Vick Indicted

[Cajuncowboy]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289693,00.html

Didn't see it posted yet.

[CATCH17]

http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=100236


Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick was indicted late Tuesday afternoon by a Federal Grand Jury in Richmond, Va., for one count of conspiracy to transport dogs across state lines for the purpose of dog fighting.

Vick became the focus of a federal dog fighting probe after an April 25 drug raid on his Surry County, Va., home. At that time, authorities seized 66 dogs, including 55 pit bulls, and equipment that suggested someone at the property was involved in a dog fighting operation.

Papers, filed earlier this month by federal authorities in U.S. District Court in Richmond, noted that dog fights have been sponsored by "Bad Newz Kennels" at the property since at least 2002.

Fifty-four animals were recovered from the property during searches in April, along with a "rape stand," used to hold dogs in place for mating; an electric treadmill modified for dogs; and a bloodied piece of carpeting, the documents said.

During a June search of the property, investigators uncovered the graves of seven pit bulls that were killed by members of "Bad Newz Kennels" following sessions to test whether dogs would be good fighters, the documents said.

Vick has claimed he rarely visits the Surry County home and was unaware of any criminal enterprise.

[iceberg]

rarely used the home he bragged about staying in during the 2002 offseason to play with his dogs. friggin liar getting what he deserves.

[ABQCOWBOY]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940065

Falcons' Vick indicted by grand jury in dogfighting probe
ESPN.com news services

Updated: July 17, 2007, 5:23 PM ET
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Michael Vick has been indicted by a federal grand jury in connection with the dogfighting probe of his property in Virginia.

The Falcons quarterback was indicted for conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District in Richmond, Va. Three others -- Purnell Peace, Quanis Phillips and Tony Taylor -- also were indicted by the grand jury on the same charges.

According to court documents filed by federal authorities earlier this month, dog fights have been sponsored by "Bad Newz Kennels" at the property since at least 2002. For the events, participants and dogs traveled from South Carolina, North Carolina, Maryland, New York, Texas and other states.

Members of the venture also knowingly transported, delivered and received dogs for animal fighting, the documents state.



Fifty-four pit bulls were recovered from the property during searches in April, along with a "rape stand," used to hold dogs in place for mating; an electric treadmill modified for dogs; and a bloodied piece of carpeting, the documents said.




The property was used as the "main staging area for housing and training the pit bulls involved in the dog fighting venture," according to the filings.



The documents said the fights usually occurred late at night or in the early morning and would last several hours. The winning dog would win from "hundreds up to thousands of dollars," and participants and spectators also would place bets on the fight.


Before fights, the participating dogs of the same sex would be weighed and bathed, according to the filings. Opposing dogs would be washed to remove any poison or narcotic placed on the dog's coat that could affect the other dog's performance. Sometimes participants would not feed a dog before the fight to "make it more hungry for the other dog," the documents said.


Fights would end when one dog died or with the surrender of the losing dog, which was sometimes put to death by drowning, strangulation, hanging, gun shot, electrocution or some other method, according to the documents. The property has an above-ground swimming pool, and investigators were seen looking into the pool Friday.



During a June search of the property, investigators uncovered the graves of seven pit bulls that were killed by members of "Bad Newz Kennels" following sessions to test whether dogs would be good fighters, the documents said.



Members of "Bad Newz Kennels" also sponsored and exhibited fights in other parts of Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Maryland, New Jersey and other states, the filings said.

On June 7, federal law enforcement officials descended on the property with a search warrant. More than a dozen vehicles went to the home early that day and investigators searched inside before turning their attention to the area where officials found dozens of dogs in late April and evidence that suggested the home was involved in a dogfighting operation.


Surry County officials had secured a search warrant in late May based on an informant's information to look for as many as 30 dog carcasses buried on the property. The warrant never was executed because Commonwealth's Attorney Gerald G. Poindexter said he had issues with the way it was worded.

The results of that search have remained sealed.

At the time, Poindexter expressed surprise at why the federal government was involved.

"What is foreign to me is the federal government getting into a dogfighting case," Poindexter said. "I know it's been done, but what's driving this? Is it this boy's celebrity? Would they have done this if it wasn't Michael Vick?"

A day later, "They launched a separate, independent federal investigation," Poindexter said of the government, which has had a representative involved in the local probe all along.

A search warrant affidavit said some of the dogs were in individual kennels and about 30 were tethered with "heavy logging-type chains" buried in the ground. The chains allowed the dogs to get close to each other, but not to have contact, one of myriad findings on the property that suggested a dogfighting operation.



Vick initially said he had no idea the property might have been used in a criminal enterprise and blamed family members for taking advantage of his generosity. He also put the house up for sale and reportedly sold it quickly, although there is no record that the sale has closed. Vick has since declined to talk about the investigation.

ESPN reporter Kelly Naqi and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[CrazyCowboy]

No surprise here......

[peplaw06]

1st page!!!

[bbgun]

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7799/nelsonmuntzxj9.jpg

[AbeBeta]

Lot of evidence there -- his house, tons of evidence of fighting. This may not end well for him -- he may avoid jail time but he's going to get nailed by the league and his agent is probably receiving numerous faxes right now from sponsors who no longer need Vick's services.

[iceberg]

Lot of evidence there -- his house, tons of evidence of fighting. This may not end well for him -- he may avoid jail time but he's going to get nailed by the league and his agent is probably receiving numerous faxes right now from sponsors who no longer need Vick's services.

that flushing noise you heard is....

how many games for this? 6-8?

[ABQCOWBOY]

that flushing noise you heard is....

how many games for this? 6-8?

Could be more then that. There trying to get him on RICO. That's big time.

[Juke99]

They kept Vick and got rid of Schaub.

OOOOooops.

[iceberg]

They kept Vick and got rid of Schaub.

OOOOooops.

i see atlanta crashing to the ground this year. when all this started you could already see that the new commish swung a heavy hammer. why trade your backup qb when you know there's a good chance your starter may be playing hard to get at the prison dances soon?

i'll bet he learns some new moves there, huh?

how many packs of cigs is vick worth???

[GimmeTheBall!]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289693,00.html

Didn't see it posted yet.

A rush to judgment
Innocent until proven guilty . . . .

He rarely visited the property and didn't know there was a MASSIVE dog-fighting operation headquartered there . . . .

liar, liar, pants on fire!!!


For once, I'm with PETA.
If convicted, the NFL has to severe ties with that guy forever and a day.

[MichaelWinicki]

If he's found guilty I hope the NFL does what's right...

[GimmeTheBall!]

i see atlanta crashing to the ground this year. when all this started you could already see that the new commish swung a heavy hammer. why trade your backup qb when you know there's a good chance your starter may be playing hard to get at the prison dances soon?

i'll bet he learns some new moves there, huh?

how many packs of cigs is vick worth???

You've got it wrong, slushy.

Vick will corrupt the inmates!
:laugh1:

[Hostile]

That groan you hear is Arthur Blank all the way in Atlanta.

Now comes the backlash.

[joseephuss]

i see atlanta crashing to the ground this year. when all this started you could already see that the new commish swung a heavy hammer. why trade your backup qb when you know there's a good chance your starter may be playing hard to get at the prison dances soon?

i'll bet he learns some new moves there, huh?

how many packs of cigs is vick worth???

Crashing to the ground? They lost 7 of their last 9 games last year prompting them to get a new coach and great new defensive coordinator. I say they crashed last year and now will just have a tough time getting up.

[stasheroo]

I wonder if any of our 'legal experts' could clarify the charges against him?

:confused:

[MichaelWinicki]

That groan you hear is Arthur Blank all the way in Atlanta.

Now comes the backlash.


That's true.

I would guess a lot of Falcon fans will be voicing their displeasure.

[AbeBeta]

that flushing noise you heard is....

how many games for this? 6-8?

They need to do something bold here -- first they need to call the commish and convince him to drop an immediate and indefinite suspension on Vick, then the need to ban him from their facilities, then they need to sign Culpepper. If they just wait and see how this plays out it will screw them terribly. Petrino doesn't need this baggage to start.

[5Stars]

This is what happens when you mess with "man's best friend"! Those dog ghosts are going to come back to haunt him! :mad:

I'm not going to hold my breath, but I really do doubt that the NFL or the law will do very much to Vick. He'll weasle out of it somehow, someway! :rolleyes:

[Juke99]

i see atlanta crashing to the ground this year. when all this started you could already see that the new commish swung a heavy hammer. why trade your backup qb when you know there's a good chance your starter may be playing hard to get at the prison dances soon?

i'll bet he learns some new moves there, huh?

how many packs of cigs is vick worth???

:)

I am amazed at how good people are at deceiving themselves when reality is staring them right in the face. How the management of this team did not consider Vick's situation is beyond me.

If he's convicted, yep, he's gonna learn how to scramble better than he ever did...

[Roughneck]

For those about to rock:

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2006/08/08/PH2006080800953.jpg

FIRE

We Salute You!

[5Stars]

You've got it wrong, slushy.

Vick will corrupt the inmates!
:laugh1:


And give all the inmates herpes!

:eek:

[iceberg]

Crashing to the ground? They lost 7 of their last 9 games last year prompting them to get a new coach and great new defensive coordinator. I say they crashed last year and now will just have a tough time getting up.

ok, so they're on the ground heaving from last years collapse and while they finally made it to their hands and knees, ALMOST READY TO GET UP - along comes this to kick 'em in the ribs a few more times and knocks 'em back out again.

better? :)

[iceberg]

:)

I am amazed at how good people are at deceiving themselves when reality is staring them right in the face. How the management of this team did not consider Vick's situation is beyond me.

If he's convicted, yep, he's gonna learn how to scramble better than he ever did...

i'd send him soap on a leashe just to be mean.

[bbgun]

It'll take more than an indictment for him to miss any games this year. This is his first strike, correct? Or did he have previous scrapes with the law? He doesn't appear to be a serial offender like his little brother.

[Seven]

They need to do something bold here -- first they need to call the commish and convince him to drop an immediate and indefinite suspension on Vick, then the need to ban him from their facilities, then they need to sign Culpepper. If they just wait and see how this plays out it will screw them terribly. Petrino doesn't need this baggage to start.

They have Harrington. Culpepper is a BUST. Always has been, always will be.

Dolphins couldn't even get a trade for the guy. Cut him and ate the millions.

The other portions of your post is spot on.

[Roughneck]

ok, so they're on the ground heaving from last years collapse and while they finally made it to their hands and knees, ALMOST READY TO GET UP - along comes this to kick 'em in the ribs a few more times and knocks 'em back out again.

better? :)And don't forget pissing on them.

Can't forget that one.

[Bungarian]

Dog fighting is disgusting. He deserves to be punished.

[iceberg]

It'll take more than an indictment for him to miss any games this year. This is his first strike, correct? Or did he have previous scrapes with the law? He doesn't appear to be a serial offender like his little brother.

i'm seeing the new management swing a heavy hammer and people who had a run in years ago he's just now getting to to punish. while he's swinging this wild and free, he's not going to miss a vick-slap on such a technicality. : )

[Hostile]

That's true.

I would guess a lot of Falcon fans will be voicing their displeasure.So will the activist groups. Expect picket lines at Falcons games until the Commissioner reacts. They may not be effective, but they will happen.

[Roughneck]

They have Harrington.That's not a good thing.

[dargonking999]

Man, i feel sorry for the people who drafted vick in FF

[burmafrd]

remember the Ron Mexico thing and the herpes mess? He has had bad publicity- but nothing really bad as regards LEGAL problems. However, he certainly has had enough BAD PUBLICITY that the Commish COULD use that as grounds that this is enough NOW to suspend him. BUT I bet that it will not happen right away. The Commish might decide to sit back and see how this plays out over the next week or so.

[Roughneck]

It'll take more than an indictment for him to miss any games this year. This is his first strike, correct? Or did he have previous scrapes with the law? He doesn't appear to be a serial offender like his little brother.He doesn't?

Ron Mexico, Middle Fingers, Water Bottle, Dog Fighting, etc.

