

"There were buckets of bullets when I moved in here," he says. "Buckets! Shotgun shells, handgun shells, machine gun, everything. Bullets in the shed, in every bedroom, everywhere, thousands of bullets."

In a maroon storage shed located in the back yard, Bowen says he unearthed cases of hard liquor. He points at a red Igloo cooler splattered with mud.
"That's where I found the marijuana, at least a pound of it," he says. "This was a party crib, for sure."


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When McFarlane woke up June 1, he discovered the ATVs were missing. He and a friend drove around the neighborhood looking for the vehicles, according to Carhart. They did not call the police.

"Any citizen knows that the police would not treat stolen ATVs as exactly a top priority," Carhart says. "And the bikes were brand-new, so [Taylor] didn't have titles yet. He didn't have VIN numbers, either, because the paperwork was still in transit."

McFarlane hadn't found the ATVs by the time he finally called Taylor. But he had developed a suspect: Ryan Hill.

Hill spent the afternoon of June 1 hanging outside the house where he lived at the time. The house — tan in color, a dirt yard, a satellite dish stuck to a flat roof — was a place for guys with street names like Cheese, Roach, and Fat Boy to gather and play videogames.

Taylor's blue Yukon Denali cruised by the house multiple times. After several more drive-bys, the SUV stopped on the street. Hill approached the vehicle to ask Taylor what he wanted.

"He started talking nasty and stuff, talking about how öThe police can't touch me. I own this town. Where's my ****?'" said Hill in a deposition.
According to Hill and other witnesses, Taylor exited his truck, pulled a gun out of his waistband, and pointed it at several people. Taylor has consistently denied there were any guns present at the altercation.
"When [Taylor] pulled up, he jumped out of his car," said Gardner. "When he jumped out of his car, [a] black Altima pulled up. That's when the guy, he had a chopper.

"They call it a chopper, but it was an M-16."

"You give Sean back his ****," the man said in a thick Jamaican accent, according to state witnesses. "Give him back his **** or we are going to kill you."

Hill, Gardner, and the others claimed to not have the ATVs.
"So [Taylor] was like, 'I'm going to come back and I'm going to kill all you ******s,'" said Nashea Herlong, one of the state's witnesses.

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Ten minutes after his initial quarrel with Ryan Hill, Sean Taylor did come back, as promised. He brought with him what has been labeled "a posse" of men in other cars. Witnesses claim he remained armed. He again confronted Hill and his friends.

"[Taylor was] just jumping up, like in a football game. He was just jumping up, like hyped!" Hill said. "Then he just swung at me when he got across the street. I fought him back. Real good too."

As Taylor and Hill tussled, Charles Caughman, a nineteen-year-old from Baltimore who was visiting McFarlane, attacked one of Hill's friends with a black aluminum baseball bat, prosecutors claim.

Members of both parties scattered. Hill, in flip-flops, ran from Taylor. Taylor and his posse returned to their cars and drove back to McFarlane's house, several blocks north. Taylor's Yukon and the black Nissan Altima were parked in front of the house.

According to police, Caughman said he was sitting in the living room. McFarlane, standing next to Caughman, was talking on the phone and looking out the front window. A silver car pulled up. Caughman saw hands poke out of the car's windows. McFarlane noticed guns and dove to the floor. Taylor's Yukon, the black Altima, and a third car in front of the house were sprayed with bullets.

The Yukon was struck at least fifteen times. Police recovered 27 bullet cases, 19 of which were from 7.62-caliber bullets, the type used by an AK-47. The other bullets were .40 caliber, the kind used in a semiautomatic handgun. One of the bullets matched another used in a robbery that occurred a half-mile away.

Taylor was not at the house when police arrived.
"It was something about not waiting around to be shot," says Carhart. Also not there was the Jamaican man whom Hill and others said assaulted them with an M-16. McFarlane and his friends refused to allow police to search the house.

"They became extremely sarcastic, every single one of them. They were extremely uncooperative, okay?" said Ofcr. Anne Robinson in a deposition.
Three days after the shooting, Taylor surrendered at a police substation near West Perrine. He posted a $16,500 bond and was released from custody. He subsequently pleaded not guilty to all charges against him.


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Mike Grieco was the assistant state attorney who initially tried to convict Taylor. In the four years since he'd graduated from the University of Miami School of Law, Grieco had established himself as The NFL Guy at the State Attorney's Office. In addition to prosecuting Taylor, Grieco had assumed the prosecution of former Oakland Raider Barret Robbins, who has bipolar disorder and was shot by Miami Beach Police last year after he broke into the building that houses the nightclub Mansion.

Grieco was angling for a sports-related job in New York, a state where he had also passed the Bar. As defense attorneys would eventually discover, Grieco also liked to skinny-dip. And he liked women with "brains and an ***." To a small group of people — perhaps Midwestern tourists who don't know their way around South Beach — Grieco displayed an alter ego. On Saturday nights at Automatic Slim's on Washington Avenue, Grieco was known as DJ ESQ.

He could be seen by the front door, in the DJ booth. He was the one in the black T-shirt worn over a white long-sleeve undershirt. The one with the stud in his ear, the chain dangling from his jeans, the sideburns crawling down his cheeks.

He was the guy spinning a playlist cribbed from a frat party circa 1988. Old U2. Old INXS. Nothing more current than an unfortunate mashup of Jay-Z's "99 Problems" and Nena's "99 Red Balloons." The tourists dug it, though. So did Taylor's defense team.


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When Taylor first surrendered to the police in West Perrine, he had a lawyer named Fred Moldovan. As if he were switching sports agents, Taylor quickly changed representation to Carhart. His new lawyer prepared to defend Taylor against the one count of felony assault with a firearm and one misdemeanor count of battery. But a full seven months after the initial arrest, Grieco amplified the charges against Taylor to three counts of felony assault and the one count of battery.

"The state has had this case since June and now they're filing these added charges? It's bizarre," Carhart said.

With more charges to defend, Taylor bulked up his legal team. In addition to Carhart, he hired attorneys Larry Handfield, Richard Sharpstein, and Sharpstein's wife, Janice Burton Sharpstein. The new team, turning its attention to Grieco, stumbled onto DJ ESQ's Webpage.
The specific Webpage notes that the personality traits Grieco looks for in the opposite sex are "brains and an ***." And has he been skinny-dipping? "Yep."
What bothered the defense the most, or at least what gave the attorneys the most ammunition, was the way the page linked to stories about Grieco's prosecution of Sean Taylor, which they deemed a conflict of interest.

"The Website is clear: 'Links to my [press] coverage,'" Richard Sharpstein said. "You click on it — it's all about the Sean Taylor case. It's not about some burglary prosecuted in Overtown."

Even though Grieco quickly removed himself from the case, and subsequently resigned from the State Attorney's Office altogether, Taylor's legal team asked for a dismissal of the charges against its client.
"An uninterested, unbiased prosecutor would never prosecute this case. If Sean Taylor wasn't the defendant, this case would have been out the window six months ago," Sharpstein has said.

Be that as it may, Taylor's defense team was not able to get the case dismissed because of DJ ESQ. State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle criticized the defense attorneys and vowed to proceed with the case without Grieco.

"The desire to smear a prosecutor and affect a potential jury pool is a reprehensible trial tactic," Rundle's office relayed in a statement, adding that nothing on Grieco's Website "compromised the integrity of the Sean Taylor case."

The case, which has been delayed several times, is currently scheduled to be tried in July.


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Strip away all pretrial gamesmanship and what's left is Ryan Hill. Everything hinges on Hill.
Talking outside his mother's apartment, Hill says he's changed his cell phone number because he's been receiving calls from strangers asking him to drop the case.

"I really didn't want to go through this," he says of his role in the upcoming trial. "I don't like this public stuff. It's, like, scary, 'cause that dude, he knows people that can do stuff to me. And I don't want to get hurt."
Hill says lawyers are encouraging him to sue Taylor in civil court, an option he hasn't ruled out. In the same breath, he says he doesn't want money, and he feels sympathy for Taylor, up to a point.

"When you look at it, he looks like the victim," Hill says. "His house got sprayed and then the ATVs got took. But if your ATVs got took, you don't go trying to shoot other people for something that somebody ain't do. That's wrong, man."

In a deposition, Hill's friend Maurice "Fat Boy" Williams denies he or Hill were involved in the theft of Taylor's ATVs.

"Honestly, on my daddy, we did not steal that stuff from him," said Williams, a high school dropout who describes himself as retarded.
Hill, talking outside his mother's apartment, insists he is not a criminal. He claims to have no idea who shot Taylor's Yukon. He says he's never stolen an ATV.

