Serious question regarding the defense.

[Shotgun Dave]

OK, so just prior to the New Orleans game Dallas was cruising right along and looking like a lock for the NFC East title.

In the last 4 games Dallas has allowed as many points as they had in their previous 8 games. Opponents in that span have included such future Hall of Fame QB's as John Kitna and Michael Vick (eyes rolling).

My question is...what SPECIFICALLY changed that turned our defense into a steaming pile of horse crap? Regardless of those who want to pin this on Romo (who, despite his turnovers, completed about 75% of his passes for over 300 yards and two TD's), our offense scored 24 points. That ought to be good enough to win if your defense doesn't suck.

But our defense SUCKS. WHY? WHAT HAPPENED?

[Cajuncowboy]

WHY? WHAT HAPPENED?

Zimmer!

[dargonking999]

I guess everyone Missed the Lions game against The Bears.

3 TD's 1 INt i think it was

the lions have been coming on late, and well they were due

[Bleu Star]

This happened.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/326/326704/folders/250582/2069306Zimmer,Mike01.jpg

[gbrittain]

I guess everyone Missed the Lions game against The Bears.

3 TD's 1 INt i think it was

the lions have been coming on late, and well they were due

Oh stop it. Dallas was due for a critical win too don't you think? Dallas has won one out of its last four.

Do not make excuses for this team. They do not need to be propped up they just need to play better.

[Kangaroo]

This is my opinion a the loss of Ellis was pretty big factor in part of the issue.

Second you noticed the players have been griping at the coaches not being more aggressive about the play calling hon defense. The coaches do not trust them is what we get from Bill. I think the defense has just laid down and quit on Zimmer and his scheme. call it a lack of faith in his system scheme what ever you want.

Remember the Texans offense last year under Palmer (he was cut after about 3 games). The defensive players have talked and played like they no longer have faith in the coaching staff much like the Texans players last year.

[Dave_in-NC]

Oh stop it. Dallas was due for a critical win too don't you think? Dallas has won one out of its last four.

Do not make excuses for this team. They do not need to be propped up they just need to play better.

It doesn't get any more plain than that. From top to bottom.

[dargonking999]

Oh stop it. Dallas was due for a critical win too don't you think? Dallas has won one out of its last four.

Do not make excuses for this team. They do not need to be propped up they just need to play better.

Im not making excuses, the lions have been playing better, and they came in there nad played hard, and we made to many mistakes, and it cost us down the strech. We had 4 TO. You cant win like that.

[hank2k]

Great question. How bout some real hard analysis instead of "Zimmer sucks " ,etc. I didnt tape the game but does Marcus Spears still play on this team?

[hank2k]

This is my opinion a the loss of Ellis was pretty big factor in part of the issue.

Second you noticed the players have been griping at the coaches not being more aggressive about the play calling hon defense. The coaches do not trust them is what we get from Bill. I think the defense has just laid down and quit on Zimmer and his scheme. call it a lack of faith in his system scheme what ever you want.

Remember the Texans offense last year under Palmer (he was cut after about 3 games). The defensive players have talked and played like they no longer have faith in the coaching staff much like the Texans players last year.
This isnt Zimmers scheme its Parcells'. Thats part of the problem I think.

[Shotgun Dave]

This is my opinion a the loss of Ellis was pretty big factor in part of the issue.

Second you noticed the players have been griping at the coaches not being more aggressive about the play calling hon defense. The coaches do not trust them is what we get from Bill. I think the defense has just laid down and quit on Zimmer and his scheme. call it a lack of faith in his system scheme what ever you want.

Remember the Texans offense last year under Palmer (he was cut after about 3 games). The defensive players have talked and played like they no longer have faith in the coaching staff much like the Texans players last year.

Thank you, Kangaroo. I realize there are a lot of Zimmer haters (like me) but I want to know what has CHANGED that has caused this colossal collapse. When did we lose Ellis again?

Ware had THREE sacks today and STILL we gave up nearly SIX touchdowns today!

[dargonking999]

Great question. How bout some real hard analysis instead of "Zimmer sucks " ,etc. I didnt tape the game but does Marcus Spears still play on this team?


nah he was cut for ghost

[Alexander]

My question is...what SPECIFICALLY changed that turned our defense into a steaming pile of horse crap?

Payton exposed our main weakness.