[5Stars]

remember the Ron Mexico thing and the herpes mess? He has had bad publicity- but nothing really bad as regards LEGAL problems. However, he certainly has had enough BAD PUBLICITY that the Commish COULD use that as grounds that this is enough NOW to suspend him. BUT I bet that it will not happen right away. The Commish might decide to sit back and see how this plays out over the next week or so.


The punk will probably get a hefty fine and a one game suspension and come back on the field running around trying to play QB again! :rolleyes:

Honestly, something inside me tell me that he's not going to get much punishment our of this at all! And, I hope to hell I'm wrong!

[joseephuss]

They have Harrington. Culpepper is a BUST. Always has been, always will be.

Dolphins couldn't even get a trade for the guy. Cut him and ate the millions.

The other portions of your post is spot on.

What? Culpepper always a bust. If he has always been a bust then I hope Romo has the same kind of success.

So the Falcons have Harrington and that is supposed to keep them from signing Culpepper. Harrington is the one that is a bust. He was drafted higher than Culpepper and achieved far less.

Culpepper may not worth signing now because he is still injured and probably won't be 100%. Harrington is healthy and is not worth having and never has been.

[burmafrd]

What happened to that thread "Vick Indictment Unlikely"?

[bbgun]

i'm seeing the new management swing a heavy hammer and people who had a run in years ago he's just now getting to to punish. while he's swinging this wild and free, he's not going to miss a vick-slap on such a technicality. : )

True. But what if the commish suspended him, only to see him acquitted months later. He'd look foolish.

[5Stars]

He doesn't?

Ron Mexico, Middle Fingers, Water Bottle,


Non of those things "broke the law"...we will soon find out about the dog fighting...

[Hostile]

What happened to that thread "Vick Indictment Unlikely"?The search function works.

[iceberg]

True. But what if the commish suspended him, only to see him acquitted months later. He'd look foolish.

as adam has pointed out many times - the NFL "judicial" system doesn't use only the "American" judicial system to dole out punishments.

contractually the NFL can be their own judge and jury - period. real world need not apply.

[burmafrd]

Hos, I thought you recognized sarcasm?

[Big Dakota]

What happened to that thread "Vick Indictment Unlikely"?


And the apologist's that went with it?:lmao2:

[Roughneck]

Non of those things "broke the law"...we will soon find out about the dog fighting...They might not have broken the law but they sure as hell don't paint a pretty picture. Vick has put a huge target on his back the last couple of years and that will not help him come Goodell judgment. And Mike better pray that the media/protest groups don't run with this like they did the Imus situation.

[5Stars]

And the apologist's that went with it?:lmao2:


That would be ThreeSportsStar and his band of gypsies....

I think their trying to find that post and hide it the best they can now!

:laugh2:

[bbgun]

as adam has pointed out many times - the NFL "judicial" system doesn't use only the "American" judicial system to dole out punishments.

contractually the NFL can be their own judge and jury - period. real world need not apply.

I don't pay heed to adam outside of cap issues. In any event, Vick is not a serial offender like Pacman, and it'll take more than an accusation for him to miss any time. At least that's my gut instinct.

[5Stars]

They might not have broken the law but they sure as hell don't paint a pretty picture. Vick has put a huge target on his back the last couple of years and that will not help him come Goodell judgment. And Mike better pray that the media/protest groups don't run with this like they did the Imus situation.


I agree...he's a punk, period!

You know...I can somewhat understand a player on weed...or a player getting a DUI...or a player doing most stuff that most everyday people get busted for...but friggen dog fighting!? Vick is very lucky I'm not in charge of this situation!

[Hostile]

Hos, I thought you recognized sarcasm?I thought you did.

[cobra]

I'm pretty sure we will see a RICO indictment, as well. RICO ("Rackteer Influenced Corrupt Organizations" Act) is what all the mob bosses get tagged on. Basically, if he was running an organization in which there was gambling on an activity that is illegal under state law (and dog fighting is illegal under Virginia law), then he can get tagged with RICO and go to jail for a long time. The thing about RICO charges is that they can be wide-ranging to anyone involved in the organization. And since there apparently was some official name of this organization and done on Vick's property, there is a strong case for a RICO indictment forthcoming.

[5Stars]

I'm pretty sure we will see a RICO indictment, as well. RICO ("Rackteer Influenced Corrupt Organizations" Act) is what all the mob bosses get tagged on. Basically, if he was running an organization in which there was gambling on an activity that is illegal under state law (and dog fighting is illegal under Virginia law), then he can get tagged with RICO and go to jail for a long time. The thing about RICO charges is that they can be wide-ranging to anyone involved in the organization. And since there apparently was some official name of this organization and done on Vick's property, there is a strong case for a RICO indictment forthcoming.

Thanks for that explanation, cobra! I kept reading about RICO and was wondering what that means...now I know.

[Hostile]

I'm pretty sure we will see a RICO indictment, as well. RICO ("Rackteer Influenced Corrupt Organizations" Act) is what all the mob bosses get tagged on. Basically, if he was running an organization in which there was gambling on an activity that is illegal under state law (and dog fighting is illegal under Virginia law), then he can get tagged with RICO and go to jail for a long time. The thing about RICO charges is that they can be wide-ranging to anyone involved in the organization. And since there apparently was some official name of this organization and done on Vick's property, there is a strong case for a RICO indictment forthcoming.Yikes. Thank you for explaining this.

First the moan from Blank in Atlanta. Now the expletive from NYC and Mr. Goodell.

[jackrussell]

That would be ThreeSportsStar and his band of gypsies....

I think their trying to find that post and hide it the best they can now!

:laugh2:

TOO LATE (http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89912&highlight=vick+indictment)

Thanks for that explanation, cobra! I kept reading about RICO and was wondering what that means...now I know.

Yeah....I thought it was Ron Mexico's brother.

[03EBZ06]

Not surprised with this indictment. Falcons and Vick are in for some rough ride.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

rarely used the home he bragged about staying in during the 2002 offseason to play with his dogs. friggin liar getting what he deserves.

In all fairness, it is just an indictment, in no way is it a finding of guilt.

[5Stars]

Yeah....I thought it was Ron Mexico's brother.


:lmao2: :laugh2: :laugh1: :lmao2: :laugh2:


Damn dumb Cowboy fans!

[bobtheflob]

There's no way the NFL can't come down hard on this. They'd be called hypocrites by everyone and their dog if they don't.

[burmafrd]

for RICO to stick, I think it has to be shown that VIck was a leader or head honcho. Not sure just being involved will be enough. But it could be. I happen to think that RICO is over used- but it this dog fighting ring is as big as it sounds, it probably does qualify.

[Chocolate Lab]

What happened to that thread "Vick Indictment Unlikely"?

Yep... Mort has some egg on his face right now...

Mosley suggested earlier that it was someone in the Falcons organization who told him that Vick wouldn't be indicted. Maybe they were just hoping.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

There's no way the NFL can't come down hard on this. They'd be called hypocrites by everyone and their dog if they don't.

Don't you think the NFL should wait to see if he is found guilty before doing anything?

[5Stars]

Don't you think the NFL should wait to see if he is found guilty before doing anything?


Once again...how many freaking times must it be said that NFL punishment is not the equivelent of law and order punishment!

Did you not listen in your law school, Mr. Barristor and Solicitor?

:rolleyes:

[Big Dakota]

Don't you think the NFL should wait to see if he is found guilty before doing anything?


Like Punkman?

[Big Dakota]

Once again...how many freaking times must it be said that NFL punishment is not the equivelent of law and order punishment!

Did you not listen in your law school, Mr. Barristor and Solicitor?

:rolleyes:

Supreme Court of Canada

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Bob_and_Doug.jpg/250px-Bob_and_Doug.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bob_and_Doug.jpg)

[GimmeTheBall!]

Don't you think the NFL should wait to see if he is found guilty before doing anything?

I find the defecadent Michael Vick guilty as indicted!

And if this dog torturer starts the first game of Atlanta's season, I look foward to legions of fans throwing dog biscuits out in the field. (Biodegradable, biscuits, of course. I don't want no real littering, ahem.)

[jackrussell]

This calls for an emergency meeting of the DVS.

Where's our fearless Lord Muckity when you need him?

[cobra]

In all fairness, it is just an indictment, in no way is it a finding of guilt.

One ought not overlook the old adage that "you can indict a ham sandwich."

Nevertheless, this does not portend well for Vick for two reasons:

1. It's a clear indication that the Feds have looked at this and want to proceed with it. If they didn't have the stomach for it, they wouldn't have gone with the indictment. Since they want to go forward, you can bet they have some smoking guns and some further indictments going forward. And that is where RICO might come in.

2. Other individuals were indicted, and they are going to be put in position to potentially "roll over" on others, especially the high-value-target Vick. If some people place him involved after plea bargaining, Vick is in some deep poo.

[5Stars]

I find the defecadent Michael Vick guilty as indicted!

And if this dog torturer starts the first game of Atlanta's season, I look foward to legions of fans throwing dog biscuits out in the field. (Biodegradable, biscuits, of course. I don't want no real littering, ahem.)


:laugh2: Now, the dog biscuit throwing would be a good and funny idea!


But, I think the fans in Atlanta love Senior Mexico so much that they would cheer loudly when he runs his first 10 yards for a first down....:rolleyes: , then they will forget about the dogs like it never happened!

[theogt]

He better be out for at least a year. Federal charges, man.

[AbeBeta]

What happened to that thread "Vick Indictment Unlikely"?

That was a piece of wishful thinking -- the evidence cited for an unlikely indictment was that Vick wasn't named -- but nobody was named in the filing so that was non-evidence that a sportswriter misinterpreted.

[bobtheflob]

Other players have gotten in trouble because they were issued a breathalizer test, I'd say an indictment is worse.

[THUMPER]

They kept Vick and got rid of Schaub.

OOOOooops.

That was my first thought when this first surfaced a few months ago. They will rue the day they made that move. :lmao2:

[jackrussell]

But, I think the fans in Atlanta love Senior Mexico so much that they would cheer loudly when he runs his first 10 yards for a first down....:rolleyes: , then they will forget about the dogs like it never happened!

That shouldn't come as any surprise...

http://www.hellinahandbasket.net/hillbillymuskets.JPG

[bbgun]

Once again...how many freaking times must it be said that NFL punishment is not the equivelent of law and order punishment!

Even the NFL has to maintain standards. Otherwise they run the risk of looking completely arbitrary. Goodall can't dispense wildly different sentences on a whim. If he did, activists like Sharpton would camp outside his office with a bullhorn.

[THUMPER]

He better be out for at least a year. Federal charges, man.

He might be "in" for at least a year. Federal charges man. :eek:

[AbeBeta]

Don't you think the NFL should wait to see if he is found guilty before doing anything?

The news is going to be thick with this for days. that hurts the league's image and Vick could have avoided the situation.

That sir = suspension.

[5Stars]

Even the NFL has to maintain standards. Otherwise they run the risk of looking completely arbitrary. Goodall can't dispense wildly different sentences on a whim. If he did, activists like Sharpton would camp outside his office with a bullhorn.


Very true...that's why I don't think anything really harsh is going to happen to this scumbag!

[Chocolate Lab]

One ought not overlook the old adage that "you can indict a ham sandwich."

Nevertheless, this does not portend well for Vick for two reasons:

1. It's a clear indication that the Feds have looked at this and want to proceed with it. If they didn't have the stomach for it, they wouldn't have gone with the indictment. Since they want to go forward, you can bet they have some smoking guns and some further indictments going forward. And that is where RICO might come in.

2. Other individuals were indicted, and they are going to be put in position to potentially "roll over" on others, especially the high-value-target Vick. If some people place him involved after plea bargaining, Vick is in some deep poo.

103.3 has a copy of the indictment, and Mosley is reading bits of it as he gets time. Apparently the Feds cite specific instances of "Bad Newz Kennels" dogs fighting other dogs from other dogfighting clubs from 2001 to 2007. They've got the actual genders and names of the dogs involved.

