Do We Overrate Newman? [Archive] - Dallas Cowboys Forum

Vintage

06-07-2006, 04:09 PM

dougonthebench

06-07-2006, 04:10 PM

no,he hasn't been given his due yet.

Doomsday101

06-07-2006, 04:10 PM

TheHustler

06-07-2006, 04:10 PM

His numbers speak for him. No TDs allowed.

Yeagermeister

06-07-2006, 04:11 PM

He doesn't get the credit he deserves because he doesn't have high int numbers. I think Adam or someone broke it down last year that he only gave up 2 or 3 completions per game. In my book that purty darn good.

Alexander

06-07-2006, 04:12 PM

His numbers speak for him. No TDs allowed.

They spoke for him in 2004 also.

He needs to repeat last year before passing any kind of definitive statement, good or bad.

AbeBeta

06-07-2006, 04:14 PM

I think the low INT numbers (compared to say, Bailey) is one big issue.

The bigger issue is that TNew is pretty humble. If he thumped his chest and drew attention to himself every time he made a solid play, he'd get more credit.

ABQCOWBOY

06-07-2006, 04:15 PM

I think it's both.

We, as fans, do overrate him. The NFL, as a whole, underrates him. I think he's much better then what he's given credit for.

TheHustler

06-07-2006, 04:16 PM

They spoke for him in 2004 also.

He needs to repeat last year before passing any kind of definitive statement, good or bad.

Well, I can definitively say he was pretty damn good in 2005.

=P

:)

rojan

06-07-2006, 04:16 PM

BrAinPaiNt

06-07-2006, 04:16 PM

Yeagermeister

06-07-2006, 04:18 PM

daboys79

06-07-2006, 04:18 PM

His numbers speak for him. No TDs allowed.

No pro bowls either.

Vintage

06-07-2006, 04:18 PM

Damn, 10 replies, 61 views in 7 minutes...

dougonthebench

06-07-2006, 04:18 PM

He seems to be more of a humble guy than what Deion was or even recently like DeAngelo

or maybe a Parcells guy?

Alexander

06-07-2006, 04:18 PM

When did he say that Edwards was one of the best CBs in the game??

He said Mario Edwards had one of the better years back in 2003.

Sometimes it's important for us to distinguish between a good player having a great year and a simple great player. He never said Edwards was great. He just thought he had an outstanding year.

Vintage

06-07-2006, 04:19 PM

He said Mario Edwards had one of the better years back in 2003.

Sometimes it's important for us to distinguish between a good player having a great year and a simple great player. He never said Edwards was great. He just thought he had an outstanding year.

Ah.

I couldn't remember the exact details of it.

Gracias.

Doomsday101

06-07-2006, 04:20 PM

One other thing to consider of why I think he is underated.

He is just not as flashy or out there promoting himself like some of the other DBs are known for doing.

He seems to be more of a humble guy than what Deion was or even recently like DeAngelo (sp?)

Newman is very good, I don't think he is as good as Sanders. Deion scared QB's in his prime and when he got his hands on the ball he was a major threat to take it to the house. He was one of the very few who could bait a QB into throwing to what looked like a wideopen target and be able to cover the ground and make the pick. I think Deion was the best cover CB to play the game. JMO

Yeagermeister

06-07-2006, 04:20 PM

He said Mario Edwards had one of the better years back in 2003.

Sometimes it's important for us to distinguish between a good player having a great year and a simple great player. He never said Edwards was great. He just thought he had an outstanding year.
Mario was good until they started calling PI tighter then he became the new Kevin Smith :(

BrAinPaiNt

06-07-2006, 04:25 PM

Newman is very good, I don't think he is as good as Sanders. Deion scared QB's in his prime and when he got his hands on the ball he was a major threat to take it to the house. He was one of the very few who could bait a QB into throwing to what looked like a wideopen target and be able to cover the ground and make the pick. I think Deion was the best cover CB to play the game. JMO

No I am in no way saying he is that good.

But what I am saying is he is not flashy and acting a fool dancing and all of that on the field.

Heck even when deion was getting ready to field a return he was out looking like a fool dancing around with his arms in the air before the ball was even kicked.

InmanRoshi

06-07-2006, 04:25 PM

The only mainstream media person I've seen who's even attempted to calculate who the best CB is the way Adam or KC Joyner does is Dr. Z, and he had Newman rated the best in the CB NFL.

The CB is horribly evaluated by the media because there really isn't a stat out there that people can get their hands around to evaluate the position. INT's is a terrible evaluator, and I think people would be surprised at how few interceptions most pro bowl CB's have in a typical season if they bothered to do the research. So at the end of the day people go by word of mouth and notoriety .. .which is why you see the names Champ Bailey and Chris McAllister thrown around all the time.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 04:25 PM

Do We Overrate Newman?

Yes, and this thread is a testement to that

BrAinPaiNt

06-07-2006, 04:26 PM

Yes, and this thread is a testement to that

If there is a grain to be found anywhere, I think you will find a way to go against it.

:rolleyes:

Doomsday101

06-07-2006, 04:26 PM

No I am in no way saying he is that good.

But what I am saying is he is not flashy and acting a fool dancing and all of that on the field.

Heck even when deion was getting ready to field a return he was out looking like a fool dancing around with his arms in the air before the ball was even kicked.

I agree Deion was a showman as well and did bring attention to himself. Thing is when you do that you best be able to back it up and Deion did do that.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 04:29 PM

If there is a grain to be found anywhere, I think you will find a way to go against it.

:rolleyes:

Read past threads. I've always held that Newman was overrated on these boards. He's good, yes, but the minute Adam threw out that "he didnt give up a TD all year" stat, he was annointed the best coverage corner in football right there on the spot and no one has looked back sense.

I may seem to go against the grain because I am not the eternal optimist most of you. This team has flaws, some pretty major ones at that. Newman is a good corner, top 10 definately, but he is not an elite cover corner just yet.

Alexander

06-07-2006, 04:29 PM

So at the end of the day people go by word of mouth and notoriety.

I think this applies to many positions in the Pro Bowl. OL is another great example.

StylisticS

06-07-2006, 04:29 PM

People still think he is the weak link in our secondary. Those same people probably didn't watch more than 2 or 3 games last year. If anything, he is underrated. Let him continue to be too.

5Stars

06-07-2006, 04:30 PM

I agree Deion was a showman as well and did bring attention to himself. Thing is when you do that you best be able to back it up and Deion did do that.

Yes he did! There are alot of Cowboy fans that don't like Deion because of his antics...but, I'm not one of them. I actually enjoyed watching him make a fool of himself because he talks the talk, and backed it up...

He is definetely "Primetime"...

:star:

BrAinPaiNt

06-07-2006, 04:32 PM

Read past threads. I've always held that Newman was overrated on these boards. He's good, yes, but the minute Adam threw out that "he didnt give up a TD all year" stat, he was annointed the best coverage corner in football right there on the spot and no one has looked back sense.

I may seem to go against the grain because I am not the eternal optimist most of you. This team has flaws, some pretty major ones at that. Newman is a good corner, top 10 definately, but he is not an elite cover corner just yet.

You show me a CB that does not give a touchdown all year while being the number one starting CB on a team. And he doesn't get the press he does. Then without a doubt he is underated.

Now I know it is a bit of your game to act like a pain in the butt and argue for argues sake but to say he is overrated is silly.

Is he a Deion, No...but he was one of the best CBs in the league last year.

BrAinPaiNt

06-07-2006, 04:33 PM

I agree Deion was a showman as well and did bring attention to himself. Thing is when you do that you best be able to back it up and Deion did do that.

Yes I remember deciding not to play the game when moss came to town.

I remember him doing that stupid dance waiting to do a return as a redskin and promptly dropping the ball because he was to busy being a fool.

He was never the same after his injury, he no longer could back up the act, but it did not stop him from acting the same way.

Doomsday101

06-07-2006, 04:35 PM

Yes he did! There are alot of Cowboy fans that don't like Deion because of his antics...but, I'm not one of them. I actually enjoyed watching him make a fool of himself because he talks the talk, and backed it up...

He is definetely "Primetime"...

:star:

I'm not big into the antics but as long as your not costing the team 15 yarder by doing so I have no big problem with it. As for his skills I have seen a lot of CB over the years and as far as pure cover ability I don't think any one was better. Add to that his ability to return an int, punt or kickoff. Not to mention the reverse he ran against Philly in the playoffs one year, total amazement on that play.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 04:36 PM

You show me a CB that does not give a touchdown all year while being the number one starting CB on a team. And he doesn't get the press he does. Then without a doubt he is underated.

