View Full Version : Do we need to clean out old scouting dept?
SURPRISE START FOR COLEMAN
By MARK CANNIZZARO
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September 10, 2004 -- This question was posed to Erik Coleman yesterday, three days before he will play — and start — the first NFL game of his career: "If I told you at the beginning of training camp that you would be a starter in the regular-season opener, what would your reaction have been?"
Coleman: "I would have said, 'How? What did I do to be able to get this far?' "
What did Coleman, a fifth-round draft pick, do to become a starter in his first NFL game?
First, he got lucky when projected starter Reggie Tongue injured his left calf muscle and missed some three weeks of practice, thrusting Coleman into the starting spot in practices and in preseason games.
From there, all Coleman has done is perform, play smartly, be around the ball and gain the confidence of the coaching staff.
Even when Tongue, an eight-year veteran who was signed to a free agent contract in the offseason, became healthy, Coleman remained with the first team.
Yesterday, officially acknowledging what most observers had long ago figured out, Herman Edwards named Coleman the starter for Sunday's regular-season opener against the Bengals at Giants Stadium.
"I'm very fortunate, I thank the coaches for giving me the opportunity and I plan on making them very happy with their decision to play me," Coleman said.
"You never know," Edwards said. "It's the Wally Pipp story. Erik has done a great job for us. He's a young player, drafted in the fifth round. We liked him and felt like he had a great upside. He's very intelligent, he can communicate the calls and he's gained confidence by playing.
"He doesn't know anything but starting," Edwards joked, referring to how quickly Coleman was inserted into the Jets' starting lineup. "He probably just figures, 'I'm supposed to start.' "
The truth is Coleman is a very humble, nose-to-the-grindstone type. He was anything but celebrating his starting job.
Coleman said starting "means a lot" to him, but was quick to add, "Then again, I don't really have too much time to be happy about it. I have to go out there and perform and do well, keep my head down and make plays. Maybe after the season I'll look back and be happy about what I did."
Coleman called Tongue's training camp injury "good for me, but it was good for the team, too."
"It gave me reps with the first team," Coleman said. "It just makes us deeper. If someone goes down we've got three safeties that have been used to starting. It's done nothing but help me get experience. I've had to learn the game quickly. I think it's gone well for me."
Oddly, Coleman will actually start alongside Tongue on Sunday, according to Edwards because starting free safety Jon McGraw has been hobbled by a groin pull. McGraw, listed as probable, likely will play, but Edwards didn't sound confident McGraw had a full game in him.
Edwards was impressed with Coleman's ascent.
"It's big when you say you're a starter and you're a rookie," he said. "In the NFL, most of those cases are first-round draft choices that do that. It's very difficult for a rookie to start — even back when I was playing. You know you've done a lot to earn that.
"I keep saying there are two things you've got to do to become a starter when you're young: Be coachable and available. If you're coachable and you're at practice every day, that means you're available. [Coleman] didn't miss any time. He was there every day he kept getting better every day."
Any scout worth his salary who didn't have Coleman highly rated wasn't watching the game. We can't get our 2nd's, 3rds, 4th's to start as rookies. Heck - they usually are gone in 3 years.
Hats off to Jets - they stole a playa at Safety one pick ahead of us in 5. Our 5th was cut. :mad:
Rack Bauer
09-10-2004, 05:01 PM
Just because the guy is starting doesn't mean he's good. Like the article said, he got his opportunity cuz Tongue got hurt.
Plus, like you said, he was taken one pick BEFORE our pick in the 5th round, not one pick after.
Although I'm sure we could of taken a safety in the 7th (instead of one of the 5 billion CBs) and he would of been better then Tony Dixon.
Chocolate Lab
09-10-2004, 05:05 PM
Shouldn't we be blaming Parcells? You know he's the one making these decisions. I'm sure the scouts give him a certain number of candidates to look at and he has the MAJOR decision on how they are finally graded.
However, isn't it helpful that the Jets are a much worse team than we are? It's a lot easier for a team drafting in the top dozen to find immediate starters as compared to a playoff team.
CoCo1
09-10-2004, 05:08 PM
Lots of early criticism of late for our 2004 draft. That's fair as long as people resist the urge to speak definitively. It is just WAAAAYYYY too early to even think about that.
Do I wish that our top 3 picks were of the quality to start game 1 for us? Sure. But this is a marathon, not a sprint. I'm not gonna wring my hands over the fact that Peterman is on IR, Rogers may not be active, and Julius is nursing sore ribs.
Lacewell and his good old boys need to go somewhere else.
Preferably in Florida with Coslett, Summerall and Keith Jackson.
Year Round Player Position * Pro Bowl Level
2003 1 Terence Newman DB We are great at Lottery picks *
2002 1 Roy Williams DB We are great at Lottery picks *
1999 1 Ebenezer Ekuban DE Bust
1998 1 Greg Ellis DE Good pick
1997 1 David LaFleur TE Bust Grade B-
2004 2 Julius Jones RB TBD
2004 2 Jacob Rogers T ????????
2003 2 Al Johnson C Good pick
2002 2 Andre Gurode G ??????
2002 2 Antonio Bryant WR Good pick
2001 2 Quincy Carter QB Gone Bust?
2001 2 Tony Dixon DB Bust
2000 2 Dwayne Goodrich DB Bust
1999 2 Solomon Page T Bust
1998 2 Flozell Adams T Great Pick *
1996 2 Kavika Pittman DE Bust
1996 2 Randall Godfrey LB JANP
1995 2 Sherman Williams RB Bust
1995 2 Kendell Watkins TE Bust
1995 2 Shane Hannah G Bust Grade D- 8 busts in 8 years?
2004 3 Stephen Peterman G ???????
2003 3 Jason Witten TE Great Pick *
2002 3 Derek Ross DB Bust
2001 3 Willie Blade DT Bust
1999 3 Dat Nguyen LB Great Pick *
1997 3 Dexter Coakley DB Great Pick *
1997 3 Steve Scifres G Bust
1997 3 Kenny Wheaton DB Bust
1996 3 Clay Shiver C Bust
1996 3 Stepfret Williams WR Bust
1996 3 Mike Ulufale DT Bust
1995 3 Charlie Williams DB Bust Mined 3 All pro's bevy busts Grade B-
2004 4 Bruce Thornton DB ???????
2003 4 Bradie James LB Good pick
2002 4 Jamar Martin RB Bust
2001 4 Markus Steele LB Bust
2000 4 Kareem Larrimore DB Bust
1999 4 Wane McGarity WR Bust
1999 4 Hundens Zellner DE Bust
1998 4 Michael Myers DT Bust
1997 4 Antonio Anderson DT Bust
1997 4 Macey Brooks WR Bust
1997 4 Nicky Sualua RB Bust
1995 4 Eric Bjornson WR JANP
1995 4 Alundis Brice DB Bust
1995 4 Linc Harden LB Bust Thats an F
2004 5 Sean Ryan TE ? Cut
2002 5 Ralph Hunter DB Good pick or bust?
2001 5 Matt Lehr G JANP
2000 5 Michael Wiley RB Bust
1998 5 Darren Hambrick LB Bust
1998 5 Oliver Ross T Bust
1996 5 Kenneth McDaniel G Bust
1996 5 Alan Campos LB Bust
1995 5 Edward Hervey WR Bust
1995 5 Dana Howard LB Bust D - Terrible
2003 6 B.J. Tucker DB Bust
2003 6 Zuriel Smith WR Bust
2002 6 Tyson Walter T Good pick
2002 6 Deveren Johnson WR Bust
2002 6 Bob Slowikowski TE Bust
2001 6 Daleroy Stewart DT Good pick
2000 6 Mario Edwards DB Good pick
1999 6 MarTay Jenkins WR Bust
1998 6 Izell Reese DB Bust
1997 6 Lee Vaughn DB Bust
1996 6 Wendell Davis DB JANP C - At least two avg players
2004 7 Nathan Jones DB ????
2004 7 Patrick Crayton WR ????
2004 7 Jacques Reeves DB ????
2003 7 Justin Bates G Bust
2001 7 Colston WeatheringtonDE Bust
2001 7 John Nix DT Bust
2001 7 Char-ron Dorsey T Bust
2000 7 Orantes Grant LB Bust
1999 7 Mike Lucky TE Bust
1999 7 Kelvin Garmon G Bust
1998 7 Tarik Smith RB Bust
1998 7 Antonio Fleming G Bust
1998 7 Rodrick Monroe TE Bust
1997 7 Omar Stoutmire DB Bust
1996 7 Ryan Wood RB Bust
1995 7 Oscar Sturgis DE Bust Grade F - All busto's
iceberg
09-10-2004, 05:25 PM
great, now go look at arizona's draft successes. then san deigo. then seattle. then washington. then miami.
until you rank them all, looking at one is as useless as on a nun.
the draft is just ONE way to get players and it's as much of a crapshoot as anything else.
and just because scouts say one thing doesn't mean you won't end up with carter on your team.
Hostile
09-10-2004, 05:28 PM
great, now go look at arizona's draft successes. then san deigo. then seattle. then washington. then miami.
until you rank them all, looking at one is as useless as on a nun.
the draft is just ONE way to get players and it's as much of a crapshoot as anything else.
and just because scouts say one thing doesn't mean you won't end up with carter on your team.
31 teams passed on this CB for 4 rounds until he was finally taken in the 5th round. yet somehow none of the other team's scouting departments need to be flushed.
I just don't get the rationale here. Several of the teams you mentioned pick earlier than us and hav eless success.
I think our scouting department does a good job. Now we just need the players to acclimate themselves to the current system and play hard.
31 teams passed on this CB for 4 rounds until he was finally taken in the 5th round. yet somehow none of the other team's scouting departments need to be flushed.
I just don't get the rationale here. Several of the teams you mentioned pick earlier than us and hav eless success.
I think our scouting department does a good job. Now we just need the players to acclimate themselves to the current system and play hard.
Look at our drafts past 10 years. Horrible job. My point is why can other teams mine day 2 starters and we struggle retaining day 1 picks?
Parcells coached it all up. But eventually you need to draft talent.
DCowboysGal
09-10-2004, 05:33 PM
Any scout worth his salary who didn't have Coleman highly rated wasn't watching the game. We can't get our 2nd's, 3rds, 4th's to start as rookies. Heck - they usually are gone in 3 years.
Hats off to Jets - they stole a playa at Safety one pick ahead of us in 5. Our 5th was cut. :mad:
Coleman was overlooked because of his relatively small stature (5'10", 200 lbs) for a FS and because he's good against the run and mediocre in pass coverage, the opposite of what a FS should be. He also lacks top-end speed so he needs to keep plays in front of him. I thought we didn't need another SS-type when we already had Tony Dixon/Woodson/Williams et al. I thought the way to go draft-wise is to fill a position where there is a dearth of quality candidates rather than select someone who would be redundant...
Outlaw Heroes
09-10-2004, 05:42 PM
Look at our drafts past 10 years. Horrible job. My point is why can other teams mine day 2 starters and we struggle retaining day 1 picks?
