All Division Team

[Tio]

All division team.Now that the dress hearsals are over... give your all division team on who has looked best in the preseason.

[AJM1613]

All division team.Now that the dress hearsals are over... give your all division team on who has looked best in the preseason.

http://nfl.com/teams/depthcharts/PHI

:p

Seriously? Give me a second.

[Tio]

QB: Vinny Testaverde

RB:Ron Dayne

WR:TO, Keyshawn

TE:Jason Witten

OL:?

FB:Anderson has looked good, not sure about the others

DL:Eagles

LB:? Very weak group so far

CB:Newman, Springs

S: Sean Taylor, ?

P:Mat Mcbriar

K:(im assuming) david akers

[Rack Bauer]

QB: Vinny Testaverde

RB: Ron Dayne (you said to base it on the preseason, right?)

FB: ???

WR: Keyshawn Johnson, Rod Gardner

TE: Jason Witten

OL: Who cares?

RE: ???

LE: Strahan

DTs: Glover, Simon

OLB: ???

MLB: Dat Nguyen

CB: Newman, Smoot?

FS: Taylor

SS: Dixon... j/k.



I didn't put much thought into that. I really don't care for the all preseason team anyway. :confused:

[SALADIN]

Punter Matt McBride ;)

[laythewood28]

qb-vinny
rb-r.lee,dayne
wr-keyshawn,owens
te-whitten
ol-LA,FLO
fb-richie(didn't see other teams run that often)
dl-glover,kearse,simon
lb-they all looked bad-thorton
db-springs,taylor,tnew, m.lewis- had one interception i believe

[Tio]

qb-vinny
rb-r.lee,dayne
wr-keyshawn,owens
te-whitten
ol-LA,FLO
fb-richie(didn't see other teams run that often)
dl-glover,kearse,simon
lb-they all looked bad-thorton
db-springs,taylor,tnew, m.lewis- had one interception i believeR. Lee? He ahsn't been that good.

[AJM1613]

QB: McNabb
HB: Portis
FB: Anderson/Ritchie
WR: Owens
WR: Coles
TE: Shockey
LT: Adams/Samuels
LG: Mayberry/Allen
OC: Fraley I guess, weak position.
RG: Andrews???
RT: Runyan/Jansen (if healthy he is #1).

DE: Kearse
DT: Simon
DT: Glover
DE: Strahan
SL: Emmons
ML: Nguyen
WL: Arrington
CB: Newman
CB: Allen
FS: Taylor (Dawkins hasn't played).
SS: S. Williams

PK: Akers
P: McBriar/Feagles

LS: Bartrum

[laythewood28]

R. Lee? He ahsn't been that good.

compared to portis,jones,barber,george,and any body the eagles put out, he stood out the most imo. I'm not saying he is going to be our starter(j. jones will be),but he played the best during preseason.

[AJM1613]

compared to portis,jones,barber,george,and any body the eagles put out, he stood out the most imo. I'm not saying he is going to be our starter(j. jones will be),but he stood out the most.

McCoo averaged 10.2 ypc the other night.

[Tio]

Time to correct you...QB: Testaverde (not the better QB...)
HB: Portis no
FB: Anderson/Ritchie
WR: Owens
WR: Coles no
TE: Shockey no
LT: Adams/Samuels
LG: Mayberry/Allen
OC: Fraley I guess, weak position.
RG: Andrews???
RT: Runyan/Jansen (if healthy he is #1).

DE: Kearse
DT: Simon
DT: Glover
DE: Strahan
SL: Emmons no
ML: Nguyen no
WL: Arrington no
CB: Newman
CB: Allen
FS: Taylor (Dawkins hasn't played).
SS: S. Williams

PK: Akers
P: McBriar/Feagles

LS: BartrumI think maybe you were listing the players you think are the best.

[laythewood28]

McCoo averaged 10.2 ypc the other night.

yeah, for one game. I thought reshard lee looked good in all three games he has played.

[Tio]

compared to portis,jones,barber,george,and any body the eagles put out, he stood out the most imo. I'm not saying he is going to be our starter(j. jones will be),but he played the best during preseason.Ron Dayne has averaged 7.4 yards a carry, Julius Jones has averaged 4.7. JJ has easily been our best back. R. Lee has averaged 3.4. I like Lee, he can be a solid backup. But I think the innefectiveness of George has people overrating him.

[Hostile]

All division team.Now that the dress hearsals are over... give your all division team on who has looked best in the preseason.
This is who I think will be best, not who has looked best in PS.


OFFENSE

QB...Donovan McNabb (Until Henson arrives.) ;)


RB...Clinton Portis (Gibbs knows how to use RBs.)

FB...Jamar Martin (Punishment personified.)


WR...Terrell Owens (Like him or hate him, he is talented.)

WR...Keyshawn Johnson (Can't believe I am saying that.)

TE...Jason Witten (Yes, over Anna Shockey.)


LT...Flozell Adams (Slight edge over Samuels.)

LG...Larry Allen (He's back.)

C...Corey Raymer (I'd love to say Al Johnson though.)

RG...Shawn Andrews (Kid is a killer already.)

LT...Jon Runyan (Would have been Jansen if he wasn't injured.)


DEFENSE

LDE...Michael Strahan (Gap still has what it takes.)

LDT...La'Roi Glover (One of the best in the game.)

RDT...Corey Simon (Up and comer.)

RDE...Jevon Kearse (I wanted the Freak.)


LOLB...Marcus Washington (I hated the Skins getting him.)

MLB...Dat Nguyen (Deserved the pro Bowl last year. Is an upper echelon MLB.)

ROLB...Lavar Arrington (I still hope his contract situation wreaks havoc in DC.)


LCB...Terence Newman (Teams don't throw at him.)

SS...Roy Williams (The pain machine.)

FS...Sean Taylor (Ball hawking rookie is for real.)

RCB...Lito Shepherd (I'd say Wil Allen if he didn't have injury issues.)



SPECIAL TEAMS

LS...Jeff Robinson (Best in the game right now.)

K...David Akers (Hands down, not even close.)

P...Jeff Feagles (McBriar can change my mind if he keeps it up.)

KR/PR...Chad Morton (He is less than advertised though. Room for Crayton to take this honor.)

[Tio]

Hos it might seemed far fetched, but I agree with you for the most part.
Do you agree with me that we will be the bast Passing team this year?

[Marcuz]

SPECIAL TEAMS
(McBriar can change my mind if he keeps it up.)


The kid has done well so far. The kick he does the spins backwards is called a drop punt and is used in aussie rules football. I cant believe there isn't more aussies than matt and Darren Bennett punting. There are so many guys playing Aussie rules football who kick for a living. An untapped resource just waiting to be explioted.

[AJM1613]

Time to correct you...I think maybe you were listing the players you think are the best.

I started out that way, and then changed McNabb back to Testaverde.

[AJM1613]

WR...Keyshawn Johnson (Can't believe I am saying that.)

Over Coles?

RDT...Corey Simon (Up and comer.)

Simon is peaking, his best years are already behind him, one more year at his peak.

FS...Sean Taylor (Ball hawking rookie is for real.)

Over Dawkins??? Or because Dawkins hasn't played?

RCB...Lito Shepherd (I'd say Wil Allen if he didn't have injury issues.)

Thanks for the confidence. :)

K...David Akers

Best in the game

KR/PR...Chad Morton (He is less than advertised though. Room for Crayton to take this honor.)

Have you seen Reed in the preseason? Damn.

[DCowboysGal]

Hos it might seemed far fetched, but I agree with you for the most part.
Do you agree with me that we will be the bast Passing team this year?

More likely we'll be the worst in the division. Here's how I'd rank them:

PHI: Pro-Bowl QB D. McNabb best arm in division and best scrambling ability in league among QB's; backup QB Koy Detmer smart and reliable; Pro Bowl WR T. Owens (enough said); young secondary WR's Freddie Mitchell and Todd Pinkston should really thrive with a legitimate #1 drawing attention away from them - Pinkston could become younger version of Terry Glenn, a skinny frail WR with great speed and purely an outside threat; TE L. J. Smith is a rising star with good speed and great hands and is a future Pro Bowler soon

WAS: QB's Mark Brunell has average arm and decent scrambling ability; WAS has best backup QB's in division in Patrick Ramsay and Tim Hasselbeck who are both young yet still have game experience; WAS can go at least 4-deep in WR's with Laveranues Coles, Rod Gardner, Taylor Jacobs, and Damien McCants all young and tall with good hands and speed; TE Walter Rasby great blocker while rookie Chris Cooley has solid hands and decent speed

NYG: QB Kurt Warner has average arm and mediocre scrambling ability; backup QB Eli Manning raw; WR's Amani Toomer and Ike Hilliard best starting duo in division and relatively young; two solid backups should emerge from secondary WR's David Tyree, Tim Carter, and James McKnight; TE Jeremy Shockey best in division; backup TE Visanthe Shiancoe might be most athletic in division

DAL: QB Vinny Testaverde 2nd-best arm in division but least mobile QB; backups QB's Drew Henson and Tony Romo least tested in division; WR Keyshawn Johnson emerging as #1 and still great blocker; Terry Glenn big-play WR but strictly outside WR and frail; Antonio Bryant solid #2 or #3; TE's Jason Witten and Dan Campbell comprise best TE duo in division (although Shockey-Shancoe combo could challenge for that designation this year) and are a solid receiving-blocking combo; Testaverde, Glenn, and Johnson all oldest in the division at their respective positions

PHI has two Pro-Bowlers in McNabb and Owens and a rising star in L. J. Smith, WAS has the best overall depth in terms of WR's and QB's, the Giants have the best starting duo in terms of WR's and the best TE, and DAL has the best TE duo.