Now I know it is a bit of your game to act like a pain in the but and argue for argues sake but to say he is overrated is silly.

Is he a Deion, No...but he was one of the best CBs in the league last year.

Underrated nationally, yes, but that wasnt the question. The question was do WE, as a fanbase, overrate Newman. The answer to that is most certainly yes.

And what "game" is this you speak of? I've never argued for anything I didnt believe was true, not once. I'd appreciate not getting lumped in with Nors and his posts simply to incite people. I just dont care if anyone agrees with me or not. Big difference.

InmanRoshi

06-07-2006, 04:40 PM

As far as the "Terrence doesn't get enough interceptions to be a considered an elite CB"....

Career INT totals through their first 3 years in the league

Deion 14
Bailey 13
Newman 11
Charles Woodson 10
McAlister 10
Darrell Green 9
Law 9
Rod Woodson 8
Trufant 8
Barber 4

Looks like he holds up pretty well against some good company to me. But you would never know it listening to reputation and word of mouth, because no one bothers to actually look this stuff up (other than Adam). Which makes it all the more sad that CB's are evaluated solely by word of mouth and reputation.

CoCo

06-07-2006, 04:44 PM

As far as the "Terrence doesn't get enough interceptions to be a considered an elite CB"....

Career INT totals through their first 3 years in the league

Deion 14
Bailey 13
Newman 11
Charles Woodson 10
McAlister 10
Law 9
Rod Woodson 8
Trufant 8
Barber 4

Looks like he holds up pretty well against some good company to me. But you would never know it listening to word of mouth, because no one bothers to actually look this stuff up other than Adam.

Beautiful.

I love it when someone talks facts. :)

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 04:47 PM

As far as the "Terrence doesn't get enough interceptions to be a considered an elite CB"....

Career INT totals through their first 3 years in the league

Deion 14
Bailey 13
Newman 11
Charles Woodson 10
McAlister 10
Law 9
Rod Woodson 8
Trufant 8
Barber 4

Looks like he holds up pretty well against some good company to me. But you would never know it listening to reputation and word of mouth, because no one bothers to actually look this stuff up (other than Adam). Which makes it all the more sad that CB's are evaluated solely by word of mouth and reputation.

Again, you wont hear me talking badly of T-New or his INT totals. I'm just sayign he is not the best cover corner in football, not yet anyway.

BrAinPaiNt

06-07-2006, 04:48 PM

Underrated nationally, yes, but that wasnt the question. The question was do WE, as a fanbase, overrate Newman. The answer to that is most certainly yes.

And what "game" is this you speak of? I've never argued for anything I didnt believe was true, not once. I'd appreciate not getting lumped in with Nors and his posts simply to incite people. I just dont care if anyone agrees with me or not. Big difference.

Then don't act the way you do, and you won't get lumped in with people like nors.

Pretty simple.

Doomsday101

06-07-2006, 04:49 PM

Again, you wont hear me talking badly of T-New or his INT totals. I'm just sayign he is not the best cover corner in football, not yet anyway.

True however he has had to do this with not much of a pass rush since he has been with Dallas.

dougonthebench

06-07-2006, 04:50 PM

Again, you wont hear me talking badly of T-New or his INT totals. I'm just sayign he is not the best cover corner in football, not yet anyway.

how would we be without him?

InmanRoshi

06-07-2006, 04:50 PM

Again, you wont hear me talking badly of T-New or his INT totals. I'm just sayign he is not the best cover corner in football, not yet anyway.

But would you agree that general consenses, even on this board, is that Newman doesn't make many interceptions? I've seen it several times on this thread alone.

So, I would say to the original question: No .. we don't overrate Terrence Newman on this board. In fact, we criticize him for things that aren't even true.

Doomsday101

06-07-2006, 04:51 PM

how would we be without him?

I don't even want to think about that!!!

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 04:51 PM

Then don't act the way you do, and you won't get lumped in with people like nors.

Pretty simple.

Dont argue for what I believe? Ok :rolleyes:

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 04:52 PM

how would we be without him?

Worse, no doubt about it

BrAinPaiNt

06-07-2006, 04:53 PM

Dont argue for what I believe? Ok :rolleyes:

MANY people in here argue for what they believe in on this board, nowhere near the same amount get lumped into a class close to nors.

If you can't figure it out, that is on you.:cool:

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 04:53 PM

But would you agree that general consenses, even on this board, is that Newman doesn't make many interceptions? I've seen it several times on this thread alone.

So not only is he underrated on a national level, I would say he's underrated on this board considering there is very little truth in his main criticism.

I dont know about others, but that has never been my criticism of him. In 2004, his confidence seemed shattered and he was too worried about giving up the big play. He corrected that in 2005, but he still has a lot of room for improvement.

dougonthebench

06-07-2006, 04:54 PM

Worse, no doubt about it

then he just might be underrated.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 04:54 PM

MANY people in here argue for what they believe in on this board, nowhere near the same amount get lumped into a class close to nors.

If you can't figure it out, that is on you.:cool:

Many on here agree with the masses just so they dont get bashed for saying what they think.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 04:55 PM

then he just might be underrated.

And without Peyton Manning, the Colts are far worse off. Does that mean he is underrated? Terribly flawed logic :rolleyes:

31smackdown

06-07-2006, 04:56 PM

I really don't think he is overrated... I watched every game last year and he rarely gave up a catch that wasn't some short giveup route and he was a force in run support.. something most of these "cover corners" don't even come close to doing.

So no.. he's not overrated.. he's just that good. I don't recall any one game that he even had what you would term a bad day... like chad johnson going off on champ bailey..

redskins1

06-07-2006, 04:57 PM

my take,champ bailey didnt promote himself..or try to be fancy or anything..but he got alot of props...newman is a good corner,but yes he is overrated in cowboy land...he is good but not elite....

BrAinPaiNt

06-07-2006, 04:57 PM

Many on here agree with the masses just so they dont get bashed for saying what they think.

There are MANY people who argue a great deal, who argue about things that many may not agree with.

Difference is they do it in a respectable manner or in a manner that makes people think about what they say instead of just seeing a guy acting like a pain in the butt.

SultanOfSix

06-07-2006, 04:58 PM

dougonthebench

06-07-2006, 04:58 PM

And without Peyton Manning, the Colts are far worse off. Does that mean he is underrated? Terribly flawed logic :rolleyes:

this has nothing to do with Manning,just Newman.without Newman our Defense(secondary) would stink.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 04:59 PM

this has nothing to do with Manning,just Newman.without Newman our Defense(secondary) would stink.

I agree, however I still dont see how that equates to him being underrated when everyone already acknowledges this. It has nothing to do with Manning because that would destroy your point.

TheHustler

06-07-2006, 04:59 PM

Again, you wont hear me talking badly of T-New or his INT totals. I'm just sayign he is not the best cover corner in football, not yet anyway.

I don't think anyone here is.

Yakuza Rich

06-07-2006, 05:00 PM

I mean, outside of us (Dallas fans) no one really mentions him as a top tier corner.

Again, I understand the whole media/exposure angle that certain CBs have that Newman doesn't...

However, you would think somewhere, if he was really all that good, someone other than Dr. Z would have noticed.

The same Dr.Z who once listed Mario Edwards as one of the best CBs in the league.

Somewhere, someone (a fan, or a writer) would have to notice if Newman was as good as we say/think he is...

I am not implying Newman isn't good or anything of that sort....

I don't really buy the "someone other that Dr. Z would have noticed" as a factual statement. Announcers, analysts and experts are geared towards rating and they want to pump up the big names and the guys with the big numbers at all costs. Most of these types I generally find to be clueless when it comes to football. For example, every time I hear an announcer say "the safety is always supposed to play deeper than the deepest" I wonder if he has ever watched anything outside of high school football because NFL teams would just always send one WR deep and that would draw double or triple coverage and the offense would have a field day.

Dr. Z. on the other hand generally has a much better idea of how the game works and does a far better job of analyzing it. I wouldn't look for game analysis from guys like Pete Prisco, Peter King, or Sean Salisbury if I got paid to do. And Z was right, Mario Edwards was very good in 2002. Of course back then the illegal chuck and pass interference rules were laxed, so that that played to Edwards' advantage.

I've talked to KC Joyner and he generally agrees with me that Newman is at least Pro Bowl worthy. He didn't have his stats compiled, but he was considering Newman as one of his best CB's.

Despite being a Cowboys fan, I have no reason to overrate Newman. I'm not a friend, a family member or an agent. I like to study football and see how the parts work. If one of the parts works poorly and it's on my favorite machine, I want it replaced. If one of the parts works better than any other part you can find, it deserves the proper credit.

