Is Jeff Garcia over the line of scrimmage?

[TEK2000]

My dad and I saw this during the game and thought it might have needed to be challenged by the Cowboys. The announcers didn't even mention anything about it during the game either.

On the Eagles' very first possession, its 3rd & 10 from the Eagles 10 yard line.

IF this had been called by the refs, the Eagles' first scoring drive (of 90 yards) would have ended on a 3 and out. Throwing a forward pass in front of the line of scrimmage is a loss of down and 5 yard penalty.
So, instead of 1st & 10 following this play, it would have been 4th & 15 from their own 5 yard line. It would have given our offense the ball in good field position as well.

During the game, it looked like he was definitely over the line of scrimmage, but after looking at these images, it looks a little closer than I originally thought.

First pic is the shot of the line of scrimmage... notice the ball is on the 10 yard line and the down marker is directly between the 11 and 10.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tek2000/garcialos1.jpg

This pic is the moment the ball left Garcia's fingers.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tek2000/garcialos2.jpg

[AdamJT13]

The passer's entire body must be over the line of scrimmage. So it shouldn't have been a penalty.

[CrazyCowboy]

Guess it is a little to late now, however it does look close

[Doomsday101]

My dad and I saw this during the game and thought it might have needed to be challenged by the Cowboys. The announcers didn't even mention anything about it during the game either.

On the Eagles' very first possession, its 3rd & 10 from the Eagles 10 yard line.

IF this had been called by the refs, the Eagles' first scoring drive (of 90 yards) would have ended on a 3 and out. Throwing a forward pass in front of the line of scrimmage is a loss of down and 5 yard penalty.
So, instead of 1st & 10 following this play, it would have been 4th & 15 from their own 5 yard line. It would have given our offense the ball in good field position as well.

During the game, it looked like he was definitely over the line of scrimmage, but after looking at these images, it looks a little closer than I originally thought.

First pic is the shot of the line of scrimmage... notice the ball is on the 10 yard line and the down marker is directly between the 11 and 10.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tek2000/garcialos1.jpg

This pic is the moment the ball left Garcia's fingers.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tek2000/garcialos2.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tek2000/garcialos1.jpg

I felt he did go over the line and really expected the play to be call back. Looking at the replay I'm not sure if it would have been over turned though had we thrown out the red flag.

[silver]

i kept waiting for bp to challenge that play.

[TEK2000]

The passer's entire body must be over the line of scrimmage. So it shouldn't have been a penalty.

I guess that solves it.

Seems a little odd. Its considered a forward pass if the ball is released behind the reciever (even if the passer is in front of the reciever). But the whole body of the passer has to be over the line to be considered an illegal forward pass.

[alancdc]

The passer's entire body must be over the line of scrimmage. So it shouldn't have been a penalty.

I don't think that is right. I was under the impression that it is where the ball is, when released, and not the entire body?

[Hostile]

If you look at the Line Judge on the far sideline you actually can see that the red ball marker is beyond the 10 yard line a bit. In fact, it is directly behind the LJ's right leg. Also in the 2nd pic you can see that the first down strip is beyond the 20 yard line equi-distant to the ball marker.

His whole body did not cross the line of scrimmage anyway. It was close. Not close enough to harp about.

[AdamJT13]

I don't think that is right. I was under the impression that it is where the ball is, when released, and not the entire body?

Rule 8-1-1 (S.N. 3)

The penalty for a forward pass beyond the line is to be enforced from the spot where the ball is released when the passer’s entire body and the ball are beyond the line of scrimmage. This includes either when the passer is airborne or touching the ground.

[alancdc]

Rule 8-1-1 (S.N. 3)

The penalty for a forward pass beyond the line is to be enforced from the spot where the ball is released when the passer’s entire body and the ball are beyond the line of scrimmage. This includes either when the passer is airborne or touching the ground.

Good stuff man. I stand corrected.

[TEK2000]

Rule 8-1-1 (S.N. 3)

The penalty for a forward pass beyond the line is to be enforced from the spot where the ball is released when the passer’s entire body and the ball are beyond the line of scrimmage. This includes either when the passer is airborne or touching the ground.

Where do you get all of your wonderful info? :)

[Hostile]

Where do you get all of your wonderful info? :)He writes it. Lawyer for the NFL.

:wink2:

[AdamJT13]

If you look at the Line Judge on the far sideline you actually can see that the red ball marker is beyond the 10 yard line a bit. In fact, it is directly behind the LJ's right leg. Also in the 2nd pic you can see that the first down strip is beyond the 20 yard line equi-distant to the ball marker.

