Falcons add college-style option to running game

[Doomsday101]

FLOWERY BRANCH, Ga. (AP) -- The Atlanta Falcons came up with a new option for their already prolific running game.

Get this: It's the option.

In a throwback to an era when college teams such as Alabama and Texas ran up and down the field, letting the quarterback decide whether to hand the ball off or run it himself, the Falcons are shaking up the regimented NFL with their own limited variation of the scheme.

Several times in each of the first two games, Michael Vick lined up in the shotgun, look the defense over, then decided whether to hand off to Warrick Dunn or take off on a bootleg.

No matter what the decision, Vick still ran to the outside as if he had the ball and Dunn barreled up the middle like he had it. That bit of chicanery left two of the NFL's top defenses in a state of confusion.

The Falcons (2-0) rambled for 252 yards in the season opener at Carolina, followed by a franchise-record 306 yards on the ground against Tampa Bay.
"It's fun," said Vick, the one-of-a-kind quarterback who makes it possible to run the option. "To be able to get out in space and make a read of the defense poses a lot of problems for our opposition. It can be really deflating to a defense when you can't stop the run."

Always looking for ways to maximize Vick's unique abilities, the Falcons keep an eye on what other teams are doing in hopes of finding a deviation here, a variation there that might work in their West Coast-style offensive package.
They don't limit their scouting to NFL teams, either. The option, for instance, looks similar to some of the runs used by college powerhouse West Virginia, a team that just happened to rush for 382 yards back in January when the Sugar Bowl was held at the Falcons' home field.

"You poach," Atlanta coach Jim Mora admitted. "You look at what is working for other people, whether it is a Pop Warner team or an NFL team."
The Falcons already were the NFL's most prolific team on the ground, leading the league in rushing the last two years. They've taken it to another level this season, becoming just the third team in NFL history to rush for at least 250 yards in their first two games.

On Monday night, Atlanta travels to New Orleans for the reopening of the Superdome with a chance to join the 1975 Buffalo Bills -- who had a running back named O.J. Simpson -- as the only teams to eclipse 250 yards in their first three games.

With an average of 279 yards per game, the Falcons are off and running toward a third straight league rushing title. They are 61.5 yards ahead of second-place San Diego, and no other team is within 100 yards of Atlanta's staggering figure.

Surprisingly, Vick was a little skeptical when offensive coordinator Greg Knapp first broached the idea of running the option. NFL defenders are supposedly too quick and their schemes far too complex for any sort of gimmick to succeed.

"I didn't really know how it was going to go," Vick said. "This is the NFL, and not all defensive ends bite down on a play-fake out of the shotgun. We practiced it a lot over the summer. We ran it a couple of times against Carolina and it worked. We tried it against Tampa and it worked."
As successful as the option has been, the Falcons don't plan to use it much more than a half-dozen times a game. This isn't going to be a replay of college football in the 1970s, when powerhouse teams lined up in the wishbone and ran the ball down after down.

That said, if Vick can keep confusing defensive ends -- the key to making the option work -- it should remain viable. If nothing else, it gives opponents one more thing to think about.

"It is not something you can line up and run every play," Vick said. "You just don't know when it is coming because we have so many other concepts off that package."

The Buccaneers were certainly caught off guard: Dunn, doing much of his running between the tackles, ran for 134 yards. Vick chipped in with 127 yards on just 14 carries, scooting for at least 12 yards on eight of his runs.
In so doing, Vick and Dunn became the first quarterback-running back duo in NFL history to rush for 125 yards apiece in the same game.

The Saints will certainly be focused on containing the run, but it's tough to prepare in such a short time for all the Falcons' variations.

"There's only so many reps in the course of a week's preparations," New Orleans coach Sean Payton said. "That makes it difficult to decide what you're going to do with your time and how many reps you're going to devote to that package."

Even if teams figure out how to contain the option, Mora believes it should open up things for Atlanta's inconsistent passing game. Vick had to throw just 37 passes in the first two games, though three of them went for touchdowns.

"There is going to come a time when we are not going to be able to run the ball for 200 yards a game and we are going to depend on the passing game," Mora said. "I feel confident that it is ready to go."

Giving the Falcons another option, so to speak.

Copyright 2006 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not
be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/football/nfl/09/21/bc.fbn.runningfalcons.ap/index.html

[EastDallasCowboy]

If it's ever going to work consistently in the NFL, they're the team to do it, no doubt.

Mind you though, they've only got about 2-5 more years where it's feasible before Vick starts to get too old to that kind of beating anymore.

Personally, I love the option. I still remember the couple of time we ran it with Quincy....and it's a fun play to watch.

[Hostile]

It won't work. They'll go backwards in fact.

[Doomsday101]

If it's ever going to work consistently in the NFL, they're the team to do it, no doubt.

Mind you though, they've only got about 2-5 more years where it's feasible before Vick starts to get too old to that kind of beating anymore.

Personally, I love the option. I still remember the couple of time we ran it with Quincy....and it's a fun play to watch.

I think he will end up on ESPN jacked up and not be around much longer running the option in the NFL. This is the NFL not college.

[BrAinPaiNt]

It won't work. They'll go backwards in fact.


With the rushing totals they have put up so far...the only way they could go is backwards.

Kind of hard to improve on what they have been doing in the rushing game so far.

The problem, as I see it, is when Vick gets injured. I think it is pretty much a given he will get injured.

Then you have to go back to a different system for your backup.

[Hostile]

I think he will end up on ESPN jacked up and not be around much longer running the option in the NFL. This is the NFL not college.:hammer:

Right on the friggin' :money:

[Hostile]

With the rushing totals they have put up so far...the only way they could go is backwards.

Kind of hard to improve on what they have been doing in the rushing game so far.

The problem, as I see it, is when Vick gets injured. I think it is pretty much a given he will get injured.

Then you have to go back to a different system for your backup.Yep, as Dooms just said, you will see him on the jacked up segment. You remove the QB protection he has by making him a RB in the option. He's gonna get slaughtered.

[Doomsday101]

DC will view the tapes and will put a stop to it and do so in a very painful way. QB on the option is fair game regardless if he pitches the ball or not. You can take it to the bank DC are going to tell the DE take Vick out!!!

[peplaw06]

I noticed this in last week's highlights. They're running Vince young and UT's Zone Read. Not saying they'll continue to have success with it in the NFL but if they do, the next logical step is to see Tennessee running it.

[hipfake08]

As was stated. When Vick takes enough of a beating. They will stop.

[superpunk]

Personally, I love the option. I still remember the couple of time we ran it with Quincy....and it's a fun play to watch.
I think he will end up on ESPN jacked up and not be around much longer running the option in the NFL. This is the NFL not college.

Someone needs a job....

http://media.theinsiders.com/Media/Other/76_Quincy_Carter_09.JPG

I hear Campo is dissatisfied in JAX....

[peplaw06]

DC will view the tapes and will put a stop to it and do so in a very painful way. QB on the option is fair game regardless if he pitches the ball or not. You can take it to the bank DC are going to tell the DE take Vick out!!!

To be fair, they're not running your conventional option. Vick's not running out there with Dunn and deciding whether to pitch it or not. I don't see Vick taking a shot when he doesn't have the ball.

[jay cee]

I don't think they are running the down the line option like the college teams from the '70's. Also, they are only running it a few times each game.

It's not going to open Vick up to an excessive number of hits IMO. I think its a cool wrinkle to their offense.

[lspain1]

I hear Campo is dissatisfied in JAX....

Really?...a serious question...his defense sure looks good.

[superpunk]

Really?...a serious question...his defense sure looks good.

No.....not really. :D

[BrAinPaiNt]

One should not get too focused on just the option play in the classic sense of it.

I think they are following more of the WVU model of the spread offense.

Still this is the NFL and with someone that already has a history of injuries it is not something that is in the overall best interest of the player or team.

I think they should have learned that even though he is not the best passing QB in the NFL (not even close) that he really is the spark for that team and they have not been as good when he has missed time.

[jay cee]

One should not get too focused on just the option play in the classic sense of it.

I think they are following more of the WVU model of the spread offense.

Still this is the NFL and with someone that already has a history of injuries it is not something that is in the overall best interest of the player or team.

I think they should have learned that even though he is not the best passing QB in the NFL (not even close) that he really is the spark for that team and they have not been as good when he has missed time.
The key is the coach said they only run it a few times each game. It's not like they are building their entire offense around it.

[wileedog]

I think they should have learned that even though he is not the best passing QB in the NFL (not even close) that he really is the spark for that team and they have not been as good when he has missed time.

Its a Catch-22 for Atlanta.

What Vick does best is what he is doing now. When they have tried to play him as a more 'conventional' QB he is pretty average.

Of course what he is doing now will eventually get him hurt again, and he will be contributing nothing.

So, do you play safe and have an average QB? Or do you let him go and get that spark they need from him as long as you can until he goes down?

Looks like they are picking the latter.

[Doomsday101]

To be fair, they're not running your conventional option. Vick's not running out there with Dunn and deciding whether to pitch it or not. I don't see Vick taking a shot when he doesn't have the ball.

I understand what they are running and it is pretty much the same thing the Longhorns were doing it is a shotgun spread option and I think NFL DC will put an end to this, it may take them a few games but just like the NFL teams that were playing the college run and shoot DC will figure a way to stop it.

[wileedog]

The key is the coach said they only run it a few times each game. It's not like they are building their entire offense around it.

The guy has 21 rushing attempts in 2 games. Whether its the option play or not they are clearly letting him run this year, and I agree with those who have said eventually he's going to get nailed for it.

[InmanRoshi]

People are making way too much out of it, IMHO. Its not like they're in the wishbone and running it every single play. Its just a wrinkle in the offense, like running a screen pass. If defenses want to spend an inordinate amount of practice time preparing for it, that would probably suit Knapp and the Falcons just fine. Vick would probably take the same amount of punishment if he was standing back in the pocket absorbing hits, but at least with the option play Vick has the chance to slide or run out of bounds.

[CaptainAmerica]

It looks to me like it's a case of them catching teams by surprise a little bit. Even Vick realizes this from the sound of his quotes. As the season progresses, teams will be prepared to defend it.

