What was our problem?

[CrazyCowboy]

San Francisco 49ers
Rookie OLB Manny Lawson shows good explosion off the ball and is aggressive in run support. He had two sacks in Week 2. On one of them, he beat Pro Bowl tackle Orlando Pace off the edge.

What was we thinking when we passed on this guy?

Is have two DeMarcus Ware's a bad thing? :bang2:

[AtlCB]

San Francisco 49ers
Rookie OLB Manny Lawson shows good explosion off the ball and is aggressive in run support. He had two sacks in Week 2. On one of them, he beat Pro Bowl tackle Orlando Pace off the edge.

What was we thinking when we passed on this guy?

Is have two DeMarcus Ware's a bad thing? :bang2:And where exactly would Manny Lawson play?

[ravidubey]

He wouldn't have started either with Ellis and Singleton in front of him. The 49ers have no such issues.

[austintodallas]

We made the right pick.

[Funxva]

We'll be fine. If we had gotten him, we wouldn't have any future starters at ILB, and also GE would eithe rbe backup and unhappy, or lawson wouldn't be starting anyhow.

[Champsheart]

San Francisco 49ers
Rookie OLB Manny Lawson shows good explosion off the ball and is aggressive in run support. He had two sacks in Week 2. On one of them, he beat Pro Bowl tackle Orlando Pace off the edge.

What was we thinking when we passed on this guy?

Is have two DeMarcus Ware's a bad thing? :bang2:

Greg Ellis seems to be doing just fine in that spot.

Ellis may just have more sacks, and I guarantee he is better against the run.

No complaining here.

[theogt]

Or better yet...Merriman and Lawson.

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!

[kTXe]

How many times have you started this identical thread? Good God, man.

[Doomsday101]

I see no problem. Dallas choose not to get Lawson. I have nothing aginst Lawson but bottom line is Dallas had no interest in him.

[theogt]

I see no problem. Dallas choose not to get Lawson. I have nothing aginst Lawson but bottom line is Dallas had no interest in him.That isn't exactly true.

[JackMagist]

Let's see...we have the Ellis / Moss debate (that one is kind of losing it's steam these days). We have the Ware / Merriman debate that we hear about ad nauseam. And now it looks like the Carpenter / Lawson debate will join the list.

Guys, we have the players we have. They were not bad choices (ok the jury is still out on Carp) and they seemed like the best choice to make at the time given our needs and the team’s situation at the time. Let’s live with it and move on.

[Stautner]

San Francisco 49ers
Rookie OLB Manny Lawson shows good explosion off the ball and is aggressive in run support. He had two sacks in Week 2. On one of them, he beat Pro Bowl tackle Orlando Pace off the edge.

What was we thinking when we passed on this guy?

Is have two DeMarcus Ware's a bad thing? :bang2:

You are way oversimplifying this.

First, as others have said, Lawson likely wouldn't even be starting here because of our depth at LB. The fact that SF is so weak and had so many holes is why he is getting a chance now.

Second, Lawson was considered a one dimensional player whereas Carpenter was considered a more versatile and better rounded LB. Apparently our coaches felt that was the kind of player we needed.

Third, Carpenter hasn't got his chance yet - reserve judgement until that happens. Players often don't get the chance right away but end up being very good once they do.

Fourth, even if over time it proves out that Lawson is a better NFL player, that's just the breaks. Drafting isn't an exact science and players drafted a heck of a lot higher than Carpenter or Lawson sometimes fall completely flat - probably more often than most fans realize. The only way to judge a team's drafting ability is by their overall record of success (admittedly pretty dismal for a number of years before Parcells came).

[aikemirv]

I thought the statement from the Cowboys was that they thought of Lawson as more of a developemental guy and Carpenter they thought could step right in.

They had no idea that Ellis would work out as well as he did and thought that Crapenter was more NFL game ready.

Hindsight is 20/20 and if they had known Ellis would have done so well we may not have chosen a LB at all!