I don't know anything about dogfighting, but it sounds like a sick to-the-death version of a dual match, like you'd have with another school in tennis or track. :mad:

And maybe this was already common knowledge, and not specific to this case. But when the dogs lived, they'd often strangle, hang, or drown them. :mad:

They also had the specific dollar amount used to start the organization, and Vick is one of the three along with "T" and "Q". So it's not like he was just the owner of the property.

Even if he isn't convicted, he's in very deep caca.

[Big Dakota]

That shouldn't come as any surprise...

http://www.hellinahandbasket.net/hillbillymuskets.JPG


:laugh1: Blank and Petrino

[AbeBeta]

Even the NFL has to maintain standards. Otherwise they run the risk of looking completely arbitrary. Goodall can't dispense wildly different sentences on a whim. If he did, activists like Sharpton would camp outside his office with a bullhorn.

Goodie has free reign on this one - it isn't like someone got hit with a DUI -- we can be reasonably sure that there is no comparison case here nor will there likely ever be one.

And lay off the Sharpton biz - he's got nothing to do with this - you are just trying to start something.

[5Stars]

And lay off the Sharpton biz - he's got nothing to do with this - you are just trying to start something.

Actually, abersonic...I don't think BBGun is trying to start something, I think you are taking it wrong...because that is most likely exactely what would happen...

It's true...it's been done before.

:o:

[bbgun]

Goodie has free reign on this one - it isn't like someone got hit with a DUI -- we can be reasonably sure that there is no comparison case here nor will there likely ever be one.

Yes, the charge is very serious, but the NFL has to project some semblance of fairness.

And lay off the Sharpton biz - he's got nothing to do with this - you are just trying to start something.

Sharp is known for sticking his nose where it doesn't belong. Ever heard of Duke? Plus, Vick's defenders have already played the race card, so I'm on solid ground.

[AbeBeta]

Actually, abersonic...I don't think BBGun is trying to start something, I think you are taking it wrong...because that is most likely exactely what would happen...

It's true...it's been done before.

:o:

I'm sorry, where has Sharpton been for these other suspensions then?

[AbeBeta]

Yes, the charge is very serious, but the NFL has to project some semblance of fairness.


How can you have "fairness" if you have no comparable situation to establish that?



Sharp is known for sticking his nose where it doesn't belong. Ever heard of Duke? Plus, Vick's defenders have already played the race card, so I'm on solid ground.

Yawn.

[5Stars]

I'm sorry, where has Sharpton been for these other suspensions then?


Carry on...

[bbgun]

I'm sorry, where has Sharpton been for these other suspensions then?

He was too busy trying to frame, defame, and imprison three innocent student athletes. There's only so many hours in a day.

[AbeBeta]

He was too busy trying to frame, defame, and imprison three innocent student athletes. There's only so many hours in a day.

Yawn.

[cobra]

Here is a link to the indictment. (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick1.html)

I'll read it over and give my off-the-cuff impressions. I haven't fooled with indictments since I did some time in the clinic during law school years ago, but I should be able to give some insight in a few.

[5Stars]

I wonder how Poindexter is going to be involved in all this mess? Isn't he the one that did not want the search warrent to take place because of "the wording" or something like that?

:confused:

[Rocky]

By SAEED AHMED
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

A federal grand jury on Tuesday indicted Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick for his alleged role in a dogfighting operation in Virginia where breeders fought pitbulls for purses as high as $20,000 and losing dogs were electrocuted, drowned, hanged or shot to death.

In addition to Vick, 27, the 18-page federal indictment, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virgina, also names three other defendants: Purnell A. Peace,35, of Virgina Beach; Quanis L. Phillips, 28, of Atlanta; and Tony Taylor, 34, of Hampton, Va.

The grand jury charged that the four purchased a parcel of land to serve as the main staging area to house and train pit bulls and to host fights.

The indictment said the four established a kennel, purchased pitbulls, trained and bred them and went to several locations to engage them in fights. The location also played host to several dog fights attended by competitors from several states.

And when the dogs didn't perform well in initial testing, they met a cruel fate. The indictment says "In or about April 2007, Peace, Phillips and Vick executed approximately 8 dogs that did not perform well in "testing" sessions at 1915 Moonlight Road by various methods, including hanging, drowning, and slamming at least one dog's body to the ground."

If convicted on the travel portion of the charges, each of the four face a maximum of five years in prison. If convicted on the animal fighting charge, each face one year in prison.

According to prosecutors, Vick paid $34,000 to purchase a property in Smithfield, Va., in June 2001, and the four men formed a dogfighting enterprise that they named "Bad Newz Kennels." Urban Dictionary lists Bad Newz as the street name for Newport News, Va., Vick's hometown.

They set about purchasing dogs and puppies from several sellers, paying -- in one case -- about $1,000 for four pit bull puppies.

The men, aided by others, then set about making alterations to the property, such as erecting a fence to shield the back of the compound from public view. Also included in the alterations: "kennels and buried car axles with chains for the pit bulls. The buried car axles allow the dog chains to pivot, allowing the pit bulls to avoid getting tangled in the chains."

Testing the dogs

The following year, Peace and Vick "rolled" or tested some of the fighting dogs, the indictment said.

The men placed the dog in a short fighting match to see how well it fared.

That February, Peace killed a poor-performing pit bull by shooting with a 0.22 caliber pistol. And as the months went on, various defendants are accused of shooting dogs that didn't live up to fighting standards.

The fights begin

At this point, page after page of the indictment details several fights that the defendants either hosted at the property or took their dogs to. The fights involved dogs with names such as "Seal," "Maniac," and "Zebro."

The men hosted dog fighting competitions at the location where participants and dogs traveled from South Carolina, North Carolina, Maryland, New York, Texas, Alabama and elsewhere.
The purse for each fight would range into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and each bout would last until one of the dogs died or surrendered. A purse for one such fight was established at $10,000 per side, meaning that the winner stood to win $20,000.

The losing dog would be put to death by drowning, hanging, gunshot, electrocution or a different method, the indictment alleged.

"In or about March of 2003, Peace, after consulting with Vick about the losing female pit bull's condition, executed the losing dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal," the indictment said.

The situation this year

As late as April of 2007, the four men continued fighting the dogs -- "approximately 54 American Pit Bull Terriers, some of which had scars and injuries appearing to be related to dog fighting; a 'rape stand,' a device in which a female dog who is too aggressive to submit to males for breeding is strapped down with her head held in place by a restraint," and more.

Vick's denials

Vick, one of the highest-paid players in the National Football League, has denied any involvement in dogfighting. In his one statement on the issue, speaking from New York before the NFL Draft, Vick told the AJC he was not involved in dogfighting and claimed relatives were responsible for his trouble.

Vick has bred and sold pitbulls and other breeds through two companies: Mike Vick K-9 Kennels and MV7 Inc. (named for his initials and his football jersey number). The companies' Web site -- recently taken offline -- described their animals as "family pets."

"We do not promote, support or raise dogs for fighting, " the Web site said, "and will not knowingly sell, give or trade any dog that may be used for fighting."

Vick and the Falcons report to training camp on July 25, with the first practice set for July 26.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/07/17/vickindict_0717.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab

[dbair1967]

They kept Vick and got rid of Schaub.

OOOOooops.

credit that moron Blank for that too...

this is just hilarious...th only way it could be better is if Vick played for the Redskins or Eagles...I hope the piece of garbage gets 20 yrs...I'm sure some of that 130 million he has will be used to buy his way out of this, but he is, and always will be a piece of trash loser

David

[tunahelper]

Yabba Dabba Doo, I hope this punk gets screwed, for making the pit bulls fued!

[5Stars]

Here is a link to the indictment. (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick1.html)

I'll read it over and give my off-the-cuff impressions. I haven't fooled with indictments since I did some time in the clinic during law school years ago, but I should be able to give some insight in a few.


:eek: Damn, you are going to read 18 pages of gobbled-de-gock! :laugh2:

I could read it too, but I would not know what the hell I was reading!

But, thanks, I cannot wait for your take on this.

[eduncan22]

Lot of evidence there -- his house, tons of evidence of fighting. This may not end well for him -- he may avoid jail time but he's going to get nailed by the league and his agent is probably receiving numerous faxes right now from sponsors who no longer need Vick's services.

Federal Indictment = Jail

Everything is based on sentencing guidelines.

There is no parole.

Vick is going to jail.

[theogt]

Here is a link to the indictment. (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick1.html)

I'll read it over and give my off-the-cuff impressions. I haven't fooled with indictments since I did some time in the clinic during law school years ago, but I should be able to give some insight in a few.Page 1

"MICHAEL VICK, also known as Ookie..."

LOLZ!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love reading stuff like this in federal court documents.

[Jarv]

I think Wonderdog is on the case, just saw a commercial for the movie. Brings me back to my childhood.

Does Vick even have any endorsements left to lose ???

[dbair1967]

If he's found guilty I hope the NFL does what's right...

they should do whats right regardless...Vick is an embarrassment to the league and a disgrace...people who take part in dogfighting are just about the lowest forms of life

David

[eduncan22]

they should do whats right regardless...Vick is an embarrassment to the league and a disgrace...people who take part in dogfighting are just about the lowest forms of life

David

yep.

Anyone who is into this sorta things needs some help.

In any case, Vick will be going to jail.

99.99 of Federal Indictments end with a conviction/plea agreement.

Vick is going to jail.

[cobra]

Yep, they got him on RICO.

He was indicted for violating this statute (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001952----000-.html).

Here is the RICO act. (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_96.html)

It's up to 20 years per violation of the Act. He was indicted for at least 10 separate acts.

Screw suspension. He is in deep, deep poop federally.

[dbair1967]

That groan you hear is Arthur Blank all the way in Atlanta.

Now comes the backlash.

its his own fault...he's been slamming him down everyone's throat for years, and doing everything he can to keep all of Vick's garbage under the rug...he gave him a ridiculous contract, ran off the only coach who has ever done anything positive on the field for the loser, hired another college coach and vastly overpaid to egt im, then proclaimed that the coach would decide who the QB would be, followed that up by promptly trading away the competition at QB before said coach ever saw him take one snap on the field...

Blank deserves whatever he gets

David

[AbeBeta]

Page 1

"MICHAEL VICK, also known as Ookie..."

LOLZ!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love reading stuff like this in federal court documents.

There is some amazing detail in there --

[dbair1967]

What happened to that thread "Vick Indictment Unlikely"?

Mortensen= Falcon/Vick blind homer

David

[eduncan22]

its his own fault...he's been slamming him down everyone's throat for years, and doing everything he can to keep all of Vick's garbage under the rug...he gave him a ridiculous contract, ran off the only coach who has ever done anything positive on the field for the loser, hired another college coach and vastly overpaid to egt im, then proclaimed that the coach would decide who the QB would be, followed that up by promptly trading away the competition at QB before said coach ever saw him take one snap on the field...

Blank deserves whatever he gets

David

Falcons .... losers.

[Roughneck]

A federal grand jury on Tuesday indicted Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick for his alleged role in a dogfighting operation in Virginia where breeders fought pitbulls for purses as high as $20,000 and losing dogs were electrocuted, drowned, hanged or shot to death.:mad:

That is so beyond f'ed up that it is to the point of nauseating.

[dbair1967]

In all fairness, it is just an indictment, in no way is it a finding of guilt.

yeah ok...you keep telling yourself that..."Vick is innocent"..."Vick is innocent"

please...the guys been in this junk up to his neck for years...he's been in other bad stuff and he hangs out with some huge thugs...trouble finds trouble makers

David

[smarta5150]

Anyone wanna buy my Vick jersey?

[Roughneck]

Yep, they got him on RICO.

He was indicted for violating this statute (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001952----000-.html).

Here is the RICO act. (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_96.html)

It's up to 20 years per violation of the Act. He was indicted for at least 10 separate acts.

Screw suspension. He is in deep, deep poop federally.That's what I like to hear.

Appreciate the info cobra for those of us who aren't exactly legal savvy.

[cobra]

Just something you should note here. For instance, look at this page (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick16.html). Paragraph 76. Notice the phrase "CW #4"? That means cooperating witness #4. That means for the indictment they had at least 4 cooperating witnesses. And if this goes to trial, I suspect that one or more of the other three will cooperate against Vick since he was the money man and therefore the big target. This jacks up the success rate of this kind of prosecution from the 95% rate to probably something like the 99.5% rate.

