Obama: Don’t stay in Iraq over genocide

[ConcordCowboy]

Obama: Don’t stay in Iraq over genocide

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19862711/

Updated: 12:58 a.m. PT July 20, 2007
SUNAPEE, N.H. - Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama said Thursday the United States cannot use its military to solve humanitarian problems and that preventing a potential genocide in Iraq isn’t a good enough reason to keep U.S. forces there.

“Well, look, if that’s the criteria by which we are making decisions on the deployment of U.S. forces, then by that argument you would have 300,000 troops in the Congo right now — where millions have been slaughtered as a consequence of ethnic strife — which we haven’t done,” Obama said in an interview with The Associated Press.

“We would be deploying unilaterally and occupying the Sudan, which we haven’t done. Those of us who care about Darfur don’t think it would be a good idea,” he said.

Obama, a first-term senator from Illinois, said it’s likely there would be increased bloodshed if U.S. forces left Iraq.

“Nobody is proposing we leave precipitously. There are still going to be U.S. forces in the region that could intercede, with an international force, on an emergency basis,” Obama said between stops on the first of two days scheduled on the New Hampshire campaign trail. “There’s no doubt there are risks of increased bloodshed in Iraq without a continuing U.S. presence there.”

The greater risk is staying in Iraq, Obama said.

“It is my assessment that those risks are even greater if we continue to occupy Iraq and serve as a magnet for not only terrorist activity but also irresponsible behavior by Iraqi factions,” he said.

Fierce critic
The senator has been a fierce critic of the war in Iraq, speaking out against it even before he was elected to his post in 2004. He was among the senators who tried unsuccessfully earlier this week to force President Bush’s hand and begin to limit the role of U.S. forces there.

“We have not lost a military battle in Iraq. So when people say if we leave, we will lose, they’re asking the wrong question,” he said. “We cannot achieve a stable Iraq with a military. We could be fighting there for the next decade.”

Obama said the answer to Iraq — and other civil conflicts — lies in diplomacy.

“When you have civil conflict like this, military efforts and protective forces can play an important role, especially if they’re under an international mandate as opposed to simply a U.S. mandate. But you can’t solve the underlying problem at the end of a barrel of a gun,” he said. “There’s got to be a deliberate and constant diplomatic effort to get the various factions to recognize that they are better off arriving at a peaceful resolution of their conflicts.”

GOP: ‘Obama can’t seem to make up his mind’
The Republican National Committee accused Obama of changing his position on the war.

“Barack Obama can’t seem to make up his mind,” said Amber Wilkerson, an RNC spokeswoman. “First he says that a quick withdrawal from Iraq would be ’a slap in the face’ to the troops, and then he votes to cut funding for our soldiers who are still in harm’s way. Americans are looking for principled leadership — not a rookie politician who is pandering to the left wing of his party in an attempt to win an election.”

Obama, who has expressed reservations about capital punishment but does not oppose it, said he would support the death penalty for Osama bin Laden, the mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks.

“The first thing I’d support is his capture, which is something this administration has proved incapable of achieving,” Obama said. “I would then, as president, order a trial that observed international standards of due process. At that point, do I think that somebody who killed 3,000 Americans qualifies as someone who has perpetrated heinous crimes, and would qualify for the death penalty. Then yes.”

Sex education for kindergartners?
In response to criticism from Republican Mitt Romney, Obama said the former Massachusetts governor was only trying to “score cheap political points” when he told a Colorado audience that Obama wanted sex education for kindergartners.



Sex education for kindergarteners?

July 19: At a forum for Planned Parenthood, Sen. Barack Obama said that "age appropriate" sex education for kindergarten students is the "right thing to do." MSNBC’s David Shuster reports.
Hardball


“All I said was that I support the same laws that exist in Massachusetts and New Hampshire, in which local communities and parents can make decisions to provide children with the information they need to deal with sexual predators,” Obama said.

Romney on Wednesday targeted Obama for supporting a bill during his term in the Illinois state Senate that would have, among other things, provided age-appropriate sex education for all students.

“How much sex education is age appropriate for a 5-year-old? In my mind, zero is the right number,” Romney said.

Obama said Romney was wrong to take the shot and incorrect on its basis.

“We have to deal with a coarsening of the culture and the over-sexualization of our young people. Look, I’ve got two daughters, 9 and 6 years old,” Obama told the AP. “Of course, part of the coarsening of that culture is when politicians try to demagogue issues to score cheap political points.”

“What we shouldn’t do is to try to play a political football with these issues and express them in ways that are honest and truthful,” Obama said. “Certainly, what we shouldn’t do is engage in hypocrisy.”

Romney himself once indicated support for similar programs that Obama supports.

