Auburn investigation

[Qwickdraw]

Carnell Williams is part of an academic investigation at Auburn that alleges the players received A's for attending no classes and doing little work.
Professor Thomas Petee reportedly instructed at least 18 2004 Auburn football players in individual classes that are coming under scrutiny. Auburn surprisingly ranked with the highest grades of any D-I major conference football team that season.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/sports/ncaafootball/14auburn.html?ex=1153022400&en=66449d169bf13c58&ei=5087%0A

[ABQCOWBOY]

Carnell Williams is part of an academic investigation at Auburn that alleges the players received A's for attending no classes and doing little work.
Professor Thomas Petee reportedly instructed at least 18 2004 Auburn football players in individual classes that are coming under scrutiny. Auburn surprisingly ranked with the highest grades of any D-I major conference football team that season.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/sports/ncaafootball/14auburn.html?ex=1153022400&en=66449d169bf13c58&ei=5087%0A

No big surprise IMO. Been going on for years. Also, not the only program this kind of thing goes on with.

[Funxva]

No big surprise IMO. Been going on for years. Also, not the only program this kind of thing goes on with.

All I have to say is where teachers like that for me when I was in school?

[Yeagermeister]

All I have to say is where teachers like that for me when I was in school?
Were you a football player? :D

[Thick 'N Hearty]

Didn't Dexter Manley go to Auburn?:rolleyes:

[AbeBeta]

Carnell Williams is part of an academic investigation at Auburn that alleges the players received A's for attending no classes and doing little work.

lots of college courses these days will give you a high grade for doing very little - professors have broad authority to evaulate performance anyway they want to - this one will be pretty hard to prove

people get upset about this stuff but what they should be angry about is that most college athletes get extensive tutoring and assistance with assignments and studying for free so that they can pass classes - that sort of opportunity isn't available to most students - most folks would do better in classes if they had someone checking their work all the time.

[BlueStar22]

No big surprise IMO. Been going on for years. Also, not the only program this kind of thing goes on with.
Exactly, anyone who has attended any D-1A school knows this. I saw it all the time at Southern Miss. I worked in the student union in college and remember coming across an essay left in the rec hall, written by a football player. This garbage had spelling errors, puncuation errors, grammatical errors, etc. and had a big fat 98 circled in red at the top. It's sad really.

[Duane]

A friend of mine went to a major Texas university in the 90's on football scholarship. He said as long as he was starting he'd get good grades. Basically he got his books for the semester, put them in a box in the closet at the beginning of the season and took them out at the end of the season.

[AbeBeta]

A friend of mine went to a major Texas university in the 90's on football scholarship. He said as long as he was starting he'd get good grades. Basically he got his books for the semester, put them in a box in the closet at the beginning of the season and took them out at the end of the season.

unfortunately that describes a lot of college students who are not athletes -- except the book part. many don't even bother getting the books now.

[EMMITTnROY]

hmmm.. so does that mean that between this and all the USC scandals, we should throw out that whole USC/Auburn split national championship thing and split it between OU and Utah? I think so!! :D

[BlueStar22]

unfortunately that describes a lot of college students who are not athletes -- except the book part. many don't even bother getting the books now.
not those that are their on their own or their parent's dime.

[ABQCOWBOY]

hmmm.. so does that mean that between this and all the USC scandals, we should throw out that whole USC/Auburn split national championship thing and split it between OU and Utah? I think so!! :D

Well, I think it should be Utah. OU lost in the bowl that year, I believe. Utah didn't so yeah, I think it should be Utah.

[EMMITTnROY]

Well, I think it should be Utah. OU lost in the bowl that year, I believe. Utah didn't so yeah, I think it should be Utah.
very true.. BUT.. OU finished 3rd in the final rankings that year and Utah 4th, even with Utah being undefeated.. plus the fact that OU actually played in the championship game.. pay no mind to the fact that I am indeed an OU fan.. that's got nothing to do with this.. :p:

[Yeagermeister]

Well, I think it should be Utah. OU lost in the bowl that year, I believe. Utah didn't so yeah, I think it should be Utah.
I say give it to Utah just because the other team is OU :D

[EMMITTnROY]

I say give it to Utah just because the other team is OU :D
HEY!! :fight:

:D

[AbeBeta]

not those that are their on their own or their parent's dime.

you work at a uni?

