Reason to believe in Kyle Kosier (sarcasm)

[DeWare94]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iEGbk5ILBII&search=Lavar%20arrington
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[parchy]

I could probably find you a YouTube video of Jerry Rice getting punked by Derek Ross.

Plays define games. Seasons define players. Show me that happening 20 more times before it means anything.

[TheHustler]

Well, one bad play against one of the NFL's best LBs.

Yup, he's worthless.

Let's move on.

[DeWare94]

whoa, calm down im just playin

[Everlastingxxx]

Get a life.

[DeWare94]

lmao...

[burmafrd]

is anyone really dumb enough to evaluate a player on ONE play?
Got to wonder about the thread starter.

[ravidubey]

It's sarcasm; besides this clip is old, old news.

It's ironic that a relative unknown named Kyle Kosier is taking over for one of the greatest Cowboys of all time and even more ironic that they have essentially switched teams.

But Kosier is heading into his prime while Allen is riding off into the sunset. Ireland's track record has been solid thus far, and he believes in Kosier which is good enough for me until proven otherwise.

[Hoov]

It's sarcasm; besides this clip is old, old news.

It's ironic that a relative unknown named Kyle Kosier is taking over for one of the greatest Cowboys of all time and even more ironic that they have essentially switched teams.

But Kosier is heading into his prime while Allen is riding off into the sunset. Ireland's track record has been solid thus far, and he believes in Kosier which is good enough for me until proven otherwise.

I think one of the reasons the Boys moved so fast on Kosier is the fact that he has played and started at every OLine position but Center.

How many OLinemen with only 4 years in the NFL have started more than one game at LT,RT and both guard positions.

I dont think Kosier is the saviour to our OLine, but i welcome this type of player and think it is a step in the right direction. Doesnt mean i think that the OLine will be a strength in 2006, but this is a good place to start the rebuilding of a unit that has performed poorly the past few years.

[Fla Cowpoke]

I agree....Kosier should be a good addition.

And in case anyone forgets, do you remember a play in Larry Allen's rookie year where Reggie White rag dolled him? If that was the only image you had of LA, no one would beleive you if you said he was one of the best linemen to ever play the game.

There have been good reports about Petitti too. I have had his back, and it sounds like my faith in him has been well placed. Sounds like he has worked hard to get stronger, and I am willing to bet his technique on the right side is going to be much better.

[The30YardSlant]

We're going to look really stupid when Larry Allen makes his 11th Pro Bowl and we are stuck with Kyle Freakin Kosier

[Alexander]

We're going to look really stupid when Larry Allen makes his 11th Pro Bowl and we are stuck with Kyle Freakin Kosier

If Allen makes the Pro Bowl this year with the Niners, it will be on reputation only. Just like the last few nominations he has received.

[superpunk]

We're going to look really stupid when Larry Allen makes his 11th Pro Bowl and we are stuck with Kyle Freakin Kosier

Maybe.

Or maybe we'll be just as upset as when DeAngelo Hall made the pro-bowl for "shutting down" TO, while Terrence freaking Newman shut people down week after week.

[The30YardSlant]

If Allen makes the Pro Bowl this year with the Niners, it will be on reputation only. Just like the last few nominations he has received.

Of course it will :rolleyes:

[The30YardSlant]

Maybe.

Or maybe we'll be just as upset as when DeAngelo Hall made the pro-bowl for "shutting down" TO, while Terrence freaking Newman shut people down week after week.

Until midway through last season, I and any sane Dallas fan would have traded Newman for Hall without thinking twice. Now, Newman has improved quit a bit, and is an elite cover corner, but in no way is he a far better player than Hall. Both are greats corners.

[superpunk]

Until midway through last season, I and any sane Dallas fan would have traded Newman for Hall without thinking twice.

Sane?

Or people who buy into the hype machine - without actually watching players play?:cool:

[The30YardSlant]

Sane?

Or people who buy into the hype machine - without actually watching players play?:cool:

Newman was coming off a terrible, awful, God foresaken season in which he was burned right and left. Hall was the clear cut better player going into last season. Newman improved and reached Hall's level, but DeAngelo has been more consistant over their young careers.

[superpunk]

Newman was coming off a terrible, awful, God foresaken season in which he was burned right and left. Hall was the clear cut better player going into last season. Newman improved and reached Hall's level, but DeAngelo has been more consistant over their young careers.

Only a fool would try to judge Newman off that 2004 campaign in which the entire defense was hapless, and had no pass rush. Hall would have looked no better.

[VoR]

We're going to look really stupid when Larry Allen makes his 11th Pro Bowl and we are stuck with Kyle Freakin Kosier
I'll let the season actually play out before I
a.) call Kyle Kosier "Freakin"
b.) think it was a mistake to let LA go
:rolleyes:

[DLCassidy]

whoa, calm down im just playin

You do know how old that clip is, right?

[DLCassidy]

We're going to look really stupid when Larry Allen makes his 11th Pro Bowl and we are stuck with Kyle Freakin Kosier

Do you watch the games? Just wondering.

[superpunk]

Do you watch the games? Just wondering.

You can stop wondering.

It's been established that HH is perfectly capable of judging play without having watched a player.

Stat lines are the ish.

Not sure how that works for Olineman, though....

[The30YardSlant]

Do you watch the games? Just wondering.

Are we really going to get into a debate about who the better guard is, LA or Kyle Kosier? The greatest guard to ever live vs a guy the Detroit Lions didnt want.

[Alexander]

You can stop wondering.

It's been established that HH is perfectly capable of judging play without having watched a player.

Stat lines are the ish.

Not sure how that works for Olineman, though....

That's a tough one.

When in doubt, then you can use useless Pro Bowl appearances as your measuring stick.:rolleyes:

[The30YardSlant]

Only a fool would try to judge Newman off that 2004 campaign in which the entire defense was hapless, and had no pass rush. Hall would have looked no better.

If's and but's are great and all, but you cant say Hall would have done no better because you simply dont know. Very weak

[The30YardSlant]

That's a tough one.

When in doubt, then you can use useless Pro Bowl appearances as your measuring stick.:rolleyes:

Or the fact that LA, on his worst day, never got bulldozed by a LB :rolleyes:

LA is the better lineman, there is no debating that. Kosier may turn out to be good, but no one can honestly argue that he is better than Allen.

[Hoov]

We're going to look really stupid when Larry Allen makes his 11th Pro Bowl and we are stuck with Kyle Freakin Kosier

just saw this post, and now i feel even better about us signing kosier and letting LA go.

[ravidubey]

Newman was coming off a terrible, awful, God foresaken season in which he was burned right and left. Hall was the clear cut better player going into last season. Newman improved and reached Hall's level, but DeAngelo has been more consistant over their young careers.

Newman has done more with less his entire career. He's never had a single pass rusher on his team of the calibre of a Patrick Kearney yet he lankets his guy week after week.

The guy also is a fumble hound-- what sealed this impression for me was that play vs. Denver when Roy Knocked a ball loose inside the 10 yard line and it looked like it was headed out of bounds for sure but Newman came out of nowhere and dove on it to create a turnover.

He doesn't have the splashy personality or a super-cool name like "Champ" or "DeAngelo" but he was the best cover guy playing in 2005.

[The30YardSlant]

Newman has done more with less his entire career. He's never had a single pass rusher on his team of the calibre of a Patrick Kearney yet he lankets his guy week after week.

The guy also is a fumble hound-- what sealed this impression for me was that play vs. Denver when Roy Knocked a ball loose inside the 10 yard line and it looked like it was headed out of bounds for sure but Newman came out of nowhere and dove on it to create a turnover.

He doesn't have the splashy personality or a super-cool name like "Champ" or "DeAngelo" but he was the best cover guy playing in 2005.

He's very good, but people...... :banghead:

[Alexander]

Or the fact that LA, on his worst day, never got bulldozed by a LB :rolleyes:

No, Allen would never make contact with those LBers to get bulldozed. And as for getting his lunch served to him like Kosier did in the clip, Warren Sapp did a fine job of consistently doing that each and every meeting the two have had over the past three years. But thanks for taking one play and drawing conclusions.

LA is the better lineman, there is no debating that. Kosier may turn out to be good, but no one can honestly argue that he is better than Allen.

Who is saying Allen is worse? The general consensus is that Kosier is a better fit. Nobody is saying he is "better".

[superpunk]

If's and but's are great and all, but you cant say Hall would have done no better because you simply dont know. Very weak

You're right.

In 2004, Hall plays behind the league's leading front seven in sacks. He looks good. 2005 - the Falcons are middle of the pack, he looks decent - not special.

2003, and 2005 - Newman plays behind a mid-range front seven. Mid-range pressure. He looks phenomenal. 2004, the pass rush blows, and he looks sub-par.

Maybe we need to call a rocket surgeon.

[ravidubey]

Or the fact that LA, on his worst day, never got bulldozed by a LB :rolleyes:

LA is the better lineman, there is no debating that. Kosier may turn out to be good, but no one can honestly argue that he is better than Allen.

Of course no one sane is comparing the Larry Allen of the past to Kyle Kosier!

Even the LA of 2005 to was probably better than the Kosier of 2005. But I believe Kosier is getting better while Allen's playing days are seriously winding down. Kosier will never become as good as Larry Allen was at his best, but Kosier is best for the Cowboys right now. Personnel decisions like this are what will bring Dallas back to the top of the NFL and are a major reason why I'm more excited about this team now than I've been in 10 years.

[superpunk]

just saw this post, and now i feel even better about us signing kosier and letting LA go.
You and me both's.!

[Alexander]

just saw this post, and now i feel even better about us signing kosier and letting LA go.

:laugh1:

[superpunk]

Dude...this one time....Larry Allen got knocked off his feet by a single Reggie White paw.

No HOF for you!