Ever heard of Mario Edwards? He was drafted in the 6th round (to name a fairly recent day 2 starter).
This argument is a waste of time. You're really reaching and, as far as I'm concerned, Hostile's already pointed out the failure in your logic.
Hostile
09-10-2004, 05:53 PM
Look at our drafts past 10 years. Horrible job. My point is why can other teams mine day 2 starters and we struggle retaining day 1 picks?
Parcells coached it all up. But eventually you need to draft talent.
I don't deny that our drafts have had lemons. We've also struck some gold.
Every team does that. All 32 of them.
There is an old adage in sports..."No guts, no glory." That means that sometimes you reach for a Kavika Pitman hoping he turns into the Charles Haley.
I don't always like our draft picks. Sometimes I get very mad at them. The fact remains we have a very good scoutign department or Bill Parcells would have already cleaned house.
Book it.
31WillHammerU
09-10-2004, 05:58 PM
And just which good 'ole boys are those?
Do you even know who our scouts are? Might be worth a little research before you cast stones.
So tell me, when is Lacewell's contract up? Hmm.
Who is in line to take over (on our staff).
What scout, on our staff, has direct ties to Ron Wolf(?), who by the way, is a friend and confidant of BP.
What scout has ties to Tom Landry and Gil Brandt? Hmm.
Good 'ole boys? Please. Did you ever stop to think that the scouts don't make the final call on players? Nah, I didn't think that you did.
:D
Hostile
09-10-2004, 06:06 PM
And just which good 'ole boys are those?
Do you even know who our scouts are? Might be worth a little research before you cast stones.
So tell me, when is Lacewell's contract up? Hmm.
Who is in line to take over (on our staff).
What scout, on our staff, has direct ties to Ron Wolf(?), who by the way, is a friend and confidant of BP.
What scout has ties to Tom Landry and Gil Brandt? Hmm.
Good 'ole boys? Please. Did you ever stop to think that the scouts don't make the final call on players? Nah, I didn't think that you did.
:D
Absolutely great post. 4 aces all the way.
I don't deny that our drafts have had lemons. We've also struck some gold.
Every team does that. All 32 of them.
There is an old adage in sports..."No guts, no glory." That means that sometimes you reach for a Kavika Pitman hoping he turns into the Charles Haley.
I don't always like our draft picks. Sometimes I get very mad at them. The fact remains we have a very good scoutign department or Bill Parcells would have already cleaned house.
Book it.
We have a new scouting department next draft.
Book that.
Absolutely great post. 4 aces all the way.
Accountability - You are in the blame game.
Banned_n_austin
09-10-2004, 06:49 PM
until you rank them all, looking at one is as useless as on a nun.
Hilarious.
Hilarious.
We are not well endowed up there.
iceberg
09-10-2004, 07:00 PM
Look at our drafts past 10 years. Horrible job. My point is why can other teams mine day 2 starters and we struggle retaining day 1 picks?
Parcells coached it all up. But eventually you need to draft talent.
look at ALL drafts in the last 10 years - where do we rate?
right now you're rating 1 person against 31 others and have not shown a bit of evidence against the rest, just said in a gomer fashion you're not happy.
iceberg
09-10-2004, 07:29 PM
Accountability - You are in the blame game.
not in as much as i've seen you in the "i don't give a dead rats arse what you think we're going 3-4" game.
not in as much as i've seen you in the "i don't give a dead rats arse what you think we're going 3-4" game.
Was our drafting good last 10 years? Answer that. I don't owe you research.
blindzebra
09-10-2004, 08:34 PM
Was our drafting good last 10 years? Answer that. I don't owe you research.
Come on, it's crystal clear what you are doing Nors.
Your Law trade proved non-existent, and since you have attacked the secondary, polled if we'd give up a #1 on Law, and now you are pointing out a lack of drafting.
What does it add up to? Nors building a case for why we should have given up a pick for Law.
The only drafting that matters right now is 2002-2004, because the core of our team is being built from those drafts.
2002: Williams is a pro bowler, Gurode is a starter, Hunter is starting, and Bryant and Walter are both pushing to start.
2003: Newman is near pro bowl level, Johnson is a starter, Witten is a future pro bowler, James is pushing to start.
2004: Every pick made the roster or practice squad.
Factor in FA moves and trades that got us Anderson, Glenn, Campbell, Singleton, Wiley, Key, Vinny, Henson, Romo, EG, Lee, Barnes, Tucker, Thornton, O'Neil and Shanle.
What was your point again?
KaiserSoze
09-10-2004, 08:38 PM
Any scout worth his salary who didn't have Coleman highly rated wasn't watching the game. We can't get our 2nd's, 3rds, 4th's to start as rookies. Heck - they usually are gone in 3 years.
Hats off to Jets - they stole a playa at Safety one pick ahead of us in 5. Our 5th was cut. :mad:
Is it because he got selected ONE choice before us that has you mad? That happens all the time. Parcells wanted the Pinner guy last year, Domanick Davis too. He missed. It happens.
If he dropped to us that would mean that they did not do their jobs.
Because that Sean Ryan guy gets cut, and the guy that the jets took a pick before starts, I don't understand.
So you mean we should have taken Coleman instead of Thorton.
dallasfaniac
09-10-2004, 08:40 PM
Any scout worth his salary who didn't have Coleman highly rated wasn't watching the game. We can't get our 2nd's, 3rds, 4th's to start as rookies. Heck - they usually are gone in 3 years.
Hats off to Jets - they stole a playa at Safety one pick ahead of us in 5. Our 5th was cut. :mad:
Our scouting dept sucks alright.
DJ Williams - LB
Sean Jones - FS
Butler - T
Quincy Wilson - RB
K Downey - G or G Brian Rimpf if there.
Allen Trade - 2
Hutch Trade - 4
Coakley trade - 5
2 - Joey Thomas - CB
4 - Ratliff (if there)
5 - Brandon Kennedy - NT
What round was Khiawatha drafted in again since we're comparing 5th round picks? (http://mazevo.com/mazevo/sm.x?c=dallascowboys&f=dallascowboysmain&archives=&m=32357&search=361420&#R361420)
Come on, it's crystal clear what you are doing Nors.
Your Law trade proved non-existent, and since you have attacked the secondary, polled if we'd give up a #1 on Law, and now you are pointing out a lack of drafting.
What does it add up to? Nors building a case for why we should have given up a pick for Law.
The only drafting that matters right now is 2002-2004, because the core of our team is being built from those drafts.
2002: Williams is a pro bowler, Gurode is a starter, Hunter is starting, and Bryant and Walter are both pushing to start.
2003: Newman is near pro bowl level, Johnson is a starter, Witten is a future pro bowler, James is pushing to start.
2004: Every pick made the roster or practice squad.
Factor in FA moves and trades that got us Anderson, Glenn, Campbell, Singleton, Wiley, Key, Vinny, Henson, Romo, EG, Lee, Barnes, Tucker, Thornton, O'Neil and Shanle.
What was your point again?
Its easy to nail top 8 picks overall
2004 draft in serious ?
My point was we sucked drafting past 10 years and the same scouting department IS still in place. Stop trying to argue me always and comprehend. Was our drafting past 10 years solid. I say NO.
BTW - What the hell did Parcells have to do with our 2002 draft?
KaiserSoze
09-10-2004, 08:42 PM
Our scouting dept sucks alright.
What round was Khiawatha drafted in again since we're comparing 5th round picks? (http://mazevo.com/mazevo/sm.x?c=dallascowboys&f=dallascowboysmain&archives=&m=32357&search=361420&#R361420)
I am fairly new but this fella thought that we got draft choices for Chad?
iceberg
09-10-2004, 08:42 PM
Was our drafting good last 10 years? Answer that. I don't owe you research.
question avoidance sucks. your logic sucks. don't make that my problem.
iceberg
09-10-2004, 08:43 PM
Its easy to nail top 8 picks overall
2004 draft in serious ?
My point was we sucked drafting past 10 years and the same scouting department IS still in place. Stop trying to argue me always and comprehend. Was our drafting past 10 years solid. I say NO.
BTW - What the hell did Parcells have to do with our 2002 draft?
you and balls on a preacher have more in common than you know.
Is it because he got selected ONE choice before us that has you mad? That happens all the time. Parcells wanted the Pinner guy last year, Domanick Davis too. He missed. It happens.
If he dropped to us that would mean that they did not do their jobs.
Because that Sean Ryan guy gets cut, and the guy that the jets took a pick before starts, I don't understand.
So you mean we should have taken Coleman instead of Thorton.
Bruce Thornton was a TERRIBLE 4th round pick. Kalen was an undrafted hybrid Gem. Coleman, starting Safety was a 5th rounder.
iceberg
09-10-2004, 08:46 PM
Bruce Thornton was a TERRIBLE 4th round pick. Kalen was an undrafted hybrid Gem. Coleman, starting Safety was a 5th rounder.
you still here?
hey, look - they doing a 3-4 over there. you're a god in the redlight district.
KaiserSoze
09-10-2004, 08:47 PM
Bruce Thornton was a TERRIBLE 4th round pick. Kalen was an undrafted hybrid Gem. Coleman, starting Safety was a 5th rounder.
I was a bit shocked by the Thorton choice. I had never heard of him.
you and balls on a preacher have more in common than you know.
Guess you are right. I am wrong. You might want to go smack forum if you can't discuss football maturely!
KaiserSoze
09-10-2004, 08:49 PM
Guess you are right. I am wrong. You might want to go smack forum if you can't discuss football maturely!
i agree. That was a bit mean.
you still here?
hey, look - they doing a 3-4 over there. you're a god in the redlight district.
Want to talk football? Go to bed its getting late buddy.
LaTunaNostra
09-10-2004, 08:50 PM
This thread can easily be moved to the smack forum.
It's up to you guys.
KaiserSoze
09-10-2004, 08:53 PM
This thread can easily be moved to the smack forum.
It's up to you guys.
i wish you wouldn't.
This is one sided. One guy does not like the other guy's opinion.
This is good football talk. And you don't see that much any more.
blindzebra
09-10-2004, 08:53 PM
Its easy to nail top 8 picks overall
2004 draft in serious ?
My point was we sucked drafting past 10 years and the same scouting department IS still in place. Stop trying to argue me always and comprehend. Was our drafting past 10 years solid. I say NO.
BTW - What the hell did Parcells have to do with our 2002 draft?
The same thing he had to do with the other 7 years you are complaining about.
Well over half of the 2002 roster is gone. Those draft mistakes from the Switzer to Campo years are all but gone, we have rebuilt through good drafts in 2002 and 2003, what may be another solid draft in 2004, plus very solid trades and FA signings.
Your case for why we should have traded for Law is weak. It was weak when it was possible and it's just as weak now.
We are building this team the right way. A trade for Law would be following the Galloway philosophy, over spend for one player to try to win it all. That is old Jerry, you know the one you've been complaining about in this thread. ;)
This thread can easily be moved to the smack forum.
