6-1: Jason Whitlock on M Vick (AOL.com column)

[dwmyers]

This is one of the more original analyses of the M Vick situation I've read. It was powerful enough Jason was on talk radio by mid-day today in Atlanta and it left most people shaking their heads in agreement.

http://sports.aol.com/whitlock/nfl/_a/athletes-dog-fighting-fascination-ties/20070531122609990001


The central theme is in the following quote from the article:

What I find amazing is that no one appears to be willing to tie NFL/NBA players’ apparent love of pit bulls, Rottweilers and dogfighting to the players’ apparent love of hip-hop/gangster/prison culture.

The Sports Illustrated piece, which can be found online here -- http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20007/football/nfl/05/29/vick0604/index.html -- has all the ingredients to make the connection.

Vick is pictured looking very Snoop Dogg-esque, cornrows and goateed. The article points out that rappers such as DMX and New Jersey Nets minority owner Jay-Z have made videos celebrating dog fighting. A spokesman for the Humane Society of the United States is quoted saying “there exists a dog-fighting subculture in the NFL and NBA.” And at one point in the article, a big deal is made about a former NFL running back’s prized and infamous pit bull champion, “Nino.”

Again, in the hip-hop world, Nino Brown is Tony Montana’s less-celebrated, but-far-more-influential little brother. In the 1991 hip-hop classic New Jack City, Nino, the revered leader of the crack-cocaine dealing Cash Money Brothers, among other things made owning ferocious Rottweilers cool.

And all I can 'say' to Mr Whitlock is:

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:


David.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

just because you heard something that you agreed with on the radio does not mean that it 'left most people shaking their heads in agreement.' im mean first off shaking of the head normally indicates disagreement.

Anyway he is basically saying that dogfighting is a black thing and the nthrows out stereotypes. Thats opening a whole can of worms that I want no part of but you guys have fun.

[Bob Sacamano]

just because you heard something that you agreed with on the radio does not mean that it 'left most people shaking their heads in agreement.' im mean first off shaking of the head normally indicates disagreement.

Anyway he is basically saying that dogfighting is a black thing and the nthrows out stereotypes. Thats opening a whole can of worms that I want no part of but you guys have fun.

he's being stereotypical limiting it to blacks, but any gang culture that condones and preaches violence is apt to be involved in a violent sport such as dog-fighting

[dwmyers]

Anyway he is basically saying that dogfighting is a black thing and then throws out stereotypes..


<sarcasm>I'm just *so* sure that Jason Whitlock:

http://i9.tinypic.com/61vqssm.jpg

Is promoting a point of view in which only blacks fight dogs. </sarcasm>

David.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

<sarcasm>I'm just *so* sure that Jason Whitlock:

http://i9.tinypic.com/61vqssm.jpg

Is promoting a point of view in which only blacks fight dogs. </sarcasm>

David.

I guess that when he compared Vick to Snoop, brought up DMX, Jay-Z and hip-hop culture in general that he was trying to be universal in his outlook.

[Maikeru-sama]

<sarcasm>I'm just *so* sure that Jason Whitlock:

http://i9.tinypic.com/61vqssm.jpg

Is promoting a point of view in which only blacks fight dogs. </sarcasm>

David.

You obviously displayed a picture of Jason Whitlock to make an argument that since he is black, he couldn't possibly be anti-black or throw out stereotypical comments towards members of his own community.

You do know there is a small faction of Blacks in the public eye who constantly defame, sterotype and villify members of their own community.

Guys like Armstrong Williams, Ward Connerly, Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson and Jason Whitlock are a few names that come to mind.

- Mike G.

[dwmyers]

I guess that when he compared Vick to Snoop, brought up DMX, Jay-Z and hip-hop culture in general that he was trying to be universal in his outlook.

I'm going to post the whole article and then tell me again how this is a slam on blacks in general.


Athletes' Dog-Fighting Fascination Ties to Hip-Hop
Vick Should Focus On Grasping Franchise-Quarterback Role

By JASON WHITLOCK

AOL
Sports Commentary

I spent Wednesday evening with Doug Williams and Warren Moon. We were promoting Bill Rhoden’s latest book, “Third and a Mile,” an expose on the history of African-American quarterbacks.

I wish Michael Vick could’ve been there.

Maybe, if Vick spent time learning Williams’ and Moon’s history, the Atlanta quarterback would model himself after Doug Williams, the original “franchise quarterback,” rather than Nino Brown, the fictional New Jack Hustler.

Much has been written, said and speculated about Vick’s involvement in the illegal sport of dog fighting during the past two weeks. ESPN found an informant who claims that Vick is a “heavyweight” in the blood sport. Sports Illustrated published a detailed and revealing account of the circumstantial evidence against Vick, and the people who have been diligently trying to expose a connection between the sport and NBA/NFL players.

What I find amazing is that no one appears to be willing to tie NFL/NBA players’ apparent love of pit bulls, Rottweilers and dogfighting to the players’ apparent love of hip-hop/gangster/prison culture.

The Sports Illustrated piece, which can be found online here -- http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20007/football/nfl/05/29/vick0604/index.html -- has all the ingredients to make the connection.