[ravidubey]

He's very good, but people...... :banghead:

No one in the NFL covered like Newman did. Steve Smith (and Terrell Owens) ate DeAngelo Hall's lunch. Newman shut Smith down and had him so pissed off he got himself ejected.

Fans might buy DeAngelo Halls' jersey, but Newman gets it done on the field.

[The30YardSlant]

You're right.

In 2004, Hall plays behind the league's leading front seven in sacks. He looks good. 2005 - the Falcons are middle of the pack, he looks decent - not special.

2003, and 2005 - Newman plays behind a mid-range front seven. Mid-range pressure. He looks phenomenal. 2004, the pass rush blows, and he looks sub-par.

Maybe we need to call a rocket surgeon.

Again, speculating is fun, but means absolutely nothing. And who is feeding all of you with this BS about Newman being "phenomenal" and "the best cover man in football" in 2005? He was good, very much improved, but he was far from "phenomenal". Hardly any DBs are great anymore because of the officials. And Newman is still not on the level of Bailey, McCalister, Barber, etc. He may get there, even this year, but basing his greatness on last seaosn is not only silly, but simply false.

[RCowboyFan]

just saw this post, and now i feel even better about us signing kosier and letting LA go.

:laugh1: Yeah, me too :D

[superpunk]

Again, speculating is fun, but means absolutely nothing. And who is feeding all of you with this BS about Newman being "phenomenal" and "the best cover man in football" in 2005? He was good, very much improved, but he was far from "phenomenal".

It's called watching the games.

I love it, AND recommend it. Give it a shot.

Who knows what sort of things you might come up with....

[The30YardSlant]

Of course no one sane is comparing the Larry Allen of the past to Kyle Kosier!

Even the LA of 2005 to was probably better than the Kosier of 2005. But I believe Kosier is getting better while Allen's playing days are seriously winding down. Kosier will never become as good as Larry Allen was at his best, but Kosier is best for the Cowboys right now. Personnel decisions like this are what will bring Dallas back to the top of the NFL and are a major reason why I'm more excited about this team now than I've been in 10 years.

LA will die a better guard than Kyle Kosier will ever be. Just like Jerry Rice will be better than Quincy Morgan when he's age 80 with Parkinsons. Kosier, if he improves, will be better for the price we are paying, but by no means is he or will he ever be LA, at ANY stage of their careers.

[Cowboys&Caps]

i will bet anyone that Larry Allen misses as many as 8 games and no less than 4 games this year. The dude is lazy, slow, and old. In the NFL today that is asking for injuries. I am happy w/ Kyle "freakin" Kosier and i believe in Ireland.

[wileedog]

Or the fact that LA, on his worst day, never got bulldozed by a LB :rolleyes:

No, but an aging Warren Sapp ran circles around him for an entire game last year.

Care to put up a video clip of the Raider game?

[The30YardSlant]

It's called watching the games.

I love it, AND recommend it. Give it a shot.

Who knows what sort of things you might come up with....

You want phenomenal, pop in SB 30 and watch Deion Sanders. You want good, watch Terence Newman cover Santana Moss.

Seems you have a different definition of phenomenal than I do. I reserve phenomenal for guys who have more than one great season.

BTW, I've watched every Cowboys game since 1990, so you can give up the "watch the game" schitck, its getting old, just like your undying praise for Newman.

[Fla Cowpoke]

HH31...you are full of some serious sh..., ah you get the point. Ever think when you are fighting a one man battle against a thousand idiots that you just might be the idiot? Probably never crossed your mind.

T-New did not give up a TD pass all year. Champ Bailey got torched multiple times for TD's in a game. Don't make AdamJT come in here with his stats and show you the raw numbers.

And anyone calling Ronde Barber and Chris McAlister great cover guys aren't watching. McAlister has become average as the rest of the Ravens defense has weakned. Isn't it funny how that happens. Ronde Barber is a zone corner. He very rarely plays man coverage. You can't even begin to compare him with Newman or Hall or Bailey.

That's insane.

[The30YardSlant]

No, but an aging Warren Sapp ran circles around him for an entire game last year.

Care to put up a video clip of the Raider game?

You mean the sack in which Sapp blew up Al Johnson? :rolleyes:

Try again

[Alexander]

And anyone calling Ronde Barber and Chris McAlister great cover guys aren't watching. McAlister has become average as the rest of the Ravens defense has weakned. Isn't it funny how that happens. Ronde Barber is a zone corner. He very rarely plays man coverage. You can't even begin to compare him with Newman or Hall or Bailey.

That's insane.

Uh, you do realize you are helping him prove his point here, right? McAlister and Barber are two of the best in the game.

[wileedog]

You mean the sack in which Sapp blew up Al Johnson? :rolleyes:

Try again

I'm not talking about 1 play. Sapp abused Allen almost that entire game.

[superpunk]

You want phenomenal, pop in SB 30 and watch Deion Sanders. You want good, watch Terence Newman cover Santana Moss.

Noone has been as good as Deion since Deion. Pretty reasonable yardstick you've established there...:rolleyes:

Seems you have a different definition of phenomenal than I do. I reserve phenomenal for guys who have more than one great season.

Yay! Newman's had two. What's his prize?

BTW, I've watched every Cowboys game since 1990, so you can give up the "watch the game" schitck, its getting old, just like your undying praise for Newman.

It's not schtick.

You have a rep for judging play based on.....nothing.

Needless to say your opinion doesn't carry much weight on player evaluations.

[The30YardSlant]

HH31...you are full of some serious sh..., ah you get the point. Ever think when you are fighting a one man battle against a thousand idiots that you just might be the idiot? Probably never crossed your mind.

T-New did not give up a TD pass all year. Champ Bailey got torched multiple times for TD's in a game. Don't make AdamJT come in here with his stats and show you the raw numbers.

And anyone calling Ronde Barber and Chris McAlister great cover guys aren't watching. McAlister has become average as the rest of the Ravens defense has weakned. Isn't it funny how that happens. Ronde Barber is a zone corner. He very rarely plays man coverage. You can't even begin to compare him with Newman or Hall or Bailey.

That's insane.

No, I feel like I'm fighting against a bunch of homers who have bought into the hype that gets shoveled for this team. I dont care if you, or anyone else, agrees with me, but when people start calling Newman the best corner in football, or Drew Bledsoe a top 5 QB, or Kyle Kosier an upgrade over maybe the greatest lineman to ever live, I feel obligated to say something. This board is turning into Extremeskins, what with the blue and silver glasses that everyone seems to be sporting.

Sorry, but I am not buying it. I have higher standards for greatness than most of this board seems to. I refuse to slap the greatest corner in football lable on a guy who has 1 great season. I refuse to lable a backup guard better than the best to ever play the game.

And that last paragraph discredited anything you had to say. Barber and <cCalister are two of the best in the game any way you slice it.

[Hoov]

You want phenomenal, pop in SB 30 and watch Deion Sanders. You want good, watch Terence Newman cover Santana Moss.

Seems you have a different definition of phenomenal than I do. I reserve phenomenal for guys who have more than one great season.

BTW, I've watched every Cowboys game since 1990, so you can give up the "watch the game" schitck, its getting old, just like your undying praise for Newman.

You want more than one great season from newman to say he is a top corner, but you'll deny him that honor for one average season. He played well his rookie year, had one average year playing hurt on a bad team, then rebounded with a good year. That is all he has had a chance to play yet.

But i see from your sig quote that if you like a player he doesn't even need to play a down in the nfl before being proclaimed great.

[Fla Cowpoke]

You want phenomenal, pop in SB 30 and watch Deion Sanders

Huh? The Larry Brown Super Bowl? You have the wrong corner. And they were playing against a mediocre pass offense. Ernie Mills? Yancey Thigpen?

You might want to pick a different Deion game to prove your point.

[The30YardSlant]

Huh? The Larry Brown Super Bowl? You have the wrong corner. And they were playing against a mediocre pass offense. Ernie Mills? Yancey Thigpen?

You might want to pick a different Deion game to prove your point.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

man, you just dont get it. Larry Brown had 2 INTs because Deion completely shut down the opposite side they threw at him THREE TIMES the entire game. It's starting to make sense, you equate great corner play with numbers. If they arent throwing at you, you are a very good corner. Teams still throw at Newman, albeit much less than they used to. Teams dont throw at Ronde Barber, the best pure cover corner in my eyes in football right now.

Amd I was just using an example that everyone would recognize. It was easier than saying "Hey, watch the 1998 Washington redskins game in Dallas"

Get a clue

[superpunk]

Ronde Barber really does cover that short-right zone better than any Tampa-2 corner in the league. Dude is teh hotness.

[The30YardSlant]

You want more than one great season from newman to say he is a top corner, but you'll deny him that honor for one average season. He played well his rookie year, had one average year playing hurt on a bad team, then rebounded with a good year. That is all he has had a chance to play yet.

But i see from your sig quote that if you like a player he doesn't even need to play a down in the nfl before being proclaimed great.

No, he had a good rookie year, followed by a terribkle sophmore season, then a very good 3rd year. Average doesnt do 2004 justice.

And the sig isnt proclaiming anyone great, its saying he will be at some point. You're reaching

[Fla Cowpoke]

Ronde Barber is a great zone corner...but he is NOT a cover corner. They are not the same thing. Put Barber on an island and you would have memories of Elvis Patterson. You remember him don't you? "Toast".

HH's argument is that DeAngelo Hall is way better than Newman. I'd question that he is better at all.

When is the last time a receiver had double digit catches against TNew or over a 100 yds?

[The30YardSlant]

Ronde Barber really does cover that short-right zone better than any Tampa-2 corner in the league. Dude is teh hotness.

Wow, now it's really starting to make sense.....

Speaking of not watching the games....... :rolleyes:

[parchy]

Get a clue

Why even include that in your post?

[Alexander]

Ronde Barber is a great zone corner...but he is NOT a cover corner. They are not the same thing. Put Barber on an island and you would have memories of Elvis Patterson. You remember him don't you? "Toast".