[Doomsday101]

That isn't exactly true.

Enough so that we did not select him. Sorry I don't spend a lot of time thinking about who we could have gotten. I felt Dallas did a good job on draft day and feel the same today. There are many guys out there who not only did we pass on but many others passed on as well.

[Doomsday101]

Let's see...we have the Ellis / Moss debate (that one is kind of losing it's steam these days). We have the Ware / Merriman debate that we hear about ad nauseam. And now it looks like the Carpenter / Lawson debate will join the list.

Guys, we have the players we have. They were not bad choices (ok the jury is still out on Carp) and they seemed like the best choice to make at the time given our needs and the team’s situation at the time. Let’s live with it and move on.

Exactly.

[theogt]

Enough so that we did not select him. Sorry I don't spend a lot of time thinking about who we could have gotten. I felt Dallas did a good job on draft day and feel the same today. There are many guys out there who not only did we pass on but many others passed on as well.I'm not saying it was the wrong choice, but people have legitimate beef when Bill says he passed on Lawson because he thought Carpenter could contribute more now (while Lawson had the bigger upside). Since Carpenter isn't exactly contributing more now there's a reason to be upset.

I'm not, even though I was one of the loudest Lawson fans around. I'm pleased with Ellis and I love the depth that Carp gives us inside and out.

[Yakuza Rich]

San Francisco 49ers
Rookie OLB Manny Lawson shows good explosion off the ball and is aggressive in run support. He had two sacks in Week 2. On one of them, he beat Pro Bowl tackle Orlando Pace off the edge.

What was we thinking when we passed on this guy?

Is have two DeMarcus Ware's a bad thing? :bang2:

Way too early to tell.

The good news is that Greg Ellis has taken to the OLB role very well, so LOLB has become a non-issue for now.

It's understandable to be a little bit concerned about Carpenter. However, Ayodele hasn't been playing so hot and we may need the backups at ILB for him.

Most of this depends on how much Ellis has left in the tank. If he's got 3-4 years left, than not drafting Lawson (unless he becomes LT-esque) is pretty much a non-issue.


YAKUZA

[Doomsday101]

I'm not saying it was the wrong choice, but people have legitimate beef when Bill says he passed on Lawson because he thought Carpenter could contribute more now (while Lawson had the bigger upside). Since Carpenter isn't exactly contributing more now there's a reason to be upset.

I'm not, even though I was one of the loudest Lawson fans around. I'm pleased with Ellis and I love the depth that Carp gives us inside and out.

Some around here are always upset. The draft took place in April when there was a lot more doubt about how this LB core would play out but in the end I think it has worked out better than to be expected so much so that we are not forced to play a rookie from the get go. I still think Carpenter will develop into a quality player but because he may not play much this season does not mean that much in the big picture.

[CrazyCowboy]

It is what it is........a mistake Zoners!

BP history shows that he is loyal to his former players........I am sure he liked Carp alot because of his Dad.......this was a BP pick......and I am afraid it is going to be a mistake!

I agree with several of you who asked where would Lawson play at because of the stellar Ellis play? That is valid.......

I was a big Lawson fan and started several posts before the draft stating we should take this guy..... and I don't do this for a living!

So, what was our problem?

[aikemirv]

It is what it is........a mistake Zoners!

BP history shows that he is loyal to his former players........I am sure he liked Carp alot because of his Dad.......this was a BP pick......and I am afraid it is going to be a mistake!

I agree with several of you who asked where would Lawson play at because of the stellar Ellis play? That is valid.......

I was a big Lawson fan and started several posts before the draft stating we should take this guy..... and I don't do this for a living!

So, what was our problem?

So , you do not think any of the reasons for Carpenter over Lawson that have been given in this thread are valid?

[Kilyin]

How many times have you started this identical thread? Good God, man.

post pad. this guy is the king of one line responses too. No offense, of course.

