Which QB has the most 4th Quarter Comebacks

[thescarface1989]

Does anyone have a list?:confused:
I know John Elway has the most but, how many does Drew Bledsoe currently have?

[The Answer]

Does anyone have a list?:confused:
I know John Elway has the most but, how many does Drew Bledsoe currently have?

Bledsoe currently has 33 come from behind wins.....and counting.

~The Answer

[lane]

Bledsoe currently has 33 come from behind wins.....and counting.

~The Answer

i love your avatar..

[StanleySpadowski]

How about "Which QB has the worst career post-season passer rating among all active QBs with at least 50 career post-season passes"?

[ABQCOWBOY]

How about "Which QB has the worst career post-season passer rating among all active QBs with at least 50 career post-season passes"?

Your cruel Stan.

[StanleySpadowski]

Your cruel Stan.


I'm sorry.:o: :o:


I just thought that that would be a much better indicator of a QB's "clutchness" than an arbitrary statistic like fourth quarter comebacks (any statistic that makes Jake Plummer look great isn't very reliable).

[Hater]

Table 1. Top 10 quarterbacks at comebacks since 1996
Rank Quarterback Wins Losses
1 Jake Plummer 19 28
2 Peyton Manning 19 29
2 Vinny Testaverde 19 29
4 Tom Brady 13 8
5 Jon Kitna 15 23
6 Kerry Collins 17 30
7 Donovan McNabb 12 15
8 Marc Bulger 10 5
9 Jake Delhomme 10 12
9 Jay Fiedler 10 12

A very comprehensive breakdown:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ramblings.php?p=3978&cat=0

[rcaldw]

Just remember, your team has to BE BEHIND in order to COME FROM BEHIND. Which is one reason why it is an overrated stat.

[The Answer]

Just remember, your team has to BE BEHIND in order to COME FROM BEHIND. Which is one reason why it is an overrated stat.

No it's not...shows what a true wartime QB is made of.

Bledsoe has been involved in many come from behinds because the teams he played on were lousy and put him in an ineviable position to throw the ball almost every down.

~The Answer

[big dog cowboy]

Just remember, your team has to BE BEHIND in order to COME FROM BEHIND. Which is one reason why it is an overrated stat.
Ding ding ding we have a winner!

[JMead]

Just remember, your team has to BE BEHIND in order to COME FROM BEHIND. Which is one reason why it is an overrated stat.

I think it depends on how good your defense is. If its good and you rarely trail or when you do trail its only by 3 points then I would say its an overrated stat. But if you defense sucks and you seem to be losing by 7+ points all the time than it can be impressive.

[ka0tik]

I think its always good to have one of the best in come from behind. Bledsoe probably does throw a lot more INT's in 'comeback play'. Reminds me of players in the NBA who shoot shot-buzzards. Never seen one better than MJ.

:D

[JMead]

I think its always good to have one of the best in come from behind. Bledsoe probably does throw a lot more INT's in 'comeback play'. Reminds me of players in the NBA who shoot shot-buzzards. Never seen one better than MJ.

:D

No clue how many INTs he has but I do know that 16 or 17 of his 33 Comebacks have come by way of a TD pass.

[rcaldw]

[QUOTE=The Answer]No it's not...shows what a true wartime QB is made of.

Bledsoe has been involved in many come from behinds because the teams he played on were lousy and put him in an ineviable position to throw the ball almost every down.

~The Answer[/QUOTE

Drew Bledsoe is a statue with a great arm and questionable accuracy and judgment. I'm sorry, that might sound harsh, but it is spot on, and I hope we have enough talent this year to overcome it.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I looked over a few rosters that Drew played on while in NE and they didn't look that poor to me. Perhaps it's just me. That happens but I don't know that I would agree with the perception that Bledsoe played on lots of sorry teams.

[rcaldw]

I looked over a few rosters that Drew played on while in NE and they didn't look that poor to me. Perhaps it's just me. That happens but I don't know that I would agree with the perception that Bledsoe played on lots of sorry teams.

You are not wrong, you are right. I think it is a pretty widely held opinion that Bledsoe is a good but limited player and not a guy on the level of an Aikman, or Brady or guys like that. That doesn't mean he's a bad QB, he's not, but I don't and can't agree with those who want to make him out as a great "wartime" QB. That is just wishful thinking. When I think of Bledsoe, I think of someone alot like Warren Moon, but a step below that. (Only because of Moon's mobility) A guy who can sling the ball around and from time to time make you go "wow, that was a GREAT throw", but not a guy who had the stuff to be a multiple Super Bowl winner, and to date, not a Super Bowl winner at all.

[StarAmongStars]

Shouldn't bledsoe be on that list? Dude has been involved with big time comebacks left and right for years now:confused:

[jterrell]

Bledsoe has won 4 playoff games. 4 more than most current NFL starters.

He is 4-3 and has been poor to bad in the post-season thus far.
He likely needs at least 1 good post season run to get inthe Hall of Fame but thats really all his resume lacks.

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1993 nwe | 13 | 214 429 49.9 2494 5.8 15 15 | 32 82 0 |
| 1994 nwe | 16 | 400 691 57.9 4555 6.6 25 27 | 44 40 0 |
| 1995 nwe | 15 | 323 636 50.8 3507 5.5 13 16 | 20 28 0 |
| 1996 nwe | 16 | 373 623 59.9 4086 6.6 27 15 | 24 27 0 |
| 1997 nwe | 16 | 314 522 60.2 3706 7.1 28 15 | 28 55 0 |
| 1998 nwe | 14 | 263 481 54.7 3633 7.6 20 14 | 28 44 0 |
| 1999 nwe | 16 | 305 539 56.6 3985 7.4 19 21 | 42 101 0 |
| 2000 nwe | 16 | 312 531 58.8 3291 6.2 17 13 | 47 158 2 |
| 2001 nwe | 2 | 40 66 60.6 400 6.1 2 2 | 5 18 0 |
| 2002 buf | 16 | 375 610 61.5 4359 7.1 24 15 | 27 67 2 |
| 2003 buf | 16 | 274 471 58.2 2860 6.1 11 12 | 24 29 2 |
| 2004 buf | 16 | 256 450 56.9 2932 6.5 20 16 | 22 37 0 |
| 2005 dal | 16 | 300 499 60.1 3639 7.3 23 17 | 34 50 2 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 188 | 3749 6548 57.3 43447 6.6 244 198 | 377 736 8 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