[Tio]

Gal, you are wrong on a lot of basis.

Mcnabb has the worst arm in the division, and have no recievers out of TO.

Brunnell has not been very good, and is getting the start because ramsey has been looking like a rookie Undrafted qb. Coles has not been the same since his toe injury, and will eventually have to bite the bullet and have surgery if he wants to get back on his elite status.

Kurt Warner is a statue. He has been looking at the rush in his last two years in St. Louis. Toomer and Hilliard are good, but they don't have competent qbs and the worst OL in the league.

[SALADIN]

More likely we'll be the worst in the division. Here's how I'd rank them:

PHI: Pro-Bowl QB D. McNabb best arm in division and best scrambling ability in league among QB's; backup QB Koy Detmer smart and reliable; Pro Bowl WR T. Owens (enough said); young secondary WR's Freddie Mitchell and Todd Pinkston should really thrive with a legitimate #1 drawing attention away from them - Pinkston could become younger version of Terry Glenn, a skinny frail WR with great speed and purely an outside threat; TE L. J. Smith is a rising star with good speed and great hands and is a future Pro Bowler soon

WAS: QB's Mark Brunell has average arm and decent scrambling ability; WAS has best backup QB's in division in Patrick Ramsay and Tim Hasselbeck who are both young yet still have game experience; WAS can go at least 4-deep in WR's with Laveranues Coles, Rod Gardner, Taylor Jacobs, and Damien McCants all young and tall with good hands and speed; TE Walter Rasby great blocker while rookie Chris Cooley has solid hands and decent speed

NYG: QB Kurt Warner has average arm and mediocre scrambling ability; backup QB Eli Manning raw; WR's Amani Toomer and Ike Hilliard best starting duo in division and relatively young; two solid backups should emerge from secondary WR's David Tyree, Tim Carter, and James McKnight; TE Jeremy Shockey best in division; backup TE Visanthe Shiancoe might be most athletic in division

DAL: QB Vinny Testaverde 2nd-best arm in division but least mobile QB; backups QB's Drew Henson and Tony Romo least tested in division; WR Keyshawn Johnson emerging as #1 and still great blocker; Terry Glenn big-play WR but strictly outside WR and frail; Antonio Bryant solid #2 or #3; TE's Jason Witten and Dan Campbell comprise best TE duo in division (although Shockey-Shancoe combo could challenge for that designation this year) and are a solid receiving-blocking combo; Testaverde, Glenn, and Johnson all oldest in the division at their respective positions

PHI has two Pro-Bowlers in McNabb and Owens and a rising star in L. J. Smith, WAS has the best overall depth in terms of WR's and QB's, the Giants have the best starting duo in terms of WR's and the best TE, and DAL has the best TE duo.

I love women who know their football! :cool:

great analysis!

[BillsFan]

Totally unbiased view from me.

McNabb...Those deep balls were impressive weren't they? Vinny looked great on MNF but you guys are kidding yourself if he can do that week to week. Also wanted to put good word in for Warner. He should be alright this season.

Dayne...He's looked the best in the preseason but it doesn't matter Portis is easily the finest RB in the division. Jones looks great, Eddie George will be fine also. He got owned last night but every RB does against Tennessee.

Owens and Keyshawn...TO is no surprise and to me neither is Key. The dude catches everything. Coles is one of my favorite receivers but he's been quiet in the preseason.

Witten...should really emerge this year.

Dallas defense... It's a no brainer the Cowboys have the best D in the division. I expected the Giants D to look much better. It doesn't...

[Hostile]

Hos it might seemed far fetched, but I agree with you for the most part.
Do you agree with me that we will be the bast Passing team this year?
I do think we have that potential in this division. We have 3 WRs who can all contribute, 2 TEs who can, and 3 RBs who seemingly can. I don't think any other team in the division has that.

[Hostile]

WR...Keyshawn Johnson (Can't believe I am saying that.)

Over Coles?
Yes, I am not a Keyshawn fan but there is no doubt he is an impact player. Coles is dinged up and Gibbs will throw less than Air Spurrier.

FS...Sean Taylor (Ball hawking rookie is for real.)

Over Dawkins??? Or because Dawkins hasn't played?
Because I consider Dawksins a SS and think Roy is better.

KR/PR...Chad Morton (He is less than advertised though. Room for Crayton to take this honor.)

Have you seen Reed in the preseason? Damn.
Notice at the top of my post I said this is what I think for the season. I don't care about the pre season. Never have, never will. It's like the Pro Bowl. Bunch of fluff that means nothing.

[AJM1613]

Because I consider Dawksins a SS and think Roy is better.
Dawkins is a FS, but he plays like both (he can step up into the box, cover a receiver, blitz...).


Notice at the top of my post I said this is what I think for the season. I don't care about the pre season. Never have, never will. It's like the Pro Bowl. Bunch of fluff that means nothing.

No I know, but I was just thinking outloud, or thinking writing down, or something like that.

[TobiasEagle77]

I do think we have that potential in this division. We have 3 WRs who can all contribute, 2 TEs who can, and 3 RBs who seemingly can. I don't think any other team in the division has that.
I would have to disagree, I think the Eagles can say the same.

3 WR: Pinkston is questionable, but he will undoubtably be a verticle threat. Mitchell is going to surprise people this year. Out of all the Eagles WR, none (not even T.O.) adjusts to McNabb's throws as well as Freddie Mitchell. T.O. will contribute without a doubt.

2 TE: Chad Lewis is Mr. Rock Steady. He's not a big playmaker, but he is as consistent as they come. L.J. Smith has potential as a playmaker, and will definitely contribute.

3 RB: Remember, we're talking about passing offense. Reno Mahe, Brian Westbrook, and Dorsey Levens are all good recieving backs. Dorsey Levens is good in pass protection. Brian Westbrook is a big play waiting to happen.

I also wouldn't count out the Giants. Even with they OL problems they have, their is alot of weapons in the passing game in NY.

[TheHustler]

HB: Portis



you have got to be kidding. Portis has like 40 yards for the entire preseason.

[SALADIN]

The kid has done well so far. The kick he does the spins backwards is called a drop punt and is used in aussie rules football. I cant believe there isn't more aussies than matt and Darren Bennett punting. There are so many guys playing Aussie rules football who kick for a living. An untapped resource just waiting to be explioted.

I've watched some Aussie Rules Football from time to time and have always been amazed at the ball control they use when they kick. I had been hoping for years for Bennett to shake loose one year.

McBride may be responsible for 1 or 2 wins this year with the kind of impact he can have on field position.

[BrAinPaiNt]

I think some are getting what they think will happen in Regular season.....with what the person asked for in the original thread.



give your all division team on who has looked best in the preseason.

I am not sure how some of the players on people lists (Portis) could qualify on that parameter when he has only had a few yards during the pre-season.

[Tio]

I would have to disagree, I think the Eagles can say the same.

3 WR: Pinkston is questionable, but he will undoubtably be a verticle threat. Mitchell is going to surprise people this year. Out of all the Eagles WR, none (not even T.O.) adjusts to McNabb's throws as well as Freddie Mitchell. T.O. will contribute without a doubt.

2 TE: Chad Lewis is Mr. Rock Steady. He's not a big playmaker, but he is as consistent as they come. L.J. Smith has potential as a playmaker, and will definitely contribute.

3 RB: Remember, we're talking about passing offense. Reno Mahe, Brian Westbrook, and Dorsey Levens are all good recieving backs. Dorsey Levens is good in pass protection. Brian Westbrook is a big play waiting to happen.

I also wouldn't count out the Giants. Even with they OL problems they have, their is alot of weapons in the passing game in NY.Pretty good points, but I consider any one who is using pinkston and mitchell in their arguments is reaching.

[Hostile]

I would have to disagree, I think the Eagles can say the same.
That's why they race horses. You can disagree, but I doubt you'll change my mind. Let's see how you do.