I've seen Newman dominate receivers and not give up 1 single TD in 2005. Outside of Deltha O'Neal, I can't say the same for every top flight CB in the league. If I'm overrating Newman, it's because that this is his first year of dominating in this fashion. But considering it's only his 3rd year in the league, I've got to believe this is just a sign of things to come.

Rich................

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:00 PM

Man, you like to throw out wild generalizations that have no basis in fact when it suits your point.

What "wild generalization" did I throw out? That people ragged on Newman until Adam brought up that stat?

SultanOfSix

06-07-2006, 05:01 PM

What "wild generalization" did I throw out? That people ragged on Newman until Adam brought up that stat?

Read the bolded part.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:01 PM

I don't think anyone here is.

:laugh1:

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:04 PM

Read the bolded part.

Are you arguing that Newman is not regarded by many on here as the best cover corner in football?

TEK2000

06-07-2006, 05:05 PM

Outstanding post YakuzaRich!!!

Chocolate Lab

06-07-2006, 05:06 PM

Looks like he holds up pretty well against some good company to me. But you would never know it listening to reputation and word of mouth, because no one bothers to actually look this stuff up (other than Adam). Which makes it all the more sad that CB's are evaluated solely by word of mouth and reputation.Exactly.

What's odd to me is that a lot of times, this rep gets started when a player is a very high draft pick. That's how Bailey (Hall, too) got his start as flashy name, because he was a top 10 pick. But Newman was even a higher draft pick than Bailey, and is almost a carbon copy of Champ physically -- except Newman has even gaudier track times. He also played some offense in college like Champ, and he played for a top-5 ranked program.

Yet for some reason, Newman didn't get any of the publicity that Bailey got. In fact, he's probably the least-known good corner in the game, and I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because Kansas State, even though a top program at the time, was a relatively anonymous school on the plains? Maybe because Parcells' hiring in 2003 got all the press? I'm not sure.

But like you say, you'd think that by now more national media people would actually have done some research and watched some game tape. I guess that's too much work for them.

SultanOfSix

06-07-2006, 05:07 PM

Are you arguing that Newman is not regarded by many on here as the best cover corner in football?

No, I'm pointing out your wild generalization, just like I said.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:08 PM

Are you arguing that Newman is not regarded by many on here as the best cover corner in football?

People say last year he was the best coverage corner in football, that is true, he was.

you took that as people saying he was the best CB in the NFL no doubt. You like to stretch what people actually say. Then stick your fingers in your ears and shout anytime someone tries to engage you in an intelligent manner.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:09 PM

No, I'm pointing out your wild generalization, just like I said.

Either you're saying that he isnt regarded by many as the best cover corner, or you arent and your "wild generalization" statement is baseless.

BrAinPaiNt

06-07-2006, 05:09 PM

People say last year he was the best coverage corner in football, that is true, he was.

you took that as people saying he was the best CB in the NFL no doubt. You like to stretch what people actually say. Then stick your fingers in your ears and shout anytime someone tries to engage you in an intelligent manner.

And turns around and does not want to be lumped in with the likes of nors.:laugh1:

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:10 PM

People say last year he was the best coverage corner in football, that is true, he was.

Well, I was going to use the search engine to bring up several pasts threads to prove the point, but BigD here just drove it home for me. Much thanks. :)

BTW, a free hint: No, he wasnt

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:12 PM

Well, I was going to use the search engine to bring up several pasts threads to prove the point, but BigD here just drove it home for me. Much thanks. :)

BTW, a free hint: No, he wasnt

OK then name 1 CB who while in coverage gave up a little over 300 yards and 0 TDs last year? Name 1 player who did better than that

AdamJT13

06-07-2006, 05:12 PM

He said Mario Edwards had one of the better years back in 2003.

My problem with Dr. Z's rankings is that he doesn't evaluate every game. He might see only five or six games and base his rankings on those games. That's why he rated Mario Edwards highly -- he just happened to miss Edwards' bad games that year. And that problem doesn't apply to him saying Newman was his highest-ranking cover corner last season, because Newman DIDN'T HAVE ANY bad games.

K.C. Joyner at least watches every game. I don't trust his judgement and accuracy as much as I would Dr. Z's, but at least it's a complete sample. It's the same with STATS Inc. They might not get all of the details right, but at least they're doing it for all 16 games.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:12 PM

And turns around and does not want to be lumped in with the likes of nors.:laugh1:

At least Nors was fun to laugh at HH is just sad.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:12 PM

People say last year he was the best coverage corner in football, that is true, he was.

you took that as people saying he was the best CB in the NFL no doubt. You like to stretch what people actually say. Then stick your fingers in your ears and shout anytime someone tries to engage you in an intelligent manner.

As for the rest of this post, find where I ever said, even once, Newman was thought of as the best corner in football on these boards? I said best "COVER CORNER", which you wourself just claimed.

So, we can chalk this post up as a straight up lie

Chocolate Lab

06-07-2006, 05:13 PM

HH, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but do you ever provide any evidence to back up your opinions? I'd like to hear who you considered better last year and, more importantly, why.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:13 PM

As for the rest of this post, find where I ever said, even once, Newman was thought of as the best corner in football on these boards? I said best "COVER CORNER", which you wourself just claimed.

So, we can chalk this post up as a straight up lie

Cover as in not giving up alot of yards and TD's? yeah name one who was better last year

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:14 PM

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:15 PM

OK then name 1 CB who while in coverage gave up a little over 300 yards and 0 TDs last year? Name 1 player who did better than that

I can't, and no one here can. Save Adam, whom I am not entirely convinced is not just making up these stats, as he dissapeared when i asked him to post a link. I would question the validity of a stat that claims he didnt give up 1 TD all year.

But, it probably is correct, and am not basing him not being the best on that validity or lack thereof.

SultanOfSix

06-07-2006, 05:16 PM

Either you're saying that he isnt regarded by many as the best cover corner, or you arent and your "wild generalization" statement is baseless.

Do you know what a "strawman" is HH? I don't think you do.

I suggest you look it up.

It is not up to me to show that he is regarded by many as the best cover corner. In fact, that was YOUR claim. The burden of proof is on you.

"he was annointed the best coverage corner in football right there on the spot and no one has looked back sense."

The above statement reaks of false generalization.

Q.E.D.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:17 PM

I can't, and no one here can. Save Adam, whom I am not entirely convinced is not just making up these stats, as he dissapeared when i asked him to post a link. I would question the validity of a stat that claims he didnt give up 1 TD all year.

But, it probably is correct, and am not basing him not being the best on that validity or lack thereof.

You can't well thats the most honest answer I have ever seen from you. As for the 0 TD's given up it was in an article the other day from Brandt (I believe) also

So if he can give up the fewest TD's and yards and not be the best what is the criteria you use for "cover" corner

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:17 PM

HH, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but do you ever provide any evidence to back up your opinions? I'd like to hear who you considered better last year and, more importantly, why.

Where is your evidence? Like I said, I have never seen these links that say newman gave up this or that.

As for who is better in my eyes, I'd still take Champ Bailey over Newman. Granted, he does give up big plays more often than Newman did last year, however he more than makes up for it with big plays. He is a gambler, moreso than Newman. When you have his skills, that is usually a good thing.

Ronde Barber is still the best coverage corner in football IMO, both as a zone and man defender. He is getting up there in age, though.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:18 PM

And turns around and does not want to be lumped in with the likes of nors.:laugh1:

I dont what you are giggling about, you just agreed with an outright lie

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:20 PM

Cover as in not giving up alot of yards and TD's? yeah name one who was better last year

So you freely admit your post WAS a lie? Just as long as we have that cleared up.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:21 PM

You can't well thats the most honest answer I have ever seen from you. As for the 0 TD's given up it was in an article the other day from Brandt (I believe) also

So if he can give up the fewest TD's and yards and not be the best what is the criteria you use for "cover" corner

Gil Brandt is not the individual whom I would be basing my player anylisis on.

BrAinPaiNt

06-07-2006, 05:21 PM

I dont what you are giggling about, you just agreed with an outright lie

I am "giggling" because you are acting just like I said you act.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:24 PM

So you freely admit your post WAS a lie? Just as long as we have that cleared up.

you are to obvious HH, trying to deflect the situation. When you out and out make **** up all the time :lmao:

Chocolate Lab

06-07-2006, 05:24 PM

So far today I've read from HH that Jimmy Johnson wasn't a defensive coach and Ronde Barber is the best man cover corner in football.

Oookay....

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:24 PM

Gil Brandt is not the individual whom I would be basing my player anylisis on.

So now Adam AND Brandt are BOTH lying about Newman giving up 0 TDs??