[kmd24]

I'm not saying it was the wrong choice, but people have legitimate beef when Bill says he passed on Lawson because he thought Carpenter could contribute more now (while Lawson had the bigger upside). Since Carpenter isn't exactly contributing more now there's a reason to be upset.

I'm not, even though I was one of the loudest Lawson fans around. I'm pleased with Ellis and I love the depth that Carp gives us inside and out.


I think Carpenter might have been more ready to play OLB in the Cowboys 3-4, but you have to take into consideration that he has been moved inside and is learning a new position. Lawson is rushing the passer most downs, which isn't too different from his role at NCSU.

[Chocolate Lab]

I know Carpenter hasn't shown much yet, but I still think we're going to be glad we have a young ILB candidate to try when Ayodele proves to be less than what we're looking for at that position...

[Sam I Am]

Is have two DeMarcus Ware's a bad thing? :bang2:

Yes, I've brought this up already. DeMarcus Ware is a great pass rusher but his weakness is run stopping. While he has gotten a lot better, it is still the weakness in his game. Manny Lawson is even worse! He is smaller too and his only real skill at this point is his speed rush. Carpenter is a better pick because you do not want both of your outside linebackers to be weak against the run. Williams can help support Ware until he improves, but if you are weak on both sides you can be in a boat load of hurt. Moving Ellis (270lbs) to play outside helps, but what Ellis has turned into was not expected during the draft. On top of that Ellis is in his 9th season and Carpenter needs time to mature. Anyhow, Lawson isn't quite on par with Ware. Check out his draft profile.

Position: Defensive End School: North Carolina State
Status: Senior
Height: 6-6
Weight: 245
40-Yard Dash: 4.70 (EST)


Positives:
A quick pass rusher, Manny Lawson has great size and speed. A sack machine, he is physically gifted and does a great job of using that athleticism to blow through the line. Lawson has great experience and has faced very talented offensive lines, especially in the ACC. He has a very long reach and elusive, quick frame. Lawson also is very effective blocking kicks and punts.


Negatives: Lawson has definitely benefited from the outstanding play of opposite defensive end Mario Williams. Could add some bulk if he wishes to play DE in the NFL. Lawson needs to become smarter and learn not to primarily use his speed to beat defenders because offensive linemen at the next level are more athletic.



Overview:
Should consider the switch to outside linebacker in a 3-4 defense where he can rush the passer and use his athleticism to drop back in coverage. If he bulks up and adds muscle he could be very similar to a Demarcus Ware type player. Lawson has all the tools that can’t be taught, but needs to mature and become more polished to become a better pure player.

He is only 245lbs (Ware 257lbs) which is light when you have to shed blocks of offensive linemen and he isn't quite as quick at 4.7 40 vs Ware at 4.56. Carpenter is 255lbs and a 4.61 40 and a better run stopper.

[Stautner]

It is what it is........a mistake Zoners!

BP history shows that he is loyal to his former players........I am sure he liked Carp alot because of his Dad.......this was a BP pick......and I am afraid it is going to be a mistake!

I agree with several of you who asked where would Lawson play at because of the stellar Ellis play? That is valid.......

I was a big Lawson fan and started several posts before the draft stating we should take this guy..... and I don't do this for a living!

So, what was our problem?

Huh? This makes virtually no sense.

You admit that Lawson would be in the same position as Carpenter in Dallas - as a backup - yet you say it was a mistake to take Carpenter over Lawson.

Where is the logic and what evidence is there to support the conclusion that the choice was a mistake?

Surely you don't consider the fact that you supported Lawson out of college to be indisputable proof he is better ..... I hope you have something more concrete than that.

[superpunk]

http://go-tim.com/bongodogopt.gif

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/4642/384734298lke5.gif

[speedkilz88]

Yes, I've brought this up already. DeMarcus Ware is a great pass rusher but his weakness is run stopping. While he has gotten a lot better, it is still the weakness in his game. Manny Lawson is even worse! He is smaller too and his only real skill at this point is his speed rush. Carpenter is a better pick because you do not want both of your outside linebackers to be weak against the run. Williams can help support Ware until he improves, but if you are weak on both sides you can be in a boat load of hurt. Moving Ellis (270lbs) to play outside helps, but what Ellis has turned into was not expected during the draft. On top of that Ellis is in his 9th season and Carpenter needs time to mature. Anyhow, Lawson isn't quite on par with Ware. Check out his draft profile.