Vick is pictured looking very Snoop Dogg-esque, cornrows and goateed. The article points out that rappers such as DMX and New Jersey Nets minority owner Jay-Z have made videos celebrating dog fighting. A spokesman for the Humane Society of the United States is quoted saying “there exists a dog-fighting subculture in the NFL and NBA.” And at one point in the article, a big deal is made about a former NFL running back’s prized and infamous pit bull champion, “Nino.”

Again, in the hip-hop world, Nino Brown is Tony Montana’s less-celebrated, but-far-more-influential little brother. In the 1991 hip-hop classic New Jack City, Nino, the revered leader of the crack-cocaine dealing Cash Money Brothers, among other things made owning ferocious Rottweilers cool.

My point is dog fighting, training, breeding and selling killer dogs are accepted and exalted hobbies in hip-hop/gangster/prison culture.

There are myths floating around that Vick might have picked up this hobby because he’s a good-old country boy and dog fighting traces its roots to the south and slavery. This is so much bull(manure) as it relates to Vick that it really shouldn’t be commented on. You can find dog fighting in every major city that has multiple inner-city drug kingpins, and Vick is nobody’s good-old country boy. I once spent a week in Vick’s (and Allen Iverson’s) hometown of Newport News, Va., and it has far more in common with Chicago than Mayberry.

Vick’s alleged affinity for Rottweilers and pit bulls is because hip-hop made it cool. Period.

The NFL and NBA climbed in bed with hip-hop because they thought the culture and its music could make the leagues more popular. Well, as the leagues are finding out, there’s a lot more that goes along with hip-hop than good dance music. Biggie and ‘Pac really did die in a blaze of gunshots. Some rappers do sell drugs, have strong ties to gangs, smoke weed around the clock and, like most music stars, behave poorly when binging on alcohol and cocaine.

The leagues need to rethink their alliances with hip-hop, and they need to educate their players about what’s appropriate for sports culture, the culture that is providing many of them lifetime financial security.

If there is merit to the dog-fighting allegations against Vick, many people are going to clamor for NFL commissioner Roger Goodell to give Vick the Pacman treatment, a year’s suspension.

Punishment is fine. But Vick (and Pacman) need help in the form of education. The NFLPA should work with Goodell and the owners in formulating some sort of educational program for its talented, suspended athletes. Vick is young, gifted and marketable. The league can’t just throw him away.

If he’s suspended, Vick shouldn’t be allowed to re-enter the league without completing some kind of educational curriculum that teaches him about the responsibility of being an NFL quarterback, the face of a franchise, an ambassador for a major city.

I’d get Vick copies of Rhoden’s books, “Forty Million Dollar Slaves” and “Third and a Mile,” and I’d build a network of counselors/mentors consisting of Williams, Moon, James Harris, Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, etc., to work with Vick on developing the necessary life skills to make it as a high-profile athlete. I’d mix in a few professional counselors.

Vick doesn’t understand his legacy. Doug Williams created the entire concept of a “franchise quarterback.” Before Williams hit the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, there were great, Hall of Fame quarterbacks, but there weren’t really “franchise quarterbacks.”

Before Williams, you built franchises around strong running games, great defenses and you found a terrific quarterback to manage the game. Doug Williams was the only thing the Tampa Bay Buccaneers had. He was a one-man army who carried the Bucs to the playoffs three times. When he took his gun to the USFL in a contract dispute, the Buccaneers franchise fell completely apart. It took more than a decade for Tampa to recover.

Everyone in the league took notice, and when John Elway entered the league -- the only QB with as much physical skill as Williams -- the Denver Broncos built their entire franchise around Elway. Rather than lose Elway, the Broncos hired and fired coaches. It’s now common place for NFL teams to build their franchises around a QB.

Ah, I’m off on a tangent. My point is Doug Williams left the game better than he found it for all quarterbacks but especially black quarterbacks. It’s shameful that Vick doesn’t have enough self-awareness and discipline to respect the sacrifices of guys such as Williams.

Now also, there is an article on Whitlock in the Wikipedia, and there is this interesting blurb:

On April 11th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_11), 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007), Jason wrote a column in the Kansas City Star (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_Star), in which he weighed in on the Don Imus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Imus)/Rutgers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutgers) Women's Basketball controversy. He expressed his belief that while Imus's comments were deplorable, the real focus for the black community should be to minimize the negative impact of pop culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_culture) elements such as gangsta rap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangsta_rap).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Whitlock

And it's not as if Jason Whitlock hasn't criticized Michael Vick before:

A coach killer needs three ingredients: 1. a fat contract; 2. more potential than work ethic; 3. a passionate group of enablers willing to rationalize any and every shortcoming.

Vick has all that and more. He’s a black quarterback playing in a predominantly black city filled with unsophisticated football fans who view any criticism of Vick as racism. Vick will never reach his potential because Jim Mora Jr. is handcuffed by racial politics, and he’s forced to pamper Vick.


http://sports.aol.com/whitlock/nfl/_a/vick-standing-pat-with-enablers-at-his/20061122124909990001

The Wikipedia also mentions that Jason Whitlock was an offensive lineman in high school and played with a fellow named Jeff George (another extraordinarily talented but underachieving player).


What I see in this is the following. There are people who view *any* criticism of Vick as racism. I think Whitlock is 100% on the ball with that. Atlanta radio is filled with people making the worst kinds of excuses for Vick's behavior. People that say otherwise are accused of being bigots (if they're white) or Uncle Toms if they're black. They say "it's just a dog", they compare fighting beta fishes with dog fighting, they say.. well, they say just about anything but the truth, which is that Michael Vick is a grown man and responsible for his actions.