Again, you are trying to help him prove his point with this kind of ridiculous exagerration.

[superpunk]

Wow, now it's really starting to make sense.....

Speaking of not watching the games....... :rolleyes:

It will never make sense to you. So I'm not certain why I try.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Ronde Barber has help either from a safety or LB on just about every play, Newman has it rarely.

Why do you think Henry had so many passes thrown against him last year? Because no one threw to Newman's side.

[The30YardSlant]

Ronde Barber is a great zone corner...but he is NOT a cover corner. They are not the same thing. Put Barber on an island and you would have memories of Elvis Patterson. You remember him don't you? "Toast".

HH's argument is that DeAngelo Hall is way better than Newman. I'd question that he is better at all.

When is the last time a receiver had double digit catches against TNew or over a 100 yds?

Again, just repeating what's been forced down your throat by those buying into this nonsense. Calling Ronde Barber a pure zone corner is like calling Michael Irvin just a posession receiver. Yes, he does do that very well, but he gets put on an island against the best WRs in the game as much as any corner in football. Having a great man corner is an extra bonus in a cover-2. You can one player completely out of the game while having your other DBs zone up the rest of the field.

And I never said Hall was "way" better. I said at this point they are on the same level, they were not at the start of last season.

[The30YardSlant]

It will never make sense to you. So I'm not certain why I try.

Because you are blind to the truth. You guys remind me of of those Mormons who go door to door, trying to get other people to buy into their ridiculous nonsense.

[superpunk]

I Am A Mormon.

[Fla Cowpoke]

And I have the pleasure (groan) of watching just about every Bucs game since I live in Florida. And I usually go to 1-2 of their games a year.

Barber is a phenomenal zone guy. That is why he gets a lot of int's. He is not locked up one on one all the time and can play the field.

You say I am looking at only numbers but I bet there are a lot more balls thrown to Barber's vicinity than there are to Newman's. Throw in the fact that the Bucs have had one of the best pass rushes during Barber's career and you will see that he has had more help than Newman ever has.

[The30YardSlant]

Ronde Barber has help either from a safety or LB on just about every play, Newman has it rarely.

Why do you think Henry had so many passes thrown against him last year? Because no one threw to Newman's side.

I think my head is going to explode if I have to read one more exaggeration of this magnitude. Your ignorance in regards to Tampa's scheme and Barber's role, as well as to Newman's greatness, is mind-numbing. I am physically hurt by these posts.

[The30YardSlant]

I Am A Mormon.

Coincidence?

[superpunk]

Coincidence?

mind numbing.

[Fla Cowpoke]

I Am A Mormon.

Did you accidentally hit the "m" while you were typing?:lmao2:

[superpunk]

No.

But there's definitely an "Ormon" in this thread....

[The30YardSlant]

And I have the pleasure (groan) of watching just about every Bucs game since I live in Florida. And I usually go to 1-2 of their games a year.
Barber is a phenomenal zone guy. That is why he gets a lot of int's. He is not locked up one on one all the time and can play the field.

You say I am looking at only numbers but I bet there are a lot more balls thrown to Barber's vicinity than there are to Newman's. Throw in the fact that the Bucs have had one of the best pass rushes during Barber's career and you will see that he has had more help than Newman ever has.

I'm sure you do. After all, it's not like that is awfully conveinent in regards to this discussion or anything. :rolleyes:

I would really hope you are simply making this up to prove a point, otherwise I am giving your football anaylisis too much credit as it is.

Do you know how many times Ronde Barber was throw at against Washington in the playoffs last year? I could jsut tell you, but since you pay so much attention to them, I'll let you try and answer it first.

[The30YardSlant]

No.

But there's definitely an "Ormon" in this thread....

Oh wow....... :lmao:

Speechless.....

[The30YardSlant]

mind numbing.

I agree, if you arent lying, then the irony of this discussion is mind-numbing.

[The30YardSlant]

Did you accidentally hit the "m" while you were typing?:lmao2:

Well played sir, well played :laugh1:

[superpunk]

I'm sure you do. After all, it's not like that is awfully conveinent in regards to this discussion or anything. :rolleyes:

Guess "FLA_Cowpoke" escaped your astute eye...

FLA = Florida.

Just a heads up.

[Charles]

No, I feel like I'm fighting against a bunch of homers who have bought into the hype that gets shoveled for this team. I dont care if you, or anyone else, agrees with me, but when people start calling Newman the best corner in football, or Drew Bledsoe a top 5 QB, or Kyle Kosier an upgrade over maybe the greatest lineman to ever live, I feel obligated to say something. This board is turning into Extremeskins, what with the blue and silver glasses that everyone seems to be sporting.
wow :hammer:.

The Terence Newman homerism is laughable. Newman is improving, but he hasn't played at an elite level consistently like the CBs mentioned in this thread.

If Newman has been better than Hall why hasn't been hyped by the media. Newman has all the intangibles, plus he wears the :starspin . Simply, he hasn't been as good as Hall or any of the elite established CBs like Champ, Barber or McAllister.


Sorry, but I am not buying it. I have higher standards for greatness than most of this board seems to. I refuse to slap the greatest corner in football lable on a guy who has 1 great season. I refuse to lable a backup guard better than the best to ever play the game.
Don't worry Heavyhitta31. Stephen Peterman will win the LG gig. Have faith in a Nick Saban player. The kid is an athletic 6'4" 300 plus LBs. The kid tore the MCL and ACL in his right knee. Hehad to learn how to walk again.

I think Kosier is high priced utility man, to hedge our bets should either guard spot require immediate help.

And that last paragraph discredited anything you had to say. Barber and <cCalister are two of the best in the game any way you slice it.
Wow:hammer:

[superpunk]

I agree, if you arent lying, then the irony of this discussion is mind-numbing.

If tee-birds fly upside down in the winter, do their appendices become frigid?

[Alexander]

The Terence Newman homerism is laughable. Newman is improving, but he hasn't played at an elite level consistently like the QBs mentioned in this thread.

If Newman has been better than Hall why hasn't been hyped by the media. Newman has all the intangibles, plus he wears the :starspin . Simply, he hasn't been as good as Hall or any of the elite established CBs like Champ, Barber or McAllister.

Now this part, I generally agree with. I'll let Terence string together some consecutive seasons like he had last year before I place him alongside the best in the game. I have read people around here calling him "the best" and that is indeed very Extremeskins.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Well maybe you can explain it to me HH31. Tell me why it is so hard to find man to man corners but zone corners are a dime a dozen? The Two Deep Zone is a system that helps protect the corners. Our pass defense was better in Newman's first year even with Mario Edwards on the other corner because Edwards could play a little in the zone and we had Williams and Woodson in the secondary. 2004 we changed to more man coverage and Woodson was hurt all year, as well as having no corner on the other side. Last year, we played more man than ever before in the secondary, especially with Newman now having a quality corner on the other side in Henry.

Many teams have went to the Tampa Bay cover two because it is easier to find corners to play the scheme.

[zrinkill]

Sorry, but I am not buying it. I have higher standards for greatness than most of this board seems to. I refuse to slap the greatest corner in football lable on a guy who has 1 great season. I refuse to lable a backup guard better than the best to ever play the game.

Pat Watkins: The next great NFL safety



Thats funny That you would talk about your higher standards for greatness ...... then say that a 5th round rookie is the next great safety. No wonder everyone rags you

[wileedog]

[/b][/size]
f Newman has been better than Hall why hasn't been hyped by the media. Newman has all the intangibles, plus he wears the :starspin . Simply, he hasn't been as good as Hall or any of the elite established CBs like Champ, Barber or McAllister.
The same media that hypes the crap out of Larry Allen every year which gets him sent to the Pro Bowl on mediocre performance?

Yeah, there's a good idea. Judge players by their media exposure. In fact every player should be paid based on how many times John Madden says his name....

Newman had a terrific season this year. He's young, has the pedigree, and will only get better as the pass rush improves and if Henry stays healthy.

Yes, declaring him a "great" CB is probably premature. But I hardly put it at the level of Extremeskin homerism to expect that he can start to fulfill that ranking in the coming years.

[The30YardSlant]

Thats funny

Already been addressed, but apparently it escaped you. I am not proclaiming him great, Im making a prediction that at some point he will be a great safety. Maybe next year, maybe 5 years from now. Right now, he is a nothing, a no name rookie.

[Alexander]

The same media that hypes the crap out of Larry Allen every year which gets him sent to the Pro Bowl on mediocre performance?

Yeah, there's a good idea. Judge players by their media exposure. In fact every player should be paid based on how many times John Madden says his name....

Newman had a terrific season this year. He's young, has the pedigree, and will only get better as the pass rush improves and if Henry stays healthy.

Yes, declaring him a "great" CB is probably premature. But I hardly put it at the level of Extremeskin homerism to expect that he can start to fulfill that ranking in the coming years.

This is a completely reasonable assessment. But you do have people here who would state he is the among the top three corners in the league with a straight face.

There are people at Extremeskins who feel that Shawn Springs is the same way and he too gets cheated out of his just recognition. And he actually has had some consistency.

[DLCassidy]

Are we really going to get into a debate about who the better guard is, LA or Kyle Kosier? The greatest guard to ever live vs a guy the Detroit Lions didnt want.

I'm going to tread carefully here. Larry Allen IMO is one of the top 5 OL players of all time, let's get that out of the way first. But so is John Hannah, and I don't want him starting this year for us either. LA IMO is an average to above average guard at this stage of his career. It's like when Ruben Brown was in Buffalo. People filled his name in on the Pro Bowl ballot at the beginning of the year based on rep, never mind that the last 3 years or so he went he didn't deserve it. I'm not comparing the players you understand, just the situation.

Kosier? 8 teams were bidding to sign him. Our personnel guys think he's going to allow us to be more flexible in our running game. I think he has a great shot to be average to above average which is what the 2005-2006 LA is, and at less than half the cap figure. And don't use the Lions braintrust decisions to bolster your arguments- it just makes them look even dumber.