Even if it remains successful, it's a very long season and the odds are Vick is eventually gonna get knicked up if he keeps running like that. It's happened to him almost every year.

[jay cee]

The guy has 21 rushing attempts in 2 games. Whether its the option play or not they are clearly letting him run this year, and I agree with those who have said eventually he's going to get nailed for it.
Qb's get nailed in the pocket also, it's a part of the game. IMO, they are using him the way that he should be used.

[Vintage]

The Falcons are 2-0, beating Carolina and Tampa Bay.

They have a good defense. And their running game is the best in the game. They are poised to have a great year. I am worried about our game with them....

[superpunk]

The Falcons are 2-0, beating Carolina and Tampa Bay.

They have a good defense. And their running game is the best in the game. They are poised to have a great year. I am worried about our game with them....

The good news is, we're big.

The bad news is, we're big.

[Doomsday101]

Qb's get nailed in the pocket also, it's a part of the game. IMO, they are using him the way that he should be used.

Like a college QB. Vick is nothing more than a RB playing the QB position. Personally I hope they continue to play him like they are I'm going to enjoy watching him get jacked up. Running QB do not last in the NFL. Rookie tend to run because they have difficulty making the quick reads and resort to their running ways in the face of pressure but successful ones learn to drop back and hit their target and run only as a last resort.

[dwmyers]

One of the reasons it's successful is the spread option looks like a classic 1975 Landry shotgun in terms of player positioning. So, on 2nd and 20, what do you do?

Defend the run?

David.

[BrAinPaiNt]

One of the reasons it's successful is the spread option looks like a classic 1975 Landry shotgun in terms of player positioning. So, on 2nd and 20, what do you do?

Defend the run?

David.


Well if what I have seen of it, watching WVUs spread offense, than more times than not you DO defend the run because most of the time in those 3rd and really long situations they do a delay/draw.

[peplaw06]

Well if what I have seen of it, watching WVUs spread offense, than more times than not you DO defend the run because most of the time in those 3rd and really long situations they do a delay/draw.

The one thing I've seen with college spread offenses.. or failed to see... is passing after a fake handoff. IMO if an offense could put that to use, it would make it even more difficult to defend. Make it a triple threat play, you keep the secondary from providing run support.

[Doomsday101]

The one thing I've seen with college spread offenses.. or failed to see... is passing after a fake handoff. IMO if an offense could put that to use, it would make it even more difficult to defend. Make it a triple threat play, you keep the secondary from providing run support.

Longhorns did that on every down regardless if it were a passing play or running play. Vince would consistently lineup in the shotgun and would either hand off, run or pass. This was one of the big question marks some scouts had with Young because he seldom was under center. This all works very well in the NCAA I just don't think it will last in the NFL and think you put your QB at a big risk. Then again I don't consider Vick much of a QB, I think he is a great athlete but I would not want him QB'ing my team I would have to move him to another position

[wileedog]

Qb's get nailed in the pocket also, it's a part of the game. IMO, they are using him the way that he should be used.

Oh I agree. I would do the same thing with him because he is nothing special as a QB otherwise.

But he goes down seemingly every year with an injury and I expect no different this year. Yes QBs get nailed in the pocket occasionally, but those 21 rushing attempts are 21 times other QBs are not getting hit and he most likely is.

[peplaw06]

Longhorns did that on every down regardless if it were a passing play or running play. Vince would consistently lineup in the shotgun and would either hand off, run or pass. This was one of the big question marks some scouts had with Young because he seldom was under center. This all works very well in the NCAA I just don't think it will last in the NFL and think you put your QB at a big risk. Then again I don't consider Vick much of a QB, I think he is a great athlete but I would not want him QB'ing my team I would have to move him to another position

I won't say it never happened, but RARELY did I see Vince actually fake the handoff to the back, keep it and pull up for a pass. That's what I'm talking about. He may have been lined up in shotgun every play, and may have just taken the snap and attempted a pass, but I don't remember much faking then passing.

I went to the UT opener this season and I KNOW I never saw Colt McCoy fake a zone read handoff and throw the ball. And he's a better passer than runner, and is supposed to be a better passer than Vince.

[roughneck266]

It won't work. They'll go backwards in fact.
Exactly! This has been tried in the NFL before and guess what? It has NEVER worked consistantly. Just ione of those plays that doesn't translate to this level, defenses are just too quick. That said, they willl probably make a couple decent plays outof it before everyone and their brother watches fo it and then it will be shut down.

[Doomsday101]

I won't say it never happened, but RARELY did I see Vince actually fake the handoff to the back, keep it and pull up for a pass. That's what I'm talking about. He may have been lined up in shotgun every play, and may have just taken the snap and attempted a pass, but I don't remember much faking then passing.

I went to the UT opener this season and I KNOW I never saw Colt McCoy fake a zone read handoff and throw the ball. And he's a better passer than runner, and is supposed to be a better passer than Vince.


Sorry I did see it a lot and follow the Longhorns every game. McCoy is not Vince Young he is a freshman and still learning.

[Chocolate Lab]

It's awesome. There's no reason this can't work in the NFL, at least on a part-time basis. NFL defensive ends aren't used to playing that technique at all.

And like peplaw said, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Tennessee started doing it... Maybe even as soon as against us.

[Eddie]

Why is everyone so adamant that this will fail? It seems more like everyone wants it to fail rather than seeing it as a real possibility.

Who knows? QB's get hurt all the time. Most get hurt while standing in the pocket. Does that mean we shouldn't allow our QB's to stand in the pocket anymore???

I'm sure the Falcons will tailor this offense to their needs. Vick is a pro and a top tier athlete. This gives them the best chance of success.

We already know Vick is not going to a classic pocket passer. Moving him around and letting him run is the best opportunity for success.

[BrAinPaiNt]

The one thing I've seen with college spread offenses.. or failed to see... is passing after a fake handoff. IMO if an offense could put that to use, it would make it even more difficult to defend. Make it a triple threat play, you keep the secondary from providing run support.


So far I have yet to see a QB under the WVU Coach (Rich Rodriquez) that has been a good passer.

They may have streaks or games when they are hitting well but for the most part they are below to average at best in the passing game.

I don't think he even recruits good passers. When he first got here he had a decent Passing QB on the team from the last coach and Rich told him he would not work in his system as he was not a running QB.
So that QB left and went to Maryland.

For those not familiar with this coach. He was also the coach (OC not HC) for Tulane and Clemson when Woody Dantzler and Suan King were QBs at each school.

So that should tell you that he puts a running QB first.

However with all of that said.

There are times when they can be an effective passing team because they run so much.

One thing that really annoys me with this offense, or more specifically the Coach is that they rarely, If EVER, use the TE's in the passing game.

I would think a spread offense with limited passing they would use the TE in the passing game for safer passes by the QBs.

[dbair1967]

People are making way too much out of it, IMHO. Its not like they're in the wishbone and running it every single play. Its just a wrinkle in the offense, like running a screen pass. If defenses want to spend an inordinate amount of practice time preparing for it, that would probably suit Knapp and the Falcons just fine. Vick would probably take the same amount of punishment if he was standing back in the pocket absorbing hits, but at least with the option play Vick has the chance to slide or run out of bounds.

actually no, he will likely be hit more and eventually will be hit much harder...there are games where normal drop back QB's are hardly hit...if he is running 6-8-10+ times a game he is eventually going to take the big hits in addition to the usual pounding he would take on pass plays

there is a reason nobody has used an option type philosophy in the NFL, and pretty soon the Falcons will be the posterchild for it again when Vick gets destroyed...players in the NFL are much bigger and faster than whats in college...once teams decide to really attack the option and the Falcons running game in general, Vick is going to get killed...Carolina and Tampa both laid back and let the Falcons attack them...but teams are going to quit doing that because they know Vick is no threat as a passer...teams should just go after the Falcons with 8 and 9 guys in the box and shooting into the backfield

David

[Yeagermeister]

The option might work a few times here and there but in the NFL the players are too fast and have seen the option many times. It works in college because the speed is not the same. In the nfl it's nothing more than a gadget play.

But I don't blame Atl for trying it. Vick will never be a pocket qb and you have to go with what he does best.

[Hostile]

Why is everyone so adamant that this will fail? It seems more like everyone wants it to fail rather than seeing it as a real possibility.

Who knows? QB's get hurt all the time. Most get hurt while standing in the pocket. Does that mean we shouldn't allow our QB's to stand in the pocket anymore???

I'm sure the Falcons will tailor this offense to their needs. Vick is a pro and a top tier athlete. This gives them the best chance of success.

We already know Vick is not going to a classic pocket passer. Moving him around and letting him run is the best opportunity for success.It's not about wanting it to fail. It's about the fact it opens a QB up to unecessary hits. If he rolls out and pitches the ball he can still be hit because now since he is out of the pocket and downfield he is a potential blocker and if he trails the runner with the ball he is also a potential runner on a pitch back.

It works in college. I believe NFL teams are all too big and too fast for it to work at this level without dire consequences.

Just my opinion.

[TEK2000]

It's not about wanting it to fail. It's about the fact it opens a QB up to unecessary hits. If he rolls out and pitches the ball he can still be hit because now since he is out of the pocket and downfield he is a potential blocker and if he trails the runner with the ball he is also a potential runner on a pitch back.

It works in college. I believe NFL teams are all too big and too fast for it to work at this level without dire consequences.

Just my opinion.

Based on the article's description.. they are not running the option they way you are describing it. They are running the Zone Read from the shotgun... the OPTION is immediate based on what the DE does. Its not the VEER or TRIPLE option where the QB is sprinting outside and a Pitch Man is following along with him.

I don't recall Vince Young ever taking a big hit in any type of scenario you described while running this offense (and I watched nearly every one of his college games).

If this is thrown at a defense a handful of times per game.. you will likely catch the NFL DE's off guard. I may have to download and watch the Atlanta vs Carolina game to see how Julius Peppers handled seeing that.

[Doomsday101]

Based on the article's description.. they are not running the option they way you are describing it. They are running the Zone Read from the shotgun... the OPTION is immediate based on what the DE does. Its not the VEER or TRIPLE option where the QB is sprinting outside and a Pitch Man is following along with him.

