Rev. Al, Russell Simmons, PETA add their two cents on Vick...

[trickblue]

For Immediate Release:
July 18, 2007

Contact:
Dan Shannon 757-622-7382

This morning, all of Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick's corporate sponsors, Falcons CEO Arthur Blank, and NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell received a joint letter from hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons, civil rights leader The Rev. Al Sharpton, and PETA President Ingrid E. Newkirk roundly condemning dogfighting and other forms of violence.

"The recent media spotlight on dogfighting reminds us of society's callous disregard for the suffering of animals and disrespect for sentient beings," they wrote in letters that arrived by FedEx this morning. "We hope that Mr. Vick is not a product of this insensitivity that runs through our society. ... It does us little good to prosecute just those who are famous and allow people across the country to continue to commit these hideous crimes. We are hopeful that authorities will take the appropriate action against anyone found guilty of an atrocity as serious as dogfighting ... . Today, we sound a clarion call to all people: Stand up for what is right, and speak out against what is wrong. Dogfighting is unacceptable. Hurting animals for human pleasure or gain is despicable. Cruelty is just plain wrong."

The statement comes on the heels of Michael Vick's indictment by a federal grand jury on a conspiracy charge related to his alleged involvement with dogfighting, including fatally hanging, drowning, and slamming against the ground dogs who "did not perform well." The indictment follows an April 25 raid on Vick's property in Surry County, Va., during which authorities reportedly found 70 dogs--including at least 60 pit bulls, the breed that is most commonly used for fighting--and paraphernalia commonly associated with dogfighting. Some of the animals reportedly had deep wounds and cuts consistent with fighting.

The Simmons, Sharpton, and PETA letters went to all of Vick's corporate sponsors, including Nike, Rawlings, Hasbro, Coca-Cola, Easton Sports, and Kraft.

"Anyone capable of forcing dogs to fight to the death should be kept away from all vulnerable forms of life, particularly children and animals," says Newkirk. "Dogfighting is an illegal act that deserves harsh punishment, no matter how famous the alleged perpetrators are."

The letter to Michael Vick's sponsors can be viewed at:

http://blog.peta.org/archives/Michael_Vick_letter.pdf

[AbeBeta]

The Sharpton thing is funny b/c another poster railed against him yesterday with regards to how Al would come out to defend Vick at any moment.

[Vintage]

I wish I was sponsored by Nike....

[bobtheflob]

The NFL may not officially act until there's a verdict, but I'm guessing his sponsers won't be quite so hesitant.

[StonetheCrow77]

Anyone who writes a joint letter with PETA has to be an idiot...

even, though, in this case, they are correct...

[03EBZ06]

Their letter goes to show the volume of "public opinion". Vick hasn't been found guilty, and yet, few of the nationally well known figures are sending a letter to Vick's sponsors as if they want the sponsors to cut ties with Vick, very interesting.

[AbeBeta]

The NFL may not officially act until there's a verdict, but I'm guessing his sponsers won't be quite so hesitant.

Do keep in mind that the league participated in this investigation -- so the league has lots of information right now to make a decision. So like the Feds, the league has a sense to whether they believe he has done something wrong.

If I'm Goodell, I work with Arthur Blank and Vick's agent to broker a deal where Vick agrees to take a leave in lieu of being suspended - if there is a suspension later handed down, he gets credit for "time served" - this leave would likely have to be paid but the suspension might come with a fine that included extra game checks.

[trickblue]

Anyone who writes a joing letter with PETA has to be an idiot...

even, though, in this case, they are correct...

yep...

[Chocolate Lab]

Do keep in mind that the league participated in this investigation -- so the league has lots of information right now to make a decision. So like the Feds, the league has a sense to whether they believe he has done something wrong.

If I'm Goodell, I work with Arthur Blank and Vick's agent to broker a deal where Vick agrees to take a leave in lieu of being suspended - if there is a suspension later handed down, he gets credit for "time served" - this leave would likely have to be paid but the suspension might come with a fine that included extra game checks.Just curious: Why would the league broker a deal with Vick? What leverage does Vick have here? Usually you cut a deal whem both sides have something to gain. What does the NFL have to gain?

I think it would send a bad message that the mega-stars of the sport get to cut PR deals while the average joe Tank Johnsons of the world get hammered.

[Bob Sacamano]

I don't think Goodell would be inclined to cut Vick any break since he pretty much lied to him

[Vintage]

I don't think Goodell would be inclined to cut Vick any break since he pretty much lied to him


That would be my guess too.

I am guessing that Goodell will choose to send a message via Vick.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Their letter goes to show the volume of "public opinion". Vick hasn't been found guilty, and yet, few of the nationally well known figures are sending a letter to Vick's sponsors as if they want the sponsors to cut ties with Vick, very interesting.

From the letter sent out...

"We hope that Mr. Vick is not a product of this insensitivity that runs through our society. ... It does us little good to prosecute just those who are famous and allow people across the country to continue to commit these hideous crimes. We are hopeful that authorities will take the appropriate action against anyone found guilty of an atrocity as serious as dogfighting

[AbeBeta]

Just curious: Why would the league broker a deal with Vick? What leverage does Vick have here? Usually you cut a deal whem both sides have something to gain. What does the NFL have to gain?

I think it would send a bad message that the mega-stars of the sport get to cut PR deals while the average joe Tank Johnsons of the world get hammered.

The league does have something to gain - what they can gain here is a situation wherein they can take action immediately without having to wait for a verdict -- it isn't a "deal" so much as a situation that allows the league to act now and reduce the bad press they will suffer by having Vick associated with the league.

Of course, they can simply suspend him right now too. But as others have pointed out in the mondo other thread on this topic, that presents some issues of fairness and justice in that he has yet to be convicted.

[BrAinPaiNt]

This interests me from a certain stand point.

The commish has came down hard on some players recently.

Now this whole Vick thing is going on.

I wonder if he will come down as hard on Vick.

Here is why I wonder about it.

Tank Johnson, Pac Man Jones and Chris Henry are not in the status of a Vick.

By status I mean it as a Franchise QB for a team and a very popular person in the NFL.

Jerk or not Vick has made money for the NFL. They have hyped him up on ESPN and other sports networks. He goes to the Pro-Bowl. Has had many sponsors. He is viewed as a young QB for todays NFL.

So in that aspect he is not like the others who have recently got in trouble.

Now I don't know if the Commish will be harsher on him since Vick is more of a superstar and in turn gets more negative press for the NFL. Will he be less harsh on him as millions of young people idolize him and watch the game because of him, helps sell jerseys and so on.

Just something to watch here. I don't know if the commish will be consistant with Vicks punishment or if he goes a little more one way or the other.

[AbeBeta]

I don't think Goodell would be inclined to cut Vick any break since he pretty much lied to him

I don't think he's cutting Vick a break so much as recognizing that if the league wants to be totally in the right here that they would have to wait for a conviction -- and I doubt that he wants to do that.

[Doomsday101]

This interests me from a certain stand point.

The commish has came down hard on some players recently.

Now this whole Vick thing is going on.

I wonder if he will come down as hard on Vick.

Here is why I wonder about it.

Tank Johnson, Pac Man Jones and Chris Henry are not in the status of a Vick.

By status I mean it as a Franchise QB for a team and a very popular person in the NFL.

Jerk or not Vick has made money for the NFL. They have hyped him up on ESPN and other sports networks. He goes to the Pro-Bowl. Has had many sponsors. He is viewed as a young QB for todays NFL.

So in that aspect he is not like the others who have recently got in trouble.

Now I don't know if the Commish will be harsher on him since Vick is more of a superstar and in turn gets more negative press for the NFL. Will he be less harsh on him as millions of young people idolize him and watch the game because of him, helps sell jerseys and so on.

Just something to watch here. I don't know if the commish will be consistant with Vicks punishment or if he goes a little more one way or the other.

I think the league will lower the boom on Vick if found guilty.

[03EBZ06]

From the letter sent out...

"We hope that Mr. Vick is not a product of this insensitivity that runs through our society. ... It does us little good to prosecute just those who are famous and allow people across the country to continue to commit these hideous crimes. We are hopeful that authorities will take the appropriate action against anyone found guilty of an atrocity as serious as dogfighting
I just find it interesting that letter was sent to Vick's sponsors only.

[BrAinPaiNt]

I just find it interesting that letter was sent to Vick's sponsors only.

Should they send it to the red cross and a 7-11?

Not being a wise guy but who else would they send it to?

They are saying if he is found guilty we feel he should be punished. Punished in terms of the sponsorship being dropped.

Giving a heads up.

[Boyzmamacita]

I'm not what you could call an animal lover, but I am glad someone is speaking out against cruely to animals. I was listening to the Tom Joyner Morning Show own the radio this morning and when the subject of whether or not Vick should be "banned" from the NFL came up, Tom Joyner kept saying it's "just some dogs." "Why should he be banned for just some dogs?" Although a lifetime ban would be harsh, (maybe too harsh, I don't know), I take offense to the phrase "just some dogs." It is that attitude that allows a human to be cruel to another creature. I mean, hanging? Slamming? Drowning? Come on Tom Joyner, where is your humanity?

[trickblue]

I think the league will lower the boom on Vick if found guilty.

They won't have to...

If he is convicted he is likely going to the backdoor slammer for multiple years. Also keep in mind as well that there is no parole in Federal prison. You do the time...

[Crown Royal]

"Anyone capable of forcing dogs to fight to the death should be kept away from all vulnerable forms of life, particularly children and animals," says Newkirk.


Ludicrous leap in logic.

[Wood]

I think it would be smart for the league to atleast wait until the evidence in this case is presented to public because if they act too soon and it can be perceived as being too heavy handed and a rush to judgement. Vicks charges is much more severe than Pac Man or Tank but this would be first offense in the leagues eyes. Will be interesting to see how it plays out. I just hope this doesnt turn out to be another OJ high profile case where the defendent is obviously guilty but a high powered defense team uses race to persuade a jury.

[Hostile]

If I am Arthur Blank I waive Vick and sign Culpepper to compete with Harrington again. I wouldn't wait for a conviction. I would get the hell away from this so fast it would live peel out marks all over Vick's driveway.

I wouldn't wait to the NFL either. I'd just cut the umbilical cord.

I would not want the power of activists or activist groups picketing my stadium or my stores.

I would move before anyone else did so that everyone would know I do not excuse this kind of activity.

[Crown Royal]

If I am Arthur Blank I waive Vick and sign Culpepper to compete with Harrington again. I wouldn't wait for a conviction. I would get the hell away from this so fast it would live peel out marks all over Vick's driveway.

I wouldn't wait to the NFL either. I'd just cut the umbilical cord.

I would not want the power of activists or activist groups picketing my stadium or my stores.

I would move before anyone else did so that everyone would know I do not excuse this kind of activity.

All good except for one thing - what makes you think Culpepper would come back to that to compete with Harrington?

And I know how you feel about Harrington, heck, if there is a coach that he fits, he's there.

[superpunk]

I'm not what you could call an animal lover, but I am glad someone is speaking out against cruely to animals. I was listening to the Tom Joyner Morning Show own the radio this morning and when the subject of whether or not Vick should be "banned" from the NFL came up, Tom Joyner kept saying it's "just some dogs." "Why should he be banned for just some dogs?" Although a lifetime ban would be harsh, (maybe too harsh, I don't know), I take offense to the phrase "just some dogs." It is that attitude that allows a human to be cruel to another creature. I mean, hanging? Slamming? Drowning? Come on Tom Joyner, where is your humanity?

I like dogs, and I think puppies are adorable, yada yada yada...

but do you find it odd that we are outraged that someone could do this to animals we consider pets - but we don't care what people do to our food before we get that hamburger or veal? I realize the difference between entertainment and food - but it's cruel either way, and both are techncally unecessary.

I mean, technically, isn't horse racing pretty cruel in the name of entertainment? Circuses? I don't know. I can see where people would say "it's just a dog". Why do we determine that it is fine for us to dominate one kind of animal but live in partnership with another?

I think if people really think on that for a while, they can acknowledge that the line is at least a little blurry.

[StanleySpadowski]

If I am Arthur Blank I waive Vick and sign Culpepper to compete with Harrington again. I wouldn't wait for a conviction. I would get the hell away from this so fast it would live peel out marks all over Vick's driveway.

I wouldn't wait to the NFL either. I'd just cut the umbilical cord.

I would not want the power of activists or activist groups picketing my stadium or my stores.

I would move before anyone else did so that everyone would know I do not excuse this kind of activity.


Blank's probably begging Goddell to suspend Vick. If he plays this year and is found guilty at a later date, Blank'll lose fans for the Falcons and customers for Home Depot.

If he's suspended, Blank can claim it was out of his hands whether he's found guilty or not. No harm no foul.

[03EBZ06]

Should they send it to the red cross and a 7-11?

Not being a wise guy but who else would they send it to?

They are saying if he is found guilty we feel he should be punished. Punished in terms of the sponsorship being dropped.

Giving a heads up.
Why not to all corporate sponsors to give them heads up, if anyone found guilty of this atrocious act they should break the tie with that perpetrator.

He hasn't been found guilty yet so it has an appearance of judging him already.

I see nothing wrong with that letter, just got my radar up because it was only sent to Vick's sponsors, that's all.

[StonetheCrow77]

Cut Vick?? Ya, right... the Falcons will not do that for one thing and one thing only... they eat part of that contract they gave him and take a cap hit... if he is convicted, I'm sure there are out clauses for them... maybe, even, ways to get back part of their money they already gave him in signing bonus...