[The30YardSlant]

Well maybe you can explain it to me HH31. Tell me why it is so hard to find man to man corners but zone corners are a dime a dozen? The Two Deep Zone is a system that helps protect the corners. Our pass defense was better in Newman's first year even with Mario Edwards on the other corner because Edwards could play a little in the zone and we had Williams and Woodson in the secondary. 2004 we changed to more man coverage and Woodson was hurt all year, as well as having no corner on the other side. Last year, we played more man than ever before in the secondary, especially with Newman now having a quality corner on the other side in Henry.

Many teams have went to the Tampa Bay cover two because it is easier to find corners to play the scheme.

Great zone corners are a dime a dozen?

Okay then, name me 10 great zone corners. I'll be waiting. I'll even give you Barber, as he is a great zone corner, however he is so much more than that.

[Alexander]

And don't use the Lions braintrust decisions to bolster your arguments- it just makes them look even dumber.

:laugh1:

[superpunk]

And just so we're all clear on this.

Fla=Florida

These crazy kids with their slang and their skateboards.....

[Fla Cowpoke]

Newman doesn't get hyped because the Cowboys have not had a great team while he has been on the roster...so he doesn't get the hype. Second, he is not a self promoter in the mold of Champ Bailey and DeAngelo Hall.

Who got hurt the most by the rules that changed the way CB's could play? Cover corners like McAlister and Bailey that muscled their guys and beat them up. Why does it seem like Newman's become better now that they are playing by these new rules? Maybe, just maybe, it is because he relies least on being physical than he does with sticking on the guy.

The one weakness that Newman had was on double moves...but last year he stopped trying to jump every route and there were very few big passes completed on him.

[Charles]

Now this part, I generally agree with. I'll let Terence string together some consecutive seasons like he had last year before I place him alongside the best in the game. I have read people around here calling him "the best" and that is indeed very Extremeskins.
Yep, because some stat pushers at CNNSI decide Newman was an ALL Pro.

I like Newman, he's improved every single season. He had a bad stretch in 2004 for a couple of games, but his confidence bounced back in 2005.

I saw a confident Newman in 2005, DeAngelo has had confidence and a swagger since his 1st game.

Newman is defintaley heading in the right direction at a very good speed, I think his work ethic will make him a better player than Hall in the long run.

Is laughable when Dallas fans say Newman was the best shut down corner in the NFL and then claim the media only hype Hall and others.

When was the last time any NFL player was the best at something in a regular season and only got noticed by his fans and 1 major sports network (CNNSI)?

Reeks of homerism.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Where did I say "great" zone corners are a dime a dozen? I said zone corners are a dime a dozen. When you talk about great cover corners, very few of them are going to be playing in a cover two defense. The fact that Barber makes the talk of great corners is a credit to him. But that fact is that Newman plays in a system where his mistakes get exposed because they tend to go for huge gains because no one has his back.

Barber plays in a system that usually does not give up big plays down the sidelines or deep. The weakness is in the middle of the field, which is where teams normally attack. Another reason that Barber doesn't get a lot of balls thrown to him.

I personally think that Newman could do a better job in Tampa's defense than Barber could do in Dallas' defense.

[wileedog]

This is a completely reasonable assessment. But you do have people here who would state he is the among the top three corners in the league with a straight face.
I think he will be in a year or two. I say that with a completely straight face. And what's important is not what he has done in the past but what he is hopefully going to give us going forward.

Am I biased? Perhaps. I see Newman play a heck of a lot more than I see most corners play. But I think this past season is going to give him a lot of confidence, and there is no questioning his athletic ability.

There are people at Extremeskins who feel that Shawn Springs is the same way and he too gets cheated out of his just recognition. And he actually has had some consistency.

I'd rather have Newman than Springs, but some of them may have a point too. Springs got top money when he hit the FA market, and it wasnt only because it was Danny-Boy writing the check.

[InmanRoshi]

He made the Pro Bowl alternate as a rookie. Despite his supposed "off year" in 2004, Joyner's book proved he still performed like a Top 10 CB. Last year he was unbelievable. He shut down the best WR in the league to the point where he spontaneously combusted. I can't wait for my copy of Joyner's book to come in the mail next month to see how superior he actually was to the field. You can diminish stats all you want, but it holds a hell of a lot more water than "Chris McAllister is good because I've heard it repeated so many times it has to be true."

Newman doesn't need to prove anything. He's already there.

[Fla Cowpoke]

As for the best in the game....I am not saying that Newman is the best in the game. It's really hard to say at this point who is the best because of the rule changes. No one guy shuts down the field completely like Deion did. But Newman's name has to get mentioned when you are talking about the best.

For a shut down corner, Champ Bailey gets thrown at more and gets beat more than any of the big name cover guys. He also does make some great plays.

Comparing guys who are locked up all the time one on one with guys playing zone is apples and oranges. I don't know how to explain it any better.

The duties that Barber has compared to Newman and Hall and McAlister are so different. Barber is the best zone corner in the NFL. Don't know if any could argue that. Vasher played very in that system last year too.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Inman, I am sure I have seen Adam post numbers on the corners and Newman's numbers were at the top. Lowest percentage of passes completed against him, fewest passes thrown his way, lowest percentage of TD passes against.

Newman played last year certainly like a top 2-3 corner in the NFC and certainly within the top 5. And corner is a position where it is "what have you done for me lately"?

Sam Madison and Patrick Surtain were both considered great cover corners...but their play has slipped a lot. Because they were better for longer than Newman was, does that mean they are better now?

[Charles]

This is a completely reasonable assessment. But you do have people here who would state he is the among the top three corners in the league with a straight face.

There are people at Extremeskins who feel that Shawn Springs is the same way and he too gets cheated out of his just recognition. And he actually has had some consistency.
:hammer: The Shawn Springs example is perfect.

[InmanRoshi]

Barber, or any CB who extensively plays in Cover-2, doesn't have to worry about double moves. Anything outside of the shallow flat isn't their problem.

Without Newman, Roy Williams is just another guy ... just like he was just another guy in 2004 when we had Lance Frazier at CB and Roy had to sit back in Deep Cover 2 and compiled pedestrian numbers.

[Alexander]

Inman, I am sure I have seen Adam post numbers on the corners and Newman's numbers were at the top. Lowest percentage of passes completed against him, fewest passes thrown his way, lowest percentage of TD passes against.

Newman played last year certainly like a top 2-3 corner in the NFC and certainly within the top 5. And corner is a position where it is "what have you done for me lately"?

He certainly did play like that last year. But if he regresses this year like he did from 2003 to 2004, is he still a top cornerback? Consistency, not statistics, are going to be what people judge him by. And I am certain our coaching staff feels exactly this same way. If Newman repeats 2005 and doesn't make the post season honor roll, then yes, something is wrong.

Sam Madison and Patrick Surtain were both considered great cover corners...but their play has slipped a lot. Because they were better for longer than Newman was, does that mean they are better now?

Bad example.

[Alexander]

Without Newman, Roy Williams is just another guy

Now this is an interesting angle.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Barber, or any CB who extensively plays in Cover-2, doesn't have to worry about double moves because anything outside of the short flat isn't their problem. Its the safeties problem.

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.

Cover two corners have completely different responsibilities.

[InmanRoshi]

If the stats show that you're consistent, then you are consistent.

[Fla Cowpoke]

He says that because if Newman wasn't so good at man coverage, Roy Williams would be playing a lot more deep coverage instead of playing up at the line where he is a huge factor.

Do you really not get that?

[superpunk]

Anything outside of the shallow flat isn't their problem.

Pfffft...:eek::cool::)

[Alexander]

If the stats show that you're consistent, then you are consistent.

Even if they are from a small sample of three years?

If that's the case, then Ben Roethliberger is the greatest QB ever and needs to be enshrined right now. After all, his stats show he is consistent.

[Charles]

He made the Pro Bowl alternate as a rookie. Despite his supposed "off year" in 2004, Joyner's book proved he still performed like a Top 10 CB. Last year he was unbelievable. He shut down the best WR in the league to the point where he spontaneously combusted. I can't wait for my copy of Joyner's book to come in the mail next month to see how superior he actually was to the field. You can diminish stats all you want, but it holds a hell of a lot more water than "Chris McAllister is good because I've heard it repeated so many times it has to be true."

Newman doesn't need to prove anything. He's already there.
:lmao2: :lmao2: I love it.............The game in which Terence Newman shut down the best WR in the league (causing his combustion), I hope we somehow don't forget to mention that a certain No.94 had set up shop in the Panthers backfield.............

It's interesting how the Falcons front seven gets some mention when we talk about Hall..............but I guess Newman does it on his own:) (ps Iman - just replyin general not you specifically).

[InmanRoshi]

Look at Roy Williams numbers in 2004 when the Cowboys were forced to play Cover 2: 0 sacks, 2 INT's, 0 FF. Those are pedestrian by any definition.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Even if they are from a small sample of three years?


How many years has he played? I don't think we can use anything but the three years he has been in the league.

Big Ben must be considered among the top QB's in the league. His winning record supports that. Hall of Fame? Well, I think he needs a few more years.

I am not ready to put Newman in the Hall of Fame and I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

[Vintage]

IMO, people are getting mixed up in differentiating between being a top corner or playing like a top corner.

Silly as it may seem, there is a difference.

IMO, Newman PLAYED like a top corner last season. He had a terrific year. Few, if any CB's had better seasons.

However, he is not a top 2-3 CornerBack yet. A top CB, IMO, is someone who has played at a high level for a couple of years.

Newman played great last season. He didn't play as great in 2004, hence, why we cannot really consider him the best/one of the best CBs in the league right now.

But its certainly not a stretch (or being a homer) to say he played like a top corner last year.

If he does it again, I'd move up him up.....