3 WR: Pinkston is questionable, but he will undoubtably be a verticle threat. Mitchell is going to surprise people this year. Out of all the Eagles WR, none (not even T.O.) adjusts to McNabb's throws as well as Freddie Mitchell. T.O. will contribute without a doubt.
I'll take Terrell Owens over any WR in the division. Give you the edge there and not even blink. There are easily 7 other WRs in the division that I would take over Pinkston or Mitchell. 3 of them are Cowboys WRs...Johnson, Glenn, and Bryant.

Spare me the platitudes about Mitchell surprising people. I am in Pac 10 country. I still can't believe the high price you paid for him.

Pinkston scares no one.

2 TE: Chad Lewis is Mr. Rock Steady. He's not a big playmaker, but he is as consistent as they come. L.J. Smith has potential as a playmaker, and will definitely contribute.
I never said they were bad. Better than Witten and Campbell? No sir. I have met Chad Lewis and like him, but he's not better than Witten by any wild stretch of the imagination.

3 RB: Remember, we're talking about passing offense. Reno Mahe, Brian Westbrook, and Dorsey Levens are all good recieving backs. Dorsey Levens is good in pass protection. Brian Westbrook is a big play waiting to happen.
Richie Anderson will likely have more receptions than all 3 of them put together. I don't necessarily dumping off to the FB, but he is a legit weapon.

Did you see the long line of suitors trying to outbid you on Levens? Man, the mad dash at Christmas a feww years ago for Tickle me Elmo was nothing like that. Come on man, take the blinders off. Just because you signed him as insurance doesn't make him a world beater.

I also wouldn't count out the Giants. Even with they OL problems they have, their is alot of weapons in the passing game in NY.
Actually I didn't count them out as I rank them ahead of your team in overall passing.

No doubt at all that McNabb to Owens rules supreme, but beyond Owens, not all that impressive.

[AJM1613]

I never said they were bad. Better than Witten and Campbell? No sir. I have met Chad Lewis and like him, but he's not better than Witten by any wild stretch of the imagination.

Chad Lewis is better than Campbell and Smith is better than Witten.

Get it now?

[Hostile]

Chad Lewis is better than Campbell and Smith is better than Witten.

Get it now?
You're out of your mind.

No way, no shape, no how.

[AJM1613]

You're out of your mind.

No way, no shape, no how.

The former Pro Bowler Lewis better than the Giant castoff or our young TE who had nearly identical numbers to your young TE but was drafted higher the same year?

Unless you think that preseason games mean anything. :rolleyes:

[Hostile]

The former Pro Bowler Lewis better than the Giant castoff or our young TE who had nearly identical numbers to your young TE but was drafted higher the same year?

Unless you think that preseason games mean anything. :rolleyes:
You apparently think draft status means something. :rolleyes:

It's really funny to me that your guy had 27 receptions and my lower drafted guy had 35. Not to mention the fact you had a WCO and a great QB and I had a scrub at QB. If you need me to explain the benefit of a TE in a WCO please just say the word.

Impressive draft status LJ. Way to go there buddy. Yee haw. You da man.

"Former" being the key word there. Jay Novacek was once a cast off too. I guess that made him less than what NFL experts think of the man? Give me a break. Shockey was the main guy and they drafted Vishante Shiancoe. That made Campbell expendable. It did not make him useless.

Wise up or take off the green glasses.

[AJM1613]

You apparently think draft status means something. :rolleyes:

It's really funny to me that your guy had 27 receptions and my lower drafted guy had 35. Not to mention the fact you had a WCO and a great QB and I had a scrub at QB. If you need me to explain the benefit of a TE in a WCO please just say the word.

Impressive draft status LJ. Way to go there buddy. Yee haw. You da man.

"Former" being the key word there. Jay Novacek was once a cast off too. I guess that made him less than what NFL experts think of the man? Give me a break. Shockey was the main guy and they drafted Vishante Shiancoe. That made Campbell expendable. It did not make him useless.

Wise up or take off the green glasses.

What does him "having the better QB" have to do with it? Yes McNabb is better than Carter, which is one reason why Carter should be going to his TE more, as a security blanket.

Smith had 27 receptions last season, yet he still had 321 yards (11.9 ypc). Witten on the other hand had 35 receptions but only 347 yards (9.9 ypc). When Smith got touches, he made more out of it, especially with a QB who (according to many on this board and the media) puts his receivers in a bad position with his throws, making yac tough.

Look at it this way:

Lewis (23) + Smith (27) had 50 total catches.
Campbell (20) + Witten (35) had 55 total catches.

Lewis (293) + Smith (321) had 614 total yards.
Campbell (195) + Witten (347) had 542 total yards.

Lewis (1) + Smith (1) had 2 total TDs.
Cambell (1) + Smith (1) had 2 total TDs.

Lewis (17) + Smith (15) had 32 total FDs.
Campbell (8) + Witten (18) had 26 total FDs.

Some how, your TEs had 5 fewer catches but 72 fewer yards and less FDs.

Based on stats, I would have to say that Lewis and Smith are better.

[Hostile]

What does him "having the better QB" have to do with it? Yes McNabb is better than Carter, which is one reason why Carter should be going to his TE more, as a security blanket.

Smith had 27 receptions last season, yet he still had 321 yards (11.9 ypc). Witten on the other hand had 35 receptions but only 347 yards (9.9 ypc). When Smith got touches, he made more out of it, especially with a QB who (according to many on this board and the media) puts his receivers in a bad position with his throws, making yac tough.

Look at it this way:

Lewis (23) + Smith (27) had 50 total catches.
Campbell (20) + Witten (35) had 55 total catches.

Lewis (293) + Smith (321) had 614 total yards.
Campbell (195) + Witten (347) had 542 total yards.

Lewis (1) + Smith (1) had 2 total TDs.
Cambell (1) + Smith (1) had 2 total TDs.

Lewis (17) + Smith (15) had 32 total FDs.
Campbell (8) + Witten (18) had 26 total FDs.

Some how, your TEs had 5 fewer catches but 72 fewer yards and less FDs.

Based on stats, I would have to say that Lewis and Smith are better.
Apparently I do need to explain WCO to you. Are you trying to tell me a bad QB is a benefit to a TE's production? Utterly ridiculous.

What does better QB have to do with it? Oh I don't know AJM, More likely to have a passing game. How old are you? (Serious question, not a slam.)

Do you remember Aikman to Novacek? Favre to Jackson? Elway to Sharpe? Montana to Jones? Stabler to Casper? Bledsoe to Coates? Two of those were not WCO matchups but still emphasize the power of a TE to a QB.

When you have a good QB a TE is far more dangerous than when you don't. Especially in a WCO because it is a medium range passing attack.

You can throw all kinds of eyed stats out there. I don't care. Lewis is past his effective life as a weapon unless he turns it on or finds the fountain of youth. He's no where near the blocker Campbell is and we won't even mention toughness. You are welcome to go find me even one GM or personnel guy in the NFL who prefers him over Campbell. I don't think you'll have any luck. Your fellow eagles fans can pat you on the back and you them that you have him. I know him, I like him, I wouldn't want him on my team at this rate. He's 32 and on the downhill slide while Campbell is 28 and in his prime.

How even an Eagles fan cannot appreciate how good Jason Witten is is beyond me. I'm not kidding you, beyond me. Here's a kid who had his jaw shattered last year, got it wired shut, lost a lot of weight on a liquid diet, and missed 1 game.

Like I said, no way, no shape, no how.

I told your compatriot that I would place Owens way above any WR in the division. I am clearly not a homer. I place Witten way above Smith and Lewis put together. Campbell is a throw in. BTW, did you know we had 4 TDs from our TEs, not just 2. Our LS, Jeff Robinson, also a TE caught 2 receptions last year and both were for scores.

[Tio]

Ajm is still trying to get the facts that draft status doesn't matter as much as production.

[AJM1613]

Keith Jackson was an Eagle and was our only offensive weapon besides Cunningham, and when he went to the Packers, he only had 53 catches in two seasons. He has played with three great QBs (Cunningham, Marino, Favre) so we can't use him as an example. Look at Shannon Sharpe.

Sharpe had 140 catches with Grbac and Dilfer as his QBs in two seasons with Baltimore. In his first 9 seasons with Denver (before he left), he averaged 61 catches a season.

I understand that a good/great TE would rather have a great QB like McNabb over Carter, but are you trying to suggest that Sharpe/Jackson/Novachek/Casper/Coates arn't really great TEs but are only as good as their QBs?

Campbell has never had more than 22 receptions in his career, Lewis' career high is 69, and has made the Pro Bowl twice in his career, which was only two seasons ago.

So explain to me what would make Smith/Lewis better than Witten/Campbell? Smith being a Cowboy? There stats are better, they both missed one game last season because of injury (Smith: Back; Witten: Jaw), and somehow Witten/Campbell are better because they don't play in a WCO?