Namely the fact Bradie James and Roy Williams cannot hold the middle in coverage. James in particular is awful and Williams isn't fast enough to close the hole.

Today was even more distressing that Terence Newman got beaten like a rented mule.

[theogt]

A few things hurt this defense during the second half of the season:

1. Losing Greg Ellis.
2. Bad play by Bradie James.
3. Bad play by Aaron Glenn.
4. Bad play by Anthony Henry.

Strangely, our biggest ailment during the first half of the season (safeties) wasn't really a big problem during the second half of the season.

[Haley94]

In the NO game, our defense got psychologically raped. They don't trust the scheme or the coaches, but most of all, they don't trust themselves. They are in a corner, curled up in the fetal position, mumbling to themselves. It's a sad sight when you don't trust yourself anymore.

[Alexander]

In the NO game our defense got psychologically raped. They don't trust the scheme or the coaches, but most of all, they don't trust themselves. They are in a corner, curled up in the fetal position, mumbling to themselves. It's a sad sight when you don't trust yourself anymore.

I agree.

They have done anything and everything.

We have tried the "player's only" meeting.

We have tried the "quiet player calls out everyone for talking too much" angle.

They really don't know either, and that is what is so very frightening.

From what I see, we really did think we are that great based off of preseason and it went through its progressions up and down through the year. It met its height after Indianapolis. Since then it has plummetted.

Very much like the bully that doubts themselves after getting punched in the mouth, we are stunned and very dumb right now.

[Shotgun Dave]

It boggles my mind that Dallas has spent SO MANY draft picks on defense and THIS is what we've got. I just don't know what to make of it. I really don't. Either our draft department truly sucks or our defensive strategy( and coordinator) really are that bad.

I tell you what...mark my words on this...as soon as our season is over (next Saturday night?) there are going to be some major changes around here. NO WAY does Dallas perform like this without Jerry exploding.

NO WAY.

[Alexander]

It boggles my mind that Dallas has spent SO MANY draft picks on defense and THIS is what we've got. I just don't know what to make of it. I really don't. Either our draft department truly sucks or our defensive strategy( and coordinator) really are that bad.

I tell you what...mark my words on this...as soon as our season is over (next Saturday night?) there are going to be some major changes around here. NO WAY does Dallas perform like this without Jerry exploding.

NO WAY.

If last week was not enough, this game solidified it.

Zimmer's contract is not renewed and somehow people will believe justice has been served.

[Dave_in-NC]

I agree.

They have done anything and everything.

We have tried the "player's only" meeting.

We have tried the "quiet player calls out everyone for talking too much" angle.

They really don't know either, and that is what is so very frightening.

From what I see, we really did think we are that great based off of preseason and it went through its progressions up and down through the year. It met its height after Indianapolis. Since then it has plummetted.

Very much like the bully that doubts themselves after getting punched in the mouth, we are stunned and very dumb right now.

I think that sums it up. No one knows where to turn.

[Alexander]

I think that sums it up. No one knows where to turn.

And what does that tell you?

We have no leadership.

Not from the defensive coordinator.

And not from the players either.

[LeonDixson]

This is my opinion a the loss of Ellis was pretty big factor in part of the issue.

Second you noticed the players have been griping at the coaches not being more aggressive about the play calling hon defense. The coaches do not trust them is what we get from Bill. I think the defense has just laid down and quit on Zimmer and his scheme. call it a lack of faith in his system scheme what ever you want.

Remember the Texans offense last year under Palmer (he was cut after about 3 games). The defensive players have talked and played like they no longer have faith in the coaching staff much like the Texans players last year.

I agree with this except that Parcells has at least an equal share of the blame. He dictates the overall scheme to Zimmer. If we want a different scheme on defense, or offense for that matter, the coaching staff needs to go. I'm all for that after today.

[Haley94]

I agree.

They have done anything and everything.

We have tried the "player's only" meeting.

We have tried the "quiet player calls out everyone for talking too much" angle.

They really don't know either, and that is what is so very frightening.

From what I see, we really did think we are that great based off of preseason and it went through its progressions up and down through the year. It met its height after Indianapolis. Since then it has plummetted.

Very much like the bully that doubts themselves after getting punched in the mouth, we are stunned and very dumb right now.

Yup. Good analogy. Just like the bully who got punched in the mouth.

[MichaelWinicki]

I agree.

They have done anything and everything.

We have tried the "player's only" meeting.