Police disagreed on that last claim, at least briefly.
On Saturday, March 4, of this year, at 3:10 in the morning, two Miami-Dade Police officers pulled over a 2002 Chevy pickup occupied by two black men. In the bed of the truck sat an ATV with the ignition ripped out. A check of its seventeen-digit vehicle identification number revealed the ATV had been stolen the day before.
The passenger was Maurice "Fat Boy" Williams. The driver was Ryan Hill. The pair was arrested for grand theft, but those charges were dropped a month later.

[Chocolate Lab]

Wow. Has this been posted at ES? If Art allows it to be ;), I can't wait to see the peanut gallery defend Taylor now. What a two-bit thug. Even if he escapes this situation, which I'm sure he will, he'll eventually get caught.

[Hostile]

Dang! That article is just nuts.

[BigDFan5]

Wow. Has this been posted at ES? If Art allows it to be ;), I can't wait to see the peanut gallery defend Taylor now. What a two-bit thug. Even if he escapes this situation, which I'm sure he will, he'll eventually get caught.

Yeah its posted there, 99% of them are defending Taylor and claiming some of this article may not be true, as well as the usual "no evidence" bit as if they are privy to the prosecutions case files

[BigDFan5]

Dang! That article is just nuts.

That was my first impression was "wow" thats alot of details and the part where he purpotedly had a gun and ran from the Policeman when approached will be used in court

[skinsscalper]

Foreskin fans can come up with all the "there's no proof to make this prosecution" crap all they want. The fact is that this kid is a punk. It will be nice to see him end up as Bubba's punk.

Unreal.

SS

[MossBurner]

It's funny to me that this article is fine to be listed in the "The Zone" whereas a plethora of articles with a positive spin for Sean Taylor immediately receive a widespread call to be moved to the "NFL Zone".

It's also funny that the NFL DA (Grieco) dropped the charges against the alleged victim (Hill) where there was proof (VIN #s) that he stole ATV's after the Sean Taylor incident. The DA had a personal vendetta and didn't want his star witness' character to come into question...

[Chocolate Lab]

It's funny to me that this article is fine to be listed in the "The Zone" whereas a plethora of articles with a positive spin for Sean Taylor immediately receive a widespread call to be moved to the "NFL Zone".

It's also funny that the NFL DA (Grieco) dropped the charges against the alleged victim (Hill) where there was proof (VIN #s) that he stole ATV's after the Sean Taylor incident. The DA had a personal vendetta and didn't want his star witness' character to come into question...
Typical. Attack the DA on some grounds and completely ignore the PATTERN Taylor shows of being a complete thug.

You guys really are the biggest homers on Earth.

[lspain1]

My reaction after reading the article was Yuck! It's like reading a bad episode of Cops. I don't know if Taylor will get convicted because the prosecution's star witness is not a sympathetic figure. It looks to me like a good defense team will tear him to shreds.

[the kid 05]

i feel sorry for the kid, but if those facts are 110% truthfull such as him running after the night club and the vin numbers on the atv's then those charges being droped i feel that this is a lost cost

[riggo]

is there a cliffs notes version of this? can someone summarize?

[DeWare94]

^read it lazy ***

[zrinkill]

is there a cliffs notes version of this? can someone summarize?

Yea .....Sean Taylor is a piece of trash.

[BigDFan5]

Yea .....Sean Taylor is a piece of trash.

That summed it up nicely

[Cowboys&Caps]

No Way Im Reading All That I Went To High School And Did Less.

If Someone Wants To Summarize It Then I'll Join The Discussion.

[Alexander]

His " " profile:

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/Issues/2006-05-25/news/feature.4.gif

Not only is he a thug, it appears he is ignorant and immature.

[genghiskhan]

"It's incredible that this young man would be facing three counts of incredible severity," says Ed Carhart, one of Taylor's defense attorneys. "He has so much to lose it's mind-boggling when you think about it."

I don't give a crap what he has to lose. Don't be stupid and don't be a criminal if you don't want to lose what you have.

[BlueStar22]

is there a cliffs notes version of this? can someone summarize?
in short, Sean Taylor is an idiot.

[riggo]

heres a better summary-
"So let me get this straight. Taylor owns some atvs. Has them on his property. A couple of retarded thugs steal his atvs. Taylor supposedly pulls a gun?? Is that it? He pulled a gun??? Whats the big deal? Seems to me the retards are lucky they didnt get shot."

yep. thats a good one.

if you all werent so homerific, you'd see that the article states that the states star witnessand the person who had charges dropped is a convicted felon.

""Honestly, on my daddy, we did not steal that stuff from him," said Williams, a high school dropout who describes himself as retarded. Hill, talking outside his mother's apartment, insists he is not a criminal. He claims to have no idea who shot Taylor's Yukon. He says he's never stolen an ATV.

Police disagreed on that last claim, at least briefly.
On Saturday, March 4, of this year, at 3:10 in the morning, two Miami-Dade Police officers pulled over a 2002 Chevy pickup occupied by two black men. In the bed of the truck sat an ATV with the ignition ripped out. A check of its seventeen-digit vehicle identification number revealed the ATV had been stolen the day before.
The passenger was Maurice "Fat Boy" Williams. The driver was Ryan Hill. The pair was arrested for grand theft, but those charges were dropped a month later."

dropped? why in the hell were the charges dropped?

a circus clown could win an acquittal in this case. you could see that if you took off the glasses...

[riggo]

His " " profile:

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/Issues/2006-05-25/news/feature.4.gif

Not only is he a thug, it appears he is ignorant and immature.

how do you know he made that page?

[riggo]

No Way Im Reading All That I Went To High School And Did Less.

If Someone Wants To Summarize It Then I'll Join The Discussion.

thank you.

[BlueStar22]

heres a better summary-
"So let me get this straight. Taylor owns some atvs. Has them on his property. A couple of retarded thugs steal his atvs. Taylor supposedly pulls a gun?? Is that it? He pulled a gun??? Whats the big deal? Seems to me the retards are lucky they didnt get shot."

yep. thats a good one.

if you all werent so homerific, you'd see that the article states that the states star witnessand the person who had charges dropped is a convicted felon.

""Honestly, on my daddy, we did not steal that stuff from him," said Williams, a high school dropout who describes himself as retarded. Hill, talking outside his mother's apartment, insists he is not a criminal. He claims to have no idea who shot Taylor's Yukon. He says he's never stolen an ATV.

Police disagreed on that last claim, at least briefly.
On Saturday, March 4, of this year, at 3:10 in the morning, two Miami-Dade Police officers pulled over a 2002 Chevy pickup occupied by two black men. In the bed of the truck sat an ATV with the ignition ripped out. A check of its seventeen-digit vehicle identification number revealed the ATV had been stolen the day before.
The passenger was Maurice "Fat Boy" Williams. The driver was Ryan Hill. The pair was arrested for grand theft, but those charges were dropped a month later."

dropped? why in the hell were the charges dropped?

a circus clown could win an acquittal in this case. you could see that if you took off the glasses...you failed to mention in your summary that Taylor went to confront the witness about the ATVs instead of calling the police like civilized people do.

[Chocolate Lab]

a circus clown could win an acquittal in this case. you could see that if you took off the glasses...And if you'd take off the glasses, you'd see that the outcome of this particular case is beside the point. The point is that Taylor is a POS criminal who leads a life that will eventually lead to jailtime -- or worse. Truth be told, Taylor is fortunate that none of the bullets that hit his car found his body.

But will he learn from it and change? Nope, he apparently isn't smart enough for that.

[Alexander]

how do you know he made that page?

Ah, I see.

Part of the "conspiracy" that is in play in the world to continually make the Washington Redskins and it's players look bad.

There are plenty of profiles that are false. Judging by the mode of this one, I would be willing to bet it's accurate.

[apickmans]

you failed to mention in your summary that Taylor went to confront the witness about the ATVs instead of calling the police like civilized people do.

haha yeah cuz im sure the cops would of made it a Huuuuge priority. Not saying what he did was right, but i can see why he didnt go to the cops.

[Alexander]

And if you'd take off the glasses, you'd see that the outcome of this particular case is beside the point. The point is that Taylor is a POS criminal who leads a life that will eventually lead to jailtime -- or worse. Truth be told, Taylor is fortunate that none of the bullets that hit his car found his body.

But will he learn from it and change? Nope, he apparently isn't smart enough for that.

You are wasting your time, Chocolate Lab.