[StonetheCrow77]

I like dogs, and I think puppies are adorable, yada yada yada...

but do you find it odd that we are outraged that someone could do this to animals we consider pets - but we don't care what people do to our food before we get that hamburger or veal? I realize the difference between entertainment and food - but it's cruel either way, and both are techncally unecessary.

I mean, technically, isn't horse racing pretty cruel in the name of entertainment? Circuses? I don't know. I can see where people would say "it's just a dog". Why do we determine that it is fine for us to dominate one kind of animal but live in partnership with another?

I think if people really think on that for a while, they can acknowledge that the line is at least a little blurry.

they take a cow and put a spike through it's skull.. it dies instantly... they don't throw it into a pit with another cow and watch them rip each other apart...

[Hostile]

All good except for one thing - what makes you think Culpepper would come back to that to compete with Harrington?

And I know how you feel about Harrington, heck, if there is a coach that he fits, he's there.:money:

And if all it accomplishes is that I have the 1st pick in 2008, I use it to reunite Bobby Petrino and Brian Brohm and I move on.

If Vick is found innocent, I settle with him out of court, and apologize to him as a man. But I would not, repeat NOT, wait for picket lines in front of my stores or stadium.

[Yeagermeister]

I like dogs, and I think puppies are adorable, yada yada yada...

but do you find it odd that we are outraged that someone could do this to animals we consider pets - but we don't care what people do to our food before we get that hamburger or veal? I realize the difference between entertainment and food - but it's cruel either way, and both are techncally unecessary.

I mean, technically, isn't horse racing pretty cruel in the name of entertainment? Circuses? I don't know. I can see where people would say "it's just a dog". Why do we determine that it is fine for us to dominate one kind of animal but live in partnership with another?

I think if people really think on that for a while, they can acknowledge that the line is at least a little blurry.

In the words of Jules Winfield a dog has a personality. :D

[Hostile]

Blank's probably begging Goddell to suspend Vick. If he plays this year and is found guilty at a later date, Blank'll lose fans for the Falcons and customers for Home Depot.

If he's suspended, Blank can claim it was out of his hands whether he's found guilty or not. No harm no foul.I did not think about this angle, but you make a valid point.

[StonetheCrow77]

Does anyone really think that Mike Vick entices people to buy anything from Home Depot??

[StanleySpadowski]

Cut Vick?? Ya, right... the Falcons will not do that for one thing and one thing only... they eat part of that contract they gave him and take a cap hit... if he is convicted, I'm sure there are out clauses for them... maybe, even, ways to get back part of their money they already gave him in signing bonus...

Vick could pay back his entire bonus and it would have no effect on the salary cap. Separate issues as far as the NFL is concerned.


If they cut Vick, he'd count somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 million this season and 15 million next.

[superpunk]

they take a cow and put a spike through it's skull.. it dies instantly... they don't throw it into a pit with another cow and watch them rip each other apart...

We do keep young calves in pens to keep them tender, though. In any case, it all sounds pretty crappy and unnecessary to me.

I'm not about to stop eating steak.

I just see where there's a little fuzziness is all. We can do really horrible, nasty things to cows - encapture animals for circuses, whip horses to race them...maybe personally mine and your morals place those as acceptable where dogfighting is unthinkable - but can you see where some would not, based on their upbringing?

In the words of Jules Winfield a dog has a personality. :D

If you look hard enough, underneath that stupidity I think alot of things we eat have personalities.

[StanleySpadowski]

Does anyone really think that Mike Vick entices people to buy anything from Home Depot??

Not at all, but Blank owns Home Depot and it wouldn't be a stretch to see an animal lover stop at Lowes instead if they thought he was supporting a dogfighter.

[StonetheCrow77]

Vick could pay back his entire bonus and it would have no effect on the salary cap. Separate issues as far as the NFL is concerned.


If they cut Vick, he'd count somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 million this season and 15 million next.

who said anything about him paying back his signing bonus and that effecting the cap? the rest of his pro rated signing bonus projected into the future is what they are worried about, I'm sure... if he gets cut, like you said, they take the hit... if he is convicted, I'm sure that hit is no longer there, because the contract would be voided by Vicks illegal actions...

Them recouping portions of the paid signing bonus would only be for their monetary value and getting portions back of investment into him... much like the Dolphins did with Ricky Williams...

[ConcordCowboy]

Good for Sharpton...Simmons and PETA.

Go get his ***!

Dump him Nike....Just Do It!

http://www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/5232/impale2.jpeg

[StonetheCrow77]

We do keep young calves in pens to keep them tender, though. In any case, it all sounds pretty crappy and unnecessary to me.

I'm not about to stop eating steak.

I just see where there's a little fuzziness is all. We can do really horrible, nasty things to cows - encapture animals for circuses, whip horses to race them...maybe personally mine and your morals place those as acceptable where dogfighting is unthinkable - but can you see where some would not, based on their upbringing?



If you look hard enough, underneath that stupidity I think alot of things we eat have personalities.

I live in cow country... they keep all of them in fields to graze, raising them... then they move them to a feed yard where they wait for about two months to be butchered...

I get your point, it's just not on the same level... it's like comparing UFC with knife fighting...

[StanleySpadowski]

who said anything about him paying back his signing bonus and that effecting the cap? the rest of his pro rated signing bonus projected into the future is what they are worried about, I'm sure... if he gets cut, like you said, they take the hit... if he is convicted, I'm sure that hit is no longer there, because the contract would be voided by Vicks illegal actions...

Them recouping portions of the paid signing bonus would only be for their monetary value and getting portions back of investment into him... much like the Dolphins did with Ricky Williams...

The salary cap hit is still there if he's convicted. The recently suspended players still count for cap purposes the exact same, heck the Vikings didn't get any cap relief when Stringer died so I'd doubt the Falcons would get any sort of break.

[StonetheCrow77]

The salary cap hit is still there if he's convicted. The recently suspended players still count for cap purposes the exact same, heck the Vikings didn't get any cap relief when Stringer died so I'd doubt the Falcons would get any sort of break.

No, if they put clauses in the contract that voids it for illegal activity, then the cap hit is no longer there... the Cowboys do this in all of their contracts... exactly what happened with Goodrich...

[Chocolate Lab]

It doesn't matter if someone thinks eating steak is anywhere near dog fighting or not. What matters is what the law says. And the law says that what Vick and/or his cronies did is a felony.

But that said, I can't see how anyone can't see how the kind of cruelty involved in this allegation is anywhere near calf roping or horse racing.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Must be a first, Sharpton thinks a black man is guilty before a trial.

[superpunk]

I live in cow country... they keep all of them in fields to graze, raising them... then they move them to a feed yard where they wait for about two months to be butchered...

I get your point, it's just not on the same level... it's like comparing UFC with knife fighting...

I completely agree with you. But we probably share similar backgrounds, upbringings and morals. If we were raised as pirates, we probably wouldn't see the big deal with knife-fighting.

But that said, I can't see how anyone can't see how the kind of cruelty involved in this allegation is anywhere near calf roping or horse racing.

I think you got that backwards. ;)

It's not really about whether they're similar in terms of cruelty. The things are dying either way. I was just kind of wondering aloud at how we (individually) decide when putting them to death crosses the line from slaughtering them to cruelty. Clearly that's morality more than legality. Hell - it used to be illegal to produce alcohol. Who knows where our collective morals will be in 20 years, or what they will then allow us to get away with in terms of cruelty.

Personally, I'm hoping knife-fighting makes a comeback. Or duels....those were the days...

[Vintage]

Personally, I'm hoping knife-fighting makes a comeback. Or duels....those were the days...


Tell that to Alexander Hamilton.

[StonetheCrow77]

http://www.landandlivestockpost.com/images/llp070406/8628_800.jpg

Image removed.

Forgive the cruel photo... but, that is the reality of it... obviously, the two are no where the same level... keeping cows in "cages" and pitt bull fighting...

[Crown Royal]

:money:

And if all it accomplishes is that I have the 1st pick in 2008, I use it to reunite Bobby Petrino and Brian Brohm and I move on.

If Vick is found innocent, I settle with him out of court, and apologize to him as a man. But I would not, repeat NOT, wait for picket lines in front of my stores or stadium.

You just want vindication for thinking that Harrington was a stud.

I suspect this means that the first time Ken Hamlin gets caught driving drunk you will support cutting him in favor of Brandon Everage?

[superpunk]

ok, that photo is sick, and I'm not going to quote it since it will probably be gone soon...but I said I agreed with you. No need to post gore for one viewpoint while posting the cute and cuddly life of a slaughterhouse in another. (not exactly a representative photo...)

You're not really getting the point of what I'm saying - and I kind of expected that (nothing personal, it's just a polarizing thing - so trying to see a few angles can be nigh impossible for most people) - so I'll just drop it.

[Hostile]

Does anyone really think that Mike Vick entices people to buy anything from Home Depot??That isn't even close to the point. I don't even know if he endorses them or not. I doubt it.

[Bob Sacamano]

comparing slaughtering cows for human consumption w/ pit-bull fighting, that benefits noone despite a few greedy individual's pockets is retarded, no matter how you try to spin it

[StonetheCrow77]

ok, that photo is sick, and I'm not going to quote it since it will probably be gone soon...but I said I agreed with you. No need to post gore for one viewpoint while posting the cute and cuddly life of a slaughterhouse in another. (not exactly a representative photo...)

You're not really getting the point of what I'm saying - and I kind of expected that (nothing personal, it's just a polarizing thing - so trying to see a few angles can be nigh impossible for most people) - so I'll just drop it.

No, it is not a cute or cuddly representative photo... it is the reality of what those cows go through before they goto the slaughter house... one of my really good friends growing up owned many feed yards and a livestock auction... that's how those cows live until they drive a stake through the base of it's skull... on the other hand, that pitt bull lives it's life fighting other dogs and ends up looking like that before it's killed in a fight or executed...

the picture is sick... that's the point... don't make less of dog fighting... it is what it is...

[Hostile]

You just want vindication for thinking that Harrington was a stud.

I suspect this means that the first time Ken Hamlin gets caught driving drunk you will support cutting him in favor of Brandon Everage?This isn't even remotely close to DUI and how dare you knock my Everage is greatness plans.

That hurts.

[StanleySpadowski]

No, if they put clauses in the contract that voids it for illegal activity, then the cap hit is no longer there... the Cowboys do this in all of their contracts... exactly what happened with Goodrich...


You seemed confused about how the cap works.

The only time a "conduct detrimental" clause would ever come into effect would be if that conduct occurred by a vested veteran after the first game of the season when that player's contract becomes guaranteed.

The Falcons salary cap is on the hook for $15-20 million (reports vary), the pro-rated portion of his signing bonus, no matter what happens to Vick.

[Crown Royal]

ok, that photo is sick, and I'm not going to quote it since it will probably be gone soon...but I said I agreed with you. No need to post gore for one viewpoint while posting the cute and cuddly life of a slaughterhouse in another. (not exactly a representative photo...)

You're not really getting the point of what I'm saying - and I kind of expected that (nothing personal, it's just a polarizing thing - so trying to see a few angles can be nigh impossible for most people) - so I'll just drop it.

Superpunk, I understand what you are and have been saying, and, as a vegetarian, I try my best to live up to it.

That being said, I can still put more moral ineptitude on dog fighting than eating meat. I feel that one is more cruel than the other in many ways.

[Vintage]

I am not one for censorship....

But please take that picture down. Its disgusting to look at.

[superpunk]

No, it is not a cute or cuddly representative photo... it is the reality of what those cows go through before they goto the slaughter house... one of my really good friends growing up owned many feed yards and a livestock auction... that's how those cows live until they drive a stake through the base of it's skull... on the other hand, that pitt bull lives it's life fighting other dogs and ends up looking like that before it's killed in a fight or executed...

the picture is sick... that's the point... don't make less of dog fighting... it is what it is...

I didn't make less of it.

You've completely missed the point. Whether that's because you didn't read carefully, or I'm just not eloquent enough to get it across, I don't know.

Ugh...someone get back to me when the season starts.

[Crown Royal]

This isn't even remotely close to DUI and how dare you knock my Everage is greatness plans.

That hurts.

Yeah, but Harrington isn't even remotely close to the washout that Everage is, nor is Hamlin even remotely close to the talent that Vick is so I had to scale it properly.:p::D

[joseephuss]

No, if they put clauses in the contract that voids it for illegal activity, then the cap hit is no longer there... the Cowboys do this in all of their contracts... exactly what happened with Goodrich...

Really? I didn't hear that and don't understand it. The cap hit is based on the signing bonus(among other things) and that could be paid years before anything happens such as Goodrich's incident. How did they wipe out his signing bonus? I did not think they did. I believe he was already done with his rookie contract by the time they cut him, so his cap hit was already done.

[Hostile]

Yeah, but Harrington isn't even remotely close to the washout that Everage is, nor is Hamlin even remotely close to the talent that Vick is so I had to scale it properly.:p::DThe dagger just keeps twisting.

[Vintage]

Superpunk, I understand what you are and have been saying, and, as a vegetarian, I try my best to live up to it.

That being said, I can still put more moral ineptitude on dog fighting than eating meat. I feel that one is more cruel than the other in many ways.

Agreed. But I don't think superpunk is saying eating meat is wrong. He is merely pointing out that he can see why there is some grey area concerning this (which incidentally, is why some people become vegetarians...they are concerned about how the animals are killed).