And yes, I am young. ;)

[AJM1613]

Ajm is still trying to get the facts that draft status doesn't matter as much as production.

I am trying to get off that production doesn't mean as much as what system/QB the TEs play for.

[Chuck 54]

QB: McNabb
HB: Portis
FB: Anderson/Ritchie
WR: Owens
WR: Coles
TE: Shockey
LT: Adams/Samuels
LG: Mayberry/Allen
OC: Fraley I guess, weak position.
RG: Andrews???
RT: Runyan/Jansen (if healthy he is #1).

DE: Kearse
DT: Simon
DT: Glover
DE: Strahan
SL: Emmons
ML: Nguyen
WL: Arrington
CB: Newman
CB: Allen
FS: Taylor (Dawkins hasn't played).
SS: S. Williams

PK: Akers
P: McBriar/Feagles

LS: Bartrum
Can you believe these homers? I'd put McNabb and Brunell over Vinnie any day, and I'd likely put Warner and Vinnie in a neck and neck battle...one good preseason game and 1 td, suddenly he's better than McNabb...total insanity.

[Hostile]

Keith Jackson was an Eagle and was our only offensive weapon besides Cunningham, and when he went to the Packers, he only had 53 catches in two seasons. He has played with three great QBs (Cunningham, Marino, Favre) so we can't use him as an example. Look at Shannon Sharpe.

Sharpe had 140 catches with Grbac and Dilfer as his QBs in two seasons with Baltimore. In his first 9 seasons with Denver (before he left), he averaged 61 catches a season.

I understand that a good/great TE would rather have a great QB like McNabb over Carter, but are you trying to suggest that Sharpe/Jackson/Novachek/Casper/Coates arn't really great TEs but are only as good as their QBs?

Campbell has never had more than 22 receptions in his career, Lewis' career high is 69, and has made the Pro Bowl twice in his career, which was only two seasons ago.

So explain to me what would make Smith/Lewis better than Witten/Campbell? Smith being a Cowboy? There stats are better, they both missed one game last season because of injury (Smith: Back; Witten: Jaw), and somehow Witten/Campbell are better because they don't play in a WCO?

And yes, I am young. ;)
Dude, I am not a Cowboys homer. So that whiff about if they were Cowboys would that make them better isn't worth the time you took to think it was clever.

I actually meant Favre to Chmura. Jackson was a faux pas on my part. My apologies.

Campbell is not likely to ever have high receptions. That doesn't minimize his effectiveness.

You just made my argument for me and don't even realize it. Lewis had 69 receptions. Proof that a WCO uses a TE quite a lot.

I guess you place a lot of emphasis on stats for one year. I don't. We'll never agree on this and you'll never be right because your basis is off to even start.

FYI, some of the greatest TEs in NFL history NEVER had 69 receptions in one season. Look up Hall of Fame TEs if you doubt me. From there be my guest trying to prove to me that Lewis is better than them and deserves HOF consideration because of his stats.

There's a hell of a lot more to playing TE than numbers.

Witten is better. Sorry if that offends you but it is the truth.

[Chuck 54]

I'm thrilled with Witten, but no one is going to convince me that he's as good as Shockey...I hate Shockey only because he plays for a rival. Last season he was hurt all year. His rookie year was so incredibly better than Witten's it's not funny. We can love Witten all we want, but if Shockey returns healthy and plays the way he played as a rookie, Witten will NEVER see Hawaii....you can bank it.

[dargonking999]

I'm thrilled with Witten, but no one is going to convince me that he's as good as Shockey...I hate Shockey only because he plays for a rival. Last season he was hurt all year. His rookie year was so incredibly better than Witten's it's not funny. We can love Witten all we want, but if Shockey returns healthy and plays the way he played as a rookie, Witten will NEVER see Hawaii....you can bank it.
maybe cause thats who they threw too. our offense stunk last year so yea hes gonna look better. that a given. that is a usless stat i think whitten can be as good as shockey if not better

[AJM1613]

The year that Lewis had 69 receptions was McNabb's second year in the NFL, and he had terrible wide receivers (Pinkston and Thrash were bad, Johnson and Small were terrible). His offensive line wasn't as good as it is now (and that isn't saying much), and his starting HB was Darnell Autry. Lewis was the only decent player on this offense besides McNabb. Who would you throw too?

Casper (62), Ditka (75), Mackey(55), Newsome(89), Smith(56) and Winslow(89) are the only enshrined TEs. As you can see Mackey, Smith, and Casper have never had 69 receptions in their career, but their ypc is great (Jackey Smith had a 21.5 ypc, which is an unbelievable year). Everyone of them has over a 12 ypc. This kind of proves my point, ypc is more important than catches (Witten had more catches, Smith had a higher ypc).

As for Witten and Smith, all we have to go by is one season, that is there career right now, both have shown a lot of potential.

Even Chmura had a 12 ypc. ;)

[AJM1613]

I'm thrilled with Witten, but no one is going to convince me that he's as good as Shockey...I hate Shockey only because he plays for a rival. Last season he was hurt all year. His rookie year was so incredibly better than Witten's it's not funny. We can love Witten all we want, but if Shockey returns healthy and plays the way he played as a rookie, Witten will NEVER see Hawaii....you can bank it.

I think that that all depends on Crumpler, two TEs go to Hawaii.

Last season it was Crumpler and Franks, who is terribly overrated. 8.0 yards per catch last season with Favre as your QB? Damn. Only 30 catches...

If Shockey isn't healthy, I believe that Smith and Witten are the next two in line, if they start.

[Chuck 54]

maybe cause thats who they threw too. our offense stunk last year so yea hes gonna look better. that a given. that is a usless stat i think whitten can be as good as shockey if not better

Come on man, that's bogus BS...Shockey wasn't the only rookie to go to the pro bowl that year because the Giants threw to him...what a crock...He was making some of the most athletic catches anyone had seen in the NFL from a TE in many a year...he was igniting an entire team with his spirited play...he running with the ball like a man possessed, and he was beating and taunting CB's and S's alike who couldn't begin to cover him in the red zone.

Witten is going to be a very good TE, maybe even great as his blocking improves, but he doesn't possess the athleticism of Shockey and hasn't made one catch that I can remember that would make Shockey's highlight reel.

We don't have to pretend we have the best players at every position...we don't have the best TE, QB, RB, or WR in our division....we do have the best coach, I think, and the best LT....you give every gm in the NFL a choice between a healthy Shockey and a healthy Witten, and I don't think there's even 1 that passes on Shockey for Witten, and they don't go by stats, but what they see on Sundays.

[Hostile]

Come on man, that's bogus BS...Shockey wasn't the only rookie to go to the pro bowl that year because the Giants threw to him...what a crock...He was making some of the most athletic catches anyone had seen in the NFL from a TE in many a year...he was igniting an entire team with his spirited play...he running with the ball like a man possessed, and he was beating and taunting CB's and S's alike who couldn't begin to cover him in the red zone.

Witten is going to be a very good TE, maybe even great as his blocking improves, but he doesn't possess the athleticism of Shockey and hasn't made one catch that I can remember that would make Shockey's highlight reel.

We don't have to pretend we have the best players at every position...we don't have the best TE, QB, RB, or WR in our division....we do have the best coach, I think, and the best LT....you give every gm in the NFL a choice between a healthy Shockey and a healthy Witten, and I don't think there's even 1 that passes on Shockey for Witten, and they don't go by stats, but what they see on Sundays.
I agree with that Wayne.

I listed Witten over Shockey because of the injury concerns. No other reason.

I also say Witten would get that same consideration over any of the other TEs. AJM can't take off the green glasses long enough to realize that.

[Chuck 54]

I agree with that Wayne.

I listed Witten over Shockey because of the injury concerns. No other reason.

I also say Witten would get that same consideration over any of the other TEs. AJM can't take off the green glasses long enough to realize that.
I hear ya hostile...I should have clicked the quote button instead of reply because i was responding to dragon saying Shockey had better stats because the Giants threw to him a lot....

I mean I loved Aikman, but he couldn't carry a team like Favre...that's not a cut on Aikman and this isn't a cut on Witten.

I definitely don't see how anyone can say Vinnie is the best QB in our division though...lol...it's going to be an interesting season...I just hope Vinnie doesn't fade the way I think he will.

[AJM1613]

WR...Keyshawn Johnson (Can't believe I am saying that.)

What color are your glasses? http://eagles.hosttown.com/html/emoticons/whistling.gif

Last two seasons:

Coles: 171 catches, 2468 yards, 11 TDs.
Johnson: 121 catches, 1688 yards, 8 TDs.

GBG:

Coles: 5.34 catches, 77.13 yards, .344 TDs.
Johnson: 4.65 catches, 64.92 yards, .307 TDs

[BillsFan]

I think they are saying Vinny has looked the best in the preseason Wayne. Not the best QB in the division.