[Charles]

IMO, people are getting mixed up in differentiating between being a top corner or playing like a top corner.

Silly as it may seem, there is a difference.

IMO, Newman PLAYED like a top corner last season. He had a terrific year. Few, if any CB's had better seasons.

However, he is not a top 2-3 CornerBack yet. A top CB, IMO, is someone who has played at a high level for a couple of years.

Newman played great last season. He didn't play as great in 2004, hence, why we cannot really consider him the best/one of the best CBs in the league right now.

But its certainly not a stretch (or being a homer) to say he played like a top corner last year.

If he does it again, I'd move up him up.....
Certainly not.............I agree, but calling him the Best Cover Corner last year is pure homerism.

[superpunk]

but I guess Newman does it on his own:) (ps Iman - just replyin general not you specifically).

Guess you missed the spot where I compared how Newman performed with and without a apss rush.

It's a long thread.

[InmanRoshi]

:lmao2: :lmao2: I love it.............The game in which Terence Newman shut down the best WR in the league (causing his combustion), I hope we somehow don't forget to mention that a certain No.94 had set up shop in the Panthers backfield....

And I hope that we somehow dont forget that Delhomme still passed for 260 yards in that game even with Ware camped in his backfield. The Panthers were completing passes ... just not on Newman's man.

I guess the reason why Steve Smith led the NFL in virtually every receiving category last year is because he only faced one team all year that got to Delhomme for 3 sacks

[Fla Cowpoke]

Hey Charles, how often do you think Barber has been helped by Simeon Rice being in the backfield all the time? Those 8 years of double digit sacks might just be of benefit to a corner, don't you think?

[Alexander]

How many years has he played? I don't think we can use anything but the three years he has been in the league.

Big Ben must be considered among the top QB's in the league. His winning record supports that. Hall of Fame? Well, I think he needs a few more years.

I am not ready to put Newman in the Hall of Fame and I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

Would you call Roethlisburger among the top three QBs in the league?

[Fla Cowpoke]

And I hope that we somehow dont forget that Delhomme still passed for 260 yards in that game even with 94 camped in his backfield.

The Panthers were completing passes ... just not on Newman's man.

:hammer:

[wileedog]

Certainity not.............I agree, but calling him the Best Cover Corner last year is pure homerism.

I think it was Dan Pompei of TSN who ranked out all the CBs at the end of the season.

By his projections T-New graded out as the best pure coverage corner in the league. Other CBs were ranked higher overall because of better run support, etc, but on pure coverage ability Newman was ranked #1.

So when did he mysteriously become a Cowboys Homer?

[Alexander]

I think it was Dan Pompei of TSN who ranked out all the CBs at the end of the season.

By his projections T-New graded out as the best pure coverage corner in the league. Other CBs were ranked higher overall because of better run support, etc, but on pure coverage ability Newman was ranked #1.

So when did he mysteriously become a Cowboys Homer?

Conversely, when did his opinion mysteriously become something that is relevant?

Oh wait, when he ranks Newman the best and I agree with it. That's right.

[InmanRoshi]

Certainly not.............I agree, but calling him the Best Cover Corner last year is pure homerism.

and, of course, there is the other end of the spectrum which is equally as ridiculous and filled with hyperbole.

[InmanRoshi]

Conversely, when did his opinion mysteriously become something that is relevant?

Oh wait, when he ranks Newman the best and I agree with it. That's right.

And when there an an encompassing body of evidence to support it.

Dismiss it all you want, but its more convincing than than annecdotal word of mouth.

[wileedog]

Conversely, when did his opinion mysteriously become something that is relevant?

Oh wait, when he ranks Newman the best and I agree with it. That's right.

Charles' point is that only a homer would rank Newman as the best cover corner.

Dan Pompei ranked Newman as the best cover corner.

So either:

A) Charles is wrong, and the opinion has some validity or
B) Pompei is a Cowboys Homer.

My point is not that Newman was the best cover corner because Pompei said so.

My point is that having the opinion that Newman was the best coverage corner in the league last year is shared by someone who has nothing to do with the Cowboys. Thus blind accusations of homerism tend to lose a little of their weight.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Ben has only played two years.

But he has been in the top 5 in passer rating both of those years. He and Manning are the only two that have been there.

That being said, I don't know that he is a top 3. Maybe top 5 - 6. The numbers support it. He has been amazingly clutch. If I had to take a QB to start a franchise with he would be in the mix. Just not my first two or three choices.

[Alexander]

Charles' point is that only a homer would rank Newman as the best cover corner.

Dan Pompei ranked Newman as the best cover corner.

So either:

A) Charles is wrong, and the opinion has some validity or
B) Pompei is a Cowboys Homer.

My point is not that Newman was the best cover corner because Pompei said so.

My point is that having the opinion that Newman was the best coverage corner in the league last year is shared by someone who has nothing to do with the Cowboys. Thus blind accusations of homerism tend to lose a little of their weight.

I also think we are talking about two different things.

I think he had one of the top five performances of any corner LAST YEAR.

That is what Pompei is ranking. And you could make a case with it being the best, statistically, if you believe in that gibberish.

But I am referring to those who suggest, right now, Newman is the best in the league. I would wait for consistent production to make that kind of statement. I don't see that as unreasonable in the least.

[Charles]

And I hope that we somehow dont forget that Delhomme still passed for 260 yards in that game even with Ware camped in his backfield.
So what are you insinuating. Newman's performance was better that Ware's because even though Ware took over a game defensively (something Newman has never done in his career) Delhomme still passed for 260 yards.

I hope not.........


The Panthers were completing passes ... just not on Newman's man.
..........because if we really get into that 260 yard pasing performance you'll come up with 2 big plays, less than 50% completion percentage and you'd also realize that the Panthers coaching staff had to attack our secondary due to Anthony Henry's absence. They went after the weak links in the secondary.

Why would they throw at Newman going against a lesser WR (Smith ejected) when they could have favorable match-up against lesser CBs.

Don't get me wrong........Newman had a very good year, but have we got the production in line with a CB selected with the 5th overall pick .....not yet.

[wileedog]

I also think we are talking about two different things.

I think he had one of the top five performances of any corner LAST YEAR.




This is the quote I specifically responded to:

Certainly not.............I agree, but calling him the Best Cover Corner last year is pure homerism.

Yes, I am only talking about last year, as was Pompei.

And I've already said I think its too early to declare Newman one of the best in the league. But I strongly believe we could be saying it next January.

[Charles]

Conversely, when did his opinion mysteriously become something that is relevant?

Oh wait, when he ranks Newman the best and I agree with it. That's right.:lmao2: :lmao:
Homerism 101 great post

[Vintage]

I also think we are talking about two different things.

I think he had one of the top five performances of any corner LAST YEAR.

That is what Pompei is ranking. And you could make a case with it being the best, statistically, if you believe in that gibberish.

But I am referring to those who suggest, right now, Newman is the best in the league. I would wait for consistent production to make that kind of statement. I don't see that as unreasonable in the least.

Which is what I said above....

And what I agree with wholeheatedly...

Newman played like a top tier corner last year.

Let's see him string it together with another season like that before we consider him the league's best (or whatever else you want too).

But let me say this...I think its going to be near impossible for Newman to follow up this season with an equal or better season.

Not bec. he doesn't have the talent...he does....its just hard not to give up any TD's for back to back seasons.

There might be a bit of a dropoff...

[ravidubey]

No, I feel like I'm fighting against a bunch of homers who have bought into the hype that gets shoveled for this team.


Ah the homer insult. Perfect for those who have no basis for argument, yet wish to sound smart and cool.


I dont care if you, or anyone else, agrees with me, but when people start calling Newman the best corner in football, or Drew Bledsoe a top 5 QB, or Kyle Kosier an upgrade over maybe the greatest lineman to ever live, I feel obligated to say something. This board is turning into Extremeskins, what with the blue and silver glasses that everyone seems to be sporting.


This is the kind of crap that makes me hate the written word. Who said Newman was the best corner in football? I remember posting that he was the best cover guy out there. His problem is his ratio of passes defended vs. passes intercepted is very high-- though he may have more passes defended than jsut about anyone he doesn't make QB's pay for throwing at him.

There's no such thing as a "top 5" anymore when it comes to QB's. There's Brady all by his lonesome, then a 1000 feet below him there's Manning, then miles below lives everyone else.


Roethlisburger makes plays with an excellent supporting cast but is a pedestrian passer at this point in his career. Bledsoe is an excellent passer but fails to make plays without a supporting cast. Hasselbeck is efficient but lacks any kind of killer instinct. McNabb makes plays with his arm and feet but gets flustered too easily and loses accuracy in big games.

As for Kosier being an upgrade- there's no question that over the next five years Kyle Kosier will be better than Larry Allen will be and at a fraction of the cost. The past means nothing when building a team for 2006. You're turning the signing of Kosier and fans' approval of Newman and Bledsoe into an excuse for an anti-homer soapbox stand. Total BS and unwillingness to read posts.

[Vintage]

Charles, I disagree with the "#5 pick" comment...

As a rookie, Newman played as well as you could hope for. Pro Bowl Alternative. Repeatedly left on an island....etc. Certainly worth the billing his rookie year.

2004- I agree, he didn't play like a #5 selection.

2005- He played like the #5 selection. His finest year in the league IMO. Certainly worth the billing.

[Fla Cowpoke]

I don't think anyone has said that Newman is the best corner. Closest is ravidbuey saying he was the best cover corner last year. By the numbers, it is hard to argue that.

But being the best cover corner doesn't necessarily make you the best corner period.

We need to know what the rules are. if you go by numbers, Newman is right there. If you go by what you see, maybe someone else is better.

[wileedog]

Which is what I said above....

And what I agree with wholeheatedly...

Newman played like a top tier corner last year.

Let's see him string it together with another season like that before we consider him the league's best (or whatever else you want too).