I don't recall Vince Young ever taking a big hit in any type of scenario you described while running this offense (and I watched nearly every one of his college games).

If this is thrown at a defense a handful of times per game.. you will likely catch the NFL DE's off guard. I may have to download and watch the Atlanta vs Carolina game to see how Julius Peppers handled seeing that.

Young would get hit but he was bigger than most of the guys who were going after him. I think you can do that in college I think you put your QB at greater risk on this level. There is just too much of a difference between this level of play and that of the NCAA

[chicago JK]

I agree with IM. people are making too big of a deal about this. The Falcons won't line up in the wishbone but they will throw this out to surprise a defense. It will also force defenses to spend practice time preparing for the option that they might or might not see. Vick is a weapon and they are just looking for different ways to take advantage of him.

[chicago JK]

Based on the article's description.. they are not running the option they way you are describing it. They are running the Zone Read from the shotgun... the OPTION is immediate based on what the DE does. Its not the VEER or TRIPLE option where the QB is sprinting outside and a Pitch Man is following along with him.

I don't recall Vince Young ever taking a big hit in any type of scenario you described while running this offense (and I watched nearly every one of his college games).

If this is thrown at a defense a handful of times per game.. you will likely catch the NFL DE's off guard. I may have to download and watch the Atlanta vs Carolina game to see how Julius Peppers handled seeing that.

good catch TEK. They have used this already this year and it has been very effective. If that End cheats in just a little, Vick can see that and it is probably an automatic 10 yard gain. If the DE plays his role of being containment the handoff goes to the RB.

[Hostile]

Based on the article's description.. they are not running the option they way you are describing it. They are running the Zone Read from the shotgun... the OPTION is immediate based on what the DE does. Its not the VEER or TRIPLE option where the QB is sprinting outside and a Pitch Man is following along with him.

I don't recall Vince Young ever taking a big hit in any type of scenario you described while running this offense (and I watched nearly every one of his college games).

If this is thrown at a defense a handful of times per game.. you will likely catch the NFL DE's off guard. I may have to download and watch the Atlanta vs Carolina game to see how Julius Peppers handled seeing that.Why is everyone assuming only a DE would be the hitter?

Ever heard of LBs and Safeties under a full head of steam.

Remember when we were going to run some with Q at QB and we were going to open the season at Tampa? Sapp was begging us to run it. Ask yourself why.

[Bob Sacamano]

it's the only way the Falcons can make use of Vick, since he'll probably never develop into a consistent passer, having a great ground game, and Ds not knowing if VIck is going to hand off, or run w/ it, the advantage of the option, will help Vick in the passing game, as the Ds will be gearing towards running after him, a LB, leaving a TE, or secondary WR with less coverage, so he could fake the hand-off, roll-out, and then hit an open receiver, it's a good strategy brought on having an inconsistent passer in Vick, so in essence, they're playing to their weakness at QB, and making it a strength, I like it

[TEK2000]

Why is everyone assuming only a DE would be the hitter?

Ever heard of LBs and Safeties under a full head of steam.

Remember when we were going to run some with Q at QB and we were going to open the season at Tampa? Sapp was begging us to run it. Ask yourself why.

I was referring to the effectiveness of the play against the DE.

Ask yourself... what is the difference between the shotgun option and a BOOTLEG or QB DRAW? The LB's and Safeties are still running under a full head of steam. On any of those plays he's out in the open running the ball... there's no difference.

Also, the option the Cowboys used a few times with Quincy is the option you referred to... the QB is running outside with a pitch man. Based on everyone's description, this is NOT the same thing!

[Bob Sacamano]

Then you have to go back to a different system for your backup.

that's why Schaub is so valuable to them, he's actually a good passer, the option is the only way Vick can be a successful QB at his point in time, maybe for his whole career, if he gets hurt, they can go back to running a traditional WCO, and I don't think there will be much drop-off, either system, they'll have a strong running game, but w/ Schaub, they can be more balanced

[peplaw06]

There are times when they can be an effective passing team because they run so much.

One thing that really annoys me with this offense, or more specifically the Coach is that they rarely, If EVER, use the TE's in the passing game.

I would think a spread offense with limited passing they would use the TE in the passing game for safer passes by the QBs.

:hammer:

Running teams are doing themselves a disservice if they don't take advantage of the occassional pass. I was searching for stats on what used to be one of the best running teams in NCAA... Nebraska. They never had great passing QBs, but it always seemed like they would have a couple of big passing plays per game, often to the TEs. In 1999 Eric Crouch averaged over 16 yards per completion... that's retarded.

For comparison, your "good" passing game yardage wise... benchmark of 300 yards. You'd have to get 300 yards on 18 completions to average over 16 yards per.

[TEK2000]

Young would get hit but he was bigger than most of the guys who were going after him. I think you can do that in college I think you put your QB at greater risk on this level. There is just too much of a difference between this level of play and that of the NCAA

I can see it working if you run it A FEW TIMES per game... no more than 5 to 10 times MAYBE is what I'm thinking.

You're gonna catch the defense off guard because, in reality, there's really not any major difference between NFL offenses. Its all about personell and being able to execute what you want to do. If a team throws out a big change from the norm like that only a very few times per game... its possible that they could have success with it in those limited uses.

[superpunk]

Remember when we were going to run some with Q at QB and we were going to open the season at Tampa? Sapp was begging us to run it. Ask yourself why.
Me: to self; "Why?"

Self: to me; "Stop asking me questions, retard."

I think Atlanta is doing what they gotta do.

They are not going to win attempting to make Vick something he isn't. While it's tough to put your enormous investment at so much risk, it's the only thing he's suited for.

They've chosen between wallowing in mediocrity, with the safe road, and exxcelling at something, by taking a chance. Once Vick gets annihilated, they will be questioned. But I can't fault them for trying.

[Bob Sacamano]

The one thing I've seen with college spread offenses.. or failed to see... is passing after a fake handoff. IMO if an offense could put that to use, it would make it even more difficult to defend. Make it a triple threat play, you keep the secondary from providing run support.

:hammer:

it's utilizing Vick the best way possible

[TEK2000]

:hammer:

Running teams are doing themselves a disservice if they don't take advantage of the occassional pass. I was searching for stats on what used to be one of the best running teams in NCAA... Nebraska. They never had great passing QBs, but it always seemed like they would have a couple of big passing plays per game, often to the TEs. In 1999 Eric Crouch averaged over 16 yards per completion... that's retarded.

For comparison, your "good" passing game yardage wise... benchmark of 300 yards. You'd have to get 300 yards on 18 completions to average over 16 yards per.

My dad coached this way for 20 years. He ran the VEER offense for 15 years and you'd wind up with some big pass plays because the defense expects it to be a run EVERY PLAY. The few times that you do pass you just give them a playaction and your recievers usually wind up being all alone because the defense was selling out against the run.

[Doomsday101]

Me: to self; "Why?"

Self: to me; "Stop asking me questions, retard."

I think Atlanta is doing what they gotta do.

They are not going to win attempting to make Vick something he isn't. While it's tough to put your enormous investment at so much risk, it's the only thing he's suited for.

They've chosen between wallowing in mediocrity, with the safe road, and exxcelling at something, by taking a chance. Once Vick gets annihilated, they will be questioned. But I can't fault them for trying.

I agree with this. I would not want to see this happen in Dallas and I think Alt made a mistake with the big contract extention they gave Vick last year or the year before (when ever it was) He is a great athlete I just don't think he is much of a QB but Alt is going to make the most of this situation. I don't think it will last long.

[landryscorner]

the only outcome I see to this is a big injury to VICK it's the reason he's always been injured, running the ball too much, it will catch up to the falcons when they loose him for the year

[joseephuss]

Why is everyone assuming only a DE would be the hitter?

Ever heard of LBs and Safeties under a full head of steam.

Remember when we were going to run some with Q at QB and we were going to open the season at Tampa? Sapp was begging us to run it. Ask yourself why.

If they ran it more than a handful of times, then I would agree. That would be setting the QB up to unneceesary hits.

If it creates scoring opportunities in goal line situations, I wouldn't see it as opening the QB up to unneccesary hits. I see it as trying to score.

It's such a fine line between stupid and clever. We'll see if the Falcons cross that line.

[peplaw06]

the only outcome I see to this is a big injury to VICK it's the reason he's always been injured, running the ball too much, it will catch up to the falcons when they loose him for the year
IMO Vick's biggest mistake when running the ball is not giving up on the play... thus taking the big hit. There have been some great QBs who ran the ball pretty effectively who didn't have near the severity of injuries that Vick has had. I'm mainly thinking of Cunningham and Young. Young got in trouble with concussions, but Aikman had that problem too.

Vick always tries to get that extra yard. I think he can still be a running QB but avoid the big hits. We all know he's fast enough to outrun guys. He just has to be smarter... know when to run out of bounds, slide, and the like.

[superpunk]

I agree with this. I would not want to see this happen in Dallas and I think Alt made a mistake with the big contract extention they gave Vick last year or the year before (when ever it was) He is a great athlete I just don't think he is much of a QB but Alt is going to make the most of this situation. I don't think it will last long.

They made their own bed with the hype machine. Vick is a huge money-making entity, and he is at least worth the money - until young boys can figure out that he sucks. This move can do nothing but good for Vick and the Falcons from a marketing perspective, because it makes him more dangerous. He's incapable of running the offense like a normal QB, because he is not a normal QB. He wasn't drafted where he was because he was a normal QB, nor given that contract for that reason.

If you're gonna ride the Vick train, you have to give it the best chance to succeed. They've finally "gotten" that. IMO, the reward far outweighs the risk.

[Bob Sacamano]

punk, I don't think going to option plays was a marketing move ;)

[superpunk]

IMO Vick's biggest mistake when running the ball is not giving up on the play... thus taking the big hit. ....
Vick always tries to get that extra yard. I think he can still be a running QB but avoid the big hits. We al know he's fast enough to outrun guys. He just has to be smarter... know when to run out of bounds, slide, and the like.

Double-edged sword. How many of those highlights that make us all go "Woop!" along with that ignoramus Chris Berman when we see them, were caused by Vick making that extra move, taking that chance, and making it happen.