[LaTunaNostra]

Witten doesn't have Shockey's athleticism, Gonzalez's speed or Sharpe's ability to get open (yet). Winslow has more "potential". But I think Jason has the makings of a Pro Bowl TE, an all around, complete TE.

He's what? Just 21 now? Very fast learner, hard worker, quickly learned routes and polished them, and is improving his blocking. There will be plays Shockey makes Jason will never make, but JW's consistency, grit, and smarts spell out Parcells Guy in caps. You can see the former high school linebacker in him in every play. Right there we have in one player Tuna's two "favorite positions". And there couldn't be a better tutor for him than Pete "Old school" Campbell.

Shockey has a superior size-speed ratio, and amazing agility for a man that size. But Jason has ideal size for the all around TE. And he's got brains.

One thing I've noticed in Jason is this kid can absorb the type of hits you take over the middle and still hold onto the ball. He appears to have very VERY soft hands. Since running TE routes means you are going to get hit simultaneously as you catch, this characteristic is key.

All homerism aside, Witten is superior to Shockey in this essential TE attribute. Shockey drops many passes that Jason, based on last year and this summer, holds onto. Shockey drops. Witten doesn't.

This kid also gets downfield faster than you might expect. That means he can both provide a deeper field option, and more importantly block for the receivers further donwfield. It's early yet, but I think he has the makings of a whole field threat. No, not in the way Gonzalez is, but in the mode of a TE who can magnet defenders to any area of the field, and has sufficient speed and body control, and most importantly, sure hands, to play the whole field.

His blocking is going to take some time as at his size it will be technique over girth blocking, but that too seems to be improving rapidly.

Folks talk about the talent they see in Bryant. Well, I see it in Jason. Of course, he will not be able to do the things Shockey will (four or five times a season) but I'd lay money now on who will have the most EARNED Pro Bowls ten years from now.

I also rate him above Todd Heap, who has gotten considerable hype.

[blindzebra]

Witten doesn't have Shockey's athleticism, Gonzalez's speed or Sharpe's ability to get open (yet). Winslow has more "potential". But I think Jason has the makings of a Pro Bowl TE, an all around, complete TE.

He's what? Just 21 now? Very fast learner, hard worker, quickly learned routes and polished them, and is improving his blocking. There will be plays Shockey makes Jason will never make, but JW's consistency, grit, and smarts spell out Parcells Guy in caps. You can see the former high school linebacker in him in every play. Right there we have in one player Tuna's two "favorite positions". And there couldn't be a better tutor for him than Pete "Old school" Campbell.

Shockey has a superior size-speed ratio, and amazing agility for a man that size. But Jason has ideal size for the all around TE. And he's got brains.

One thing I've noticed in Jason is this kid can absorb the type of hits you take over the middle and still hold onto the ball. He appears to have very VERY soft hands. Since running TE routes means you are going to get hit simultaneously as you catch, this characteristic is key.

All homerism aside, Witten is superior to Shockey in this essential TE attribute. Shockey drops many passes that Jason, based on last year and this summer, holds onto. Shockey drops. Witten doesn't.

This kid also gets downfield faster than you might expect. That means he can both provide a deeper field option, and more importantly block for the receivers further donwfield. It's early yet, but I think he has the makings of a whole field threat. No, not in the way Gonzalez is, but in the mode of a TE who can magnet defenders to any area of the field, and has sufficient speed and body control, and most importantly, sure hands, to play the whole field.

His blocking is going to take some time as at his size it will be technique over girth blocking, but that too seems to be improving rapidly.

Folks talk about the talent they see in Bryant. Well, I see it in Jason. Of course, he will not be able to do the things Shockey will (four or five times a season) but I'd lay money now on who will have the most EARNED Pro Bowls ten years from now.

I also rate him above Todd Heap, who has gotten considerable hype.

Something to look at about Witten. On the big gain he got a clean release off the LOS and he was dead even with Glenn for 10 yards. He's not that far behind the top guys in speed and athleticism.

[LaTunaNostra]

Something to look at about Witten. On the big gain he got a clean release off the LOS and he was dead even with Glenn for 10 yards. He's not that far behind the top guys in speed and athleticism.
No, he's not.

And he's ahead in soft hands, probably just slightly below Shockey in body control (that's Jeremy's exceptional skill imo), superior in toughness (that 'tude with the broken jaw said it all), and in precision route running I'd guess superior.

He isn't going to freelance, cut off routes, or get antsy.

I like to keep an eye on him as he walks to the huddle and stands in it waiting for the QB to set - watch who he talks to, invariably - who he is always exchanging words with.

[Tio]

What color are your glasses? http://eagles.hosttown.com/html/emoticons/whistling.gif

Last two seasons:

Coles: 171 catches, 2468 yards, 11 TDs.
Johnson: 121 catches, 1688 yards, 8 TDs.

GBG:

Coles: 5.34 catches, 77.13 yards, .344 TDs.
Johnson: 4.65 catches, 64.92 yards, .307 TDsKeyshawn has missed 6 games.

[Hostile]

I hear ya hostile...I should have clicked the quote button instead of reply because i was responding to dragon saying Shockey had better stats because the Giants threw to him a lot....

I mean I loved Aikman, but he couldn't carry a team like Favre...that's not a cut on Aikman and this isn't a cut on Witten.

I definitely don't see how anyone can say Vinnie is the best QB in our division though...lol...it's going to be an interesting season...I just hope Vinnie doesn't fade the way I think he will.
It's the nature of fandom.

[Smith22]

I also rate him above Todd Heap, who has gotten considerable hype.
He has earned the hype with around 120 catches and 9TD's over the last 2 seasons with nothing but trash surrounding him at WR. I like Witten and his potential as much as the next fan, but Heap is far more proven at this point.

[Tio]

AJM, if you haven't noticed, Coles has drastically declined since the Toe Injury. He will eventually have to bite the bullet and have surgery.

[blindzebra]

Gonzalez and Heap are much better than the next group of TEs, which would include Crumpler and Shockey. The youngsters Witten, Clark, Smith and Winslow would be the next level.

[AJM1613]

Keyshawn has missed 6 games.

GBG=Game By Game

[LaTunaNostra]

He has earned the hype with around 120 catches and 9TD's over the last 2 seasons with nothing but trash surrounding him at WR. I like Witten and his potential as much as the next fan, but Heap is far more proven at this point.
I am not talking about stats.

But about skills/talent.

Heap has no more of either than Jason.

[Smith22]

Your 1 liner on Heap made it sound like he hasn't earned the "hype" he has received so far. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

[LaTunaNostra]

Gonzalez and Heap are much better than the next group of TEs, which would include Crumpler and Shockey. The youngsters Witten, Clark, Smith and Winslow would be the next level.
Randy MacMichael I'd put in there too.

[AJM1613]

Randy MacMichael I'd put in there too.

Freddie Jones too.

[DCowboysGal]

Freddie Jones has all the talent in the world. If he could get his act together, he'd be up there too.

[Hostile]

What color are your glasses? http://eagles.hosttown.com/html/emoticons/whistling.gif

Last two seasons:

Coles: 171 catches, 2468 yards, 11 TDs.
Johnson: 121 catches, 1688 yards, 8 TDs.

GBG:

Coles: 5.34 catches, 77.13 yards, .344 TDs.
Johnson: 4.65 catches, 64.92 yards, .307 TDs
Kid, learn to read. My first post I said these were my predictions for the 2004 season. I wasn't talking about pre season. I made that really clear. I don't give a flying crap about what people have done in the pre season.

I'm not talking about previous seasons either. My post was what I believe for 2004. If you still don't understand that then please tell me so I can beat it into your skull.

You asked me some questions and I answered them. Now you're trying to change my mind about what I am predicting and using past season nonsense to do it. You'd have better luck trying to shove hot butter up an unchained wildcat's a** with a hot poker under an Arizona July desert sun than to get me to change my prediction about an upcoming season.

You can disagree with my predictions all you want. I could care less. I'll even discuss why I predict it this way if you wish. This I have tried in vain to do, all the while hoping you'd get the idea that you and your limited scope and opinion is NOT going to influence my opinion.

I can't belive you are even trying. It's about as stupid a tactic as I have ever come across. I should consider the source.



Now let's go back to school and address what you just accused me of doing.



I don't even like Keyshawn that much. By all means go find my posts when we were trading for him. Or ask anyone who knows me. I am not a fan of his. By any wide stretch of the imagination. Are you with me yet?

Coles injury has me concerned. Gibbs does not throw the ball as much as Spurrier. For this reason I think Coles production will slip a little. I also said that Keyshawn is an impact player. Especially under Parcells and with Vinny Testaverde. You still following?

Thus for 2004 I predict that Keyshawn will be one of the 2 most productive WRs in the division. Clear as mud?