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:25 PM

you are to obvious HH, trying to deflect the situation. When you out and out make **** up all the time :lmao:

Again, as long as we have established that you lied to attempt to discredit me, I'm cool with you throwing out said lies.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:26 PM

So now Adam AND Brandt are BOTH lying about Newman giving up 0 TDs??

I never said Adam was lying, just that i want to see these numbers. I have giving him the benfit of the doubt and agreeing it is probably true.

As for Brandt, I shouldnt have to explain my doubt for him.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:27 PM

Again, as long as we have established that you lied to attempt to discredit me, I'm cool with you throwing out said lies.

Getting Sad, HH I don't need to lie to discredit you, your posts do plenty of that.

I have not lied at all, I did however type best CB instead of best cover CB, because I had already typed best "cover" CB in that post and figured we had established what we were talking about already. I figured you had the IQ to know wth we were typing about. I guess I was wrong

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:27 PM

So far today I've read from HH that Jimmy Johnson wasn't a defensive coach and Ronde Barber is the best man cover corner in football.

Oookay....

Well, Johnson was not a defensive oriented coach, you saying he was wont make it so.

As for Barber, why is it that you dont believe he is a great cover corner? Oh please use the excuse that he plays in a zone-oriented defense, please.....

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:28 PM

Getting Sad, HH I don't need to lie to discredit you

And yet, you did

Everlastingxxx

06-07-2006, 05:29 PM

I may seem to go against the grain because I am not the eternal optimist most of you. This team has flaws, some pretty major ones at that. Newman is a good corner, top 10 definately, but he is not an elite cover corner just yet.

You need help man. You have lost it.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:29 PM

I never said Adam was lying, just that i want to see these numbers. I have giving him the benfit of the doubt and agreeing it is probably true.

As for Brandt, I shouldnt have to explain my doubt for him.

You wanted proof, a national sportswriter said the same thing, Do you believe Adam called Brandt and told him to add it to the article? Is this all a conspiracy to pull one over on HH, or is it possible that he gave up 0 TDs last season as Adam said and Brandt independently confirmed?

So again Newman gace up 0 TDs and a little over 300 yards total last season. Who was better at "cover" CB than he was LAST season?

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:30 PM

you took that as people saying he was the best CB in the NFL no doubt. You like to stretch what people actually say. Then stick your fingers in your ears and shout anytime someone tries to engage you in an intelligent manner.

That is a lie, no ands, ifs, or buts about it. I never made such a claim, in fact I explicitly stated best cover corner, not best overall corner.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:30 PM

And yet, you did

and your IQ keeps dropping

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:31 PM

You wanted proof, a national sportswriter said the same thing, Do you believe Adam called Brandt and told him to add it to the article? Is this all a conspiracy to pull one over on HH, or is it possible that he gave up 0 TDs last season as Adam said and Brandt independently confirmed?

So again Newman gace up 0 TDs and a little over 300 yards total last season. Who was better at "cover" CB than he was LAST season?

Why are you arguing with yourself?

scottsp

06-07-2006, 05:31 PM

I love Newman and believe him to be one of the top young corners in the game. Dunno about the best, but whatever. As far as overrating him, I think any team's fan base is apt to do that with their own players.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:31 PM

That is a lie, no ands, ifs, or buts about it. I never made such a claim, in fact I explicitly stated best cover corner, not best overall corner.

Why did you cut out the part of the post that was right above that where I clearly established we were talking about cover corners? Sad sad sad

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:31 PM

and your IQ keeps dropping

My 152 IQ is not the basis of this discussion, it is your series of lies

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:32 PM

Why are you arguing with yourself?

Just waiting to get a real answer from you, who was a better cover corner last year than Newman? Who and WHY?

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:33 PM

My 152 IQ is not the basis of this discussion, it is your series of lies

Oh now its a series of lies? lmao 152 huh :laugh1:

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:33 PM

Why did you cut out the part of the post that was right above that where I clearly established we were talking about cover corners? Sad sad sad

WTH does that have to do with anything?

People say last year he was the best coverage corner in football, that is true, he was.

There, happy? That doesnt change anything, that is you stating that you believe he is the best cover corner in football, which proves my point that this board is overrating him.

Then, you went on to say that I called him the best corner in football, a lie. Stop dancing around the truth.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:35 PM

Oh now its a series of lies? lmao 152 huh :laugh1:

You wish to discredit that with a lie too, or will you concede that you dont know everything about me?

Believe it or not, I am fairly firm in my believe that I am not, in fact, an idiot. If you wish to believe so, well, I'll jsut have to live with that :rolleyes:

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:37 PM

WTH does that have to do with anything?

Lets see you call me a liar because I did not clarify "cover" corner in one sentence, even though I had established we were talking about cover CB's in the previous sentence and you wonder why you editing it out of your post has to do with anything? lmao 152 IQ indeed

There, happy? That doesnt change anything, that is you stating that you believe he is the best cover corner in football, which proves my point that this board is overrating him.

Then, you went on to say that I called him the best corner in football, a lie. Stop dancing around the truth.

I am still waiting on you to name who was better and PROVE it.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:38 PM

You wish to discredit that with a lie too, or will you concede that you dont know everything about me?

Believe it or not, I am fairly firm in my believe that I am not, in fact, an idiot. If you wish to believe so, well, I'll jsut have to live with that :rolleyes:

Well if it's true you arent very smart for a smart person.

Also where is the "series" of lies I am waiting or was that you lying?

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:38 PM

Just waiting to get a real answer from you, who was a better cover corner last year than Newman? Who and WHY?

I've already explained this. Whether or not Bailey is better in coverage is debateable, however he is a bigger defensive playmaker.

Ronde Barber is, IMO, the best pure coverage man in football because of his versatility in both man and zone coverage. He is the best in football at disguing his coverages, and because the cover 2 IS a zone-based defense, he often fools the offense.

apickmans

06-07-2006, 05:38 PM

Many on here agree with the masses just so they dont get bashed for saying what they think.

Heh kinda like whats happening to you HH??

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:40 PM

Well if it's true you arent very smart for a smart person.

Also where is the "series" of lies I am waiting or was that you lying?

For arguement's sake, I'll pretend that made sense.....

The lies started with your claiming I said Newman was the best corner in football. It then continued with you denying that you didnt do anything of the sort.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:41 PM

Heh kinda like whats happening to you HH??

Bingo

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:42 PM

I've already explained this. Whether or not Bailey is better in coverage is debateable, however he is a bigger defensive playmaker.

Ok then Bailey is out because you yourself said he gave up big plays

Ronde Barber is, IMO, the best pure coverage man in football because of his versatility in both man and zone coverage. He is the best in football at disguing his coverages, and because the cover 2 IS a zone-based defense, he often fools the offense.

Now do you have any facts to back this? Remember we are not talking about best over a career, or overall best. We are talking about best LAST season only. So is there anything you can point to that says Barber is better other than your opinion?

Otherwise you saying everyone overrates newman on this board simply by saying he was the best in one year is you saying your OPINION over who was better is all that matters. So does your opinion overrule everyone on this board or is it possible you are wrong?

cowboyfreak

06-07-2006, 05:44 PM

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:44 PM

Lets see you call me a liar because I did not clarify "cover" corner in one sentence, even though I had established we were talking about cover CB's in the previous sentence and you wonder why you editing it out of your post has to do with anything? lmao 152 IQ indeed.

If this is true, then you just contradicted yourself, as I said he was considered the best cover corner by many here, and then you agreed by stating that was your belief. You then go onto say that I misunderstood the board by believing you and others believed he was, in fact, the best cover corner in football?

Do you understand how that makes no sense whatsoever?

So, unless you are just a living, breathing contradiction, you are weasling your way out of a lie.

There are few things lower than a liar, one of them being those who dont admit their lies.

5Stars

06-07-2006, 05:45 PM

... I am fairly firm in my believe that I am not, in fact, an idiot.

Just an FYI...that should read;

"I am fairly firm in my "belief" that I am..."

That should kick that IQ up to 153...

Just trying to help....carry on!

:starspin

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:46 PM

For arguement's sake, I'll pretend that made sense.....

The lies started with your claiming I said Newman was the best corner in football. It then continued with you denying that you didnt do anything of the sort.

So just ignore the fact that in the same post you say I "lied" in, I had already established we were talking about cover corners? Are you really so feebleminded that I have to keep saying "cover" over and over? With a 152 IQ I figured you knew what we were discussing

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:49 PM

If this is true, then you just contradicted yourself, as I said he was considered the best cover corner by many here, and then you agreed by stating that was your belief. You then go onto say that I misunderstood the board by believing you and others believed he was, in fact, the best cover corner in football?