Seasons among the league's top 10
Pass attempts: 1994-1, 1995-1, 1996-1, 1997-3, 1998-8, 1999-3, 2000-8, 2002-2, 2005-8
Completions: 1994-1, 1995-7, 1996-1, 1997-2, 1998-8, 1999-6, 2000-8, 2002-3, 2005-8
Passing yards: 1994-1, 1996-3, 1997-4, 1998-6, 1999-6, 2002-2, 2005-8
Passing TDs: 1993-10t, 1994-4, 1996-3, 1997-3, 1999-10t, 2002-7, 2005-8t
Adjusted yards per pass: 1997-8, 1998-10, 2002-9

Among the league's all-time top 50
Pass attempts: 5
Completions: 5
Passing yards: 7
Passing TDs: 13t

Postseason data
Please read this fine print before using this data or sending questions or corrections.

Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
1994 cle L,13-20 | 21 50 235 1 3 | 2 2 0
1996 pit W,28-3 | 14 24 164 1 2 | 1 -1 0
1996 jax W,20-6 | 20 33 178 0 1 | 1 4 0
*1996 gnb L,21-35 | 25 48 253 2 4 | 1 1 0
1997 mia W,17-3 | 16 32 139 1 0 | 2 4 0
1997 pit L,6-7 | 23 44 264 0 2 | 2 -4 0
2001 pit W,24-17 | 10 21 102 1 0 | 4 1 0
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
TOTAL | 129 252 1335 6 12 | 13 7 0

[Hostile]

Bledsoe has won 4 playoff games. 4 more than most current NFL starters.3 actually. The 2001 AFC Championship game Tom Brady started and is the QB of record.

[BlueWave]

I think Bledsoe had like five come from behind wins last season (Philadelphia, CArolina, Kansas City, SanDiego, can't remember 5, but he threw it to Witten after a fake handoff.) Maybe six, didn't he bring us back against Denver, only to end up losing?

He failed one time, against Seattle. You know, the highlight you see the most in reference to Bledsoe. Doesn't seem fair.

[BlueWave]

Okay, he also brought us from behind against the 49ers, but failed against the Raiders on the last play.

Out of 7 chances, he brought us back 5 times for the win.

[5Stars]

Does anyone have a list?:confused:
I know John Elway has the most but, how many does Drew Bledsoe currently have?

This is a joke, right! Because if it's not, you have no clue!

Krankcase....the Man, the Myth, the Legdend...is the one that saved all games...he led the leaque...

Pfffff...this thread is silly! :cool: :star:

[SouthernStar]

Come-from-behind wins can take many forms.

Examples:

(1) Perhaps the team was 5 points down and the placekicker kicked two
4th quarter field goals. The QB gets the credit and HE didn't even have anything to do with the come-from-behind win.

(2) Maybe the other team fumbled the ball deep in their own territory and the QB really didn't have to do much to get the win. Perhaps he didn't even throw a pass, but the running game pounded it in for the score. Yet, the quarterback gets credit for a come-from-behind win.

(#) Maybe your defense intercepted a pass and ran it back for the winning touchdown. In this case, the QB had NOTHING to do with the come-from-behind win. Yet, he still gets the credit....

I think that I have sufficiently demonstrated that come-from-behind wins statistics are useless.

Unless you actually WATCHED the game, and saw that the QB was INSTRUMENTAL in the come-from-behind win, then it means nothing......

[jackrussell]

Just remember, your team has to BE BEHIND in order to COME FROM BEHIND. Which is one reason why it is an overrated stat.

Unless, of course, when we're talking about Roger Staubach.

[jackrussell]

Come-from-behind wins can take many forms.

Examples:

(1) Perhaps the team was 5 points down and the placekicker kicked two
4th quarter field goals. The QB gets the credit and HE didn't even have anything to do with the come-from-behind win.

(2) Maybe the other team fumbled the ball deep in their own territory and the QB really didn't have to do much to get the win. Perhaps he didn't even throw a pass, but the running game pounded it in for the score. Yet, the quarterback gets credit for a come-from-behind win.

(#) Maybe your defense intercepted a pass and ran it back for the winning touchdown. In this case, the QB had NOTHING to do with the come-from-behind win. Yet, he still gets the credit....

I think that I have sufficiently demonstrated that come-from-behind wins statistics are useless....

Maybe.:)

[AdamJT13]

Table 1. Top 10 quarterbacks at comebacks since 1996
Rank Quarterback Wins Losses
1 Jake Plummer 19 28
2 Peyton Manning 19 29
2 Vinny Testaverde 19 29
4 Tom Brady 13 8
5 Jon Kitna 15 23
6 Kerry Collins 17 30
7 Donovan McNabb 12 15
8 Marc Bulger 10 5
9 Jake Delhomme 10 12
9 Jay Fiedler 10 12

A very comprehensive breakdown:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ramblings.php?p=3978&cat=0


Is it just me, or are the tables in that article all messed up? A 19-29 record is better than a 13-8 record?

[JMead]

Come-from-behind wins can take many forms.

Examples:

(1) Perhaps the team was 5 points down and the placekicker kicked two
4th quarter field goals. The QB gets the credit and HE didn't even have anything to do with the come-from-behind win.

(2) Maybe the other team fumbled the ball deep in their own territory and the QB really didn't have to do much to get the win. Perhaps he didn't even throw a pass, but the running game pounded it in for the score. Yet, the quarterback gets credit for a come-from-behind win.