It was third-and-11, though. The ball is right on the 10-yard line, and the series started with the ball just outside the 10 (which technically makes it on the 11). So the red marker behind the line judge's right leg is where the first down was. The down marker is right behind him.

[TEK2000]

He writes it. Lawyer for the NFL.

:wink2:

He's like the Wizard of Oz... standing behind a screename instead of a curtain. :laugh2:

[iceberg]

The passer's entire body must be over the line of scrimmage. So it shouldn't have been a penalty.

and it would have made *no difference* in the way we played.

[AdamJT13]

Where do you get all of your wonderful info?

I got a copy of the actual NFL rule book for 2006 (not the "rules digest"). Now I'm trying to get my hands on a copy of the Case Book.

[Hostile]

It was third-and-11, though. The ball is right on the 10-yard line, and the series started with the ball just outside the 10 (which technically makes it on the 11). So the red marker behind the line judge's right leg is where the first down was. The down marker is right behind him.Good point. I hadn't considered that. Was too busy looking at the flags to think about the down and distance.

[DragonCowboy]

and it would have made *no difference* in the way we played.

Well, I'm not sure about that.

That drive took a lot out of our defense. If we forced them into a three and out, it might have energized our defense.

Who knows.

[TEK2000]

and it would have made *no difference* in the way we played.

That early in the game... with them following that up with a long drive to score... it CERTAINLY would have made a difference. Would we have definitely won? No telling... but it certainly would have let our defense get off the field quickly and put our offense in good field position.

It doesn't matter because it wasn't a penalty, but if it were and it wasn't called... it WOULD have made some difference.

[AdamJT13]

and it would have made *no difference* in the way we played.

You mean, if he HAD been over the line of scrimmage and a penalty was called?

I think it might have made a big difference. The Eagles ran 10 more plays and scored a touchdown on that drive. If they had been punting and it had been 0-0, I think we would have kicked a field goal on fourth-and-goal on our next possession, putting us up 3-0, instead of down 7-0. That's a 10-point swing. And, considering that Austin fumbled the kickoff after their touchdown, our defense would have been on the field for 13 plays and 6:59 less in the first quarter, making them less worn down at the end.

[31smackdown]

I wish we could download a game copy from this angle.. or full field angle.. it really helps you see what is going on in coverage and spacing

[DragonCowboy]

You mean, if he HAD been over the line of scrimmage and a penalty was called?

I think it might have made a big difference. The Eagles ran 10 more plays and scored a touchdown on that drive. If they had been punting and it had been 0-0, I think we would have kicked a field goal on fourth-and-goal on our next possession, putting us up 3-0, instead of down 7-0. That's a 10-point swing. And, considering that Austin fumbled the kickoff after their touchdown, our defense would have been on the field for 13 plays and 6:59 less in the first quarter, making them less worn down at the end.


Wait a sec...

If they had to punt, it'd be 0-0 with Dallas having the ball, correct.

We didn't have that 4th and goal position until AFTER Austin fumbled the kickoff return right? Because after Austin fumbled it, Henry intercepted Garcia, and returned it to around the 35-yard line of the Eagles, allowing us to get to the 1.

If they had punted it to the 50 yard line or so, I'm not so sure we'd be able to drive the field.

Still, taking away 7 pts from them, and a quick 3-and-out would have totally fired up our defense.

Instead it deflated them.

Either way, it makes a difference.

[Rampage]

who cares. the game is over

[aikemirv]

That was one of the biggest plays in the game if you ask me - but I am one of those that think single plays do swing games and momentum.

[GimmeTheBall!]

My dad and I saw this during the game and thought it might have needed to be challenged by the Cowboys. The announcers didn't even mention anything about it during the game either.

On the Eagles' very first possession, its 3rd & 10 from the Eagles 10 yard line.

IF this had been called by the refs, the Eagles' first scoring drive (of 90 yards) would have ended on a 3 and out. Throwing a forward pass in front of the line of scrimmage is a loss of down and 5 yard penalty.
So, instead of 1st & 10 following this play, it would have been 4th & 15 from their own 5 yard line. It would have given our offense the ball in good field position as well.

During the game, it looked like he was definitely over the line of scrimmage, but after looking at these images, it looks a little closer than I originally thought.