Do you understand how that makes no sense whatsoever?

So, unless you are just a living, breathing contradiction, you are weasling your way out of a lie.

There are few things lower than a liar, one of them being those who dont admit their lies.

Again you missed the point. People said he was the best LAST year which I also stated in the post, and you took it to mean best overall (cover corner not just for 1 year). Damn I could have worded it better but I thought you were smart enough to know what we were discussing. I won;t make that mistake again.

Now again Barber is the best LAST year, so are you going to answe rmy previous post or dance around it?

Edit damn i did it again

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:51 PM

Ok then Bailey is out because you yourself said he gave up big plays

Now do you have any facts to back this? Remember we are not talking about best over a career, or overall best. We are talking about best LAST season only. So is there anything you can point to that says Barber is better other than your opinion?

Otherwise you saying everyone overrates newman on this board simply by saying he was the best in one year is you saying your OPINION over who was better is all that matters. So does your opinion overrule everyone on this board or is it possible you are wrong?

I dont have stats outside of INTs, which dont establish best coverage player, though he did have 5, whereas Newman only had 3. However, he did have 20 passes defenced, as opposed to Newman's 16, which is a decent indicator of a good cover corner. You just have to watch the two play to differentiate.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:52 PM

Again you missed the point. People said he was the best LAST year which I also stated in the post, and you took it to mean best overall (cover corner not just for 1 year). Damn I could have worded it better but I thought you were smart enough to know what we were discussing. I won;t make that mistake again.

Now again Barber is the best LAST year, so are you going to answe rmy previous post or dance around it?

Edit damn i did it again

No I didnt. Caught right in the middle of a lie, trying to tell us all how it wasnt a lie. :lmao2:

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:53 PM

Just an FYI...that should read;

"I am fairly firm in my "belief" that I am..."

That should kick that IQ up to 153...

Just trying to help....carry on!

:starspin

Typo smack. Wonderful :rolleyes:

5Stars

06-07-2006, 05:55 PM

Typo smack. Wonderful :rolleyes:

It's all good...! :)

Here, just for you...

:starspin :starspin :starspin

Vintage

06-07-2006, 05:55 PM

Can I go offtopic for a second and ask a question related to the thread, or is that a no-no?

Can someone provide a link of the article that said Newman gave up 0 TD's and 300 yards passing?

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:56 PM

I dont have stats outside of INTs, which dont establish best coverage player, though he did have 5, whereas Newman only had 3. However, he did have 20 passes defenced, as opposed to Newman's 16, which is a decent indicator of a good cover corner. You just have to watch the two play to differentiate.

See your posts are much better when you arent being an ***.

Another indicator of a good cover corner is TD's allowed along with receptions and yards given up. While not certain I would believe Newman bests him in these categories.

So what is more important a few pass defensed and 2 INTs or keeping your man from scoring as well as gaining many yards?

The problem we run into is when you are using what you now say is only an opinion in order to say the whole board overrates Newman. At least with Newman we have solid reasons to call him the best cover CB in football last season ) TDs and 300 yards is a pretty damn good reason. Yet you say we overrate him simply because your opinion doesn't match? That seems a bit egotistical to believe your own opinion outweighs alot of this forum aswell as statistical data to back up the Newman point.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:57 PM

No I didnt. Caught right in the middle of a lie, trying to tell us all how it wasnt a lie. :lmao2:

Did you read the line after the part you bolded?

cowboyfreak

06-07-2006, 05:57 PM

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:57 PM

Typo smack. Wonderful :rolleyes:

You do the typos smack to people as well.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 05:59 PM

See your posts are much better when you arent being an ***.

Another indicator of a good cover corner is TD's allowed along with receptions and yards given up. While not certain I would believe Newman bests him in these categories.

So what is more important a few pass defensed and 2 INTs or keeping your man from scoring as well as gaining many yards?

The problem we run into is when you are using what you now say is only an opinion in order to say the whole board overrates Newman. At least with Newman we have solid reasons to call him the best cover CB in football last season ) TDs and 300 yards is a pretty damn good reason. Yet you say we overrate him simply because your opinion doesn't match? That seems a bit egotistical to believe your own opinion outweighs alot of this forum aswell as statistical data to back up the Newman point.

Again, I have no idea what Barbers catches given up were. It the difference is vast, then I will recount this opinion. Just from watching them play though, Barber seems to get thrown at less.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 05:59 PM

Can I go offtopic for a second and ask a question related to the thread, or is that a no-no?

Can someone provide a link of the article that said Newman gave up 0 TD's and 300 yards passing?

Adam from this board was the first to mention the little over 300 yards and 0 TDs. He is usually spot on with everything he says.

link (http://dallascowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56610&highlight=brandt) Gil Brandt mentions in this article Newman gave up 0 TD's last season, so since Adam was right on that as well as so many other things, I tend to believe the yardage total too.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 06:02 PM

Again, I have no idea what Barbers catches given up were. It the difference is vast, then I will recount this opinion. Just from watching them play though, Barber seems to get thrown at less.

Try to find out the info and bring it to the table and I doubt anyone would give you such a hard time. Newman was not thrown at alot either, Henry was tested as well as the zone with Davis in it.

Giving your opinion that Barber was better last year is good, saying that everyone overrates Newman because your opinion doesn't match not so good.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 06:10 PM

Who do you bump from the Pro Bowl last year to put Newman in?

A caller to Sirius the other day tried in vain to state the premise of this thread. Shine and Wilcotts (the hosts) would have nothing of it and kept repeating the initial sentence of this post.

I know who I bump, but would like to know what the zone thinks.

Its a tough call between Hall, and Vasher.

Vasher had gaudy INT numbers but was not that great in coverage, and Hall was basically the same having like 4? Pass deflections and giving up some big plays.

So the answer is I have no clue lol but one of those 2 for sure

cowboyfreak

06-07-2006, 06:17 PM

Its a tough call between Hall, and Vasher.

Vasher had gaudy INT numbers but was not that great in coverage, and Hall was basically the same having like 4? Pass deflections and giving up some big plays.

So the answer is I have no clue lol but one of those 2 for sure

It's definately out of those 2. I lean toward Hall because of the ridiculous hype that surrounded him all year. This simply from being a braggart against the Eagles and T.O. on week one. His coach lied to him and told him he owned him - Madden and the media ate it up. They forgot to look at T.O.s stat line and realize that Donnyboy was playing hurt for much of the game.

BigDFan5

06-07-2006, 06:19 PM

It's definately out of those 2. I lean toward Hall because of the ridiculous hype that surrounded him all year. This simply from being a braggart against the Eagles and T.O. on week one. His coach lied to him and told him he owned him - Madden and the media ate it up. They forgot to look at T.O.s stat line and realize that Donnyboy was playing hurt for much of the game.

I agree he gave up over 100 yards to TO in that game I believe yet they still hyped him as shutting TO down.

5Stars

06-07-2006, 06:33 PM

I agree he gave up over 100 yards to TO in that game I believe yet they still hyped him as shutting TO down.

Some things about Newman that people don't take in to account, is that he can come up and stop the run...Deion didn't like too..Newman can hit...

INT's and all that don't really mean squat...it's the overall player that makes the player...

Parcells said, "Newman cannot be intimated...no matter what, he just waits for the next play", or something like that.

The one year? (two years ago)? when he had an off year, remember, he played hurt the whole season...

:star:

bh32

06-07-2006, 07:33 PM

Newman hardly even covered any teams #1 receiver.

31smackdown

06-07-2006, 07:36 PM

Look... I would be very interested to see how many int's came from qb pressure, deflections, etc... and how many were pure int's.

The main difference I see between these other guys and Newman is that they all take more risks.. they all jump routes and cheat off of their man to make a play or int that they anticipate. This is not team football and I can promise that BP doesn't coach it. Newman is a solid player and plays his responsibility and trusts his teammates to play theirs, as he should.

Ty Law freely admits than many of his ints come from breaking off his responsibility and anticipating a throw. Look at Bailey against us last year.. he jumps the out route to Keyshawn for a pic and then gets burned for a TD on the pump fake the second time.

Newman plays low risk compared to these guys.. he doesn't freelance to make a play.. in my book that's a good thing. I much rather he let the receiver catch a five yard out and tackle him, instead of going for the pick, missing and giving up a td because he has single coverage on the guy

big dog cowboy

06-07-2006, 07:50 PM

TNew overrated? Gimme a break. He doesn't get enough credit.

The30YardSlant

06-07-2006, 08:39 PM

Newman hardly even covered any teams #1 receiver.