Who wants to see highlights of Vick running down the sideline only to step out of bounds 2 yards shy of the end zone? Noone. OTOH, you can show the video of him leaping across and getting up-ended over and over again.

He needs to learn when it's absolutely necessary, but he will never stop trying to get that extra yard. That's what makes him special. He's going to be broke down really early, but that;s what he's got to do.

[Doomsday101]

They made their own bed with the hype machine. Vick is a huge money-making entity, and he is at least worth the money - until young boys can figure out that he sucks. This move can do nothing but good for Vick and the Falcons from a marketing perspective, because it makes him more dangerous. He's incapable of running the offense like a normal QB, because he is not a normal QB. He wasn't drafted where he was because he was a normal QB, nor given that contract for that reason.

If you're gonna ride the Vick train, you have to give it the best chance to succeed. They've finally "gotten" that. IMO, the reward far outweighs the risk.

I think Alt is doing what they feel they need to do but I don't think in the end it will be successful. I think he will be on IR before the end of the season.

[superpunk]

punk, I don't think going to option plays was a marketing move ;)

Their overall philosphy this year (including the option plays) is absolutely a marketing move. They make their golden boy sit in the pocket - what happens? He goes from being known as a game-changing force who beat the Packers single-handedly in Lambeau - IN January - to being regularly criticized as a mediocre QB who can't run his own offense.

That's not good for business. Eventually, even the most casual of fans is going to catch on. And if this continues to breed winning, the marketing is even better.

[peplaw06]

Double-edged sword. How many of those highlights that make us all go "Woop!" along with that ignoramus Chris Berman when we see them, were caused by Vick making that extra move, taking that chance, and making it happen.

Who wants to see highlights of Vick running down the sideline only to step out of bounds 2 yards shy of the end zone? Noone. OTOH, you can show the video of him leaping across and getting up-ended over and over again.

He needs to learn when it's absolutely necessary, but he will never stop trying to get that extra yard. That's what makes him special. He's going to be broke down really early, but that;s what he's got to do.

I see what you're saying, and I agree with it... from a highlight perspective. If you want to be successful and have that success be long-term, you have to think about more than the highlight play.

I look at it like this... Vick can run for 10 yards, or he can get 15 and take a big hit. Run out of bounds, slide, whatever... then get up and do it again. If I'm a coach I don't care if he rips off highlight reel runs. I'd trade off the reduction in yards in one carry for more carries.

[Bob Sacamano]

you guys are both out of your minds

[superpunk]

I see what you're saying, and I agree with it... from a highlight perspective. If you want to be successful and have that success be long-term, you have to think about more than the highlight play.

I look at it like this... Vick can run for 10 yards, or he can get 15 and take a big hit. Run out of bounds, slide, whatever... then get up and do it again. If I'm a coach I don't care if he rips off highlight reel runs. I'd trade off the reduction in yards in one carry for more carries.

The coach would, definitely. he'd rather have Warrick Dunn trying to pick up those tougher yard than Vick, Dunn just takes the hit better. But it's too late to change the way Vick is. He goes for it. The only thing that's gonna make him change is his body shutting down. That will end his career awful quick, because he's obviously got a ten-cent mind ( for the passing game) to go with it.

[dbair1967]

I was referring to the effectiveness of the play against the DE.

Ask yourself... what is the difference between the shotgun option and a BOOTLEG or QB DRAW? The LB's and Safeties are still running under a full head of steam. On any of those plays he's out in the open running the ball... there's no difference.

Also, the option the Cowboys used a few times with Quincy is the option you referred to... the QB is running outside with a pitch man. Based on everyone's description, this is NOT the same thing!

who cares what kind of option/run play it is? The fact is he is injury prone and he is going to get hit more...he's also going to get hit by people that are alot bigger than he is...he isnt going to be able to avoid contact on every run play, especially once teams decide to attack them

David

[TEK2000]

who cares what kind of option/run play it is? The fact is he is injury prone and he is going to get hit more...he's also going to get hit by people that are alot bigger than he is...he isnt going to be able to avoid contact on every run play, especially once teams decide to attack them

David

Again, we're not talking about them running this option as their MAIN offense.. its only a very few times per game. Its no different than him scrambling, a bootleg, or QB draw that they run.
Like the article states:
"It is not something you can line up and run every play," Vick said. "You just don't know when it is coming because we have so many other concepts off that package."


How is that different than ANY OTHER PLAY? Most DLinemen and LBers are obviously bigger than he is!

Can't avoid contact on pass plays either.

[kmd24]

I won't say it never happened, but RARELY did I see Vince actually fake the handoff to the back, keep it and pull up for a pass. That's what I'm talking about. He may have been lined up in shotgun every play, and may have just taken the snap and attempted a pass, but I don't remember much faking then passing.


There are at least three such plays on this highlight reel (http://youtube.com/watch?v=PhxOfS1W3jM&mode=related&search=)at around the 1:30 mark, the 2:35 mark, and the 3:20 mark. There are also plenty of plays where there is no ball fake, so anyone who claims Vince faked the handoff on every play is incorrect.

[peplaw06]

There are at least three such plays on this highlight reel (http://youtube.com/watch?v=PhxOfS1W3jM&mode=related&search=)at around the 1:30 mark, the 2:35 mark, and the 3:20 mark. There are also plenty of plays where there is no ball fake, so anyone who claims Vince faked the handoff on every play is incorrect.

So 3 plays, out of a 4 minute highlight reel with 50 plays or so, makes me wrong?? I said rarely... and looking at this highlight reel only proves my point.

[Doomsday]

The Colts have their famous stretch play, the Falcons have thier new version called the stretcher cause if they run it enough that is exactly where Vick is going to end up.

[Chocolate Lab]

My dad coached this way for 20 years. He ran the VEER offense for 15 years and you'd wind up with some big pass plays because the defense expects it to be a run EVERY PLAY. The few times that you do pass you just give them a playaction and your recievers usually wind up being all alone because the defense was selling out against the run.
I admire your dad. :) I miss those days and wish they'd come back. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they did at some point, as cyclical as everything in football is.

And you described it right... It's not that the DE is doing the hitting, it's that the DE is the read the QB is making on that play. If the DE stays where he is, you hand it off and there's one less man to be blocked up the gut. If the DE crashes down, the QB keeps it and gets around the end.

Sure, Vick will probably get hurt, but he'd get hurt anyway. It's not like he's going to ever stay in the pocket and get the protection the rules give the QB there anyway.

[Hostile]

I was referring to the effectiveness of the play against the DE.

Ask yourself... what is the difference between the shotgun option and a BOOTLEG or QB DRAW? The LB's and Safeties are still running under a full head of steam. On any of those plays he's out in the open running the ball... there's no difference.

Also, the option the Cowboys used a few times with Quincy is the option you referred to... the QB is running outside with a pitch man. Based on everyone's description, this is NOT the same thing!Uh, in the Shotgun the QB doesn't leave the pocket. So he is NOT out running in the open with the ball.

In a Bootleg he does intentionally, it is not considered a scramble, and the QB is considered "fair game" which is exactly what I said about the Option and why I think it's a bad idea. For the record I am not someone who thinks a Bootleg is a good play to run unless it is rare as in only a handful of times per season. The very reason is that it leaves the QB vulnerable to a big hit. Thus you've amplified my point.

A Draw is where the QB drops back like he's going to pass and hands off to a RB who has delayed moving forward. He is again still in the pocket and not running in the open.

A QB in the pocket has (theoretically) protection in front of him. This simply is not the case in the Option.

The 3 plays are hardly synonymous and none of them have anything to do with the Option.

Yes, the Option is running outside the pocket with a potential "pitch man" to receive the ball. This is exactly my point. Once outside the pocket and acting as a runner the QB is fair game. Defensive Coordinators will instruct their defenders to "make him pay." In college this isn't nearly as dangerous. The defenders are smaller, slower, and usually not an elite level of football. Once these guys reach the NFL the chances of there being a defender who can put a serious hurt on a QB out there is vastly elevated.

Consider this as well, if Vick pitches the ball and does anything after the pitch other than to stop dead in his tracks he can be hit. In the pocket once he does not have the ball unless it is picked off, no one can touch him.

I simply don't think it is an inteligent risk.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Uh, in the Shotgun the QB doesn't leave the pocket. So he is NOT out running in the open with the ball.




We all know the shotgun is for a passing situation.

However I think what he means, and WVU uses this quite a bit, is the QB is back like he is in the shotgun and then has the option of running from that position or giving the ball to the RB who is next to him.

Many times WVU uses this to start off with and than the QB runs out of the pocket or up the middle.

That is what I think he means by that.:cool:

[LeonDixson]

Really?...a serious question...his defense sure looks good.

I believe he's just the secondary's coach. Still, the secondary is doing very well with about 5 ints so far.

[Chocolate Lab]

But Hos, this isn't the old option with a pitch man. The "option" is whether to give to the running back or keep right after the QB gets the snap. You're right that if there was a last-second pitch or keep on the corner that the QB would get destroyed, but that's not what this new-style option is doing.

[Maikeru-sama]

the Falcons are shaking up the regimented NFL with their own limited variation of the scheme.

They have alot money invested in this guy and I doubt it is being used much. They are 2-0 and last time I checked, Vick had the 2nd and third highest winning of any active QB.

- Mike G.

[LeonDixson]

It's not about wanting it to fail. It's about the fact it opens a QB up to unecessary hits. If he rolls out and pitches the ball he can still be hit because now since he is out of the pocket and downfield he is a potential blocker and if he trails the runner with the ball he is also a potential runner on a pitch back.

It works in college. I believe NFL teams are all too big and too fast for it to work at this level without dire consequences.

Just my opinion.

I agree with you, Hos. But another way to look at this is that Vick is not going to give you much of anything as a "normal" QB. So if you want any return on your investment you almost have to let him run the ball. At least with the option, the defense has to look out for Warrick too.

But I do agree that the option probably won't work for very long against NFL defenses, and Vick is going to be very vulnerable out there.

[Hostile]

But Hos, this isn't the old option with a pitch man. The "option" is whether to give to the running back or keep right after the QB gets the snap. You're right that if there was a last-second pitch or keep on the corner that the QB would get destroyed, but that's not what this new-style option is doing.I recognize this and am not saying differently.