But let me say this...I think its going to be near impossible for Newman to follow up this season with an equal or better season.

Not bec. he doesn't have the talent...he does....its just hard not to give up any TD's for back to back seasons.

There might be a bit of a dropoff...

Newman's problem is lack of picks. He hasn't had more than 4 in a season, and like DE's are judged by sacks CBs tend to be judged by picks.

He could literally give up 6 or 7 TDs this year, but if he gets 8 or 9 INTs to go with it he will actually get twice the media attention that he got this year. If he returns 2 of them for TDs he will be a lock for the Pro Bowl, even if he technically has an inferior season.

[Alexander]

I don't think anyone has said that Newman is the best corner.

Oh, I bet I could find a few.

[Fla Cowpoke]

First, I have to question anyone that would put Daniel Craig as James Bond in his avatar. Any self respecting Bond fan just wouldn't do that.

So what are you insinuating

He isn't insinuating anything. He stated clearly that despite the fact that Delhomme passed for 260 yds it wasn't against Newman's man. And Smith wasn't booted until the second half if I remember correctly, so your post is bubkis.

For the 2005 season, Newman was among the best corners in the league. can we all agree on that?

For the three year period from 2003-2005, I think he might be in the top 10, certainly top 15.

[Vintage]

Newman's problem is lack of picks. He hasn't had more than 4 in a season, and like DE's are judged by sacks CBs tend to be judged by picks.

He could literally give up 6 or 7 TDs this year, but if he gets 8 or 9 INTs to go with it he will actually get twice the media attention that he got this year. If he returns 2 of them for TDs he will be a lock for the Pro Bowl, even if he technically has an inferior season.

I know...

But I don't care.

I'd rather Newman have the same exact season he just had than to get 6 picks, return 2 for TD's, and give up 6 TD's and make the Pro Bowl.

The Pro Bowl doesn't help us win games.

Production does.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Oh, I bet I could find a few.


Are you talking this thread? Or elsewhere? Because the only best comment was that he was the best "cover corner" last year. Because there are other tasks that corners are asked to do, that wouldn't necessarily make him the best corner.

[wileedog]

I know...

But I don't care.

I'd rather Newman have the same exact season he just had than to get 6 picks, return 2 for TD's, and give up 6 TD's and make the Pro Bowl.

The Pro Bowl doesn't help us win games.

Production does.

Oh I agree wholeheartedly. Just pointing out why he hasn't gotten the media attention that other CBs get, and why he might not get the ranking he deserves when compared to other CBs by the 'experts'.

I'll take 2005 T-New for the rest of his career and be darned happy about it.

[Alexander]

Are you talking this thread? Or elsewhere? Because the only best comment was that he was the best "cover corner" last year. Because there are other tasks that corners are asked to do, that wouldn't necessarily make him the best corner.

Elsewhere.

[Charles]

This is the quote I specifically responded to:



Yes, I am only talking about last year, as was Pompei.

And I've already said I think its too early to declare Newman one of the best in the league. But I strongly believe we could be saying it next January.
I get it........ after the season was over, CNNSI, Dan Pompei and a couple of Dallas fans came to the conclusion that Newman was the best cover corner in the league:lmao2:

But during the season only two player got those type of accolades from the Head Coach. Anthony Henry and Demarcus Ware.

For a couple of games Parcells stated that Henry was the best defensive player on the team. I fail to see how Newman can be playing like the best cover corner in the League and not get similar accolades.

The best cover corner cannot go unnoticed for an entire season, then mysteriously CNNSI and Pompei crunch some stats and voila Newman is the best:lmao: and the fans devour the fish wraps.

Newman had a very good year PERIOD!!!!

[Fla Cowpoke]

Is there any corner that you would trade him for straight up? Consider age and what they are asked to do in their given defense. For most people, I doubt there is more than 1-2 guys that they would take as a corner in our defense.

[Charles]

Charles, I disagree with the "#5 pick" comment...

As a rookie, Newman played as well as you could hope for. Pro Bowl Alternative. Repeatedly left on an island....etc. Certainly worth the billing his rookie year.

2004- I agree, he didn't play like a #5 selection.

2005- He played like the #5 selection. His finest year in the league IMO. Certainly worth the billing.
Thats cool, we can agree to disagree.

IMHO Newman hasn't been a game changer ala Roy Williams. He hasn't had a signature game, thats a shame considering he was also supposed to be a punt return phenom.

[wileedog]

I get it........ after the season was over, CNNSI, Dan Pompei and a couple of Dallas fans came to the conclusion that Newman was the best cover corner in the league:lmao2:

But during the season only two player got those type of accolades from the Head Coach. Anthony Henry and Demarcus Ware.

For a couple of games Parcells stated that Henry was the best defensive player on the team. I fail to see how Newman can be playing like the best cover corner in the League and not get similar accolades.

The best cover corner cannot go unnoticed for an entire season, then mysteriously CNNSI and Pompei crunch some stats and voila Newman is the best:lmao: and the fans devour the fish wraps.

Newman had a very good year PERIOD!!!!

I see you are going with option A) Dan Pompei is a Cowboys Homer.

Be sure to shoot him an e-mail and let him know he needs to stop being so biased towards our players.

And give me a break with Parcells. How many guys has he praised up and down on this team a week before he cut them?

[Fla Cowpoke]

Henry is not a "cover corner" in the same sense of the word as Newman. Henry is physical and can match up with bigger guys. But Henry did answer the challenge. When teams avoided Newman, Henry did make them pay at times. But he also got lit up like a Christmas tree against Lloyd and SF. Or are you forgetting that? Maybe you will accept the tired legs argument.

And during the season, I don't think Ware ever got those accolades as a corner. LOL. But seriously, most of the time Parcells downplayed what Ware did and constantly said he had to improve.

I think if you took one player on the team and evaluated how well he played his position throughout the year, there would be no contest as to who it was.

[Fla Cowpoke]

I hate to help his argument, but Pompeii is the one that picked Dallas to go to the Super Bowl in 2004. He is the one responsible for the jinx.

[Vintage]

Thats cool, we can agree to disagree.

IMHO Newman hasn't been a game changer ala Roy Williams. He hasn't had a signature game, thats a shame considering he was also supposed to be a punt return phenom.

Now, if you want to argue about game changing (i.e., interceptions), then you have something.

But what more could you have realistically asked for from a rookie corner than what Newman gave us?

2004, I conceded, he didn't play like a number 5 overall draft pick...

But last year, he did by playing excellent coverage.

Maybe he didn't have the flashes of game changing plays...but he did not give up game changing plays either. He covered his guy, defensed passes, and prevented conversions.

[Charles]

Is there any corner that you would trade him for straight up? Consider age and what they are asked to do in their given defense. For most people, I doubt there is more than 1-2 guys that they would take as a corner in our defense.
If it were my decision, I'd only trade Newman for a proven elite veteran with the hopes that my trade partner buys into Newman's potential.

I'd take Champ Bailey or Chris McAlister

[InmanRoshi]

Thats cool, we can agree to disagree.

IMHO Newman hasn't been a game changer ala Roy Williams. He hasn't had a signature game, thats a shame considering he was also supposed to be a punt return phenom.

Cover corners are typically underappreciated by fans who need highlight films to notice a player (but not by general managers, which is why they are among the highest paid players in the league). Which is why you see the position ridiculously under-represented among Top 50 player lists.

But without the cover CB's allowing other "game changers" who get to freelance and roam to make plays typically disappear.

Which is why Roy Williams turned in Tony Dixon numbers when he had to play Cover 2 in 2004.

[Charles]

I see you are going with option A) Dan Pompei is a Cowboys Homer.

Be sure to shoot him an e-mail and let him know he needs to stop being so biased towards our players.
No he's not a homer. He's just doing his job.........compile information on a piece of paper and sell it to willing fans.......:)

And give me a break with Parcells. How many guys has he praised up and down on this team a week before he cut them?:lmao2:
How many of those guys he's praised then subsequently cut have at one time ever been considered the best player on their respective units.:rolleyes:

[Fla Cowpoke]

IMHO Newman hasn't been a game changer ala Roy Williams. He hasn't had a signature game, thats a shame considering he was also supposed to be a punt return phenom.


He did have a three int game as a rookie...that would probably qualify as a signature game.

Parcells has been reluctant to use him as punt returner because we can't replace him as corner.

[InmanRoshi]

When people are still list Chris McAllister as an elite CB, it becomes obvious they pretty much don't know what in the world they are talking about. Its well known by people that closely follow the NFL that he mailed it in since he got his big contract two years ago. Ask any Raven fan. He was vastly inferior to Samari Rolle last year.

[Fla Cowpoke]

I agree Inman....said as much early on in the corner discussion. McAlister isn't half the corner he once was.

[Charles]

Cover corners are typically underappreciated by fans who need highlight films to notice a player (but not by general managers, which is why they are among the highest paid players in the league). Which is why you see the position ridiculously under-represented among Top 50 player lists.
That is great stuff, hopefully Anthony Henry can teach Newman a thing or two about how to play like the best player on the defense.

But without the cover CB's allowing other "game changers" who get to freelance and roam to make plays typically disappear.
Roy Williams made the Pro Bowl regardless of Newman's play, but ironically Newman's ability that make players like Roy William game changers doesn't get noticed until we crunch stats.

Which is why Roy Williams turned in Tony Dixon numbers when he had to play Cover 2 in 2004.

That is why NFL players don't need numbers to know that Roy Williams is a Pro Bowler and a talent in any system.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Some interesting stats on Newman and McAlister:

Tackles (2003,2004, 2005)
Newman: 76, 68, 59
McAlister: 43, 42, 48

Passes Defensed:
Newman: 17, 11, 14
McAlister: 11, 8, 12

Interceptions:
Newman: 4, 4, 3
McAlister: 3, 1, 1

McAlister does have 2 TD's over that time period to none for Newman. Newman has 2 sacks to none for McAlister.