:lmao:

Do you even watch the games? He covered Steve Smith, arguably the best WR in football last year, the entire game, and did a pretty good job.

bh32

06-07-2006, 09:07 PM

SultanOfSix

06-07-2006, 09:19 PM

He didn't cover the best receivers "all the time." No cornerback in the league does. Even Deion didn't do that all the time.

Many times, your best corner will lock down the second receiver, while the first receiver will be covered with help from another person. It's harder to beat two people than it is one, no matter how great a cornerback you are.

AdamJT13

06-07-2006, 09:27 PM

alright if he covers a teams bet wr, than why did these teams wr's blow up on your team.
mccardell 9-123-2tds
s moss 5-159-2tds
b Lloyd 4-142-2tds
r moss 4-123
r williams 5-72
E kennison 4-92
so explain these numbers if he covered all teams best wr.

Newman doesn't follow the opponent's best receiver on every play in every game (no cornerback in the NFL does that). He plays his position and covers whoever lines up against him.

McCardell had one catch for 16 yards against Newman. Santana Moss had one catch for 9 yards (in two games) against Newman. Lloyd didn't catch a pass against Newman. Randy Moss didn't catch a pass against Newman. Roy Williams had three catches for 35 yards against Newman. Kennison had one catch for 22 yards. Those six guys COMBINED for six catches for 82 yards on 14 pass attempts against Newman.

Against Steve Smith, Terrell Owens, Torry Holt, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Rod Smith and Amani Toomer, Newman allowed a TOTAL of six catches for 84 yards on 15 attempts.

StanleySpadowski

06-07-2006, 09:43 PM

Some things about Newman that people don't take in to account, is that he can come up and stop the run...Deion didn't like too..Newman can hit...

INT's and all that don't really mean squat...it's the overall player that makes the player...

Parcells said, "Newman cannot be intimated...no matter what, he just waits for the next play", or something like that.

The one year? (two years ago)? when he had an off year, remember, he played hurt the whole season...

:star:

What "off year"??? He had a few so-so games in '04 but was statistically as good as any corner in the NFL for catches, yards against and TDs allowed for the entire season.

Hostile

06-07-2006, 09:56 PM

When people get compared to Nors it is for one reason more than any other.

Nors stated things as fact and when confronted about what was wrong NEVER could back up what he said with anything other than his opinion and spin control. It usually included some form of accusation about the poster who dared contradict him.

When asked for facts to back up his claims he couldn't ever produce them. All the while spinning it back as the other person's task since they brought it up.

Bring up the facts that proved him wrong and they were always discounted.

Nors opinion carried more weight in his mind than the rest of the world combined and he was always a victim of persecution for his intelligance.

When opinions weigh more than facts people will notice. Just food for thought.

dozin_theknick

06-07-2006, 09:59 PM

OK, who would you rather have than Newman? If you pick Chump Bailey you lose all credibility immediately. Remember a snowy night in Denver? Or, if you had the draft pick all over again, would you pick another corner?

koolaid

06-07-2006, 10:45 PM

Newman doesn't follow the opponent's best receiver on every play in every game (no cornerback in the NFL does that). He plays his position and covers whoever lines up against him.

McCardell had one catch for 16 yards against Newman. Santana Moss had one catch for 9 yards (in two games) against Newman. Lloyd didn't catch a pass against Newman. Randy Moss didn't catch a pass against Newman. Roy Williams had three catches for 35 yards against Newman. Kennison had one catch for 22 yards. Those six guys COMBINED for six catches for 82 yards on 14 pass attempts against Newman.

Against Steve Smith, Terrell Owens, Torry Holt, Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Rod Smith and Amani Toomer, Newman allowed a TOTAL of six catches for 84 yards on 15 attempts.

thats crazy awsome, thanks for that piece of info

Calicowboy

06-07-2006, 11:38 PM

WilmingtonHeel

06-07-2006, 11:55 PM

I see the skins fan is picking up his lip and ducking away. One thing noone has said in this thread he wasn't called for a PI last year either, folks that's good as it gets

Seven

06-07-2006, 11:55 PM

:lmao:

Do you even watch the games? He covered Steve Smith, arguably the best WR in football last year, the entire game, and did a pretty good job.

Sorry, but I gotta.......Do you even watch the games? He covered Steve Smith the ENTIRE game? I believe 'ol Mr. Smith was ejected early, very early in that game. Next.

You won't quit when you need to. You're gonna get athletes tongue one of these days.

Dale

06-08-2006, 12:12 AM

BigDFan5

06-08-2006, 12:22 AM

Sorry, but I gotta.......Do you even watch the games? He covered Steve Smith the ENTIRE game? I believe 'ol Mr. Smith was ejected early, very early in that game. Next.

You won't quit when you need to. You're gonna get athletes tongue one of these days.

Smith was ejected with a couple minutes left in the 3rd Quarter

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 12:23 AM

we may tend to overrated Newman, but after the year he had last year, can you blame us? I would definitely put him top 5 at his position, and I feel he was arguabley the #1 corner last year

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 12:25 AM

Newman is very good, I don't think he is as good as Sanders. Deion scared QB's in his prime and when he got his hands on the ball he was a major threat to take it to the house. He was one of the very few who could bait a QB into throwing to what looked like a wideopen target and be able to cover the ground and make the pick. I think Deion was the best cover CB to play the game. JMO

I think Newman can eventually get to that level, he definitely has the closing speed, but having QBs tending to look the other side is a good thing too

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 12:28 AM

This team has flaws, some pretty major ones at that.

no doubt, but they seem to be pretty few and far between nowadays

Newman is a good corner, top 10 definately, but he is not an elite cover corner just yet.

he was an elite cover corner last year, I agree with Alexander's statement that we should wait to see him string up a couple more consecutive years like last year, or close to it, before we annoint him the best cover corner, but last year, last year, he was the best

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 12:29 AM

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 12:31 AM

but he still has a lot of room for improvement.

in what areas? please elaborate

now I'll buy he needs to do this for more than just a year

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 12:35 AM

I'd still take Champ Bailey over Newman. Granted, he does give up big plays more often than Newman did last year, however he more than makes up for it with big plays.

I thought you were arguing against Newman being the best coverage corner last year? someone getting beat more doesn't help you

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 12:37 AM

Stop dancing around the truth.

projection anyone? 3rd, defense mechanism?

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 12:41 AM

Just from watching them play though, Barber seems to get thrown at less.

:rolleyes: how convenient

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 12:42 AM

The main difference I see between these other guys and Newman is that they all take more risks.. they all jump routes and cheat off of their man to make a play or int that they anticipate. This is not team football and I can promise that BP doesn't coach it. Newman is a solid player and plays his responsibility and trusts his teammates to play theirs, as he should.

:hammer:

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 12:43 AM

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 12:45 AM

He's not outspoken, nor does he generate "highlight-reel" plays or touchdowns, so he doesn't naturally draw attention like some of the higher-profile corners.

Plus, he was coming off a season in 2004 that a lot of people considered to be a disappointment, so I think people are waiting for a repeat performance before touting him too highly.

I seriously think it's because people heard so much about Newman struggling in '04, then when '05 came around, they didn't hear his name, because noone was doing anything against him, and he wasn't getting INTs on prime-time television, and thus he got lost in the shuffle

Seven

06-08-2006, 12:53 AM

Smith was ejected with a couple minutes left in the 3rd Quarter

Hardly constitutes an entire game.
However, I was wrong.http://dallascowboyszone.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif

superpunk

06-08-2006, 07:09 AM

So now Adam AND Brandt are BOTH lying about Newman giving up 0 TDs??

They don't agree with HH's made-up position.

Of course they're lying.

Xavier23

06-08-2006, 07:33 AM

Alot of people thought Anthony Henry was the teams Defensive MVP last year, but when a quarterback throws in your direction most of the game and doesnt even attempt to throw to Newmans side what does that say? 0 tds allowed and no PI's says alot about a corner. Newmans only bad year was in 2004 when he was playing hurt and lost some of his confidence, and it wasn't that bad of a year considering it was a knee injury.

MossBurner

06-08-2006, 07:33 AM

Newman is a good corner. Shawn Springs is a good corner. Lito Sheppard is a good corner. Go to an Eagles website and Lito is the best corner in the East. Go to a Redskins site and Springs is probably thought of as the best...

Newman is overrated here. That being said, he is BY FAR the best corner on the Cowboys and was therefore avoided more so than any corner in the division. The talent gap is larger between Newman/Henry than with Springs/Rogers...

cowboyfreak

06-08-2006, 07:37 AM

burmafrd

06-08-2006, 07:43 AM

Overall the BOys have the best combo of Newman/Henry.