I take a naive approach. I hope and expect my meat to be killed in humane ways. Likely, its not true. But I don't think about that when I am biting into a juicy delicious burger.

I could survive without meat. True. I could survive without a car as well.

Dog Fighting, goes beyond that, because while the slaughtering of animals for meat is SUPPOSED to be humane, there is nothing humane about dog fighting. Its not done for the benefit of nutrition for humans. There is no way to make it humane nor is that the point of dog fighting to begin with; its a form of 'entertainment.'

And that's the difference I make.

[StonetheCrow77]

I am not one for censorship....

But please take that picture down. Its disgusting to look at.

I was about to take it down myself... some one beat me to it...

but, as sick as it is, it's the reality of the situation...

Anyone who tries to pan it off as acceptable or less cruel than that picture, should have to look at it...

[superpunk]

I like to think that maybe my food deserved to be killed.

"Hey Mike - that a chicken sandwich you're eating?"

"Hell yeah! And to think, this chicken tried to steal my car!!!!!"

[joseephuss]

Agreed. But I don't think superpunk is saying eating meat is wrong. He is merely pointing out that he can see why there is some grey area concerning this (which incidentally, is why some people become vegetarians...they are concerned about how the animals are killed).

I take a naive approach. I hope and expect my meat to be killed in humane ways. Likely, its not true. But I don't think about that when I am biting into a juicy delicious burger.

I could survive without meat. True. I could survive without a car as well.

Dog Fighting, goes beyond that, because while the slaughtering of animals for meat is SUPPOSED to be humane, there is nothing humane about dog fighting. Its not done for the benefit of nutrition for humans. There is no way to make it humane nor is that the point of dog fighting to begin with; its a form of 'entertainment.'

And that's the difference I make.

Good points.

[Bob Sacamano]

I like to think that maybe my food deserved to be killed.

"Hey Mike - that a chicken sandwich you're eating?"

"Hell yeah! And to think, this chicken tried to steal my car!!!!!"

:laugh2:

[Hostile]

I like to think that maybe my food deserved to be killed.

"Hey Mike - that a chicken sandwich you're eating?"

"Hell yeah! And to think, this chicken tried to steal my car!!!!!"If they ever find out what causes your head trauma, I hope they don't fix it.

:lmao2:

[blindzebra]

This interests me from a certain stand point.

The commish has came down hard on some players recently.

Now this whole Vick thing is going on.

I wonder if he will come down as hard on Vick.

Here is why I wonder about it.

Tank Johnson, Pac Man Jones and Chris Henry are not in the status of a Vick.

By status I mean it as a Franchise QB for a team and a very popular person in the NFL.

Jerk or not Vick has made money for the NFL. They have hyped him up on ESPN and other sports networks. He goes to the Pro-Bowl. Has had many sponsors. He is viewed as a young QB for todays NFL.

So in that aspect he is not like the others who have recently got in trouble.

Now I don't know if the Commish will be harsher on him since Vick is more of a superstar and in turn gets more negative press for the NFL. Will he be less harsh on him as millions of young people idolize him and watch the game because of him, helps sell jerseys and so on.

Just something to watch here. I don't know if the commish will be consistant with Vicks punishment or if he goes a little more one way or the other.

The suspension will be for embarrassing the league.

First offense doesn't matter.

No conviction doesn't matter.

I'm going to call it now...He's going to be gone for the year.

[Crown Royal]

The suspension will be for embarrassing the league.

First offense doesn't matter.

No conviction doesn't matter.

I'm going to call it now...He's going to be gone for the year.


Great, which means we will have to sit through yet ANOTHER offseason of stories in which vick wants 'to prove himself as a good player.'

[joseephuss]

The suspension will be for embarrassing the league.

First offense doesn't matter.

No conviction doesn't matter.

I'm going to call it now...He's going to be gone for the year.

2007 or 2008? I don't think he will get anything this season. Watch out for 2008. He gets 4 games at least. Probably more.

[blindzebra]

2007 or 2008? I don't think he will get anything this season. Watch out for 2008. He gets 4 games at least. Probably more.

He will sit this year.

There will be too much exposure on the issue for the league to wait.

The conviction won't matter, the lack of criminal acts in his past won't matter, the league will see the fans want his head on a stick.

Factor in the risk of setting a double standard for the superstars versus the rest of the players, and I see it as a no way out situation.

[joseephuss]

He will sit this year.

There will be too much exposure on the issue for the league to wait.

The conviction won't matter, the lack of criminal acts in his past won't matter, the league will see the fans want his head on a stick.

Factor in the risk of setting a double standard for the superstars versus the rest of the players, and I see it as a no way out situation.

I see your point. I don't quite agree at this time. I will let the fire breath for a little longer and see how things come about. We are very close to the start of training camps, thank goodness and we will see how fans react. I know there are already petitions out there calling for him to be banned for life. Maybe your prediction will come true. If not this year, at least next year they may.

[Yeagermeister]

The dagger just keeps twisting.

You just better hope Folk makes the team :D

[Crown Royal]

You just better hope Folk makes the team :D

:laugh2::laugh2:

HH31 only has the 31 yard slant.

Can Hos handle both Everage AND Folk?

[blindzebra]

I see your point. I don't quite agree at this time. I will let the fire breath for a little longer and see how things come about. We are very close to the start of training camps, thank goodness and we will see how fans react. I know there are already petitions out there calling for him to be banned for life. Maybe your prediction will come true. If not this year, at least next year they may.

Well being that part of the grand jury indictment is his nickname that his mom gave him, that he is on record saying anyone outside of his closest friends and family using it would mean, "It was on!" Means next year the league won't be worrying about it he's gonna be in a federal prison.

[Yeagermeister]

:laugh2::laugh2:

HH31 only has the 31 yard slant.

Can Hos handle both Everage AND Folk?

He better be able too because he'll never hear the end of it. :D

[burmafrd]

I cannot find myself agreeing with PETA without wanting to truly hurl.
But their point about those who are cruel to animals being risks to others is borne out by studies on serial killers. Virtually every one of them were cruel to animals. In many cases what they did to animals as kids they did to people as adults.

[burmafrd]

by the way- I used to have a tshirt that said "PETA"



PEOPLE for EATING TASTY ANIMALS

[Crown Royal]

I cannot find myself agreeing with PETA without wanting to truly hurl.
But their point about those who are cruel to animals being risks to others is borne out by studies on serial killers. Virtually every one of them were cruel to animals. In many cases what they did to animals as kids they did to people as adults.

That is still a leap in logic. It is one thing to say all serial killers abuse animals, but completely different to say that all animal abusers are serial killers.

[5Stars]

I think if people really think on that for a while, they can acknowledge that the line is at least a little blurry.


Good point, punk! Where I live I see all kinds of seeing-eye-cows leading the blind around and the fire department close to where I live has a trained steer that goes and helps out in fires!

The air base that I used to work for has a bomb sniffing lamb and another cow that rides around in a police car to help catch criminals.

Let's see...what else? Oh yeah, there are some chickens over here where I live that work as guard chickens in a junkcar car lot to keep theives out...so, yeah, I agree, it's blurry...indeed!


:rolleyes: :cool:

[CrazyCowboy]

Man, this is not looking good for Ron Mexico

[burmafrd]

It is a FACT that virtually all serial killers abused animals. It is also a fact that many violent criminals abuse animals. It is not a leap of logic to consider Vick a risk.

[joseephuss]

That is still a leap in logic. It is one thing to say all serial killers abuse animals, but completely different to say that all animal abusers are serial killers.

How about the influence on kids? It isn't a leap to think that if Vick goes unpunished that some kids will think it is okay to be cruel to animals. I means kids are pretty stupid. Okay, maybe not stupid because I think kids today are much brighter than I was when I was their age. But they are still kids and can be influenced.

[blindzebra]

That is still a leap in logic. It is one thing to say all serial killers abuse animals, but completely different to say that all animal abusers are serial killers.

They didn't say that.

They said that someone who is so indifferent to a living thing that they would beat, shoot, electrocute and fight dogs that can they be trusted around any living thing...IMO, no they can't, they are defective people.

That defect is the are sociopaths which means they are a danger to anyone and anything around them.

[Bob Sacamano]

at least we know these wierdos are sadists

I wouldn't trust a sadist around anyone's kids

[burmafrd]

http://hum.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/38/12/1113

http://cats.about.com/cs/crueltyconnection/a/cruelty.htm

Just a couple showing the connections

[superpunk]

Good point, punk! Where I live I see all kinds of seeing-eye-cows leading the blind around and the fire department close to where I live has a trained steer that goes and helps out in fires!

The air base that I used to work for has a bomb sniffing lamb and another cow that rides around in a police car to help catch criminals.

Let's see...what else? Oh yeah, there are some chickens over here where I live that work as guard chickens in a junkcar car lot to keep theives out...so, yeah, I agree, it's blurry...indeed!

So you rationalize cruelty towards animals who do not help us in any way? Can we fight cats, then? Pretty much all they do is act prissy and stick their anuses in our face when we try to pet them.

The fact that you had to go through scenarios why dogs help humans as justification for being cruel to animals that are of no use to us kind of demonstrates the point - the line is a bit fuzzy. There's only a clear distinction where you personally have made one. One way may be "more humane" than another - but at the end of the day, it's all the same thing, isn't it? Animals dying for our enjoyment.

[Alexander]

The Sharpton thing is funny b/c another poster railed against him yesterday with regards to how Al would come out to defend Vick at any moment.

Anyone that defends him would be branded a monster.

But I can only lament that Johnnie Cochran is now pushing up daisies, otherwise he would be a natural to lead the defense.

[Bob Sacamano]

So you rationalize cruelty towards animals who do not help us in any way? Can we fight cats, then? Pretty much all they do is act prissy and stick their anuses in our face when we try to pet them.

The fact that you had to go through scenarios why dogs help humans as justification for being cruel to animals that are of no use to us kind of demonstrates the point - the line is a bit fuzzy. There's only a clear distinction where you personally have made one. One way may be "more humane" than another - but at the end of the day, it's all the same thing, isn't it? Animals dying for our enjoyment.

I see the line being blurry between dog-fighting and calf-roping, though I condone neither, but it's not that difficult to see the difference between slaughter for the benefit of man and dog-fighting, which benefits a small group of greedy individuals, which in the end doesn't really better anything, and at the cost of innocent animals, it's such a total waste

[bbgun]

The Sharpton thing is funny b/c another poster railed against him yesterday with regards to how Al would come out to defend Vick at any moment.

God you're dishonest. I predicted that Sharp would throw a hissyfit if Goodell decided to suspend Vick ahead of the trial. That hasn't happened yet. Now I see that Sharp has decided to stick his nose in this anyway. BTW, who asked him to? How exactly is the good Reverend relevant to this case? Is he Vick's agent? Spiritual adviser? Or does he just pop up whenever a stripper cries rape? The mystery widens.

[superpunk]

I see the line being blurry between dog-fighting and calf-roping, though I condone neither, but it's not that difficult to see the difference between slaughter for the benefit of man and dog-fighting, which benefits a small group of greedy individuals, which in the end doesn't really better anything, and at the cost of innocent animals, it's such a total waste

Could you live without red meat?

Certainly you could - but who would want to? :)

You (and everyone else who isn't quite getting it) don;t have to convince me that dogfighting is horribly HORRIBLY wrong. I'm just trying to illustrate the point that animal cruelty is animal cruelty - we've just chosen to make some animals pets, and so we tolerate less cruelty to said animals. Maybe people to whom dogs are not pets - but rather posessions - feel differently about their treatment morally, regardless of what the law says.

[Danny White]

Michael Vick has NOTHING on this sadistic Tour de France cyclist:

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3178.html

:lmao2:

[burmafrd]

I really think that anyone that tries to say that calf roping and dog fighting are even in the same galaxy really needs to take a hard look at themselves.

[superpunk]

I really think that anyone that tries to say that calf roping and dog fighting are even in the same galaxy really needs to take a hard look at themselves.

You're right. I was three clicks away from becoming a serial killer. Thanks to your call for self reflection, I was able to turn my life around.

Thank you burmafrd. Thank you for not reading.




H. ......

[5Stars]

So you rationalize cruelty towards animals who do not help us in any way? Can we fight cats, then? Pretty much all they do is act prissy and stick their anuses in our face when we try to pet them.

The fact that you had to go through scenarios why dogs help humans as justification for being cruel to animals that are of no use to us kind of demonstrates the point - the line is a bit fuzzy. There's only a clear distinction where you personally have made one. One way may be "more humane" than another - but at the end of the day, it's all the same thing, isn't it? Animals dying for our enjoyment.


Just for you, punk...this is what a dog is all about. Do you own a dog?

Cats? You can love a cat too...but, it's hard to train them. Taco spelled backwards...o cat..., but they are domesticated also as are other living things. Others animals are breed for food and is regulated buy the Food and Drug Admin...and their blurry ways.



1do·mes·ti·cate http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?domest03.wav=domesticate')) Pronunciation: \də-ˈmes-ti-ˌkāt\ Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): do·mes·ti·cat·ed; do·mes·ti·cat·ing Date: circa 1639 1 : to bring into domestic (http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/domestic) use : adopt (http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adopt) 2 : to adapt (an animal or plant) to life in intimate association with and to the advantage of humans 3 : to make domestic (http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/domestic) : fit for domestic (http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/domestic) life 4 : to bring to the level of ordinary people

[Crown Royal]

It is a FACT that virtually all serial killers abused animals. It is also a fact that many violent criminals abuse animals. It is not a leap of logic to consider Vick a risk.