He is in some serious deep poop.

[5Stars]

Just something you should note here. For instance, look at this page (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick16.html). Paragraph 76. Notice the phrase "CW #4"? That means cooperating witness #4. That means for the indictment they had at least 4 cooperating witnesses. And if this goes to trial, I suspect that one or more of the other three will cooperate against Vick since he was the money man and therefore the big target. This jacks up the success rate of this kind of prosecution from the 95% rate to probably something like the 99.5% rate.

He is in some serious deep poop.


Wow! :eek: Thanks cobra...

What do you think about federal vs. local indictment? Is it worse in federal rather than local?

[Rocky]

Just something you should note here. For instance, look at this page (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick16.html). Paragraph 76. Notice the phrase "CW #4"? That means cooperating witness #4. That means for the indictment they had at least 4 cooperating witnesses. And if this goes to trial, I suspect that one or more of the other three will cooperate against Vick since he was the money man and therefore the big target. This jacks up the success rate of this kind of prosecution from the 95% rate to probably something like the 99.5% rate.

He is in some serious deep poop.

You can bet the feds were very meticulous in preparing these charges before handing this thing down. Kobe anyone? Vick better play his best hand, whatever he's got.

[Chocolate Lab]

Not that fighting to the death isn't bad enough... But how do they electrocute these dogs that don't test well?

Not sure I want to know -- but that just seems like an unusually inhumane and cruel way to do away with them. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[5Stars]

Kobe anyone? Vick better play his best hand, whatever he's got.


This is what scares me...too many rich people can get away with murder apparantly!

Now, Kobe might have been innocent, and I don't care that he got layed....but if this freaking thug gets off of this dog fighting indictment....man oh man!

[theogt]

Yep, they got him on RICO.

He was indicted for violating this statute (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001952----000-.html).

Here is the RICO act. (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_96.html)

It's up to 20 years per violation of the Act. He was indicted for at least 10 separate acts.

Screw suspension. He is in deep, deep poop federally.Ehh...I doubt he faces any jail time.

[5Stars]

Not that fighting to the death isn't bad enough... But how do they electrocute these dogs that don't test well?

Not sure I want to know -- but that just seems like an unusually inhumane and cruel way to do away with them. :mad: :mad: :mad:


They hook one side of the wire to the dogs mouth and the other wire to the dogs grapes and plug the cord into the electrial outlet!

Ted Bundy, if he were still alive could tell you exactely how it's done...


:eek:

[5Stars]

Ehh...I doubt he faces any jail time.


I do too...he will get a slap on the pee-pee...pay a few bucks, and all is good...life goes on for him.


:bang2:

[cobra]

Wow! :eek: Thanks cobra...

What do you think about federal vs. local indictment? Is it worse in federal rather than local?

His odds are worse under the federal indictment. Federal prosecutors are talented individuals. State District Attorneys tend to be inept people. Federal prosecutors are clean, efficient, skilled, and have an overwhelming success rate.

His chances at plea bargaining also significantly decreases in federal court. State courts are more overwhelmed and therefore more apt to allow defendants to plea. That incentive isn't there in federal court.

Also, the federal violations can be a lot harsher because they compound easier. So, while under state law he might just be guilty of dog fighting, under federal law, the same activity can all of the sudden be gambling, conspiracy to commit gambling, mail fraud, interstate criminal behavior, income tax invasion and a host of other things all associated with the dog fighting, gambling, and payment of monies surrounding the gambling.

[Roughneck]

Ehh...I doubt he faces any jail time.You might be right but it sure as hell isn't looking good for him.

The severity of the charges combined with the number of witnesses who can place him on the scene and state his involvement with the actual fights all but assures that he isn't going to get off scott free. Certainly not with Goodell and the NFL.

[Rampage]

mike vick is a p.o.s.

[5Stars]

His odds are worse under the federal indictment. Federal prosecutors are talented individuals. State District Attorneys tend to be inept people. Federal prosecutors are clean, efficient, skilled, and have an overwhelming success rate.

His chances at plea bargaining also significantly decreases in federal court. State courts are more overwhelmed and therefore more apt to allow defendants to plea. That incentive isn't there in federal court.

Also, the federal violations can be a lot harsher because they compound easier. So, while under state law he might just be guilty of dog fighting, under federal law, the same activity can all of the sudden be gambling, conspiracy to commit gambling, mail fraud, interstate criminal behavior, income tax invasion and a host of other things all associated with the dog fighting, gambling, and payment of monies surrounding the gambling.


That is very interesting! I never considered those other things like gambling, or IRS interest, or what not! Mail fraud...man, thanks!

:starspin

[Rocky]

This is what scares me...too many rich people can get away with murder apparantly!

Now, Kobe might have been innocent, and I don't care that he got layed....but if this freaking thug gets off of this dog fighting indictment....man oh man!

I don't have an opinion about Kobe's guilt or innocence in that case-- was just emphasizing that it wasn't handled well from a prosecutorial standpoint. And that any case brought against someone of Vick's stature better be tight, or not brought at all.

[stasheroo]

Ehh...I doubt he faces any jail time.

I'll take that bet!

:shake:

[Bob Sacamano]

WOOHOO Vick's going DOWN!

[5Stars]

I'll take that bet!

:shake:


I'll take that bet. One dollar that Vick don't see no time?

;)

[03EBZ06]

Ehh...I doubt he faces any jail time.
Perhaps but then many people thought he would never get indicted as well.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

If he is found guilty, then of course he deserves to be suspended. Dog fighting, fighting etc are disgusting. However, just being indicted is not enough.

Simply saying the NFL can do what it wants is ridiculous as the NFLPA would slap a grievance on the NFL faster than anything and rightfully so in my view.

[Dallas]

Not that fighting to the death isn't bad enough... But how do they electrocute these dogs that don't test well?

Not sure I want to know -- but that just seems like an unusually inhumane and cruel way to do away with them. :mad: :mad: :mad:

I watched a documentary the other day about dog fighting in the U.S. It is over at Netflix.com. One can even watch it online.

They showed a dog being electrocuted to death.

They have these wires with little pinchers on each end. They hook one up to an ear and the other up under the dog's stomach and flip the switch on the battery. Some just plug the end's into an open wall socket and walk away.

It was horrible to see.

[5Stars]

If he is found guilty, then of course he deserves to be suspended. Dog fighting, fighting etc are disgusting. However, just being indicted is not enough.

Simply saying the NFL can do what it wants is ridiculous as the NFLPA would slap a grievance on the NFL faster than anything and rightfully so in my view.


:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

[DanTanna]

Coach Killa

Dog Killa

Team Killa

I hope this doesn't screw up our #1 pick from Cleveland.

[Chocolate Lab]

Just read the whole thing (thanks for the link, Cobra) and Vick is in deep.

There were TONS of fights going on. Not a few, but tens of them, at least.

And I noticed that early on, Vick mainly paid for the property, but didn't seem to be attending the fights. Later, he not only attended the fights, but in at least one instance actually travelled across state lines to take the dog to an "away" fight.

He also (allegedly) personally fetched and delivered a bag of $23,000 to an opposing ring member when one of his dogs lost a fight.

You read this, and he's really in huge trouble. I'm no prosecutor, but it sounds like about all the defense will have is the usual character assassination of the witnesses. And of course, these are shady characters who are operating in these things to begin with. So it might work.

But I have no doubt that he was an active participant in this. You wonder what Goodell will do, because this is a sick, sick story.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Of course it's horrible, dogs are part of the family so we are grossed out by it. However, one could say that calf roping etc is equally as grotesque, only difference is some lawmaker has made fighting and dog fighting illegal whereas one can watch calf roping etc legally.

[iceberg]

If he is found guilty, then of course he deserves to be suspended. Dog fighting, fighting etc are disgusting. However, just being indicted is not enough.

Simply saying the NFL can do what it wants is ridiculous as the NFLPA would slap a grievance on the NFL faster than anything and rightfully so in my view.

again - the US Judicial system is not the end all be all for *all* people *and* businesses to abide by.

when a player plays for the NFL, he signs a contract that contains a code of conduct that may or may *NOT* have anything to do with "legal" issues the player could face *outside* the NFL. the nfl can have it's own set of rules and can easily find vick in violation of their own code of conduct policy and note down any punishmen they see fit for their own rules.

what happens in a "legal" sense is meaningless.

some people can't seperate the two.

[Roughneck]

If he is found guilty, then of course he deserves to be suspended. Dog fighting, fighting etc are disgusting. However, just being indicted is not enough.

Simply saying the NFL can do what it wants is ridiculous as the NFLPA would slap a grievance on the NFL faster than anything and rightfully so in my view.Then why hasn't the NFLPA brought a single grievance against the League so far this offseason despite the numerous punishments handed out them to their players, some of whom who were facing less than an indictment.

[HardHittin'Witten]

Well, Petrino will be in prime position to draft his boy, Brian Brohm. +

[sago1]

Falcons worst nightmare has come true and just a week or so before TC is due to open. Don't you think this indictment will be the major discussion within the lockerroom. All of Vick's endorsements are going down the drain and the sale of Vick Tshirts are going to take a serious hit. Wonder when Vick will address the meeting and claim he not involved and is being prosecuted because he's a celebrity or race or whatever.

[AbeBeta]

If he is found guilty, then of course he deserves to be suspended. Dog fighting, fighting etc are disgusting. However, just being indicted is not enough.

Simply saying the NFL can do what it wants is ridiculous as the NFLPA would slap a grievance on the NFL faster than anything and rightfully so in my view.

Again -- this issue is about hurting the league's image -- the league didn't give a damn about DUIs and stuff like that until they started to become big news -- now "NFL player arrested" is huge news -- and that's something that the league wants to address.

The league isn't getting tougher because there is an increase in players doing bad stuff -- football is a rough sports and it attracts lots of punks. There is, however, now much more coverage of players doing bad stuff (thanks to sites like the smoking gun and pft) and that is what drives the suspensions.

You get suspended for hurting the league's image, plain and simple. It is all about $. Vick is now in a pretty "elite" class for bringing bad press on the league.

[Roughneck]

A friend of mine just sent this email out to our group. He's been an attorney for over 30 years and knows his stuff. Some of this was already touched upon by Cobra:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wholeheartedly agree that an indictment is no evidence of guilt, and that Vick is, in the eyes of the criminal justice system, innocent until proven guilty. With that obvious disclaimer, however, I will share with you my experience with federal prosecutors.

In state court, a defendant generally resigns himself to an indictment because the prosecutor has wide latitude to indict and much of the investigation is done post-indictment. Therefore, a defense lawyer doesn't really get to work defending the case and trying to get it disposed of until after the indictment goes down. Federal prosecutors are very different. The United States Attorney does not indict unless he (1) has already done 99% of his investigation and obtained 99% of the evidence he will use at trial, and (2) is convinced that the evidence he has obtained against the defendant will result in a conviction. As a result, in the federal system, the defense lawyer's efforts are largely geared towards preventing an indictment, since once an indictment is obtained the die is cast and your guy is going to federal-pound-you-in-the-***-prison.

And this indictment (which I pulled down from the Court's website) shows that to be the case here. The indictment identifies four "Cooperating Witness[es]." The first Cooperating Witness (referred to as CW#1 in the indictment) was the guy from whom Vick purchased four pit bulls in early 2002. (Indict at Para. 9.) In February 2002, Vick "rolled" or "tested" some of his pit bulls agaisnt other dogs owned by CW#1 to determine how well the dog fought. It is implied that CW#1 would be able to testify as to the disposal of underperforming dogs.

The second Cooperating Witness ("CW#2") observed Vick at two separate dog fights in June 2002. (Indict. at Para. 47.) At that fight, CW#2 agreed to a fight between his dogs and "Bad Newz Kennels'" (i.e., the outfit co-owned by Vick) dogs. Vick was present at the March 2003 fight between his dog and CW#2's. Vick's dog lost, and after consultation with Vick, Vick's coconspirator "executed the losing dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal." (Indict. at Para. 53.)