Again, you are preaching to the very same imbeciles who derided Michael Irvin, yet out of the other sides of their mouths praise this street hood. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

It doesn't surprise me that Redskin fans embrace scum. They have always had no class.

[BigDFan5]

heres a better summary-
"So let me get this straight. Taylor owns some atvs. Has them on his property. A couple of retarded thugs steal his atvs. Taylor supposedly pulls a gun?? Is that it? He pulled a gun??? Whats the big deal? Seems to me the retards are lucky they didnt get shot."

Actually they werent on his property they were at the gansters house in the projects.

As for "whats the big dea" you must be an idiot to think its ok to pull guns on people. Seems to me the ATVs werent there, and Taylor made a mistake





if you all werent so homerific, you'd see that the article states that the states star witnessand the person who had charges dropped is a convicted felon.

and? Does that mean its ok that someone committs a crime against you because you committed a crime a few years before?



dropped? why in the hell were the charges dropped?
Who knows maybe because the original charges were wrong? Maybe the person who the ATVs belonged to knew these guys? Maybe these guys recovered the stolen ATV's, nobody knows. Only Redskins fans would automatically assume the Miami DA's office is letting criminals go to get poor little Sean


a circus clown could win an acquittal in this case. you could see that if you took off the glasses.


Guess we will find out. I notice you didnt mention the part where Taylor took a gun to a nightclub and ran from cops

[genghiskhan]

thank you.


How far have we fallen as a society when someone is lauding someone else who is complaining that it's too much work for him to read?

[apickmans]

Ah, I see.

Part of the "conspiracy" that is in play in the world to continually make the Washington Redskins and it's players look bad.

There are plenty of profiles that are false. Judging by the mode of this one, I would be willing to bet it's accurate.

You honestly think that taylor opened up a account??

[Alexander]

How far have we fallen as a society when someone is lauding someone else who is complaining that it's too much work for him to read?

The one lauding the laziness was a Redskin fan.

Think about it.

[genghiskhan]

No Way Im Reading All That I Went To High School And Did Less.


I can tell.

[genghiskhan]

You honestly think that taylor opened up a account??

Yes. Why not?

[Alexander]

You honestly think that taylor opened up a account??

Given his track record of immaturity and ignorance? Yes.

[JPostSam]

"His house got sprayed and then the ATVs got took. But if your ATVs got took, you don't go trying to shoot other people for something that somebody ain't do. That's wrong, man."

how can you argue with poetry like that?

:laugh1:

[genghiskhan]

The one lauding the laziness was a Redskin fan.

Think about it.

Ah, yes. Good point.

[the kid 05]

you failed to mention in your summary that Taylor went to confront the witness about the ATVs instead of calling the police like civilized people do. There is a thing called cival action. Most famouse one was WAAAAAAY back when our country first started a farmer retaliated againts a taxer and got his money back...cival actions can be good and defenatly can be bad

[BlueStar22]

haha yeah cuz im sure the cops would of made it a Huuuuge priority. Not saying what he did was right, but i can see why he didnt go to the cops.
that's not the point. he skipped step #1 altogether and went straight to taking it in his own hands.

[Chocolate Lab]

You are wasting your time, Chocolate Lab.

Again, you are preaching to the very same imbeciles who derided Michael Irvin, yet out of the other sides of their mouths praise this street hood. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

It doesn't surprise me that Redskin fans embrace scum. They have always had no class.
I guess I am a little shocked... I went to ES about an hour ago (haven't been able to get the site to work since) and at the time there were maybe 30 replies in the thread and only one poster was *not* defending Taylor... Amazing.

One idiot even said, "That article makes me like Taylor even more." (Or if I were being correct in quoting him, I'd remove the caplitalization and punctuation.)

Unreal. I know we're rooting for laundry, but to excuse behavior like this because a guy wears a certain uniform is stunning.

[BigDFan5]

I guess I am a little shocked... I went to ES about an hour ago (haven't been able to get the site to work since) and at the time there were maybe 30 replies in the thread and only one poster was *not* defending Taylor... Amazing.

One idiot even said, "That article makes me like Taylor even more." (Or if I were being correct in quoting him, I'd remove the caplitalization and punctuation.)

Unreal. I know we're rooting for laundry, but to excuse behavior like this because a guy wears a certain uniform is stunning.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156364

[Alexander]

Unreal. I know we're rooting for laundry, but to excuse behavior like this because a guy wears a certain uniform is stunning.

It goes with the territory.

Redskin fan = no IQ and stuborn, instinctual homeritis.

[apickmans]

His " " profile:

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/Issues/2006-05-25/news/feature.4.gif

Not only is he a thug, it appears he is ignorant and immature.

Im confused. what part of this makes him appear ignorant and immature???

[BigDFan5]

Im confused. what part of this makes him appear ignorant and immature???


wow, that says alot about you.

[Alexander]

Im confused. what part of this makes him appear ignorant and immature???

Keeping a " " profile is step one for starters.

[apickmans]

It goes with the territory.

Redskin fan = no IQ and stuborn, instinctual homeritis.

haha i love how you first say Redskin fans have no class, and then you go and insult all of us with this. Pretty funny how much of a hater you are. My fault for thinking eagle fans were the more Homer fans of them all.

[apickmans]

Keeping a " " profile is step one for starters.


haha do you know how many people have accounts????? i bet like half the people in this board do....hahaha and is that it?? Why would keeping a account make him ignorant and immature since youre prob calling a lot of people in this forum that also?

[apickmans]

wow, that says alot about you.

You guys still havent answered my question.

[Alexander]

haha i love how you first say Redskin fans have no class, and then you go and insult all of us with this.

LOL!

You come to a rivals board and don't expect to be insulted?

I could go right to one of your boards and be called Cowturd, , Cowgirl, you name it. So spare me the bleating.

Pretty funny how much of a hater you are. My fault for thinking eagle fans were the more Homer fans of them all.

If you don't like it, I am positive there are several Redskin boards you can visit.

[riggo]

The one lauding the laziness was a Redskin fan.

Think about it.

laziness is your opinion. i happened to be busy working. dont bother asking or anything.

and this from the one that thinks thats actually sean taylors page.....

[Rack Bauer]

No Way Im Reading All That I Went To High School And Did Less.

If Someone Wants To Summarize It Then I'll Join The Discussion.


I believe you 100%.

[Alexander]

dont bother asking or anything......

Don't worry. I won't.

[apickmans]

Look, i know Sean Taylor prob. in fact did pull out his gun when asking where his ATVs were and he will probably not go to jail after its all said and done. I'm not going around screaming thats hes innocent and that hes an angel, but you guys are going on about him like he murdered a bunch of people and is gonna avoid jailtime. You guys make it seem like Taylor is the only "thug" in the NFL and should be locked away forever. If he didnt play for the redskins you guys would obviously not hate as much. I understand that. Taylor is young and has acted immature as times but i think with time he will get better.

[riggo]

ok. so, in summary...

a self admitted retarted man who was pulled over with stolen ATV's- but the charges are dropped - steals ATV's from taylor, he waves a gun in an attempt to get them back, gets shot at, the prosecutor get dismissed for using his position to further his career as a DJ, taylor rejects an offer that includes no jail time.....


nothing wierd there.

[apickmans]

LOL!

You come to a rivals board and don't expect to be insulted?

I could go right to one of your boards and be called Cowturd, , Cowgirl, you name it. So spare me the bleating.



If you don't like it, I am positive there are several Redskin boards you can visit.

haha yeah im sure you being called a cowturd or is the same as being called an idiot, someone with no IQ. I expect to come to a rivals board and be insulted only when i say something stupid.

[Alexander]

haha yeah im sure you being called a cowturd or is the same as being called an idiot, someone with no IQ. I expect to come to a rivals board and be insulted only when i say something stupid.

You are a Redskin fan.

Therefore the label fits.

[apickmans]

You are a Redskin fan.

Therefore the label fits.

Ok man whatever. Anyways i think found Sean Taylor's other account. Wow who knows how many he has! Must make him even more ignorant and immature right???

http://profile.************/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=67770045


edit: wont let me paste the link.....oh well.

[cowboywho?]

You are a Redskin fan.

Therefore the label fits.

LMFAO. You are a Cowboy Fan.
Therefore the label fits.

[riggo]

You are a Redskin fan.

Therefore the label fits.

whatever makes ya feel better.

[BlueStar22]

retarted what the hell is that?

[riggo]

what the hell is that?

sorry- tried to edit. wouldnt let me.