In a separate discussion, based on your wild meanderings and up in arms Eagles homerism, I said Witten is a better TE than Smith. For 2004 and in general. Is the fog beginning to lift yet? I'll be glad to find you a lighthouse if you are still wandering around lost.

The problem is you get stuck on one subject (the Eagles) then try to put all of the other things said by anyone back to that one subject (the Eagles). That's called being a homer Junior. I haven't done anything of the sort here. If you've got actual evidence by all means whip it out. Blind me for a change.

I chose players from all over the division based on what I think they will do in 2004. If you've got problems with that I can't help you. If you want my explanations, ask. When I explain if it is still unclear ask for clarification.

Are we done?

[Hostile]

Witten doesn't have Shockey's athleticism, Gonzalez's speed or Sharpe's ability to get open (yet). Winslow has more "potential". But I think Jason has the makings of a Pro Bowl TE, an all around, complete TE.

He's what? Just 21 now? Very fast learner, hard worker, quickly learned routes and polished them, and is improving his blocking. There will be plays Shockey makes Jason will never make, but JW's consistency, grit, and smarts spell out Parcells Guy in caps. You can see the former high school linebacker in him in every play. Right there we have in one player Tuna's two "favorite positions". And there couldn't be a better tutor for him than Pete "Old school" Campbell.

Shockey has a superior size-speed ratio, and amazing agility for a man that size. But Jason has ideal size for the all around TE. And he's got brains.

One thing I've noticed in Jason is this kid can absorb the type of hits you take over the middle and still hold onto the ball. He appears to have very VERY soft hands. Since running TE routes means you are going to get hit simultaneously as you catch, this characteristic is key.

All homerism aside, Witten is superior to Shockey in this essential TE attribute. Shockey drops many passes that Jason, based on last year and this summer, holds onto. Shockey drops. Witten doesn't.

This kid also gets downfield faster than you might expect. That means he can both provide a deeper field option, and more importantly block for the receivers further donwfield. It's early yet, but I think he has the makings of a whole field threat. No, not in the way Gonzalez is, but in the mode of a TE who can magnet defenders to any area of the field, and has sufficient speed and body control, and most importantly, sure hands, to play the whole field.

His blocking is going to take some time as at his size it will be technique over girth blocking, but that too seems to be improving rapidly.

Folks talk about the talent they see in Bryant. Well, I see it in Jason. Of course, he will not be able to do the things Shockey will (four or five times a season) but I'd lay money now on who will have the most EARNED Pro Bowls ten years from now.

I also rate him above Todd Heap, who has gotten considerable hype.
Flat out excellent post. Couldn't have said it any better. A perfect illustration of what I was talking about.

[AJM1613]

This was your exact quote:

"This is who I think will be best, not who has looked best in PS."

"Think will be best" to me means "think will be the best player", which translates to "Johnson will be better than Coles". Will he put up better numbers? Maybe.

I never brougth up the Smith/Lewis vs. Witten/Campbell debate, it was that other Eagle fan, I was just defending my players because the way you made it sound was "Witten/Campbell are so much better".

Obviously, last season Smith/Lewis had the better year, catching 5 fewer passes, but having 72 more yards.

Then you brought up the HOF/great TEs in the past (Casper, Ditka, Mackey, Newsome, Smith, Sharpe, Gonzalez, and Winslow). The one thing that all of these TEs had in comon was that they all have over a 12 yards per catch for there career.

Do I think that Smith/Lewis are a great pair of TEs? No, but they have proved that they can be very productive, more productive than Witten/Campbell. Because the Cowboy fans on this board seem to think that Witten is the second coming of Novacek/Ditka (similar to their view on AB and Irvin, Jones and Smith).

Because I don't think that Witten is in the same category as Gonzalez and Heap I am branded a homer?

Because I think that Coles (a top 10 receiver) will be more preductive than Johnson because he is the better receiver and still in his prime, you treat me like I have no idea what I am talking about? Coles is a Redskin, I am not exactly a Redskin fan if you havn't noticed, it is an unbias view because I despise both your teams a lot.

Do you even remember ever seeing Smith play? Ever see his speed? Remember his 98 yard game last season? I doubt it because you really don't give him any respect, while at the same time, giving all your high praises to Witten. One year ago at this time, draft people all over the country had Smith valued over Witten, and since then I havn't seen anything to change my judgement, their numbers are very similar and they look like they have similar potential, why would I change my judgement on this issue? Because of Monday night's game? As you said, preseason doesn't mean ****.

Every time I come onto this site I am called a homer because I don't think that every Cowboy player is a potential Pro Bowler. Go back and reread what I wrote, all I said was "Smith > Witten" which probably sounds as bad as "Witten > Smith" to me, and you ****ing flip over it.

I am a homer because I think our second year TE who has been just as productive as your second year TE, our All-Pro FS is better than your All-Pro FS, your second year CB shouldn't be proclaimed a top 5 CB yet, and my QB is an elite top 5-7 QB.

Is there any Eagle fan in the world that doesn't agree with me on this? It comes with the damn territory.

In case you have been dead the past few seasons, we have the better team, your team right now is crawling out of the gutter, ours is attempting to take the next step to a Super Bowl. BIG DIFFERENCE.

In case you havn't noticed, we have the most cap room in the NFL the next three season, the most players signed in the NFL the next three seasons, and the third youngest team in the NFL (according to a post on our MB, I asked him his source but he never got back to me, don't hold me to it, but if it isn't true, it is pretty damn close). We just signed one of the top 4 receivers in the NFL, a top 5 DE, one of the most successful DE in the history of our franchise (77 career sacks), and our former Pro Bowl MLB to be a backup. I have a right to be a little overly confident.

**** it, I'm going to bed.

[Chuck 54]

Witten doesn't have Shockey's athleticism, Gonzalez's speed or Sharpe's ability to get open (yet). Winslow has more "potential". But I think Jason has the makings of a Pro Bowl TE, an all around, complete TE.

He's what? Just 21 now? Very fast learner, hard worker, quickly learned routes and polished them, and is improving his blocking. There will be plays Shockey makes Jason will never make, but JW's consistency, grit, and smarts spell out Parcells Guy in caps. You can see the former high school linebacker in him in every play. Right there we have in one player Tuna's two "favorite positions". And there couldn't be a better tutor for him than Pete "Old school" Campbell.

Shockey has a superior size-speed ratio, and amazing agility for a man that size. But Jason has ideal size for the all around TE. And he's got brains.

One thing I've noticed in Jason is this kid can absorb the type of hits you take over the middle and still hold onto the ball. He appears to have very VERY soft hands. Since running TE routes means you are going to get hit simultaneously as you catch, this characteristic is key.

All homerism aside, Witten is superior to Shockey in this essential TE attribute. Shockey drops many passes that Jason, based on last year and this summer, holds onto. Shockey drops. Witten doesn't.

This kid also gets downfield faster than you might expect. That means he can both provide a deeper field option, and more importantly block for the receivers further donwfield. It's early yet, but I think he has the makings of a whole field threat. No, not in the way Gonzalez is, but in the mode of a TE who can magnet defenders to any area of the field, and has sufficient speed and body control, and most importantly, sure hands, to play the whole field.

His blocking is going to take some time as at his size it will be technique over girth blocking, but that too seems to be improving rapidly.

Folks talk about the talent they see in Bryant. Well, I see it in Jason. Of course, he will not be able to do the things Shockey will (four or five times a season) but I'd lay money now on who will have the most EARNED Pro Bowls ten years from now.

I also rate him above Todd Heap, who has gotten considerable hype.
I guess it's a good thing I'm not the gm, then, cause I'd trade Witten for Shockey so fast everyone would forget Witten's number before he got out the door. I have high hopes for the kid, and I like him, but I don't think his career will put him in the same breath as Shockey...that's my opinion.

[Tio]

GBG=Game By GameYou also have to take into affect that keyshawn had better targets around him getting the ball. And spurrirer's system was reciever friendly.

[Tio]

Ok ajm, time to correct you(again)This was your exact quote:

"This is who I think will be best, not who has looked best in PS."

"Think will be best" to me means "think will be the best player", which translates to "Johnson will be better than Coles". Will he put up better numbers? Maybe.
Hos thinks so, its a prediction. I think the cowboys will go farther than the eagles in the playoffs, and no amount of stats will change my mind.
I never brougth up the Smith/Lewis vs. Witten/Campbell debate, it was that other Eagle fan, I was just defending my players because the way you made it sound was "Witten/Campbell are so much better".I would take witten over your te's too, and campbell is the best blocker in the bunch.