The third Cooperating Witness ("CW#3"), had a dog fight against Vick's in Fall 2003. (Indict. at Para. 67.) "During the fight, CW#3 was criticized by a person unknown to the Grand Jury from "Bad Newz Kennels" for CW#3's having yelled out VICK's name in front of the crowd during the dog fight." (Indict. at Para. 68.)

This brings us to Cooperating Witness #4 ("CW#4"), who owned a female pit bull named Trouble against one of Vick's dogs. Vick's dog lost, and Vick personally paid CW#4 the purse money of approximately $7,000. (Indict. at Para. 76.)

That's four witnesses--all of whom can put Vick at the scene of the dog fights and all of whom can testify to his active participation in said fights. And that's only the ones that the US Attorney feels confident enough to put in the Indictment--who knows how many other Cooperating Witnesses may be out there.

Personally, I suspect one of Vick's co-defendants will become CW#5 before the trial is done.

Yes, yes--Vick is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. But for our purposes here, the ****er's going down.

[eduncan22]

Falcons worst nightmare has come true and just a week or so before TC is due to open. Don't you think this indictment will be the major discussion within the lockerroom. All of Vick's endorsements are going down the drain and the sale of Vick Tshirts are going to take a serious hit. Wonder when Vick will address the meeting and claim he not involved and is being prosecuted because he's a celebrity or race or whatever.

It won't help him.

Federal Judges are very strict.

This guy is in big time trouble.

[gbrittain]

Coach Killa

Dog Killa

Team Killa

I hope this doesn't screw up our #1 pick from Cleveland.

They will be drafting a QB if they do.:)

[Chocolate Lab]

Does anyone here think Poindexter is surprised at what the Feds found? :cool:

And I wonder if anyone has asked Portis his erudite opinion now? :cool:

[gbrittain]

Of course it's horrible, dogs are part of the family so we are grossed out by it. However, one could say that calf roping etc is equally as grotesque, only difference is some lawmaker has made fighting and dog fighting illegal whereas one can watch calf roping etc legally.

Calf roping equally as grotesque as dog fighting?

One could say a lot of things and still be very wrong.

For example...Redskins fans are very knowledgeable and ES is very objective. See, I said it, but it is wrong.

[fortdick]

Can I get a hat tip for being first to suggest the RICO angle? Theogt? Peplaw? Anyone?

[jobberone]

its his own fault...he's been slamming him down everyone's throat for years, and doing everything he can to keep all of Vick's garbage under the rug...he gave him a ridiculous contract, ran off the only coach who has ever done anything positive on the field for the loser, hired another college coach and vastly overpaid to egt im, then proclaimed that the coach would decide who the QB would be, followed that up by promptly trading away the competition at QB before said coach ever saw him take one snap on the field...

Blank deserves whatever he gets

David

I agree with all of this esp the print in bold.

yeah ok...you keep telling yourself that..."Vick is innocent"..."Vick is innocent"

please...the guys been in this junk up to his neck for years...he's been in other bad stuff and he hangs out with some huge thugs...trouble finds trouble makers

David

He is innocent until proven guilty. However, we have gone beyond the realm of 'they' say this or that. This has always been serious esp in light of the animal abuse. But although I won't pass judgment until he's found guilty, I think he is in serious caca. And I hope if he's found guilty he does pay for it. Hurting dogs is some seriously screwed up stuff.

:mad:

That is so beyond f'ed up that it is to the point of nauseating.

That's what I wanted to say.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

So you have no problem with guys on horses chasing calves, throwing ropes around their necks, throwing them to the ground and tieing up their legs for sport?

The NFL's image isn't really hurt because most people don't give a crap what kind of thugs play on their teams as long as they are talented thugs. When Irvin was throwing cocaine parties witih ho's, most of us didn't care because he was the second best receiver in the NFL.

If Vick played for the Cowboys, the moral majority wouldn't be so quick to suspend him before a hearing.

[03EBZ06]

A friend of mine just sent this email out to our group. He's been an attorney for over 30 years and knows his stuff. Some of this was already touched upon by Cobra:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wholeheartedly agree that an indictment is no evidence of guilt, and that Vick is, in the eyes of the criminal justice system, innocent until proven guilty. With that obvious disclaimer, however, I will share with you my experience with federal prosecutors.

In state court, a defendant generally resigns himself to an indictment because the prosecutor has wide latitude to indict and much of the investigation is done post-indictment. Therefore, a defense lawyer doesn't really get to work defending the case and trying to get it disposed of until after the indictment goes down. Federal prosecutors are very different. The United States Attorney does not indict unless he (1) has already done 99% of his investigation and obtained 99% of the evidence he will use at trial, and (2) is convinced that the evidence he has obtained against the defendant will result in a conviction. As a result, in the federal system, the defense lawyer's efforts are largely geared towards preventing an indictment, since once an indictment is obtained the die is cast and your guy is going to federal-pound-you-in-the-***-prison.

And this indictment (which I pulled down from the Court's website) shows that to be the case here. The indictment identifies four "Cooperating Witness[es]." The first Cooperating Witness (referred to as CW#1 in the indictment) was the guy from whom Vick purchased four pit bulls in early 2002. (Indict at Para. 9.) In February 2002, Vick "rolled" or "tested" some of his pit bulls agaisnt other dogs owned by CW#1 to determine how well the dog fought. It is implied that CW#1 would be able to testify as to the disposal of underperforming dogs.

The second Cooperating Witness ("CW#2") observed Vick at two separate dog fights in June 2002. (Indict. at Para. 47.) At that fight, CW#2 agreed to a fight between his dogs and "Bad Newz Kennels'" (i.e., the outfit co-owned by Vick) dogs. Vick was present at the March 2003 fight between his dog and CW#2's. Vick's dog lost, and after consultation with Vick, Vick's coconspirator "executed the losing dog by wetting the dog down with water and electrocuting the animal." (Indict. at Para. 53.)

The third Cooperating Witness ("CW#3"), had a dog fight against Vick's in Fall 2003. (Indict. at Para. 67.) "During the fight, CW#3 was criticized by a person unknown to the Grand Jury from "Bad Newz Kennels" for CW#3's having yelled out VICK's name in front of the crowd during the dog fight." (Indict. at Para. 68.)

This brings us to Cooperating Witness #4 ("CW#4"), who owned a female pit bull named Trouble against one of Vick's dogs. Vick's dog lost, and Vick personally paid CW#4 the purse money of approximately $7,000. (Indict. at Para. 76.)

That's four witnesses--all of whom can put Vick at the scene of the dog fights and all of whom can testify to his active participation in said fights. And that's only the ones that the US Attorney feels confident enough to put in the Indictment--who knows how many other Cooperating Witnesses may be out there.

Personally, I suspect one of Vick's co-defendants will become CW#5 before the trial is done.

Yes, yes--Vick is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. But for our purposes here, the ****er's going down.
Thanks for sharing this email, makes it much easier to understand the indictment. Certainly doesn't look good for Vick but we'll see how it all ends up.

[Seven]

So you have no problem with guys on horses chasing calves, throwing ropes around their necks, throwing them to the ground and tieing up their legs for sport?

The NFL's image isn't really hurt because most people don't give a crap what kind of thugs play on their teams as long as they are talented thugs. When Irvin was throwing cocaine parties witih ho's, most of us didn't care because he was the second best receiver in the NFL.

If Vick played for the Cowboys, the moral majority wouldn't be so quick to suspend him before a hearing.

Please. Don't throw anything related to the Cowboys, players or fan to try and make a very futile point. Don't be so fast to judge what we did or did not do with the Irvin situation. Weak.

Roping calves?...........:lmao2: Weak + 2, dude.

[03EBZ06]

Does anyone here think Poindexter is surprised at what the Feds found? :cool:

And I wonder if anyone has asked Portis his erudite opinion now? :cool:
I have a feeling that incompetent fool won't have that job too long. Perhaps he too is involved in some way, his actions are very suspicious

[ABQCOWBOY]

It'll take more than an indictment for him to miss any games this year. This is his first strike, correct? Or did he have previous scrapes with the law? He doesn't appear to be a serial offender like his little brother.


I suspect that the Feds have been looking at Vick for some time now. They actually tried to get him on this same thing in Georgia, I think it was, two years ago but they couldn't indict. I don't think this is something they just happened upon these past few months. I think they've been building a case for this for some time. I think the NFL new about this and I think that's why both commisionars have spoken with Vick on serveral occasions. No proof but this is what I think.

[gbrittain]

So you have no problem with guys on horses chasing calves, throwing ropes around their necks, throwing them to the ground and tieing up their legs for sport?

The NFL's image isn't really hurt because most people don't give a crap what kind of thugs play on their teams as long as they are talented thugs. When Irvin was throwing cocaine parties witih ho's, most of us didn't care because he was the second best receiver in the NFL.

If Vick played for the Cowboys, the moral majority wouldn't be so quick to suspend him before a hearing.

First of all, no I do not have a problem with it. For the sake of argument lets say I do.

It still does not mean that the two sins are equal. Watch a calf roping event and then watch to dogs fight to death or near death and tell me they are equal on the grotesque scale.

I have a problem with someone smashing a mail box in for fun. I have a problem with someone buring a house down for fun.

Which one is worse and deserves the more severe penalty and is deserving of more outrage?

[Roughneck]

So you have no problem with guys on horses chasing calves, throwing ropes around their necks, throwing them to the ground and tieing up their legs for sport?Nowhere in that sentence did I see you mention the killing of calves through fighting each other or the use of strangulation, drowning, or electrocution, so no, the two still aren't anything alike. If Vick played for the Cowboys, the moral majority wouldn't be so quick to suspend him before a hearing.I've read some BS on this site before but damn, that one takes the cake. If you honestly believe that the majority of fans on this site wouldn't want Vick not only suspended but completely kicked off of the team, then you would be in for a serious reality check.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Please, as Cowboy fans, we put up with a ton from our players in the 1990s it isn't even funny. We just turned the other cheek.

As for the points about electrocuting the dogs, having them fight to the death, at this point they are just allegations and need to be proven.

[Seven]

Please, as Cowboy fans, we put up with a ton from our players in the 1990s it isn't even funny. We just turned the other cheek.

As for the points about electrocuting the dogs, having them fight to the death, at this point they are just allegations and need to be proven.

So ya think they bought the dogs to bring 'em home to bury? Is that some form of a foreign delicacy? They dig 'em up later and BBQ 'em?

[ABQCOWBOY]

So ya think they bought the dogs to bring 'em home to bury? Is that some form of a foreign delicacy? They dig 'em up later and BBQ 'em?


A sort of Kim Chee thing? I don't know, I don't think it's going to go over well but I thought there would be no way anybody would ever want to eat bean sprouts so, you know.....

[gbrittain]

Please, as Cowboy fans, we put up with a ton from our players in the 1990s it isn't even funny. We just turned the other cheek.

As for the points about electrocuting the dogs, having them fight to the death, at this point they are just allegations and need to be proven.

That is right, typically the other dog taps out. Never fatal.

Actually, from my understanding for the most part the dogs do not get killed by other dogs. The dogs get maimed beyond repair and must be killed by the owner.

Read This: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19028969/site/newsweek/

[Seven]

A sort of Kim Chee thing? I don't know, I don't think it's going to go over well but I thought there would be no way anybody would ever want to eat bean sprouts so, you know.....

Yeah, Kim Chee. I had a Korean neighbor that used to do that. Seen her out there diggin' up jars of stuff they'd later eat.

Hey, Maybe tha could be Vicks angle. "Feds ruin BBQ intended for handicapped children."

BTW....Just what's wrong with bean sprouts? :)

[ABQCOWBOY]

Yeah, Kim Chee. I had a Korean neighbor that used to do that. Seen her out there diggin' up jars of stuff they'd later eat.

Hey, Maybe tha could be Vicks angle. "Feds ruin BBQ intended for handicapped children."

Well, if what we are hearing is anywhere close to accurate, that might be about the best defence he can muster.