I'm talking from years of direct experience here.

[Funxva]

Were you a football player? :D

LOL, yup! And basketball! But of course, half of that was at a Catholic school, so maybe that's why... And I'm not even Catholic! Yeag.. you just helped me realize! It was a damn conspiracy! :eek:

[GTaylor]

Didn't Dexter Manley go to Auburn?:rolleyes:

Oklahoma State, and this was his coach:

http://www.sportshair.com/images/jimmy_johnson.jpg

[ConcordCowboy]

Hey I thought Ohio St was the only College that did this.:D

[Yeagermeister]

Hey I thought Ohio St was the only College that did this.:D
They were the only ones to get caught :D

[ConcordCowboy]

They were the only ones to get caught :D

DOH!

We've got to work on the Coverup Department!:D

[RCowboyFan]

unfortunately that describes a lot of college students who are not athletes -- except the book part. many don't even bother getting the books now.

Heck I was one of those, although I played sports for college, not in US, so there was no pampering. Its just because I managed to get enough grades without putting in a lot of effort. Although it cost me a extra year, on the flip side.

The thing is, in real world, that never hurt me, and actually did much better initially than the book worms. But then I was more into aquiring knowledge than getting good grades. So I never did selective studying like people bent on good grades. Not that trying to get good grades is bad, but I never get the concept of studying solely to get good grades instead of trying to understand what you are studying thoroughly.

So personally I don't see the big deal about althletes getting away easy in school. Since its their loss first of all, if they don't make it big in sports, to make living as normal work force. Good grades may get you to a an interview at best, what you do after that is solely based on the knowledge/experience you have.

[AbeBeta]

Heck I was one of those, although I played sports for college, not in US, so there was no pampering. Its just because I managed to get enough grades without putting in a lot of effort. Although it cost me a extra year, on the flip side.


extra year - that's funny.

these days you'll see a majority of college students taking 5-8 years to complete a degree -- smart kids -- like you clearly were -- can easily get through college without much effort (obviously that depends on your major).

athletes -- well many don't belong at a university. simple as that -- how can you blame the school for doing them favors? they brought them into a situation where there was no way in hell they could succeed -- they aren't going to finish the degree anyway and their only shot is sports -- but if they flunk classes they can't even play sports. almost makes you think we need some sort of minor league for the NFL as an alternative to college.

[RCowboyFan]

extra year - that's funny.

these days you'll see a majority of college students taking 5-8 years to complete a degree -- smart kids -- like you clearly were -- can easily get through college without much effort (obviously that depends on your major).

athletes -- well many don't belong at a university. simple as that -- how can you blame the school for doing them favors? they brought them into a situation where there was no way in hell they could succeed -- they aren't going to finish the degree anyway and their only shot is sports -- but if they flunk classes they can't even play sports. almost makes you think we need some sort of minor league for the NFL as an alternative to college.

Well where I was from, extra year means, you either weren't smart or you were lazy ( which is the case for me mostly), so I wasn't trying to be funny there actually :) Mine was Computer Science and electronics, but major had nothing do with, but like my father always said, I was lazy one, I had cousin was was like that, a brilliant guy, but never bothered to study, but when he did, he just excelled.

But, thats besides the point, my thing is, or point I want to make is, why do people think that Athletes are getting away with something? I never really get that. I mean Degree is not going to you earn you anything in this world. Heck I got a buddy, certified genious, who barely completed 1st year of his college, but probably earns more than double than any guy with compartive experience and more college degrees than him, just because he so damn good.

Heck, why go there, we got Bill Gates as bigger example. So it really doesn't give the guys who get away with not attending courses or really doing anything to get a grade in those courses. Besides College are earning more money because of these athletes than the athletes themselves.