I understand where you are going, and maybe he is an increase in risk, but I still don't think that just because there are violent criminals/serial killers that torture animals that there is not a degree of torture/animal cruelty in those who would otherwise never harm a human. A great deal of people consider animals completely unrelated to humans. Rene Descartes dissected live cats because he considered them 'automatons.' I don't see that it is apples to apples.

[burmafrd]

super- you try and defend it. Go ahead. This should be interesting- sort of like watching a car accident in progress.

[Crown Royal]

How about the influence on kids? It isn't a leap to think that if Vick goes unpunished that some kids will think it is okay to be cruel to animals. I means kids are pretty stupid. Okay, maybe not stupid because I think kids today are much brighter than I was when I was their age. But they are still kids and can be influenced.

I don't disagree with this at all - obviously kids can be influenced. But I got from the letter that it was trying to say that Vick had potential to inflict physical harm on children, which is something different.

[Bob Sacamano]

Could you live without red meat?

Certainly you could - but who would want to? :)

You (and everyone else who isn't quite getting it) don;t have to convince me that dogfighting is horribly HORRIBLY wrong. I'm just trying to illustrate the point that animal cruelty is animal cruelty - we've just chosen to make some animals pets, and so we tolerate less cruelty to said animals. Maybe people to whom dogs are not pets - but rather posessions - feel differently about their treatment morally, regardless of what the law says.

it's you who doesn't quite get it

the end justifies the means, to what end is dog-fighting? nothing

to what end is slaughtering cows? human nourishment

I'm not even arguing which is more horrible, but which has benefits, slaughtering cows has many, dog-fighting has none, zip, zero, the line isn't blurry, now calf-roping, yes, I can see that argument as it has no benefits either

[burmafrd]

Sounds like Descartes was somewhat warped.

[Crown Royal]

They didn't say that.

They said that someone who is so indifferent to a living thing that they would beat, shoot, electrocute and fight dogs that can they be trusted around any living thing...IMO, no they can't, they are defective people.

That defect is the are sociopaths which means they are a danger to anyone and anything around them.

This is like what I said above - you are grouping living creatures in the same category, while people like vick who are involved in dogfighting, I would assume that they consider dogs far less than human (which I assume most do). Maybe I am making too many assumptions?

[superpunk]

Just for you, punk...this is what a dog is all about. Do you own a dog?

Cats? You can love a cat too...but, it's hard to train them. Taco spelled backwards...o cat..., but they are domesticated also as are other living things. Others animals are breed for food and is regulated buy the Food and Drug Admin...and their blurry ways.



1do·mes·ti·cate http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?domest03.wav=domesticate%27%29) Pronunciation: \də-ˈmes-ti-ˌkāt\ Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): do·mes·ti·cat·ed; do·mes·ti·cat·ing Date: circa 1639 1 : to bring into domestic (http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/domestic) use :adopt (http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adopt) 2 : to adapt (an animal or plant) to life in intimate association with and to the advantage of humans 3 : to make domestic (http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/domestic): fit for domestic (http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/domestic) life 4 : to bring to the level of ordinary people

I don't have the slightest idea what your point is.

If it is that we can't be cruel to dogs because we have domesticated them - that's exactly what I'm trying to illustrate. And that maybe - just maybe - there are people out there who don't view dogs in the warm and cuddly way that most of us do, viewing them instead as objects that they can do with as they please. The law does not agree with them, but the law does not determine our morality.

it's you who doesn't quite get it

the end justifies the means, to what end is dog-fighting? nothing

to what end is slaughtering cows? human nourishment

I'm not even arguing which is more horrible

Is either one necessary? Can humans get the nourishment provided by red meat from sources other than shoving a spike through a cow's head or an electrode up it's butt?

[Crown Royal]

Sounds like Descartes was somewhat warped.

In his world it was acceptable. He was very pious and considered animals, who, per scripture 'have no soul,' to be ethically unimportant and only there for humans.

I don't agree with him, of course, but I am just pointing out that i don't feel that just because people are cruel to dogs and endorse dog fighting that they are necessarily the same to people.

[Bob Sacamano]

Is either one necessary? Can humans get the nourishment provided by red meat from sources other than shoving a spike through a cow's head or an electrode up it's butt?

slaughtering cows is necessary, the means in which some places do it, isn't

[Crown Royal]

Good point, punk! Where I live I see all kinds of seeing-eye-cows leading the blind around and the fire department close to where I live has a trained steer that goes and helps out in fires!

The air base that I used to work for has a bomb sniffing lamb and another cow that rides around in a police car to help catch criminals.

Let's see...what else? Oh yeah, there are some chickens over here where I live that work as guard chickens in a junkcar car lot to keep theives out...so, yeah, I agree, it's blurry...indeed!


:rolleyes: :cool:

FWIW, pigs are at least as smart, if not smarter, than cats.

[superpunk]

slaughtering cows is necessary, the means in which some places do it, isn't

Why is it necessary that we slaughter cows?

[Bob Sacamano]

Why is it necessary that we slaughter cows?

so you suggest we cut strips of meat off them and keep them alive?

[superpunk]

so you suggest we cut strips of meat off them and keep them alive?

Summer - are you sure you know what "necessary" means?

[5Stars]

I don't have the slightest idea what your point is.

Domestication, punk...is the point! Cows are not domesticated, or any other animal breed for human comsumpton or killed for survival...

There a lots of animals that are of little value to the needs of society. Horses are valuable, that's why we don't eat them...same with dogs. But other animals are not really valuable in a exceptional way...and if they are not used for human comsumption...then the world would be taken over by animals!

But, I know you are smarter than that...so I don't need to try and teach you something that you should already know!

Dog fighting is a crime...there is nothing to gain by doing it for either you or the dog...

[joseephuss]

Why is it necessary that we slaughter cows?

What do you mean by that? Are you questioning killing cows for food or the method of killing them? The word slaughter does sound bad, but there are humane ways to kill an animal. A bit of a contradiction to use kill and humane in the same sentence, but I think you know what I mean.

[Bob Sacamano]

Summer - are you sure you know what "necessary" means?

no, do you know what r..e...a...c...h...i...n...g means? :rolleyes:

or how about grasping for straws?

the slaughtering of cows is necessary for human sustenance

[joseephuss]

Domestication, punk...is the point! Cows are not domesticated, or any other animal breed for human comsumpton or killed for survival...

There a lots of animals that are of little value to the needs of society. Horses are valuable, that's why we don't eat them...same with dogs. But other animals are not really valuable in a exceptional way...and if they are not used for human comsumption...then the world would be taken over by animals!

But, I know you are smarter than that...so I don't need to try and teach you something that you should already know!

Dog fighting is a crime...there is nothing to gain by doing it for either you or the dog...

Dog fighting can lead to other things. It can lead to or include gambling. Gambling can lead to or include drug use. It's a gateway crime. That is a joke, but it can be more than just dog fighting. I am not saying the Vick case is, but possibly other dog fight rings.

[5Stars]

FWIW, pigs are at least as smart, if not smarter, than cats.


I know pigs are very smart...hungry all the time too! I know a pig that is a cop...loves his donuts!

[superpunk]

What do you mean by that? Are you questioning killing cows for food or the method of killing them? The word slaughter does sound bad, but there are humane ways to kill an animal. A bit of a contradiction to use kill and humane in the same sentence, but I think you know what I mean.

Killing them at all.

no, do you know what r..e...a...c...h...i...n...g means? :rolleyes:

or how about grasping for straws?

the slaughtering of cows is necessary for human sustenance

So humanity could not survive without steak? Humans would die off, if they could not have delicious red meat?

[bbgun]

Why is it necessary that we slaughter cows?

Where else would we get footballs from? Simulated leather stinks.

[Bob Sacamano]

So humanity could not survive without steak? Humans would die off, if they could not have delicious red meat?

ok everyone, let's cut off steak from the diet

you're trying too hard punk

[Crown Royal]

ok everyone, let's cut off steak from the diet

you're trying too hard punk

I did. I don't preach to people to be vegetarians, and am purposefully trying hard to stay out of this portion of the argument. But I do think it is funny when people think the very idea of vegetarianism is ridiculous when cultures have done it for millenia.

[5Stars]

Killing them at all.



So humanity could not survive without steak? Humans would die off, if they could not have delicious red meat?


Hey, punk...what do you think would happend of the Gov outlawed killing any and all animals regardless, food or not. And this goes for insects too! Or what about not being able to pick a tomato?

:rolleyes: This freaking earth would become un-managable!

[Crown Royal]

Hey, punk...what do you think would happend of the Gov outlawed killing any and all animals regardless, food or not. And this goes for insects too! Or what about not being able to pick a tomato?

:rolleyes: This freaking earth would become un-managable!


That would be a pretty crappy government these days in this culture.

[Alexander]

I did. I don't preach to people to be vegetarians, and am purposefully trying hard to stay out of this portion of the argument. But I do think it is funny when people think the very idea of vegetarianism is ridiculous when cultures have done it for millenia.

Vegan or vegetarian?

[Bob Sacamano]

I did. I don't preach to people to be vegetarians, and am purposefully trying hard to stay out of this portion of the argument. But I do think it is funny when people think the very idea of vegetarianism is ridiculous when cultures have done it for millenia.

I don't have a problem w/ vegetarianism, but superpunk isn't a vegetarian, he's just trying too hard

[superpunk]

Where else would be get footballs from? Simulated leather stinks. ;)

This is the best point I've heard all day.

I really shouldn't have gotten back into this. It just ends up being some asinine conversation with summer about whether or not we MUST kill cows.

We do not have to kill cows. Humanely or otherwise. As it is, we do - even in a horrible way. It is completely unnecessary, but we allow it because we enjoy steaks, and because cows are not pets. You could throw any animal killing in here, and it would hold. It isn't necessary to hunt deer. It isn't necessary to boil crabs alive. but we do it because they are freaking delicious.

It is not necessary to fight dogs for entertainment. It is completely unnecessary, but some people feel that it is ok to fight them for entertainment, because they do not share the same feelings about dogs as the rest of the world does. It is wrong, and horrible, and disgusting - but so are some of the other things we do to animals. Some disgusting acts are ok because we do them to stupid, useless animals. Some aren't because people do them to animals that we consider friends. So we pass laws...

Morally - it gets a bit blurry if you're real with yourself.

[Crown Royal]

Vegan or vegetarian?

Technically pescatarian. I tried not to eat fish, but I've read enough that I consider it unhealthy.

[joseephuss]

Killing them at all.



So humanity could not survive without steak? Humans would die off, if they could not have delicious red meat?

Well, that is a different conversation.

I don't think I can be a vegetarian. Actually, I know I am not capable of it. I don't live on red meat. I eat a lot of chicken and fish, but it is the same premise of eating animals. And I eat a lot of rice, but just can't get into eating vegetables since I like so few veggies. I don't even eat much fruit although I like fruit.

I see an easy distinction between killing animals for food and killing animals for sport. I also see a clear distinction between the methods of killing animals for sport. There is a difference between hunting and fishing compared to fighting dogs. I no longer hunt or fish myself because I don't enjoy it and do see it as being somewhat wrong. I just don't think it is anywhere close to having animals fighting each other. Even chicken fighting is not as bad as dog fighting and both are very wrong in my opinion.

[Alexander]

This is the best point I've heard all day.

I really shouldn't have gotten back into this. It just ends up being some asinine conversation with summer about whether or not we MUST kill cows.

We do not have to kill cows. Humanely or otherwise. As it is, we do - even in a horrible way. It is completely unnecessary, but we allow it because we enjoy steaks, and because cows are not pets. You could throw any animal killing in here, and it would hold. It isn't necessary to hunt deer. It isn't necessary to boil crabs alive. but we do it because they are freaking delicious.

It is not necessary to fight dogs for entertainment. It is completely unnecessary, but some people feel that it is ok to fight them for entertainment, because they do not share the same feelings about dogs as the rest of the world does. It is wrong, and horrible, and disgusting - but so are some of the other things we do to animals. Some disgusting acts are ok because we do them to stupid, useless animals. Some aren't because people do them to animals that we consider friends. So we pass laws...

Morally - it gets a bit blurry if you're real with yourself.

I see what you are doing here with the hypocrisy angle.

Carry on. Off you go.

[5Stars]

That would be a pretty crappy government these days in this culture.


I'm just saying that if no amimals were killed for human comsumption or for the benefit of HUMAN BEINGS...the animals would eventually take over the planet!

I wonder how may cows are on the face of the earth right now, or pigs, or chickens or whatever else animal we eat? Could you imagine going just 10 maybe 20 years without thinning them out? :eek:

Maybe that is what Vick is doing? :confused: Maybe hes' just trying to help thin the dog populatioin?

:cool:

[Alexander]

Technically pescatarian. I tried not to eat fish, but I've read enough that I consider it unhealthy.

I see.

Just curious.

My former fiancee was a vegan.

I now consider anyone who believes in that dietary choice my mortal enemy.

You are fortunate.

[Crown Royal]

I'm just saying that if no amimals were killed for human comsumption or for the benefit of HUMAN BEINGS...the animals would eventually take over the planet!

I wonder how may cows are on the fact of the earth right now, or pigs, or chickens or whatever else animal we eat? Could you imagine going just 10 maybe 20 years without thinning them out? :eek:

Maybe that is what Vick is doing? :confused: Maybe hes' just trying to help thin the dog populatioin?

:cool:

That's not really true. There are more animals in this world BECAUSE we consume meat, not vice versa. The majority of India worshipped cows and was vegetarian for thousands of years, but they weren't exactly overrun.