First pic is the shot of the line of scrimmage... notice the ball is on the 10 yard line and the down marker is directly between the 11 and 10.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tek2000/garcialos1.jpg

This pic is the moment the ball left Garcia's fingers.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tek2000/garcialos2.jpg

We would have had a chance.
And had T.O. not dropped that ball we'd be within striking distance.
And had Henry not been burned . . .
Had Low-Mileage not fumbled
Had one of our guys sacked Garcia (Oh, we did once?!!)
Had our blitz package worked (even once) . . .

Well, OK, let's dwell on Garcia's alleged passing the line of scrimmage. Wake me up when the ref's make a decision on dat.

[DragonCowboy]

That was one of the biggest plays in the game if you ask me - but I am one of those that think single plays do swing games and momentum.

And they do.

For example:
Ask Bledsoe about his flea-flicker to T. Glenn in the Chiefs game.

[AdamJT13]

Wait a sec...

If they had to punt, it'd be 0-0 with Dallas having the ball, correct.

We didn't have that 4th and goal position until AFTER Austin fumbled the kickoff return right? Because after Austin fumbled it, Henry intercepted Garcia, and returned it to around the 35-yard line of the Eagles, allowing us to get to the 1.

If they had punted it to the 50 yard line or so, I'm not so sure we'd be able to drive the field.

We started at their 32 and drove 31 yards before the three plays at the 1. If they had punted, we probably would have started around the 45 (an average net punt). So we still probably would have driven into field goal range.

[TEK2000]

We would have had a chance.
And had T.O. not dropped that ball we'd be within striking distance.
And had Henry not been burned . . .
Had Low-Mileage not fumbled
Had one of our guys sacked Garcia (Oh, we did once?!!)
Had our blitz package worked (even once) . . .

Well, OK, let's dwell on Garcia's alleged passing the line of scrimmage. Wake me up when the ref's make a decision on dat.

:jerk:

DID I SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE REFS SCREWED US? All I did was post the images FOR DISCUSSION!

God forbid we post things that we noticed during the game.

[panchucko]

Did you send it to the NFL for review?

[silver]

i would've still challenged to slow them down.

[DragonCowboy]

i would've still challenged to slow them down.

Well, i wouldn't have. It was their first possession. In 2 plays, they lost a yard. One pass for a first down really isn't any momentum that must be stopped. If I were Parcells, I'd be thinking that my defense could stop them, so I don't blame him for not pulling out the red flag.

We started at their 32 and drove 31 yards before the three plays at the 1. If they had punted, we probably would have started around the 45 (an average net punt). So we still probably would have driven into field goal range.

Yeah. Man if only if only we stopped them there. We might've been rejoicing, with high hopes for the playoffs. Now everything is just...ugh..

[DallasCowpoke]

Where do you get all of your wonderful info?

Write the National Football League office in New York, in care of the public relations department. You can purchase the National Football League Official Rule Book directly from them.

I get one for 2 of my old HS coaches every 5 years or so as xmas gifts.

[iceberg]

You mean, if he HAD been over the line of scrimmage and a penalty was called?

I think it might have made a big difference. The Eagles ran 10 more plays and scored a touchdown on that drive. If they had been punting and it had been 0-0, I think we would have kicked a field goal on fourth-and-goal on our next possession, putting us up 3-0, instead of down 7-0. That's a 10-point swing. And, considering that Austin fumbled the kickoff after their touchdown, our defense would have been on the field for 13 plays and 6:59 less in the first quarter, making them less worn down at the end.

either way - i don't think it would have made a difference.

we just couldn't stop ourselves if we had to, much less a team that wanted to win.

[Star4Ever]

I don't think that is right. I was under the impression that it is where the ball is, when released, and not the entire body?

You're right. The QB's whole body does NOT have to be over the line of scrimmage for it to be a penalty. Who ever posted that needs to do his/her homework first.

[Star4Ever]

Let me put it this way. I've seen a penalty thrown on many occasions when the QB's whole body was not over the LOS. Maybe the officials called it incorrectly, but I've seen it numerous times.

[iceberg]

Let me put it this way. I've seen a penalty thrown on many occasions when the QB's whole body was not over the LOS. Maybe the officials called it incorrectly, but I've seen it numerous times.

way to tell adamjt he's wrong first before you try and "recover". : )

[AdamJT13]

Let me put it this way. I've seen a penalty thrown on many occasions when the QB's whole body was not over the LOS. Maybe the officials called it incorrectly, but I've seen it numerous times.

Probably before the rule was changed.