(#) Maybe your defense intercepted a pass and ran it back for the winning touchdown. In this case, the QB had NOTHING to do with the come-from-behind win. Yet, he still gets the credit....

I think that I have sufficiently demonstrated that come-from-behind wins statistics are useless.

Unless you actually WATCHED the game, and saw that the QB was INSTRUMENTAL in the come-from-behind win, then it means nothing......
Those sound like Tom Brady :lmao2:. Let me explain. About half of Brady's " comebacks " have been on the foot of Adam V ( however you spell his last name ).

Edit : Hostile.. Despite what you think. Drew Bledsoe was credited the win versus the Steelers.

[Hostile]

Is it just me, or are the tables in that article all messed up? A 19-29 record is better than a 13-8 record?No it isn't just you. I've been trying to figure it out forever. There's a 13 above a 17 so it isn't win totals.

[itoldyouSOE]

I looked over a few rosters that Drew played on while in NE and they didn't look that poor to me. Perhaps it's just me. That happens but I don't know that I would agree with the perception that Bledsoe played on lots of sorry teams.

1) Bledsoe led the Patriots to the playoffs in 4 of his 8 years as a starter in NE. I'd say that's very good. Better than a lot of QBs out there.

2) Name an o-lineman Drew had with the Pats that you wished you had, especially early in his career.

3) For as good as you think the roster looks to you on paper, let's look at some facts:

-The Pats' running game ranked between 10-27 in terms of total yards during Drew's time as a starter, good for an average of 22nd (22 out of 30 teams, for the most part.) It gets no better in terms of yards per attempt, where his team had seasons where they were ranked between 14 and 28, for an average of 24th. Just plain bad.

-The Pats had a decent D while Bledsoe was under helm, ranking from 7 to 25, for an average of 14 (again mostly out of 30 teams). This smacks of mediocrity to me. It should be noted again that Bledsoe and Steve McNair are the ONLY QBs in over the past decade to lead teams with a non-top-10 defense to the Super Bowl. So with a D that hung around middle of the pack in the league, I'd say Bledsoe did well getting the Pats to the playoffs in 50% of his time as a starter.

4) 1995 was similar to 2005 for Bledsoe. His FG kicker, Matt Bahr made 23 of 33 FGs (67.7%) in '05. The Pats lost 4 games by 5 points or less and 3 games by 3 points or less. As was the case this year, he set his team up to win, only to be let down by his special teams.

5) So with a running game ranking close to the bottom quarter of the league and a defense right at the mid-point, please, tell us all again how great these teams were that Bledsoe had in NE and how Bledsoe fouled it all up for them. The facts appear to be standing in your way.

[Hostile]

Name an o-lineman Drew had with the Pats that you wished you had, especially early in his career.Uh, Bruce Armstrong.

14 seasons, His 1st was 1987, last was 2000, making him a teammate of Bledsoe's 7 years. He made the Pro Bowl 6 times as a LT, (can you say "blindside?") 4 straight years as a teammate of Bledsoe.

Is that good enough?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[itoldyouSOE]

Those sound like Tom Brady :lmao2:.

:laugh1:

Funny you should mention this, although Southernstar has a good point. QBs are NOT credited for comeback victories if the D returns an INT for a TD. For example, when we beat Filthy on an INT return in PHI last year, Bledsoe does not get credit for that as a comeback, nor should he. A QB has to either toss a TD or set up his RB to rush for a score or for his FG kicker to kick the game winner in order to get credit.

Here is an interesting comparison between Drew and Brady in terms of what they did to get credit for their comebacks (I count 32 for Bledsoe and 15 for Brady in the regular season):

Game Winning PASSING TDs
Bledsoe: 50% (16)
Brady: 33% (5)

Game Winning FIELD GOALS Set Up
Bledsoe: 31% (10)
Brady: 53% (8)

Game Winning RUSHING TDs Set Up
Bledsoe: 19% (6)
Brady: 13% (2)

It is important to note that both faced similar average deficits (-1.06 for Brady, -1.80 for Bledsoe). Brady relied MUCH MUCH more heavily on his kicking unit to win the game for his team, as Vinatieri accounts for over half of Brady's comebacks. Bledsoe, on the other hand, has exactly half his comebacks coming via way of a passing TD. Bledsoe is more clutch than he is given credit.

[itoldyouSOE]

Uh, Bruce Armstrong.

14 seasons, His 1st was 1987, last was 2000, making him a teammate of Bledsoe's 7 years. He made the Pro Bowl 6 times as a LT, (can you say "blindside?") 4 straight years as a teammate of Bledsoe.

Is that good enough?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

My bad. Armstrong was very good. Who else? 1 man does not make a line. And I know you are not trying to argue that the Pats of the 90s were known for their great o-line. We're not talking Newton, Stepnoski, Williams, Allen and Tuinei here (27 pro bowls between them). I mean, Troy had 2 - 3 o-linemen who were perennial pro-bowlers. Bledsoe had the likes of Mike Arthur, Rich Baldinger, Eugene Chung, Mike Gisler, and Todd Rucci.

I was reminded of this a few months back when SportsCenter ran a special on SuperBowl chokes, and one of those profiled was Max Lane, who was absoltuely man-handled in the second half by Reggie White.

[rcaldw]

:laugh1:

Funny you should mention this, although Southernstar has a good point. QBs are NOT credited for comeback victories if the D returns an INT for a TD. For example, when we beat Filthy on an INT return in PHI last year, Bledsoe does not get credit for that as a comeback, nor should he. A QB has to either toss a TD or set up his RB to rush for a score or for his FG kicker to kick the game winner in order to get credit.