[the kid 05]

this happened to me in High school, this past year was my sr. year and i was playin wr and we we're doing good, 4th in state. but any ways i always slept in my math class, statistics, but the ironic thing is the teacher was our Offensive Cordonator. and i ended up with a C. it was cool but now that i sit here im kinda bummbed i didn't actually try in the class

[AbeBeta]

But, thats besides the point, my thing is, or point I want to make is, why do people think that Athletes are getting away with something? I never really get that. I mean Degree is not going to you earn you anything in this world. Heck I got a buddy, certified genious, who barely completed 1st year of his college, but probably earns more than double than any guy with compartive experience and more college degrees than him, just because he so damn good.

Heck, why go there, we got Bill Gates as bigger example. So it really doesn't give the guys who get away with not attending courses or really doing anything to get a grade in those courses. Besides College are earning more money because of these athletes than the athletes themselves.

Yeah but those are extreme examples -- really smart folks don't need college -- especially since college is getting so damn dumbed down

athletes, are they getting away with something? I doubt it -- they are working hard and many are earning cash for the university -- some might get a break -- but there are also lots of athletes who recognize they are in college for the education and serious bust tail.

also, I'd suspect that the athletes who are doing the least in school are going to drop out and not graduate anyway once their eligibility is up -- certainly most of the star athletes do that. so that limits the damage.

[RCowboyFan]

Yeah but those are extreme examples -- really smart folks don't need college -- especially since college is getting so damn dumbed down

athletes, are they getting away with something? I doubt it -- they are working hard and many are earning cash for the university -- some might get a break -- but there are also lots of athletes who recognize they are in college for the education and serious bust tail.

also, I'd suspect that the athletes who are doing the least in school are going to drop out and not graduate anyway once their eligibility is up -- certainly most of the star athletes do that. so that limits the damage.

I understand what you are saying is, but my point is still, that the damage is to themselves and no one else. Thats all I am saying. You work hard for you degree, you learn something, that comes in use when you want work. If you don't, you learn nothing and you get employed at Mac.

So, the proffessors aren't doing these athletes any favors, IMO.

[Yeagermeister]

If you don't, you learn nothing and you get employed at Mac.


The Hambrick Bros say what's wrong with that? :D

[5Stars]

The Hambrick Bros say what's wrong with that? :D

Not only the Hambricks...but moNt17 and kartr, and that Answer poster, they all went to a school on one of them Scholorship things! Look how they turned out...? Hey, if you can get by...?

:lmao:

[AbeBeta]

So, the proffessors aren't doing these athletes any favors, IMO.

You know, you fail a star athlete and you are all of a sudden having to schedule various meetings with their advocates (many campuses have an "advocate" for student-athletes) -- my experience is that the advocates are a pain in the butt and are very persistent since their job is to maintain the kid's eligibility. unfortunately, athletes get placed in a lot of classes taught by graduate students and new faculty - often these folks can be easy to manipulate.

honestly, professors have a lot more important stuff to deal with -- grants, research, writing, etc. sometimes it is easier just to give a C- and be done with it.

[Rack Bauer]

Oklahoma State, and this was his coach:

http://www.sportshair.com/images/jimmy_johnson.jpg


And? Is it the coach's responsibility to teach the athletes? Or is that job left up to the actual TEACHERS?

[AbeBeta]

And? Is it the coach's responsibility to teach the athletes? Or is that job left up to the actual TEACHERS?

A. They are called Professors.
B. Garbage in -- Garbage out.

[5Stars]

A. They are called Professors.
B. Garbage in -- Garbage out.

It's a one way street...

The teachers (professors) are under tons of preassure to NOT flunk a big time school athlete...the better that team does, the more money the school gets.

Because of this, a Coach can only do so much, and that is to encourage the kids to get the education "on their own", because it's available for them, if they want it. If not? You better make sure that you can play in the NFL!