Ware has been fine at run stopping, his only problem has been identifying certain runs/reverses in time.(that happens)

Lawson has been doing well stopping the run also, any talk about his poor run stopping ability from scouting reports was when he was playing DE at 240 pounds. Its a lot easier to do it at OLB.

[trickblue]

He is only 245lbs (Ware 257lbs) which is light when you have to shed blocks of offensive linemen and he isn't quite as quick at 4.7 40 vs Ware at 4.56. Carpenter is 255lbs and a 4.61 40 and a better run stopper.
Everything you said was correct... and that is a VERY generous 245... I would say he plays more in the 230-235 range...

[Zimmy Lives]

It is what it is........a mistake Zoners!

BP history shows that he is loyal to his former players........I am sure he liked Carp alot because of his Dad.......this was a BP pick......and I am afraid it is going to be a mistake!

I agree with several of you who asked where would Lawson play at because of the stellar Ellis play? That is valid.......

I was a big Lawson fan and started several posts before the draft stating we should take this guy..... and I don't do this for a living!

So, what was our problem?

Your problem is you are unable to see the big picture. :laugh2:

Manny + bad team = playing time
Carpy + good team = backup

[speedkilz88]

Lawson ran in the 4.4s at the nfl combine, the 4.7 is garbage.

[Vintage]

It is what it is........a mistake Zoners!

BP history shows that he is loyal to his former players........I am sure he liked Carp alot because of his Dad.......this was a BP pick......and I am afraid it is going to be a mistake!

I agree with several of you who asked where would Lawson play at because of the stellar Ellis play? That is valid.......

I was a big Lawson fan and started several posts before the draft stating we should take this guy..... and I don't do this for a living!

So, what was our problem?

Right. We should have drafted Lawson. And then stashed him on the bench.

Because obviously, he would still be putting those numbers up on our bench, right?

You don't do this for a living. Exactly.

Parcells does.

And I am supposed to believe you over Parcells?

I'll get on that......as soon as I finish banging Alba this morning. Dumb broad wants seconds.

[Idgit]

It is what it is........a mistake Zoners!

BP history shows that he is loyal to his former players........I am sure he liked Carp alot because of his Dad.......this was a BP pick......and I am afraid it is going to be a mistake!

I agree with several of you who asked where would Lawson play at because of the stellar Ellis play? That is valid.......

I was a big Lawson fan and started several posts before the draft stating we should take this guy..... and I don't do this for a living!

So, what was our problem?

Crazy, Manny Lawson called. He said he doesn't love you any more, and that he's considering getting a restraining order.

He told me to tell you that it just wasn't meant to be, and you should forget about him; he hopes you'll find that special OLB someday--one that will make you as happy as you deserve to be--and live a happy life.

[kTXe]

I'll get on that......as soon as I finish banging Alba this morning. Dumb broad wants seconds.
:lmao:

[austintodallas]

I'll get on that......as soon as I finish banging Alba this morning. Dumb broad wants seconds.Nice. :laugh1:

[Vintage]

What can I say?

I aim to please.

[superpunk]

What can I say?

I aim to please.

I guess only Ms. Alba would know if you're actually successful.....

[Vintage]

I guess only Ms. Alba would know if you're actually successful.....

Sigh.

If only my fantasy would become reality.