More so, and these are Jason Whitlock's words paraphrased, you don't get paid the big bucks Michael does and not end up the face of the franchise and the city. He's not living up to that responsibility, and Whitlock offered a couple guys (Moon, Williams) who did.

[dwmyers]

You do know there is a small faction of Blacks in the public eye who constantly defame, sterotype and villify members of their own community.

You know, there are whites who do the same thing to their race too. The words for that kind of individual is a critic. They offer criticism. They're often not liked.

Recall Socrates anyone? What happened to him?

What I don't understand is the need to defend pointlessly elements of a culture that glorify the unjustifiable. I have no need, from my German heritage and background, to defend Neo Nazis. That's not a part of "white culture" that I have any compulsion to defend.

For that matter, having grown up in the South, I don't feel a need to defend NASCAR or pick 'em up trucks or deer hunting. I don't see criticisms of those activities as criticisms of my race.

So let's fall back to the half geekish, Southern white of Pennsylvania Dutch descent kind of person that I am. I know utterly nothing about hip-hop other than when one of these artists wins a music award. It isn't my stuff. But for that matter, I don't listen to much "white music" either. I'm by all measures a pop music illiterate, who only picks up on a song once every few years.

Last year or two I picked up on who Sheryl Crow was and songs I half heard on the radio and said, "Wow, she's good." That's my personal time warp.

So when a guy like Jason Whitlock comes along and says the things he does, that's a window into a world I don't know. He offers an explanation for behavior that otherwise seems pointless to me.

Face it, Michael Vick is immensely gifted, handsome, and rich. I suspect that most of the "blow back" from criticism of Michael is this belief that the "white man" doesn't like rich handsome young black men and that the "white man" would do anything to put Michael Vick down.

But the excuses we have to endure to allow this handsome rich man to engage in dubious acts (yes, let the lawyers decide how nasty they were) also wear thin. You can point the race finger, but ultimately, you make hypocrites of yourselves and you insult real heroes -- Magic Johnson, Arthur Ashe, Muhammed Ali, Hakeem Olajuwan, Bill Russell, Henry Aaron, Jim Brown -- I could go on and on here -- who carried themselves a little better and are true heroes to all people.

But .. this may be one of these issues that split down racial lines, like the OJ trial. And again, in that case, OJ was gifted, handsome, young and rich.

David.

[ZeroClub]

Chad Brown, long-time NFL linebacker, keeps, breeds and sells exotic snakes, monitor lizards, and gila monsters. Here's the website (http://www.proexotics.com/).

Brown is from a multi-cultural background. I guess some will need to come up with a pseudo-political-sociological theory explaining how Brown's ethnicity/culture is related to his interest in reptiles. (although I'm thinking he probably just likes snakes)

---------

I believe it was Doug Donley (although it may have been Golden Richards) who kept some intimidating Doberman Pinschers during his playing days as a Dallas Cowboy. Did his music make him do it?

[burmafrd]

The typical response to criticism from those with no logical response is to label whoever dropped the load on them as RACISTS. or those that hate their own race. The minute someone says something like that you know who the TRUE racist is. There is NOTHING justifiable or defendable about gang life, or songs that glorify violence, expecially against women. NO EXCUSE. NO JUSTIFICATION. Its perfectly logical that those that condone gang violence, violence against women, should condone things like dog fighting. Makes total sense. Its all degradation of values and morals.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If I write that article then I would be labeled a racist but because this guy happens to be black there is no race involved?

Sorry but he threw out so many racial stereotypes from corn rows to Nino Brown that I had a hard time seeing that. So he is black and is targeting a subset of the black community. Why is it that I think that if I were to criticize the Rainbow organization that i would be labeled a racist?

Sorry but I just dont buy the Nino Brown made Mike Vick own fighting dogs argument or that if one puts his hair into cornrows that you are more likely to do the same.

Maybe just maybe some people actually enjoy dogfights and that is why they do it.

Dog fighting was around for centuries before Run DMC and will probably have its fans for years to come.

[dwmyers]

Sorry but he threw out so many racial stereotypes from corn rows to Nino Brown that I had a hard time seeing that.


Whitfield never once mentioned corn rows. That's something you've invented, all on your own.

Sorry but I just dont buy the Nino Brown made Mike Vick own fighting dogs argument or that if one puts his hair into cornrows that you are more likely to do the same.

And of course he said none of that either. The real issue here, Fuzzy, is you're putting words in Whitfield's mouth and saying he's wrong. But the only wrong I see here is that you're making it up as you go along.

You're not willing to address what Whitfield is really saying. And it's troubling, because Whitfield's claims are straightforwarrd enough.

1) He claims there is an element of popular culture that glorifies violence, popularizes violent dog breeds, and this element includes positive references to dog fighting. He gives examples of the same.

2) He claims that Michael V is influenced by that element of popular culture.

You know, sometimes these kinds of cultural claims are true.

Rock music, 1960s-1970s. People accused it of glorifying drug use. There was an element of popular culture that made it seem desirable and sexy, even.