Here, let me say it this way. For a moment you are Roy Williams and I am Mike Vick. We run the option out to the right. To your left you have Terence Newman.

I am past the Line of Scrimmage and out of the pocket. Unless I stop dead in my tracks and give up on the play, whether I have the ball or have pitched it outside to Warrick Dunn and he is now Newman's read and assignment, are you giving me a free ride on that play?

Or if I continue running up the field towards you are you going to do your impersonation of the Sandman? If I have the ball and don't slide feet first before you can touch me. That's the key.

Now, I'll openly admit, I prefer the pocket passer, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with this. I'm talking about straight up send a message defense. Do you deliver the message that this play will cost you, or do you do nothing and let them continue to think it's a good idea?

That's all it boils down to for me. Vick is not 6'4" and 235 pounds. Putting him out there for a defender to get a free shot at is a recipe for Matt Schaub to be the Falcons QB in 2006.

[Hostile]

I agree with you, Hos. But another way to look at this is that Vick is not going to give you much of anything as a "normal" QB. So if you want any return on your investment you almost have to let him run the ball. At least with the option, the defense has to look out for Warrick too.

But I do agree that the option probably won't work for very long against NFL defenses, and Vick is going to be very vulnerable out there.Steve Young made a living out of killing teams with the run. He never needed the Option to do it. So did Cunningham and any number of other QBs who could kill you with the run. Staubach used the Option at Navy at times to win the Heisman, yet to my knowledge never in Dallas.

The value of a QB who can run is amplified by his ability to pass the ball. None of those guys would have succeeded or achieved all they were capable of in the Option. When they ran it was because something had broken down and they saw or created a seam. Not by design. When something is done by creativity and ability it is effective. When a team game plans to stop an Option and does a good job of it, what's left? Now what are the "options?"

I can see running it now and then, same as a shovel pass. Just saying it's a silly risk and I think it has greater potential to get Vick hurt than it does of putting the Falcons opponents in a sticky situation.

[baj1dallas]

It won't work. They'll go backwards in fact.

Doesn't seem like that's been the case so far, not that I've watched a Falcons game this year.

[Chocolate Lab]

I am past the Line of Scrimmage and out of the pocket. Unless I stop dead in my tracks and give up on the play, whether I have the ball or have pitched it outside to Warrick Dunn and he is now Newman's read and assignment, are you giving me a free ride on that play?But there's not a pitch to Warrick Dunn. If the QB sees the DE out there and maybe a linebacker shaded out there, he gives to the running back and goes up between the tackles. If the end crashes inside and there's some open space out there, he sprints to the outside.

I'm not trying to argue that Vick can stand the hitting, because he's shown that he can't. But you know him, he's going to run out of the pocket anyway, so why not run a few plays like this that give him a little advantage of no running unless the defense shows an opening that way. It might be safer than him running down the middle of the field where a linebacker can blindside him.

But one thing to remember about this is that a lot of the play is designed not for Vick to run it outside, but for Dunn or whoever to have more room inside. Just the threat of Vick running outside keeps the DE and LB at home a step longer, and that one step can make a difference in popping one up the gut.

[TEK2000]

I recognize this and am not saying differently.

Here, let me say it this way. For a moment you are Roy Williams and I am Mike Vick. We run the option out to the right. To your left you have Terence Newman.

I am past the Line of Scrimmage and out of the pocket. Unless I stop dead in my tracks and give up on the play, whether I have the ball or have pitched it outside to Warrick Dunn and he is now Newman's read and assignment, are you giving me a free ride on that play?

Or if I continue running up the field towards you are you going to do your impersonation of the Sandman? If I have the ball and don't slide feet first before you can tough me. That's the key.

Now, I'll openly admit, I prefer the pocket passer, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with this. I'm talking about straight up send a message defense. Do you deliver the message that this play will cost you, or do you do nothing and let them continue to think it's a good idea?

That's all it boils down to for me. Vick is not 6'4" and 235 pounds. Putting him out there for a defender to get a free shot at is a recipe for Matt Schaub to be the Falcons QB in 2006.

With the style of option that's been described.. THERE IS NO PITCH. Its a handoff. Did you not see the Longhorns play last season? Now, I haven't seen Atlanta's 2 games this season so I may be wrong on what exactly they are running.. but, from what people are describing, its the Zone Read option and there is NO PITCH in that option.

The exact scenario you're describing could happen on any pass play where Vick takes off scrambling. It doesn't matter if he's dropped back passing, takes off scrambling (unprotected), or keeps it on the option, the defense will always be trying to destroy the QB.

Vick rushed 7 times against Carolina... which matches his average for last season's per game rushing attempts. So, at least for the Carolina game.. he didnt run the ball anymore than he did last season.
He had 14 rushes against Tampa Bay... but is that because they ran 14 option plays or just that he scrambled several times? I'm gonna watch the games and see myself.

[Hostile]

But there's not a pitch to Warrick Dunn. If the QB sees the DE out there and maybe a linebacker shaded out there, he gives to the running back and goes up between the tackles. If the end crashes inside and there's some open space out there, he sprints to the outside.

I'm not trying to argue that Vick can stand the hitting, because he's shown that he can't. But you know him, he's going to run out of the pocket anyway, so why not run a few plays like this that give him a little advantage of no running unless the defense shows an opening that way. It might be safer than him running down the middle of the field where a linebacker can blindside him.

But one thing to remember about this is that a lot of the play is designed not for Vick to run it outside, but for Dunn or whoever to have more room inside. Just the threat of Vick running outside keeps the DE and LB at home a step longer, and that one step can make a difference in popping one up the gut.I agree, that's the goal of the Option and he (Vick) can flat out run. I've never denied that.

I'm saying it's a bad idea because of the hitting. No other reason. At the college level a QB can take that kind of hitting. I don't believe he can at the NFL level. It's a bad trade.

I'm no fan of the option and I think there's a very real reason why NFL teams avoid it like the plague, but every now and then someone comes along thinking that it works in college so if you add the talent level of the Pros to the mix it will be even more lethal. I just think if it was that effective I'd have seen more of it at the NFL level for the last 36 years I've been watching football. But hey, that's me. I go by what I observe and I think the reason it won't be effective is exactly what I've already stated.

[chicago JK]

But there's not a pitch to Warrick Dunn. If the QB sees the DE out there and maybe a linebacker shaded out there, he gives to the running back and goes up between the tackles. If the end crashes inside and there's some open space out there, he sprints to the outside.

I'm not trying to argue that Vick can stand the hitting, because he's shown that he can't. But you know him, he's going to run out of the pocket anyway, so why not run a few plays like this that give him a little advantage of no running unless the defense shows an opening that way. It might be safer than him running down the middle of the field where a linebacker can blindside him.

But one thing to remember about this is that a lot of the play is designed not for Vick to run it outside, but for Dunn or whoever to have more room inside. Just the threat of Vick running outside keeps the DE and LB at home a step longer, and that one step can make a difference in popping one up the gut.

Yep, and how they have been running the ball....they are doing something right. For instance, when we play Atlanta, do you think Ware will need to think twice before crashing down the line of scrimmage to get to Dunn? If he does that is one less player the offensive line has to account for. If Ware does crash down the line he takes him out of the play if Vick keeps the ball.

[Hostile]

Doesn't seem like that's been the case so far, not that I've watched a Falcons game this year.When it works over a 16 game schedule I'll say I spoke out of turn without any idea what I was talking about. 2 games isn't evidence of much. I give them credit for beating the Panthers, but without Steve Smith that team has no heart.

[Hostile]

With the style of option that's been described.. THERE IS NO PITCH. Its a handoff. Did you not see the Longhorns play last season? Now, I haven't seen Atlanta's 2 games this season so I may be wrong on what exactly they are running.. but, from what people are describing, its the Zone Read option and there is NO PITCH in that option.

The exact scenario you're describing could happen on any pass play where Vick takes off scrambling. It doesn't matter if he's dropped back passing, takes off scrambling (unprotected), or keeps it on the option, the defense will always be trying to destroy the QB.

Vick rushed 7 times against Carolina... which matches his average for last season's per game rushing attempts. So, at least for the Carolina game.. he didnt run the ball anymore than he did last season.
He had 14 rushes against Tampa Bay... but is that because they ran 14 option plays or just that he scrambled several times? I'm gonna watch the games and see myself.Yes, I watched the Horns last season and for 36 years. I'm not a casual football fan.

Whether it's a pitch or a straight hand off or a keep it is still a QB out of the pocket running down the field where it is legal to hit him.

There is a huge difference in a QB running in the Option and a QB scrambling, the main one is that the Option is designed to draw the defenders to you while you have the ball so that you can hand or pitch it to someone else. A scramble is not meant to do that at all.

They are hardly analogous.

[Hostile]

Yep, and how they have been running the ball....they are doing something right. For instance, when we play Atlanta, do you think Ware will need to think twice before crashing down the line of scrimmage to get to Dunn? If he does that is one less player the offensive line has to account for. If Ware does crash down the line he takes him out of the play if Vick keeps the ball.Ware's assignment will be Vick and someone outside of him would have the assignment of the other player. The Option works because players do forget their assignments. if they don't it stalls and then the pass offense in an Option usually is completely ineffective.

Are you willing to gamble on teams having players who forget their assignments for all 16 games?

I'm not.

[chicago JK]

Ware's assignment will be Vick and someone outside of him would have the assignment of the other player. The Option works because players do forget their assignments. if they don't it stalls and then the pass offense in an Option usually is completely ineffective.

Are you willing to gamble on teams having players who forget their assignments for all 16 games?

I'm not.

The play I have seen the Falcons using is most time Vick hands the ball off to Dunn in the shotgun (who has averaged over five yards a carry so far). The lineman are all blocking like it is a run for Dunn. This twist just gives Vick the option to keep the ball and get 10-15 yards a few times a game. I think it is a good idea and think this whole back and forth is much ado about nothing.

If this just gives Vick the option to get outside once a game while they can still run effectively between the tackles then this gives the defense a lot to worry about.