We have tried the "quiet player calls out everyone for talking too much" angle.

They really don't know either, and that is what is so very frightening.

From what I see, we really did think we are that great based off of preseason and it went through its progressions up and down through the year. It met its height after Indianapolis. Since then it has plummetted.

Very much like the bully that doubts themselves after getting punched in the mouth, we are stunned and very dumb right now.


And something that won't be fixed this season.

The interesting thing to guess might be the over/under on how many present coaches won't be part of this team next season.

[hank2k]

I just checked the game stats for Spears (who started btw). He pulled a "Blutarski" in terms of tackles, sacks, assists.

"Zero point zero"

[MichaelWinicki]

And what does that tell you?

We have no leadership.

Not from the defensive coordinator.

And not from the players either.


And obviously not from the head coach either.


I've been waiting for Parcells to call this team out and he's basically rubbed its belly and said, "We'll get them next week".


Well, we're fast running out of weeks.

[Alexander]

I just checked the game stats for Spears (who started btw). He pulled a "Flounder" in terms of tackles, sacks, assists.

"Zero point zero"

That is known as a "Blutarsky".

If we were fat, dumb and stupid, we would be acting out a Kent Dorfman.

[MichaelWinicki]

I agree with this except that Parcells has at least an equal share of the blame. He dictates the overall scheme to Zimmer. If we want a different scheme on defense, or offense for that matter, the coaching staff needs to go. I'm all for that after today.

I am too Leon.


I'm waving the white-flag.


I've seen enough.


Let's end the Parcells era after we suffer next weeks beat-down at the hands of Seattle.

[Shotgun Dave]

I just checked the game stats for Spears (who started btw). He pulled a "Flounder" in terms of tackles, sacks, assists.

"Zero point zero"

Funny. I just did the exact same thing, and was about to ask if he even played.

That's just shameful. Bill has gotta be pissed. The guy's a first round pick!

[Rush 2112]

We use to have this guy named Greg Ellis starting at SOLB.

[dfense]

This is my opinion a the loss of Ellis was pretty big factor in part of the issue.

Second you noticed the players have been griping at the coaches not being more aggressive about the play calling hon defense. The coaches do not trust them is what we get from Bill. I think the defense has just laid down and quit on Zimmer and his scheme. call it a lack of faith in his system scheme what ever you want.

Remember the Texans offense last year under Palmer (he was cut after about 3 games). The defensive players have talked and played like they no longer have faith in the coaching staff much like the Texans players last year. It wasn't even as much about the pressure today. Guys were just running free. Mike Williams lined up over Aaron Glenn and Roy moves up to take the slot guy. I just about jumped out of my chair when I saw that. You're not going to help Glenn on that? Several big plays were five step drops and the ball was gone. That's not the pass rush.

[cowboy4life]

Payton exposed our main weakness.

Namely the fact Bradie James and Roy Williams cannot hold the middle in coverage. James in particular is awful and Williams isn't fast enough to close the hole.

Today was even more distressing that Terence Newman got beaten like a rented mule.

James is horrible in coverage and frankly with the exception of Ware and Carpenter, the linebackers on this team do not play the pass well at all. This defense will never be worth a crap unless we get some linebackers that can rush the passer and cover. We need to give up trying to play this cover 2 defense on passing downs and just play man to man. I would rather us get beat than be exposed like we have been in this scheme.

If Newman is supposed to be this great cover corner, let him cover. Quit trying to play linebackers on wide receivers in coverage. You know, I thought that Greg Ellis was going to be the achilles heel on pass defense as a LB. He played it pretty damn good.

[MichaelWinicki]

James is horrible in coverage and frankly with the exception of Ware and Carpenter, the linebackers on this team do not play the pass well at all. This defense will never be worth a crap unless we get some linebackers that can rush the passer and cover. We need to give up trying to play this cover 2 defense on passing downs and just play man to man. I would rather us get beat than be exposed like we have been in this scheme.

If Newman is supposed to be this great cover corner, let him cover. Quit trying to play linebackers on wide receivers in coverage. You know, I thought that Greg Ellis was going to be the achilles heel on pass defense as a LB. He played it pretty damn good.

Give me 3 smaller linebackers that are fast. These guys just sorta lumber about.

[Bleu Star]

Give me 3 smaller linebackers that are fast. These guys just sorta lumber about.

Speed still kills.

