TO/Witten/Glenn vs. Irvin/Harper/Novacek?

[ninja]

Talent-wise how do you think these two groups compare? Which would you rather have?

[theogt]

This may be the unpopular pick but I'm going with TO/Witten/Glenn.

[jksmith269]

Talent-wise how do you think these two groups compare? Which would you rather have?
If Troy was the QB the group we have now If I could choose and mix and match I'd take T.O. and M.I....... I don't think witten is any better than Jay so either would do just fine

[Chief]

I think the trio of Owens/Witten/Glenn has more talent. Parcells is always talking about Terry's talent, and we know how gifted Owens and Witten are.

But I would rather have Irvin/Novacek/Harper because of Irvin's intangibles.

[Muhast]

personally i like Witten a lot....

I'd prob say

Irvin vs. T.O is comparable
Glenn vs. Harper i'll take glenn
Witten vs. Novacek i'll take witten..

so our trio now

[stealth]

irvin had way better hands than TO
glenn is much better than alvin harper
novecek and witten are a push

I call the whole thing a push

[tomson75]

This may be the unpopular pick but I'm going with TO/Witten/Glenn.

I second.

I'm not sure this would be the unpopular pick based on talent and potential.

[theogt]

I second.

I'm not sure this would be the unpopular pick based on talent and potential.I think its a pretty easy pick talent-wise, but I was going with unpopular re: "who would you rather have?"

[tomson75]

I think its a pretty easy pick talent-wise, but I was going with unpopular re: "who would you rather have?"


True. There is a major sentiment factor with Irvin/Harper/Novachek. Good times there.

[Boyzmamacita]

TO = Irvin
Glenn > Harper
Witten < Novacek

Since Witten has the potential to do just as well, if not better, than Novacek, the modern day trio gets the nod, but we've go to give props to the Super Bowl winning trio. This group hasn't done it yet.

[Frozen700]

the 3 we got now...by far..not taking taking anything away from the other 3 tho

[jrumann59]

MI/AH/JN......Because glenn is fragile

[tomson75]

the 3 we got now...by far..not taking taking anything away from the other 3 tho


:welcome:

[dragon_mikal]

Bah.

Galloway/Ismail/LaFluer

Duh.

[Frozen700]

:welcome:

thanks.... i been a cowboys fan for years..n use to just read sum stuff on the furom....but id love to get in the action as well..so i signed up today :)

[CaptainMorgan]

Id take the old school boys and never look back.

How could anyone call Irvin and TO a push? Irvin was an emotional leader of this team, TO for all the talent he posseses is a detractor from chemistry. Yeah Witten is good but Novacek was always there on 3rd and 6 or when we needed a big catch, I love Jason but I cant say the same thing for him.

I'll agree with Glenn over Harper but as a group, I'll take what worked.

[REDVOLUTION]

Talent-wise how do you think these two groups compare? Which would you rather have?

Why dont you just make it a four-fer..... Bledsoe/Aikman.... This 4-pc unit is the closest thing we have had to that combo....

[Clove]

T.O. has the speed and the break away ability.
Irvin could catch anything, and was a route running genius. I say *equal*

Glenn is a better receiver by far over Alvin Harper. I say *Glenn*

Witten is a nice solid strongish TE.
Jay Nov could get open whenever he wanted to. I say *Jay Novacek

Terence Newman700
Junior Member


Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3 :welcome:

[Dale]

Judging player-by-player talent wise, I'd take the current trio. I personally think Witten will go down as the best tight end in Cowboys history, and Glenn is a better and more consistent contributor than Harper. TO and Irvin are a bit of a wash; TO better in some ways, Irvin in others. It's hard to argue with TO's stats, though.

But, talent alone doesn't win. Will this trio work as well together as Irvin, Harper and Novacek did? Who knows if TO and Glenn will "really" provide a good duo?

And, as the first poster said, I'd much rather have Troy -- not to mention that offensive line!!! -- throwing to this group.

[Dale]

Id take the old school boys and never look back.

How could anyone call Irvin and TO a push? Irvin was an emotional leader of this team, TO for all the talent he posseses is a detractor from chemistry. Yeah Witten is good but Novacek was always there on 3rd and 6 or when we needed a big catch, I love Jason but I cant say the same thing for him.

I'll agree with Glenn over Harper but as a group, I'll take what worked.

That's why I feel this current group is better "talent wise," but not necessarily in terms of production. Those guys back then complemented each other so well. Not to mention the obvious chemsitry.

TO and Glenn look good on paper. Will it on Sundays? We don't know yet.

[big dog cowboy]

TO/Witten/Glenn vs. Irvin/Harper/Novachek? Talent-wise how do you think these two groups compare? Which would you rather have?
Great question. If I had to pick I go with the proven trio who won super bowls.