In 2002, Romney told Planned Parenthood in a questionnaire that he also supported age-appropriate sex education. He checked yes to a question that asked: “Do you support the teaching of responsible, age-appropriate, factually accurate health and sexuality education, including information about both abstinence and contraception, in public schools?”

© 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[03EBZ06]

Politicians with weak stomach and lack of resolve shouldn't dictate what military should do. This guy sounds just like those politicians who couldn't stomach Vietnam war. Have we not learn from past mistakes?

[burmafrd]

Diplomacy with Al Queda, Syria and Iran. The main players in Iraq. How anyone can say that with a straight face......

[BrAinPaiNt]

Politicians with weak stomach and lack of resolve shouldn't dictate what military should do. This guy sounds just like those politicians who couldn't stomach Vietnam war. Have we not learn from past mistakes?

You mean like George W Bush who never went to viet nam so he could work on someone's election and is currently running the war?

Or like VP Dick Cheney who had deferments and is quoted as saying..."I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."

Or how about Donald Rumsfeld...did he serve in any war...nope.

Or what about Paul Wolfowitz...nope he had a deferment during Viet Nam

Or Karl Rove...nope he had deferments.

How about the current candidates for the next presidential election.

Hillary..nope
Barrack Obama...Nope
John Edwards...Nope
Al Gore...Yes and No He was in viet Nam but was in for less than six months.

Fred Thompson...Nope
Rudy Giuliani...Nope
Mitt Romney...Nope
John McCain...The only member that was a Vet and saw war and was a POW.



So basically none of the current key members in the administration served IN Viet Nam or other combat areas. And only One (McCain) and a half (gore) of the top 8 possible nominees to become the next president served in Viet Nam or combat.

You might just want to rethink your strategy on this one.:)

Note to all..if any of those are incorrect please let me know.

Here is something that is really fascinating. How it is always said that Dems are wimps when it comes to war and so on.

Check this list out. If you find any inaccuracies with it let me know. I did not do the research on this specific list nor did I provide any of the comments with it.

Prominent Democrats

* Senator Jim Webb (D-VA) -- rifle platoon and company commander with the Fifth Marine Regiment in the An Hoa Basin west of Danang; was awarded the Navy Cross, the Silver Star Medal, two Bronze Star Medals, and two Purple Hearts. (1)

* Representative Tim Walz, D-MN - Twenty-four years of service in the Army National Guard, retiring in 2005.

* Representative Joe Sestak, D-PA - 31 years of service in the Navy, rising to the rank of Vice Admiral.

* Representative Chris Carney, D-PA - Lieutenant Commander in the United States Naval Reserve, Carney served multiple tours overseas and was activated for Operation Enduring Freedom, Noble Eagle, and Southern Watch.

* Representative Patrick Murphy, D-PA - extensive career in the U.S. Army from 1993-2004; earned Bronze Star and Presidential Unit Citation.

* Representative Phil Hare, D-IL - Served in the United States Army Reserve for six years.

* Representative Jack Murtha (D-PA) - distinguished 37-year career in the U.S. Marine Corps, Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, retired from the Marine Corps Reserve as a colonel in 1990. (1)

* Former House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71. (1, 2)

* Representative David Bonior - Staff Sgt., United States Air Force 1968-72 (1, 2)

* Former Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72 (1, 2)

* Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon. More facts about Gore's Service

* Former Senator Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam (1, 2)

* Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two (1, 2)

* Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat (1)
* Representative Charles Rangel, Staff Sgt., U.S. Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea (1, 2)

* Former Senator Max Cleland, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam (1, 2)

* Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953. (1)

* Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. (1, 2)

* Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91 (1)

* Former Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. (1)

* Representative Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - Lt. Col., U.S. Army 1956-76; two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. (1, 2)

* Former Representative "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit. (1, 2)

* Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. (1, 2)

* Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V." (1)

* Gray Davis, former California Governor, Army Captain in Vietnam; received Bronze Star. (1)

* Pete Stark, D-CA, served in the Air Force 1955-57

* Wesley Clark, Democratic Presidential Candidate - 38-year career of public service in the Army, culminating as Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.


Prominent Republicans

# Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)

# Senate Assistant Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-MI - avoided the draft, did not serve.

# Senate Republican Conference Chairman Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve.

# National Republican Senatorial Committee Chair John Ensign, R-NV - did not serve.

# House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-OH - did not serve.

# House Minority Whip Roy Blunt, R-MO - did not serve.

# House Republican Conerence Chair Adam Putnam, R-FL - did not serve.

# House Republican Policy Committee Thaddeus McCotter, R-MI - did not serve.

# National Republican Congressional Committee Chair Tom Cole, R-OK - did not serve.

# Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani - did not serve.

# Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney - did not serve in the military but did serve the Mormon Church on a 30-month mission to France.