It's really noones fault...the Professor or Coach...it's up to the player make the smart decision...

It's a one way street...the student/athelete must take the right road.

:star:

[AbeBeta]

It's a one way street...

The teachers (professors) are under tons of preassure to NOT flunk a big time school athlete...the better that team does, the more money the school gets.

Because of this, a Coach can only do so much, and that is to encourage the kids to get the education "on their own", because it's available for them, if they want it. If not? You better make sure that you can play in the NFL!

It's really noones fault...the Professor or Coach...it's up to the player make the smart decision...

It's a one way street...the student/athelete must take the right road.

:star:

of course, the professor might have a student once - sometimes in a class of nearly 400 students -- the athlete may have considerable help from a tutor to write papers etc. Let's say you've got a Dexter Manley in your class -- you might not be able to figure that out because you've got so little contact.

On the other hand, the coach spends a hell of a lot more time with the player.

Who is more likely to know that the kid can't read?

I gotta put it on the coach here.

[stag hunter]

per F.O.:

"A New York Times investigation of the Auburn football program reveals, among other things, that Cadillac Williams took only two classes during the spring semester of his senior year, both one-on-one courses with Professor Thomas Petee. Williams wasn’t the only one; 18 Auburn football players took 97 hours of individual study with Petee, averaging a 3.31 GPA in those classes. The same 18 players had a 2.14 GPA in their other classes. That’s just one story from an interesting look at what academics can look like at a big-time football school."

[Rack Bauer]

A. They are called Professors.
B. Garbage in -- Garbage out.


A. Professors Schmofessors. They're still TEACHERS. Just cuz they're doing it at the collegiate level doesn't mean they aren't teachers anymore.

B. You got my point.

C. I forgot to take out the trash last night.


On the other hand, the coach spends a hell of a lot more time with the player.

And yet it's STILL not the coach's job to TEACH the player. It's his job to COACH the player.

Who is more likely to know that the kid can't read?

I gotta put it on the coach here.


Just cuz the coach is "most likely" to know doesn't mean it's his fault. That line of thinking is completely ignorant. "Well, we gotta blame someone, who is the one most likely to know he couldn't read? The coach? BLAME HIM!"

Yeah that's really freakin' smart. :rolleyes:


If you wanna blame someone blame his moronic parents. The coach's job is to coach, not make sure he can read. You don't expect teachers to instruct a DE on how to use his hands to get by an offensive tackle, do you?

[Bob Sacamano]

Were you a football player? :D

a good football player?

[InmanRoshi]

Who was it the other day who was encouraging nathanlt to watch college football instead of the NFL for the innocence and purity of it? What was it? Just a bunch of guys playing for the love of the game?

That was one of the most unintentially hilarious lines on this board in a long time.

[InmanRoshi]

And? Is it the coach's responsibility to teach the athletes?

No. Its the coaches job to ensure that the dumb athletes don't have to take classes with real teachers and/or make sure the teachers are fired if they flunk the players.

[Rack Bauer]

No. Its the coaches job to ensure that the dumb athletes don't have to take classes with real teachers and/or make sure the teachers are fired if they flunk the players.


Pretty sure that's not in a coach's job description either.

[JackMagist]

people get upset about this stuff but what they should be angry about is that most college athletes get extensive tutoring and assistance with assignments and studying for free so that they can pass classes - that sort of opportunity isn't available to most students - most folks would do better in classes if they had someone checking their work all the time.I see no reason to be angry about them getting special tutoring. Most of these guys will not go pro and they put in a lot of time for the university athletic program. It is fair because they spend time and take risks in the athletic programs that are not required of other students. They need the extra help to simply keep up due to their time constraints; this I believe is the factor that causes the NCAA to allow the practice. It isn't monetary in nature (not per se) and it is within the guidelines set up by the NCAA. I grant that it is preferential treatment but I don't see where it is anything that they don't deserve or that should be begrudged them.

[Pokes28]

For what it is worth Manley could read.