[CrazyCowboy]

Yes, I've brought this up already. DeMarcus Ware is a great pass rusher but his weakness is run stopping. While he has gotten a lot better, it is still the weakness in his game. Manny Lawson is even worse! He is smaller too and his only real skill at this point is his speed rush. Carpenter is a better pick because you do not want both of your outside linebackers to be weak against the run. Williams can help support Ware until he improves, but if you are weak on both sides you can be in a boat load of hurt. Moving Ellis (270lbs) to play outside helps, but what Ellis has turned into was not expected during the draft. On top of that Ellis is in his 9th season and Carpenter needs time to mature. Anyhow, Lawson isn't quite on par with Ware. Check out his draft profile.

Position: Defensive End School: North Carolina State
Status: Senior
Height: 6-6
Weight: 245
40-Yard Dash: 4.70 (EST)


Positives:
A quick pass rusher, Manny Lawson has great size and speed. A sack machine, he is physically gifted and does a great job of using that athleticism to blow through the line. Lawson has great experience and has faced very talented offensive lines, especially in the ACC. He has a very long reach and elusive, quick frame. Lawson also is very effective blocking kicks and punts.


Negatives: Lawson has definitely benefited from the outstanding play of opposite defensive end Mario Williams. Could add some bulk if he wishes to play DE in the NFL. Lawson needs to become smarter and learn not to primarily use his speed to beat defenders because offensive linemen at the next level are more athletic.



Overview:
Should consider the switch to outside linebacker in a 3-4 defense where he can rush the passer and use his athleticism to drop back in coverage. If he bulks up and adds muscle he could be very similar to a Demarcus Ware type player. Lawson has all the tools that can’t be taught, but needs to mature and become more polished to become a better pure player.

He is only 245lbs (Ware 257lbs) which is light when you have to shed blocks of offensive linemen and he isn't quite as quick at 4.7 40 vs Ware at 4.56. Carpenter is 255lbs and a 4.61 40 and a better run stopper.

Please tell me you are only kidding? DeMarcus Ware is weak on the run.....I repectfully disagree with you and bet if running a poll.....90 percent of the Zoners would agree with me.

Ware is an all around beast who will get better like a TIMEX ...game after game after well.....you get the idea.

[Sam I Am]

Ware has been fine at run stopping, his only problem has been identifying certain runs/reverses in time.(that happens)
Ware has been a lot better this year. I noted that in my post.

Lawson has been doing well stopping the run also, any talk about his poor run stopping ability from scouting reports was when he was playing DE at 240 pounds. Its a lot easier to do it at OLB.

I think you are slightly confused. A 3-4 linebacker has to be bigger than a 4-3 linebacker just for the fact that a 3-4 lineback MUST be able to handle offensive linemen. In a 4-3 the offensive linemen generally will be engaging the four defensive linemen leaving the linebackers to shed the lead blocking fullback or tight ends which usually arn't 300lbs+ line the offensive line.

The following is taken from the teams roster pages.

For instance. The New York Giants are a 4-3 defense.

LaVar Arrington: 257lbs
Carlos Emmons: 245lbs
Antonio Peirce: 238lbs
Brandon Short: 245lbs
Garris Wilkinson: 238lbsCowboys 3-4 defense:

Akin Ayodele: 250lbs
Kevin Burnett: 240lbs
Bobby Carpenter: 257lbs
Ryan Fowler: 250lbs
Oliver Hoyte: 250lbs
Al Singleton: 250lbs
Brandie James: 250lbs
DeMarcus Ware: 257lbsThe Cowboys have a single linebacker that is under 250lbs and thats Kevin Burnett. Parcells said that he plays special teams very well (doesn't need to over 250lbs for that) and that he will be mainly played in the nickle. At 240lbs he has better movement for pass coverage.

The point is, the fewer defensive linemen you have the bigger/stronger your linebackers have to be. I think once Carpenter gets a year or so under his belt, he will be a solid (and very aggressive) linebacker.

[Jarv]

It is what it is........a mistake Zoners!

BP history shows that he is loyal to his former players........I am sure he liked Carp alot because of his Dad.......this was a BP pick......and I am afraid it is going to be a mistake!

I agree with several of you who asked where would Lawson play at because of the stellar Ellis play? That is valid.......