It's up to you guys.
Out of line character attackers take threads down, thats wrong.
Waffle
09-10-2004, 08:54 PM
Nors...your list of "busts" is pretty accurate, yet you seem to want to put the blame squarely at the feet of the scouting department. Any chance inferior coaching, injury, or other factors had anything do do with the outcome of some of these players? Just asking.
dallasfaniac
09-10-2004, 08:55 PM
Nors, I do give you a fair share of cr@p and for this I apologize. If I hadn't, maybe you wouldn't post things like this.
Anyway, I as a fan know what you are going through. Every year, I can go back and see players like K Bell who I wanted the Cowboys to draft but didn't and that player turned out great. Why don't you see a million posts from me about these missed players? Because for every Bell, there's a couple Mario Monds whom I thought should be drafted and they never were drafted or bombed in the NFL.
I would create cheat sheet upon cheat sheet and be able to name 10 or 15 players that I liked when our pick came due, and half would never see an NFL snap or roster.
Yeah, it's great to point out the players that we missed, but don't be so quick to do so until you are ready to point out all of the players that you would have taken at that spot. Hindsight is always 20/20.
The same thing he had to do with the other 7 years you are complaining about.
Well over half of the 2002 roster is gone. Those draft mistakes from the Switzer to Campo years are all but gone, we have rebuilt through good drafts in 2002 and 2003, what may be another solid draft in 2004, plus very solid trades and FA signings.
Your case for why we should have traded for Law is as weak. It was weak when it was possible and it's just as weak now.
We are building this team the right way. A trade for Law would be following the Galloway philosophy, over spend for one player to try to win it all. That is old Jerry, you know the one you've been complaining about in this thread. ;)
THIS WAS NEVER A Ty Law thread. Why is that your answer? Our drafting past 10 years is sad.
Nors...your list of "busts" is pretty accurate, yet you seem to want to put the blame squarely at the feet of the scouting department. Any chance inferior coaching, injury, or other factors had anything do do with the outcome of some of these players? Just asking.
We are ok in top 10 picks in round 1. I give Coaches and JJ blame for day 1 blame. But day 2 have we had 1 "find" Not one bona fide "find" in 10 years.
And our Day 1 picks past 5 years are horrid other than Roy, Tnew.
(lottery)
LaTunaNostra
09-10-2004, 09:00 PM
Nors...your list of "busts" is pretty accurate, yet you seem to want to put the blame squarely at the feet of the scouting department. Any chance inferior coaching, injury, or other factors had anything do do with the outcome of some of these players? Just asking.
Waffle, Tuna doesn't even bother going to the combines.
That's how much he trusts his scouts, and coaches to not just evaluate talent, but evaluate it in light of what fits his concept of team.
What was done in pre Parcells days is too late to do anything about, but there has to be a corps of scouts here now Bill has faith in. He also has a wide range of buddies, college coaches, ex pro coaches and admins back in the college ranks, he draws on.
Hard to believe if he were dissatisfied with the pro personnel dept, he would not let JJ know.
blindzebra
09-10-2004, 09:02 PM
THIS WAS NEVER A Ty Law thread. Why is that your answer? Our drafting past 10 years is sad.
Nors it's obvious, what this is about.
You wanted to trade for Law. This thread is a, "We could get a known player instead of another bad draft pick," thread.
It's never a single thread or post with your ideas for the team. You lay a foundation one post at a time. You don't paint a picture, you build a collage. :D
Bruce Thornton was a TERRIBLE 4th round pick. Kalen was an undrafted hybrid Gem. Coleman, starting Safety was a 5th rounder.
From one preseason, you have decided B. Thornton was a terrible pick and K. Thorton is a gem? K. Thornton had some good games in preseason, happens all the time. It doesn't mean he will amount to anything. He is not an everydown player yet (at LB or DE). He has shown a nice speed rush against backups.
B. Thorton has all skills you look for in a CB. Has the skills to easily move to FS if needed.
It is way to early to make any judgement on this draft.
KaiserSoze
09-10-2004, 09:06 PM
From one preseason, you have decided B. Thornton was a terrible pick and K. Thorton is a gem? K. Thornton had some good games in preseason, happens all the time. It doesn't mean he will amount to anything. He is not an everydown player yet (at LB or DE). He has shown a nice speed rush against backups.
I like Thornton. He has a knack for rushing the passer. I think we need that.
B. Thorton has all skills you look for in a CB. Has the skills to easily move to FS if needed.
i was expecting big things from Thorton after listening to what goose had to say. I don't think he has done much this preseason. Maybe I missed it.
It is way to early to make any judgement on this draft.
Drafts can never be evaluated early. That is a mistake. But in all honesty, we have Julius and Patrick Crayton to show for us right now. That is not great.
blindzebra
09-10-2004, 09:06 PM
We are ok in top 10 picks in round 1. I give Coaches and JJ blame for day 1 blame. But day 2 have we had 1 "find" Not one bona fide "find" in 10 years.
And our Day 1 picks past 5 years are horrid other than Roy, Tnew.
(lottery)
We have added Williams, Newman, Witten, Gurode, Bryant, and Johnson on first day picks and they are on solid ground. We added Jones, Rogers, Peterman and Henson this year with first day picks.
Walter, James, and Hunter are all second day picks that are in the mix to start.
blindzebra
09-10-2004, 09:08 PM
I like Thornton. He has a knack for rushing the passer. I think we need that.
i was expecting big things from Thorton after listening to what goose had to say. I don't think he has done much this preseason. Maybe I missed it.
Drafts can never be evaluated early. That is a mistake. But in all honesty, we have Julius and Patrick Crayton to show for us right now. That is not great.
The ENTIRE 2004 draft class made the team. What more can you want?
Waffle
09-10-2004, 09:08 PM
Waffle, Tuna doesn't even bother going to the combines.
That's how much he trusts his scouts, and coaches to not just evaluate talent, but evaluate it in light of what fits his concept of team.
What was done in pre Parcells days is too late to do anything about, but there has to be a corps of scouts here now Bill has faith in. He also has a wide range of buddies, college coaches, ex pro coaches and admins back in the college ranks, he draws on.
Hard to believe if he were dissatisfied with the pro personnel dept, he would not let JJ know.
That's all very true and I believe if Bill was unhappy, JJ would do something about it. Just to clairify though, my "inferior coaching" statement was actually directed towards Campo/Gailey/Switzer. Nors is talking about the last 10 years, so that' why I ask the question.
LaTunaNostra
09-10-2004, 09:09 PM
There's a good section in the Shropshire book "When the Tuna Wnet Down to Dallas" on the 2003 draft, including info on Tnew and Witten and what Bill saw in them.
This was part of the Al Johnson scouting.
Second round- Al Johnson, Wisconsin. A six-three, 305-pound center. His size and footwork were not exceptional and many scouts thought of Johnson as another garden-variety Big Ten OL. Parcells had seen characteristics that pleased him. Tough, nasty blocker. Viciously attacks opponents. Likes to get to the second level and annihilate linebackers. Parcellls had dispatched George Warhop, his new offensive line coach, up to Madison to provide some specialized test to determine how well Johnson could identify defensive alignments. Warhop was happy with the outcome. p. 122
These folks know what they're doin'.
Waffle
09-10-2004, 09:11 PM
There's a good section in the Shropshire book "When the Tuna Wnet Down to Dallas" on the 2003 draft, including info on Tnew and Witten and what Bill saw in them.
This was part of the Al Johnson scouting.
These folks know what they're doin'.
Maybe Matt Mosley has brainwashed Nors. :D
LaTunaNostra
09-10-2004, 09:11 PM
That's all very true and I believe if Bill was unhappy, JJ would do something about it. Just to clairify though, my "inferior coaching" statement was actually directed towards Campo/Gailey/Switzer. Nors is talking about the last 10 years, so that' why I ask the question.
yea, I know.
I was just directing my response to you because you were making so much sense. LOL
KaiserSoze
09-10-2004, 09:12 PM
There's a good section in the Shropshire book "When the Tuna Wnet Down to Dallas" on the 2003 draft, including info on Tnew and Witten and what Bill saw in them.
This was part of the Al Johnson scouting.
These folks know what they're doin'.
Thanks for posting that. It is interesting.
But that said Warhop. He is our OL coach, right and not a scout. That sounds like Big Bill was pulling the trigger.
From one preseason, you have decided B. Thornton was a terrible pick and K. Thorton is a gem? K. Thornton had some good games in preseason, happens all the time. It doesn't mean he will amount to anything. He is not an everydown player yet (at LB or DE). He has shown a nice speed rush against backups.
B. Thorton has all skills you look for in a CB. Has the skills to easily move to FS if needed.
It is way to early to make any judgement on this draft.
But he was a clear reach in 4th round.
Waffle
09-10-2004, 09:13 PM
But he was a clear reach in 4th round.
According to Mel Kiper?? Ok, that clears that up!
LaTunaNostra
09-10-2004, 09:14 PM
Maybe Matt Mosley has brainwashed Nors. :D
It's the new mantra.
Our scouting is not as good as the Patriots'!
And it's true, there is no Scott Pioli here. He is an exceptional FO mind, perhaps will even turn out of Ron Wolf longevity.
I think that's what Nors is "getting at". :)
But he was a clear reach in 4th round.
Says who? Mel Kiper? Other draft experts called it great value. Make your own judgements. Did you watch him in college extensively? One preseason is not enough time to judge. This is Pete's third year in Dallas and the first I think that we can fairly judge him.
Carter got plenty of chances. Can't Bruce and Pete? :D
By the way, Nors, you sure are fired up tonight. Eat a lot of sugar this afternoon or what?
I think they tanked.
Maybe day 1 last year Parcells did good. I'm glad he's here but JJ kept HIS scouting staff..............
Day 1 2004 draft is iffy.
Name 1 day round two player these scouts have found that was a score past decade??
Says who? Mel Kiper? Other draft experts called it great value. Make your own judgements. Did you watch him in college extensively? One preseason is not enough time to judge. This is Pete's third year in Dallas and the first I think that we can fairly judge him.
Carter got plenty of chances. Can't Bruce and Pete? :D
By the way, Nors, you sure are fired up tonight. Eat a lot of sugar this afternoon or what?
I go 24/24 at everything I do. I sleep for 6 hours and get pissed I have to.
blindzebra
09-10-2004, 09:20 PM
I go 24/24 at everything I do. I sleep for 6 hours and get pissed I have to.
So you have a 30 hour day? :D
dallasfaniac
09-10-2004, 09:21 PM
To be fair, since I pointed out some of Nors' choices, I will post some of the players that if we had drafted at that time I would have said, "Alright, not too bad."
In no particular order.:
Keyaron Fox
Ahmad Childress
Chris Perry
Johnnie Morant
Joey Thomas
Stuart Schweigert
Carlos Joseph
Says who? Mel Kiper? Other draft experts called it great value. Make your own judgements. Did you watch him in college extensively? One preseason is not enough time to judge. This is Pete's third year in Dallas and the first I think that we can fairly judge him.