[bbgun]

We do not have to kill cows. Humanely or otherwise. As it is, we do - even in a horrible way. It is completely unnecessary, but we allow it because we enjoy steaks, and because cows are not pets. You could throw any animal killing in here, and it would hold. It isn't necessary to hunt deer. It isn't necessary to boil crabs alive. but we do it because they are freaking delicious.

True. I'm no vegan, but there's not one damn thing we get from cows that we couldn't do without. We slaughter them to make out lives easier, more pleasurable. Ditto chickens, lobsters, ducks, etc.

[Crown Royal]

I see what you are doing here with the hypocrisy angle.

Carry on. Off you go.


Hypocracy is without a doubt one of the weakest moral arguments. Just because someone might be a hypocrate doesn't make them wrong.

[Crown Royal]

I see.

Just curious.

My former fiancee was a vegan.

I now consider anyone who believes in that dietary choice my mortal enemy.

You are fortunate.

LOL. I could never be vegan. I've never even considered it. I have cut back on my dairy quite a bit, but that's about it, and more to do with the fat content than any moral reservation.

[joseephuss]

I'm just saying that if no amimals were killed for human comsumption or for the benefit of HUMAN BEINGS...the animals would eventually take over the planet!

I wonder how may cows are on the fact of the earth right now, or pigs, or chickens or whatever else animal we eat? Could you imagine going just 10 maybe 20 years without thinning them out? :eek:

Maybe that is what Vick is doing? :confused: Maybe hes' just trying to help thin the dog populatioin?

:cool:

That is funny. I know you are joking, but of course we know that cows are around in such large numbers because we breed them. Stop eating them and leave them to their own devices and I don't think they procreate at the same numbers.

There is a concern, if only a small one that dog fighting rings may turn to stealing dogs to use to fight. You start losing dogs in fights you have to find replacements. Sure they can breed some, but they can also go out and steal someones else pet to use as a training dog or a fighting do.

[Bob Sacamano]

This is the best point I've heard all day.

I really shouldn't have gotten back into this. It just ends up being some asinine conversation with summer about whether or not we MUST kill cows.

I'm not saying we MUST kill cows, I'm saying slaughtering cows has a benefit, idk how you can get huffy when people don't understand you, when you're misunderstanding me right now, Mr. poor eye-sight "IT'S ALL BLURRY!" LOL

[Chocolate Lab]

I think everyone gets SP's point. It's not that hard.

Of course there exists a continuum, from killing a bacterium with penicilin or a can of Lysol to murdering other humans. Or if you want to keep it in the animal world, to maiming and killing dogs. It's no revelation that we as a society have to draw a line somewhere between what is morally and legally acceptable and what is not. The vast majority of people draw the line somewhere before the painful execution of Man's Best Friend, which is why there is such moral outrage at this crime from all walks of society.

I mean, it's obvious that Vick and Portis and T and Q draw that line somewhere differently than most people do... But that doesn't make them right. If we all got to draw that line where we wanted, we'd have chaos.

[5Stars]

That's not really true. There are more animals in this world BECAUSE we consume meat, not vice versa. The majority of India worshipped cows and was vegetarian for thousands of years, but they weren't exactly overrun.

India is just one part of the earth. :rolleyes: I'm talking about the whole freaking planet!

Have you ever killed a fly...swatted a fly, a mosquito...stepped on an ant!

That is what it boils down too from what punk is saying...he thinks there is no difference in killing a cow vs. what a domesticated animal is all about. He says, "why kill cows"? Well!

[superpunk]

I see what you are doing here with the hypocrisy angle.

Carry on. Off you go.
It's not about hypocrisy.

Just seeing things from different angles.

[Crown Royal]

I think everyone gets SP's point. It's not that hard.

Of course there exists a continuum, from killing a bacterium with penicilin or a can of Lysol to murdering other humans. Or if you want to keep it in the animal world, to maiming and killing dogs. It's no revelation that we as a society have to draw a line somewhere between what is morally and legally acceptable and what is not. The vast majority of people draw the line somewhere before the painful execution of Man's Best Friend, which is why there is such moral outrage at this crime from all walks of society.

I mean, it's obvious that Vick and Portis and T and Q draw that line somewhere differently than most people do... But that doesn't make them right. If we all got to draw that line where we wanted, we'd have chaos.

Post of the thread, by far. The fact is that we as a society have collectively agreed that dogfighting is more atrocious than slaughtering cows, for whatever reason. I mean, you can make arguments to the contrary, and that might be a good argument. But the fact remains that the majority in US society feel this way.

[Crown Royal]

India is just one part of the earth. :rolleyes: I'm talking about the whole freaking planet!

Have you ever killed a fly...swatted a fly, a mosquito...stepped on an ant!

That is what it boils down too from what punk is saying...he thinks there is no difference in killing a cow vs. what a domesticated animal is all about. He says, "why kill cows"? Well!

India is a pretty big part of the earth. There is simply no reason to believe that humans keep the population of pigs, chickens and cows in check and that they would take over. In fact, quite the opposite, they would probably dwindle as there are not many wild animals like that left.

As far as insects, I can't say I haven't. I've killed many animals, including deer, squirrels, all kinds of birds, even dogs (euthenized and one mongrel in the country when I was a kid). But I do abstain from it now.

And Punk isn't saying that that is what he believes - he is playing devils advocate. And while I don't agree, I can see how there are those who would believe that there is no difference between killing a cow and a dog. I don't agree with that, but I can certainly understand it. A fine distinction.

[5Stars]

That is funny. I know you are joking, but of course we know that cows are around in such large numbers because we breed them. Stop eating them and leave them to their own devices and I don't think they procreate at the same numbers.



I'm not joking at all...

You leave animals to their own ways, let the free and let them live how they want? This planet would be overrun by the animals in 20 or 30 years...

You would not be able to travel on mountain roads without hitting a deer in a mile or so...

What about if the Gov made fishing illegal because it's the same as killing a cow to eat? The ocean would turn into a cesspool and we humans would all die in short order...

;)

There are distinctions between domsticated animals and wild animals and animals breed for human survival/comsumption...because if you DON'T kill or thin them out...they will eventually eat you...

[Bob Sacamano]

And Punk isn't saying that that is what he believes - he is playing devils advocate. And while I don't agree, I can see how there are those who would believe that there is no difference between killing a cow and a dog. I don't agree with that, but I can certainly understand it. A fine distinction.

one is for human consumption, the other is for entertainment

it's a huge difference

[Crown Royal]

I'm not joking at all...

You leave animals to their own ways, let the free and let them live how they want? This planet would be overrun by the animals in 20 or 30 years...

You would not be able to travel on mountain roads without hitting a deer in a mile or so...

What about if the Gov made fishing illegal because it's the same as killing a cow to eat? The ocean would turn into a cesspool and we humans would all die in short order...

;)

There are distinctions between domsticated animals and wild animals and animals breed for human survival/comsumption...because if you DON'T kill or thin them out...they will eventually eat you...

You do realize that cattle populations weren't cultivated until about 200 years or so ago, right? Same with chickens and pigs.

At no time in the history of the world has there been as many of the above mentioned animals as there are now.

Meat used to be a luxury, not a staple.

[Crown Royal]

one is for human consumption, the other is for entertainment

it's a huge difference

Of course there is a difference in their purpose. My point is that there are plenty of people who value the life of a dog no more than that of a cow, chicken, paramecium or sponge.

And like I said, I don't agree with that, just stating that there are those who feel that way.

Mostly I can understand them because I used to feel the exact same way.

[joseephuss]

I'm not joking at all...

You leave animals to their own ways, let the free and let them live how they want? This planet would be overrun by the animals in 20 or 30 years...

You would not be able to travel on mountain roads without hitting a deer in a mile or so...

What about if the Gov made fishing illegal because it's the same as killing a cow to eat? The ocean would turn into a cesspool and we humans would all die in short order...

;)

There are distinctions between domsticated animals and wild animals and animals breed for human survival/comsumption...because if you DON'T kill or thin them out...they will eventually eat you...

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply all animals. I was just talking about cows. They won't take over the world. Now pigs will. Wild hogs and such are taking over right now. Deer as well. I don't know about the ocean. I won't worry about them until they learn to maneuver on land. I don't swim in open water, so I got no problems with fishes and such.

[5Stars]

You do realize that cattle populations weren't cultivated until about 200 years or so ago, right? Same with chickens and pigs.

At no time in the history of the world has there been as many of the above mentioned animals as there are now.

Meat used to be a luxury, not a staple.


No...man has been killing animals to eat since day one! You let animals to their own accord, which man has not done, and see where it goes from there...

:cool:

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Domestication, punk...is the point! Cows are not domesticated, or any other animal breed for human comsumpton or killed for survival...

There a lots of animals that are of little value to the needs of society. Horses are valuable, that's why we don't eat them...same with dogs. But other animals are not really valuable in a exceptional way...and if they are not used for human comsumption...then the world would be taken over by animals!

But, I know you are smarter than that...so I don't need to try and teach you something that you should already know!

Dog fighting is a crime...there is nothing to gain by doing it for either you or the dog...

I don't know if dogs are valuable in the normal sense of value. My little guy is precious as hell but he is not a very economic unit. It costs at least 2000 a year to feed, clothe and keep him as healthy as a nine year old dog can be.

[bbgun]

I'm not joking at all...

You leave animals to their own ways, let the free and let them live how they want? This planet would be overrun by the animals in 20 or 30 years...

You would not be able to travel on mountain roads without hitting a deer in a mile or so...

Actually, animals do a pretty good job of thinning each other out. Hell, domesticated cats kill 20 million songbirds every year. Even without human culling, excess animals would simply fall by the wayside due to inadequate food supply.

[5Stars]

I don't know about the ocean. I won't worry about them until they learn to maneuver on land. I don't swim in open water, so I got no problems with fishes and such.


You don't need to swim in the ocean to understand that if all ocean life was left to it's own accord and nobody could fish because it's on the same level as fighting dogs...the ocean would become a cesspool and the earth would literally die of thirst...

[CanadianCowboysFan]

No...man has been killing animals to eat since day one! You let animals to their own accord, which man has not done, and see where it goes from there...

:cool:

It is true though that we eat more meat now than ever before.

[5Stars]

I don't know if dogs are valuable in the normal sense of value. My little guy is precious as hell but he is not a very economic unit. It costs at least 2000 a year to feed, clothe and keep him as healthy as a nine year old dog can be.


That is why a dog is domesticated. Do you fight your dog?

[superpunk]

You don't need to swim in the ocean to understand that if all ocean life was left to it's own accord and nobody could fish because it's on the same level as fighting dogs...the ocean would become a cesspool and the earth would literally die of thirst...

http://www.lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg

[Crown Royal]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply all animals. I was just talking about cows. They won't take over the world. Now pigs will. Wild hogs and such are taking over right now. Deer as well. I don't know about the ocean. I won't worry about them until they learn to maneuver on land. I don't swim in open water, so I got no problems with fishes and such.

Wild/feral pigs and domesticated pigs are different. Most of what we eat couldn't survive in the wild, and would probably become instinct unless they reverted to their wild origins.

Deer are already considered a nuicance - but not so much because we don't eat them, but because we are working on eradicating wolves & bears.

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Actually, animals do a pretty good job of thinning each other out. Hell, domesticated cats kill 20 million songbirds every year. Even without human culling, excess animals would simply fall by the wayside due to inadequate food supply.

Yep, if the predators kill all the prey, the predators start to die off from starvation.

[Bob Sacamano]

5stars, have you ever heard of survival of the fittest?

the process of natural selection?

[CanadianCowboysFan]

That is why a dog is domesticated. Do you fight your dog?

I'll never tell.

[Crown Royal]

No...man has been killing animals to eat since day one! You let animals to their own accord, which man has not done, and see where it goes from there...

:cool:

I already gave you an example of men leaving animals to their own accord. India is a pretty large country with a relatively large population. There are other asian cultures I can cite that have been predominantly veg.

Man has never eaten as much meat as they do now in the West.

[03EBZ06]

Vick's alleged actions has cause end of the world, be afraid, very afraid.

[Crown Royal]

http://www.lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg


:lmao2::lmao2:

[StonetheCrow77]

this is a pretty easy conversation to end... if you are a true animal rights activist, then what you believe in should be the death of humanity... cause that's the only way to fix it... if you want to preach animal rights, then you can't own anything made of wood, nothing made of leather, nothing made out of wool, nothing made out of any metal... you can not live in a house, you can not drive a car... basically, you can't believe in civilization... chopping down tress to make anything out of wood or mining ore's to make anything metal kills animals habitats... building cities kills habitats... autos and any other pollutant kill habitats... Simply our living kills more animals and is more cruel than any breed farm animal put to slaughter...

It's simple... if you want to support animal rights, kill yourself...

[5Stars]

Even without human culling, excess animals would simply fall by the wayside due to inadequate food supply.


Exactely, bbgun...and the same thing might/could apply to humans if they did not consume animals, right?

What is it called? Darwins Theory..."only the strong survive"? Something like that?

All I'm saying is that killing animals for food or survival is neccesary...and fighting dogs is not! That is the distinction.

Also, if you don't thin the herd...they WILL take over! That is what the ecosystem of the earth is all about...you stop one thing (killing any animals) and we are screwed!