[Seven]

Well, if what we are hearing is anywhere close to accurate, that might be about the best defence he can muster.
Poindexter owes me ten bucks then........http://cowboyszone.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

[REDVOLUTION]

Well.... its early....

If I remember correctly... there was a famous athlete that beat his case when it seemed like there was no way he could.... his name slips my mind :rolleyes:

Money and Defense team = getting off

[ABQCOWBOY]

Well.... its early....

If I remember correctly... there was a famous athlete that beat his case when it seemed like there was no way he could.... his name slips my mind :rolleyes:

Money and Defense team = getting off

This is Federal. His was not. It's a different ball game but your point is taken.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Poindexter owes me ten bucks then........http://cowboyszone.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fuzzy is probably rolling over about now.

[ilovejerry]

What a scum bag, greedy puke ! I hope they throw the book at him if its true. Why would he get involved with anyone who was doing this sort of thing, Let that be a lesson for the rest of these guys ( athletes ) who surround themselves with there posse or family or whatever, Your lay down with dogs you get fleas. ( pun intended ).
No sympathy for him this is a sickening act, Yeah Thats right I'm a card caring member Of PETA "So what !!" :)

[silverbear]

This calls for an emergency meeting of the DVS.

Where's our fearless Lord Muckity when you need him?

Getting the tar nice and hot...

OK, actually, the Lord High Muckety-Muck was sleeping... but the wood is now being gathered for the bonfire...

[bigE79]

Does anyone here think Poindexter is surprised at what the Feds found? :cool:

And I wonder if anyone has asked Portis his erudite opinion now? :cool::hammer: maybe portis will take over for vick. since he did say vick did nothing wrong he would fit right in

[Faerluna]

Not that fighting to the death isn't bad enough... But how do they electrocute these dogs that don't test well?

Not sure I want to know -- but that just seems like an unusually inhumane and cruel way to do away with them. :mad: :mad: :mad:

I think the humanity line is already pretty blurry for Michael Vick. They don't think twice about it, I guarantee.

[REDVOLUTION]

This is Federal. His was not. It's a different ball game but your point is taken.


Gotcha!.... but.... the other one was double "human" murder and this is pet murder and abuse.... does that favor him in comparison?

[03EBZ06]

So these dogs were killed because they underperformed? So what does that mean for him and his play on the football field?

[dbair1967]

So you have no problem with guys on horses chasing calves, throwing ropes around their necks, throwing them to the ground and tieing up their legs for sport?

The NFL's image isn't really hurt because most people don't give a crap what kind of thugs play on their teams as long as they are talented thugs. When Irvin was throwing cocaine parties witih ho's, most of us didn't care because he was the second best receiver in the NFL.

If Vick played for the Cowboys, the moral majority wouldn't be so quick to suspend him before a hearing.

If Vick were a Cowboy, I'd cheer for the interceptions

I cant stand the guy...he's one of those people I can never cheer fo...right up there with the OJ's, Leonard Little's, Ray Lewis' and Pac Trash

David

[dbair1967]

So you have no problem with guys on horses chasing calves, throwing ropes around their necks, throwing them to the ground and tieing up their legs for sport?

.

I just have to ask, but honestly are you really this stupid?

Seriously, anyone that cant see the difference between rodeo and dogs that are trained and forced to bite each other to the death needs serious mental help

David

[ABQCOWBOY]

Gotcha!.... but.... the other one was double "human" murder and this is pet murder and abuse.... does that favor him in comparison?

No, I don't think it does. I just think that we're not dealing with the local constables, so to speak. I honestly believe that the Feds already have there case and it's probably solid. Not kidding when I say they tried to get Vick 2 years ago and didn't get him. There has been at least one Senator that has been trying to get Vick for some time.

Anthing can happen but I'd bet good money that they got there stuff together on this one. JMO

[ABQCOWBOY]

So these dogs were killed because they underperformed? So what does that mean for him and his play on the football field?


Doah! :o:

[ConcordCowboy]

The guy's a POS...always has been and always will be.

Giving a girl Herpes and then fighting dogs to the death.

Total scum.

Hope they get him big time.

[bbgun]

I always root for the bull.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/6849/bullgore1fullom1.jpg

[ConcordCowboy]

This calls for an emergency meeting of the DVS.


The meeting is now in session.

All in favor of getting that POS some jail time like he deserves say Aye!

AYE!

Meeting adjourned.

[ConcordCowboy]

I always root for the bull.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/6849/bullgore1fullom1.jpg

Me too!

Those two brothers getting gored at the same time was priceless.

[REDVOLUTION]

No, I don't think it does. I just think that we're not dealing with the local constables, so to speak. I honestly believe that the Feds already have there case and it's probably solid. Not kidding when I say they tried to get Vick 2 years ago and didn't get him. There has been at least one Senator that has been trying to get Vick for some time.

Anthing can happen but I'd bet good money that they got there stuff together on this one. JMO


Again... thanks for the info.... but... nowadays you just never know how things turn out....(the way they should and the way they do is always mindboggling)

[peplaw06]

Can I get a hat tip for being first to suggest the RICO angle? Theogt? Peplaw? Anyone?I gotcha fort... good call.

I'm glad Cobra and the other attorney in Roughneck's post have given their take on the indictment. Very informational. It sounds like everything I expected from a federal prosecutor... very meticulous and detailed. The RICO stuff is way over my head. I knew that was what they would get mob bosses on, but didn't know it could reach this far.

When the feds get in on it, you're in trouble. We saw this coming when they started investigating, taking over for Poindexter. I bet you right now, Vick is wishing Poindexter would have done some real investigative work... With the feds involved, he probably won't get as favorable of a deal, and odds are they're not going to work around his schedule at his convenience.

I'll be interested to see what Goodell does. Is he going to wait until the disposition of this case, or act quickly?

[peplaw06]

I always root for the bull.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/6849/bullgore1fullom1.jpg...ouch...

[dalboy]

on espn news right now is a eye witness saying that he personally had his dog fight his and that vick bet abiut $5,000 on his dog.

[Kilyin]

I just have to ask, but honestly are you really this stupid?


I'm afraid he really is. If there was ever any doubt, this thread destroyed it.

[bbgun]

I wonder what Vick's legal fees will amount to when this is all said and done. Probably $1M+.

[tnbk]

you guys are crazy.....Vick didn't do anything.

it was all Ron Mexico's fault.

[03EBZ06]

I always root for the bull.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/6849/bullgore1fullom1.jpg
Ouch, that's gonna leave a mark.

[bbgun]

Ouch, that's gonna leave a mark.

And an infection.

[03EBZ06]

I wonder what Vick's legal fees will amount to when this is all said and done. Probably $1M+.
If he assembles a dream team like OJ, then it's going to be several millions, but then with his signing bonus, it shouldn't be an issue for him.

[REDVOLUTION]

I wonder what Vick's legal fees will amount to when this is all said and done. Probably $1M+.

I think much more...

[03EBZ06]

A friend of mine who works at legal department at our company said tonight that the Feds have a ~96% conviction rate, can some one confirm this?

If this is true, it doesn't bode well for Vick.

[HardHittin'Witten]

A friend of mine who works at legal department at our company said tonight that the Feds have a ~96% conviction rate, can some one confirm this?

If this is true, it doesn't bode well for Vick.

I heard on the radio that the Feds have a 98% conviction rate, but I have no way of backing it up. I tried looking it up, but couldn't find anything.

[DLCassidy]

As for the points about electrocuting the dogs, having them fight to the death, at this point they are just allegations and need to be proven.

Are you under the impression dogs wear muzzles when they fight or maybe they determine a winner when one dog pins the other for a count of three?:laugh1:

But calf roping offends you?:laugh1:

[eduncan22]

A friend of mine who works at legal department at our company said tonight that the Feds have a ~96% conviction rate, can some one confirm this?

If this is true, it doesn't bode well for Vick.

This is true.

Its at least 96.

Where I work, its 99.99.

Vick is going to jail.

[Alexander]

So these dogs were killed because they underperformed? So what does that mean for him and his play on the football field?

:laugh2:

[Alexander]

I heard on the radio that the Feds have a 98% conviction rate, but I have no way of backing it up. I tried looking it up, but couldn't find anything.

In most instances, their conviction rates are very high.

98% is pretty high, but overall I would not be shocked if it ranged from 85-90 percent.

[silverbear]

Lot of evidence there -- his house, tons of evidence of fighting. This may not end well for him -- he may avoid jail time but he's going to get nailed by the league and his agent is probably receiving numerous faxes right now from sponsors who no longer need Vick's services.


The most compelling quotes I've seen this evening have come from John Goodwin, the lead investigator of dog fighting for the Humane Society of the United States...

"Some of the grisly details in these filings shocked even me, and I'm a person who faces this stuff every day," he said. "I was surprised to see that they were killing dogs by hanging them and one dog was killed by slamming it to the ground. Those are extremely violent methods of execution -- they're unnecessary and just sick."

"That indictment is brutal," said John Goodwin, the lead investigator from the Humane Society. "The details in there are amazing. That's much stronger than most of the cases I've seen."

From what I've read of this indictment so far, the details ARE amazing... it's clear that they have a source or sources from inside the operation giving them the inside story... others have commented in this thread about how the government has at least four confidential witnesses, and I'll bet one of them is the undercover operative that members of the Virginia Animal Fighting Task Force talked about, the guy who has testified in five other dog fighting cases in the Old Dominion, and helped the state secure convictions in all five...

Naturally, the defense will try to tarnish the credibility of the other witnesses, but they have some problems in that area... first off, although some of them are undoubtedly testifying to save their own backsides, to get lesser sentences or even immunity, there are FOUR of them, and if they're all telling the same story, that will definitely affect any jury... then there's the matter that some of their inside info turned out to be VERY accurate (the killing of those dogs after they tried them out in test matches, and the subsequent discovery of exactly that many canine corpses when the Feds executed that last search warrant)... so, you've got multiple witnesses, all telling pretty close to the same story, and you've got specific aspects of their testimony that has proved to be quite accurate...

Most damning of all, I think, will be if I'm right about one of those confidential witnesses being the undercover operative who has been instrumental in securing other convictions on dogfighting in Virginia... this would be a guy who would NOT be testifying to save his own butt...

I don't think he's gonna wind up avoiding jail time at all... I find myself hoping that the forum lawyers are right, and that there is a RICO case to be made against him... I was profoundly disgusted by this whole mess, but got even more disgusted when I read the part about killing the one dog by slamming him to the ground... that goes beyond cruelty, into the realm of sadism; if they had to kill the dog, a .22 behind the ear would have gotten the job done, without being so sadistic...

I say fry the bastidge...

[silverbear]

It'll take more than an indictment for him to miss any games this year. This is his first strike, correct? Or did he have previous scrapes with the law? He doesn't appear to be a serial offender like his little brother.

I dunno, bb, Jason Cole from Yahoo seems to think that Goodell will suspend Vick in the very near future:

Vick is expected to be suspended by NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell after news broke Tuesday evening that Vick was indicted by federal authorities in connection with dog fighting in Virginia. The indictment followed a three-month investigation.

While Goodell was not reached for comment, two sources said the commissioner has been monitoring the Vick case since April, when investigators initially found evidence of dog fighting at a home Vick owned in Smithfield.


"Where (Vick) is in the most trouble is that he lied to the commissioner," a league source said. "He told (Goodell) in April that he didn't know anything about this. The commissioner gave (Vick) every chance to come clean, be straight about what was going on. Instead, he just kept denying it."

Other NFL teams are eager to see how Goodell will react to the news on Vick. A Titans source said in May that Tennessee management was watchful of how Vick might be treated in relation to how Jones was punished.

"There's a lot riding on this one," a league source said. "Perception is really important right now for the entire league and (Goodell) has set the bar pretty high. I think the one thing going for (Goodell) if he's going to suspend Vick is that he gave Vick a chance to tell the truth."

Now, I'm not holding Cole up as the definitive source on all things NFL-related, but his arguments make some sense to me... with the way Goodell has been doling out suspensions this offseason, he pretty much HAS to act aggressively...