Carter got plenty of chances. Can't Bruce and Pete? :D
By the way, Nors, you sure are fired up tonight. Eat a lot of sugar this afternoon or what?
Thornton was a consensus reach. I compile a top 350 list each draft and hit up all the scouts, guru's and add my 2 cents. Coyle had him as 33rd rated cb in draft.
It's the new mantra.
Our scouting is not as good as the Patriots'!
And it's true, there is no Scott Pioli here. He is an exceptional FO mind, perhaps will even turn out of Ron Wolf longevity.
I think that's what Nors is "getting at". :)
My point was our scouting staff has hearst this team for a decade. Why are all trying to argue that as a fact? This has nothing to do with Pats.........
To be fair, since I pointed out some of Nors' choices, I will post some of the players that if we had drafted at that time I would have said, "Alright, not too bad."
In no particular order.:
Keyaron Fox
Ahmad Childress
Chris Perry
Johnnie Morant
Joey Thomas
Stuart Schweigert
Carlos Joseph
Thorbor
EriK Coleman
Schaub
Ratliff
LaTunaNostra
09-10-2004, 09:28 PM
Thanks for posting that. It is interesting.
But that said Warhop. He is our OL coach, right and not a scout. That sounds like Big Bill was pulling the trigger.
I'm tempted to type the whole 240 odd pages out, but I'll restrain myself.
Yes, but the point is Parcells does have his finger on the trigger, and utilizes his coaches as well as the folks working in pro personnel to evaluate talent. A good thing. At his age, and years in the coaching profession, he has built an incredible network, and often comments on the value of a potential draftee's college experience, and or coaching. Remember what he said of Rogers and Peterman and how playing for championship teams in college gave them a competitive and learning curve edge?
What Shopshire said "intrigued" Bill about Terrance was his ability and " instinct to seek out the football in midflight and go catch it. Newman had a rare and unique torque dynamic working for him that enabled him to reach and secure the football before the receiver could.. When it came to making the catch, Terrance Newman looked like a Willy Mays natural. And finally, Newman was a product of Kansas State. Bill Snyder, the Wildcats coach, had taken a program that had lingered at the end of the trail, as far as college football was concerned, and somehow produced a Top 10 program that could not and would not tolerate Heisman Trophy candidates, pretty boys and party boys."
Every player comes into Dallas now, draftee, rookie undrafted FA, or vet, is a Parcells call.
The fish stinks at the head, Nors. You can't throw mud at the scouts w/o it getting on Tuna.
I'm tempted to type the whole 240 odd pages out, but I'll restrain myself.
Yes, but the point is Parcells does have his finger on the trigger, and utilizes his coaches as well as the folks working in pro personnel to evaluate talent. A good thing. At his age, and years in the coaching profession, he has built an incredible network, and often comments on the value of a potential draftee's college experience, and or coaching. Remember what he said of Rogers and Peterman and how playing for championship teams in college gave them a competitive and learning curve edge?
What Shopshire said "intrigued" Bill about Terrance was his ability and " instinct to seek out the football in midflight and go catch it. Newman had a rare and unique torque dynamic working for him that enabled him to reach and secure the football before the receiver could.. When it came to making the catch, Terrance Newman looked like a Willy Mays natural. And finally, Newman was a product of Kansas State. Bill Snyder, the Wildcats coach, had taken a program that had lingered at the end of the trail, as far as college football was concerned, and somehow produced a Top 10 program that could not and would not tolerate Heisman Trophy candidates, pretty boys and party boys."
Every player comes into Dallas now, draftee, rookie undrafted FA, or vet, is a Parcells call.
The fish stinks at the head, Nors. You can't throw mud at the scouts w/o it getting on Tuna.
I think Parcells is more involved but JJ is GM. And it will never be lear who is calling the shots. Newman and Roy are easy picks, we could do that. I'm not impressed last two drafts other than Witten, James and hopefully Johnson if healthy.
Rack Bauer
09-10-2004, 09:37 PM
The fish stinks at the head, Nors. You can't throw mud at the scouts w/o it getting on Tuna.
Nors will try it anyway.
He'll try to "Bend" things to suit his "stance".
For instance...
Charles Haley was the guy that put us over the top.... Nors own words. He used them when referring to Ty Law when he said Law would do the same thing (which he wouldn't have).
Yet Terrel Suggs is too small, too slow, and too weak to play in the NFL.
Suggs already proved him wrong. But instead of admitting he was/is wrong, he bashes Suggs' personal life and talks about how he is "terrible" vs the Run.
I have no problem with people that have strong beliefs like Nors, as long as they're man enough to admit when they're wrong about something. I've never seen a post where Nors admitted to being wrong about anything. Even with the Ty Law situation. It's not "I was wrong". It's "Bill Parcells should of done this cuz I am right."
Nors will try it anyway.
He'll try to "Bend" things to suit his "stance".
For instance...
Charles Haley was the guy that put us over the top.... Nors own words. He used them when referring to Ty Law when he said Law would do the same thing (which he wouldn't have).
Yet Terrel Suggs is too small, too slow, and too weak to play in the NFL.
Suggs already proved him wrong. But instead of admitting he was/is wrong, he bashes Suggs' personal life and talks about how he is "terrible" vs the Run.
I have no problem with people that have strong beliefs like Nors, as long as they're man enough to admit when they're wrong about something. I've never seen a post where Nors admitted to being wrong about anything. Even with the Ty Law situation. It's not "I was wrong". It's "Bill Parcells should of done this cuz I am right."
Newman was the shutdown corner we need. Not a situational pass rusher, Ogobogu, Thortnon do that role and better.
Where are we without Tnew?
KaiserSoze
09-10-2004, 09:41 PM
The fish stinks at the head, Nors. You can't throw mud at the scouts w/o it getting on Tuna.
i love what Parcells brings to us.
Do you think that Parcells had a good draft this year? I know it takes time but on the surface how does this compare?
Rack Bauer
09-10-2004, 09:43 PM
Newman was the shutdown corner we need. Not a situational pass rusher, Ogobogu, Thortnon do that role and better.
Where are we without Tnew?
Depends. Who would we have IN PLACE of TNew?
With Terrell Suggs we wouldn't of needed Marcellus Wiley. We could of got a CB in FA.
With Kevin Williams we wouldn't be having the questions at DT we're having.
With Byron Leftwich we wouldn't of needed Henson, although it's too early to judge that one.
We could of drafted any one of those guys and we would of been fine at one position and weak at another, just like we are now.
LaTunaNostra
09-10-2004, 09:46 PM
Thorbor
EriK Coleman
Schaub
Ratliff
Nors, did you know Coach Edwards has had a change of heart on Coleman?
Kid had a great preseason, but Reggie Tongue is starting.
Ratliff - he's another ball hawking kid with great instincts given a lot of leeway in prseason. But push comes to shove, his inexperience coincides with his lack of speed and what you'll see this season is spot action from him, like Coleman.
They'll both see the field, and have "earned" it, but there is no way to say right now they'll be on any rookie all star team.
Schaub has all the makings of a perennial Mr August.
Mosley evaluated our rookies too soon and found them lacking.
I think you're evaluating your value board ringers too soon and finding them Pro Bowlers.
KaiserSoze
09-10-2004, 09:47 PM
Depends. Who would we have IN PLACE of TNew?
With Terrell Suggs we wouldn't of needed Marcellus Wiley. We could of got a CB in FA.
With Kevin Williams we wouldn't be having the questions at DT we're having.
With Byron Leftwich we wouldn't of needed Henson, although it's too early to judge that one.
We could of drafted any one of those guys and we would of been fine at one position and weak at another, just like we are now.
That was a good post.
did you like our draft this year Rack?
blindzebra
09-10-2004, 09:49 PM
That was a good post.
did you like our draft this year Rack?
We have a second first rd pick and every pick made the roster or practice squad, I think it speaks for itself. ;)
LaTunaNostra
09-10-2004, 09:50 PM
i love what Parcells brings to us.
Do you think that Parcells had a good draft this year? I know it takes time but on the surface how does this compare?
The absence of a first rounder (decision to trade down) will always make this draft look weak. But it's way way way too early to tell how good it was.
I suspect down the road, tho, we get at least three solid starters and a specials ace out of it. Not to mention the 'unusual' draftee - Henson.
KaiserSoze
09-10-2004, 09:54 PM
The absence of a first rounder (decision to trade down) will always make this draft look weak. But it's way way way too early to tell how good it was.
I suspect down the road, tho, we get at least three solid starters and a specials ace out of it. Not to mention the 'unusual' draftee - Henson.
I agree!
Getting Henson was like an extra choice. Even though he cost us next year, this was a great pickup. He looked nice in preseason and I have my fingers crossed for him.
Nors, did you know Coach Edwards has had a change of heart on Coleman?
Kid had a great preseason, but Reggie Tongue is starting.
Ratliff - he's another ball hawking kid with great instincts given a lot of leeway in prseason. But push comes to shove, his inexperience coincides with his lack of speed and what you'll see this season is spot action from him, like Coleman.
They'll both see the field, and have "earned" it, but there is no way to say right now they'll be on any rookie all star team.
Schaub has all the makings of a perennial Mr August.
Mosley evaluated our rookies too soon and found them lacking.
I think you're evaluating your value board ringers too soon and finding them Pro Bowlers.
Coleman and Tongue both starting. You have more recent news?
LaTunaNostra
09-10-2004, 09:57 PM
Coleman and Tongue both starting. You have more recent news?
Coleman is NOT starting. That decision got rescinded with Tongue's recovery.
I think it's mentioned in the article on Carter I posted in the NFL Zone today.
SURPRISE START FOR COLEMAN
By MARK CANNIZZARO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Email Archives
Print Reprint
September 10, 2004 -- This question was posed to Erik Coleman yesterday, three days before he will play — and start — the first NFL game of his career: "If I told you at the beginning of training camp that you would be a starter in the regular-season opener, what would your reaction have been?"
Coleman: "I would have said, 'How? What did I do to be able to get this far?' "
What did Coleman, a fifth-round draft pick, do to become a starter in his first NFL game?
First, he got lucky when projected starter Reggie Tongue injured his left calf muscle and missed some three weeks of practice, thrusting Coleman into the starting spot in practices and in preseason games.
From there, all Coleman has done is perform, play smartly, be around the ball and gain the confidence of the coaching staff.
Even when Tongue, an eight-year veteran who was signed to a free agent contract in the offseason, became healthy, Coleman remained with the first team.
Yesterday, officially acknowledging what most observers had long ago figured out, Herman Edwards named Coleman the starter for Sunday's regular-season opener against the Bengals at Giants Stadium.
"I'm very fortunate, I thank the coaches for giving me the opportunity and I plan on making them very happy with their decision to play me," Coleman said.
"You never know," Edwards said. "It's the Wally Pipp story. Erik has done a great job for us. He's a young player, drafted in the fifth round. We liked him and felt like he had a great upside. He's very intelligent, he can communicate the calls and he's gained confidence by playing.