He may not have been the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he wasn't functionally illiterate either. Remember that the revelation that he couldn't read only came out after he failed a large number of drug tests. Basically, it was an attempt to change the story. Since most people in this country associate drug use with stupidity, it was basically an attempt to tell people that he didn't have a choice or a chance. It is similar to how when a celebrity is found to have some perversion how they almost always find God.

Many people at OSU are still pissed at Manley for that stunt. Pissed enough that the school didn't even attempt to recruit his son (who is going to go to Oregon I think).

David Harrell - Pokes
dwh

[big dog cowboy]

Many people at OSU are still pissed at Manley for that stunt. Pissed enough that the school didn't even attempt to recruit his son (who is going to go to Oregon I think).
Really? I hasn't heard that. Thanks!

[GTaylor]

Really? I hasn't heard that. Thanks!
Same here, changes my opinion of him (Manley/Johnson)

[AbeBeta]

A. Professors Schmofessors. They're still TEACHERS. Just cuz they're doing it at the collegiate level doesn't mean they aren't teachers anymore.


They do more than teach. University professors might spend 15% of their time teaching -- it is only one aspect of their job. that's like calling a restaurant owner a "cook" b/c he spends some of his or her time doing that.


And yet it's STILL not the coach's job to TEACH the player. It's his job to COACH the player.

Just cuz the coach is "most likely" to know doesn't mean it's his fault. That line of thinking is completely ignorant. "Well, we gotta blame someone, who is the one most likely to know he couldn't read? The coach? BLAME HIM!"

Yeah that's really freakin' smart. :rolleyes:

If you wanna blame someone blame his moronic parents. The coach's job is to coach, not make sure he can read. You don't expect teachers to instruct a DE on how to use his hands to get by an offensive tackle, do you?

and a professor at say, Ohio State might have 500 students in his or her classroom. That prof doesn't even have the opportunity to learn the student's names.

the coaches and their assistants are first and foremost university personnel -- part of their job is education. if they want to ignore that aspect of the job fine, but they need to get blame for it when they do. also, many of the assistant coaches will have responsibility for tutoring or even administering exams on the road -- that puts them in far closer educational contact than a professor with 500 students. also, the teams regulalrly provide tutors for the students -- if anyone knows whether the kid can read or not it would be the football staff.

[5Stars]

What ever happened to the entrance exams you must pass before a University would even allow you to attend? What are they? SAT's?

Anyway, Joe Schmo would have to pass that test before he is even considered at a University, yet, they allow some punk like Sean Taylor to attend a University because he can play ball...

Now, who do we blame?

:star:

[AbeBeta]

What ever happened to the entrance exams you must pass before a University would even allow you to attend? What are they? SAT's?

Anyway, Joe Schmo would have to pass that test before he is even considered at a University, yet, they allow some punk like Sean Taylor to attend a University because he can play ball...

Now, who do we blame?

:star:

if Joe Schmo did awful on his SAT but had other attributes - e.g., perhaps he had written a successful play as a high school student -- he would get the same sort of consideration.

schools don't have an absolute criteria for admissions -- it isn't just the SAT score at most places.

[5Stars]

if Joe Schmo did awful on his SAT but had other attributes - e.g., perhaps he had written a successful play as a high school student -- he would get the same sort of consideration.

schools don't have an absolute criteria for admissions -- it isn't just the SAT score at most places.

Aside from revenue, what does an athlete bring to an educational institution? What are they contributing to that education?

Non athletes that have to pay for their education are contributing their money to the school and are most likely interacting with their peers to become better at what they are trying to learn...like pre-med for example.

What do football players contribute, if they are just playing football and not taking the education seriously?

Maybe I'm not making sense here! :eek:

:star:

[Big D]

This is why college athletes need to be paid!

[AbeBeta]

Aside from revenue, what does an athlete bring to an educational institution? What are they contributing to that education?

Non athletes that have to pay for their education are contributing their money to the school and are most likely interacting with their peers to become better at what they are trying to learn...like pre-med for example.