[silverbear]

They have Harrington. Culpepper is a BUST. Always has been, always will be.

Dolphins couldn't even get a trade for the guy. Cut him and ate the millions.

The other portions of your post is spot on.

The biggest reason they couldn't get a trade for Culpepper is he had a no-trade clause in his contract, and made it known that he wouldn't accept any trade... he forced his release, because he wanted to be able to pick and choose which team he went to...

Beyond that, I think it's pretty ridiculous to label Culpepper a "BUST", when he has a career quarterback rating of 90.8, a 64.2 per cent completion rate, a 7.7 yards per attempt averaged, and 137 career TDs to 89 career ints...

All of these are very good numbers, actually... for sure, they're better numbers than Joey Harrington ever put up... we're talking a career 68.2 quarterback rating, a 55.2 completion percentage, a 5.4 yards per attempt average, and 72 TDs to 77 ints...

Without being mad at you, or feeling an urge to insult you, anybody who doesn't recognize that Culpepper would be a large upgrade over Joey Harrington really doesn't know much about football in general, or either player in particular...

Indeed, I'd personally be shickled titless if the Boys were to go out and sign Culpepper (though he probably wouldn't be interested in being a backup to Tony Romo)... I'd sure feel a lot better if he was waiting in the wings, rather than Brad Johnson...

[silverbear]

So will the activist groups. Expect picket lines at Falcons games until the Commissioner reacts. They may not be effective, but they will happen.

You just KNOW that if Vick is not suspended come opening day, every time he steps on the field, the public address system will be playing "Who Let the Dogs Out"...

Even in Hotlanta... LOL...

[silverbear]

And the apologist's that went with it?:lmao2:

Hey, the Draconian Vigilante Squad stands vindicated... we're not the ones hiding from this latest revelation, LOL...

[Royal Laegotti]

I always root for the bull.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/6849/bullgore1fullom1.jpg






:puke: :ralph: :puke: :ralph:

[silverbear]

In all fairness, it is just an indictment, in no way is it a finding of guilt.

This is true...

OTOH, the Feds took their time preparing this case, and they have to be aware of the added difficulty involved in securing a conviction when the defendant is a "celebrity"... you have to figure they wouldn't be eager to make fools of themselves by letting such a celebrity beat them in court, which leads one to conclude that they feel they have a REAL strong case...

Reading the indictment reinforces that opinion, it is quite specific...

[silverbear]

I find the defecadent Michael Vick guilty as indicted!

"Defecadent"... nice turn of phrase there... :bow:

[silverbear]

This calls for an emergency meeting of the DVS.

Where's our fearless Lord Muckity when you need him?

Right now, he's laughin' his ample backside off, and wondering where all the Vick defenders are...

[silverbear]

Goodie has free reign on this one - it isn't like someone got hit with a DUI -- we can be reasonably sure that there is no comparison case here nor will there likely ever be one.

And lay off the Sharpton biz - he's got nothing to do with this - you are just trying to start something.

Well, it ain't like Reverend Al doesn't have a history of standing up for black people who ultimately turn out to not be innocent, presumably for no better reason than they are black... Tawana Brawley ring a bell with you??

Bluntly, he's a media whore, always looking for a chance to rail away in front of the cameras... he's not always wrong, mind you, but he has shown a tendency in the past to jump into these things without bothering to find out the truth of the situation for himself...

Sharpton is a demagogue, in the worst sense of the word...

[silverbear]

I wonder how Poindexter is going to be involved in all this mess? Isn't he the one that did not want the search warrent to take place because of "the wording" or something like that?

:confused:

Poindexter is watching his career as a prosecutor go up in flames... he is now regarded as a joke around the country...

From where I sit, if this whole sordid spectacle results in him being removed from his office, at least some good will have come from it... as far as I'm concerned, he's been acting to protect Vick right from the start...

[silverbear]

they should do whats right regardless...Vick is an embarrassment to the league and a disgrace...people who take part in dogfighting are just about the lowest forms of life

Well, maybe they're not QUITE as bad as child molesters, but they are pretty far down the evolutionary scale...

Divine justice would be to sentence him to be chained to a buried car axle for the term of his incarceration...

[silverbear]

Just something you should note here. For instance, look at this page (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick16.html). Paragraph 76. Notice the phrase "CW #4"? That means cooperating witness #4. That means for the indictment they had at least 4 cooperating witnesses. And if this goes to trial, I suspect that one or more of the other three will cooperate against Vick since he was the money man and therefore the big target. This jacks up the success rate of this kind of prosecution from the 95% rate to probably something like the 99.5% rate.

He is in some serious deep poop.

Good stuff, cobra... thanks for taking the time to read the indictment, and give us some background on it...

[HardHittin'Witten]

Good stuff, cobra... thanks for taking the time to read the indictment, and give us some background on it...

Yeah, that :bastid:needs to go down for this.

[silverbear]

If he is found guilty, then of course he deserves to be suspended.

If he's found guilty, he'll go to jail... won't have to worry about the NFL suspending him...

The good news is, his reputation, and thus his ability to earn money off the field, is in the toilet... whether or not he's convicted, he's gonna feel this in his wallet...

[silverbear]

Of course it's horrible, dogs are part of the family so we are grossed out by it. However, one could say that calf roping etc is equally as grotesque, only difference is some lawmaker has made fighting and dog fighting illegal whereas one can watch calf roping etc legally.

Those calves never die, indeed it's rare that they're even injured... they get roped, then they get set free...

I'm not saying it isn't kinda cruel, but it falls FAR short of the kind of cruelty inherent to dog fighting... a better example would have been bull fighting...

[HardHittin'Witten]

Those calves never die, indeed it's rare that they're even injured... they get roped, then they get set free...

I'm not saying it isn't kinda cruel, but it falls FAR short of the kind of cruelty inherent to dog fighting... a better example would have been bull fighting...

Calf roping is like a little girl playing with Barbie dolls compared to this.

[silverbear]

So you have no problem with guys on horses chasing calves, throwing ropes around their necks, throwing them to the ground and tieing up their legs for sport?

It ain't NEAR as bad as setting two dogs to fight each other to the death... indeed, it's not much worse than what circus trainers do to lions and tigers and such...

If Vick played for the Cowboys, the moral majority wouldn't be so quick to suspend him before a hearing.

If any Cowboys player is involved in dog fighting, I'll be the first to condemn him...

And frankly, those who continue to try to defend Vick's contemptible behavior by comparing to things like rodeos aren't a whole lot better than Vick is... anybody with a lick of decency HAS to stand up and say "this is wrong"...

[silverbear]

As for the points about electrocuting the dogs, having them fight to the death, at this point they are just allegations and need to be proven.

But YOU were the one trying to equate dog fighting to calf roping... now that we've called you on that, you change your story...

When dog fighting goes on, the loser almost always winds up dead... period...

[silverbear]

So these dogs were killed because they underperformed? So what does that mean for him and his play on the football field?

Post of the day... :bow:

[silverbear]

The meeting is now in session.

All in favor of getting that POS some jail time like he deserves say Aye!

AYE!

Meeting adjourned.


Not so fast, CC, this looks like a GREAT opportunity for a membership drive... we need more members of the DVS...

[silverbear]

I wonder what Vick's legal fees will amount to when this is all said and done. Probably $1M+.

You reckon we should take up a collection to help the poor guy out, or will Uncle Arthur take care of his bills?? :confused:

[silverbear]

Calf roping is like a little girl playing with Barbie dolls compared to this.

I've been to a dozen rodeos in my life, the worst thing I ever saw was a calf suffering a broken leg... saddle bronc or bull riding is much crueler, IMO, but at least the animals in those competitions can get a little payback from time to time...

[Big Dakota]

Just something you should note here. For instance, look at this page (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick16.html). Paragraph 76. Notice the phrase "CW #4"? That means cooperating witness #4. That means for the indictment they had at least 4 cooperating witnesses. And if this goes to trial, I suspect that one or more of the other three will cooperate against Vick since he was the money man and therefore the big target. This jacks up the success rate of this kind of prosecution from the 95% rate to probably something like the 99.5% rate.

He is in some serious deep poop.


I knew the Feds success rate was between 95% and 96%, but 99.5 means he'll have to cop a plea. What do you suspect they would offer him?

[CanadianCowboysFan]

We had to stop calf roping up here at a local rodeo because a couple of them died this year.

In the end, it will be hard to convict Vick because no one can place him at the scene for the fights. He has plausible deniability just like no one could say Ray Lewis shot anyone.

[Big Dakota]

I just have to ask, but honestly are you really this stupid?

Seriously, anyone that cant see the difference between rodeo and dogs that are trained and forced to bite each other to the death needs serious mental help

David

Yes, he is!!!!!!!!!!!

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Yes, he is!!!!!!!!!!!

I keep forgetting you are employed as a member of the faculty of Harvard.

[Big Dakota]

Not so fast, CC, this looks like a GREAT opportunity for a membership drive... we need more members of the DVS...


Count me in:)

[silverbear]

We had to stop calf roping up here at a local rodeo because a couple of them died this year.

In the end, it will be hard to convict Vick because no one can place him at the scene for the fights. He has plausible deniability just like no one could say Ray Lewis shot anyone.

Actually, the indictment says the Feds have a coupla people who will definitely place him on the scene for the fights... one guy annoyed one of Vick's crew by hollering out Vick's name during the course of a fight, the other guy will testify to collecting 23 grand from Vick PERSONALLY after his dog beat one of Michael's...

You might want to familiarize yourself with the facts before you go trying to defend the guy...

[silverbear]

Count me in:)

Welcome the newest, bestest club on the internet... you are now allowed to flaunt your membership in the DVS in your sig, if you like... :)

[Sarge]

Easy folks - this scumbag loser is innocent until proven guilty.

[Alexander]

Easy folks - this scumbag loser is innocent until proven guilty.

Technically correct, but as has been pointed out, federal prosecutors rarely bring cases like this to light unless they are very squared away.

This is not your typical case.

[jman]

Could be more then that. There trying to get him on RICO. That's big time.

Is that Ron Mexico's new best freind in prison...LOL

[03EBZ06]

A grand jury indicted Atlanta Falcons (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=atl)' quarterback Michael Vick (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5448) on Tuesday, which at least partially answers one question that has lingered since the news first broke about an alleged dogfighting operation on property owned by Vick in Virginia: Was Vick involved? Obviously, we know now that investigators believe he was.

There are plenty of football-related issues still to be resolved about Vick's future with the Falcons and the NFL, but those might be the least of his concerns right now. Questions about his legal future abound at the moment. Here are some answers.

What do these federal charges mean for Michael Vick?

Vick is in real trouble. He is up against the might and majesty of the U.S. government with all of its agents, all of its investigative techniques, and all of its skilled prosecutors. If he has any doubts about the power and skill of the forces arrayed against him, he can call Scooter Libby, former chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, or he can call Lord Conrad Black, the disgraced media mogul now facing time in a federal penitentiary. If he still isn't convinced, he can call Jeff Skilling, the zillionaire Enron CEO who is now residing in a federal pen. All three of them hired brilliant (and expensive) lawyers. All three thought they could explain their way out from under federal charges. And all three were convicted. Vick can, and probably will, hire some of America's best defense lawyers, but they will face a serious battle.

Would Vick be sent to jail if he is convicted?

Yes. It's hard to imagine any other outcome. The charges are serious, and the evidence against Vick presented at trial will be nasty. The government's case includes evidence that Vick and his cohorts "tested" pit bulls for ferocity. If the dogs failed the test, the indictment charges, they were executed by hanging or drowning. In one case, with Vick present, the indictment says a dog was slammed to the ground until it was dead. In another incident, a dog was soaked with a hose and then electrocuted. Those aren't the sort of transgressions that lead to probation and community service. It's the kind of behavior that results in punishment, and the punishment will be jail time.

What is the next step for Vick?