"He doesn't know anything but starting," Edwards joked, referring to how quickly Coleman was inserted into the Jets' starting lineup. "He probably just figures, 'I'm supposed to start.' "
The truth is Coleman is a very humble, nose-to-the-grindstone type. He was anything but celebrating his starting job.
Coleman said starting "means a lot" to him, but was quick to add, "Then again, I don't really have too much time to be happy about it. I have to go out there and perform and do well, keep my head down and make plays. Maybe after the season I'll look back and be happy about what I did."
Coleman called Tongue's training camp injury "good for me, but it was good for the team, too."
"It gave me reps with the first team," Coleman said. "It just makes us deeper. If someone goes down we've got three safeties that have been used to starting. It's done nothing but help me get experience. I've had to learn the game quickly. I think it's gone well for me."
Oddly, Coleman will actually start alongside Tongue on Sunday, according to Edwards because starting free safety Jon McGraw has been hobbled by a groin pull. McGraw, listed as probable, likely will play, but Edwards didn't sound confident McGraw had a full game in him.
Edwards was impressed with Coleman's ascent.
"It's big when you say you're a starter and you're a rookie," he said. "In the NFL, most of those cases are first-round draft choices that do that. It's very difficult for a rookie to start — even back when I was playing. You know you've done a lot to earn that.
"I keep saying there are two things you've got to do to become a starter when you're young: Be coachable and available. If you're coachable and you're at practice every day, that means you're available. [Coleman] didn't miss any time. He was there every day he kept getting better every day."
Waffle
09-10-2004, 09:58 PM
I think they tanked.
Maybe day 1 last year Parcells did good. I'm glad he's here but JJ kept HIS scouting staff..............
Day 1 2004 draft is iffy.
Name 1 day round two player these scouts have found that was a score past decade??
Define "Score." Starter, or do these Day 2 picks have to be Pro-Bowlers to be considered such? My comments are in in parenthesis.
2004 4 Bruce Thornton DB ??????? (Correct. We don't know yet)
2003 4 Bradie James LB Good pick (Correct...so far)
2002 4 Jamar Martin RB Bust (Did a decent job while here you'd have to admit)
2001 4 Markus Steele LB Bust (Great Special Teams Player / LB Bust)
2000 4 Kareem Larrimore DB Bust (Agreed)
1999 4 Wane McGarity WR Bust (Yeah, he didn't really do much)
1999 4 Hundens Zellner DE Bust (Was injured quite a bit. At least still in NFL)
1998 4 Michael Myers DT Bust (Started for nearly 2 years. Solid, but not spectacular)
1997 4 Antonio Anderson DT Bust (Agreed)
1997 4 Macey Brooks WR Bust (Yeah, he was a failure)
1997 4 Nicky Sualua RB Bust (Yeah...I wonder why? More like "busted")
1995 4 Eric Bjornson WR JANP (Not Novacek, but better than LaFleur at least)
1995 4 Alundis Brice DB Bust (Agreed)
1995 4 Linc Harden LB Bust Thats an F (Utter Failure)
2004 5 Sean Ryan TE ? Cut (On the PS Nors...come on!! Too Early)
2002 5 Pete Hunter DB Good pick or bust? (We'll find out this year)
2001 5 Matt Lehr G JANP (He's been a starter at least. Average.)
2000 5 Michael Wiley RB Bust (Had flashes, but didn't pan out)
1998 5 Darren Hambrick LB Bust (This guy was just plain stupid.)
1998 5 Oliver Ross T Bust (Agreed)
1996 5 Kenneth McDaniel G Bust (Agreed)
1996 5 Alan Campos LB Bust (Agreed)
1995 5 Edward Hervey WR Bust (Agreed)
1995 5 Dana Howard LB Bust D - Terrible (Granted)
2003 6 B.J. Tucker DB Bust (Oh well)
2003 6 Zuriel Smith WR Bust (Maybe we'll see him again)
2002 6 Tyson Walter T Good pick (Agreed)
2002 6 Deveren Johnson WR Bust (Was a "project" from the outset)
2002 6 Bob Slowikowski TE Bust (Got injured in camp. Give the guy a break)
2001 6 Daleroy Stewart DT Good pick
2000 6 Mario Edwards DB Good pick
1999 6 MarTay Jenkins WR Bust (Really? Pretty decent, especially as a returner w/ Cardinals for awhile before injury set in)
1998 6 Izell Reese DB Bust (Adequate. Made another NFL roster at least)
1997 6 Lee Vaughn DB Bust (Yep)
1996 6 Wendell Davis DB JANP C - At least two avg players
2004 7 Nathan Jones DB ???? (agreed)
2004 7 Patrick Crayton WR ???? (agreed)
2004 7 Jacques Reeves DB ???? (agreed)
2003 7 Justin Bates G Bust (Yep)
2001 7 Colston WeatheringtonDE Bust (Not for the Arena League! HA)
2001 7 John Nix DT Bust (This guy is better than you think)
2001 7 Char-ron Dorsey T Bust (yep)
2000 7 Orantes Grant LB Bust (Good Special Teams Player, LB Bust)
1999 7 Mike Lucky TE Bust (Got injured)
1999 7 Kelvin Garmon G Bust (Came into league w/ Broken Leg)
1998 7 Tarik Smith RB Bust (Agreed)
1998 7 Antonio Fleming G Bust (Agreed)
1998 7 Rodrick Monroe TE Bust (Agreed)
1997 7 Omar Stoutmire DB Bust (Was starting for Giants as recently as last season)
1996 7 Ryan Wood RB Bust (Agreed)
1995 7 Oscar Sturgis DE Bust Grade F - All busto's
I think it's safe to say that many Day 2 picks made in the mid to late 90s didn't pan out for whatever reason. Why do you think we were 5-11 three years straight? But really, how have other teams done in comparison? Do we really have a barometer on how the Bill Parcells drafts will turn out? I say the jury is still out there.
I don't follow another team as close as the Cowboys, but a comparison to other teams, researching who had successful Day 2 drafts would help make your point more valid. There's your homework assignment!! :)
LaTunaNostra
09-10-2004, 10:01 PM
"I'm very fortunate, I thank the coaches for giving me the opportunity and I plan on making them very happy with their decision to play me," Coleman said.
My bad! You're right, I'm wrong. I did not read it thru -
Safety Reggie Tongue,
who lost his starting strong safety job to rookie Erik Coleman after missing 25 practices with a calf injury, will start after all. He'll replace Jon McGraw (abdominal pain) at free safety. McGraw is listed as probable.
__________________________________________________ _______
dallasfaniac
09-10-2004, 10:02 PM
Thorbor
EriK Coleman
Schaub
Ratliff
Are these your picks that you think will do well, or ones that you thought would do well and have thus far been let downs like the ones I posted? I have to ask because I've seen hundreds of players that you mentioned and am not sure where you stand.
KaiserSoze
09-10-2004, 10:03 PM
Coleman is NOT starting. That decision got rescinded with Tongue's recovery.
I think it's mentioned in the article on Carter I posted in the NFL Zone today.
You sure know alot about the Jets.
Do you live in NY?
My bad! You're right, I'm wrong. I did not read it thru -
Safety Reggie Tongue,
who lost his starting strong safety job to rookie Erik Coleman after missing 25 practices with a calf injury, will start after all. He'll replace Jon McGraw (abdominal pain) at free safety. McGraw is listed as probable.
__________________________________________________ _______
I am impressed with Jets attacking style. They are a serious sleeper - JMO
TONGUE TIME: With FS Jon McGraw nursing a strained abdominal muscle, Reggie Tongue will start, Edwards said. McGraw, listed as probable, could play in a backup role. . . . Edwards confirmed what had become obvious two weeks ago: Rookie SS Erik Coleman will start. He leapfrogged Tongue on the depth chart when Tongue missed two weeks of camp with a calf injury. "The Wally Pipp story," Edwards said.
You sure know alot about the Jets.
Do you live in NY?
Had heritage in Poughkepsie NY, Brooklyn NY, Commack LI/NY, Waterbury, CT, Boston and Providence! I am all Northeast!
Erik Coleman is a stud, mark that.
LaTunaNostra
09-10-2004, 10:06 PM
You sure know alot about the Jets.
Do you live in NY?
I used to know a lot about the Jets. :D But at least now I have Nors to enlighten me.
I live in New England.
31WillHammerU
09-10-2004, 10:21 PM
So Nors, you still trying to figure out who is actually in our scouting dept.?
I see that you haven't answered my questions.
So Nors, you still trying to figure out who is actually in our scouting dept.?
I see that you haven't answered my questions.
Lack of results past decade!
31WillHammerU
09-10-2004, 10:24 PM
Lack of results past decade!
That's your answer? You don't know do you? Figures. :rolleyes:
blindzebra
09-10-2004, 10:26 PM
That's your answer? You don't know do you? Figures. :rolleyes:
Get used to it, that's a typical answer when you've boxed him in. ;)
That's your answer? You don't know do you? Figures. :rolleyes:
Its factual past 10 years of drafts sucked. I'm on you, who are the scouts so I can archive that.
31WillHammerU
09-10-2004, 10:28 PM
Get used to it, that's a typical answer when you've boxed him in. ;)
Yea, I know. He is much better when he is contained in a box. :D
31WillHammerU
09-10-2004, 10:30 PM
Its factual past 10 years of drafts sucked. I'm on you, who are the scouts so I can archive that.
I'll give you the most important name, then you can do the rest. How's that?
Here's your name.
Bryan Broaddus. Go ahead.
KaiserSoze
09-10-2004, 10:30 PM
So Nors, you still trying to figure out who is actually in our scouting dept.?
I see that you haven't answered my questions.
I am always for the underdog so here goes.
Can you name the Cowboys' scouts?
Hostile
09-10-2004, 10:38 PM
Come on, it's crystal clear what you are doing Nors.
Your Law trade proved non-existent, and since you have attacked the secondary, polled if we'd give up a #1 on Law, and now you are pointing out a lack of drafting.
What does it add up to? Nors building a case for why we should have given up a pick for Law.
The only drafting that matters right now is 2002-2004, because the core of our team is being built from those drafts.
2002: Williams is a pro bowler, Gurode is a starter, Hunter is starting, and Bryant and Walter are both pushing to start.
2003: Newman is near pro bowl level, Johnson is a starter, Witten is a future pro bowler, James is pushing to start.
2004: Every pick made the roster or practice squad.
Factor in FA moves and trades that got us Anderson, Glenn, Campbell, Singleton, Wiley, Key, Vinny, Henson, Romo, EG, Lee, Barnes, Tucker, Thornton, O'Neil and Shanle.
What was your point again?
Great Post.
Hostile
09-10-2004, 10:40 PM
Its easy to nail top 8 picks overall
2004 draft in serious ?
My point was we sucked drafting past 10 years and the same scouting department IS still in place. Stop trying to argue me always and comprehend. Was our drafting past 10 years solid. I say NO.
BTW - What the hell did Parcells have to do with our 2002 draft?