[Hostile]

The play I have seen the Falcons using is most time Vick hands the ball off to Dunn in the shotgun (who has averaged over five yards a carry so far). The lineman are all blocking like it is a run for Dunn. This twist just gives Vick the option to keep the ball and get 10-15 yards a few times a game. I think it is a good idea and think this whole back and forth is much ado about nothing.

If this just gives Vick the option to get outside once a game while they can still run effectively between the tackles then this gives the defense a lot to worry about.I'll agree to disagree, but have to wonder if it's that useless a topic, why get involved at all?

[TEK2000]

Yes, I watched the Horns last season and for 36 years. I'm not a casual football fan.

Whether it's a pitch or a straight hand off or a keep it is still a QB out of the pocket running down the field where it is legal to hit him.

There is a huge difference in a QB running in the Option and a QB scrambling, the main one is that the Option is designed to draw the defenders to you while you have the ball so that you can hand or pitch it to someone else. A scramble is not meant to do that at all.

They are hardly analogous.

That was an honest question about watching the Longhorns.. no sarcasm intended.. sorry if it came across wrong. I didn't know if you were a Longhorn fan or not.

I disagree. In the Zone Read option the QB is not trying to draw the defense to him like you'd want in the veer or straight line option where the QB has a pitch man following. The Zone Read is basically designed for an Athletic RB and an Athletic QB. The QB decides whether to handoff or keep based on the actions of the DE and then, basically, tries to beat the defense with athleticism (with help from blockers obviously). That's why it was so successful for Texas because of Vince' athletic ability but also the ability of the running backs they had.

The idea for the veer style option is to draw the defender, like you mentioned, and then pitch to the pitch man... you're hoping the defense will play undisciplined and miss their assignments.

You're right on the fact that, if they ran it routinely and it was their base offense, it would be BAD for the NFL... but I think if they run it only 5 times a game or so, that it could be quite effective with Vick and Dunn.

[TEK2000]

Ware's assignment will be Vick and someone outside of him would have the assignment of the other player. The Option works because players do forget their assignments. if they don't it stalls and then the pass offense in an Option usually is completely ineffective.

Are you willing to gamble on teams having players who forget their assignments for all 16 games?

I'm not.

But the Falcons are running an NFL offense with an Option that they bring out only a few times a game. Its not like they are running and Option offense that they'll be depending upon on each play.

If the Option doesn't work.. they simply stop running it... they don't have to completely redo their offense.

[Clove]

Yeah, I can see Ware licking his chops waiting for Vick to come around the corner, he or RW will make it lights out.

[baj1dallas]

When it works over a 16 game schedule I'll say I spoke out of turn without any idea what I was talking about. 2 games isn't evidence of much. I give them credit for beating the Panthers, but without Steve Smith that team has no heart.

So what's your criteria for "working" going to be?

[Hostile]

That was an honest question about watching the Longhorns.. no sarcasm intended.. sorry if it came across wrong. I didn't know if you were a Longhorn fan or not.

I disagree. In the Zone Read option the QB is not trying to draw the defense to him like you'd want in the veer or straight line option where the QB has a pitch man following. The Zone Read is basically designed for an Athletic RB and an Athletic QB. The QB decides whether to handoff or keep based on the actions of the DE and then, basically, tries to beat the defense with athleticism (with help from blockers obviously). That's why it was so successful for Texas because of Vince' athletic ability but also the ability of the running backs they had.

The idea for the veer style option is to draw the defender, like you mentioned, and then pitch to the pitch man... you're hoping the defense will play undisciplined and miss their assignments.

You're right on the fact that, if they ran it routinely and it was their base offense, it would be BAD for the NFL... but I think if they run it only 5 times a game or so, that it could be quite effective with Vick and Dunn.I'm not a Longhorn fan, I'm a college football fan. As such I try and watch the best games. It's hard not to include the Horns there in recent years. On top of this I am a draft junkie so I watch as much as I can.

All it takes is one big hit to make it ineffective. I just think it's a recipe for disaster at this level of play. If it was that useful more teams would use it. Atlanta is trying something. Kudos to them. I say it won't work long run and will push them backwards. If I'm wrong I'll eat my words.

[Hostile]

So what's your criteria for "working" going to be?More than 2 games. I'll be shocked if they are still using it by mid season.

[jay cee]

Consider this as well, if Vick pitches the ball and does anything after the pitch other than to stop dead in his tracks he can be hit. In the pocket once he does not have the ball unless it is picked off, no one can touch him.

I simply don't think it is an inteligent risk.
Hos, as far as I can determine, that is not the play that the Falcons are running.

[Hostile]

Hos, as far as I can determine, that is not the play that the Falcons are running.I don't know why people think I don't know this or that it matters. I read the article that introduces the topic. It's based on the WVU version. I got it. Honest. I still think it's going to have a short life in the NFL for them or anyone else.

If it was that revolutionary it would have more than one team trying it in the last 45 years.

[peplaw06]

Hos, how long before you can get rid of the Avatar??

[jay cee]

I don't know why people think I don't know this or that it matters. I read the article that introduces the topic. It's based on the WVU version. I got it. Honest. I still think it's going to have a short life in the NFL for them or anyone else.

If it was that revolutionary it would have more than one team trying it in the last 45 years.
Maybe it was because you kept talking about when the QB pitches and stuff.

[Hostile]

Hos, how long before you can get rid of the Avatar??35 hours, 17 minutes.

[peplaw06]

35 hours, 17 minutes.

:lmao2:

I knew it was gettin close.

[Hostile]

Maybe it was because you kept talking about when the QB pitches and stuff.In other words when he runs the "Option?"

:bang2:

[Hostile]

:lmao2:

I knew it was gettin close.I hate bye week, but I got something to look forward to Sunday at 6:00 am my time.

[Deep_Freeze]

Ware's assignment will be Vick and someone outside of him would have the assignment of the other player. The Option works because players do forget their assignments. if they don't it stalls and then the pass offense in an Option usually is completely ineffective.

Are you willing to gamble on teams having players who forget their assignments for all 16 games?

I'm not.

I understand what you are saying. But, I'm sorry, if I'm Atlanta, I want Ware assigned to Vick. Sure, Ware might make the tackle, but likely the quick, agile 4.2 speed guy will win that matchup in the open field.

We aren't talking about guys like Matt Jones who runs a 4.3, but not as agile. Heck, Moss is straight line that fast too. But we are talking about those LBs catching someone with supreme quickness, agility, and 4.2 speed that is unmatched in the NFL.

I mean, sure the LBs will make the play alot, but there will be times where Vick will break their ankles for 6.

You are making the point of people having to miss assignments, I don't agree. There are people assigned to every position on the field. The middle LB is assigned to stop the running back, does he always make the play?? Nope.

Now, with this in mind, that same LB is assigned to probably the most dangerous weapon in football. I pick Vick.

[Hostile]

I understand what you are saying. But, I'm sorry, if I'm Atlanta, I want Ware assigned to Vick. Sure, Ware might make the tackle, but likely the quick, agile 4.2 speed guy will win that matchup in the open field.

We aren't talking about guys like Matt Jones who runs a 4.3, but not as agile. Heck, Moss is straight line that fast too. But we are talking about those LBs catching someone with supreme quickness, agility, and 4.2 speed that is unmatched in the NFL.

I mean, sure the LBs will make the play alot, but there will be times where Vick will break their ankles for 6.

You are making the point of people having to miss assignments, I don't agree. There are people assigned to every position on the field. The middle LB is assigned to stop the running back, does he always make the play?? Nope.

Now, with this in mind, that same LB is assigned to probably the most dangerous weapon in football. I pick Vick.Yep. And times when they break his knees for 6.............................months.

I know it is an effective offense when run right. I'm not naive.

How long have you been watching the NFL? See many teams using it? Are you naive? Or can you admit that there's probably a real good reason why they don't use it.

How much are QBs worth? 5 plays a game until he's sidelined with a knee injury? That's a price you'll pay because he can run? Then again, it isn't your knees, so why not right? Me, I don't pay that price with my QB.

[Deep_Freeze]

Yep. And times when they break his knees for 6.............................months.

I know it is an effective offense when run right. I'm not naive.

How long have you been watching the NFL? See many teams using it? Are you naive? Or can you admit that there's probably a real good reason why they don't use it.

How much are QBs worth? 5 plays a game until he's sidelined with a knee injury? That's a price you'll pay because he can run? Then again, it isn't your knees, so why not right? Me, I don't pay that price with my QB.

All my life. No, you don't see it in the NFL, but how many QBs come into the NFL with the type of agility and speed of a Vick, along with at least a mediocre arm.

There has been noone like Vick. Noone. So if you haven't seen it before, you just might see something different for a special player. Other teams don't use it cause they can't, they don't have a guy like Vick.

You worry with injury, but you have to worry about that on any play. Carson's knee got blown up standing in the pocket. They are trying to win by using all of Vick's gifts, and I see nothing wrong with that.

I guess he could blow his knee in a scramble, I guess Dunn could blow his knee, I guess any player can blow their knee. Being too safe and holding things back can cost you wins. Sure, you could lose someone to injury, and that would hurt, but 3 runs won't be a reason that Vick would blow his knee, I just don't buy that.

[Hostile]

All my life. No, you don't see it in the NFL, but how many QBs come into the NFL with the type of agility and speed of a Vick, along with at least a mediocre arm.

There has been noone like Vick. Noone. So if you haven't seen it before, you just might see something different for a special player. Other teams don't use it cause they can't, they don't have a guy like Vick.

You worry with injury, but you have to worry about that on any play. Carson's knee got blown up standing in the pocket. They are trying to win by using all of Vick's gifts, and I see nothing wrong with that.

I guess he could blow his knee in a scramble, I guess Dunn could blow his knee, I guess any player can blow their knee. Being too safe and holding things back can cost you wins. Sure, you could lose someone to injury, and that would hurt, but 3 runs won't be a reason that Vick would blow his knee, I just don't buy that.So, in your estimation the only reason NFL teams don't use it is because there's never been a QB like Vick?

Sorry, I don't buy that. There's a reason Landry wanted Staubach in the pocket.

Yes, you can get injured on any play. I'm talking about the odds here. If you want to tell me the odds are equal, I will disagree.