Obviously, last season Smith/Lewis had the better year, catching 5 fewer passes, but having 72 more yards.
Obviously? I consider receptions more important than yards(unless its a dramatic difference) because it is more important to an offenses flow and helps the team more.
Then you brought up the HOF/great TEs in the past (Casper, Ditka, Mackey, Newsome, Smith, Sharpe, Gonzalez, and Winslow). The one thing that all of these TEs had in comon was that they all have over a 12 yards per catch for there career.
You are very obsessed with YPC. And now that witten is going to be more synchranyzed in the offense, you will notice it go up.
Do I think that Smith/Lewis are a great pair of TEs? No, but they have proved that they can be very productive, more productive than Witten/Campbell. Blocking terms to? Doubt it. Because the Cowboy fans on this board seem to think that Witten is the second coming of Novacek/Ditka (similar to their view on AB and Irvin, Jones and Smith).
Very few are giving him that much hype. They think he can be the second coming. Same with AB. Can and will be are a big difference.
Because I don't think that Witten is in the same category as Gonzalez and Heap I am branded a homer?No, because you are slanting a lot of view to your TE's. Because you are only talking about how good your tes are.
[/quote]Because I think that Coles (a top 10 receiver) will be more preductive than Johnson because he is the better receiver and still in his prime, you treat me like I have no idea what I am talking about? Coles is a Redskin, I am not exactly a Redskin fan if you havn't noticed, it is an unbias view because I despise both your teams a lot.Uhh, no. But you are being stupid about it. Coles has a toe injury that has hindered his play and made him very mediocre. Also,gibbs will not throw as much as spurier would.
[quote]
Do you even remember ever seeing Smith play? Ever see his speed? Remember his 98 yard game last season? I doubt it because you really don't give him any respect, while at the same time, giving all your high praises to Witten. One year ago at this time, draft people all over the country had Smith valued over Witten, and since then I havn't seen anything to change my judgement, their numbers are very similar and they look like they have similar potential, why would I change my judgement on this issue? Because of Monday night's game? As you said, preseason doesn't mean ****.
No, change it because Witten was the best rookie TE last year, and he wasn't intigrated in the offense until the Carolina game. Just shows how easily he beat every other rookie TE.
Every time I come onto this site I am called a homer because I don't think that every Cowboy player is a potential Pro Bowler. Go back and reread what I wrote, all I said was "Smith > Witten" which probably sounds as bad as "Witten > Smith" to me, and you ****ing flip over it.No, you are called a homer because of your posts about westbrook, and how you ignore your glaring weaknesses.

I am a homer because I think our second year TE who has been just as productive as your second year TE, our All-Pro FS is better than your All-Pro FS, your second year CB shouldn't be proclaimed a top 5 CB yet, and my QB is an elite top 5-7 QB.
Ahh, so now he is 7...No, you are a homer because our rookie TE has outperformed your rookie TE. Glad you realized how wrong you were on mcnabb.
Is there any Eagle fan in the world that doesn't agree with me on this? It comes with the damn territory.

In case you have been dead the past few seasons, we have the better team, your team right now is crawling out of the gutter, ours is attempting to take the next step to a Super Bowl. BIG DIFFERENCE.LOL, your team had its chance. You have lost most of the defense that has carried you to the championship games. You should have added a reciever 1-2 years earlier. Stupid reid.

In case you havn't noticed, we have the most cap room in the NFL the next three season, the most players signed in the NFL the next three seasons, and the third youngest team in the NFL (according to a post on our MB, I asked him his source but he never got back to me, don't hold me to it, but if it isn't true, it is pretty damn close). We just signed one of the top 4 receivers in the NFL, a top 5 DE, one of the most successful DE in the history of our franchise (77 career sacks), and our former Pro Bowl MLB to be a backup. I have a right to be a little overly confident.

.This is why you are a homer. Why do you have that cap room? Because you let go of one of the best CB tandems, a lb and rb that are the hear and sole of your team. And our likely to let go of a very good dt.

[LaTunaNostra]

I guess it's a good thing I'm not the gm, then, cause I'd trade Witten for Shockey so fast everyone would forget Witten's number before he got out the door. I have high hopes for the kid, and I like him, but I don't think his career will put him in the same breath as Shockey...that's my opinion.
Wayne, I'd do the same. Shockey is just too rare an athletic talent, perhaps as much a freak at his position as Vick is at his. Interesting that questions of can they both stay healthy apply. But I would have to make that trade too.

And probably regret it because I went with 'unusual' athleticism over consistency, durability, exceptional maturity, and al around solid play.

Only time will tell.

[blindzebra]

Wayne, I'd do the same. Shockey is just too rare an athletic talent, perhaps as much a freak at his position as Vick is at his. Interesting that questions of can they both stay healthy apply. But I would have to make that trade too.

And probably regret it because I went with 'unusual' athleticism over consistency, durability, exceptional maturity, and al around solid play.

Only time will tell.

I would not want Shockey. He's caught plenty of passes, but he has 4 TDs and 3 lost fumbles. He is a major head case, and he can not stay healthy.

[DCowboysGal]

IMO, Tony Gonzalez is the best TE out there by far. Super production, awesome athleticism, super hands, decent blocking ability, mentally stable, etc.

[RatisBeast]

IMO, Tony Gonzalez is the best TE out there by far. Super production, awesome athleticism, super hands, decent blocking ability, mentally stable, etc.
Agreed, although Winslow will challenge him in a short time. Gonzalez has to be the best right now without a doubt. Heap is 2nd IMO.

[TobiasEagle77]

I place Witten way above Smith and Lewis put together.
Based on this statement, I'd say you've got a little bit of Homer in you. Not any more than I do though.

I wasn't even trying to say the Eagles recieving corps is better than the Cowboys (though it is debatable). I was only trying to say that the Cowboys are not the only ones who have 3 legitament WRs, 2 good TEs, and 3 good recieving backs.

Most of what you said is legit.

As far as Richie Anderson getting more receptions than the Eagles HBs put together, I definitely don't see that happening. Last year:
Anderson: 69 rec, 493 yds
Staley + Westbrook + Buckhalter: 83 rec, 847 yds

It is likely some production will be lost (from Staley), but Westy will get more touches and Mahe/Levens will get some too. I don't see how that gap could be closed.

[Az Lurker]

[QUOTE=TobiasEagle77
Most of what you said is legit.

As far as Richie Anderson getting more receptions than the Eagles HBs put together, I definitely don't see that happening. Last year:
Anderson: 69 rec, 493 yds
Staley + Westbrook + Buckhalter: 83 rec, 847 yds

It is likely some production will be lost (from Staley), but Westy will get more touches and Mahe/Levens will get some too. I don't see how that gap could be closed.[/QUOTE]

thats only a 14 catch differance, with Staley and Buckhalter gone, thats a very very reasonable gap to close. Especially now that Anderson is the 3rd down back in addition to being a part time FB and getting more play as a RB.

[DCowboysGal]

Based on this statement, I'd say you've got a little bit of Homer in you. Not any more than I do though.

I wasn't even trying to say the Eagles recieving corps is better than the Cowboys (though it is debatable). I was only trying to say that the Cowboys are not the only ones who have 3 legitament WRs, 2 good TEs, and 3 good recieving backs.

Most of what you said is legit.

As far as Richie Anderson getting more receptions than the Eagles HBs put together, I definitely don't see that happening. Last year:
Anderson: 69 rec, 493 yds
Staley + Westbrook + Buckhalter: 83 rec, 847 yds

It is likely some production will be lost (from Staley), but Westy will get more touches and Mahe/Levens will get some too. I don't see how that gap could be closed.

L. J. Smith has great speed for a TE. 3rd-stringer Kori Dickerson is pretty athletic too while Chad Lewis is Mr. Reliable. That's a pretty good TE corps there.

[Hostile]

This was your exact quote:

"This is who I think will be best, not who has looked best in PS."

"Think will be best" to me means "think will be the best player", which translates to "Johnson will be better than Coles". Will he put up better numbers? Maybe.

See, I'm not that cryptic after all.

Because I don't think that Witten is in the same category as Gonzalez and Heap I am branded a homer?
No, I called you a homer because you constantly feel the need to promote what your team is doing or who they've signed and how this will make them better than us yet again. It's the constant little subtle digs.

Do you even remember ever seeing Smith play? Ever see his speed? Remember his 98 yard game last season? I doubt it because you really don't give him any respect, while at the same time, giving all your high praises to Witten. One year ago at this time, draft people all over the country had Smith valued over Witten, and since then I havn't seen anything to change my judgement, their numbers are very similar and they look like they have similar potential, why would I change my judgement on this issue? Because of Monday night's game? As you said, preseason doesn't mean ****.
Yes, I've seen him play. Yes, I think he's very fast for a TE. Yes, I like his game. He's all that and Oreo Cookie ice cream good. I just don't think he is as good an "All Around TE" as Jason Witten. Pass blocking, run blocking, receiving, etc.