You're missing the point. Parcells with these same guys of the last 10 years has made a huge difference. They'll be around for a long time.
Waffle
09-10-2004, 10:43 PM
Its factual past 10 years of drafts sucked. I'm on you, who are the scouts so I can archive that.
Actually, it's not "factual" that the past 10 years have sucked. You don't have enough data to prove your point about the last 3. You still haven't even tried to address my direct refutation. However, I'm granting you a significant number of drafts in the mid-late 90s were substandard. Have you no response??
Waffle
09-10-2004, 11:07 PM
That's what I thought. Your silence speaks volumes.
Chocolate Lab
09-10-2004, 11:41 PM
I'm tempted to type the whole 240 odd pages out, but I'll restrain myself.
Yes, but the point is Parcells does have his finger on the trigger, and utilizes his coaches as well as the folks working in pro personnel to evaluate talent. A good thing. At his age, and years in the coaching profession, he has built an incredible network, and often comments on the value of a potential draftee's college experience, and or coaching. Remember what he said of Rogers and Peterman and how playing for championship teams in college gave them a competitive and learning curve edge?
What Shopshire said "intrigued" Bill about Terrance was his ability and " instinct to seek out the football in midflight and go catch it. Newman had a rare and unique torque dynamic working for him that enabled him to reach and secure the football before the receiver could.. When it came to making the catch, Terrance Newman looked like a Willy Mays natural. And finally, Newman was a product of Kansas State. Bill Snyder, the Wildcats coach, had taken a program that had lingered at the end of the trail, as far as college football was concerned, and somehow produced a Top 10 program that could not and would not tolerate Heisman Trophy candidates, pretty boys and party boys."
Every player comes into Dallas now, draftee, rookie undrafted FA, or vet, is a Parcells call.
The fish stinks at the head, Nors. You can't throw mud at the scouts w/o it getting on Tuna.
In the midst of this crazy thread, thanks for posting that Herms... Good stuff there on Newman. Frankly, I wondered if he was more a Jerry pick, although I never doubted Parcells was on board.
But this kind of disputes all those naysayers (one notable one now departed comes to mind) always screaming about Newman having lousy ball skills, doesn't it?
iceberg
09-10-2004, 11:44 PM
Want to talk football? Go to bed its getting late buddy.
so, you're the dick i always saw. got it.
Rack Bauer
09-11-2004, 01:59 AM
That was a good post.
did you like our draft this year Rack?
Well, I'm a Notre Dame fan so I like that pick.
I liked the Rogers pick, but now seeing how the bigger, stronger, more athletic Tucker has beat him out I wish we hadn't drafted him. Especially since we have a good backup already.
I thought Peterman was a second day pick so I wasn't very happy with him either.
Thornton was a bit of a reach.
Didn't think Ryan was a good pick.
I don't mind the 7th round picks though. I understand why they were picked. I really like the Crayton pick now.
I liked the trade down, but I would of taken either Justin Smiley (at the time) or Bob Sanders. We could really use a Bob Sanders right now, huh?
Then I would of taken Julius with the second second rounder.
With the third rounder I would of taken Matt Ware, Keyaron Fox, or Travelle Wharton.
Still too early to tell on anything at this point though. We'll see how JJ works out at least.
KaiserSoze
09-11-2004, 07:12 AM
Well, I'm a Notre Dame fan so I like that pick.
I liked the Rogers pick, but now seeing how the bigger, stronger, more athletic Tucker has beat him out I wish we hadn't drafted him. Especially since we have a good backup already.
I thought Peterman was a second day pick so I wasn't very happy with him either.
Thornton was a bit of a reach.
Didn't think Ryan was a good pick.
I don't mind the 7th round picks though. I understand why they were picked. I really like the Crayton pick now.
I liked the trade down, but I would of taken either Justin Smiley (at the time) or Bob Sanders. We could really use a Bob Sanders right now, huh?
I don't think that Sanders guy is even playing for the Colts. I think he even got a roster excemption because he held out and could not pass a physical.
Then I would of taken Julius with the second second rounder.
With the third rounder I would of taken Matt Ware, Keyaron Fox, or Travelle Wharton.
Still too early to tell on anything at this point though. We'll see how JJ works out at least.
Who would you have taken besides Julius. I think all the other good rbs were taken by then. We actually got lucky to get him there.
Outlaw Heroes
09-11-2004, 07:16 AM
But day 2 have we had 1 "find" Not one bona fide "find" in 10 years.
This is just willful blindness on your part. As I pointed out on the very first page of this thread, Mario Edwards was found in the sixth round. You want more? Pete Hunder, this year's starting corner was found in the fifth round. Zuriel Smith, who returned kicks for us last year was found in the seventh. Torrin Tucker and Kalen Thorton, our starting RT and 3rd down pass-rush specialist, respectively, weren't even drafted (talk about steals!).
All of these guys have done more so far than this 5th round saftey, Coleman, that you're championing. The very least you could do, if you're going to try to be so provocative, is confirm the accuracy of your outrageous claims.
Outlaw Heroes
09-11-2004, 07:22 AM
Oops. Nearly forgot Bradie James and Tyson Walters, two other day two picks (fourth and sixth rounds, respectively, IIRC).
You're missing the point. Parcells with these same guys of the last 10 years has made a huge difference. They'll be around for a long time.
At this point churned what 70% of the roster that he "inherited" from our great scouting staff?
and replaced them with "his" guys.
This is just willful blindness on your part. As I pointed out on the very first page of this thread, Mario Edwards was found in the sixth round. You want more? Pete Hunder, this year's starting corner was found in the fifth round. Zuriel Smith, who returned kicks for us last year was found in the seventh. Torrin Tucker and Kalen Thorton, our starting RT and 3rd down pass-rush specialist, respectively, weren't even drafted (talk about steals!).
All of these guys have done more so far than this 5th round saftey, Coleman, that you're championing. The very least you could do, if you're going to try to be so provocative, is confirm the accuracy of your outrageous claims.
Thats terrible scouting and drafting. ZS cut, Edwards a good find, too bad they drafted 2 corners that draft AHEAD of him............. Walters is a backup. Wohooo 10 years , failure. I'm long that Parcells changes out head of scouting this offseason.
Dallas Cowboys 1996 Draft Recap
By Raul Villaronga
Staff Reporter: TheBoys.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2A. Kavika Pittman, DE, McNeese State
2nd Round (37 overall) (from Washington)
6-5 ¼, 263, 4.77
Former NFL scout Gil Brandt says this of the Dallas Cowboys' top selection in the draft, Kavika Pittman -- "He has good ability to rush the passer. He has very good upfield acceleration, and good jumping ability so it's hard to throw over his head. He had 14 sacks as a senior and he's was a good high-school basketball player, so he's a good athlete."
Kavika Pittman is an athlete, pure and simple. He played on the national championship basketball team for the Amateur Athletic Union, as well as being a district champion long-jumper and high-jumper in high school. This translates to speed, which puts him in the mold of one Charles Haley, only about 10 pounds heavier. He missed the second half of the 1993 season after suffering a deep thigh bruise and having calcium deposits build up. Won All-Conference honors in '94 at McNeese State, tallying 67 tackles and 14 tackles for a loss, including seven sacks. This after missing the latter half of the '93 season with a deep thigh bruise and calcium deposit buildup. He followed his 94 honors by being selected the Southland Conference Defensive Player of the Year in '95, when he had 53 tackles, 13 sacks, 11 passes broken up and seven more tackles for loss, all while playing with a hand injury during the season.
Positives: Possesses great athletic abilities. Tall, can run, has the quickness and speed to accelerate upfield, giving him great ability to pass-rush. Gets off the ball quickly and closes to the QB even quicker. With his size and speed, is a formidable target to try and throw over/around. Has great lateral pursuit, covering sideline-to-sideline. At 21, is young and not beat up from college career. Will play with injuries. His added weight and strength allowed him to have the best physical performance at a combine he has ever had.
Negatives: Still lacks some functional football strength and bulk at the point of attack. Can be overpowered at times. Gets controlled by big blockers too easily because of lack of upper-body strength. Has not faced the best competition week in and week out. Got handled a lot at the Senior Bowl and would often get wired to the blocker.
Summary: Kavika is a natural pass rusher who can run with speed and has a lot of potential. He must get stronger if he is to be an every-down player in the NFL.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2B. Randall Godfrey, LB, Georgia
2nd Round (49 overall) (from Miami)
6-2, 237, 4.65
Randall has a fantastic first 3 years at Georgia. In the strong run-oriented SEC, he averaged 110 tackles during that span, including 114 in his freshman and sophomore seasons. A hamstring injury in his Senior year hampered what was a brilliant career. In high school, he was a three-sport athlete and was the top rated prospect in the state. He doesn't have great instincts and sometimes can't shed oncoming blockers.
General: Rated No. 1 high-school prospect in the state of Georgia. Also played basketball and ran a 10.8 100 meters in track. Starting the last nine games of his freshman year while leading Bulldogs in tackles with 114 and winning Southeastern Conference Defensive Freshman of the Year honors. Started every game in '93 and had 114 tackles again and 1 interception, making him the Coaches' All-SEC pick. Played his Junior year in '94 primarily at middle linebacker and made 102 tackles, including 11 tackles for loss and two sacks as well as snaring two interceptions. Suffered a grade-two tear hamstring injury his Senior season in '95 in week 5 against Alabama and was a nonfactor for the remainder of the season, playing briefly in two other regular-season games. Ended the regular season with 35 tackles. Came back to play in the Senior Bowl but was still troubled by the hamstring.
Positives: Extremely gifted athletic abilities. Explosive quickness and speed. Has great, quick acceleration. Can explode off the corner. At times will fly to the ball. Has the speed to track plays down from the backside in pursuit. Can flatten behind the line. Has very good body control and balance. Can run with backs in coverage.
Negatives: Does not do a good job of standing in and taking on blockers. Tends to play upright and gets hung up on blocks. Too many of his tackles in '94 and '95 were made downfield. Inconsistent instincts and intensity. Slow to fill at times. Does not always play a physical game. At times will waste motion getting to the ball or take himself completely out of plays. Has gotten worse instead of better the past two years, but can be attributed to his injury.
Summary: Has great movement skills and ability, but he was a huge disappointment in '95. Now must be viewed as a boom-or-bust-type pick. Dallas is expecting the healthy and dominant Godfrey to show up for the Cowboys.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3A. Clay Shiver, C, Florida State
3rd Round (67 overall) (from Washington)
6-2 ¼, 290, 5.25
General: Shiver redshirted in 1991, started five games in '92 while splitting time. He started the past three years. Was All-Atlantic Coast Conference in '94 and '95 and made the Football Writers Association All-America team both years.
Positives: Fine leader. Tough and nasty, and doesn't mind it. Can be physical. Has initial quickness to get into position immediately. Very hard worker in the weight room and out, with a great work ethic resulting in him getting bigger. Bench-presses close to 500 pounds. Has enough mobility to block on the second level. Very alert pass protector who does a nice job of helping out. Works well in combination blocks. Makes good decisions. Understands blocking angles and position. Very accurate on the shotgun snap and the direct snap to the running back. Good use of his feet to stay in balance.