It's like 2 dogs. One is a Dalmation and the other is a Rottweiler. While the dalmation could still bite you the odds are you should be more afraid of the Rottweiler. That's all I'm saying.

Plus I doubt very seriously they could successfully use it for the entire season. If they do I will eat my words. I've already said that.

[Deep_Freeze]

So, in your estimation the only reason NFL teams don't use it is because there's never been a QB like Vick?

Sorry, I don't buy that. There's a reason Landry wanted Staubach in the pocket.

Yes, you can get injured on any play. I'm talking about the odds here. If you want to tell me the odds are equal, I will disagree.

It's like 2 dogs. One is a Dalmation and the other is a Rottweiler. While the dalmation could still bite you the odds are you should be more afraid of the Rottweiler. That's all I'm saying.

Plus I doubt very seriously they could successfully use it for the entire season. If they do I will eat my words. I've already said that.

Ok, we are talking about maybe 5 plays. 3 of them, Vick will keep and run. 2 of them, Dunn gets handed to him. Bad things could happen, but you know what, good things could happen too.

Stabauch, I have only seen in highlights, really before my time. But I do know one thing, he didn't run under a 4.2 with the speed and agility of Vick.

This guy blows up angles in the open field on anyone. His legs are his best weapon, not his arm. You are telling me that you wouldn't use his legs 3 times a game??

I don't see how you can't buy that other teams haven't used it because they don't have a special talent like Vick. If I got any other QB, I wouldn't do it. With Vick, I would consider it cause he has a huge advantage.

[Hostile]

Ok, we are talking about maybe 5 plays. 3 of them, Vick will keep and run. 2 of them, Dunn gets handed to him. Bad things could happen, but you know what, good things could happen too.

Stabauch, I have only seen in highlights, really before my time. But I do know one thing, he didn't run under a 4.2 with the speed and agility of Vick.

This guy blows up angles in the open field on anyone. His legs are his best weapon, not his arm. You are telling me that you wouldn't use his legs 3 times a game??

I don't see how you can't buy that other teams haven't used it because they don't have a special talent like Vick. If I got any other QB, I wouldn't do it. With Vick, I would consider it cause he has a huge advantage.I would use his legs the same way Staubach used his, Young used his, Elway used his, Cunningham used his, Tarkenton used his. When the play breaks down and he created on his own. There is no defense for that. They can prepare themselves mentally by saying be aware of it, but they can't scheme to stop it. Therein lies the difference.

[dbair1967]

I don't see how you can't buy that other teams haven't used it because they don't have a special talent like Vick. If I got any other QB, I wouldn't do it. With Vick, I would consider it cause he has a huge advantage.

yeah he's a huge advantage running, he's also a huge disadvantage passing, which is why the Falcons are doing what they are doing...he's probably the worst passing QB in the NFL

Vick probably wouldnt have even been drafted 10 years ago, and he definitely wouldnt have been drafted in the 80's...there were alot of QB's who had his running skills as a QB but nobody in the league cared for them because they couldnt pass

David

[koolaid]

Why is everyone so adamant that this will fail? It seems more like everyone wants it to fail rather than seeing it as a real possibility.

Who knows? QB's get hurt all the time. Most get hurt while standing in the pocket. Does that mean we shouldn't allow our QB's to stand in the pocket anymore???

I'm sure the Falcons will tailor this offense to their needs. Vick is a pro and a top tier athlete. This gives them the best chance of success.

We already know Vick is not going to a classic pocket passer. Moving him around and letting him run is the best opportunity for success.

good post, i agree

[jay cee]

In other words when he runs the "Option?"

:bang2:
which option?:laugh2:
The one the Falcons run, or the one they don't?

[Deep_Freeze]

I would use his legs the same way Staubach used his, Young used his, Elway used his, Cunningham used his, Tarkenton used his. When the play breaks down and he created on his own. There is no defense for that. They can prepare themselves mentally by saying be aware of it, but they can't scheme to stop it. Therein lies the difference.

I don't think you are getting what I am saying. Vick has better legs than all the guys you mentioned. ALL OF THEM. Vick has the best wheels in this league, no other QB has EVER been able to say that.

All the guys you mention, there were guys in the league alot faster and quicker than them playing WR, RB, or such. Sure, they were fast and elusive for the QB position, but not when you compared them to other positions on the field. The difference is, Vick's legs are more gifted than any position on the field.

The guys you mention don't even belong in the same sentence in terms of wheels. Some just don't realize what a game changer he is, dismiss him with old school football thoughts that are just plain old. Dog him if you want, his team will win ballgames. The problem I have is that if he does get hurt, all everyone will say is, "I told you so". Like noone wants the kid to succeed. That is just plain horrible.

yeah he's a huge advantage running, he's also a huge disadvantage passing, which is why the Falcons are doing what they are doing...he's probably the worst passing QB in the NFL

Vick probably wouldnt have even been drafted 10 years ago, and he definitely wouldnt have been drafted in the 80's...there were alot of QB's who had his running skills as a QB but nobody in the league cared for them because they couldnt pass

David

Dear god, why does this guy have so many haters. I know that you mean more than 10 years, cause Vick has been in the league for a while. If you date him back, he is that much more of a special package.

10 years ago, Deion was in the league and was as fast as Vick. But Vick is much more agile and quick than Deion ever was, and Deion is one of my favorites of all time. Plus, Deion was a CB, not a QB.

25 years ago, Vick would have dusted everyone in the league. 25 years ago, people, just like now, would have been closed minded about Vick. I will say it, prejudice would have not allowed him to even play QB unless he was gifted with the greatest arm in the world by god.

Let the boy play ball, and stop looking for him to fail.

[Deep_Freeze]

Why is everyone so adamant that this will fail? It seems more like everyone wants it to fail rather than seeing it as a real possibility.

Who knows? QB's get hurt all the time. Most get hurt while standing in the pocket. Does that mean we shouldn't allow our QB's to stand in the pocket anymore???

I'm sure the Falcons will tailor this offense to their needs. Vick is a pro and a top tier athlete. This gives them the best chance of success.

We already know Vick is not going to a classic pocket passer. Moving him around and letting him run is the best opportunity for success.

good post, i agree

Two people that understand the greatest show on turf is now in Atlanta. Who would've thought it, it is by running the ball.

I challenge anyone to just watch this kid run. Just watch, without homer glasses on. Don't hate him cause he isn't a Cowboy, be a fan of the game. Watch how players react when he is coming at them. You haven't ever seen a QB like him, he actually has great arm strength, the accuracy just isn't there yet.

Vick sells tickets. How can you not enjoy watching him play. I remember seeing him run right around a guy that had the angle on him, it was truely a freakish play. I mean the guy had the angle, yet Vick ran through where this guys angle was to met Vick, and then stopped on a dime, and cut the opposite direction. I haven't seen anyone do this, wish I had the highlight. The speed and agility was just unmatched, the guy never had a chance, and looked foolish for even chasing him.

[Hostile]

I don't think you are getting what I am saying. Vick has better legs than all the guys you mentioned. ALL OF THEM. Vick has the best wheels in this league, no other QB has EVER been able to say that.No, I get what you're saying and I'm discounting it as a doesn't matter point. Or are you trying to tell me that anyone slower than Vick wouldn't be a good candidate? Because that's an awfully narrow view of somethign you're trying to defend. I mean think about what you're actually telling me. It won't work, except with this particular guy.

Sounds an awful lot like you agree with my point, except this one guy in all of History is the exception to this. Awfully convenient thinking.

All the guys you mention, there were guys in the league alot faster and quicker than them playing WR, RB, or such. Sure, they were fast and elusive for the QB position, but not when you compared them to other positions on the field. The difference is, Vick's legs are more gifted than any position on the field.So, teams should go find Carl Lewis type track stars if they want this to work? Come on. Do you really expect me to buy that?

The guys you mention don't even belong in the same sentence in terms of wheels. Some just don't realize what a game changer he is, dismiss him with old school football thoughts that are just plain old. Dog him if you want, his team will win ballgames. The problem I have is that if he does get hurt, all everyone will say is, "I told you so". Like noone wants the kid to succeed. That is just plain horrible.Holy cow, are you a closet Falcons fan? Or just plain over sensitive when someone disagrees with you? I am not "dogging him." I'm dogging the idea of using the Option in the NFL. There is a huge chasm across that gap. When you realize that let me know.

[Deep_Freeze]

No, I get what you're saying and I'm discounting it as a doesn't matter point. Or are you trying to tell me that anyone slower than Vick wouldn't be a good candidate? Because that's an awfully narrow view of somethign you're trying to defend. I mean think about what you're actually telling me. It won't work, except with this particular guy.

Sounds an awful lot like you agree with my point, except this one guy in all of History is the exception to this. Awfully convenient thinking.

Umm, yes, I am saying he is an exception. There are some things that only Barry Sanders could do. Jim Brown, or any really gifted player in their time, could also do. Not comparing him to them as overall players, but he has attributes that are that special. More special than anyone else in the game, and yes, this makes him an exception.

So, teams should go find Carl Lewis type track stars if they want this to work? Come on. Do you really expect me to buy that?

Nah, your going a bit far. There is a difference between a track guy and a football player. Vick just happens to be a football player who is as fast as a track star.

Holy cow, are you a closet Falcons fan? Or just plain over sensitive when someone disagrees with you? I am not "dogging him." I'm dogging the idea of using the Option in the NFL. There is a huge chasm across that gap. When you realize that let me know.

I knew it would be just a matter of time before you called me a Falcon fan........:)

Too many people can only like who is on their team, and thats it. Everyone else sucks. Well, I'm not like that, I can appreciate a player on any team for what he is and give him props if he deserves them. I liked Deion before he was a Cowboy. I can appreciate Barry Sanders, who was never a Cowboy. I could go and defend Barry if you want to, lol...........maybe not.

All I'm saying is just cause he plays for another team, that doesn't make him better or worse and doesn't prevent me from talking positive about him.

I guess you aren't dogging him, you are only saying he is going to blowout his knees. How nice.

I hope the best for him, and I see doing this on a limited basis as not a problem. You are against the option, and for the most part I agree with you, unless you have a special talent at QB like Vick.