TO/Witten/Glenn = probably more talent

Irvin/Harper/Novachek = lots of hardware, can't argue against that

[JohnsKey19]

It wouldn't be fair to the rest of the league if we had the current group of WR/TE and the dominant O-Line of the early 90s.....

[Boyzmamacita]

Id take the old school boys and never look back.

How could anyone call Irvin and TO a push? Irvin was an emotional leader of this team, TO for all the talent he posseses is a detractor from chemistry. Yeah Witten is good but Novacek was always there on 3rd and 6 or when we needed a big catch, I love Jason but I cant say the same thing for him.

I'll agree with Glenn over Harper but as a group, I'll take what worked.

The old school guys did have Troy and the best O line in team history (IMO). I believe Bledsoe would be a perennial Pro Bowler even at this stage in his career with that offensive line. That brings us to the key ingredient for this season: the O line. What we saw against Minnesota doesn't make us feel too good, but if and when this unit gels, they might surprise us. Hopefully, they'll find a way to win anyhow in the early going.

[Boyzmamacita]

It wouldn't be fair to the rest of the league if we had the current group of WR/TE and the dominant O-Line of the early 90s.....

It wasn't fair to the rest of the league back then, either.;)

[Redball Express]

And I'll add another trio for consideration...

Tony Hill, Drew Pearson and Doug Cosbie with Preston Pearson coming out of the backfield, too.

That was a devastating set of receivers.

I think the common denominator with all three groups is the QB.

With our present WR's..it's Bledsoe.

With the 90's receivers it was Aikman.

With the 70's + early 80's receivers it was Staubach and then Danny White.

The thing is the QB has to be the key.

I like our WR's, but they really haven't played in the clutch game in and game out like any of the other receiver/QB combos in the past.

Therefore, I'd have to go with the 70's crew of Staubach with the 2 Pearsons and Hill and Cosbie as our best receivers ever.

Those guys played in like 5-6 NFC Championship games and several winning SB's. They stood the test of time. Even when Staubach retired, White did well for a few years with them, too.

Over to you.

[proline]

Can't compare those groups and leave the QBs out of it. Talent-wise, I'd give TO/Glenn/Witten the edge, but throw in the QB's and I think the Aikman-led boys are the clear winners.

[slick325]

This is a good topic. I believe that the current group is better. Not by much but better nontheless. Mostly because of the talent gap between Glenn and Harper.

Many posters have made good arguments for each group and even threw in Troy vs. Drew. However, what I think is being overlooked is the play-caller. With Norv Turner, either trio would be successful. Depending on which Coach Parcells shows up that day, (prehistoric offense Bill who runs on first down 90% of the time and runs the ball on 1st, 2nd and 3rd down no matter down and distance or the Parcells that let Bledsoe fling the rock around in New England to the tune of 4000 yds.) neither trio would be any good.

Norv Turner with T.O., Glenn and Witten would be a sight to see. Julius and Bledsoe would be better players as well. No knock on Coach Parcells but he is not going to set the world on fire with his innovative offensive plays.

[Bob Sacamano]

TO = Irvin
Glenn > Harper
Witten < Novacek

Since Witten has the potential to do just as well, if not better, than Novacek, the modern day trio gets the nod, but we've go to give props to the Super Bowl winning trio. This group hasn't done it yet.

Witten has done better in one season, 2 in fact, than Jay ever did in 2 seasons, Witten>Novacek

[Shaun]

A guy like Michael Irvin brings so many intangibles to the equation that I take the group from the 90's. Talent-wise, Owens and Irvin is probably a push, and Glenn and Witten are more talented then the previous group, but football is the ultimate team game. And, the MI, AH, and JN, proved they can win better than almost anyone in history.

[CaptainMorgan]

Witten has done better in one season, 2 in fact, than Jay ever did in 2 seasons, Witten>Novacek

Witten isnt half the clutch reciever Novacek was even on his best day.

[Bob Sacamano]

Witten isnt half the clutch reciever Novacek was even on his best day.

clutch? I'll take the bigger offensive weapon

[CaptainMorgan]

clutch? I'll take the bigger offensive weapon

you would?

I'll take the guy that gets it done when it counts the most. Witten inside the 20 is nowhere to be found. Novacek was easy to find, standing in the endzone with the ball.

[ghst187]

TO and Irvin...TO much better after the catch, Irvin much better before and during...draw
Glenn is better than Harper. Glenn is good enough to be a #1, Harper never was.
Witten is better than Novacek. Jay was a better blocker but Witten is bigger, better athlete, and has better hands. I think Witten has more natural talent but Jay was more wiley. Heck, Witten has played with some crummy QBs and has only been in the league for few years yet has already broken most of Jay's records. Jay was often a forgotten man by the defense, and usually had plenty of room to find a hole in the D. Witten gets a lot of attention but yet still no one can cover him. I have to give a slight edge to Witten.
I have to go with the current trio of TO/TG/Witten.