Negatives: Is not as naturally big or athletic as you would like. Will have trouble in some one-on-one situations. At times will struggle to drop his hips and to slide so he can continue to play with knee bend.
Summary: Not as big or gifted as scouts would like, but he is a very good football player who has great intangibles and work ethic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3B. Stepfret Williams, WR, Northeast Louisiana
3rd Round (94 overall) (Compensatory)
6-0, 170, 4.45
General: Redshirted in 1991. Moved into the starting lineup in '93, catching 40-929 and 10 TDs. Was the team's Offensive MVP in '94 when he caught 57-1,106-10. Caught 12-167-3 versus Mississippi State in '95 and ended the year with 66-1,056-12. Also returned 12 kickoffs for 275 yards and nine punts for 38 yards.
Positives: Superb athlete. Flexible, fluid and graceful. Tracks the ball nicely and will snatch the ball at times; good hands. Quick off the line. Can generally beat the jam with his quickness. Has speed and acceleration. Has a really good second gear that allows him to pull away from the defender. Fluid at the break point. Gets into and out of his breaks quickly. Can really adjust his body. Has some RAC (Run-After-Catch) ability, and, every time he touches the ball, he is a threat to score. Makes plays short and deep.
Negatives: Looks frail. Lacks power. Is not as physical for a man his size. Can be knocked off his routes. Needs route refinement. Is not much of a blocker.
Summary: Is tougher inside and has average speed, but his size and physical abilities make him a potential threat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3C. Mike Ulafale, DT, Brigham Young
3rd Round (95 overall) (Compensatory)
6-4, 285, 5.1
General: Transferred from San Bernardino (Calif.) Junior College. Entered Brigham Young in 1993 and redshirted after having surgery on his left shoulder. Started every game in '94 at Right Tackle and had 21 tackles, with 11 of them for a loss and six sacks. Began '95 season as a starter and then was suspended for four games for violating school's honor code. Ended year with 24 tackles and 3 ½ tackles for loss.
Positives: Looks the part. His large but quick Samoan frame gives him the tools to play on the next level. Flashes pass-rush ability. Can neutralize and shed blockers when he plays low. Has a quick first step. Can put moves together. Was impressive at the Hula Bowl.
Negatives: Is not as strong as he could be. Tends to play with a high pad level and gets overpowered when he does. Appears to disappear at times, taking plays off and running out of gas. Has had off-the-field problems. Will get called for some dumb penalties on the field. Shows questionable judgment both on and off the field.
Summary: Needs to grow up and get his life in order. He has the abilities to become a dominating DT for the Cowboys with some hard work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5A. Kenneth McDaniel, OG, Norfolk State
5th Round (157 overall) (from Philadelphia through Baltimore)
6-2 ¾, 320, 5.34
General: Fifth-year senior who has started the past three seasons. Did miss three games in 1994 after having his right knee scoped. Won All-Conference honors at Tackle in '95.
Positives: Massive, bulky and girthy. A real widebody. Will flash some pop when he bends his knees. Average speed for a man his size.
Negatives: Has a weight-gain problem. On the stiff side and does not play with good knee bend. Lacks good movement skills and change of direction at his present weight.
Summary: Needs less body fat and some technique development if he is to have a chance. May be better suited for the middle of the line at Guard than Tackle.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5B. Alan Campos, LB, Louisville
5th Round (167 overall)
6-3 ¼, 235, 4.7
General: Redshirted in 1991 and played special-teams in '92 and '93. Started past two years. Had 123 stops, 10 passes broken up, two sacks and a pick in '94 and 97 tackles, nine passes broken up and three interceptions in '95. Also ran twice from the upback position in punt formation and gained 76 yards, with a long run of 70.
Positives: Above-average athlete. Good height and speed. Works hard, will hustle and chase. Very competitive with instincts and field awareness. Good special-team player. Very active. Flies all over the field.
Negatives: Does not look the part. Very thin in the lower body. Cannot take plays on well. Much more effective when he is free to run to the ball rather than contending with a blocker.
Summary: Very active and has a great motor, but he must be in the right position in the right defense to be effective. With good speed and size, could be a natural fit for the Dallas LB scheme.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Wendell Davis, DB, Oklahoma
6th Round (207 overall)
5-10 ¼, 185, 4.52
General: Transferred from Coffeyville (Kan.) Community College. Redshirted in 1993. Played in 11 games in '94. Was the team's third cornerback in '95, when he started versus Nebraska in the season finale. Ended the year with 19 tackles and five passes broken up.
Positives: Pretty strong and physical. Can jam the receiver. Has some speed and quickness.
Negatives: Lacks experience and exposure. Needs to develop a better feel for pass coverage and coverage cushion. Did not run as well as he was supposed to at the combine.
Summary: Limited game experience has curtailed his development, but he has some tools to work with. With the right teacher and mentor, could do quite well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. Ryan Wood, FB, Arizona State
7th Round (243 overall)
Outlaw Heroes
09-11-2004, 07:39 AM
Thats terrible scouting and drafting.
Read your intial statement. You said "not one find". I pointed out around six (and you responded--weakly, I might add--to three).
Time for you to go dream up another trade that is "sure to happen". At least those threads are worth a good laugh, unlike this one, which is both ridiculous and annoying.
2004 1 Vince Wilfork DT 45 Man
1 Ben Watson TE 45 Man
2003 1 Ty Warren DT Starter
2002 1 Dan Graham TE 45
2001 1 Richard Seymour DT All Pro
1996 1 Terry Glenn WR All Pro
1995 1 Ty Law DB All Pro
2 Marquise Hill DE 53
2 Eugene Wilson DB Starter
2 Bethel Johnson WR 45
2 Deion Branch WR Starter
2 Matt Light T Starter
2000 2 Adrian Klemm T Bust
2 Lawyer Milloy DB All Pro
2 Ted Johnson LB Starter
3 Guss Scott DB IR
3 Brock Williams DB Bust
3 J.R. Redmond RB Bust
3 Tedy Bruschi LB 53
3 Curtis Martin RB All Pro
3 Jimmy Hitchcock DB JANP
4 Dexter Reid DB 45 Man
4 Cedric Cobbs RB IR
4 Dan Klecko DT 45
4 Asante Samuel DB 45
4 Rohan Davey QB 53
4 Jarvis Green DE 53
4 Kenyatta Jones T Bust
4 Jabari Holloway TE Bust
4 Greg Robinson-RandallT Bust
4 Heath Irwin G Bust
4 Chris Sullivan DT JANP
4 Kantroy Barber RB Bust
4 Dave Wohlabaugh C Starter
5 P.K. Sam WR 53
5 Dan Koppen C Starter 5 Hakim Akbar DB Bust
5 Dave Stachelski TE Bust
5 Jeff Marriott DT Bust
5 John Elmore G Bust
5 Christian Peter DT Bust
6 Kliff Kingsbury QB Bust
6 Arther Love TE Bust
6 Leonard Myers DB JANP
6 Antwan Harris DB janp
6 Tom Brady QB All Pro
6 David Nugent DT janp
6 Chris Griffin TE Bust
6 Marrio Grier RB Bust
6 Devin Wyman DE Bust
6 Dino Philyaw RB Bust
7 Christian Morton DB ?
7 Spencer Nead TE Bust
7 Tully Banta-Cain DE 53 7 Ethan Kelley DT Bust
7 Antwoine Womack RB Bust
7 David Givens WR Starter
7 Owen Pochman K Bust
7 T.J. Turner LB Bust
7 Casey Tisdale LB Bust
7 Patrick Pass RB 53 7 Lovett Purnell TE Bust
7 J.R. Conrad T Bust
7 Carlos Yancy DB Bust
MichaelWinicki
09-11-2004, 07:56 AM
Interesting reading Nors...
This is just willful blindness on your part. As I pointed out on the very first page of this thread, Mario Edwards was found in the sixth round. You want more? Pete Hunder, this year's starting corner was found in the fifth round. Zuriel Smith, who returned kicks for us last year was found in the seventh. Torrin Tucker and Kalen Thorton, our starting RT and 3rd down pass-rush specialist, respectively, weren't even drafted (talk about steals!).
All of these guys have done more so far than this 5th round saftey, Coleman, that you're championing. The very least you could do, if you're going to try to be so provocative, is confirm the accuracy of your outrageous claims.
Edwards - good day 2 pick, but we wasted two earlier picks that year at CB...
Hunter - OK - TBD
ZS - Out of the NFL
Bradie - ok - backup today
Walters - career backup type
free agent finds - all teams have to put a few on roster. Want draft results.
Not good when your draft picks get consistently beat out by undrafted FA's -lol Other teams are scoring players.
Interesting reading Nors...
18/21 Day 1 picks serious players. Only 3 busts
18/21 Day 1 picks serious players. Only 3 busts
So you like the Pats. Buy a jersey.
So you like the Pats. Buy a jersey.
But their Player Personnel won NFL executive of the year award. Their drafting is nothing short of sensational. In 2000 they inherited a mess.
Player personell and drafting turned it around.
Parcells has his links, contacts and has brought his players in free agency. To defend our drafting past 10 years is flawed.......... We need to churn out head of Scouting department.......... This is a production business.
Hostile
09-11-2004, 08:16 AM
But their Player Personnel won NFL executive of the year award. Their drafting is nothing short of sensational. In 2000 they inherited a mess.
Player personell and drafting turned it around.
Parcells has his links, contacts and has brought his players in free agency. To defend our drafting past 10 years is flawed.......... We need to churn out head of Scouting department.......... This is a production business.
So talk your buddy Pioli into working for his Father-in-law.
You've been proven wrong already. The horse is dead you can quit with the whip.
But their Player Personnel won NFL executive of the year award. Their drafting is nothing short of sensational. In 2000 they inherited a mess.
Player personell and drafting turned it around.
Parcells has his links, contacts and has brought his players in free agency. To defend our drafting past 10 years is flawed.......... We need to churn out head of Scouting department.......... This is a production business.
Are you mixing meds? :D
chargrove
09-11-2004, 10:02 AM
Larry Lacewell's problem is one of distraction. He's worried that Switzer is home boinking his wife...AGAIN. :eek:
Kangaroo
09-11-2004, 10:58 AM
The year we drafted QC the scouts wanted the LB Bell that Pit drafted but JJ decided to over rule them and draft QC and Dixon even though the scouts wanted Bell.
I am sure that was not the 1st time JJ did that
SO more of the blame goes on JJ not the scouts the scouts did their job right the manger blew it rolling the dice on the wrong player
Rack Bauer
09-11-2004, 11:58 AM
I don't think that Sanders guy is even playing for the Colts. I think he even got a roster excemption because he held out and could not pass a physical.
How does that have anything to do with what I would of done back in April?
Who would you have taken besides Julius. I think all the other good rbs were taken by then. We actually got lucky to get him there.