[Hostile]

Umm, yes, I am saying he is an exception. There are some things that only Barry Sanders could do. Jim Brown, or any really gifted player in their time, could also do. Not comparing him to them as overall players, but he has attributes that are that special. More special than anyone else in the game, and yes, this makes him an exception.And I don't agree, because 90% of success in the NFL is between the ears not in an arm or a legs. You can't pull off the option without being able to out think the guy in front of you. 4.2 seconds vs. 4.4 seconds vs. 4.6 seconds just doesn't matter. It's that split second you make him hesitate that does. And if he doesn't hesitate...plan B.

Nah, your going a bit far. There is a difference between a track guy and a football player. Vick just happens to be a football player who is as fast as a track star.LOL

That's all I can say.

I knew it would be just a matter of time before you called me a Falcon fan........:)I was being a smart alec. I actually just think you're being way over sensitive.

Too many people can only like who is on their team, and thats it. Everyone else sucks. Well, I'm not like that, I can appreciate a player on any team for what he is and give him props if he deserves them. I liked Deion before he was a Cowboy. I can appreciate Barry Sanders, who was never a Cowboy. I could go and defend Barry if you want to, lol...........maybe not.Yeah, well that diagnosis ain't me bra. Let me clue you in on something, I like Mike Vick. So while you sit there and try and label me some kind of hater wallow in your utter failure to make the label stick because there's not enough glue in the world when you're applying it to the wrong place.

All I'm saying is just cause he plays for another team, that doesn't make him better or worse and doesn't prevent me from talking positive about him.That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about Mike Vick. I'm talking about the Option and its worth in the NFL. I could care less if this discussion was about Drew Bledsoe, Mike Vick, or Howdy Freaking Doody. I like and appreciate football players who make watching the game a jaw dropping experience for me and Vick fits that bill. I don't care what uniform he wears. I don't care about what school he went to. I don't care about anythign other than the incontrovertable fact that in the NFL the Option has not worked and I don't believe it will work, not even with him.

I guess you aren't dogging him, you are only saying he is going to blowout his knees. How nice.Exactly DF, I'd hate to see the guy get hurt. Are you getting it yet? Is it sinking in? Or should I throw an anvil instead of a life preserver?

I hope the best for him, and I see doing this on a limited basis as not a problem. You are against the option, and for the most part I agree with you, unless you have a special talent at QB like Vick.I'll stand by what I've already said. They caught some teams off guard. Now they will scheme to stop it and the only guy in History who fits the description of someone at the NFL level who can play this scheme (your words, not mine) will not find the success he could have because this will go backwards, not forwards. I'll be shocked if it isn't scrapped by mid season.

[Wolfpack]

Its not like half the guys in the NFL (or more) havent had to defend the option play. Only real advantage is that it forces the defense to practice (and think about) one more thing during the week.

I would certainly find a way to put it in just to make the D think but the injury factor is a season (or more) breaker so it is should used about as much as a reverse.

[Deep_Freeze]

And I don't agree, because 90% of success in the NFL is between the ears not in an arm or a legs. You can't pull off the option without being able to out think the guy in front of you. 4.2 seconds vs. 4.4 seconds vs. 4.6 seconds just doesn't matter. It's that split second you make him hesitate that does. And if he doesn't hesitate...plan B.

LOL

That's all I can say.

I was being a smart alec. I actually just think you're being way over sensitive.

Yeah, well that diagnosis ain't me bra. Let me clue you in on something, I like Mike Vick. So while you sit there and try and label me some kind of hater wallow in your utter failure to make the label stick because there's not enough glue in the world when you're applying it to the wrong place.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about Mike Vick. I'm talking about the Option and its worth in the NFL. I could care less if this discussion was about Drew Bledsoe, Mike Vick, or Howdy Freaking Doody. I like and appreciate football players who make watching the game a jaw dropping experience for me and Vick fits that bill. I don't care what uniform he wears. I don't care about what school he went to. I don't care about anythign other than the incontrovertable fact that in the NFL the Option has not worked and I don't believe it will work, not even with him.

Exactly DF, I'd hate to see the guy get hurt. Are you getting it yet? Is it sinking in? Or should I throw an anvil instead of a life preserver?

I'll stand by what I've already said. They caught some teams off guard. Now they will scheme to stop it and the only guy in History who fits the description of someone at the NFL level who can play this scheme (your words, not mine) will not find the success he could have because this will go backwards, not forwards. I'll be shocked if it isn't scrapped by mid season.

I don't get your comments on between the ears, sounds like you are calling Vick dumb. He is smart enough to know when to keep or hand off.

I don't care if they hesistate or what, the game is about beating matchups, and Vick will win quite a few.

You say you don't care who it is, the option doesn't work. Really, the way they are running it, it isn't a true option anyway. Leave the ball in with the RB or take off with it. It looks like any other run out of that formation, and I assume you know that the Falcons gain alot of yards by running the ball.

Now, they could hand it to Dunn, and get yards, but are you telling me if Vick keeps he doesn't get anywhere?? How can you possibly believe that. You just have the option for either to run, giving yourself more options. Vick may hand it off the whole game, but in your thinking, I guess Dunn wouldn't get any yards either.

[Hostile]

I don't get your comments on between the ears, sounds like you are calling Vick dumb. He is smart enough to know when to keep or hand off. Once again, no, I'm not calling him dumb even though in my opinion he's recently done some very dumb things. I'm calling the people who would use the Option in the NFL dumb.

I don't care if they hesistate or what, the game is about beating matchups, and Vick will win quite a few. I never once said he couldn't win some matchups. I said that once he is operating as a RB he's "fair game," and that it is a gamble with a crucial part of your offense that i wouldn't take.

Is that not clear? How can it not be clear?

You say you don't care who it is, the option doesn't work. Really, the way they are running it, it isn't a true option anyway. Leave the ball in with the RB or take off with it. It looks like any other run out of that formation, and I assume you know that the Falcons gain alot of yards by running the ball.When did this not be exactly what the Option is? That's truly comical. The Option is, and always has been, about running the ball and having more than 1 option who could end up with the ball. That's why they call it the Option.

Now, they could hand it to Dunn, and get yards, but are you telling me if Vick keeps he doesn't get anywhere?? How can you possibly believe that. You just have the option for either to run, giving yourself more options. Vick may hand it off the whole game, but in your thinking, I guess Dunn wouldn't get any yards either.Now you're skipping my entire point to go where I haven't gone at all? When did I talk about Dunn in this entire scenario? It isn't about who they can pitch or hand off to. That has nothing whatsoever to do with it. It hasn't even been in the discussion.

[Deep_Freeze]

Once again, no, I'm not calling him dumb even though in my opinion he's recently done some very dumb things. I'm calling the people who would use the Option in the NFL dumb.

I never once said he couldn't win some matchups. I said that once he is operating as a RB he's "fair game," and that it is a gamble with a crucial part of your offense that i wouldn't take.

Is that not clear? How can it not be clear?

When did this not be exactly what the Option is? That's truly comical. The Option is, and always has been, about running the ball and having more than 1 option who could end up with the ball. That's why they call it the Option.

Now you're skipping my entire point to go where I haven't gone at all? When did I talk about Dunn in this entire scenario? It isn't about who they can pitch or hand off to. That has nothing whatsoever to do with it. It hasn't even been in the discussion.

Well, you wouldn't be using any of his gifts if you keep him in the pocket. I think it is worth a try, if it works great, if it doesn't, oh well move on.

I know what an option is, just making it known that Vick isn't running down the line pitching the ball.

Dunn was brought up for one reason. In that play, you keep on saying that the D will scheme against it and be able to stop it easily. It is simple, teams scheme against everything, if Vick just hands off to Dunn, they scheme against it and that is fine to you. But as soon as he has the option to run himself from the same spot, it won't work. I just don't understand that, it would be different if Vick wasn't the athlete he is. But since he can run better than Dunn, it is obivous that he would gain yards also.

On this option, Dunn can gain yards if he keeps, Vick can if he keeps.

Yes, it is a risk. One thing I have never understood with my WR background is why a WR or a RB can get nailed on every play, with no harm, but a QB as soon as he does anything, he has a concussion or something, lol.

Anyway, yes he would be fair game. But I think he is fair game whenever he is on the field cause of his style of play. Critics and purists think it is nuts, but going against the norms isn't always destined for failure.

[Hostile]

Well, you wouldn't be using any of his gifts if you keep him in the pocket. I think it is worth a try, if it works great, if it doesn't, oh well move on.

I know what an option is, just making it known that Vick isn't running down the line pitching the ball.

Dunn was brought up for one reason. In that play, you keep on saying that the D will scheme against it and be able to stop it easily. It is simple, teams scheme against everything, if Vick just hands off to Dunn, they scheme against it and that is fine to you. But as soon as he has the option to run himself from the same spot, it won't work. I just don't understand that, it would be different if Vick wasn't the athlete he is. But since he can run better than Dunn, it is obivous that he would gain yards also.

On this option, Dunn can gain yards if he keeps, Vick can if he keeps.

Yes, it is a risk. One thing I have never understood with my WR background is why a WR or a RB can get nailed on every play, with no harm, but a QB as soon as he does anything, he has a concussion or something, lol.

Anyway, yes he would be fair game. But I think he is fair game whenever he is on the field cause of his style of play. Critics and purists think it is nuts, but going against the norms isn't always destined for failure.Yeah, the Fun n Gun was going to take over the NFL. I forget.

[Deep_Freeze]

Yeah, the Fun n Gun was going to take over the NFL. I forget.

LOL. Never said that, I don't agree with the option in other cases, but with Vick, I think it might unleash some of his gifts. Obviously, we aren't going to be running the option with Bledsoe............

[Hostile]

LOL. Never said that, I don't agree with the option in other cases, but with Vick, I think it might unleash some of his gifts. Obviously, we aren't going to be running the option with Bledsoe............I think it might get him killed.

[Deep_Freeze]

I think it might get him killed.

If I was the OC, I would call one in practice just to see the reaction, lol, it would be classic.

[JonJon]

This makes Vick more dangerous IMO. He isn't a pocket QB and never will be. Let him make plays with his feet.