Could you imagine what that would be like! :eek:

[Crown Royal]

this is a pretty easy conversation to end... if you are a true animal rights activist, then what you believe in should be the death of humanity... cause that's the only way to fix it... if you want to preach animal rights, then you can't own anything made of wood, nothing made of leather, nothing made out of wool, nothing made out of any metal... you can not live in a house, you can not drive a car... basically, you can't believe in civilization... chopping down tress to make anything out of wood or mining ore's to make anything metal kills animals habitats... building cities kills habitats... autos and any other pollutant kill habitats... Simply our living kills more animals and is more cruel than any breed farm animal put to slaughter...

It's simple... if you want to support animal rights, kill yourself...


The all or nothing approach lol.:rolleyes:

[5Stars]

It is true though that we eat more meat now than ever before.


Yes...

Next question?

What would happen if we did not eat all that meat?

[Crown Royal]

Yes...

Next question?

What would happen if we did not eat all that meat?

We'd eat more carrots.

[bbgun]

What would happen if we did not eat all that meat?

Is this the set-up to a dirty joke? :-)

[superpunk]

this is a pretty easy conversation to end... if you aretruly against animal rights, then what you believe in should be the death of the animal kingdom... cause that's the only way to fix it... if you want to preach against animal rights, then you can't own any pets, you can't allow any animals to live, you have to smite down dogs, cats, cows, monkfish, meerkats...

It's simple... if you want to be against animal rights, kill your pets...




see what I did there? it's as good a time as any for white text..

[StonetheCrow77]

The all or nothing approach lol.:rolleyes:

of course it's over dramatic... I just don't like people preaching about silly things, like people choosing to eat meat... it's the same thing as owning anything made out of wood... do you own anything wood? if so, you helped kill your little owl in your avatar...

[5Stars]

this is a pretty easy conversation to end... if you are a true animal rights activist, then what you believe in should be the death of humanity... cause that's the only way to fix it... if you want to preach animal rights, then you can't own anything made of wood, nothing made of leather, nothing made out of wool, nothing made out of any metal... you can not live in a house, you can not drive a car... basically, you can't believe in civilization... chopping down tress to make anything out of wood or mining ore's to make anything metal kills animals habitats... building cities kills habitats... autos and any other pollutant kill habitats... Simply our living kills more animals and is more cruel than any breed farm animal put to slaughter...

It's simple... if you want to support animal rights, kill yourself...


Thanks...I'm done here!

;) Good post...

[Crown Royal]

this is a pretty easy conversation to end... if you aretruly against animal rights, then what you believe in should be the death of the animal kingdom... cause that's the only way to fix it... if you want to preach against animal rights, then you can't own any pets, you can't allow any animals to live, you have to smite down dogs, cats, cows, monkfish, meerkats...

It's simple... if you want to be against animal rights, kill your pets...




see what I did there? it's as good a time as any for white text..

Monkfish frighten me.

[StonetheCrow77]

this is a pretty easy conversation to end... if you aretruly against animal rights, then what you believe in should be the death of the animal kingdom... cause that's the only way to fix it... if you want to preach against animal rights, then you can't own any pets, you can't allow any animals to live, you have to smite down dogs, cats, cows, monkfish, meerkats...

It's simple... if you want to be against animal rights, kill your pets...




see what I did there? it's as good a time as any for white text..


I ate dog stew in Korea... it was pretty good...

[Bob Sacamano]

I can't see, the line's blurry!

[Crown Royal]

of course it's over dramatic... I just don't like people preaching about silly things, like people choosing to eat meat... it's the same thing as owning anything made out of wood... do you own anything wood? if so, you helped kill your little owl in your avatar...

That's like saying that just because I can't end hunger in Africa I shouldn't feed a child I meet there. I can't do everything, but I can do some things.

[jackrussell]

Ludicrous leap in logic.

Color me ludicrous.

"Hey Mike, can you dog sit for me for a couple of weeks."

Yeah....right.

[StonetheCrow77]

That's like saying that just because I can't end hunger in Africa I shouldn't feed a child I meet there. I can't do everything, but I can do some things.

And by all means keep doing them... I'm not saying it's a bad thing... my whole argument to begin with was that there is by no means a gray area when it comes to the difference between dog fighting and killing cows to eat...

the rest just got off topic...

[heavyg]

I like dogs, and I think puppies are adorable, yada yada yada...

but do you find it odd that we are outraged that someone could do this to animals we consider pets - but we don't care what people do to our food before we get that hamburger or veal? I realize the difference between entertainment and food - but it's cruel either way, and both are techncally unecessary.

I mean, technically, isn't horse racing pretty cruel in the name of entertainment? Circuses? I don't know. I can see where people would say "it's just a dog". Why do we determine that it is fine for us to dominate one kind of animal but live in partnership with another?

I think if people really think on that for a while, they can acknowledge that the line is at least a little blurry.


I think the difference in a racing horse and these dogs are that the horses are not killed or injured. They are very well taken care of. These fighting dogs are not. They are half starved so they will fight harder. Put on chains and left outside never having human contact except when its time to fight. One of the sad things about the pitbull situation is that pits by nature LOVE people. But because of idiots like Mike Vick and others they are looked at as devil dogs. I personally own 3 pits. All three are very lovable and wouldn't hurt anyone. IF Vick is found guilty he should be put under the jail not in it. Same goes for anyone who would harm a child

[Alexander]

:money:.

They are going to have 30 million less of these to pay anyone.

I doubt Culpepper ends up in Atlanta.

[5Stars]

this is a pretty easy conversation to end... if you aretruly against animal rights, then what you believe in should be the death of the animal kingdom... cause that's the only way to fix it... if you want to preach against animal rights, then you can't own any pets, you can't allow any animals to live, you have to smite down dogs, cats, cows, monkfish, meerkats...

It's simple... if you want to be against animal rights, kill your pets...




see what I did there? it's as good a time as any for white text..

Hey...you're the one that started it...sucker!


:laugh1: How should we kill them? :confused:

[Hostile]

They are going to have 30 million less of these to pay anyone.

I doubt Culpepper ends up in Atlanta.I wasn't predicting that he would, just saying I would 86 Vick and do something else. I mentioned reuniting Brohm and Petrino too.

[Alexander]

LOL. I could never be vegan. I've never even considered it. I have cut back on my dairy quite a bit, but that's about it, and more to do with the fat content than any moral reservation.

Just to set the record straight, she was not a vegan when I met her. She flaked out and decided to go that direction.

She was an imbecile.

But quite the "go-er".

Wink wink, nudge nudge.

[Yeagermeister]

That is why a dog is domesticated. Do you fight your dog?

Hellz yeah and whoop is arse every time :D

[Bob Sacamano]

Hellz yeah and whoop is arse every time :D

:laugh1:

[5Stars]

Hellz yeah and whoop is arse every time :D


You should try and take a towel out of the mouth of a 5 year old St. Bernard! Good luck with that!

;)

[Crown Royal]

Just to set the record straight, she was not a vegan when I met her. She flaked out and decided to go that direction.

She was an imbecile.

But quite the "go-er".

Wink wink, nudge nudge.

Say no more, say no more.

[superpunk]

Let's say I was an alien, with no earthly moral background.

How would you explain why it's ok to do nasty things to cows and other animals, but dogs and cats are off limits? How would you justify other nations' treatments of dogs and cats - murdering them, eradicating them, eating them - as opposed to our treatment?

Just a possibly interesting excercise - if anyone can manage it....

[Bob Sacamano]

Let's say I was an alien, with no earthly moral background.

How would you explain why it's ok to do nasty things to cows and other animals, but dogs and cats are off limits? How would you justify other nations' treatments of dogs and cats - murdering them, eradicating them, eating them - as opposed to our treatment?

Just a possibly interesting excercise - if anyone can manage it....

1st off, I would welcome you to Earth, then pop a cap in yo ***, and make money off 'ya

[superpunk]

1st off, I would welcome you to Earth, then pop a cap in yo ***, and make money off 'ya

Thanks, summer.

I appreciate all your articulate, well thought out and rational contributions to this thread.

[Bob Sacamano]

Thanks, summer.

I appreciate all your articulate, well thought out and rational contributions to this thread.

:jerk: all over you, I think this topic has been thoroughly beat to death already

I'm right, you're wrong ;)

[heavyg]

Wild/feral pigs and domesticated pigs are different. Most of what we eat couldn't survive in the wild, and would probably become instinct unless they reverted to their wild origins.



Oh I disagree with you on this. Most of the wild pigs around here were actually domesticated hogs that either got lose or were let go. So a pig can and will revert back to their wild orgins

[5Stars]

Let's say I was an alien, with no earthly moral background.

How would you explain why it's ok to do nasty things to cows and other animals, but dogs and cats are off limits? How would you justify other nations' treatments of dogs and cats - murdering them, eradicating them, eating them - as opposed to our treatment?

Just a possibly interesting excercise - if anyone can manage it....


Then you would not have been born...as a human?

alien.com might help you?

Next question? :rolleyes:









(white text)








:confused:

[Crown Royal]

Oh I disagree with you on this. Most of the wild pigs around here were actually domesticated hogs that either got lose or were let go. So a pig can and will revert back to their wild orgins

Which is why I said unless they reverted back.

[superpunk]

Thanks, 5stars - you cleared everything up. Were I an actual alien, I would have recognized the differences immediately from your thoughtful explanation. I can always count on you.

[Bob Sacamano]

awww, whatsha matta punk, we're not witty like you?

[5Stars]

Thanks, 5stars - you cleared everything up. Were I an actual alien, I would have recognized the differences immediately from your thoughtful explanation. I can always count on you.


If you were an actual alien (:rolleyes: ) and came down to Earth?

Leave what is called a "woman" alone! Don't touch them...they belong to us!

:mad:

[Kangaroo]

Personally, I'm hoping knife-fighting makes a comeback. Or duels....those were the days...

Watch The Movie The duelist based on a true story has Harvey Keitel and Keith Carradine directed by Ridley Scott (yes the guy that did gladiator)

[Yeagermeister]

You should try and take a towel out of the mouth of a 5 year old St. Bernard! Good luck with that!

;)

I have a 123 lb pit boxer mix :D

[DallasEast]

Well, it's been fun reading this thread. People (again) comparing dogs and cows, dogs with cats, dogs with anything standing on two or four legs, serial killers, morality, whatever.



Dog fighting is against the law. What's to argue?



Hellooooo?

[03EBZ06]

Dog fighting is against the law. What's to argue?



Hellooooo?

But, but, but...some will try to rationalize bad behaviors, no matter what it is.

[superpunk]

Dog fighting is against the law. What's to argue?
come on - if you had read it, you would know. ;)

[peplaw06]

Good thread...

"What do necessary mean?"

[Crown Royal]

Good thread...

"What do necessary mean?"

I see what you did there.

[baj1dallas]

God you're dishonest. I predicted that Sharp would throw a hissyfit if Goodell decided to suspend Vick ahead of the trial. That hasn't happened yet. Now I see that Sharp has decided to stick his nose in this anyway. BTW, who asked him to? How exactly is the good Reverend relevant to this case? Is he Vick's agent? Spiritual adviser? Or does he just pop up whenever a stripper cries rape? The mystery widens.


It's called being a leader. People look to him to speak for them.

[Faerluna]

But quite the "go-er".

Wink wink, nudge nudge.

A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat!

:cool:

[cowboyed]

This interests me from a certain stand point.

The commish has came down hard on some players recently.

Now this whole Vick thing is going on.

I wonder if he will come down as hard on Vick.

Here is why I wonder about it.

Tank Johnson, Pac Man Jones and Chris Henry are not in the status of a Vick.

By status I mean it as a Franchise QB for a team and a very popular person in the NFL.

Jerk or not Vick has made money for the NFL. They have hyped him up on ESPN and other sports networks. He goes to the Pro-Bowl. Has had many sponsors. He is viewed as a young QB for todays NFL.

So in that aspect he is not like the others who have recently got in trouble.

Now I don't know if the Commish will be harsher on him since Vick is more of a superstar and in turn gets more negative press for the NFL. Will he be less harsh on him as millions of young people idolize him and watch the game because of him, helps sell jerseys and so on.

Just something to watch here. I don't know if the commish will be consistant with Vicks punishment or if he goes a little more one way or the other.


The Commish is well advised by his NFL legal staff. Furthermore Vick, or any other employee of the NFL could be suspended or even banned for a non-illegal act. Vick could be seriously violating rules of conduct stipulated in all player contracts.

The NFL governing body is not stupid and they also are aware of the ramifications if they egregiously cut slack to a superstar player. The impact of providing preferential treatment to Vick would hurt the NFL and undermine the credibility of all that enforce the rules.

Then there is the personal moral groundedness that all of them must contend with. In a nutshell the NFL will go out of its way to ensure that their decision making and actions regarding Vick wil be balanced in the utmost.

[burmafrd]

moral relativism. Just love the contortions someone has to go through to defend it. Trying to say that a slap to the face is the same as a steel toed boot to the ribs.

[jay cee]

I like dogs, and I think puppies are adorable, yada yada yada...

but do you find it odd that we are outraged that someone could do this to animals we consider pets - but we don't care what people do to our food before we get that hamburger or veal? I realize the difference between entertainment and food - but it's cruel either way, and both are techncally unecessary.

I mean, technically, isn't horse racing pretty cruel in the name of entertainment? Circuses? I don't know. I can see where people would say "it's just a dog". Why do we determine that it is fine for us to dominate one kind of animal but live in partnership with another?

I think if people really think on that for a while, they can acknowledge that the line is at least a little blurry.

Good point, and what about hunting for sport. If the guy was going around the world blasting lions and tigers. Most wouldn't have a problem with it.