And I guess if I point out that the Beatles and Elton John, for that matter, sang a song named Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds that glorified drug use, and pointed out that people were influenced by that (I can't name any offhand, so I'll choose Monty Python's Flying Circus.. yeah..), that of course I'm an anti British bigot, that I don't like Bass Ale and must think that all Britishers are little nerds with weird taste in glasses.

Hell, it makes as much sense as your accusations against Whitlock.

David.

[Maikeru-sama]

You know, there are whites who do the same thing to their race too. The words for that kind of individual is a critic. They offer criticism. They're often not liked.

Recall Socrates anyone? What happened to him?

What I don't understand is the need to defend pointlessly elements of a culture that glorify the unjustifiable. I have no need, from my German heritage and background, to defend Neo Nazis. That's not a part of "white culture" that I have any compulsion to defend.

For that matter, having grown up in the South, I don't feel a need to defend NASCAR or pick 'em up trucks or deer hunting. I don't see criticisms of those activities as criticisms of my race.

So let's fall back to the half geekish, Southern white of Pennsylvania Dutch descent kind of person that I am. I know utterly nothing about hip-hop other than when one of these artists wins a music award. It isn't my stuff. But for that matter, I don't listen to much "white music" either. I'm by all measures a pop music illiterate, who only picks up on a song once every few years.

Last year or two I picked up on who Sheryl Crow was and songs I half heard on the radio and said, "Wow, she's good." That's my personal time warp.

So when a guy like Jason Whitlock comes along and says the things he does, that's a window into a world I don't know. He offers an explanation for behavior that otherwise seems pointless to me.

Face it, Michael Vick is immensely gifted, handsome, and rich. I suspect that most of the "blow back" from criticism of Michael is this belief that the "white man" doesn't like rich handsome young black men and that the "white man" would do anything to put Michael Vick down.

But the excuses we have to endure to allow this handsome rich man to engage in dubious acts (yes, let the lawyers decide how nasty they were) also wear thin. You can point the race finger, but ultimately, you make hypocrites of yourselves and you insult real heroes -- Magic Johnson, Arthur Ashe, Muhammed Ali, Hakeem Olajuwan, Bill Russell, Henry Aaron, Jim Brown -- I could go on and on here -- who carried themselves a little better and are true heroes to all people.

But .. this may be one of these issues that split down racial lines, like the OJ trial. And again, in that case, OJ was gifted, handsome, young and rich.

David.


Jason Whitlock writes alot of controversial and thought provoking articles. Like other prominent members of our community, he seems to mean well when he sounds off on various firebrand issues, but in my opinion, alot of the editorials I read of his, seems to be filled with alot of negative and stereotypcial jargon and done in extremely poor taste. Of which, if I didn't know any better, alot of the times when I am reading some of his articles, I find myself thinking is this a Sports Column or something from a website of those that are intolerant and hold extremely negative views of members of my community.

He wrote an article about Vince Young about a year ago, in my opinion, was negative, stereotypical and pretty much bordered on character assasination. He ripped Vince Young for putting people he grew up with and trusted in positions of influence, such as being his agent. He ridiculed Vince Young for having the audacity to bring his friends, which some like to call it an "entourage" to some of the various functions he participated in and last but not least, for the way that he dresses and committing the most heinous of crimes, wearing a gold chain.

And for the record, I never stated that Jason Whitlock was "Anti-Black", I simply provided an opinion to your insinuation that he couldn't possibly be anti-black because he is black.

To end, I think the key phrase in your post is "that's a window into a world I don't know".

Im from that world. I am from Oak Cliff, a poor section in Dallas that unfortunately helped lead the way in Dallas being the one of the most crime ridden cities in America. I grew up on all kinds of music, but mainly Rap, R&B and Soul. I just typically find it somewhat ignorant and irresponsible for people to suggest that "Gansta Rap" is the reason for all the woes of those that live in places where Michael Vick and maybe to a lesser extent, where I am from. To be honest, the only place I have ever seen a dog fight is on TV, that is not to say that it doesn't go on where I am from, I am just saying I never saw it.

Furthermore, I know you were just listing some positive individuals off of the top of your head, but it should be noted that Jim Brown has certainly had his fair share of run-ins with the law, even though, in my opinion, he has done alot of good in his life.

- Mike G.

[burmafrd]

gangsta rap is not the biggest reason- but are you claiming it has no effect at all on young peoples attitudes and behavior?

[Big Dakota]

The typical response to criticism from those with no logical response is to label whoever dropped the load on them as RACISTS. or those that hate their own race. The minute someone says something like that you know who the TRUE racist is. There is NOTHING justifiable or defendable about gang life, or songs that glorify violence, expecially against women. NO EXCUSE. NO JUSTIFICATION. Its perfectly logical that those that condone gang violence, violence against women, should condone things like dog fighting. Makes total sense. Its all degradation of values and morals.


Bravo.

[Maikeru-sama]

I am almost positive that people in communities where Vick and myself are from were struggling with violence, drugs and all manner of social ills before Gangsta Rap ever hit the scene, of which, the aforementioned genre is only about 2-3 decades old.

I don't think Gangsta Rap is any more negative than some other genres and alternative forms of entertainment. I personally think violent movies, video games and negative portrayals of members of those communities do alot more harm than Gangsta Rap ever does. I am of the opinion that actual gratuitous violence and extremely graphic material that can be consumed by the human eye is alot more powerful and leaves a much more stronger impression on the mind.