What do football players contribute, if they are just playing football and not taking the education seriously?

Maybe I'm not making sense here! :eek:

:star:

Athletes are making a serious contribution to university life -- in fact, having a great sports team is a tremendous recruiting tool for non-athletes who like sports as well.

School isn't just about the books and education -- it is about the entire experience -- sports, the arts, social scene -- these are all important aspects of the university experience. Football players contribute to that in a big way.

And from experience I can tell you, it is a small minority of athletes who don't take the education seriously -- they are the ones you notice the most -- but the majority work hard and can manage to pass courses on their own. The whole "dumb jock" stereotype is unfortunate as many of the jocks are good students. Some are dumb -- but you know what, in a class of non-jocks you are going to get folks who don't take it seriously either.

As far as 'paying for it' -- the athletes are making the school tons of cash -- they are more than paying for their education.

[AbeBeta]

This is why college athletes need to be paid!

they are being paid. an education with room and board at a major university can cost well over 100k for 4 years(over 200k at many). That's a pretty damn solid payment considering that the athletes are basically serving an intership that can turn into a huge money career.

if they choose to waste the payment they are getting then too bad for them.

most universities would never be able to pay athletes in cash -- you'd be surprised by how tight budgets are at most schools -- you start paying people and you'd never have a team like Troy State ever being able to produce quality players again. payment would concentrate all the talent at a few schools.

[Big D]

they are being paid. an education with room and board at a major university can cost well over 100k for 4 years(over 200k at many). That's a pretty damn solid payment considering that the athletes are basically serving an intership that can turn into a huge money career.

if they choose to waste the payment they are getting then too bad for them.

most universities would never be able to pay athletes in cash -- you'd be surprised by how tight budgets are at most schools -- you start paying people and you'd never have a team like Troy State ever being able to produce quality players again. payment would concentrate all the talent at a few schools.


And just how valuable is an education where the teachers just hand out A's to move you along?

[AbeBeta]

And just how valuable is an education where the teachers just hand out A's to move you along?

You take a single case of a professor allegedly handing out an A and assume that reflects every program. It doesn't at all. Also, we have no idea what sort of work was required in that class -- and frankly, on any campus there are going to be classes like that -- jocks or not.

[Big D]

You take a single case of a professor allegedly handing out an A and assume that reflects every program. It doesn't at all. Also, we have no idea what sort of work was required in that class -- and frankly, on any campus there are going to be classes like that -- jocks or not.

You are correct in that it doesn't mean this happens with every program but it happens more often than not. Don't get me wrong, I think anyone going to college should cherish the opportunity , but when talking about athletes (football and basketball in particular ) , these guys seem to get shafted again and again.

They get in front of a camera and can barely speak which , to me , suggests they've been pushed through at every level because of their athletic talents. Which is why I feel they should be paid because they obviously haven't been paid with an "education".

[AbeBeta]

You are correct in that it doesn't mean this happens with every program but it happens more often than not. Don't get me wrong, I think anyone going to college should cherish the opportunity , but when talking about athletes (football and basketball in particular ) , these guys seem to get shafted again and again.

They get in front of a camera and can barely speak which , to me , suggests they've been pushed through at every level because of their athletic talents. Which is why I feel they should be paid because they obviously haven't been paid with an "education".

It is BS that "it happens more often than not" -- that is just totally untrue -- I've spent several years teaching at large universities and I can tell you that stuff is RARE. more likely it is the case that the students are getting by in classes with a ton of tutoring and extra help.

for every guy who can "barely speak" there are many well spoken athletes - but you remember the ones who can't speak because it fits your stereotype of the dumb jock. and you know what -- some really smart people talk like they just came out of the hood -- you speak a certain way for 18 years and it is hard to change -- in some ways it is like being from another country - accents are almost impossible to lose after acquiring them.

[Big D]

Im not trying to say that there arent any smart athletes out there. I'm just saying that the NCAA makes way too much to let stuff like this happen, no matter how rare it is.