Jarv

06-08-2006, 07:45 AM

My 152 IQ is not the basis of this discussion, it is your series of lies

Congrats, that puts you in the Mensa range. You should post your cert as your sig pic. Thats a very high honor and you should be proud. I would love to see it !

http://www.mensa.org/index0.php?page=10

How do I qualify for Mensa?

Membership in Mensa is open to persons who have attained a score within the upper two percent of the general population on an approved intelligence test that has been properly administered and supervised. There is no other qualification or disqualification for membership eligibility.

The term "IQ score" is widely used but poorly defined. There are a large number of tests with different scales. The result on one test of 132 can be the same as a score 148 on another test. Some intelligence tests don't use IQ scores at all. Mensa has set a percentile as cutoff to avoid this confusion. Candidates for membership in Mensa must achieve a score at or above the 98th percentile (a score that is greater than or equal to 98 percent of the general population taking the test) on a standard test of intelligence.

Generally, there are two ways to prove that you qualify for Mensa: either take the Mensa test, or submit a qualifying test score from another test. There are a large number of intelligence tests that are "approved". More information on whether a test you have taken is approved, as well as information on the procedure for taking the Mensa test, can be obtained from the nearest Mensa office. There are no on-line tests that can be used for admission to Mensa. Feel free to contact Mensa for specific details about eligibility.

Mensa has no other eligibility requirements other than IQ testing. However, many tests are not valid for people under the age of 16. You should contact the nearest Mensa office for more information.

MossBurner

06-08-2006, 08:02 AM

Are you trying to say that Rogers sucks as much as Springs?

:dissskin:

Of course, the Skins defense and corners sucked last season.

dmq

06-08-2006, 08:04 AM

I think he is underrated.

Doomsday101

06-08-2006, 08:09 AM

I could careless if people think Newman is the greatest or not, bottom line he is a great fit in Dallas and does his job and that is what matters. This non-sense of well so and so is better who cares does Newman get the job done? Yes and that why he is here. Does he make the Dallas secondary better? Yes

cowboyfreak

06-08-2006, 08:35 AM

Of course, the Skins defense and corners sucked last season.

Seriously, I just find it comical that you would rate Springs equal to or near the same level with Newman and also say that Rogers is closer to that "best in division" label than Henry.

Did you watch Henry before his injury last year?

In fact, I think that the stats prove that Rogers isn't even on par with Springs who is clearly behind Newman and even Henry if you are going by last years stats.

Name _G_Tkl_S_I_Yd_ TD_PD

Newman_16_59_1_3_16_ 0_14
Henry___12_48_0_3_102_1_11
Springs _15_50_0_1_ 2 _0 _8
Rogers _ 12_46_0_2_14 _0 _2

*NFL.COM

Yeah, if you throw away the stats it's easy to say that Rogers is closer to Springs than Henry is. But the proof shows otherwise.

I was really joking to tell the truth, but after re-visiting the stats maybe your corners do suck:wink2:

Vintage

06-08-2006, 08:49 AM

Hostile

06-08-2006, 08:53 AM

DeAngelo Hall career averages per season
Tackles: 43
Sacks: .25
INT: 4
Passes Defensed: 4

Deion Sanders career averages per season
Tackles: 20.65
Sacks: .06
INT: 3.12
Passes Defense: 4.71

Anthony Henry
Takles: 59
Sacks: 0
INT: 5
Passes Defensed: 8.6

YEAH!!!!!GO STATS!!!!!!!!!

Henry PWNS Sanders and Hall!!one!111!!1!1!1

Henry is better than both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I'm sorry but that is such a ridiculous statement. You make yourself and other Cowboys fans look bad saying stuff like that without joking. If you're going to tell me you were joking add the smilies.

No kidding man, that's just awful. It makes me want to delete the post for its silliness before too many people see it.

MossBurner

06-08-2006, 09:00 AM

Seriously, I just find it comical that you would rate Springs equal to or near the same level with Newman and also say that Rogers is closer to that "best in division" label than Henry.

Where in the world did I say that?

burmafrd

06-08-2006, 09:01 AM

Its clear to anyone with any intelligence that Newman is the best corner in the division. Henry is right up there with the best of the rest.

Alexander

06-08-2006, 09:02 AM

I'm sorry but that is such a ridiculous statement. You make yourself and other Cowboys fans look bad saying stuff like that without joking. If you're going to tell me you were joking add the smilies.

No kidding man, that's just awful. It makes me want to delete the post for its silliness before too many people see it.

You need smilies to tell you that was a joke?

I think Vintage is more intelligent than that.

And if he was serious, I hope you ban him.

Hostile

06-08-2006, 09:03 AM

You need smilies to tell you that was a joke?

I think Vintage is more intelligent than that.

And if he was serious, I hope you ban him.I hope he was joking. I don't know.

That was Redskins logic.

Vintage

06-08-2006, 09:04 AM

You need smilies to tell you that was a joke?

I think Vintage is more intelligent than that.

And if he was serious, I hope you ban him.

I am glad the point of my post didn't fly over your head.

Otherwise, this would all be a lost cause....I thought it was obvious with all the Pwn!11one11!!!1 stuff....

The whole reason I posted that...well actually, the real reason for it, was some Panther fans were arguing our corners sucked bec. Newman and Henry's stats paled in comparison to Gamble and Lucas, so I made that post to show that stats for a CB are very misleading...

Then I saw someone pull the same stunt talking about Rogers and Springs...so I decided to copy and paste the post I made on the Panther's board.

Vintage

06-08-2006, 09:07 AM

I'm sorry but that is such a ridiculous statement. You make yourself and other Cowboys fans look bad saying stuff like that without joking. If you're going to tell me you were joking add the smilies.

No kidding man, that's just awful. It makes me want to delete the post for its silliness before too many people see it.

Next time :bang2: I :laugh1: will :starspin make :eek: sure:lmao2: I :lmao: throw:mad: in :) the proper :confused: amount:cool: of :rolleyes: smilies.....

:p:

Hostile

06-08-2006, 09:09 AM

Next time :bang2: I :laugh1: will :starspin make :eek: sure:lmao2: I :lmao: throw:mad: in :) the proper :confused: amount:cool: of :rolleyes: smilies.....

:p:Whew, thank you.

Hey, it's early. My jaw dropped.

Alexander

06-08-2006, 09:10 AM

Next time :bang2: I :laugh1: will :starspin make :eek: sure:lmao2: I :lmao: throw:mad: in :) the proper :confused: amount:cool: of :rolleyes: smilies.....

:p:

Good one.

BrAinPaiNt

06-08-2006, 09:11 AM

Whew, thank you.

Hey, it's early. My jaw dropped.

Well pick up your jaw, then click your mouse on the ban button anyways. :p:

Vintage

06-08-2006, 09:12 AM

Whew, thank you.

Hey, it's early. My jaw dropped.

LOL....

Yeah...I just don't like seeing people use INTs, Tackles, and passes defensed as means to prove a corners superiority over another...

I think passes defensed is a decent indicator...but it only gets counted if someone throws at you.

What doesn't show up is blanketing your WR and the QB has to look elsewhere bec. of it.... That to me, is great coverage. Yet, it doesn't show up in the stat book.

But allowing a 23 yard pass and making the tackle does.

Alexander

06-08-2006, 09:13 AM

I am glad the point of my post didn't fly over your head.

Otherwise, this would all be a lost cause....I thought it was obvious with all the Pwn!11one11!!!1 stuff....

Anytime I see the PWNT, OWN things or excessive punctuation, I immediately dismiss the commentary as blabbering from a mental deficient. But I know you aren't so I got the joke.

Hostile

06-08-2006, 09:13 AM

LOL....

Yeah...I just don't like seeing people use INTs, Tackles, and passes defensed as means to prove a corners superiority over another...

I think passes defensed is a decent indicator...but it only gets counted if someone throws at you.

What doesn't show up is blanketing your WR and the QB has to look elsewhere bec. of it.... That to me, is great coverage. Yet, it doesn't show up in the stat book.

But allowing a 23 yard pass and making the tackle does.I have a newfound respect for you.

That other post was a blow to my ticker.

This one restores my faith in humanity.

Vintage

06-08-2006, 09:15 AM

Anytime I see the PWNT, OWN things or excessive punctuation, I immediately dismiss the commentary as blabbering from a mental deficient. But I know you aren't so I got the joke.

Gracias.

:)

kartr

06-08-2006, 09:35 AM

I think it's both.

We, as fans, do overrate him. The NFL, as a whole, underrates him. I think he's much better then what he's given credit for.