From the perspective of a guy that use to live in these communities and still has family members located in them, the major problem in alot of the communities being discussed here is that education is not stressed enough in the household and alot of parents don't expect their kids to do somewhat better than they themselves did.

That really is the big and dirty secret, but Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

- Mike G.

[iceberg]

I am almost positive that people in communities where Vick and myself are from were struggling with violence, drugs and all manner of social ills before Gangsta Rap ever hit the scene, of which, the aforementioned genre is only about 2-3 decades old.

I don't think Gangsta Rap is any more negative than some other genres and alternative forms of entertainment. I personally think violent movies, video games and negative portrayals of members of those communities do alot more harm than Gangsta Rap ever does. I am of the opinion that actual gratuitous violence and extremely graphic material that can be consumed by the human eye is alot more powerful and leaves a much more stronger impression on the mind.

From the perspective of a guy that use to live in these communities and still has family members located in them, the major problem in alot of the communities being discussed here is that education is not stressed enough in the household and alot of parents don't expect their kids to do somewhat better than they themselves did.

That really is the big and dirty secret, but Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

- Mike G.

it's awful hard to play the victim card when your very name is "gansta" and the songs you sing about include killing police, your fellow "brother" and so forth. this is real - this is what kids hear and act upon. this "video games are the cause of our downfall" - great. pong came into existance in 1975 give or take. did we have violence and "problem children" before then?

helter skelter hell yea.

you wanna dress like a thug, sing like a thug, act like a thug, don't get all amazed people think you're a ... thug.

[L-O-Jete]

it's awful hard to play the victim card when your very name is "gansta" and the songs you sing about include killing police, your fellow "brother" and so forth. this is real - this is what kids hear and act upon. this "video games are the cause of our downfall" - great. pong came into existance in 1975 give or take. did we have violence and "problem children" before then?

helter skelter hell yea.

you wanna dress like a thug, sing like a thug, act like a thug, don't get all amazed people think you're a ... thug.

Iceberg should know, I mean look at his pic...:laugh2: I'd run in the opposite direction.:D

[iceberg]

Iceberg should know, I mean look at his pic...:laugh2: I'd run in the opposite direction.:D

except i go by nordic viking. : )

[Big Dakota]

Iceberg should know, I mean look at his pic...:laugh2: I'd run in the opposite direction.:D


I always assumed that was a young Charlie Manson:p:

[jterrell]

he's being stereotypical limiting it to blacks, but any gang culture that condones and preaches violence is apt to be involved in a violent sport such as dog-fighting

I knew of a dog fighting ring that operated in Lubbock.
It was run largely by the very non-rap oriented, very all white, very all male population of the outlying county and reportedly had full support of the sheriff at the time.

Rap music has been around what 25 years now and a couple of mixed examples that truly were not at all similar is the basis for the argument??
Snoop Dogg and DMX call themselves dogs and identify with them.

Michael Vick is an idiot, that does not have anything to do with rap music.
Whitlock was crying about rap music when the Imus story came up as well.

Something tells me Imus wasn't listening to tons of rap when he got the inspiration for his insults. And it doesn't mean there isn't fault in certain lyrics but all genres of music have that. Always have and always will.

In country music I tend to prefer the most outlaw variety, and the hardest rock and most same with rap music. Most of it is probably offensive to someone somewhere for some reason.

How good can a musical group be if they have never been picketed or protested against???

lol.


BTW, in that same Lubbock Community they wouldn't let Marilyn Manson perform.

dogfighting=good; devil music=bad hehehe

[Yeagermeister]

I knew of a dog fighting ring that operated in Lubbock.
It was run largely by the very non-rap oriented, very all white, very all male population of the outlying county and reportedly had full support of the sheriff at the time.

Rap music has been around what 25 years now and a couple of mixed examples that truly were not at all similar is the basis for the argument??
Snoop Dogg and DMX call themselves dogs and identify with them.

Michael Vick is an idiot, that does not have anything to do with rap music.
Whitlock was crying about rap music when the Imus story came up as well.

Something tells me Imus wasn't listening to tons of rap when he got the inspiration for his insults. And it doesn't mean there isn't fault in certain lyrics but all genres of music have that. Always have and always will.

In country music I tend to prefer the most outlaw variety, and the hardest rock and most same with rap music. Most of it is probably offensive to someone somewhere for some reason.

How good can a musical group be if they have never been picketed or protested against???

lol.


BTW, in that same Lubbock Community they wouldn't let Marilyn Manson perform.

dogfighting=good; devil music=bad hehehe

I'd rather go to a dog fighting match than have to sit through a MM concert.

[jterrell]

I'd rather go to a dog fighting match than have to sit through a MM concert.

ROFL.

I wouldn't disagree.
I like one Manson song.


But my favorite song of all is probably : black dog... how ironic.

[L-O-Jete]

I knew of a dog fighting ring that operated in Lubbock.
It was run largely by the very non-rap oriented, very all white, very all male population of the outlying county and reportedly had full support of the sheriff at the time.

Rap music has been around what 25 years now and a couple of mixed examples that truly were not at all similar is the basis for the argument??
Snoop Dogg and DMX call themselves dogs and identify with them.