Here is an interesting comparison between Drew and Brady in terms of what they did to get credit for their comebacks (I count 32 for Bledsoe and 15 for Brady in the regular season):

Game Winning PASSING TDs
Bledsoe: 50% (16)
Brady: 33% (5)

Game Winning FIELD GOALS Set Up
Bledsoe: 31% (10)
Brady: 53% (8)

Game Winning RUSHING TDs Set Up
Bledsoe: 19% (6)
Brady: 13% (2)

It is important to note that both faced similar average deficits (-1.06 for Brady, -1.80 for Bledsoe). Brady relied MUCH MUCH more heavily on his kicking unit to win the game for his team, as Vinatieri accounts for over half of Brady's comebacks. Bledsoe, on the other hand, has exactly half his comebacks coming via way of a passing TD. Bledsoe is more clutch than he is given credit.

SUPER BOWL WINS: BRADY (3) - BLEDSOE (0)

I can't stand Tom Brady, but I get weary of people not getting the fact that Football isn't baseball, and the only stat that matters in the end is WINNING.

[itoldyouSOE]

SUPER BOWL WINS: BRADY (3) - BLEDSOE (0)

I can't stand Tom Brady, but I get weary of people not getting the fact that Football isn't baseball, and the only stat that matters in the end is WINNING.

I don't dispute this. The topic of this post is comeback victories.

And like baseball, football is a team sport. One player does not win it all. Brady has cashed in when given perfect circumstances (#6, #1, #2 ranked Ds in his SB years; Dillon sets Pats franchise rushing record in '04; D creates turnovers to rank them in top 10, #1 in some cases). But when he has a situation this year like Drew has had for a majority of his career (average D, bad running game), his fate was the same as Bledsoe's: great stats, no ring. It takes a team, not just Tom Brady. That's what some people just don't get.

[Hostile]

My bad. Armstrong was very good. Who else? 1 man does not make a line. And I know you are not trying to argue that the Pats of the 90s were known for their great o-line. We're not talking Newton, Stepnoski, Williams, Allen and Tuinei here (27 pro bowls between them). I mean, Troy had 2 - 3 o-linemen who were perennial pro-bowlers. Bledsoe had the likes of Mike Arthur, Rich Baldinger, Eugene Chung, Mike Gisler, and Todd Rucci.Did I maintain the Patriots were the equivalent of the early 90's Cowboys line? Uh, that would be no. You asked for even 1 OL who played with Brady that I'd take. I produced one.

Now the task is to find another one or even more ridiculous, prove the Patriots OL was equal to the Cowboys. Well, it wasn't so why even go there.

Bledsoe had no talented teammates other than Armstrong I suppose?

I think Ben Coates, Curtis Martin, Andre Tippett, Ty Law, Terry Glenn, Willie McGinnest, Chris Slade, Tedy Bruschi, Lawyer Milloy, among others might disagree with you. And so might some of the players who faced them.

No coaching? Parcells and Belichek are Hall of Famers most likely.

The picture of this guy with no help for his entire career is just pure hogwash.

[itoldyouSOE]

Did I maintain the Patriots were the equivalent of the early 90's Cowboys line? Uh, that would be no. You asked for even 1 OL who played with Brady that I'd take. I produced one.

Now the task is to find another one or even more ridiculous, prove the Patriots OL was equal to the Cowboys. Well, it wasn't so why even go there.

Bledsoe had no talented teammates other than Armstrong I suppose?

I think Ben Coates, Curtis Martin, Andre Tippett, Ty Law, Terry Glenn, Willie McGinnest, Chris Slade, Tedy Bruschi, Lawyer Milloy, among others might disagree with you. And so might some of the players who faced them.

No coaching? Parcells and Belichek are Hall of Famers most likely.

The picture of this guy with no help for his entire career is just pure hogwash.

To quote a phrase so often uttered by you: Uh, no, I never said that.

Never said Bledsoe did not have talented teammates so I'm not sure why you're saying I did. To be sure, the ones you list, among others, were key reasons for the Pats success, and a reason Bledsoe was able to lead the Pats to the playoffs in 4 of 8 seasons. Over nearly a decade, a player is bound to play with some other equally great players, so I'm not quite sure what your point is here. But anyway ...

Of all the things you focus on in my original post (I think I had 5 points, you focused on Bruce Armstrong), you still cannot refute the stats. The stats prove that, despite all these great players the Pats had that you are so enamoured with and 2 hall of fame coaches, the running games and defenses were nothing more than average to near worst in the league in Bledsoe's 8 seasons in NE.

So yeah, the stats back me up, Bledsoe has played on some bad, bad teams during his career with some horrible o-lines, save for Bruce Armstrong of course. He played with some good to great players and was the reason that many of these players (Glenn, Coates, Peerless Price, Eric Moulds) had great or career seasons with him.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Damian Woody was pretty damn good. Still is. Andruzzi was also pretty good. I guess it really doesn't matter. I could say anybody and you would find fault with it. I am fine with allowing history to be the judge of Bledsoe and the Patriots.

[itoldyouSOE]

Damian Woody was pretty damn good. Still is. Andruzzi was also pretty good. I guess it really doesn't matter. I could say anybody and you would find fault with it. I am fine with allowing history to be the judge of Bledsoe and the Patriots.

Does the definition of "pretty damn good" or "pretty good" = ZERO combined Pro Bowls, 'cause that's exactly what the two linemen you mentioned have between them.

Of all the guys that have protected Bledsoe in NE, we have come up with ONE pro bowler (Armstrong) and two average, maybe pretty good, guys in Woody who started as a ROOKIE in '99 (see Pettiti) protecting Bledsoe and Andruzzi (00) who protected Bledsoe for 15 games in his career. Generally, linemen aren't all-world in their first year or two in the league. Woody and Andruzzi were young-uns when Bledsoe was in NE. They had their moments, and Woody ended up commanding a decent salary from the Lions. But over the course of 8 years and 128 games, this is the o-line you're giving me? :confused:

[Hostile]

To quote a phrase so often uttered by you: Uh, no, I never said that.