But if you compare: TO/TG/Witten/JJ/MBIII vs Irvin/Harper/Novacek/Emmitt, then i'd go with the latter.

[tomson75]

you would?

I'll take the guy that gets it done when it counts the most. Witten inside the 20 is nowhere to be found. Novacek was easy to find, standing in the endzone with the ball.

Hmmm. Jay Novaceks best "clutch" year was 1992, with 6 TD's.


How many TD's did Witten have in each of the last two years? Oh yeah...6. And more yards to boot. Seems like Witten is not entirely invisible after all.

[CaptainMorgan]

Hmmm. Jay Novaceks best "clutch" year was 1992, with 6 TD's.


How many TD's did Witten have in each of the last two years? Oh yeah...6. And more yards to boot. Seems like Witten is not entirely invisible after all.

Actually Jay's best clutch year was 95 but nice try.

Clutch isnt just TD catches. Novacek was a monster on 3rd down routes.

Also, it was Emmitt's ball inside the 10 countless times which took alot of opportunity away from Novacek in the redzone.

[DallasDW00ds0n]

we havent even seen the trio of TO/Witten/Glenn

[CaptainMorgan]

we havent even seen the trio of TO/Witten/Glenn

oops. Youve destroyed so many fantasies with those words.

[tomson75]

Actually Jay's best clutch year was 95 but nice try.

Clutch isnt just TD catches. Novacek was a monster on 3rd down routes.

Also, it was Emmitt's ball inside the 10 countless times which took alot of opportunity away from Novacek in the redzone.


you got me on '95. that was a typo.

I'll forgo arguing whether or not Witten is as clutch as Novacek. Its just not something that can be measured. I think older fans may be a little bais towards the ealry 90's, but with good reason. Wait a few years, and hopefully we will all be looking back at Witten with the same bais and fondness.

[REDVOLUTION]

you would?

I'll take the guy that gets it done when it counts the most. Witten inside the 20 is nowhere to be found. Novacek was easy to find, standing in the endzone with the ball.

Yeah you really cant argue that Novacek was clutch... for sure!!!

We are lucky to have Witten.... a different kind of TE.

[DLCassidy]

If this team wins a SB maybe someone will really care about the comparison...until then.....

[Danny White]

Am I the only one annoyed when they see "Novacheck"?

It's almost as bad as "Michael Irving".

[neosapien23]

Irvin, Harper, Aikman, and Novajeck were immensely aided by one of the best Olines ever in the NFL. If Drew Bledsoe had that offensive line, I think he would have won a couple of superbowls with Key, Glenn, and Witten. He wouldn't have even needed TO. BP really needs to replenish the Oline with some quality picks.

[the kid 05]

imagine if we had Terrell/Glenn/witten on that early 90's teams...wow there was no push off rule back then...oh man

[SuspectCorner]

Actually Jay's best clutch year was 95 but nice try.

Clutch isnt just TD catches. Novacek was a monster on 3rd down routes.

Also, it was Emmitt's ball inside the 10 countless times which took alot of opportunity away from Novacek in the redzone.
exactly.

i can't tell ya how many times i saw irvin and novacek tackled inside the 10 and then the team would just power it in from there with the run game. but i know it was a bunch (witness all those Smith TDs year after year).

[mmohican29]

MI IMO is a wayyyyyy better receiver than even experts give him credit for, better than T.O. by far. Not as explosive, but way more consistent and clutch and better hands generally.

Novacek/Witten. I'm going to go with Jay. Jason seems to disappear in crunch time alot. Jay was always open. Jay is/was also more big play and elusive in the open field. Jason's great tho, and is getting better. Jason might be a HOF player, Novacek came on too late in his career.

Glenn is better than Harper, but Harper was almost a 1b type receiver vs a true number 2 guy like Terry. Terry is fabulous, but too fragile to be a 1. Harper was having a great career til the trainer in tampa bay cut part of his finger off taping his hand.

[md2005]

I will go with the group that has 6 Super Bowl rings.

[Hostile]

I will go with the group that has 6 Super Bowl rings.Try eight.

Irvin has 3.

Novacek has 3.

Harper has 2.

[Trip]

Therefore, I'd have to go with the 70's crew of Staubach with the 2 Pearsons and Hill and Cosbie as our best receivers ever.



Staubach never played much with Doug Cosbie. He completed about 5-10 passes to him early in Cosbie's career, that's it.

Staubach retired in '79, Cosbie became good in '82.

Preston Pearson was done in '80 so he never saw much time with Cosbie either.

They crossed paths but you can't really say Staubach, Hill, Cosbie and the 2 Pearsons because they weren't a group.