Michael Vick is an idiot, that does not have anything to do with rap music.
Whitlock was crying about rap music when the Imus story came up as well.

Something tells me Imus wasn't listening to tons of rap when he got the inspiration for his insults. And it doesn't mean there isn't fault in certain lyrics but all genres of music have that. Always have and always will.

In country music I tend to prefer the most outlaw variety, and the hardest rock and most same with rap music. Most of it is probably offensive to someone somewhere for some reason.

How good can a musical group be if they have never been picketed or protested against???

lol.


BTW, in that same Lubbock Community they wouldn't let Marilyn Manson perform.

dogfighting=good; devil music=bad hehehe

I don't think it's rap per se, it's the entire "culture" that they are trying to sell. I know it pi***** me off when someone sells the idea that if you are such and such THIS is your "culture" so you have to worship this or you are a traitor, sell out, etc. GangstaRap tells you you're either a Gangsta or you're a P*ss* and it has a lot of pull with kids, even more if some famous idiot like vick glorifies it and I think that is what has Whittlock fuming.

[ChldsPlay]

I usually think of Whitlock as an ignorant, arrogant idiot who hasn't a clue about anything he writes and simply pulls crap out of his hind quarters when he comes up with his articles.

Lately, however, I have found myself agreeing with him, as much as it pains me to say it. First his well done articles on the Imus "situation" and now this. Maybe he's making an effort to be a real journalist now.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Whitfield never once mentioned corn rows. That's something you've invented, all on your own.



And of course he said none of that either. The real issue here, Fuzzy, is you're putting words in Whitfield's mouth and saying he's wrong. But the only wrong I see here is that you're making it up as you go along.

You're not willing to address what Whitfield is really saying. And it's troubling, because Whitfield's claims are straightforwarrd enough.

1) He claims there is an element of popular culture that glorifies violence, popularizes violent dog breeds, and this element includes positive references to dog fighting. He gives examples of the same.

2) He claims that Michael V is influenced by that element of popular culture.

You know, sometimes these kinds of cultural claims are true.

Rock music, 1960s-1970s. People accused it of glorifying drug use. There was an element of popular culture that made it seem desirable and sexy, even.

And I guess if I point out that the Beatles and Elton John, for that matter, sang a song named Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds that glorified drug use, and pointed out that people were influenced by that (I can't name any offhand, so I'll choose Monty Python's Flying Circus.. yeah..), that of course I'm an anti British bigot, that I don't like Bass Ale and must think that all Britishers are little nerds with weird taste in glasses.

Hell, it makes as much sense as your accusations against Whitlock.

David.

From the article:

Vick is pictured looking very Snoop Dogg-esque, cornrows and goateed.

i would advise before you start talking about how i dont know what the article is saying that perhaps you should read it yourself.

At best its stereotyping negatively at its worst. If i want to put my hair in corn rows, wear baggie jeans and listen to Eazy-E while drinking OE that doesnt meant that i am going to start slanging crack, beating my girlfriend or start a dogfighting ring.

Its a part of culture and as per normal people that dont participate in that culture start making assumptions that have no basis.

And its funny that you mention the Betles because they definitely preached antiauthoritarianism and smack and acid use. So classic rock is evil. How about Johnny Cash he promoted violence and drug use. Any country music is bad.Creedence promoted draft dodging. Fact is any music is a simple copout for people that dont want to fix the real source of the problem.

You want to know why most people resort to crime? Because they are poor and uneducated. It doesnt matter if its 1968 or 2007.

Fact of the matter is that we make our own choices and while you may not like some musicians you live in a country where freedom of speech is sacred so your going to have to deal with it. If you dont want your kids to grow up abusive to women then teach them to treat a lady like a lady. My mother did and despite copious amounts of Slick Rick, Ludacris, Eazy-E and Snoop Dogg for some reason I never beat my girl. if you dont want your kid to rob liquor stores or deal coke then teach them the life skills they need to be a independent functional human being.

MencaeIISociety didnt make Newton sell dope, Gangsta Nip is not what made Allen Iverson throw his wife in the snow any more than Nino Brown made Michael Vick buy a dog. im sorry but if you want to fix all that crime then look to the people in section 8 housing and the surrounding schools not what they listen to.

You are certainly putting the cart before the horse. Vick doesnt act thee way he does becasue of DMX or whatever stupid music Whitfield is guessing he listens to. He grew up in a awful section of Newport News, VA. Allen iverson is from the same area. The music is a product of the environment not the other way around.

[burmafrd]

This crap about its all about how he grew up and therefore its not his fault is a joke. He went to college. He is educated. Its HIS choice. AND if he is involved with dog fighting there is no one else to blame but himself.

[Maikeru-sama]

it's awful hard to play the victim card when your very name is "gansta" and the songs you sing about include killing police, your fellow "brother" and so forth. this is real - this is what kids hear and act upon. this "video games are the cause of our downfall" - great. pong came into existance in 1975 give or take. did we have violence and "problem children" before then?

helter skelter hell yea.

you wanna dress like a thug, sing like a thug, act like a thug, don't get all amazed people think you're a ... thug.

The victim card was never pulled out of my pocket and displayed in any portion of my post. Being a former resident of the neighborhoods being discussed, I just offered some other alternative views on the subject at hand.

Furthermore, when was pong ever considered a violent video game?