Never said Bledsoe did not have talented teammates so I'm not sure why you're saying I did. To be sure, the ones you list, among others, were key reasons for the Pats success, and a reason Bledsoe was able to lead the Pats to the playoffs in 4 of 8 seasons. Over nearly a decade, a player is bound to play with some other equally great players, so I'm not quite sure what your point is here. But anyway ...

Of all the things you focus on in my original post (I think I had 5 points, you focused on Bruce Armstrong), you still cannot refute the stats. The stats prove that, despite all these great players the Pats had that you are so enamoured with and 2 hall of fame coaches, the running games and defenses were nothing more than average to near worst in the league in Bledsoe's 8 seasons in NE.

So yeah, the stats back me up, Bledsoe has played on some bad, bad teams during his career with some horrible o-lines, save for Bruce Armstrong of course. He played with some good to great players and was the reason that many of these players (Glenn, Coates, Peerless Price, Eric Moulds) had great or career seasons with him.Post #29 of this thread is meant to leave that impression and it seems to be a repetitive theme. He had no running game. He had no OL. He had no kicker. He had no help. Woe is Drew. It's not his fault.

Broken record.

Uh, yeah he did. There are QBs in NFL History who'd kill to play for the coaches he has with the weapons he's had.

[Hostile]

Damian Woody was pretty damn good. Still is. Andruzzi was also pretty good. I guess it really doesn't matter. I could say anybody and you would find fault with it. I am fine with allowing history to be the judge of Bledsoe and the Patriots.Forgot him. Nice job. The well gets a little more water.

[itoldyouSOE]

Post #29 of this thread is meant to leave that impression and it seems to be a repetitive theme. He had no running game. He had no OL. He had no kicker. He had no help. Woe is Drew. It's not his fault.

Broken record.

Uh, yeah he did. There are QBs in NFL History who'd kill to play for the coaches he has with the weapons he's had.

Post #29 stated: "For as good as you think the roster looks to you on paper, let's look at some facts." To me, this does not say, "Bledsoe was the only good player the Patriots had in the 90s and there were no others."

Anyway, after this lead in statement I then listed that (despite these great teammates of Bledsoe you have mentioned), the defense averaged a rank of 14th and the running game averaged rankings in the mid 20s (again, in most years out of 30 teams). Anyway you slice it, these units did an average job at best, pathetic at worst, with a few exceptions. As for individual players, was Curtis Martin great? Yes. Was Ben Coates a reception machine? Yes. Did Ty Law and Lawyer Malloy bolster the defense? No question. Did I ever say Bledsoe never had any good players around him. NO!

But again, the facts suggest that other facets of the team didn't get the job done and Bledsoe, in conjunction with some of these other great players you mentioned, often helped carry the water for other units who were slacking.

EDIT: And I have to say its killing me to see you and ABQ racking your brains trying to find good Pats o-linemen from the 1990s, all in what I can only surmise is an effort to attempt to discredit Bledsoe in any possible way you can. Fans in New England would get a good chuckle out of the two of you. A good, long, hearty chuckle.

[Hostile]

Post #29 stated: "For as good as you think the roster looks to you on paper, let's look at some facts." To me, this does not say, "Bledsoe was the only good player the Patriots had in the 90s and there were no others."

Anyway, after this lead in statement I then listed that (despite these great teammates of Bledsoe you have mentioned), the defense averaged a rank of 14th and the running game averaged rankings in the mid 20s (again, in most years out of 30 teams). Anyway way you slice it, these units did an average job at best, pathetic at worst, with a few exceptions. As for individual players, was Curtis Martin great? Yes. Was Ben Coates a reception machine? Yes. Did Ty Law and Lawyer Malloy bolster the defense? No question. Did I ever say Bledsoe never had any good players around him. NO!

But again, the facts suggest that other facets of the team didn't get the job done and Bledsoe, in conjunction with some of these other great players you mentioned, often helped carry the water for other units who were slacking.Blah, blah, blah.

Heard it all before. Not sold.

[playit12]

Is it just me, or are the tables in that article all messed up? A 19-29 record is better than a 13-8 record?

You have to read the original article. The author decided to rank guys that consistently beat the average. In this case, guys come back 30% of the time by average. So if you take Fourth Quarter Wins - (total games played x .30) you get his games won above average. In this way the list makes sense.

At first this seems very odd. Lets look at the extremes. If a guy has one 4th quarter comback attempt and succeeds, he's the best fourth quarter comeback player ever by percentage. Of course... as far as a predictor for future success, experience would tell us that it's not very valuable. By this guys scale he actually ranks very low. Probably insignificant, indicating that we don't yet know if he is or is not a good fourth quarter QB.

On the other hand, a guy that is 30 and 30 is 50% per attempts, but that is 10 more games won than you would expect from the averages. Thus, not only is he better than an average QB at fourth quarter comebacks, he's done it enough times to suggest that he will also be better in the future.

I'm not saying it's perfect... But that is the intention of the numbers.

*** edited for typos... it's late ***

[itoldyouSOE]

Table 1. Top 10 quarterbacks at comebacks since 1996
Rank Quarterback Wins Losses
1 Jake Plummer 19 28
2 Peyton Manning 19 29
2 Vinny Testaverde 19 29
4 Tom Brady 13 8
5 Jon Kitna 15 23
6 Kerry Collins 17 30
7 Donovan McNabb 12 15
8 Marc Bulger 10 5
9 Jake Delhomme 10 12
9 Jay Fiedler 10 12

A very comprehensive breakdown:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ramblings.php?p=3978&cat=0

I've seen this article before. Fascinating and glad someone is looking into it. But it is filled with asteriks.

Drew Bledsoe has had 24 game-winning drives in the 4th Q/OT since 1996, not 19 as this article suggests. (See end of message for links that prove this).

This alone leads me to question the validity of the analysis, one in which the author himself warns about how he used t-tests and ANOVAs.