[88 enough said]

Out coached from the Head coach on down, for the last four weeks and for most of the year for what thats worth. Its time for a change. 1980's is gone. I like BP and think he is a good man, BUT

[Teague31]

Speed still kills.


:hammer:


The game truly has passed BP by. Back in the 80's you could win on size and strength but today's game is all about speed.

[LeonDixson]

I am too Leon.


I'm waving the white-flag.


I've seen enough.


Let's end the Parcells era after we suffer next weeks beat-down at the hands of Seattle.

Yeah, I'm ready for new coaches up and down the line, even if we win in Seattle. I truly believe they've lost this team. I think the defense is in a passive agressive rebellion.

[ABQCOWBOY]

To me, this was kinda in the cards all along. Division record has always been a pretty good indicator of how good a team is. If you can't beat the teams in your own division, then you probably have a problem. They typically know you better then anybody and they know how to beat you. Teams out side of your division typically don't know you as well and so, you can hide weakness for a time. However, eventually, teams in the NFL will find your weakness and exploite it. To me, the fact that we could not win consistently against our own division really spoke volumes. Without McNappie and with the condition of the Eagles WRs and power running game, we really should have been able beat them. The way the Giants have played this year, they should have been vulnerable. Inner team issues and injuries to there OL and DL, we should have been able to handle them. We didn't. Washington, they were bad from the get go. We should have been able to win and we didn't.

To me, it was only a matter of time. Eventually, other teams would figure out our weakness and we would pay for it. The loss of Ellis was huge because he was and always has been the foundation of our defense. Always funny to me how many wanted to get ride of him early in the year but he's the guy who keeps all the other guys in there when it gets tough. When he went down, it just made our deficiancies that much more evident. I'm not really too disapointed with this season. We are better then we were last year. We will make the playoffs and do what we can do. In the end, we have made progress. We have found young OLs that can help. We have found a QB that is our future. We know that Ware is what we thought he would be. We have good young players. We just need more. We need to continue to mature and we need to continue to build our team. That's all it is to me.

I hope we win a playoff game but if we don't, I'm ready for next season and I expect us to get better and better. I believe we will be there sooner rather then later. of course, that's just my opinion.

[Rush 2112]

McGinnest, Vrabel, Johnson, Bruschi.........

Speed kills.

[StanleySpadowski]

The defense fell apart thanks to Bill Parcells but it's not why you're thinking. Parcells has finished 2-3 after Thanksgiving every year he's been in Dallas and I think the reason is Parcells' old school be a man and play through it attitude.

Players get banged up, knicked, bruised ... over the course of a season. Suppose for a moment that Henry's knee is as bad as it looks at times watching him run. Would giving him a week off been a bad thing? In Parcells' mind it must have been.

I think that certain players hide injuries to keep the wrath of Parcells from finding them, even though it's not their fault. Others play through them even if Parcells knows. We've heard second hand accounts of players taking one for the team, playing when they shouldn't have.

Combine that with a lack of thought evolution on the defensive side of the ball and it's a recipe for disaster. The players who could execute earlier in the year are no longer physically able and the schemes don't take that into account.

[ABQCOWBOY]

The defense fell apart thanks to Bill Parcells but it's not why you're thinking. Parcells has finished 2-3 after Thanksgiving every year he's been in Dallas and I think the reason is Parcells' old school be a man and play through it attitude.

Players get banged up, knicked, bruised ... over the course of a season. Suppose for a moment that Henry's knee is as bad as it looks at times watching him run. Would giving him a week off been a bad thing? In Parcells' mind it must have been.

I think that certain players hide injuries to keep the wrath of Parcells from finding them, even though it's not their fault. Others play through them even if Parcells knows. We've heard second hand accounts of players taking one for the team, playing when they shouldn't have.

Combine that with a lack of thought evolution on the defensive side of the ball and it's a recipe for disaster. The players who could execute earlier in the year are no longer physically able and the schemes don't take that into account.

I think there might be something to what you say but in truth, this time of year, everybody is banged. Nobody is completely healthy. Essentially, every team we play is in the same boat. The one thing I think is applicable is the age of our team. Might be as simple as young players not as strong as they will be in a few years. It's a difficult thing to play a 16 game season. Players, especially younger players, typically hit the wall at some point. Could be this is what is happening. Only the team knows this for sure.

BTW, Happy New Year Stan.