In general, Newman's numbers are better at every stat.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Charles, which is it?

I am pretty sure you argued earlier about some of the other premier corners that their numbers weren't as good because no one threw at them.

Now that we see that Henry made plays because teams threw at him but Newman gets no credit. Make up your mind.

Charles, if you aren't smart enough to realize that Williams' big plays are directly related to his ability to play close to the line, then you aren't smart enough to understand much of what has been said in this thread.

[InmanRoshi]

Some interesting stats on Newman and McAlister:

Tackles (2003,2004, 2005)
Newman: 76, 68, 59
McAlister: 43, 42, 48

Passes Defensed:
Newman: 17, 11, 14
McAlister: 11, 8, 12

Interceptions:
Newman: 4, 4, 3
McAlister: 3, 1, 1

McAlister does have 2 TD's over that time period to none for Newman. Newman has 2 sacks to none for McAlister.

In general, Newman's numbers are better at every stat.

But I hear Chris McAllister's name thrown out more ... therefore, he has to be better. Annecdotal evidence and word of mouth ... its infallible.

[wileedog]

No he's not a homer. He's just doing his job.........compile information on a piece of paper and sell it to willing fans.......:)

At least he bothered to compile information on a piece of paper. You seem to be going on a lot less.

A neutral observer is saying the same thing that a lot of folks here are - T-New was arguably the best pure coverage corner in the league. Coupled with undeniable stats there is now evidence that perhaps this was so.

In your defense, you have presented the "lol at the homers" argument, a slightly more biting yet no more clever argument than "because I said so."

How many of those guys he's praised then subsequently cut have at one time ever been considered the best player on their respective units.:rolleyes:

Again, you miss the point. Parcells rarely talks straight about his players to the media. I would venture to guess that 99% of what he tells the media about a player is what he thinks that player needs to hear - not an accurate assessment of his evaluation.

Saying "Parcells didn't say Newman was a great cover corner" is not an argument. I don't remember Parcells ever pointing out that the sky is blue either, and yet I bet even you would probably concur that on a sunny day, it usually is.

[Charles]

When people are still list Chris McAllister as an elite CB, it becomes obvious they pretty much don't know what in the world they are talking about. Its well known by people that closely follow the NFL that he mailed it in since he got his big contract two years ago. Ask any Raven fan. He was vastly inferior to Samari Rolle last year.
Yep, I don't know what I am talking about.

McAlister got his big contract 2 years ago and thanked the Ravens organization with a another ProBowl year in 2004.

Last year he was injured. Infact the entire Ravens secondary was decimated.

Is it also well known by people who follow the NFL that Newman was the best cover corner in the league in 2005:lmao2:

[dwmyers]

who is feeding all of you with this BS about Newman being ... "the best cover man in football" in 2005.

Dr Z, Paul Zimmerman, said so after his tape analysis of players in 2005. He rated Newman as the best cover corner in football last year.

David.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Dr Z, Paul Zimmerman, said so after his tape analysis of players in 2005. He rated Newman as the best cover corner in football last year.


Another known Cowboys homer.

[Charles]

Some interesting stats on Newman and McAlister:

Tackles (2003,2004, 2005)
Newman: 76, 68, 59
McAlister: 43, 42, 48

Passes Defensed:
Newman: 17, 11, 14
McAlister: 11, 8, 12

Interceptions:
Newman: 4, 4, 3
McAlister: 3, 1, 1

McAlister does have 2 TD's over that time period to none for Newman. Newman has 2 sacks to none for McAlister.

In general, Newman's numbers are better at every stat.
Thanks for proving my point:lmao2: Stat pusher:lmao2:

Peyton Manning is statically better than any QB in the league. so what:lmao2: Manning a great passer, but Brady is a better QB.


McAlister made the ProBowl in 2004 with lesser stats than Newman, why didn't he get a nod, coincidentally 2004 has been Newman's worst year

[dwmyers]

I don't think anyone has said that Newman is the best corner. Closest is ravidbuey saying he was the best cover corner last year.

The FIRST person I saw make that claim was a certain old dog liberal and Jets homer by the name of Paul Zimmerman.

And it wasn't by crunching numbers, he did it with tape analysis. You know, taping games and watching people play.

Not that he was ever in the NFL, but an ex semi pro player and lineman for Columbia I think isn't a bad place to begin.

David.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Charles....no reply to the fact that Newman's numbers have been better every year that he has been in the league compared to McAlister.

I really wish Adam would jump in at some point with the numbers of how often each was thrown at and how many were completed against them.

Since you have now replied...I'll edit.

Numbers are just one part of the argument. What is your argument? Because McAlister went to the Pro Bowl? Larry Allen has went to how many Pro Bowls that he didn't deserve? Hell, he went in the 10-6 year that he kept falling down and walking off the field. McAlister used to be one of the best. Now he has dropped quite a bit.

You are making a lot of excuses for McAlister's failure. Injuries. Defense was decimated. Blah, blah, blah...but you don't want to consider that in Newman's "worst" statistical year Dallas had no pass rush, used about 4 corners on the other side, and had no FS.

Talk about using "homer" excuses for the guy you like.

[Vintage]

On an unrelated note: Newman turns 28 this year.

How many more years do you think he has in him?

[Future]

Until midway through last season, I and any sane Dallas fan would have traded Newman for Hall without thinking twice. Now, Newman has improved quit a bit, and is an elite cover corner, but in no way is he a far better player than Hall. Both are greats corners.

i beg to differ...i for one was never particularly a deangelo hall fan

[superpunk]

I think most fans, when forming an opinion - go on what they see first, if possible.

Most of us fans "saw" that Newman played pretty darn well last year.

So then - we look for outsider info - stats, opinions - to figure out if we're right in what we saw.

We find in fact that several respected journalists rated him extremely high.

What you all should know is, that when talking with Charles and HH, if these stats/opinions contradict THEIR opinion - they were either

a. Compiled wrong
b. misleading
c. compiled by an idiot
d. only viewed as relevant by us because they say something good about the Cowboys.

When in fact, we already formed our own opinion based on, you know, watching the games. We just wanted to find out whether or not our opinions were garbage or not.

They're not. And noone would be able to find any disparaging article about Newman last year. He was great, end of story.

[dwmyers]

Another known Cowboys homer.

<sarcasm>Yea, because ex beat writers for the JETS who went to school in COLUMBIA are such Cowboys homers.</sarcasm>

If he favors any team in the NFC East, it's probably the Giants, but not by much.

David.

[Fla Cowpoke]

Also, didn't Deion make a Pro Bowl or two after he became "ol one toe"?

[Fla Cowpoke]

Superpunk, I haven't been on the board long enough to witness what you reported about Charles and HH. Duly noted.

Dwmyers...I am sorry, but I should have clarified. I was being sarcastic about the Zimmerman thing. He is anything but a Cowboys homer.

[BigDFan5]

No he's not a homer. He's just doing his job.........compile information on a piece of paper and sell it to willing fans.......:)


So did he just make things up? Last year what other CB gave up just over 300 yards and 0 TDs all season long? Who was better?

[superpunk]

lol Cowpoke - you've been a member longer than me! Look for any incredibly long thread. There's a good chance Charles or HH is in there defending some ill-concieved notion, with little factual evidence.

Although I like Charles more and more, sometimes he has some crazy stances.

Someone's gotta mix it up, right?

[Fla Cowpoke]

Last post on this for now....gotta go home. It has been one very productive day at work. LOL.

Newman is only one year younger than McAlister and Bailey. But I think if you compare them, Newman still seems to be on the rise, while the other two are either holding or on the decline.

[Charles]

Charles, which is it?

I am pretty sure you argued earlier about some of the other premier corners that their numbers weren't as good because no one threw at them.
No I didn't..........so your pretty wrong

Now that we see that Henry made plays because teams threw at him but Newman gets no credit. Make up your mind.
Make up my mind about what. You are going to pigeon hole me into making a ridiculous choice.

Are you assuming that teams only threw or mostly threw at Henry because Newman had covered his guy?:laugh1:

Who compiled those stats?

Did they know every Cowboy defense and each players on fields role/responsibility within the play called. Are they 100% sure everytime Newman had his man covered they threw at Henry.

Was Newman always in man to man or did he do his job of covering his man on specific patterns or routes while knowing his teammates are going to help on other routes/patterns by the WR within a play.

This is a ridiculous question.

Charles, if you aren't smart enough to realize that Williams' big plays are directly related to his ability to play close to the line, then you aren't smart enough to understand much of what has been said in this thread.
Roy Williams has made just as many plays away from the scrimmage. His strenghts are closer to the Line of scrimmage, but also remember Roy running stride for stride with Jimmy Smith and making an INT and the Eagles game last year comes to mind.

There are alotof factors that assist Roy Williams in making him the player he is, pinpointing Newman inorder to justify the best cover corner moniker reeks of homerism,

[Fla Cowpoke]

Yeah SP, what would the boards be without different opinions.

I have been a member here for a while but my posting has been very moderate here. On the Ranch Report I have well over 10000 posts in just a little longer period of time.

Generally it is more civil here, but I still enjoy the sheer stupidity over there on occasion.

The threads here in general have more meat to them...

[Fla Cowpoke]

Ok Charles...your quote was that Carolina didn't throw at him because Smith was out of the game and Henry was out.

The implication is that Henry gets more chances, or at least the other side of the field does because Newman is better.

As for the stats, I acknowledge some things are going to be different because of the type of defense you play. But when the numbers favor Newman across the board, I don't know how you can argue it.

Do you really think that Roy Williams is better in coverage than he is up at the line of scrimmage? Wow? Just wow. I don't think I have ever seen anyone suggest that before.

The interception against the Eagles? A great play? Well, it sure as hell made me happy. But Mcnabb threw it right to him without a receiver in sight. Roy was in the wrong place at the right time.