There are several other problems with this article as well:

1) Related to the above, this article wrongly does not consider a QB to have led a team on a game-winning drive if his team was tied entering the 4th quarter. It also does not give credit to a QB if his team was winning entering the 4th Q, then gave up some points to allow the game to be tied, but then drove his team to score points to win the game. The problem with this analysis is if the QB whose team was down to start the 4th drove his team to victory then this QB would have been credited for a game-winner but the QB whose defense allows an opposing team to tie the score but then leads a game-winning drive is given NO CREDIT by the author. This is wrong. Maybe this is why he only credits Bledsoe for 19 game-winners when in fact he has 24 since ’96. CBS and Fox used trailing entering the 4th, as well as a tie score entering the 4th, when crediting Bledsoe for his 32 game-winners on several braodcasts this past season.

2) While this article rightly compares the number of game winning drives to the number of times a QB had such an opportunity, it fails to give any weight to the quality of teams a QB has played on. For example, there is no comparing the team Montana had in the 1980s to the team Bledsoe had this year yet Drew still managed to lead five 4th Q/OT game winners. (Before some of you get worked up, Joe Montana is the best QB in history, better than Bledsoe.)

3) It also punishes QBs for trailing by a large margin in the 4th, getting the score close, but still losing. For example, on 11/2/97 the Pats played the Vikings and were down 16-3 (13 points) to start the 4th. The author uses an 8 point deficit in his study as a cap, so any deficit of 9 or more points is not used in his analysis. Therefore, with this 13 point deficit, the author does not consider this to be a winnable game and would not include it in his study. But alas, Bledsoe heroically leads the Pats to 15 4th Q points, bringing the game on several occasions to less than an 8 point deficit for the Pats. By directing his team to this amount of points during the 4th, suddenly the author now considers this a winnable game for Bledsoe. In the end, the Pats’ D gave up a late 28 yard TD that lost the Pats the game. If Bledsoe led his team to no points in the 4th, the author would not have used this against Drew. But since Bledsoe was successful in scoring 15 points in the 4th (enough at the beginning of the quarter to win the game), the author now punishes Bledsoe for not winning the game when in truth he is the one who made it close. This is unfair.

I’m glad someone is looking at comebacks. With all the chances Bledsoe (and others) have had, it really shows the quality (or lack thereof) of teams that many QBs have had to endure, and I think leading a game winning drive is a significant accomplishment. This article, while fascinating and detailed in some areas, leaves a lot to be desired and cannot and should not be considered a thorough analysis of 4th Q game-winning drives when so much is left unanalyzed.

And now for the games in Bledsoe’s career in which he’s led game winning drives:

1993 - Mia, Cle (2)
1994 - GB, Min, Ind (3)
1995 - Cle, NYJ, Buf (3)
1996 - Jax, Buf, NYJ, NYG (4)
1997 - NYJ (1)
1998 - Ten, NO, Mia, Buf (4)
1999 - NYJ, Ind (2)
2000 - Buf, Ind, Cin (3)
2002 - Min, Chi, Hou, SD (4)
2003 - Cin (1)
2005 - SD, SF, NYG, KC, CAR (5)

http://nflhistory.net/linescores/index.asp (http://nflhistory.net/linescores/index.asp)(93-99)
http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/results.nsf (http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/results.nsf) (00-05)

[KingTuna]

I was reminded of this a few months back when SportsCenter ran a special on SuperBowl chokes, and one of those profiled was Max Lane, who was absoltuely man-handled in the second half by Reggie White.

Ahh yeah, that was a HORROR show for Max Lane. Reggie White took him to school in that superbowl and unfortunatley opened the flood gates to sack Bledsoe.

Max Lane! UUGGGHHHH

[rcaldw]

Does the definition of "pretty damn good" or "pretty good" = ZERO combined Pro Bowls, 'cause that's exactly what the two linemen you mentioned have between them.

Of all the guys that have protected Bledsoe in NE, we have come up with ONE pro bowler (Armstrong) and two average, maybe pretty good, guys in Woody who started as a ROOKIE in '99 (see Pettiti) protecting Bledsoe and Andruzzi (00) who protected Bledsoe for 15 games in his career. Generally, linemen aren't all-world in their first year or two in the league. Woody and Andruzzi were young-uns when Bledsoe was in NE. They had their moments, and Woody ended up commanding a decent salary from the Lions. But over the course of 8 years and 128 games, this is the o-line you're giving me? :confused:

How many Pro Bowls did the Cowboys offensive linemen, who played in the 90's have before Irvin, Aikman and Smith showed up?

I loved that offensive line, but it also got some hype due to the original triplets. Don't misunderstand, they were outstanding, but Aikman has a scarred up chin for a reason.

[itoldyouSOE]

Ahh yeah, that was a HORROR show for Max Lane. Reggie White took him to school in that superbowl and unfortunatley opened the flood gates to sack Bledsoe.

Max Lane! UUGGGHHHH

Yes, it was painful for me to write. "Porus" is how NFL films described the Patriots o-line that year in the SB36 recap. In deed it was, despite what some on here would lead you to believe.

[rcaldw]

Yes, it was painful for me to write. "Porus" is how NFL films described the Patriots o-line that year in the SB36 recap. In deed it was, despite what some on here would lead you to believe.

The Patriots OL was terrible, the Bills OL was terrible, the Cowboys OL was terrible. Do you ever think that Bledsoe gets sacked a ton because he is immobile and holds the ball too long?

[itoldyouSOE]

The Patriots OL was terrible, the Bills OL was terrible, the Cowboys OL was terrible. Do you ever think that Bledsoe gets sacked a ton because he is immobile and holds the ball too long?

Well Pats fans and media knew so in the 90s, Bills fans knew so in 2002 (and still do!), and we do now, which is why we signed a couple guys in the offseason (and NOT a new QB!). Are you making the argument that these lines were anything more than average or even terrible at times. You won't find one Bills' fan who has been happy with their o-line for the better part of this decade. Along with Houston, it ranks as one of the WORST in the NFL!