I was a big Lawson fan and started several posts before the draft stating we should take this guy..... and I don't do this for a living!

So, what was our problem?

So that is why BP choose Chris Simms for a QB, when we were hurting there...

[superpunk]

Please tell me you are only kidding? DeMarcus Ware is weak on the run.....I repectfully disagree with you and bet if running a poll.....90 percent of the Zoners would agree with me.

Ware is an all around beast who will get better like a TIMEX ...game after game after well.....you get the idea.

:confused:

[Vintage]

Please tell me you are only kidding? DeMarcus Ware is weak on the run.....I repectfully disagree with you and bet if running a poll.....90 percent of the Zoners would agree with me.

Ware is an all around beast who will get better like a TIMEX ...game after game after well.....you get the idea.

Right. Poll people here to get an objectionable view on a Cowboy player. Sounds smart.

Afterwards, we can pull Palestinians on their thoughts if Israel has the right to exist.

--------------

Though, it should be noted, Ware IMO is not bad against the run.....

[Vintage]

:confused:

I think he is saying "Are you kidding me, Ware is weak on the run?1?1?"

He didn't put quotes in where he said Ware is weak on the run. But he followed it up with a "I disagree with that." I think he was referencing nyc's post with the "Ware is weak on the run" and then saying his opinion, that he disagrees with that comment.

But then again, I am never sure what he is saying....

[BigDFan5]

Nice article, thanks for the read

[CrazyCowboy]

:laugh1: Crazy, Manny Lawson called. He said he doesn't love you any more, and that he's considering getting a restraining order.

He told me to tell you that it just wasn't meant to be, and you should forget about him; he hopes you'll find that special OLB someday--one that will make you as happy as you deserve to be--and live a happy life.:laugh1:

OK --- that helps me.......really!:rolleyes:

[Vintage]

Nice article, thanks for the read

Rape.

Or if thats too non PC for non gamers....

Rope....

[superpunk]

Nice article, thanks for the read
That's not right.....:lmao:

good esplanation Vintage. BTW

[Sam I Am]

Please tell me you are only kidding? DeMarcus Ware is weak on the run.....I repectfully disagree with you and bet if running a poll.....90 percent of the Zoners would agree with me.

Ware is an all around beast who will get better like a TIMEX ...game after game after well.....you get the idea.
I said (again) his weakness is the run. He (thus far) seems to be much much better this year, but he is still better in coverage and rushing the passer than he is in run defense. He is by all means not a dominate run stopping outside linebacker. Your homer glasses are on if you believe he is. I never said he sucked, I just said that was his weakness. (He sucked during the first part of last year though) He is bigger (up 15 pounds (http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=211&p=8&c=1&nid=1426014)) and stronger this year than he was last year.

[btcutter]

San Francisco 49ers
Rookie OLB Manny Lawson shows good explosion off the ball and is aggressive in run support. He had two sacks in Week 2. On one of them, he beat Pro Bowl tackle Orlando Pace off the edge.

What was we thinking when we passed on this guy?

Is have two DeMarcus Ware's a bad thing? :bang2:

Maybe the question should be why did the Texans take Mario William instead of trading down to get Bush and Lawson????

[Idgit]

:laugh1: :laugh1:

OK --- that helps me.......really!:rolleyes:

:o:

:D

[AtlCB]

It is what it is........a mistake Zoners!

BP history shows that he is loyal to his former players........I am sure he liked Carp alot because of his Dad.......this was a BP pick......and I am afraid it is going to be a mistake!

I agree with several of you who asked where would Lawson play at because of the stellar Ellis play? That is valid.......

I was a big Lawson fan and started several posts before the draft stating we should take this guy..... and I don't do this for a living!

So, what was our problem?Coming out of college, he was projected to be a RDE or a WOLB. In our system, he would be a part time player buried behind Ware. Carpenter gives us a potential backup at all four positions and an eventual starter at SOLB when Ellis retires.