Staubach, Hill, D.Pearson, P.Pearson, DuPree

White, Hill, D.Pearson, Cosbie, Springs

[cowboygolfer]

This is a topic that really can't be argued, there has not been a TO/Glenn/Witten trio yet.

On the topic of Witten vs. Novacek, those who are picking Witten based on his statistics are probably too young to have watched Novacek play much.

Witten is a threat on the field and that is huge in todays NFL, Novacek may ahve been the most dangerous 3rd down receiver I ever saw play. I heard Aikman interviewed about how he found Novacek in the crowd. Aikman's answer was "I don't I throw it where he is supposed to be, Jay is always there."

No greater compliment could be made to a TE from that era, his job was not to dominate games it was to block and get open on 3rd down. He did his job.

I hope Witten becomes the greatest TE in the histoy of the Cowboys, he ain't there yet.

[jazzcat22]

just a comparison on these..or....Troy and his Ol vs. Drew and his OL..that will play a big factor for production comparison.

[joseephuss]

Id take the old school boys and never look back.

How could anyone call Irvin and TO a push? Irvin was an emotional leader of this team, TO for all the talent he posseses is a detractor from chemistry. Yeah Witten is good but Novacek was always there on 3rd and 6 or when we needed a big catch, I love Jason but I cant say the same thing for him.

I'll agree with Glenn over Harper but as a group, I'll take what worked.

Aikman often looked for Jay in those types of situations. Bledsoe does not look for Witten.

[CaptainMorgan]

Aikman often looked for Jay in those types of situations. Bledsoe does not look for Witten.

Is that Wittens fault or Bledsoe's?

Its not like Troy didnt have other weapons at his disposal, just as Bledsoe does.

[DallasDomination]

Our trio now is better.

[joseephuss]

Is that Wittens fault or Bledsoe's?

Its not like Troy didnt have other weapons at his disposal, just as Bledsoe does.

The scheme and Bledsoe's. There were many posts on the game day threads where someone would say that Witten was open and Drew never saw him.

Aikman used Irvin and Novacek as his 1 and 2 options. On third down, he looked at Jay as his 1st option. I don't see Bledsoe using Witten as his 1st option and many times it didn't look like he was the #2. Glenn was the 1st and Key was the 2nd last season.

I think Novacek is better than Witten and that is only because Jason hasn't been around long enough yet.

[TruBlueCowboy]

Witten and Glenn over Novacek and Harper. Glenn is by far a better receiver than Harper. Just like Harper, he'll never be a true #1, but he'll at least give it the ol' college try like Rocket Ismail did that one year. Witten and Novacek, Witten is bigger, always seem to get some yards after the catch, always falling forward. Not his fault he doesn't have Aikman throwing him the ball.

Michael Irvin over TO anyday of the week. Maybe I'd think differently if we had TO in his prime, but Irvin is a better team player. They're similar receivers. Both are used to being a focus point of the offense and beating two men, Irvin just knows how to get along with his quarterback.

[CoCo]

In my opinion...

Though talent is certainly a major factor in creating a winner it does not by itself determine SB winners in my opinion.

There is the "it" factor and though on paper I would give a slight talent edge to TO/Glenn & Witten vs Irvin/Harper & Jay I would choose the latter group if going to war today simply because they proved their ability to come through under pressure and in the clutch. They didn't come close. They made it all the way - three times.

Maybe TO/Glenn & Witten have that same "it" but its speculation for now and the talent balance is too close to pick against the 3 X champs.

But if you gave me a chance to trade out Harper for Glenn, despite Harpers 2 rings... IN A HEARTBEAT!! To me Harper still rode the coattails of that team more than he pulled his weight.

[joseephuss]

In my opinion...

Though talent is certainly a major factor in creating a winner it does not by itself determine SB winners in my opinion.

There is the "it" factor and though on paper I would give a slight talent edge to TO/Glenn & Witten vs Irvin/Harper & Jay I would choose the latter group if going to war today simply because they proved their ability to come through under pressure and in the clutch. They didn't come close. They made it all the way - three times.

Maybe TO/Glenn & Witten have that same "it" but its speculation for now and the talent balance is too close to pick against the 3 X champs.

But if you gave me a chance to trade out Harper for Glenn, despite Harpers 2 rings... IN A HEARTBEAT!! To me Harper still rode the coattails of that team more than he pulled his weight.

At times he very much looked like he rode on the coat tails. He disappeared in the 1994 NFC championship game. A non-factor. He did have his moments in the post season, so he wasn't completely worthless. A good way to evaluate Harper is to look at the Cowboys' SB 30 win. They did it with Kevin Williams as the #2 receiver. It really shows how good Irvin and Novacek with Aikman throwing the ball really were. They were able to carry a guy that was not a good receiving threat. Glenn would have fit very well in that system.