If the NFL , NBA, MLB, and NHL can afford millions in player salaries then the NCAA, which is basically all of those on a collegiate level wrapped in one, should be able to commit enough resources to make sure these athletes arent pushed through.

[AbeBeta]

Im not trying to say that there arent any smart athletes out there. I'm just saying that the NCAA makes way too much to let stuff like this happen, no matter how rare it is.

If the NFL , NBA, MLB, and NHL can afford millions in player salaries then the NCAA, which is basically all of those on a collegiate level wrapped in one, should be able to commit enough resources to make sure these athletes arent pushed through.

nice thought but not realistic -- there is far too much the NCAA can't control -- for example, how would the NCAA know if a student was able to get a hold of a copy of previous semester's assignments to copy? or old tests?

there is simply no way for the NCAA to monitor this b/c grading is often subjective and is always entirely up to the judgement of the professor. If a professor gives a football player a passing grade on a final paper, how can the NCAA review that? The professor is the expert, his or her decision is not subject to review by non-experts on the topic.

[Big D]

nice thought but not realistic -- there is far too much the NCAA can't control -- for example, how would the NCAA know if a student was able to get a hold of a copy of previous semester's assignments to copy? or old tests?

there is simply no way for the NCAA to monitor this b/c grading is often subjective and is always entirely up to the judgement of the professor. If a professor gives a football player a passing grade on a final paper, how can the NCAA review that? The professor is the expert, his or her decision is not subject to review by non-experts on the topic.


Agreed. It's not the NCAA's fault that an athlete makes it through jr high and then high school without being able to pass a test but, the NCAA could test its athletes and monitor those tests to at least measure where the athlete is academically, and then take steps from there.

I just think the the whole system is out of wack and it starts as early as grade school for some athletes and noone benifits greater than the NCAA.

[ghst187]

This is why college athletes need to be paid!
:bang2: :bang2: :bang2: :bang2:

If they are going to get paid, then they should have to pay tuition, tutors, books, meals, room, etc.
You'd also have to drop the "amateur" from their status
You'd also see a complete domination, exponentially moreso, by a handful of big name schools. Medium and small schools would almost have to fold their athletic programs they'd be so noncompetitive. Or you could throw out a salary cap but the big schools would veto that of course.

An athlete that gets a full ride to a big school probably gets a red-shirt year + four full years of all expenses paid, quality education. (I've also known some that cut deals so if they don't finish a degree in those 5 years, they still get the rest of their classes/tuition paid for, or they work in a masters degree as part of the deal). A generous estimate is $10k per semester. Multiply that by 10 semesters...and that's $100k! How many kids right out of high school can get a 20k+ per year job working 8 months of the year? Esp one where they get yr round free health coverage, dental, various and random perks, and get treated like royalty?
I'm sure most end up walking away with much more than 100k in college expenses fully paid for but I think a free education is pretty generous and adequate compensation. Sure the colleges make oodles of money off the athletic programs but it wasn't always that way. Money is already starting ruin a once GREAT and pure level of sports...(not to mention the athletes themselves) getting more of it involved in the decision process is only going to continue to degrade it.
Crap, the NCAA can't even come up with an effective way to crown a football champion because the big $$$ schools veto some very common sense solutions, can't really expect them to solve much as long as big-name- school money is so involved.
If the NCAA really cares about education, keeping college athletics in its rightful place, and pure of sport, then it needs to reassert control of college sports. It needs to distribute more of the revenue across to all schools, mandate a good % of the athletic revenues be spent on academics, go on a full out witch-hunt regarding booster violations and illegal gifts/perks, and tighten up student-athlete academic requirements.
Allowing money even MORE influence onto college athletics the exact WRONG answer and will also hurt the academic environment there.