[riggo]

Ok man whatever. Anyways i think found Sean Taylor's other account. Wow who knows how many he has! Must make him even more ignorant and immature right???

http://profile.************/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=67770045


edit: wont let me paste the link.....oh well.

i found his 'real' page.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:JuR7T3Q4dCkJ:profile.************/index.cfm%3Ffuseaction%3Duser.viewprofile%26friend id%3D44994374+sean+taylors+birthday&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

it wont work either. but you get the idea....

[StanleySpadowski]

Taylor supposedly pulls a gun?? Is that it? He pulled a gun??? Whats the big deal?



Of all the stupid statements I've seen on message boards, this one ranks in the top 10.


If someone and their posse of thugs showed up on your doorstep tomorrow gun drawn you'd be fine with that? After all, it's no big deal.

[zrinkill]

LMFAO. You are a Cowboy Fan.
Therefore the label fits.

Wow ....... a new redskin troll

:rolleyes:

[riggo]

Of all the stupid statements I've seen on message boards, this one ranks in the top 10.


If someone and their posse of thugs showed up on your doorstep tomorrow gun drawn you'd be fine with that? After all, it's no big deal.

if i stole their ATV, i wouldnt be shocked.

[CPnasty]

Alexander, c'mon man you really thought that was ST profile there is about a 100 of them, you should search some more because i don't think you got the right one.:lmao2:

[burmafrd]

Riggo, if by now you cannot admit that Taylor is a disaster looking for a place to happen, then you will never get it.

[StanleySpadowski]

if i stole their ATV, i wouldnt be shocked.

So you're assuming guilt? Kind of hypocritical don't ya think?

[jrumann59]

S. Taylor=Dwayne Goodrich, S. Taylor has more money and noteriety to lose. Remember Many redskins live in DC, and since I have down work in that town and in SE it is Thug Lyfe all the way yo!

[riggo]

So you're assuming guilt? Kind of hypocritical don't ya think?

ironic statement, dont ya think?

[trickblue]

if i stole their ATV, i wouldnt be shocked.

Where is the proof they stole his ATVs?

[riggo]

Riggo, if by now you cannot admit that Taylor is a disaster looking for a place to happen, then you will never get it.

i'll state my point- i'm not saying he hasnt made mistakes. i believe he did wave a gun. i also believe that he's a hot head who had his ATVs stolen and he reacted like a vigilante. i'd like to know more about who shot at him, why the charges were dropped against the alleged theives, and why there has been nobody prosecuted but him.

[BigDFan5]

if i stole their ATV, i wouldnt be shocked.


ahh so its guilty until proven innocent for the guys that Taylor assulted, but its innocent until proven guilty for taylor. hypocrite

[BigDFan5]

i'll state my point- i'm not saying he hasnt made mistakes. i believe he did wave a gun. i also believe that he's a hot head who had his ATVs stolen and he reacted like a vigilante. i'd like to know more about who shot at him, why the charges were dropped against the alleged theives, and why there has been nobody prosecuted but him.


So you think he committed the crime but he should not be prosecuted for it?

[Hostile]

My apologies to some of the Skins fans who come here that I enjoy. For the most part the ones who have responded to this thread make you guys look bad.

Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Holy cow.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Does anyone on this board have any evidence Taylor pulled a gun? Anyone?

[MossBurner]

Keeping a " " profile is step one for starters.

So, every 23 year old with a profile is immature? Well, there goes the future, because about 90% of people currently in undergraduate institutions have profiles. Ask your children.

[MossBurner]

So you think he committed the crime but he should not be prosecuted for it?

In Florida where the penalties are ridiculous, no.

If he were convicted in Virginia with a first time offense, sure. He would get no jail time for brandishing a weapon. Probably suspended 2 games.

Come to think of it, he wouldn't get convicted anyway. Where's the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt? There's plenty of doubt.

[MossBurner]

Does anyone on this board have any evidence Taylor pulled a gun? Anyone?

Proof? What proof? There's proof?

I guess the prosecution is saving their candid camera tape for the 'trial'.

[TEK2000]

In Florida where the penalties are ridiculous, no.

If he were convicted in Virginia with a first time offense, sure. He would get no jail time for brandishing a weapon. Probably suspended 2 games.

Come to think of it, he wouldn't get convicted anyway. Where's the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt? There's plenty of doubt.

So if someone pulled a gun in your face, you'd want them to be tried in Virginia where they'd basically have no consequences for their action?

I just can't understand that... then again, I'm from Texas where we believe in punishing our criminals. I guess we're the minority these days.

[MossBurner]

So if someone pulled a gun in your face, you'd want them to be tried in Virginia where they'd basically have no consequences for their action?

I just can't understand that... then again, I'm from Texas where we believe in punishing our criminals. I guess we're the minority these days.

I just stated that if he were to be convicted, I would wish it to be in Virginia where the penalty fits the crime. Gun laws in FLA are crazy.

Then again if I were a punk thief who stole some ATVs and the owner pulled a gun in my face, then I probably wouldn't give a damn. I would probably gather up some of my buddies, drive to the guy's house and shoot it to hell. Then a few months later I would steal some more ATVs. Then I would act like a righteous martyr and make a big scene out of something that was my fault to begin with.

And if I were a thief and an attempted murderer, then I probably wouldn't think too much of lying to the police about the guy pulling a gun on me instead of him actually just beating the piss out of me.

[SkinsHokieFan]

So if someone pulled a gun in your face, you'd want them to be tried in Virginia where they'd basically have no consequences for their action?

I just can't understand that... then again, I'm from Texas where we believe in punishing our criminals. I guess we're the minority these days.


Where is the evidence he pulled a gun?

Just give me one iota of it, and I agree with you, punish his ***

In Texas though, you all can shoot the fool back ;)

[TEK2000]

I just stated that if he were to be convicted, I would wish it to be in Virginia where the penalty fits the crime. Gun laws in FLA are crazy.

Then again if I were a punk thief who stole some ATVs and the owner pulled a gun in my face, then I probably wouldn't give a damn. I would probably gather up some of my buddies, drive to the guy's house and shoot it to hell. Then a few months later I would steal some more ATVs. Then I would act like a righteous martyr and make a big scene out of something that was my fault to begin with.

And if I were a thief and an attempted murderer, then I probably wouldn't think too much of lying to the police about the guy pulling a gun on me instead of him actually just beating the piss out of me.

So... the Rapist should walk because the girl that got raped happened to be permiscuous?

Point is... you're assessing guilt to HILL and excusing Taylor.

[TEK2000]

Where is the evidence he pulled a gun?

Just give me one iota of it, and I agree with you, punish his ***

In Texas though, you all can shoot the fool back ;)

Where is the evidence that he DIDN'T? That argument goes both ways pal.

All you can do is wait for the trial ruling before you starting trying to claim someone is guilty or innocent.

[SkinsHokieFan]

So... the Rapist should walk because the girl that got raped happened to be permiscuous?

Point is... you're assessing guilt to HILL and excusing Taylor.


Evidence my friend, evidence

The burden of proof is on the state, where is the evidence that Taylor pulled a gun?

No gun has been found. No bullets were fired by Taylor. What evidence, besides Hill's testimony is there that there was a gun?

[SkinsHokieFan]

Where is the evidence that he DIDN'T? That argument goes both ways pal.

All you can do is wait for the trial ruling before you starting trying to claim someone is guilty or innocent.


The argument does NOT go both ways my friend, not in the American legal system

The burden of proof is always on the state, presumed innocent before being proven guilty

So once again, where is the evidence?

[TEK2000]

Evidence my friend, evidence

The burden of proof is on the state, where is the evidence that Taylor pulled a gun?

No gun has been found. No bullets were fired by Taylor. What evidence, besides Hill's testimony is there that there was a gun?

Where is the conviction that Hill is a thief and attempted murder my friend, conviction.

I wasn't trying to imply that Taylor is guilty.. I was more try to get the point across that you guys are quick to discredit Hill and uphold Taylor.

That's a complete double standard you guys are using for this argument.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Where is the conviction that Hill is a thief and attempted murder my friend, conviction.

I wasn't trying to imply that Taylor is guilty.. I was more try to get the point across that you guys are quick to discredit Hill and uphold Taylor.


Once again buddy, the burden of proof is on the state. I am not even talking about Hill's past here either

Is Hill a credible witness? At this point, that is a very shaky question for the state

If you are relying on the word of street thug A against street thug B, can you prove beyond a resonable doubt street thug B is guilty of accused crime?

[TEK2000]

Once again buddy, the burden of proof is on the state.

Is Hill a credible witness? At this point, that is a very shaky question for the state

If you are relying on the word of street thug A against street thug B, can you prove beyond a resonable doubt street thug B is guilty of accused crime?