Every time I come onto this site I am called a homer because I don't think that every Cowboy player is a potential Pro Bowler.
Wrong. You are called a homer because you try and make the Eagles a topic on this forum. You think they're better. Trust me, we all get it.

In case you have been dead the past few seasons, we have the better team, your team right now is crawling out of the gutter, ours is attempting to take the next step to a Super Bowl. BIG DIFFERENCE.
That's what I am talking about. You seem to think that we need to bow down to where your team is right now. We know where oyur team is. They are occupying the spot we want. Top of the division and top of the Confernce. Again, everybody gets that. You can stop banging that drum.

You know how you hate to hear about the empty trophy case or the last 3 years? Consider where you are. If I went to your board and said those things I'd get banned. You're a prolific poster on here and the grief you are catching is form the fan base, not from the Administration of this forum.

In case you havn't noticed, we have the most cap room in the NFL the next three season, the most players signed in the NFL the next three seasons, and the third youngest team in the NFL (according to a post on our MB, I asked him his source but he never got back to me, don't hold me to it, but if it isn't true, it is pretty damn close). We just signed one of the top 4 receivers in the NFL, a top 5 DE, one of the most successful DE in the history of our franchise (77 career sacks), and our former Pro Bowl MLB to be a backup. I have a right to be a little overly confident.
Oh joy. Oh rapture. I can gauge how much I care about quite easily. I'll stick my hand in a bucket of water and remove it. The hole in the water is how much I care.

[AJM1613]

No, I called you a homer because you constantly feel the need to promote what your team is doing or who they've signed and how this will make them better than us yet again. It's the constant little subtle digs.


Like what? Please share with me.


Yes, I've seen him play. Yes, I think he's very fast for a TE. Yes, I like his game. He's all that and Oreo Cookie ice cream good. I just don't think he is as good an "All Around TE" as Jason Witten. Pass blocking, run blocking, receiving, etc.

He put up better numbers and has shown (to me) the same potential that Witten shows you. The same potential that were the makeups of the greats, the yac, great routes and athletic ability. No, his hands don't appear to be as good (three drops last season), but he is a fine blocker, not as much as a liability as Chad Lewis was earlier in his career.


Wrong. You are called a homer because you try and make the Eagles a topic on this forum. You think they're better. Trust me, we all get it.


I very rarely bring them up any more, (I didn't start this Witten/Smith debate, you and that Eagle fan did), but if I read something that I don't agree with (Witten>Smith), I will chime in.

That's what I am talking about. You seem to think that we need to bow down to where your team is right now. We know where oyur team is. They are occupying the spot we want. Top of the division and top of the Confernce. Again, everybody gets that. You can stop banging that drum.


I stoped banging that drum a while ago. I do believe that we have the better team, so do 95% of non-Cowboy NFL fans in the coutry do, but as I said, if I hear someone bash my team, or say something I don't agree with, I will voice my opinion. (ex: I posted a post in a thread about the Steeler game last week, and gave my opinion on it, and then I was called out because I didn't agree with one of the PI calls and was called a homer. The post was critical).

You know how you hate to hear about the empty trophy case or the last 3 years? Consider where you are. If I went to your board and said those things I'd get banned. You're a prolific poster on here and the grief you are catching is form the fan base, not from the Administration of this forum.
I posted this post at 1:00 AM last night, tired, got pissed, and fliped out in my post. Sorry. I actually went back soon after and edited it of a lot of "derogatory coments". ;)

And no if you went to my board and said the same things you wouldn't get banned, the mods could care less, but you would get bashed.

[Tio]

Like what? Please share with me.
http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6917

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6883
.I found this in 30 seconds. Want more?

[kmd24]

our young TE who had nearly identical numbers to your young TE but was drafted higher the same year?


It is worth pointing out that Witten was rated as a high-to-mid second round talent. It was interesting to some observers why Philly chose LJ Smith over Witten. I think the fact that he was a relatively local product (Rutgers) may have played a little bit of a role there.

Witten was a second round talent that had Dallas jumping for joy when he slipped to the third round (mostly because the Texans selected Michigan's Joppru). Smith was the 3rd TE taken (Clark, Joppru) and Witten was the fourth. They were selected 7 picks apart (61 overall, 68 overall).

Don't get it into your head that Smith was consistently rated higher than Witten:

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/archives/2003/03rankings.html
http://football.about.com/cs/terankings/
http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/6295740
http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Insider/2003/Printout1ROP.htm
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfldraft/story?page=te_rankings
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2003/draft/breakdowns/by_position/te.html

I believe Witten is ranked well above Smith in all those pre-draft rankings. His fall to the third round is one of the greatest coups in Dallas's recent draft history, allowing Dallas to grab Al Johnson in the second round yet still nab their desired TE in the third. No one thought Witten would still be around that late.

As for the yards per catch, I would argue that Philadelphia works Smith deeper down the field than Dallas did with Witten, primarily because Bill Parcells doesn't like to throw down the middle with QB's that have a proclivity for throwing interceptions. I expect that Witten will be running deeper routes this season.

I'm not trying to say that Smith is a bum, but you're playing revisionist history with regards to Smith and Witten's draft status.

[Tio]

It is worth pointing out that Witten was rated as a high-to-mid second round talent. It was interesting to some observers why Philly chose LJ Smith over Witten. I think the fact that he was a relatively local product (Rutgers) may have played a little bit of a role there.

Witten was a second round talent that had Dallas jumping for joy when he slipped to the third round (mostly because the Texans selected Michigan's Joppru). Smith was the 3rd TE taken (Clark, Joppru) and Witten was the fourth. They were selected 7 picks apart (61 overall, 68 overall).

Don't get it into your head that Smith was consistently rated higher than Witten:

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/archives/2003/03rankings.html
http://football.about.com/cs/terankings/
http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/6295740
http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Insider/2003/Printout1ROP.htm
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfldraft/story?page=te_rankings
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2003/draft/breakdowns/by_position/te.html

I believe Witten is ranked well above Smith in all those pre-draft rankings. His fall to the third round is one of the greatest coups in Dallas's recent draft history, allowing Dallas to grab Al Johnson in the second round yet still nab their desired TE in the third. No one thought Witten would still be around that late.

As for the yards per catch, I would argue that Philadelphia works Smith deeper down the field than Dallas did with Witten, primarily because Bill Parcells doesn't like to throw down the middle with QB's that have a proclivity for throwing interceptions. I expect that Witten will be running deeper routes this season.

I'm not trying to say that Smith is a bum, but you're playing revisionist history with regards to Smith and Witten's draft status.Great points. Welcome to the board.

[kmd24]

Lewis (23) + Smith (27) had 50 total catches.
Campbell (20) + Witten (35) had 55 total catches.

Lewis (293) + Smith (321) had 614 total yards.
Campbell (195) + Witten (347) had 542 total yards.

Lewis (1) + Smith (1) had 2 total TDs.
Cambell (1) + Smith (1) had 2 total TDs.

Lewis (17) + Smith (15) had 32 total FDs.
Campbell (8) + Witten (18) had 26 total FDs.


I get it; since Smith's stats aren't really better than Witten's, you have to lump Campbell in to drag Witten down, despite the fact that Campbell's primary role was in the running game.

My prediction: Witten will statistically destroy Smith in 2004.

[AJM1613]

I found this in 30 seconds. Want more?

Wait, what exactly did I say in the "Roy Hits Calico Avatar" thread? It really wasn't a hit? Read a lot of Cowboy fans responses, most of them agree with me.

I brought up Westbrook because someone else brought up Pinkston, thanks for proving my point.

The worst nightmare thing was a joke...no sense of humor? Just "joshing" you...

Not to self: RW31 no sense of humor...

[Tio]

Wait, what exactly did I say in the "Roy Hits Calico Avatar" thread? It really wasn't a hit? Read a lot of Cowboy fans responses, most of them agree with me.

I brought up Westbrook because someone else brought up Pinkston, thanks for proving my point.

The worst nightmare thing was a joke...no sense of humor? Just "joshing" you...

Not to self: RW31 no sense of humor...
http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6906

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6792

[Chuck 54]

I get it; since Smith's stats aren't really better than Witten's, you have to lump Campbell in to drag Witten down, despite the fact that Campbell's primary role was in the running game.

My prediction: Witten will statistically destroy Smith in 2004.
My prediction...neither guy will get a whiff of Shockey's jock strap when he's in Hawaii and they aren't.

[Tio]

My prediction...neither guy will get a whiff of Shockey's jock strap when he's in Hawaii and they aren't.DO you have a crush on Shockey? We stopped discussing him long ago...

[kmd24]

My prediction...neither guy will get a whiff of Shockey's jock strap when he's in Hawaii and they aren't.

Shockey may make it to Hawaii without seeing much of the field. He seems to have an issue with staying healthy lately.

Of course, that didn't keep Larry Allen from making it to Honolulu in 2003...