Is Bledsoe immobile? Yes, but not as slow as you might think. Is he a pure pocket passer who tries to hang in there waiting for a receiver to get open and take a sack as a result? Sometimes. But as we saw this year (especially that game v. NYG where he was sacked even before he touched the ball), the o-line is one of our weakest areas, the Bills' o-line was weak and still is, and the Pats o-line was known for its holes in the 90s. So no, I'm not willing to say that the o-lines were good and that Bledsoe just made them look bad. Look at how well he performed with an average AT BEST o-line this season before Flo went down. He was a world-beater! With an average o-line!

Does Bledsoe have fault in some of this? Sure. But terrible o-lines get most of it. (The fact that our running game struggled this year was also due in part to our injured, old, and yet inexperienced o-line)

[rcaldw]

Well Pats fans and media knew so in the 90s, Bills fans knew so in 2002 (and still do!), and we do now, which is why we signed a couple guys in the offseason (and NOT a new QB!). Are you making the argument that these lines were anything more than average or even terrible at times. You won't find one Bills' fan who has been happy with their o-line for the better part of this decade. Along with Houston, it ranks as one of the WORST in the NFL!

Is Bledsoe immobile? Yes, but not as slow as you might think. Is he a pure pocket passer who tries to hang in there waiting for a receiver to get open and take a sack as a result? Sometimes. But as we saw this year (especially that game v. NYG where he was sacked even before he touched the ball), the o-line is one of our weakest areas, the Bills' o-line was weak and still is, and the Pats o-line was known for its holes in the 90s. So no, I'm not willing to say that the o-lines were good and that Bledsoe just made them look bad. Look at how well he performed with an average AT BEST o-line this season before Flo went down. He was a world-beater! With an average o-line!

Does Bledsoe have fault in some of this? Sure. But terrible o-lines get most of it. (The fact that our running game struggled this year was also due in part to our injured, old, and yet inexperienced o-line)


Well, the one year that you note, the Patriots went to the Super Bowl, must not have been too bad.

[BlueWave]

SUPER BOWL WINS: BRADY (3) - BLEDSOE (0)

I can't stand Tom Brady, but I get weary of people not getting the fact that Football isn't baseball, and the only stat that matters in the end is WINNING.

Were they the only two men on the field. This isn't tennis. Does that mean Marino was no good. Fouts was not a good QB.

[BlueWave]

To quote a phrase so often uttered by you: Uh, no, I never said that.

Never said Bledsoe did not have talented teammates so I'm not sure why you're saying I did. To be sure, the ones you list, among others, were key reasons for the Pats success, and a reason Bledsoe was able to lead the Pats to the playoffs in 4 of 8 seasons. Over nearly a decade, a player is bound to play with some other equally great players, so I'm not quite sure what your point is here. But anyway ...

Of all the things you focus on in my original post (I think I had 5 points, you focused on Bruce Armstrong), you still cannot refute the stats. The stats prove that, despite all these great players the Pats had that you are so enamoured with and 2 hall of fame coaches, the running games and defenses were nothing more than average to near worst in the league in Bledsoe's 8 seasons in NE.

So yeah, the stats back me up, Bledsoe has played on some bad, bad teams during his career with some horrible o-lines, save for Bruce Armstrong of course. He played with some good to great players and was the reason that many of these players (Glenn, Coates, Peerless Price, Eric Moulds) had great or career seasons with him.

This guy amazes me. One of the best posters on the board.

[Hostile]

This guy amazes me. One of the best posters on the board.:eek:

I hope that was sarcasm.

[rcaldw]

Were they the only two men on the field. This isn't tennis. Does that mean Marino was no good. Fouts was not a good QB.

You completely missed the point of my post. The goal of the QB of a football team is to move the offense, move the ball down the field and put it into the endzone, WITHOUT turning the ball over and taking unnecessary sacks. It also means being willing to place your personal statistics aside and if the best thing for the football team is running the ball, then hand it off gladly. This helps win games too, by eating up the clock and making the other team maximize their offensive possessions.

In the end WINNING is the goal, not how many yards you threw for, not how many TD passes you got, not how many records you hold. WINNING is the measure of QB's.

It isn't a 1 man team, or a 1 man game, which is why the QB position can't be measured merely by numbers.

Do I think Marino or Fouts were not good QB's? Of course not. But I would take Aikman before either of them. I know that sounds like blasphemy to some, so be it, but I personally think that Marino (I can't speak as much to Fouts) was a selfish player who WANTED a throw, throw, throw offense. He wanted his numbers. He got his numbers. But he got no Super Bowl wins either.

Aikman, just this week or last, was interviewed about the hall of fame, and he said it better than I can. He said EVERYONE says they just want to win (talking about QB's), but 99% of them mean, "as long as I can also get my numbers."

He said he knows he could have put up numbers with any of them, but he wanted to win more and saw that as his only goal, which is why he never complained publicly or privately for more throwing attempts.

Baseball is a stats sport, because other than being willing to lay down a bunt, or move a runner along by hitting behind him, it is just YOU AND THE PITCHER. (I'm obviously looking at it from a hitter's perspective) The numbers tell you all you need to know IN MOST CASES about the player's performance.

But football is different. THAT was my point. I think Brady has done a better job than Bledsoe of maximizing his offense without throwing it to the other team or taking drive killing sacks, which is a big part of why he has 3 Super Bowl rings. THAT AND A GREAT KICKER ;)

[itoldyouSOE]

:eek:

I hope that was sarcasm.

Imagine that. Someone who disagrees with you getting props from a respected poster.

I use evidence to back up my claims. I'm not talking out my rear like some people who love to hear themselves type, and tell others they have an agenda and feign that they themselves do not.

[JMead]

Imagine that. Someone who disagrees with you getting props from a respected poster.

I use evidence to back up my claims. I'm not talking out my rear like some people who love to hear themselves type, and tell others they have an agenda and feign that they themselves do not.
Watch out now. Hate to see another poster with common sense disappear for being over zealous.... Errr I mean using facts.