[StanleySpadowski]

I think there might be something to what you say but in truth, this time of year, everybody is banged. Nobody is completely healthy. Essentially, every team we play is in the same boat. The one thing I think is applicable is the age of our team. Might be as simple as young players not as strong as they will be in a few years. It's a difficult thing to play a 16 game season. Players, especially younger players, typically hit the wall at some point. Could be this is what is happening. Only the team knows this for sure.

BTW, Happy New Year Stan.



I agree that all teams are banged up but I do think that Parcells doesn't look at injuries like most other coaches. I'd be willing to bet that Henry's been practicing every day.

Read the listings some time. Tons of players sit until friday every week. Some multiple weeks in a row. A player sits out practice in Dallas and Parcells' doghouse needs to add another wing.

Happy New Year to you also.

[Haley94]

I agree that all teams are banged up but I do think that Parcells doesn't look at injuries like most other coaches. I'd be willing to bet that Henry's been practicing every day.

Read the listings some time. Tons of players sit until friday every week. Some multiple weeks in a row. A player sits out practice in Dallas and Parcells' doghouse needs to add another wing.

Happy New Year to you also.

Good point.

[Juke99]

This isnt Zimmers scheme its Parcells'. Thats part of the problem I think.

BINGO!

[ABQCOWBOY]

I agree that all teams are banged up but I do think that Parcells doesn't look at injuries like most other coaches. I'd be willing to bet that Henry's been practicing every day.

Read the listings some time. Tons of players sit until friday every week. Some multiple weeks in a row. A player sits out practice in Dallas and Parcells' doghouse needs to add another wing.

Happy New Year to you also.


Well, I can't deny that. BP does seem to go hard all the time. No matter, it is what it is. Too late to change anything now. Just hope we can bring it against Seattle.

[TexasAce]

I'll tell you what happened:

Our defensive coaches are bafoons, and our players are not as good as we thought.

I like Terrence Newman ALOT, and I'm glad he is on our team, but I have said to some fans that he might just be a little overrated.

Think about it, today was a perfect example, how often do we actually line up Newman on the other teams best receiver ? Hardly never.

You would think this would be common sense, being as it is something most teams practice, your best corner goes on their best receiver...except in Dallas.

We don't really see Newman consistently going up against the best, game in and game out, not to mention one of the reasons is because we play so much zone as well.

The point is, we dno't see him get beat much because he's rarely in a position that truly challenges him.

Newman has gotten beat for TD's against a scrub like Ashlie Lelie in Atlanta, and today got embarassed by a super scrub in Mike Williams.

Now this is not a bash Newman, I'm simply saying that he is one of many on our defense that is overrated.

Roy Williams can't cover anyone. and it appears he doesn't amke anymore plays hitting and tackling anymore either, at least not this year anyway.

Someone needs to check if Roy is on drugs, SERIOUSLY, because he has done some tremendously idiotic things this year.

He's hitting our own men more than he's hitting the oppositions, and today he got away with a late hit which was exactly like the play that he hurt Anthony Henry with in Atlanta.

Both times the ball had hit the ground a good 2 to 3 seconds before he got over to the receiver, yet for some dumbarse reason he throws his shoulder into the guy.

When he did it in Atlanta he missed their receiver and hit Henry instead.

Ware is about the only guy that doesn't deserve much criticism, and maybe even Ferguson, everyone else however has had their poor moments, and they deserve alot of the blame as well.

Good coaching can fix alot of this, so I can't wait till we bring in someone competent next year.

Hopefully, he gets Roy to lose 15 pounds.

[big dog cowboy]

Our defensive coaches are bafoons
You could have just stopped right there. Dang it.

[GimmeTheBall!]

Great question. How bout some real hard analysis instead of "Zimmer sucks " ,etc. I didnt tape the game but does Marcus Spears still play on this team?
Spears really has become invisible. Canty aint far behind.

[burmafrd]

Newman needs to be LEFT on their top guy and just follow him all over. he has shut down Steve Smith and other top WRs before. BUT we refuse most of the time to do that. Just plain dumb. If you take, one on one, the other teams best WR out of the game you have a BIG advantage. Instead we play around and switch coverages and that is a recipe for disaster. PUt your #1 on his #1; your #2 on his #2 and fight it out. If you can get pressure you will be fine; if you cannot then it does not matter. Tight one on one pressure today would have worked since we got to Kitna all day.