Try reading my post before you reply next time. Reading comprehension fella.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Try reading my post before you reply next time. Reading comprehension fella.


Must not make them as smart down in Texas anymore

Let me ask you this. You are a juror in this trial. Do you convict Sean Taylor on the testimony of Ryan Hill?

[TEK2000]

Once again buddy, the burden of proof is on the state. I am not even talking about Hill's past here either

Is Hill a credible witness? At this point, that is a very shaky question for the state

If you are relying on the word of street thug A against street thug B, can you prove beyond a resonable doubt street thug B is guilty of accused crime?

Its always funny to see a complete contradiction in 1 post.

"I'm not talking about his past"

"Is he a credible witness?" Credibility is based on a person's PAST.

[TEK2000]

Must not make them as smart down in Texas anymore

Let me ask you this. You are a juror in this trial. Do you convict Sean Taylor on the testimony of Ryan Hill?

Ryan Hill's testimony may not be the only EVIDENCE in this case.

THUS the reason why I said "All you can do is wait till the trial to proclaim guilt or innocence"

Try to get your stuff straight before you criticize my intelligence.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Its always funny to see a complete contradiction in 1 post.

"I'm not talking about his past"

"Is he a credible witness?" Credibility is based on a person's PAST.


Well tell me. Is he? Ultimately that is what this trial comes down to

[TEK2000]

Well tell me. Is he? Ultimately that is what this trial comes down to

Not necessarily true... I'd have to be sitting in the jury box hearing ALL the evidence before I formed an opinion.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Ryan Hill's testimony may not be the only EVIDENCE in this case.

THUS the reason why I said "All you can do is wait till the trial to proclaim guilt or innocence"

Try to get your stuff straight before you criticize my intelligence.


I guess you are not a lawyer type

Evidence is generally presented in pre trial depositions. I.E the defense knows the evidence the prosecution has, and the prosecution knows the evidence the defense has

The defense knows who the prosecutor will call to the stand, the prosecutor knows who the defense will bring to the stand

Its not like the movies where a "surprise" witness or "surprise" evidence appears

Why do you think Johnny Cochran was ready with "if it does not fit, you must acquit"

[SkinsHokieFan]

Not necessarily true... I'd have to be sitting in the jury box hearing ALL the evidence before I formed an opinion.


What OTHER evidence is there?

No gun found

No shots fired by Taylor

No pictures taken

There is no physical evidence that has been presented in pre-trial depositions

And, is Ryan Hill a credible witness? I want to know your answer on that

[TEK2000]

I guess you are not a lawyer type

Evidence is generally presented in pre trial depositions. I.E the defense knows the evidence the prosecution has, and the prosecution knows the evidence the defense has

The defense knows who the prosecutor will call to the stand, the prosecutor knows who the defense will bring to the stand

Its not like the movies where a "surprise" witness or "surprise" evidence appears

Why do you think Johnny Cochran was ready with "if it does not fit, you must acquit"

I guess you're a lawyer? Do they allow Lawyers to discuss ALL details of the case in the media BEFORE the trial begins.

[Hostile]

What OTHER evidence is there?

No gun found

No shots fired by Taylor

No pictures taken

There is no physical evidence that has been presented in pre-trial depositionsHave you ever heard of a trial? The man's entitled to one and going to get it. The US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Good reading. Try it some time.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I guess you're a lawyer? Do they allow Lawyers to discuss ALL details of the case in the media BEFORE the trial begins.


I slept in a holiday inn last night

I have however gone through a civil trial and a criminal trial (got nailed by a drunk driver on October 5th, 2001 by fairfax hospital in Northern Virginia. Resulted in both a criminal and civil case)

In each case, all the evidence and testimony was presented in pre trial depositions. I had met the defense attorney's long before the trial and knew exactly what they were going to ask me and try and corner me with, because they tried to in pretrial depositions

I knew what evidence was going to be used to help their guy get off

The prosecution in this case would not hide the fact that it had say a picture of Sean Taylor holding a gun in Ryan Hill's face.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Have you ever heard of a trial? The man's entitled to one and going to get it. The US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Good reading. Try it some time.


It is isn't it

Luckily, he doesn't have members of this board on his jury or else he'd be seeing 46 years in jail

[TEK2000]

I slept in a holiday inn last night

I have however gone through a civil trial and a criminal trial (got nailed by a drunk driver on October 5th, 2001 by fairfax hospital in Northern Virginia. Resulted in both a criminal and civil case)

In each case, all the evidence and testimony was presented in pre trial depositions. I had met the defense attorney's long before the trial and knew exactly what they were going to ask me and try and corner me with, because they tried to in pretrial depositions

I knew what evidence was going to be used to help their guy get off

The prosecution in this case would not hide the fact that it had say a picture of Sean Taylor holding a gun in Ryan Hill's face.

Ok then.. do us all a favor and post a copy of these PRE-TRIAL DEPOSITIONS so we can get a look at ALL the evidence and details of the case!

[SkinsHokieFan]

To sum up this very enjoyable debate, thanks for keeping it civil tek, I do appreciate that

I am arguing here 2 things

1) The trial hinges on the jury's perception of Hill as a credible witness

2) The state has the burden of proof to prove beyond a resonable doubt Taylor is guilty

We will see what happens

As for me, 12:34 east coast time and my *** has a long day at work tommorow

Peace fellas

[TEK2000]

It is isn't it

Luckily, he doesn't have members of this board on his jury or else he'd be seeing 46 years in jail

The same could be said about you Redskins fans.

I don't get why you guys put up such 2 way arguments... any kind of comment like that can go either way depending on your opinion.

[TEK2000]

To sum up this very enjoyable debate, thanks for keeping it civil tek, I do appreciate that

I am arguing here 2 things

1) The trial hinges on the jury's perception of Hill as a credible witness

2) The state has the burden of proof to prove beyond a resonable doubt Taylor is guilty

We will see what happens

As for me, 12:34 east coast time and my *** has a long day at work tommorow

Peace fellas

Glad we could keep it civil as well.

I can't disagree with your 2 points.

I was about to have to bail myself. Later man.

[Hostile]

It is isn't it

Luckily, he doesn't have members of this board on his jury or else he'd be seeing 46 years in jailOr you because he'd be walking free even if he is guilty. Believe it or not trials are not won or lost in the newspapers.

[riggo]

ahh so its guilty until proven innocent for the guys that Taylor assulted, but its innocent until proven guilty for taylor. hypocrite

as you can tell by your next post, i am not. i admit that i believe he waved a gun. i'm just stunned by the lack of attention the 'alleged' thieves are getting. sorry, but if i had my **** stolen, i'd be pretty pissed- i dont own a gun to wave it, but i'd be pissed.

[riggo]

ahh so its guilty until proven innocent for the guys that Taylor assulted, but its innocent until proven guilty for taylor. hypocrite

sorry for the double quote- i can't seem to edit my posts- gotta adjust my browser settings or some crap...but-

as far as innocent until proven guilty- can you show me one poster who has given taylor the same treatment?

[riggo]

Then again if I were a punk thief who stole some ATVs and the owner pulled a gun in my face, then I probably wouldn't give a damn. I would probably gather up some of my buddies, drive to the guy's house and shoot it to hell. Then a few months later I would steal some more ATVs. Then I would act like a righteous martyr and make a big scene out of something that was my fault to begin with.



amen.

[riggo]

skinshokie brings up the main point in the case- since there is no evidence other than the witness, is the witness credible? that's what it will come down to. like i said, he probably did wave a gun- but hills credibility will not hold up, barring some unknown fact.

i'd still like to know how the 'alleged' ATV thief got the charges dropped.

[MossBurner]

So... the Rapist should walk because the girl that got raped happened to be permiscuous?

Point is... you're assessing guilt to HILL and excusing Taylor.

No, I'm playing devil's advocate.

Rape is awful, but NO ONE SHOULD BE CONVICTED WITHOUT PROOF! RAPE, MURDER, SHOPLIFTING!

[MossBurner]

I guess you're a lawyer? Do they allow Lawyers to discuss ALL details of the case in the media BEFORE the trial begins.

Um, yes.

[zrinkill]

The trial hinges on the jury's perception of Hill as a credible witness

What about their perception of Taylor being a piece of trash thug? Anyone (other than a redskin fan) who looks at his history will see a pattern of behavior that shows the guy is unstable and a possible threat.

[Chocolate Lab]

Hilarious how Skins fans only care about Taylor's case from a legal persective. Yes, criminal cases in this country put the burden of proof on the prosecution and the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard is a very tough standard to meet. So Taylor probably will escape these charges.