I already posted who I would of taken besides Julius. And we were NOT lucky to get him where we did. Most draft "Experts" had him going in the third round. He would of been available at our next second rounder.
You've been proven wrong already. The horse is dead you can quit with the whip
I speak from experience whey I say that Nors will NEVER admit when he's wrong... EVER. That goes back to me owning him time and time and time and time again over on the SSD boards. That's the reason I dislike him so much. I have no problem with guys that go on like him as long as they're man enough to admit when they are wrong. You guys are just seeing the tip of the iceberg here.
Waffle
09-11-2004, 12:02 PM
2004 1 Vince Wilfork DT 45 Man
1 Ben Watson TE 45 Man
2003 1 Ty Warren DT Starter
2002 1 Dan Graham TE 45
2001 1 Richard Seymour DT All Pro
1996 1 Terry Glenn WR All Pro
1995 1 Ty Law DB All Pro
2 Marquise Hill DE 53
2 Eugene Wilson DB Starter
2 Bethel Johnson WR 45
2 Deion Branch WR Starter
2 Matt Light T Starter
2000 2 Adrian Klemm T Bust
2 Lawyer Milloy DB All Pro
2 Ted Johnson LB Starter
3 Guss Scott DB IR
3 Brock Williams DB Bust
3 J.R. Redmond RB Bust
3 Tedy Bruschi LB 53
3 Curtis Martin RB All Pro
3 Jimmy Hitchcock DB JANP
4 Dexter Reid DB 45 Man
4 Cedric Cobbs RB IR
4 Dan Klecko DT 45
4 Asante Samuel DB 45
4 Rohan Davey QB 53
4 Jarvis Green DE 53
4 Kenyatta Jones T Bust
4 Jabari Holloway TE Bust
4 Greg Robinson-RandallT Bust
4 Heath Irwin G Bust
4 Chris Sullivan DT JANP
4 Kantroy Barber RB Bust
4 Dave Wohlabaugh C Starter
5 P.K. Sam WR 53
5 Dan Koppen C Starter 5 Hakim Akbar DB Bust
5 Dave Stachelski TE Bust
5 Jeff Marriott DT Bust
5 John Elmore G Bust
5 Christian Peter DT Bust
6 Kliff Kingsbury QB Bust
6 Arther Love TE Bust
6 Leonard Myers DB JANP
6 Antwan Harris DB janp
6 Tom Brady QB All Pro
6 David Nugent DT janp
6 Chris Griffin TE Bust
6 Marrio Grier RB Bust
6 Devin Wyman DE Bust
6 Dino Philyaw RB Bust
7 Christian Morton DB ?
7 Spencer Nead TE Bust
7 Tully Banta-Cain DE 53 7 Ethan Kelley DT Bust
7 Antwoine Womack RB Bust
7 David Givens WR Starter
7 Owen Pochman K Bust
7 T.J. Turner LB Bust
7 Casey Tisdale LB Bust
7 Patrick Pass RB 53 7 Lovett Purnell TE Bust
7 J.R. Conrad T Bust
7 Carlos Yancy DB Bust
Thanks for taking the time to put up something to compare to, Nors.
This is your proof that the last 10 Years of Dallas Drafts have been horrible, right? I can see that the Pats have had some very positive results from their drafts, especially in Day 1. But...
...why did you omit first round "BUSTS like Chris Canty from 1997 and the duo of Robert Edwards and TeBuckey Jones from 1998, the latter who has all of SIX interceptions for his career and is now w/ the Saints? We all know what happened to Edwards in Hawaii, but let's face the real facts...they are all Busts, and first round ones according to your own definition. And where is that 2nd round BUST TE Rod Rutledge from 1998 on your list?? He's not even in the league anymore. Gotta love those brilliant Patriot scouts!! Yeah, Dallas may have had some bad Day 2 drafts, but a few of these Day 1 drafts by the Pats were expensive failures.
I also find it a little amusing that your remarks about each draft pick are not consistent. Instead of calling some current Patriots players what they really are, either "JANP" or "??????" , you call them "53". But All-Pro Cowboy players like Flozell Adams get "*" by their name? He may have underachieved his first few years in the draft, but he's been a starter since he was drafted and now he's actually getting coached. Your inconsistencies are subtle...however it's obvious how you are biased in order to try and appear correct.
Furthermore, you like to put an astrisk next to Newman and R. Williams by calling those selections "lottery," basically saying it took no brains to make those picks. How about Terry Glenn (6th overall) and Richard Seymour (7th overall) ?? Wouldn't LOTTERY would be a consistant way to describe him according to your own evaluation methods? I bet Campo could have even gotten those picks right.
And look at all those Day 2 Busts the Patriots have, even by your own bias standards!!! Man, thanks for showing your stripes. Again, you concede nothing in an argument even when faced with facts. I wouldn't be giving you any grief (and proof) if you had just admitted that saying "10 YEARS" of Cowboy draft failure is an exaggeration. I already conceded that our picks from 1995-99 were $hit for the most part and we had an 8-8 and three 5-11s as a result.
I don't know what your agenda is, but it's obvious you like to be the center of attention on this board by making overblown assumptions not based in reality.
blindzebra
09-11-2004, 12:13 PM
Thanks for taking the time to put up something to compare to, Nors.
This is your proof that the last 10 Years of Dallas Drafts have been horrible, right? I can see that the Pats have had some very positive results from their drafts, especially in Day 1. But...
...why did you omit first round "BUSTS like Chris Canty from 1997 and the duo of Robert Edwards and TeBuckey Jones from 1998, the latter who has all of SIX interceptions for his career and is now w/ the Saints? We all know what happened to Edwards in Hawaii, but let's face the real facts...they are all Busts, and first round ones according to your own definition. And where is that 2nd round BUST TE Rod Rutledge from 1998 on your list?? He's not even in the league anymore. Gotta love those brilliant Patriot scouts!! Yeah, Dallas may have had some bad Day 2 drafts, but a few of these Day 1 drafts by the Pats were expensive failures.
I also find it a little amusing that your remarks about each draft pick are not consistent. Instead of calling some current Patriots players what they really are, either "JANP" or "??????" , you call them "53". But All-Pro Cowboy players like Flozell Adams get "*" by their name? He may have underachieved his first few years in the draft, but he's been a starter since he was drafted and now he's actually getting coached. Your inconsistencies are subtle...however it's obvious how you are biased in order to try and appear correct.
Furthermore, you like to put an astrisk next to Newman and R. Williams by calling those selections "lottery," basically saying it took no brains to make those picks. How about Terry Glenn (6th overall) and Richard Seymour (7th overall) ?? Wouldn't LOTTERY would be a consistant way to describe him according to your own evaluation methods? I bet Campo could have even gotten those picks right.
And look at all those Day 2 Busts the Patriots have, even by your own bias standards!!! Man, thanks for showing your stripes. Again, you concede nothing in an argument even when faced with facts. I wouldn't be giving you any grief (and proof) if you had just admitted that saying "10 YEARS" of Cowboy draft failure is an exaggeration. I already conceded that our picks from 1995-99 were $hit for the most part and we had an 8-8 and three 5-11s as a result.
I don't know what your agenda is, but it's obvious you like to be the center of attention on this board by making overblown assumptions not based in reality.
Great post.
He's building a case for, "I told you we should have traded a pick for Law."
He's as transparent as a sheet of glass. If it fits his argument it is included and highlighted; if it does not it gets omitted or "altered".
iceberg
09-11-2004, 12:23 PM
Guess you are right. I am wrong. You might want to go smack forum if you can't discuss football maturely!
no, i was out of line on that one. apologies to you.
but you still never said why you only look at our drafts and call them busts w/o even comparing them to the rest of the NFL's drafts. so by what measure other than your own fandom (and if that's it, that's fine, just a little biased to me) do you rate them as a bust? you've got to compare it to something and that i've missed so far.
no, i was out of line on that one. apologies to you.
but you still never said why you only look at our drafts and call them busts w/o even comparing them to the rest of the NFL's drafts. so by what measure other than your own fandom (and if that's it, that's fine, just a little biased to me) do you rate them as a bust? you've got to compare it to something and that i've missed so far.
No problem, this opinion based. Lets move on as Dallas fans = game tomorrow!
SuspectCorner
09-12-2004, 04:44 AM
i liked the al johnson pick but can he be rated as a "good pick" without throwing one regular season block? you know you're in trouble when a draftee gets a passing grade without having played one down in their pro career.
jay cee
09-12-2004, 07:52 AM
By the way, Nors, you sure are fired up tonight. Eat a lot of sugar this afternoon or what?
You should direct that question to some of the other posters. Nors just made a normal post with an opinion, and some of these guys went ballistic. What is the deal with this dump on Nors crap?
Predicts use of 3-4 defense: Attack that opinion.
Predicts move for Ty Law: Attack that opinion.
Now he says the scouts are poor: Attack that opinion also.
I don't understand the animosity.
blindzebra
09-12-2004, 11:19 AM
You should direct that question to some of the other posters. Nors just made a normal post with an opinion, and some of these guys went ballistic. What is the deal with this dump on Nors crap?
Predicts use of 3-4 defense: Attack that opinion.
Predicts move for Ty Law: Attack that opinion.
Now he says the scouts are poor: Attack that opinion also.
I don't understand the animosity.
Nors carpet bombed the forum with his "prediction" of the 3-4. Nobody attacked that we'd use it in situations, just not full time. Nors kept going and going arguing that we'd use it, well we ALL knew we'd use it.
Then the Law thing started and he did the same thing. Nors littered the forum with his "prediction".
When it did not happen, he had a couple of our DBs are terrible threads. Then he polled us with, "Would you trade our lower first for Law." When the forum emphatically said no to that question, along came this thread.
Nors was laying the ground work to say, " See we should have traded for Law," it's obvious.
Nors carpet bombed the forum with his "prediction" of the 3-4. Nobody attacked that we'd use it in situations, just not full time. Nors kept going and going arguing that we'd use it, well we ALL knew we'd use it.
Then the Law thing started and he did the same thing. Nors littered the forum with his "prediction".
When it did not happen, he had a couple of our DBs are terrible threads. Then he polled us with, "Would you trade our lower first for Law." When the forum emphatically said no to that question, along came this thread.
Nors was laying the ground work to say, " See we should have traded for Law," it's obvious.
Then stop posting in the threads. You read way too much into things and sure love posting in them.
You should direct that question to some of the other posters. Nors just made a normal post with an opinion, and some of these guys went ballistic. What is the deal with this dump on Nors crap?
Predicts use of 3-4 defense: Attack that opinion.
Predicts move for Ty Law: Attack that opinion.
Now he says the scouts are poor: Attack that opinion also.
I don't understand the animosity.
Now lets attack Minny today!
There's an element that feels a need to attack any opinion I post. I can't imagine believing our scouting past 10 years has been anything but pizz poor past decade. But I agree post a counter opinion on topic.
Defensive rookie of the years starts gaining momentum week 1!!!!!!!!!!!
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