The world, including the United States of America, is an extremely violent and dangerous place, always has been and as long as you have in existence these imperfect beings known as Human, it probably always will be. Murder, rape, genocide, degradation of women, slavery, kidnapping, war, terrorism and all other forms of historical ills were occuring before the inception of "Gangsta Rap" and therefore it shouldn't be a surprise that it happens concurrently with the genre and it will most certainly be around long after "Gangsta Rap" and for that matter, all other present forms of muscial expression are gone from this world.

- Mike G.

[burmafrd]

Gangsta rap just CONTRIBUTES to the problem.
And you still claim it has no effect?

[iceberg]

That really is the big and dirty secret, but Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

- Mike G.

The victim card was never pulled out of my pocket and displayed in any portion of my post. Being a former resident of the neighborhoods being discussed, I just offered some other alternative views on the subject at hand.

Furthermore, when was pong ever considered a violent video game?

The world, including the United States of America, is an extremely violent and dangerous place, always has been and as long as you have in existence these imperfect beings known as Human, it probably always will be. Murder, rape, genocide, degradation of women, slavery, kidnapping, war, terrorism and all other forms of historical ills were occuring before the inception of "Gangsta Rap" and therefore it shouldn't be a surprise that it happens concurrently with the genre and it will most certainly be around long after "Gangsta Rap" and for that matter, all other present forms of muscial expression are gone from this world.

- Mike G.

did you or did you not say something incredibally stupid like:

Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

how in the name of ancient nordic gods can it be responsible for things that were happening long before you even existed? this is why i get so tickled when people say the US causes terrorism.

we had terrorists long before we had a USA, so that can't be possible. it's far more likely we're dealing with an age old problem like many others are.

if you wanna blame video games, i reject that theory 100%. you wanna blame SOME video games, i'm more open to talking but you're going to need to quit making stupid blanket statements/lies like:

Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

gansta rap perpetuates the problem and encourages it. cop killin, ho slappin, and the like - it makes it "ok" to the youth and that's wrong.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This crap about its all about how he grew up and therefore its not his fault is a joke. He went to college. He is educated. Its HIS choice. AND if he is involved with dog fighting there is no one else to blame but himself.

Gangsta rap just CONTRIBUTES to the problem.
And you still claim it has no effect?

Which one is it burm? Is he responsible for his own actions and the environament he grew up in not matter or did music make him do it? You are aware that your contadicting yourself right?

Have you actually listened to any of it?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

did you or did you not say something incredibally stupid like:

Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

how in the name of ancient nordic gods can it be responsible for things that were happening long before you even existed? this is why i get so tickled when people say the US causes terrorism.

we had terrorists long before we had a USA, so that can't be possible. it's far more likely we're dealing with an age old problem like many others are.

if you wanna blame video games, i reject that theory 100%. you wanna blame SOME video games, i'm more open to talking but you're going to need to quit making stupid blanket statements/lies like:

Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

gansta rap perpetuates the problem and encourages it. cop killin, ho slappin, and the like - it makes it "ok" to the youth and that's wrong.

there is no evidence to support that music causes sociopathic behavior no matter how much clockwork oragne you watch.

[iceberg]

there is no evidence to support that music causes sociopathic behavior no matter how much clockwork oragne you watch.

in the end i agree. if someone is going to be a sociopath, they're going to be one. the music can heighten the mood but hell, anything around us can be used for "bad" if that's your goal. that doesn't inherantly make everything "bad".

never watched clockwork - too boring.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

in the end i agree. if someone is going to be a sociopath, they're going to be one. the music can heighten the mood but hell, anything around us can be used for "bad" if that's your goal. that doesn't inherantly make everything "bad".

never watched clockwork - too boring.

you tried to watch it and got bored? now that is something i havent heard. ive heard people say they were disturbed or weirded out but never board.

on a different note the Geto Boys cause violence to fax machines


http://trouble.philadelphiaweekly.com/archives/office-space-05.jpg

[iceberg]

now THAT was a funny movie but it didn't send me into the streets to cause chaos. : )

if you wanna ge weirded out how about boxing helena?

[Maikeru-sama]

did you or did you not say something incredibally stupid like:

Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

how in the name of ancient nordic gods can it be responsible for things that were happening long before you even existed? this is why i get so tickled when people say the US causes terrorism.

we had terrorists long before we had a USA, so that can't be possible. it's far more likely we're dealing with an age old problem like many others are.

if you wanna blame video games, i reject that theory 100%. you wanna blame SOME video games, i'm more open to talking but you're going to need to quit making stupid blanket statements/lies like:

Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

gansta rap perpetuates the problem and encourages it. cop killin, ho slappin, and the like - it makes it "ok" to the youth and that's wrong.

With all due respect, that is exactly my argument. You have some members of the anti-rap establishment that insinuate that if Gangsta Rap makes a quick exit, a majority of the social ills in society will magically cease to exist. While doing so, this group seems to also want to relay the totally absurd message to the masses that before Gangsta Rap hit the scene, you didn't have a problem with violence and anger among the youth of this country.

Don't take my word for it, I personally believe you said it best:

did we have violence and "problem children" before then?