But so what? You're conveniently ignoring the bigger picture: That Taylor is a punk thug who hangs out with drug running, assault-weapons brandishing hoodlums -- if he isn't one himself. You don't care about that?

Obviously not.

[trickblue]

So... the Rapist should walk because the girl that got raped happened to be permiscuous?

Point is... you're assessing guilt to HILL and excusing Taylor.

amen.
Again... playing Devil's advocate, where is the proof that Hill stole his ATV's?

You are justifying him waving a gun but yet there is no proof that Hill committed the crime...

I would have a BIG problem having a gun waved in my face at any time, ESPECIALLY if I didn't do the crime...

[sacase]

skinshokie brings up the main point in the case- since there is no evidence other than the witness, is the witness credible? that's what it will come down to. like i said, he probably did wave a gun- but hills credibility will not hold up, barring some unknown fact.

i'd still like to know how the 'alleged' ATV thief got the charges dropped.

How do you know that it is the only evidence against him? Do you have access to all of the information to the case or just the information that has been allowed in the media?

There are discovery issues so no you don't know all the information in the case.

Here is how I see it, if you want to assume that Hill stole the ATV's then you have to assume ST pulled a gun.

Also quit throwing around the 46 years BS, I seriously doubt that they would give him 3 consecutive sentences for his first offense. He would get the minimum. 3 concurrent sentences. I don't mind the florida gun laws to be honest. Why is that an issue. What reason other than self defense does a person have a right to pull a gun on someone. ST instigated the incident and played vigilante, he needs to pay the price. Yes I belive he is guilty from the information that I know. Yes I belive that he tried to get a gun in the club, yes his buddies have all kinds of illegal stuff in the house that he had the ATV's at.

As far as finding out why the charges were dropped on Hill and Williams, why don't you request the court record, that is public record.

I love how you assume that Hill and Williams are guilty of stealing ST's ATV's. Since you are so big on PHYSICAL evidence. Where is it? Do you got finger prints the police don't know about? Pictures? Video? I wanna see it otherwise innocent until proven guilty.

One thing about ST he is a wanna be thug. He went to private school, he lived in the burbs, dad was a police chief. He was NOT ghetto, so no you can't blame his enviroment. I think he is mildly retarded. Product of the florida Educational system....

Off topic real fast....remind me of my first impressin of the Women I met in Tampa. They were steady trying to talk to me and sound intelligent and I was sitting there thinking to myself "please shut the **** up, just stand there and look cute."

Sean Taylor = Studio Gangster.

Oh yeah a couple of other things I need to add, yes he will get community service at least. HE has all but admitted to punching the guy so yes he will be convicted of that, and that I belive is a misdmeanor. Yes they guy hill will get money from him. two reasons one he did punch him so that gives him a little cash, two the threats that have been given to him that make him scared for his life, three it will be civil court so you don't need 100% of the jury to get a judgement against him, you only need 51% and that my friends is not hard to do at all. So at the end of the day ST's pockets will be much lighter and he will at the very least get community service.

One thing I do find curious that kinda helps ST is do they have a warrent out for the Jamacian guy who had the M-16? He needs to be on trial too.

[MossBurner]

Again... playing Devil's advocate, where is the proof that Hill stole his ATV's?

You are justifying him waving a gun but yet there is no proof that Hill committed the crime...

I would have a BIG problem having a gun waved in my face at any time, ESPECIALLY if I didn't do the crime...

Read the article. Stolen ATVs were found in a truck that Hill was driving.

[trickblue]

Read the article. Stolen ATVs were found in a truck that Hill was driving.
One of us DID read the article (hint: It was me)... :D

The Taylor incident was in June of 2005...

The alledged stolen ATV's in Hill's truck were discovered on March 4, 2006...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/cowboyszone/thread_stuff/learn_to_read.jpg ;)

[rdsknsbaby]

You are wasting your time, Chocolate Lab.

Again, you are preaching to the very same imbeciles who derided Michael Irvin, yet out of the other sides of their mouths praise this street hood. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

It doesn't surprise me that Redskin fans embrace scum. They have always had no class.

ummm.... ok, and this is coming from someone who loves the team that Micheal Irving played on... you know a crack head who beat up women.

[rdsknsbaby]

One of us DID read the article (hint: It was me)... :D

The Taylor incident was in June of 2005...

The alledged stolen ATV's in Hill's truck were discovered on March 4, 2006...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/cowboyszone/thread_stuff/learn_to_read.jpg ;)

does that matter?!?!?!?! they were stolen. it doesnt matter who they were stolen from... they were still stolen... you learn how to read

[TEK2000]

ummm.... ok, and this is coming from someone who loves the team that Micheal Irving played on... you know a crack head who beat up women.

Great argument.. you just proved absolutely nothing. If he's convicted, I guess its wrong for you to love the TEAM that Sean Taylor played on...?

Just to enlighten you.. there's a BIG DIFFERENCE between loving the TEAM that someone plays for and loving THE PLAYER. A simply example: Many Cowboy fans despise Terrell Owens but still LOVE THE TEAM that he plays for.

[rdsknsbaby]

Great argument.. you just proved absolutely nothing. If he's convicted, I guess its wrong for you to love the TEAM that Sean Taylor played on...?

Just to enlighten you.. there's a BIG DIFFERENCE between loving the TEAM that someone plays for and loving THE PLAYER. A simply example: Many Cowboy fans despise Terrell Owens but still LOVE THE TEAM that he plays for.


actually ive seen 1 maybe 2 people who have said that they dislike him.

[TEK2000]

actually ive seen 1 maybe 2 people who have said that they dislike him.

What in the hell does that have to do with anything? If that statement is in response to the Terrell Owens example... MY GOD you need to let this argument go because you are obviously out of points to discuss. You missed the entire point of the post completely.

[StanleySpadowski]

If Redskins fans want to discuss the criminal records of the thugs/victims in this case, don't you think it would also be fair to discuss the criminal records of the thugs/posse that accompanied Taylor on his little vigilante mission?


I doubt you really want to compare rap sheets. There weren't any choir boys involved.

[DragonCowboy]

how do you know he made that page?

Wow, you're such a ******* homer! What if Grieco didn't make his page?

[trickblue]

does that matter?!?!?!?! they were stolen. it doesnt matter who they were stolen from... they were still stolen... you learn how to read
ummm... yes it does... if he didn't steal Taylor's ATV's then Taylor certainly wasn't justified in brandishing a weapon at him...

They did NOT recover his ATV's from Hill...

Me learn how to read? Your blinding homerism doesn't allow you to think straight...

Now, I have been very civil in this thread and I've never even had dialogue with you to my knowledge, so I suggest you back off...

It's not very smart to bring a knife to a gun fight...

[MossBurner]

One of us DID read the article (hint: It was me)... :D

The Taylor incident was in June of 2005...

The alledged stolen ATV's in Hill's truck were discovered on March 4, 2006...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/cowboyszone/thread_stuff/learn_to_read.jpg ;)

You asked for proof that he stole ATVs. Stolen ATVs were found in a truck that he was driving. That's what I said.

[MossBurner]

If Redskins fans want to discuss the criminal records of the thugs/victims in this case, don't you think it would also be fair to discuss the criminal records of the thugs/posse that accompanied Taylor on his little vigilante mission?


I doubt you really want to compare rap sheets. There weren't any choir boys involved.

I have never heard about Sean's friends criminal history...Are you making this up?

[StanleySpadowski]

I have never heard about Sean's friends criminal history...Are you making this up?



I'd suggest doing a little research before accusing me of "making it up" and just because you've never heard about something doesn't mean squat to the veracity. You probably haven't heard that two plus two equals four but that doesn't make it any less of a undisputable fact.

[MossBurner]

I'd suggest doing a little research before accusing me of "making it up" and just because you've never heard about something doesn't mean squat to the veracity. You probably haven't heard that two plus two equals four but that doesn't make it any less of a undisputable fact.

I've read every article from Miami-based, DC-based, and Richmond-based newspapers concerning this case since last summer.

Not once have any specific comments been made about the criminal convictions or questionable legal problems of Sean's friends.

Last fall, the Washington Post reported that Sean's friend refused a plea deal that would have avoided himself jailtime if he would testify against Sean.

Last winter, an investigative report in the Washington Post interviewed many of Sean's neighbors in Miami that he grew up with. Several of them said that he didn't "hang with the best crowd". But Sean grew up in the ghettos of Miami, so...