I spent 6 1/2 yrs in 3 different colleges graduating at least once from each of them with athletics paying for a good chunk of that. I've seen all sides of it. The way schools recruit, esp the big ones, has turned it into such an "entitlement" program that spoiled rotten doesn't even begin to describe a lot of the athletes in the big money programs. I've seen a lot of illegal recruiting transactions even by non-big name schools, large amounts of cash passed, fancy new cars "on loan," free name-brand clothes, and booster aid to poor families of recruited athletes. College football and basketball have a dirty, hidden side and they need an enema. Most of the rest of college athletics still have their head on straight and are still kept in the proper perspective. Also, plenty of student athletes were like myself and sports was a tool to pay for college when otherwise means weren't available. Many of my old teammates went on, graduated, and became very successful in non-sports related endeavors. But I've long felt that we were closer to the exception rather than the rule for student-athletes in the big two sports- football and basketball. Those two especially need cleaned up and empowering the big $$$ schools with even more $$$ is NOT the answer.
PS, I find it terribly ironic that one of the most leftist entities in our society (universities) fights against "leveling the playing field." Guess its different when its coming directly out of YOUR pocket.

[AbeBeta]

PS, I find it terribly ironic that one of the most leftist entities in our society (universities) fights against "leveling the playing field." Guess its different when its coming directly out of YOUR pocket.

hmm, universities leftist. maybe that is because they full of educated people.

and I think that offering opportunites, often to underpriviledged kids, to get an education b/c they can play sports does help level the playing field in many ways.

also, I've told you before -- use the freaking enter key and write in paragraphs so folks can actually read what the hell you are writing.

[BigDFan5]

hmm, universities leftist. maybe that is because they full of educated people.


The reason they are more lft is because hey hire people who agree with their own politics. Past polls and trends show that college Grads favor the republican party in elections. Non high school grads favor Dems. If you add in persons trying for post grad study then it evens out and becomes a tie

[AbeBeta]

The reason they are more lft is because hey hire people who agree with their own politics. Past polls and trends show that college Grads favor the republican party in elections. Non high school grads favor Dems

University hiring has nothing to do with politics -- that stuff never EVER comes up in interviews and it pretty much is a taboo topic to even mention in a job interview. most universities have very explicit policies that forbid discussing pretty much any personal beliefs or background unless the applicant brings it up. for example, you wouldn't even be able to ask an applicant "do you have kids?" So how on earth, in an interview that is, at the longest two days, is a university hiring committee ever going to get a sense of a person's politics? Hiring is based on a handful of things -- most prominently the quality of someone's research -- there are very few fields where your research would give any indication at all of your political beliefs.

and university faculty are not just college graduates -- most have doctoral degrees (or in fields where there is no doctoral, an M.A.). that's a good bit more education than a college graduate

[ghst187]

hmm, universities leftist. maybe that is because they full of educated people.

and I think that offering opportunites, often to underpriviledged kids, to get an education b/c they can play sports does help level the playing field in many ways.

also, I've told you before -- use the freaking enter key and write in paragraphs so folks can actually read what the hell you are writing.

I attribute the university leftism to not actually ever leaving the academic ivory towers which is the case for the vast majority of professors. A lot of ideas sound great and make perfect sense, they just don't always work out the way they were supposed to.

I certainly was one of the underpriv'ed kids that made his way through playing sports. What I meant by "leveling the field" what to even out the distribution of athletic program revenues both A) across the NCAA to other schools and B) across the individual school itself instead of pouring all the football revenues back into the the football program, give some to the library or something. (I know most schools do this but it could be better.) And certainly I agree that sports is an important way for many to better their lives, I just don't like all the illegal monies/incentives that change hands in the process, mostly perpetrated and pushed by OVERprivileged boosters.

enter key? what's that? ok, thanks dad.
I didn't think anyone read what I typed anyway.

[jimmy40]

Well, I think it should be Utah. OU lost in the bowl that year, I believe. Utah didn't so yeah, I think it should be Utah.And Utah didn't quit in the middle of their game.

[jimmy40]

This is why college athletes need to be paid!They aren't? I see A&M players walking around wearing jewelry that's worth more than the towns they grew up in. I'm sure it's the same in other college towns.