Do we really need to take a trip down pre-Gangsta Rap memory lane here and visit some of more violent events when society certainly wasn't at its finest hour? Off the top of my head, the violence of the Prohibition Era? The Lynching Era in the 1880s - 1920s? Irish and/or Italian in Mafia Gang Land Chicago, New York and other big cities?, the Crips and Bloods in the late 1970s, Highschool Shootings. The list could go on and on and all of the aforementioned violent crime history pre-dates Gangsta Rap and to add, alot of the crimes being committed during these violent crime eras without a doubt involved young people.


Now Does "Gangsta Rap" and their fringe video and lyrical messages do some harm to Society at large, absolutely, but so does other forms of entertainment such as The Sopranos, Grand Theft Auto and some of the extreme forms of Rock/Heavy Metal but the Anti-Rap establishment will never admit that.

Now I am going to take the advice of my co-workers, who decided to drop in and take a peek and exit this debate. A succinct version of what they said, you are going to believe what you want to believe and I am certainly going to believe what I want to believe, which in the end, makes this country great.

I will just go ahead and take the high road and remove from memory the accusations of lying, the brow beating sessions of "if I want to dress like a thug" yada yada yada and the very sly move of trying to put me in bed with the Anti-War-on-terror crowd just because, quite frankley, I disagree with everything you say.

[iceberg]

With all due respect, that is exactly my argument. You have some members of the anti-rap establishment that insinuate that if Gangsta Rap makes a quick exit, a majority of the social ills in society will magically cease to exist. While doing so, this group seems to also want to relay the totally absurd message to the masses that before Gangsta Rap hit the scene, you didn't have a problem with violence and anger among the youth of this country.

Don't take my word for it, I personally believe you said it best:



Do we really need to take a trip down pre-Gangsta Rap memory lane here and visit some of more violent events when society certainly wasn't at its finest hour? Off the top of my head, the violence of the Prohibition Era? The Lynching Era in the 1880s - 1920s? Irish and/or Italian in Mafia Gang Land Chicago, New York and other big cities?, the Crips and Bloods in the late 1970s, Highschool Shootings. The list could go on and on and all of the aforementioned violent crime history pre-dates Gangsta Rap and to add, alot of the crimes being committed during these violent crime eras without a doubt involved young people.


Now Does "Gangsta Rap" and their fringe video and lyrical messages do some harm to Society at large, absolutely, but so does other forms of entertainment such as The Sopranos, Grand Theft Auto and some of the extreme forms of Rock/Heavy Metal but the Anti-Rap establishment will never admit that.

Now I am going to take the advice of my co-workers, who decided to drop in and take a peek and exit this debate. A succinct version of what they said, you are going to believe what you want to believe and I am certainly going to believe what I want to believe, which in the end, makes this country great.

I will just go ahead and take the high road and remove from memory the accusations of lying, the brow beating sessions of "if I want to dress like a thug" yada yada yada and the very sly move of trying to put me in bed with the Anti-War-on-terror crowd just because, quite frankley, I disagree with everything you say.

you do that. do you also disagree when you said:
With all due respect, that is exactly my argument.

in reference to what i said, or do you:
disagree with everything you say. ?

even if by disagreeing with everything i say you also disagree where i make your argument for you, making you wrong in the process.

my stance remains - if you dress like a thug, act like a thug, sing like a thug, people will think you a thug.

i don't exactly "blend" in either. i'm 6'4", 320, long hair, biker looking kinda dude that carries a price to pay for "me being me" too.

preconveived notions are just "1st level thought" and we all have them - even you. unless you disagree with me. when you agree with me. wow, that's still confusing me.

i don't like gansta rap but i never saw the full value of the beatles either. then again i don't care for rap. it's 4th grade rhyming to me that takes a HUGE rap talent to even make me acknowledge it's there (like gansta's paradise -now that was a good song!)

big deal. i'm sure you don't care for some of the music that means a lot to me either. who cares? someone else liking it shouldn't have to validate my own thoughts of it unless i'm just a pure follower - and i've known some of those too.

there's violence because people want more than they have or a matter of survival. it took time to put all the rest in the way like race, religion, (i doubt the cavemen killing cavemen were too worried about baptist or catholic) and things we learn along the way.

there are actions that perpetuate and glorify the "negative" actions and if that floats your boat, bon voyage. but accept that with that mentality comes a counter mentality by course of human nature.

feel free to agree the disagree cause at this point you're really arguing against yourself cause on the whole i agree with you. you just need to get past your part to see the whole.

[silverbear]

What an absurd argument... who in his right mind would ever believe that a series of "songs" glorifying such things as beating women, shooting each other, drugs and the like would lead young, impressionable kids to think such behavior was "cool"??

Does gangsta rap CAUSE antisocial behavior?? Of course not... but does it ENCOURAGE such behavior, make it more likely to happen?? Especially when those "singing" the praises of such behavior are often going out and LIVING the lifestyle they glorify... you're an idiot if you don't understand that it does...

Now, kindly tell me what the ATTRACTION is to "songs" glorifying thug behavior?? Where's the musical merit, where's the social merit?? Hell, half the time I can't even understand what the mush-mouths are SAYING; James Brown would have come off as articulate alongside most of those clowns...

I'm not saying it should be banned, freedom of speech is important, and it should even include speech that I find deeply repugnant... but I'm certainly saying it shouldn't be DEFENDED, because it's worthless GARBAGE...

It really is true, rap is crap... for sure, it ain't MUSIC...