Don't throw around false information and not expect to get called out on it. You were wrong. Past convictions of the thieves in Sean's case are the only ones that have been made public around this case.

[sacase]

But Sean grew up in the ghettos of Miami, so...

Don't throw around false information and not expect to get called out on it. You were wrong. Past convictions of the thieves in Sean's case are the only ones that have been made public around this case.

:bang2: Sean Taylor NEVER grew up in the damn ghetto!!!!!! He has no excuse except he thinks the ghetto lifestyle is cool. He wants to live the music video.

[MossBurner]

:bang2: Sean Taylor NEVER grew up in the damn ghetto!!!!!! He has no excuse except he thinks the ghetto lifestyle is cool. He wants to live the music video.

CORRECTION: Sean and Ryan Hill (ATV thief) both grew up in the worst neighborhoods of Miami.

[WoodysGirl]

I've read every article from Miami-based, DC-based, and Richmond-based newspapers concerning this case since last summer.

Not once have any specific comments been made about the criminal convictions or questionable legal problems of Sean's friends.

I tend to stay out of these threads, but did you read the very first post in this thread? I wanted to point out that convictions or not, this McFarlane cat is one bad dude and Taylor was his boy. They were FRIENDS.


When Taylor's rookie season ended in early 2005, he chose to return to Miami rather than stay in Virginia near the Redskins. He sometimes crashed with friends like Michael McFarlane, a Jamaican who lived in West Perrine near Ryan Hill.

-----

On the last day of May 2005, after cruising the area with a friend, Taylor parked his new ATVs at McFarlane's house. Taylor left the vehicles overnight, though he did not stay at the house himself, according to Carhart.

------

The house is a compact ranch on a street where rims are stolen off cars in broad daylight. Michael Bowen, the current owner, bought the house nine months ago. Bowen says McFarlane left plenty behind when he moved out.

"I found at least 200 pairs of Timberlands, all brand-new, never been worn," says Bowen, referring to expensive and trendy hiking boots. "He left closets full of new clothes, fashionable stuff that didn't fit me, unfortunately. There were hundreds of photographs of people with machine guns and naked women sitting on their laps, boxes of photographs that I finally threw away a couple months ago."

In a laundry room near an in-ground pool, Bowen pulls down a box, which he opens to reveal shiny rows of ammunition.

"There were buckets of bullets when I moved in here," he says. "Buckets! Shotgun shells, handgun shells, machine gun, everything. Bullets in the shed, in every bedroom, everywhere, thousands of bullets."

In a maroon storage shed located in the back yard, Bowen says he unearthed cases of hard liquor. He points at a red Igloo cooler splattered with mud.
"That's where I found the marijuana, at least a pound of it," he says. "This was a party crib, for sure."


All of that was in the VERY FIRST post... McFarlane was gangsta no doubt about it...May not have been convicted for anything as of yet, but no doubt that house was a "thug mansion" and he and Taylor were tight.

You know the saying, "birds of a feather"

I'd hate to see a talent like Taylor get taken down, but when you put yourself in these idiotic positions, you deserve whatever you get.

[trickblue]

You asked for proof that he stole ATVs. Stolen ATVs were found in a truck that he was driving. That's what I said.
No I certainly did NOT... believe me... I know what I said...

here are the exact quotes...

Where is the proof they stole his ATVs?

Again... playing Devil's advocate, where is the proof that Hill stole his ATV's?

You are justifying him waving a gun but yet there is no proof that Hill committed the crime...

I would have a BIG problem having a gun waved in my face at any time, ESPECIALLY if I didn't do the crime...
I love spirited banter as long as it doesn't get personal...

What I don't like, is being misquoted...

Again... several of you have alluded to the fact that Taylor was justfied because Hill stole his ATV's...

I'm just looking for the proof... they are obviously both idiot thugs, but that doesn't mean either is guilty or innocent...

You are giving Taylor the benefit of the doubt and not Hill...

You CAN have it both ways, it's just not clear, logical thinking...

[riggo]

Wow, you're such a ******* homer! What if Grieco didn't make his page?

dragon, wake up, dude. do a search on and you'll find a bunch of pages supposedly made by the skins sean taylor.

thats not homerism- its common sense. (homerism from me? the guy who believes he waved a gun? ok...)

and there is no question that that is/was greico's page. there was never a reason to question why someone would make a page about his DJ business and pretend it was him. and he never denied it was his page.

i can't believe i just had to explain that???? :confused:


Channel 10 (http://www.local10.com/news/8645327/detail.html) has the Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office response: While nothing on Assistant State Attorney Mike Grieco's Web site compromised the integrity of the Sean Taylor case, Mr. Grieco, as the prosecutor, feels that the case is more important than any individual who would prosecute it. The desire to smear a prosecutor and affect a potential jury pool is a reprehensible trial tactic. Every case should be decided by the relevant evidence presented to a jury.

"To insure the proper handling of this case, Mr. Grieco has reluctantly asked to have another Assistant State Attorney replace him as he sees himself becoming the courtroom focus, rather than the individual charged with the criminal offense.

"Unfortunately, Mr. Grieco had not deleted the messages and images sent to him at his personal website. That has been rectified and he has disabled the website."
yeah. your probably right. it cant be his site....

[StanleySpadowski]

I've read every article from Miami-based, DC-based, and Richmond-based newspapers concerning this case since last summer.

Not once have any specific comments been made about the criminal convictions or questionable legal problems of Sean's friends.

Last fall, the Washington Post reported that Sean's friend refused a plea deal that would have avoided himself jailtime if he would testify against Sean.

Last winter, an investigative report in the Washington Post interviewed many of Sean's neighbors in Miami that he grew up with. Several of them said that he didn't "hang with the best crowd". But Sean grew up in the ghettos of Miami, so...

Don't throw around false information and not expect to get called out on it. You were wrong. Past convictions of the thieves in Sean's case are the only ones that have been made public around this case.


I see WG already schooled you somewhat but good gawd almighty are you really that obtuse?

Just because something isn't included in newspaper articles means it doesn't exist? or isn't "public"?

There's this really neat new thing called the interweb or something like that. Ya get on your computer and go to this place called "Google" and type something in (like the name of Taylor's acquaintances) and all kinds of stories pop up on your computer (you know, like public arrest records and that sort of thing).

[MossBurner]

I see WG already schooled you somewhat but good gawd almighty are you really that obtuse?

Just because something isn't included in newspaper articles means it doesn't exist? or isn't "public"?

There's this really neat new thing called the interweb or something like that. Ya get on your computer and go to this place called "Google" and type something in (like the name of Taylor's acquaintances) and all kinds of stories pop up on your computer (you know, like public arrest records and that sort of thing).

The burden of proof about these convictions is on you. Google away bud.

I'm not saying ST's friends are choir boys; these guys aren't my friends. I'm just saying that I have never read about convictions of ST's friends. As much as newspapers (even in DC) love to smear Sean and parade this case, I would have thought that these hypothetical convictions would have been leaked to the public by now. They haven't and you're assuming that they exist.

[peplaw06]

heres a better summary-
"So let me get this straight. Taylor owns some atvs. Has them on his property. A couple of retarded thugs steal his atvs. Taylor supposedly pulls a gun?? Is that it? He pulled a gun??? Whats the big deal? Seems to me the retards are lucky they didnt get shot."

yep. thats a good one. Sorry to jump in so late here, but had to correct a few things. Defense of property doesn't allow someone to go waving guns around because someone allegedly stole their property. The only property that is defensible in this manner is your home, and that's not even always defensible. This is according to federal Criminal law

if you all werent so homerific, you'd see that the article states that the states star witnessand the person who had charges dropped is a convicted felon.

""Honestly, on my daddy, we did not steal that stuff from him," said Williams, a high school dropout who describes himself as retarded. Hill, talking outside his mother's apartment, insists he is not a criminal. He claims to have no idea who shot Taylor's Yukon. He says he's never stolen an ATV. Is this section you quoted supposed to state where Hill is a "convicted felon," because I don't see it. I didn't see it anywhere else in the article either. i'm just going off what's in this article though, if you have other proof that he's a felon then I apologize.

Also, this information probably won't be allowed into evidence, unless Hill opens the door by testifying affirmatively about it. Uncharged/unconvicted offenses typically aren't allowed to impeach a witness unless they open the door themselves.