[Alexander]

The interception against the Eagles? A great play? Well, it sure as hell made me happy. But Mcnabb threw it right to him without a receiver in sight. Roy was in the wrong place at the right time.

Uh oh.

Now you have done it.

You have the nerve to suggest that Roy Williams didn't make that incredibly difficult interception?

Be prepared to get buried, my friend.

[Bob Sacamano]

Newman was coming off a terrible, awful, God foresaken season in which he was burned right and left. Hall was the clear cut better player going into last season. Newman improved and reached Hall's level, but DeAngelo has been more consistant over their young careers.

ridiculous, Hall was a rookie going into his 2nd year last year, remember how great Nemwan looked his rookie year, and then how he did in his 2nd? what level was HAll at in '04?

[Bob Sacamano]

Kosier may turn out to be good, but no one can honestly argue that he is better than Allen.

I can, Kosier is quick and can reach the 2nd level...BETTER!

[Bob Sacamano]

Who is saying Allen is worse? The general consensus is that Kosier is a better fit. Nobody is saying he is "better".

I am :eek:

[Bob Sacamano]

I dont care if you, or anyone else, agrees with me, but when people start calling Newman the best corner in football, or Drew Bledsoe a top 5 QB, or Kyle Kosier an upgrade over maybe the greatest lineman to ever live, I feel obligated to say something. This board is turning into Extremeskins, what with the blue and silver glasses that everyone seems to be sporting.


I guess Gil Brandt is a fire-breathing, Dallas Cowboy homer too, he only named Newman 1st on his All-Pro list

[Bob Sacamano]

No.

But there's definitely an "Ormon" in this thread....

you mean a Armoon?

[Bob Sacamano]

wow :hammer:. If Newman has been better than Hall why hasn't been hyped by the media.

guess we know how far your football knowledge goes then, if there was any doubt before

[Charles]

Ok Charles...your quote was that Carolina didn't throw at him because Smith was out of the game and Henry was out.
Yep and the Carolina coaching staff didn't just stumble into the play-offs, they saw a weakness and attacked it.

The implication is that Henry gets more chances, or at least the other side of the field does because Newman is better.
Not necessarily. Defensive game plans vary from game to game. Henry could be getting more attention due to several factors, pinpointing Newman's ability to cover WR as the primary reason is ridiculous. That is what the Newman homers are trying to do.

The kid had a very good season. He got his confidence and swagger, but he wasn't called out as the best player on defense during any stretch of the season, pretty much proving the point that he couldn't (even arguably) have been the best cover corner in the league last year.

As for the stats, I acknowledge some things are going to be different because of the type of defense you play. But when the numbers favor Newman across the board, I don't know how you can argue it.
Sorry Fla Cowpoke. I live in the DC/MD/VA area. The local sportnetworks cover the Ravens aand Skins. McAlister is a better CB than Newman. They might be on different sides of the hill, but Newman hasn't reached the McAlister/Bailey level yet.

Do you really think that Roy Williams is better in coverage than he is up at the line of scrimmage? Wow? Just wow. I don't think I have ever seen anyone suggest that before.
I don't think he's better. I stated he's made just as many plays away from the scrimmage. Big difference.

The interception against the Eagles? A great play? Well, it sure as hell made me happy. But Mcnabb threw it right to him without a receiver in sight. Roy was in the wrong place at the right time.
McNabb threw a horrible pass. If he had put some air under the ball he might have connected with WR (I think Brown) who was running down the side line with Glenn covering (I think). McNabbn felt the pressure and threw a line drive pass.

Roy Williams read the play. He dropped back eyeing McNabb and Intercepted the pass. Williams wasn't lucky he read the play. Infact Bradie James read it perfectly too that is why he was able to escort Roy down the side line and destroy McNabb.

[wileedog]

The kid had a very good season. He got his confidence and swagger, but he wasn't called out as the best player on defense during any stretch of the season, pretty much proving the point that he couldn't (even arguably) have been the best cover corner in the league last year.
Your logic is appalling.

Sorry Fla Cowpoke. I live in the DC/MD/VA area. The local sportnetworks cover the Ravens aand Skins. McAlister is a better CB than Newman. They might be on different sides of the hill, but Newman hasn't reached the McAlister/Bailey level yet.
Ah, a variation of the "I told you so argument"

The "I live near Player X and the local media says Player X is better than Player Y." argument. That's a tough one.

[Bob Sacamano]

Certainly not.............I agree, but calling him the Best Cover Corner last year is pure homerism.

but put "last year" in the sentence, and Newman was, w/o a doubt, the best cover corner

[Bob Sacamano]

Oh wait, when he ranks Newman the best and I agree with it. That's right.

can you disagree with it? like show stats that prove otherwise?

[Charles]

The "I live near Player X and the local media says Player X is better than Player Y." argument. That's a tough one.
I didn't say the media said........thats what Newman Homers say:p:

I live in the area, so I get to watch the local games. McAlister was a bonafide Pro Bowler in 2004. In 2005 he had ankle, shoulder and hamstring injuries that nagged him throughout the season.

[Charles]

can you disagree with it? like show stats that prove otherwise?
another stat pusher:banghead: I give up!!!

later summerisfunner. I am not ignoring your post, I just have to leave. Later.

[burmafrd]

Newman alone among starting CB's did not give up a TD all season long. What more needs to be said?

[wileedog]

Newman alone among starting CB's did not give up a TD all season long. What more needs to be said?

Shh, no stats allowed.

And don't reference anyone else's opinion either, especially if they agree with you. Only homers do that.

[Bob Sacamano]

Thats cool, we can agree to disagree.

IMHO Newman hasn't been a game changer ala Roy Williams.

uh, I thought taking your opponent out of the game was changing it, guess it's just me

He hasn't had a signature game, thats a shame considering he was also supposed to be a punt return phenom.

I think shutting down Steve Smith, and getting him ejected in the process, arguably the best WR in football last year, qualifies as a signature game

[superpunk]

Sorry Fla Cowpoke. I live in the DC/MD/VA area. The local sportnetworks cover the Ravens aand Skins. McAlister is a better CB than Newman. They might be on different sides of the hill, but Newman hasn't reached the McAlister/Bailey level yet.

WOOT!!!! If the local sportscasters say it's so, it must be so!

Wait, I'm falling into Charles logic here.....

[Bob Sacamano]

Charles, if you aren't smart enough to realize that Williams' big plays are directly related to his ability to play close to the line, then you aren't smart enough to understand much of what has been said in this thread.

and conversely, if you weren't smart enough to realize that CHarles simply aint smart, then well...

;)

[superpunk]

another stat pusher

As opposed to....whatever it is you're using to back yourself up?

I'll go with the stat pushers, and my own two eyes.

Thank god for sunday ticket, otherwise I too might have to rely on the hype machine to determine which players are good.

[Fla Cowpoke]

BTW Superpunk, must say that I admire your av and sig. They are classic!

and conversely, if you weren't smart enough to realize that CHarles simply aint smart, then well...

Easy now, we are on the same side of this argument!

McAlister was a bonafide Pro Bowler in 2004. In 2005 he had ankle, shoulder and hamstring injuries that nagged him throughout the season.

Newman was a bonafide Pro Bowl alternate in 2003, his rookie season. In 2004, with a nagging knee injury all year, with no pass rush and no safety help, he still had a statistically better season than McAlister. In 2005, Newman easily had a Pro Bowl worthy year.

McAlister didn't. Blame injuries, a a collapse by his teammates, whatever you want to argue your point. But McAlister did not have the kind of year that Newman did in 2005.

[Bob Sacamano]

Easy now, we are on the same side of this argument!

the smiley, did you see the smiley?! hehe

[superpunk]

BTW Superpunk, must say that I admire your av and sig. They are classic!

Muchos gracias. Juke is the GOAT!!!

Newman was a bonafide Pro Bowl alternate in 2003, his rookie season. In 2004, with a nagging knee injury all year, with no pass rush and no safety help, he still had a statistically better season than McAlister. In 2005, Newman easily had a Pro Bowl worthy year.

McAlister didn't. Blame injuries, a a collapse by his teammates, whatever you want to argue your point. But McAlister did not have the kind of year that Newman did in 2005.

A pox on your pro-bowl alternates and your ridiculous stats.

Charles lives near Baltimore - therefore, McCallister totally OWNS.

Plus, he has one hell of a madden rating.:)

Wasn't this thread about Kosier? Sorry I hijacked it. (Oh yes, it was me....:)

[Bob Sacamano]

As opposed to....whatever it is you're using to back yourself up?

I'll go with the stat pushers, and my own two eyes.

exactly, I've noticed a funny trend, people who bring stats to back up their argument are ridiculed, what kind of world do we live in? that we're not safe to harbour our stats!! lol

[Fla Cowpoke]

Ok, back to Kosier.

While I don't think there is a Cowboy fan who wouldn't want a Larry Allen circa 1998 on this team, the truth is that the Larry Allen of the last few years was no comparison.

Dallas is currently in the process of transforming from a "big" offensive line to one that has big bookends but mobile interior lineman. Which Larry Allen no longer was.

Kyle Kosier fits what we are trying to do. And because he fits the system better, he is better for the future than hanging on to Larry Allen would be.

Very simple.

[Bob Sacamano]

Kyle Kosier fits what we are trying to do. And because he fits the system better, he is better for the future than hanging on to Larry Allen would be.

Very simple.

and think about it, when describing NFL players, you hear the phrase, "big and fast", incredibly strong is about the only thing LA is, while Kosier has been described as both big, and fast, and how far does going by on just strength get you in this league?

[Fla Cowpoke]

Actually, in his earlier days, Larry was very fast for his size. But the problems he had with his ankles and knees over the last few years have robbed him of his speed. I mean it was painful to watch him try to get out in front of the runners.

[Bob Sacamano]

Actually, in his earlier days, Larry was very fast for his size.

I'm quite aware, just speaking of LA of now