It's funny how people sensibilities work. I think hunting is just as disgusting as dogfighting myself.

[ConcordCowboy]

I think hunting is just as disgusting as dogfighting myself.

Me Too.

[DallasEast]

Good point, and what about hunting for sport. If the guy was going around the world blasting lions and tigers. Most wouldn't have a problem with it.

It's funny how people sensibilities work. I think hunting is just as disgusting as dogfighting myself.I've never been against hunting or fishing out of necessity. Some people have to do one or both so that they can feed themselves and/or their families. It's hunting or fishing when you don't have to which I disagree with. If the option of buying food exists for you and it's not a true burden to do so, then hunting or fishing essentially becomes a luxury indulgence which 'justifies' killing for sport only.

[fiveandcounting]

[QUOTE=StonetheCrow77;1554600]Anyone who writes a joint letter with PETA has to be an idiot...

even, though, in this case, they are correct...[/QUOTE

dont agree

[jay cee]

I've never been against hunting or fishing out of necessity. Some people have to do one or both so that they can feed themselves and/or their families. It's hunting or fishing when you don't have to which I disagree with. If the option of buying food exists for you and it's not a true burden to do so, then hunting or fishing essentially becomes a luxury indulgence which 'justifies' killing for sport only.

I know, I can somewhat accept those that at least hunt prey animals so they can eat what they kill, but to just kill for the fun of it, man I don't get the attraction.

[Doomsday101]

I know, I can somewhat accept those that at least hunt prey animals so they can eat what they kill, but to just kill for the fun of it, man I don't get the attraction.

I agree. I think as long as the hunter or fisherman is obeying the laws there is nothing wrong or cruel in what they are doing. I clearly do not see the comparison of this and dog fighting.

[Hostile]

Can you imagine if you are a player on the Falcons looking ahead to this year? Every question from the media is going to be about this. You're going to hear boos in your own stadium. Imagine what it's going to be like in other stadiums. Imagine the signs you're going to see. Imagine the picket lines by PETA and the Humane Society in every city. I can almost imagine the turmoil of whether you go to Bobby Petrino and ask him to remove the albatross so the team can go on. Or I can imagine actually hoping for the Commissioner to act and suspend him. Being an Atlanta Falcons player in 2007 is going to suck if Vick is allowed to play.

[dogunwo]

I like dogs, and I think puppies are adorable, yada yada yada...

but do you find it odd that we are outraged that someone could do this to animals we consider pets - but we don't care what people do to our food before we get that hamburger or veal? I realize the difference between entertainment and food - but it's cruel either way, and both are techncally unecessary.

I mean, technically, isn't horse racing pretty cruel in the name of entertainment? Circuses? I don't know. I can see where people would say "it's just a dog". Why do we determine that it is fine for us to dominate one kind of animal but live in partnership with another?

I think if people really think on that for a while, they can acknowledge that the line is at least a little blurry.
On the same lines, I never understood why hunting for sport is so widely accepted. Isnt that fundamentally the same thing? The opponents of those who say its the same as boxing, say the animals dont have a choice. Well, they dont have a choice in being hunted for entertainment either. I find hunting and dogfighting both despicable.

[Sam I Am]

The Sharpton thing is funny b/c another poster railed against him yesterday with regards to how Al would come out to defend Vick at any moment.

Personally, I can't stand Sharpton. I believe he is a masked jackel hiding his real agenda (fame and fortune) behind "protecting the public". One thing he wouldn't do is protect Vick. If anything he just wouldn't say anything and stay beneath the radar. In this case that wouldn't happen as the media has been probing him for comment on the Vick story. To keep up his charade, he has no choice but to condemn Vick publicly.

[Calvin2Tony2Emmitt2Julius]

Originally Posted by burmafrd
I cannot find myself agreeing with PETA without wanting to truly hurl.
But their point about those who are cruel to animals being risks to others is borne out by studies on serial killers. Virtually every one of them were cruel to animals. In many cases what they did to animals as kids they did to people as adults.

This is the leap in faith I find crazy. Plenty of little boys have done something to an animal. It's called being a little boy. Many people are cruel to animals, to say someone who is cruel to animals has anything to do with psychotics is just plain wrong and over the top.

Micheal Vick, if found guilty should be punished okay. Just getting that out of the way because I know what's coming. It is a crime and if convicted he should be punished. But, Looking at some of the post as well as some of the other things I have read on this matter, let's just say it is eye opening.

He has NO Prior convictions, and In our judicial system they use it. They use it to give repeat offender's more time. They use it to give Good people who do stupid things and get caught up Probabtion. Some people with the Blood lust for Vick's head may not like it but that is what it is.

And yes, I know it is popular to say the whole (Gagging) animals are people too stuff is the new elightened badge of honor but Yes, like it or not, fact is we are talking about DOGS here. People get less for killing humans under the right circumstances. Again Dog fighting is stupid, It is cruel and personally I think the dude needs to get over the whole culture and everyting attached to it. But it is what it is. It goes on Nationwide and People get caught and do not spend jail time, they do not loose their jobs. They loose their animals and pay fines.

Just because Vick can afford it and would not Die and Go away like many would like Does not change anything. The punishment should fit the crime.

Rats are animals-killed with impunity
alligators are animals- Killed for shoes
Seals are animals-killed for vanity
Minks are animals- killed So wealthy men can have sex
Chimpanzees are animals- killed to satisfy mans curiosity about everything form asprin ingestion to nuclear exposure

On and On ...

I disagree with P.E.T.A but I can at least respect them. They are outraged about all animal cruelty. The newfound Dog lovers I find hyporcritical.

As an aside I want to see some of the takes the next time a kid is mauled to death by one of these Gentle, Loving, Wise, Magestic creatures, for no other reason than the kid was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I love my dog but I realize that it is an animal.

[AbeBeta]

Personally, I can't stand Sharpton. I believe he is a masked jackel hiding his real agenda (fame and fortune) behind "protecting the public". One thing he wouldn't do is protect Vick. If anything he just wouldn't say anything and stay beneath the radar. In this case that wouldn't happen as the media has been probing him for comment on the Vick story. To keep up his charade, he has no choice but to condemn Vick publicly.

Usually when people have to twist and turn to interpret someone's actions -- e.g., he doesn't REALLY believe this he's just saying it to promote agenda X instead of image Y -- it suggests too much of a stretch.

[Sam I Am]

Usually when people have to twist and turn to interpret someone's actions -- e.g., he doesn't REALLY believe this he's just saying it to promote agenda X instead of image Y -- it suggests too much of a stretch.

To much ambiguity in your statement. I don't know if you're agreeing with me or declaring what I said a stretch. :huh:

[peplaw06]

I've never been against hunting or fishing out of necessity. Some people have to do one or both so that they can feed themselves and/or their families. It's hunting or fishing when you don't have to which I disagree with. If the option of buying food exists for you and it's not a true burden to do so, then hunting or fishing essentially becomes a luxury indulgence which 'justifies' killing for sport only.
Which leads me to my original question.... What do necessary mean?

If you go fishing for sport, and release your catch, is that inhumane?

[DallasEast]

Can you imagine if you are a player on the Falcons looking ahead to this year? Every question from the media is going to be about this. You're going to hear boos in your own stadium. Imagine what it's going to be like in other stadiums. Imagine the signs you're going to see. Imagine the picket lines by PETA and the Humane Society in every city. I can almost imagine the turmoil of whether you go to Bobby Petrino and ask him to remove the albatross so the team can go on. Or I can imagine actually hoping for the Commissioner to act and suspend him. Being an Atlanta Falcons player in 2007 is going to suck if Vick is allowed to play.
I can imagine the friction between diehard Falcon fans and the boo birds (no pun intended). It wouldn't surprise me if a number of fights between spectators in the stands will be caught on camera this fall. I'm sure that Arthur Blanks will love seeing that happen in the Georgia Dome.

[aikemirv]

Originally Posted by burmafrd
I cannot find myself agreeing with PETA without wanting to truly hurl.
But their point about those who are cruel to animals being risks to others is borne out by studies on serial killers. Virtually every one of them were cruel to animals. In many cases what they did to animals as kids they did to people as adults.

This is the leap in faith I find crazy. Plenty of little boys have done something to an animal. It's called being a little boy. Many people are cruel to animals, to say someone who is cruel to animals has anything to do with psychotics is just plain wrong and over the top.

Micheal Vick, if found guilty should be punished okay. Just getting that out of the way because I know what's coming. It is a crime and if convicted he should be punished. But, Looking at some of the post as well as some of the other things I have read on this matter, let's just say it is eye opening.

He has NO Prior convictions, and In our judicial system they use it. They use it to give repeat offender's more time. They use it to give Good people who do stupid things and get caught up Probabtion. Some people with the Blood lust for Vick's head may not like it but that is what it is.

And yes, I know it is popular to say the whole (Gagging) animals are people too stuff is the new elightened badge of honor but Yes, like it or not, fact is we are talking about DOGS here. People get less for killing humans under the right circumstances. Again Dog fighting is stupid, It is cruel and personally I think the dude needs to get over the whole culture and everyting attached to it. But it is what it is. It goes on Nationwide and People get caught and do not spend jail time, they do not loose their jobs. They loose their animals and pay fines.

Just because Vick can afford it and would not Die and Go away like many would like Does not change anything. The punishment should fit the crime.

Rats are animals-killed with impunity
alligators are animals- Killed for shoes
Seals are animals-killed for vanity
Minks are animals- killed So wealthy men can have sex
Chimpanzees are animals- killed to satisfy mans curiosity about everything form asprin ingestion to nuclear exposure

On and On ...

I disagree with P.E.T.A but I can at least respect them. They are outraged about all animal cruelty. The newfound Dog lovers I find hyporcritical.

As an aside I want to see some of the takes the next time a kid is mauled to death by one of these Gentle, Loving, Wise, Magestic creatures, for no other reason than the kid was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I love my dog but I realize that it is an animal.

Very nice. Well said.

[Doomsday101]

I can imagine the friction between diehard Falcon fans and the boo birds (no pun intended). It wouldn't surprise me if a number of fights between spectators in the stands will be caught on camera this fall. I'm sure that Arthur Blanks will love seeing that happen in the Georgia Dome.

Which is why Blank is going to hire Michael Buffer for the pre game introduction and then "Lets get ready to rumble" :lmao2:

[aikemirv]

Which leads me to my original question.... What do necessary mean?

If you go fishing for sport, and release your catch, is that inhumane?

Yes it is, and I fish for them with minnows and grasshoppers that I put hooks through their backs.

[peplaw06]

Originally Posted by burmafrd
I cannot find myself agreeing with PETA without wanting to truly hurl.
But their point about those who are cruel to animals being risks to others is borne out by studies on serial killers. Virtually every one of them were cruel to animals. In many cases what they did to animals as kids they did to people as adults.

This is the leap in faith I find crazy. Plenty of little boys have done something to an animal. It's called being a little boy. Many people are cruel to animals, to say someone who is cruel to animals has anything to do with psychotics is just plain wrong and over the top.

Micheal Vick, if found guilty should be punished okay. Just getting that out of the way because I know what's coming. It is a crime and if convicted he should be punished. But, Looking at some of the post as well as some of the other things I have read on this matter, let's just say it is eye opening.

He has NO Prior convictions, and In our judicial system they use it. They use it to give repeat offender's more time. They use it to give Good people who do stupid things and get caught up Probabtion. Some people with the Blood lust for Vick's head may not like it but that is what it is.

And yes, I know it is popular to say the whole (Gagging) animals are people too stuff is the new elightened badge of honor but Yes, like it or not, fact is we are talking about DOGS here. People get less for killing humans under the right circumstances. Again Dog fighting is stupid, It is cruel and personally I think the dude needs to get over the whole culture and everyting attached to it. But it is what it is. It goes on Nationwide and People get caught and do not spend jail time, they do not loose their jobs. They loose their animals and pay fines.

Just because Vick can afford it and would not Die and Go away like many would like Does not change anything. The punishment should fit the crime.

Rats are animals-killed with impunity
alligators are animals- Killed for shoes
Seals are animals-killed for vanity
Minks are animals- killed So wealthy men can have sex
Chimpanzees are animals- killed to satisfy mans curiosity about everything form asprin ingestion to nuclear exposure

On and On ...

I disagree with P.E.T.A but I can at least respect them. They are outraged about all animal cruelty. The newfound Dog lovers I find hyporcritical.

As an aside I want to see some of the takes the next time a kid is mauled to death by one of these Gentle, Loving, Wise, Magestic creatures, for no other reason than the kid was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I love my dog but I realize that it is an animal.

The facts are that most serial killers start out torturing animals... You know those logic games, where you have to figure out if X=Y??

All widgets are snazzles... Are all snazzles widgets? The answer is no.

It's the same here. Let's say for arguments sake that all serial killers torture animals. Does that mean that all people who torture animals are serial killers? No. That's a misapplication of logic.

[AbeBeta]

To much ambiguity in your statement. I don't know if you're agreeing with me or declaring what I said a stretch. :huh:

Stretch -- you are going around and around to say attribute something to Al while ignoring the simpler interpretation -- that he thinks dogfighting is bad.

[DallasEast]

Which leads me to my original question.... What do necessary mean?

If you go fishing for sport, and release your catch, is that inhumane?In those terms, I would agree that it is a humane practice. As long as the amount of fish caught doesn't exceed what the fisherman expects to consume for himself or herself, his or her family, or what was requested of him or her to catch for someone else, I wouldn't have a problem.