Vick will now watch to see which of his three co-defendants will be the first to make a deal with federal prosecutors. Each of them will think seriously about turning on Vick and offering testimony against him in return for less time in jail. Vick obviously is the prime target of the government effort. Prosecutors and agents will be willing to talk with his co-defendants about a deal if they are willing to help prove the case against Vick. The government indictment discloses four witnesses who have already agreed to testify against him. If all three of of his co-defendants join these four witnesses against Vick, he and his lawyers might suggest that he, too, should talk to the government about a deal that would minimize his time in jail.

Vick is charged with "conspiracy" and violations of the "Travel Act." What does that mean?

The conspiracy charge will make things extra difficult for Vick and his lawyers. Under federal laws, the conspiracy charge allows federal prosecutors to link Vick to things that occurred even if he was not present. If the prosecutors can connect the four defendants, then crimes committed by one of them can be used to add to the evidence against the others. It's a tricky legal procedure that prosecutors love and defense lawyers detest. The Travel Act is a device invented by Robert F. Kennedy when he was Attorney General in the early Sixties. It was designed for use against organized crime and made it easier to prove cases against hoodlums. In the sports world, it was used most recently in the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics bribery scandal. Federal prosecutors charged the Utah organizers under the Travel Act and proved millions of dollars in bribes. Vick, however, can take some hope from the fact that U.S. District Judge David Sam found the organizers not guilty of violating the Travel Act, even though there was powerful evidence of bribery.

What was Vick's role in the dogfighting conspiracy described in the indictment?

According to the indictment, Vick was in the middle of everything from beginning to end. He purchased a vacant piece of property for $34,000, the indictment says. He then had sheds built for training dogs and staging fights and a fence erected to shield the operation from view. And finally, the indictment says, he had a two-story frame house with a basketball court put up as a residence for the people taking care of the dogs. If you believe the indictment, the Vick property had everything anyone could want in a dogfighting operation.

When would Vick's trial begin?

The federal courthouse in Richmond, Va., is the home of the nationally recognized "rocket docket." Cases move quickly in Richmond, more quickly than in any other courthouse in the federal system. Vick's lawyers will be looking for delays and for time to prepare a defense, but the trial likely would begin in a matter of four to six months.

Are the federal authorities in Richmond tough on crime?

Ask Ralph Sampson, the former NBA star. He fell behind in child support payments to seven children that he had with four women, the kind of thing that is ordinarily worked out in a settlement. But instead of a settlement, Sampson found himself charged with felonies in federal court. And then, very quickly, he found himself in jail for two months on a child support charge. Yes, they're tough on crime in Richmond, and they might be particularly tough on crimes involving the torture and killing of dogs.

ESPN.com's Lester Munson is a Chicago lawyer and journalist who has been reporting on investigative and legal issues in the sports industry for 18 years.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940312

[Doomsday101]

Easy folks - this scumbag loser is innocent until proven guilty.

In the court of law your right innocent until proven guilty in the public eye Vick better be able to show his innocents of having no knowledge what so ever. Some early reports from a witness describes Vick taking part in killing some of these dogs in what many people will find as very cruel. He may walk from the law but a lot of his money is made up off of public opinion.

[cbfan55]

From what I here he's possibly looking at 6yrs and a $350,000.00 fine

[Doomsday101]

From what I here he's possibly looking at 6yrs and a $350,000.00 fine

And that will be federal prison time where there is no 3 for 1 or 4 for 1 good time

[Vintage]

Anyone know what kind of sentences go to people for tax fraud? Just curious....

[Doomsday101]

Anyone know what kind of sentences go to people for tax fraud? Just curious....

Not sure but I do know that the people at Enron went down hard and rightfully so.

[adamknite]

From what I here he's possibly looking at 6yrs and a $350,000.00 fine

And that will be federal prison time where there is no 3 for 1 or 4 for 1 good time

If he's guilty he deserves this kind of punishment. Well the 350k is probably not big deal to him but the 6 years in a federal prison should be.

[Teague31]

my money says he is never convicted... an indictment means nothing. i'm a defense attorney and can tell you numerous examples of clients i have had that have been indicted but never convicted. The old saying is that the government could get a ham sandwich indicted if they wanted to. its completely one sided with no cross examination or favorable evidence presented. mark it down- he walks.

[Doomsday101]

my money says he is never convicted... an indictment means nothing. i'm a defense attorney and can tell you numerous examples of clients i have had that have been indicted but never convicted. The old saying is that the government could get a ham sandwich indicted if they wanted to. its completely one sided with no cross examination or favorable evidence presented. mark it down- he walks.

I'm sure he will get the best lawyer his money can buy and he may walk because of that but this still could cost him big time. OJ was found not guilty either but I don't think this is the life OJ was hoping for.

[Seven]

The biggest reason they couldn't get a trade for Culpepper is he had a no-trade clause in his contract, and made it known that he wouldn't accept any trade... he forced his release, because he wanted to be able to pick and choose which team he went to...

Beyond that, I think it's pretty ridiculous to label Culpepper a "BUST", when he has a career quarterback rating of 90.8, a 64.2 per cent completion rate, a 7.7 yards per attempt averaged, and 137 career TDs to 89 career ints...

All of these are very good numbers, actually... for sure, they're better numbers than Joey Harrington ever put up... we're talking a career 68.2 quarterback rating, a 55.2 completion percentage, a 5.4 yards per attempt average, and 72 TDs to 77 ints...

Without being mad at you, or feeling an urge to insult you, anybody who doesn't recognize that Culpepper would be a large upgrade over Joey Harrington really doesn't know much about football in general, or either player in particular...

Why would you be mad at a poster who states his opinion? I find that odd. What I find even more odd is this entire portion of your post. Why would you even include the above statements? You feel the need to not insult me but yet you continue on with it. You can't rob and beat the Pope, then say "sorry 'bout that big guy. ."

Indeed, I'd personally be shickled titless if the Boys were to go out and sign Culpepper (though he probably wouldn't be interested in being a backup to Tony Romo)... I'd sure feel a lot better if he was waiting in the wings, rather than Brad Johnson...

I can respect your thoughts on the matter as well as your included stats, which don't mean much to me, because without Moss Culpepper is completly exposed. The man couldn't read a defense if they invited him in to the huddle. The Vikings offense struggled, to say the least, the moment Moss departed. Look up his QB rating the one season(or part of) without Moss. Just because Moss wasn't receiving doesn't mean he wasn't doing damage to opposing defenses.

There are far too many tangibles on both sides of the coin to debate this as of right now. Culpepper/Moss, Harrington/OL or lack there of. However, the claim of Culpepper being a huge upgrade over Harrington is a quantum leap in itself.

It's too bad he wouldn't consider a backup role to Romo. That's all he is.

[Teague31]

I'm sure he will get the best lawyer his money can buy and he may walk because of that but this still could cost him big time. OJ was found not guilty either but I don't think this is the life OJ was hoping for.


without a doubt, his sponsors will all jump ship and he may still get a suspension from the nfl but in regards to a felony conviction or prison time, i just can't see it happening.

[Wood]

I kind of wish Vick does play some games so fans can let him know where he stands in public opinion. I would give PETA about 10,000 lower level tickets and let them have at it.

[Doomsday101]

without a doubt, his sponsors will all jump ship and he may still get a suspension from the nfl but in regards to a felony conviction or prison time, i just can't see it happening.

People told me that the Enron bunch would not go down being rich white collar criminals and they would buy their way out of it. Well that did not happen. If the prosecution has the evidence they very well be able to nail Vick. Add to that because he is a celebrity it seems the feds took their sweet time in the investigation before they went after Vick so that tells me they have some type of hard evidence. We will see how this all plays out

[Vintage]

Do you know how many years the ENRON people are facing Doomsday?

[cobra]

From what I here he's possibly looking at 6yrs and a $350,000.00 fine

I heard ESPN report something like this. And whoever sourced them on that, I think was incorrect. It is a misreading of the RICO statute he was indicted under (see my previous posts explaining that). Violations of RICO are, by statute, up to 20 years per act. There appears to be numerous acts (10 or so). So that is what he is technically "facing." However, I really don't see him getting anything more than 10 years at worst.

Also, don't rule out the possibility of further indictments against him... keep this in the back of your mind.

His ultimate punishment depends on how much involvement they can prove. If he really was a key player in this, then I could see him getting popped with 10 years to make an example of him (like they did with Skilling). If he was just the money man, I can't see him getting more than a couple of years in jail. The fines, however, will be enormous.

[Doomsday101]

Do you know how many years the ENRON people are facing Doomsday?

It varied, some got 20 years but Skilling was given over 100 years. Ken Lay was looking at several years but died before being sent to prison.

[03EBZ06]

Do you know how many years the ENRON people are facing Doomsday?
I think the prison setentencing varied, some got 6 years, others house arrest for x number of years but the most severe sentence was Jeffrey Skilling, he received 24 years in minimum security prison.

[Doomsday101]

I think the prison setentencing varied, some got 6 years, others house arrest for x number of years but the most severe sentence was Jeffrey Skilling, he received 24 years in minimum security prison.

Your correct, my mistake Skilling was looking at over 100 but got 24 years

[Teague31]

and ray lewis was charged with murder... and jamal lewis was charged with drug distribution... how did those turn out?

[03EBZ06]

and ray lewis was charged with murder... and jamal lewis was charged with drug distribution... how did those turn out?
So are you saying Vick is innocent? Or saying Feds don't have any case to convict him?

[Vintage]

So are you saying Vick is innocent? Or saying Feds don't have any case to convict him?


I think its extremely obvious what he is saying.

[Doomsday101]

and ray lewis was charged with murder... and jamal lewis was charged with drug distribution... how did those turn out?

True he could walk hell they had DNA evidence at the crime scene in the OJ trail and he walked. It could happen not saying it can't but a lot will depend on what the Feds have we will have to see what they got

[03EBZ06]

I think its extremely obvious what he is saying.
That's because you are a very smart person, so good for you.

[cobra]

my money says he is never convicted... an indictment means nothing. i'm a defense attorney and can tell you numerous examples of clients i have had that have been indicted but never convicted. The old saying is that the government could get a ham sandwich indicted if they wanted to. its completely one sided with no cross examination or favorable evidence presented. mark it down- he walks.

I'm a defense attorney as well, although I haven't done criminal defense work since law school.

I noted earlier in this thread the rejoinder about ham sandwiches. But I am shocked to see you think a federal indictment means nothing. I would think anyone versed in the law and especially one who claims to be a criminal defense attorney would be aware of the fact that currently federal prosecutors have about a 95% conviction rate. And when we are aware of at least 4 strong cooperating witnesses, the likelihood of a co-conspirator turning on Vick, and probably a good number of other witnesses not named, the conviction rate only rises from there.

Perhaps you were confused and thought this was a state grand jury. Or perhaps you somehow were unaware of the difference between state indictments and federal indictments. That's the only thing that can explain your derisive attitude to this news. This is a big deal for Vick. Federal prosecutors don't go before grand juries unless they are certain they have evidence for conviction.

Sure, they can indict anyone. But they don't. They only indict those they know they can bag. And when it is a high profile target, that is even more true. And when they have a high profile target, they can and want to try make an example of them because of the press.

Vick is in real deep trouble here.

[cobra]

and ray lewis was charged with murder... and jamal lewis was charged with drug distribution... how did those turn out?

Are you really an attorney? I find it hard to believe that an attorney doesn't understand the difference in conviction rates for state felonies by district attorneys in state courts and federal RICO charges brought by federal prosecutors in federal district court. The two things aren't even remotely comparable. Any attorney knows that.

[Big Dakota]

my money says he is never convicted... an indictment means nothing. i'm a defense attorney and can tell you numerous examples of clients i have had that have been indicted but never convicted. The old saying is that the government could get a ham sandwich indicted if they wanted to. its completely one sided with no cross examination or favorable evidence presented. mark it down- he walks.


Mark it down, he fries Mr. big time Ozark county. :lmao2:

[03EBZ06]

Are you really an attorney? I find it hard to believe that an attorney doesn't understand the difference in conviction rates for state felonies by district attorneys in state courts and federal RICO charges brought by federal prosecutors in federal district court. The two things aren't even remotely comparable. Any attorney knows that.
That is why I had to ask for clarification.