Police disagreed on that last claim, at least briefly.
On Saturday, March 4, of this year, at 3:10 in the morning, two Miami-Dade Police officers pulled over a 2002 Chevy pickup occupied by two black men. In the bed of the truck sat an ATV with the ignition ripped out. A check of its seventeen-digit vehicle identification number revealed the ATV had been stolen the day before.
The passenger was Maurice "Fat Boy" Williams. The driver was Ryan Hill. The pair was arrested for grand theft, but those charges were dropped a month later."

dropped? why in the hell were the charges dropped?
Charges are typically dropped when the prosecution doesn't have the evidence to convict. Who knows what they had from this blurb??

a circus clown could win an acquittal in this case. you could see that if you took off the glasses...
If a circus clown could win an acquittal in this case, the case wouldn't be going forward.

ok. so, in summary...

a self admitted retarted man who was pulled over with stolen ATV's- but the charges are dropped - steals ATV's from taylor, he waves a gun in an attempt to get them back, gets shot at, the prosecutor get dismissed for using his position to further his career as a DJ, taylor rejects an offer that includes no jail time.....

nothing wierd there.
The allegedly stolen ATV's weren't Taylor's at least, not according to this article. And if Taylor waved the gun first, he should expect to get shot at. That means he's the instigator. The shooters could easily claim self-defense in that scenario.

The prosecutor's dismissal for trying to further his career as a DJ hardly has anything to do with the merits of the State's case against Taylor. The prosecutor messed up, but it didn't affect the evidence in the case. He has been dismissed, so the state has no concerns about him anymore.

And did Taylor really reject an offer that included no jail time?? I wanna see that proof, because if he did, that's retarded.

Someone stated that a possible witness rejected an offer for no jail time in exchange for testimony against Taylor, but that's not the same. That is just an instance of someone taking up for his boy, but now he could be prosecuted too if he refused the deal.

In Florida where the penalties are ridiculous, no.

If he were convicted in Virginia with a first time offense, sure. He would get no jail time for brandishing a weapon. Probably suspended 2 games.

Go back and read the part where the possible sentence comes from the mandatory minimum sentencing guidelines. Meaning Federal law mandates that if he's convicted, he will serve at least 3 years. Therefore it doesn't matter if it's in Florida or Virginia.

[Alexander]

Great argument.. you just proved absolutely nothing. If he's convicted, I guess its wrong for you to love the TEAM that Sean Taylor played on...?

Just to enlighten you.. there's a BIG DIFFERENCE between loving the TEAM that someone plays for and loving THE PLAYER. A simply example: Many Cowboy fans despise Terrell Owens but still LOVE THE TEAM that he plays for.

And there are a few members of the lunatic fringe who LOVED Irvin no matter what, but speaking for myself and friends I had at that time, many of us were livid that Irvin was continually compromising the franchise with his antics and wouldn't hesistate to label him what he was, an immature punk who needed to grow up.

What I see in this case is no acknowledgment of facts, and blind hero worship on the part of idiot Redskin fans on the side of Taylor. The very same individuals who made offhand comments about the Cowboys and their reputation for years (and still ignorantly do). That is the crux of this whole arguement.

[MossBurner]

And there are a few members of the lunatic fringe who LOVED Irvin no matter what, but speaking for myself and friends I had at that time, many of us were livid that Irvin was continually compromising the franchise with his antics and wouldn't hesistate to label him what he was, an immature punk who needed to grow up.

What I see in this case is no acknowledgment of facts, and blind hero worship on the part of idiot Redskin fans on the side of Taylor. The very same individuals who made offhand comments about the Cowboys and their reputation for years (and still ignorantly do). That is the crux of this whole arguement.

Sean has been convicted of nothing. I hate that he spit at Pittman in the playoff game. Other than that, I have no problems with him and his personal life and character. If he is convicted of this crime, my opinion of him will change. The US has a judicial system for a reason.

[SkinFaninOKC]

Ryan Hill is not a great witness. He will get torn to pieces on the witness stand. The dude got caught with stolen ATV's then the case get thrown out a month later?? ***!!! Maybe the county prosecutors are out to get Sean?? He is a big fish in THAT pond.

ST says he didn't brandish a gun. Several others said he did. Who is telling the truth?? That is up to the jury unless the case gets thrown out. Everyone involved in the situation, ST included, are of questionable character.

It's too bad ST got himself in this mess and I hope he doesn't do any jail time. However if he does go to jail I would hope Dan Snyder would welcome him back and give him a second chance. The guy is incredible. ST just needs to not "keep it real."

[Alexander]

I hate that he spit at Pittman in the playoff game.

And he also spat on T.J. Houshmandzadeh.

He is a scumbag, on and off the field. It is his character. He has no class and is a punk thug.

Other than that, I have no problems with him and his personal life and character. If he is convicted of this crime, my opinion of him will change. The US has a judicial system for a reason.

Again, you condone thuggery on and off the field, yet you all condemn and ridicule misdeeds of the Cowboys that all occurred off the field. Yet the hypocrisy doesn't register.

[Yeagermeister]

Like I have said all along. If he gets anything it will be a slap on the wrist because he's a pro athlete. I except maybe probabtion or community service at the most.

[MossBurner]

Again, you condone thuggery on and off the field, yet you all condemn and ridicule misdeeds of the Cowboys that all occurred off the field. Yet the hypocrisy doesn't register.

I am not acquaintances with ST, neither are you to the best of my knowledge. I have never witnessed his actions except on Sundays and at training camp. I can only condemn actions that have been proven or followed by conviction or plea bargain (committed by Redskins or Cowboys). It would be wrong to judge people on hearsay, acquittals, etc...

[InmanRoshi]

Pretty much confirms what I already suspected about Taylor.

Just, please ... ES'ers .... spare us all of the baloney about how classy Joe Gibbs doesn't tolerate hooligans and thugs on his team. Say all you will about Sean Taylor being justified, innocent or wrongly accused, if he didn't have Pro Bowl talent Gibbs would have kicked him off the team for getting into an incident like this after skipping offseason workouts and not returning his phone calls about his whereabouts. Gibbs just like every other coach in the NFL ... he's tolerate anything as long as they help the bottomline. Nothing more, nothing less. He proved that long ago with Dexter Manley. Quit deifying the man. He's a good football coach. Leave it at that.

[MossBurner]

Pretty much confirms what I already suspected about Taylor.

Just, please ... ES'ers .... spare us all of the baloney about how classy Joe Gibbs doesn't tolerate hooligans and thugs on his team. Say all you will about Sean Taylor being justified, innocent or wrongly accused, if he didn't have Pro Bowl talent Gibbs would have kicked him off the team for getting into an incident like this after skipping offseason workouts and not returning his phone calls about his whereabouts. Gibbs just like every other coach in the NFL ... he's tolerate anything as long as they help the bottomline. Nothing more, nothing less. He proved that long ago with Dexter Manley. Quit deifying the man. He's a good football coach. Leave it at that.

I think this is a misconception about most Skins fans' claims. Real Skins fans know that like many coaches, Gibbs has tolerated problem players in the past (Dexter Manley). Gibbs, in 99% of cases, seeks high character players. That does not mean that he won't tolerate extremely talented players with questionable characters once they are already on the team. What is Gibbs supposed to do, cut the 5th overall pick? And for what? Sean has not been convicted. He has never been suspended by the league.

[leotisbrown]

Damn I wantsed him to get that 40 years in soltairee confined cell. But still obvious that Sean's Tailor significant of his being a thug.

I states that he got away with things but only because his lawyer greased up some of the trial judges and prosecuters so they not put him in jail wear its mostly certain he be write now if not for the fact he a big time NFL player for the Deadskins. Plus he got away with spitting all over the faces of players like they a spitoon with no thought of being sorry for doing bad on his hole soul.

Redemption not for him.

I hates him up something fearce and hopes mostly that the next time he brakes the laws he gets whtas comming to him but good with extra bad stuff for playing for Snyder and his demon worship type teams.

They all can go back to hell also called DC!!

[peplaw06]

Damn I wantsed him to get that 40 years in soltairee confined cell. But still obvious that Sean's Tailor significant of his being a thug.

I states that he got away with things but only because his lawyer greased up some of the trial judges and prosecuters so they not put him in jail wear its mostly certain he be write now if not for the fact he a big time NFL player for the Deadskins. Plus he got away with spitting all over the faces of players like they a spitoon with no thought of being sorry for doing bad on his hole soul.

Redemption not for him.

I hates him up something fearce and hopes mostly that the next time he brakes the laws he gets whtas comming to him but good with extra bad stuff for playing for Snyder and his demon worship type teams.

They all can go back to hell also called DC!!

:lmao2::lmao2: I love this guy's rants:lmao::lmao:

[SkinsHokieFan]

http://www.edkleese.blogspot.com/

A good view on how Redskins fans REALLY feel ;)