[DallasEast]

Which is why Blank is going to hire Michael Buffer for the pre game introduction and then "Lets get ready to rumble" :lmao2:Now THAT would be funny! :laugh1:

[Sam I Am]

Stretch -- you are going around and around to say attribute something to Al while ignoring the simpler interpretation -- that he thinks dogfighting is bad.

I never said he didn't think dog fighting is bad. I said he does what he does for fame and fortune and likes to draw "careful lines" in the dirt that divide improperly. Lets just call it in 1310's words "His Schtick".

Anyone that thinks dog fighting is not cruel and is "OK" has deeper issues than just wanting fame and fortune.

[peplaw06]

In those terms, I would agree that it is a humane practice. As long as the amount of fish caught doesn't exceed what the fisherman expects to consume for himself or herself, his or her family, or what was requested of him or her to catch for someone else, I wouldn't have a problem.

Yes, but is it necessary for him and his family to eat fish? Or does he just like the taste?

And as far as the catch and release stuff... you're still catching them, usually with a sharp hook through the mouth. Can't really feel good.

Look, I'm no animal activist or PETA member, far from it... I eat all kinds of meat. But I don't pretend that it is "necessary" for me to do so to survive. You can survive without meat, people do it all the time. But I like it, so I eat it.

I think the line is blurry, like SP is saying, but it's kind of like the definition of obscene. I can't tell you what is "too inhumane," but I know it when I see it. Dogfighting serves little purpose, and shocks the senses.

But then again, seldom is any issue black and white.

[Crown Royal]

Yes, but is it necessary for him and his family to eat fish? Or does he just like the taste?

And as far as the catch and release stuff... you're still catching them, usually with a sharp hook through the mouth. Can't really feel good.

Look, I'm no animal activist or PETA member, far from it... I eat all kinds of meat. But I don't pretend that it is "necessary" for me to do so to survive. You can survive without meat, people do it all the time. But I like it, so I eat it.

I think the line is blurry, like SP is saying, but it's kind of like the definition of obscene. I can't tell you what is "too inhumane," but I know it when I see it. Dogfighting serves little purpose, and shocks the senses.

But then again, seldom is any issue black and white.

As a vegetarian who is that way because I can't feel ethical about killing something unnecessarily, I will say that I do find necessity in eating fish. The amount of Omega 3 you get from fish is very healthy, and incredibly difficult to match from items like spinach and walnuts.

Further, the people who live the longest tend to have diets that include mostly fruit/vegetables/grains and some fish.

[bbgun]

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5490/07192007cg6.jpg

[Crown Royal]

^^ el oh el

[Stautner]

As a vegetarian who is that way because I can't feel ethical about killing something unnecessarily, I will say that I do find necessity in eating fish. The amount of Omega 3 you get from fish is very healthy, and incredibly difficult to match from items like spinach and walnuts.

Further, the people who live the longest tend to have diets that include mostly fruit/vegetables/grains and some fish.

This thread has taken a funny turn.

While fish may be healthier than beef, beef is still food, so isn't is a little hypocritical to condemn killing cattle for food and support killing fish for food?

The fence riding position kind of puzzles me - shouldn't it either be wrong or right to kill animals for their meat?

I personally can respect either viewpoint, but as for me I justify it by believing we are just part of the food chain like every other creature, and us eating meat is no more or less ethical than a lion eating a gazelle.

[Crown Royal]

This thread has taken a funny turn.

While fish may be healthier than beef, beef is still food, so isn't is a little hypocritical to condemn killing cattle for food and support killing fish for food?

The fence riding position kind of puzzles me - shouldn't it either be wrong or right to kill animals for their meat?

I personally can respect either viewpoint, but as for me I justify it by believing we are just part of the food chain like every other creature, and us eating meat is no more or less ethical than a lion eating a gazelle.

I tried to be a complete vegetarian and not eat fish, but I had some health side affects and read some more on it.

Simply, if something is necessary for me to survive healthfully, then I don't see how I can find it unethical. I need fish to maximize my health, it is a necessary function. It doesn't necessarily diminish the fish's right to life in my viewpoint, but my need outweighs it.

On the other hand, beef is not a necessity for me to be healthy in any sense, and might even serve to hurt my health in some ways. It is just as simple not to eat beef as to eat it, with no poor health side affects.

That's the distinction.

[Vtwin]

I've never been against hunting or fishing out of necessity. Some people have to do one or both so that they can feed themselves and/or their families. It's hunting or fishing when you don't have to which I disagree with. If the option of buying food exists for you and it's not a true burden to do so, then hunting or fishing essentially becomes a luxury indulgence which 'justifies' killing for sport only.

So buying a steak that came from a steer that went through the meat packing process is OK but making a clean kill on a deer that will be cut up and eaten during the winter is not?This is delusional at best.That meat you buy all nicely wrapped in the case at the grocery store used to have a face you know. Chances are it's "life" was much less "fulfilling" and came to a more painful and tragic end then the deer in my freezer did.Oh, Vick is a scumbag who should cut up and fed to the dogs.

[Jarv]

I tried to be a complete vegetarian and not eat fish, but I had some health side affects and read some more on it.

Simply, if something is necessary for me to survive healthfully, then I don't see how I can find it unethical. I need fish to maximize my health, it is a necessary function. It doesn't necessarily diminish the fish's right to life in my viewpoint, but my need outweighs it.

On the other hand, beef is not a necessity for me to be healthy in any sense, and might even serve to hurt my health in some ways. It is just as simple not to eat beef as to eat it, with no poor health side affects.

That's the distinction.

How can you feel good about yourself knowing that plants are living things and you kill them for food...

:rolleyes:

[Sam I Am]

So buying a steak that came from a steer that went through the meat packing process is OK but making a clean kill on a deer that will be cut up and eaten during the winter is not?This is delusional at best.That meat you buy all nicely wrapped in the case at the grocery store used to have a face you know. Chances are it's "life" was much less "fulfilling" and came to a more painful and tragic end then the deer in my freezer did.Oh, Vick is a scumbag who should cut up and fed to the dogs.

Killing for survival and killing for sport are two different things.

[Crown Royal]

How can you feel good about yourself knowing that plants are living things and you kill them for food...

:rolleyes:

Is this a real question? I'm more than happy to answer, but I am really not in this thread to preach vegetarianism to anyone. I have just responded to questions about mine.

[Vtwin]

Killing for survival and killing for sport are two different things.

No argument here.The poster I was responding to was saying something different though.He said that hunting was wrong if one could easily BUY their meat instead.That is delusional as the animal which supplied the boughten meat most likely "suffered" much more then the "wild" animal I shot for my meat.Another relevant point that I did not attempt to make is that in many areas and for many game animals hunting is the only viable natural managment system now that there is less range and far less natural predators. Seeing deer starving through a winter because there is to many for the ranges is not a pretty sightI have no respect for "trophy" hunters.

[Sam I Am]

Is this a real question? I'm more than happy to answer, but I am really not in this thread to preach vegetarianism to anyone. I have just responded to questions about mine.

:D Both plants and animals are both carbon based. Both die when you eat them. You are a horrible plant terrorist!

http://2.forumer.com/uploads/metanet/post-7-1106028395.jpg

[Jarv]

No argument here.The poster I was responding to was saying something different though.He said that hunting was wrong if one could easily BUY their meat instead.That is delusional as the animal which supplied the boughten meat most likely "suffered" much more then the "wild" animal I shot for my meat.Another relevant point that I did not attempt to make is that in many areas and for many game animals hunting is the only viable natural managment system now that there is less range and far less natural predators. Seeing deer starving through a winter because there is to many for the ranges is not a pretty sightI have no respect for "trophy" hunters.

Bingo, I told a story here once about my 1st hunting trip at 13. My cousin and I shot some squirles (After deer hunting) and my Father and Uncles made us skin them and eat them.

Taught us only to hunt for food. Same with fishing, I was never a ctach and release guy.

[Vtwin]

Bingo, I told a story here once about my 1st hunting trip at 13. My cousin and I shot some squirles (After deer hunting) and my Father and Uncles made us skin them and eat them.

Taught us only to hunt for food. Same with fishing, I was never a ctach and release guy.

Yup,I've had discussions with some of the soccer mom types at work who tell me that hunting is deplorable , while they are eating a cheeseburger.I tell them that if I were running the show everyone who wanted to eat meat would have to kill and clean something at least once so they would truly understand the consequences of their choices. There is no free lunch. Pun intended. lol

[Crown Royal]

Yup,I've had discussions with some of the soccer mom types at work who tell me that hunting is deplorable , while they are eating a cheeseburger.I tell them that if I were running the show everyone who wanted to eat meat would have to kill and clean something at least once so they would truly understand the consequences of their choices. There is no free lunch. Pun intended. lol

I make no distinction between hunting and buying the meat off the rack. The ends are the same, it is just the means that changed.

[Sam I Am]

Yup,I've had discussions with some of the soccer mom types at work who tell me that hunting is deplorable , while they are eating a cheeseburger.I tell them that if I were running the show everyone who wanted to eat meat would have to kill and clean something at least once so they would truly understand the consequences of their choices. There is no free lunch. Pun intended. lol
http://www.petakids.com/grrr301/meanto.gif

[Crown Royal]

http://www.petakids.com/grrr301/meanto.gif

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Whoever drew that sucks.

[Sam I Am]

I make no distinction between hunting and buying the meat off the rack. The ends are the same, it is just the means that changed.

I love tender juicy beef.

http://www.triroc.com/caroladams/images/slideshow10.jpg

[Sam I Am]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Whoever drew that sucks.

Rolling with the pictures today!

http://txtees.com/catalog/images/Eat%20Pork.jpg

[Crown Royal]

Rolling with the pictures today!

http://txtees.com/catalog/images/Eat%20Pork.jpg

I don't get this one.:confused:

[Vtwin]

I love tender juicy beef.

http://www.triroc.com/caroladams/images/slideshow10.jpg

Hey!Why does my beef smell like fish!?lol

[Sam I Am]

I don't get this one.:confused:

Umm... PORK

[03EBZ06]

Hey!Why does my beef smell like fish!?lol
Probably because it was still pink.

[BouncingCheese]

"Civil rights leader Al sharpton"

.....

**** Al Sharpton.

**** Al sharpton

***-hat.

urghhhhh....

[Pats Fan]

Originally Posted by burmafrd
I cannot find myself agreeing with PETA without wanting to truly hurl.
But their point about those who are cruel to animals being risks to others is borne out by studies on serial killers. Virtually every one of them were cruel to animals. In many cases what they did to animals as kids they did to people as adults.

This is the leap in faith I find crazy. Plenty of little boys have done something to an animal. It's called being a little boy. Many people are cruel to animals, to say someone who is cruel to animals has anything to do with psychotics is just plain wrong and over the top.

Micheal Vick, if found guilty should be punished okay. Just getting that out of the way because I know what's coming. It is a crime and if convicted he should be punished. But, Looking at some of the post as well as some of the other things I have read on this matter, let's just say it is eye opening.

He has NO Prior convictions, and In our judicial system they use it. They use it to give repeat offender's more time. They use it to give Good people who do stupid things and get caught up Probabtion. Some people with the Blood lust for Vick's head may not like it but that is what it is.

And yes, I know it is popular to say the whole (Gagging) animals are people too stuff is the new elightened badge of honor but Yes, like it or not, fact is we are talking about DOGS here. People get less for killing humans under the right circumstances. Again Dog fighting is stupid, It is cruel and personally I think the dude needs to get over the whole culture and everyting attached to it. But it is what it is. It goes on Nationwide and People get caught and do not spend jail time, they do not loose their jobs. They loose their animals and pay fines.

Just because Vick can afford it and would not Die and Go away like many would like Does not change anything. The punishment should fit the crime.

Rats are animals-killed with impunity
alligators are animals- Killed for shoes
Seals are animals-killed for vanity
Minks are animals- killed So wealthy men can have sex
Chimpanzees are animals- killed to satisfy mans curiosity about everything form asprin ingestion to nuclear exposure

On and On ...

I disagree with P.E.T.A but I can at least respect them. They are outraged about all animal cruelty. The newfound Dog lovers I find hyporcritical.

As an aside I want to see some of the takes the next time a kid is mauled to death by one of these Gentle, Loving, Wise, Magestic creatures, for no other reason than the kid was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I love my dog but I realize that it is an animal.

You are a mean little minded person. May your kind please go away. Maybe we can throw you to the ground in death, or maybe drowning would suit you better, or maybe electrocution after water was throw on you.

Sorry bud, you have a very sick mind.

[AbeBeta]

boy, this thread keeps getting classier....

[Pats Fan]

And one more comment. I grew up in Southern California, moved to Virginia (short period of time), and then on to New England.

I was never exposed to people that are so mean. Nasty, disgusting.

I moved to Dallas for a job in the mid '80's. We went to the State Fair. While there, there were animals for sale. There was a pen with lots of pigs and this mean SOB who had -- I think you call it a prod -- it had electricity in it. He was torturing this poor pig. Hitting it with the prod and laughing - enjoying every moment. The pig was screaming in agony. I simply could not take it -- I blew into that guy. He stopped. I basically said, isn't it bad enough they have to die, but you have to torture them.

I simply do not, will never understand you SOB's that think that hurting and abusing anyone is not disgusting. And I assure you, if you would do that to an animal, a human is OK to.

You are disgusting.

[Crown Royal]

And I assure you, if you would do that to an animal, a human is OK to.


That just isn't true.