[Hostile]

Imagine that. Someone who disagrees with you getting props from a respected poster.

I use evidence to back up my claims. I'm not talking out my rear like some people who love to hear themselves type, and tell others they have an agenda and feign that they themselves do not.His taste must all be in his mouth.

Either that or he didn't bother to read the whole "name one OL who played with Bledsoe that you'd take on your team" thing.

I'm not even a Patriots fan and I knew about Armstrong.

But by all means, pat yourself on the back. It's a hell of a compliment.

[Hostile]

Watch out now. Hate to see another poster with common sense disappear for being over zealous.... Errr I mean using facts.You might want to know what you're talking about before you open your festering gob. Free advice.

[JMead]

You might want to know what you're talking about before you open your festering gob. Free advice.

Insulting now are we? Grow up.

[5Stars]

Insulting now are we? Grow up.

This is getting really old now!

Bledsoe is a good QB! Isn't that enough for you? Why do you guys come here trying to cram him down everones throat?

This is a DALLAS COWBOY FORUM! This is not a DREW BLEDSOE FORUM!

If you are insulted by a message board, then maybe you need to "grow up"?

:cool:

:star:

[Hostile]

Insulting now are we? Grow up.It was meant as advice not an insult. Not shocked you took it as one.

[JMead]

It was meant as advice not an insult. Not shocked you took it as one.
Yea right. Like any sane person will believe that? You insulted me and I called you on it. You are digging yourself into a hole you will never crawl out of ( assuming you ever left ).

[Hostile]

Yea right. Like any sane person will believe that? You insulted me and I called you on it. You are digging yourself into a hole you will never crawl out of ( assuming you ever left ).LOL

Okay, whatever. I say that all the time. Even about myself.

[JMead]

LOL

Okay, whatever. I say that all the time. Even about myself.

:pc: :rake:

[jimmy40]

Does the definition of "pretty damn good" or "pretty good" = ZERO combined Pro Bowls, 'cause that's exactly what the two linemen you mentioned have between them.

Of all the guys that have protected Bledsoe in NE, we have come up with ONE pro bowler (Armstrong) and two average, maybe pretty good, guys in Woody who started as a ROOKIE in '99 (see Pettiti) protecting Bledsoe and Andruzzi (00) who protected Bledsoe for 15 games in his career. Generally, linemen aren't all-world in their first year or two in the league. Woody and Andruzzi were young-uns when Bledsoe was in NE. They had their moments, and Woody ended up commanding a decent salary from the Lions. But over the course of 8 years and 128 games, this is the o-line you're giving me? :confused:
Nothing changes the fact that the best thing to happen to the Patriots was Drew what's his excuse this year Bledsoe getting hurt and getting a winner put in at QB.

[rcaldw]

Nothing changes the fact that the best thing to happen to the Patriots was Drew what's his excuse this year Bledsoe getting hurt and getting a winner put in at QB.

Thats a fact Jimmy. I personally can't wait until we get our own home grown QB and stop with the rent a QB approach. If it isn't Henson or Romo, then I really hope Dallas goes and gets Brady Quinn next year.

I don't dislike Bledsoe, and I think he is an above average QB even with his mobility issues, but I can't believe the folks who actually think he is a top 5 kind of guy. I'm sorry, it just isn't the case.

[BeWare94]

I'm pretty sure that Dan Marino is in the top five. Hell, I think he might still be number one.

[jimmy40]

Thats a fact Jimmy. I personally can't wait until we get our own home grown QB and stop with the rent a QB approach. If it isn't Henson or Romo, then I really hope Dallas goes and gets Brady Quinn next year.

I don't dislike Bledsoe, and I think he is an above average QB even with his mobility issues, but I can't believe the folks who actually think he is a top 5 kind of guy. I'm sorry, it just isn't the case. I just can't stand these so called Cowboys fans that would be Washington fans if Bledsoe was traded there tomorrow.

[Hostile]

I just can't stand these so called Cowboys fans that would be Washington fans if Bledsoe was traded there tomorrow.:hammer:

I have 3 times offered to buy them a Bledsoe themed domain. No takers. They just want to annoy us here.

[big dog cowboy]

I just can't stand these so called Cowboys fans that would be Washington fans if Bledsoe was traded there tomorrow.
That is gonna leave a mark.

[JMead]

That is gonna leave a mark.

Maybe if it were true.

I guess its unheard of that a Cowboys can like Drew Bledsoe?

Sounds like some people are in denial.

[Hostile]

Maybe if it were true.

I guess its unheard of that a Cowboys can like Drew Bledsoe?

Sounds like some people are in denial.Read it again, that isn't what he said at all.

It isn't that hard.

[playit12]

I've seen this article before. Fascinating and glad someone is looking into it. But it is filled with asteriks.

Drew Bledsoe has had 24 game-winning drives in the 4th Q/OT since 1996, not 19 as this article suggests. (See end of message for links that prove this).

This alone leads me to question the validity of the analysis, one in which the author himself warns about how he used t-tests and ANOVAs.


I don't have time to catch up on the rest of this thread, but as to the total numbers, the author said that he was only able to measure from 1996 to the present day. That accounts for the difference in numbers. The use of that data set is because it's all that is available to the public.

[Cowboy Bebop]

I am kind of new to these forums, so I may be completely off base with this, but I can live with that. I do not really understand why when a cowboy fan posts on these forums a passionate, yet unpopular opinion about a player, so many of you crap all over and tell them to stop using this board. I can understand some arguments getting tired, but this is an internet forum. Isn't the point to foster discussion, debate, and even arguments? We are all Cowboy fans, we all want to see them do well.

I don't know. I just don't understand why you would want everyone on the boards to have uniform opinions on all things Cowboys. The greater the disparity in opinions, the greater the entertainment. This being said, I imagine in one weeks time I will hear something so retarded I am joining you in your campaign to scare people away.