I think one point that is being missed is that he was a top 6 pick, yet Rashean Mathis of Jacksonville has better numbers and he was a second rounder. He has to cover Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Andre Johnson every year and the alternate corner is just a guy. Plus Jacksonville has already redone his rookie deal they're so impressed with the guy. I was so impressed with his scouting report, I wanted him in the 2nd round to pair with Kevin Williams in the first round in 2003. In my view, we whiiffed big time in our 2003 draft. Williams would have made Ekuban better and he might still be on the team. It's not that I think Newman is bad, I just don't see him as special, he's not the next Deion Sanders as Jerry described him. I think Mathis is closer.

kartr

06-08-2006, 09:40 AM

I think it's both.

We, as fans, do overrate him. The NFL, as a whole, underrates him. I think he's much better then what he's given credit for.

Also, the Couch scout web site ranks Mathis at 25, Newman at 31 and Anthony Henry at 47. I looked this up after the first message I sent you. My initial statement was based comparing Newman's numbers to Mathis numbers on NFL.com.

Vintage

06-08-2006, 10:04 AM

Coincidentally, I was hoping we were going to draft Kevin Williams in round one and Rashean Mathis in round two....

burmafrd

06-08-2006, 10:09 AM

Claiming that Mathis is covering Harrison, etc ignores what kind of coverage is going on. Newman has covered Steve Smith, TO and others as well. And up untill last year Newman did not have a top guy next to him either.

Jay9508

06-08-2006, 10:16 AM

Newman is inconsistent, one year he plays like a top 3 corner and the next year he plays like football is something new to him. He's not getting much from the media because of that, if he can play like he did last season for this upcoming season, then the media would mention him more often. But to answer your question all Cowboys fans don't over rate him, they give him his respected props.

kartr

06-08-2006, 11:00 AM

Many on here agree with the masses just so they dont get bashed for saying what they think.

Then that explains the group mentality here and why divergence of opinion is so unappreciated.

Derinyar

06-08-2006, 11:03 AM

Then that explains the group mentality here and why divergence of opinion is so unappreciated.
Reasoned and supported divergance of opinion is appreciated. Unreasoned kneejerking opinions get bashed, and they deserve to.

BigDFan5

06-08-2006, 12:47 PM

Reasoned and supported divergance of opinion is appreciated. Unreasoned kneejerking opinions get bashed, and they deserve to.

:hammer:

BrAinPaiNt

06-08-2006, 01:00 PM

Reasoned and supported divergance of opinion is appreciated. Unreasoned kneejerking opinions get bashed, and they deserve to.

Ding Ding Ding

Or people that latch on to one or two topics like a rabid snapping turtle and go to the ends of exaggeration to try and prove their point even though they are proven wrong time and time again.

Actually the few times I see Kartr post on something other than QC some mention of a QC related topic it shocks me.

BigDFan5

06-08-2006, 01:03 PM

Ding Ding Ding

Or people that latch on to one or two topics like a rabid snapping turtle and go to the ends of exaggeration to try and prove their point even though they are proven wrong time and time again.

Actually the few times I see Kartr post on something other than QC some mention of a QC related topic it shocks me.

You aren't kidding. Seeing Kartr outside of a QB/Crankcase thread is a humbling experience

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 01:06 PM

have you guys seen the elusive non-Crankase post from katr?

BrAinPaiNt

06-08-2006, 01:08 PM

have you guys seen the elusive non-Crankase post from katr?

I actually was reading a thread yesterday today, and I thought it was a non QC (even non QB) related topic he posted about.

It shocked me.:laugh1:

Actually it is in this very thread.

He is talking about mathis at CB for the jags.

Really shocked me he did not find a way to somehow include QC or in some way allude to a race card.

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 01:11 PM

uh, what, wh..wh..where am I?

sorry, I just fainted Brain

BrAinPaiNt

06-08-2006, 01:17 PM

uh, what, wh..wh..where am I?

sorry, I just fainted Brain

I farted, you fainted.

It all works out.:p:

Bob Sacamano

06-08-2006, 01:19 PM

I farted, you fainted.

It all works out.:p:

:starspin

stilltheguru

06-08-2006, 01:22 PM

i love when skins fans come in here and try to not be homers.

what exactly did rogers do last year?seriously

he had a good game here and there but its not like he played in all 16 games and was locking people down.get outta here with that.

lets see what he does next year when terry glenn is running past him.

henry and newman>>>springs and rogers.

BigDFan5

06-08-2006, 01:23 PM

I farted, you fainted.

It all works out.:p:

http://www.fortune3.com/~comp66570/86920154.jpg

kartr

06-08-2006, 03:28 PM

I actually was reading a thread yesterday today, and I thought it was a non QC (even non QB) related topic he posted about.

It shocked me.:laugh1:

Actually it is in this very thread.

He is talking about mathis at CB for the jags.

Really shocked me he did not find a way to somehow include QC or in some way allude to a race card.

The QC hatred on this board is so out of control, that you don't really notice my other posts. You think of me as the QC guy, which makes you ignore the other posts I make on our roster. I've talked about Mathis over Newman for over a year, I've talked about Kevin Williams for over a year, I've talked about Omar Jacobs, Richard Marshall, Jonathan Orr, Shawne Merriman, Chris Brown of the Titans over Witten, who I like, but thought we needed a decent back over a 4th tight end. I've talked about Parcells infatuation with tight ends and linebackers and how the tight end is a complimentary receiving option, not a go to position.. How on earth you can get race out of my wanting the best athletes at every position boggles the mind. I didn't want Leftwich, I don't want Brooks or Vick as my qb, but I did want Jason Campbell or Omar Jacobs. I want the best athletes at every position, period. I loved Staubach, I hated Danny White. I loved Steve Young's and Elways athleticism, but didn't like Marino the statue. I love Farve's athleticism, but hate Bledsoe the statue. The one common denominator in a qb I like is athleticism, not race. You can learn to read defenses or throw accurately, but you can't learn to run.

AdamJT13

06-08-2006, 03:45 PM

I think one point that is being missed is that he was a top 6 pick, yet Rashean Mathis of Jacksonville has better numbers and he was a second rounder. He has to cover Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Andre Johnson every year and the alternate corner is just a guy. Plus Jacksonville has already redone his rookie deal they're so impressed with the guy. I was so impressed with his scouting report, I wanted him in the 2nd round to pair with Kevin Williams in the first round in 2003. In my view, we whiiffed big time in our 2003 draft. Williams would have made Ekuban better and he might still be on the team. It's not that I think Newman is bad, I just don't see him as special, he's not the next Deion Sanders as Jerry described him. I think Mathis is closer.

RaShean Mathis? Please.

According to K.C. Joyner, in 2004, Newman's "bad" year, Newman ranked eighth in the NFL in both completion percentage allowed (46.6 percent) and yards allowed per attempt (5.8 ypa). Mathis ranked 49th in completion percentage allowed (58.4) and 47th in yards allowed per attempt (7.5 ypa).

Last year, Mathis got burned for a bunch of long touchdowns, including an 83-yard TD by Kevin Curtis, a 31-yard TD by Corey Bradford and a 65-yard TD by Marvin Harrison. He also allowed at least three other touchdowns, too (14 yards to Chad Johnson, 1 yard to Eric Edwards and 5 yards to Larry Fitzgerald), and possibly more.

Also, the Couch scout web site ...

You do know what Couch Scout is, don't you? Using that site as a source doesn't help your argument one bit.

Hostile

06-08-2006, 03:52 PM

The QC hatred on this board is so out of control, that you don't really notice my other posts. You think of me as the QC guy, which makes you ignore the other posts I make on our roster. I've talked about Mathis over Newman for over a year, I've talked about Kevin Williams for over a year, I've talked about Omar Jacobs, Richard Marshall, Jonathan Orr, Shawne Merriman, Chris Brown of the Titans over Witten, who I like, but thought we needed a decent back over a 4th tight end. I've talked about Parcells infatuation with tight ends and linebackers and how the tight end is a complimentary receiving option, not a go to position.. How on earth you can get race out of my wanting the best athletes at every position boggles the mind. I didn't want Leftwich, I don't want Brooks or Vick as my qb, but I did want Jason Campbell or Omar Jacobs. I want the best athletes at every position, period. I loved Staubach, I hated Danny White. I loved Steve Young's and Elways athleticism, but didn't like Marino the statue. I love Farve's athleticism, but hate Bledsoe the statue. The one common denominator in a qb I like is athleticism, not race. You can learn to read defenses or throw accurately, but you can't learn to run.That's the problem with having an aenda there krankcase, people just don't take you seriously. I tried to warn you about that a long time ago.