# Former Senator Fred Thompson - did not serve.

# Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did the Bush campaign smear him so in 2000? At least Senators Cleland (D-GA), Kerry (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Robb (D-VA) and Hagel (R-NE) defended him.

* Former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.

* Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."

* Former House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve

* Former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)

* Rick Santorum, R-PA, formerly third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)

* George Felix Allen, former Republican Senator from Virginia - a supporter of Nixon and the Vietnam war, did not serve. (1)


* Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.

* GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?

* VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)

* Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

* Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)

* Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

* Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)

* Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.

* "B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.

* Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments

* Former Senator Bob Dole - an honorable man. http://www.bobdole.org/bio/wwII.php

* Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam. http://www.senate.gov/~hagel/Information/bio.htm

* Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations Recently entered plea bargain on felony charges of bribery, etc. etc.

* Senator Jeff Sessions U.S. Army Reserves, 1973-1986

* Colin Powell. What are we to make of Powell? On the one hand, a long career as a military manager. On the other hand, accused of covering up the My Lai massacre. Back on that first hand, one of the seemingly sane voices in this administration when it comes to Iraq (or at least he used to be). On the other hand, a clear hypocrite ("I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...")

* Representative Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD), served in USMC in Vietnam; wounded in action.

[junk]

# Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney - did not serve in the military but did serve the Mormon Church on a 30-month mission to France.



* Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.


:laugh2: Those were both pretty funny.

I just found out the other day that Karl Rove doesn't even have a college degree. He's probably just short an ethics class or two.

[ConcordCowboy]

You mean like George W Bush who never went to Vietnam so he could work on someone's election and is currently running the war?

Or like VP Dick Cheney who had deferments and is quoted as saying..."I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."

Or how about Donald Rumsfeld...did he serve in any war...nope.

Or what about Paul Wolfowitz...nope he had a deferment during Viet Nam

Or Karl Rove...nope he had deferments.



Yeah they sure have a stomach for War now.

Now that they don't actually have to fight and can send other young men and women to die.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Yeah they sure have a stomach for War now.

Now that they don't actually have to fight and can send other young men and women to die.

And then have the nerve to attack those that have been in war, have earned honors and medals and question their patriotism.

I remember when that one fool questioned Murtha in the manner she did. :banghead:

You may not like the man, you may not agree with his stances, but don't call out a highly decorated marine veteran of Viet Nam...by relaying a story and saying Cowards cut and run Marines do not.

[Danny White]

Obama is right, of course, in saying that stopping genocide is no reason to deploy our troops, but I don't think anyone is really claiming that is the sole reason we're still in Iraq.

The more pressing issues are that of stability in the region vis a vis our own national security and other national interests. If the Congo affected us somehow, we'd probably be in there.

By the way, did Obama object to Clinton involving us in Bosnia?

[BrAinPaiNt]

Obama is right, of course, in saying that stopping genocide is no reason to deploy our troops, but I don't think anyone is really claiming that is the sole reason we're still in Iraq.

The more pressing issues are that of stability in the region vis a vis our own national security and other national interests. If the Congo affected us somehow, we'd probably be in there.

By the way, did Obama object to Clinton involving us in Bosnia?

It was one of the reasons "given" for going into Iraq however.

As to the Obama question...did he hold any office, even state office, at that time?

He was not on the hill at the time but I am not even sure he was holding a state position at that time.

[Danny White]

It was one of the reasons "given" for going into Iraq however.

As to the Obama question...did he hold any office, even state office, at that time?

He was not on the hill at the time but I am not even sure he was holding a state position at that time.

I don't mind it being "a" reason we get involved, just not "the" reason. Call it a good side-effect of deposing a tyrant.

As for Obama, I'm just curious now what he thinks... since he wants to be President. What kind of intervention does he find appropriate and for what reason? We have a lot of candidates blasting the war now and calling for us to get out... but what kind of intervention will they practice once they're in charge?

I just see a lot of criticism and not a lot of specifics on what he'd do in various circumstances if he were President.

[BrAinPaiNt]

I don't mind it being "a" reason we get involved, just not "the" reason. Call it a good side-effect of deposing a tyrant.

As for Obama, I'm just curious now what he thinks... since he wants to be President. What kind of intervention does he find appropriate and for what reason? We have a lot of candidates blasting the war now and calling for us to get out... but what kind of intervention will they practice once they're in charge?

I just see a lot of criticism and not a lot of specifics on what he'd do in various circumstances if he were President.

Can't honestly say about him or a great deal of them.

I think Ron Paul was the only one that has addressed that, at least the only one I saw address it.

I am sure you have heard him speak about it so I won't go into it.

[iceberg]

Obama is right, of course, in saying that stopping genocide is no reason to deploy our troops, but I don't think anyone is really claiming that is the sole reason we're still in Iraq.

The more pressing issues are that of stability in the region vis a vis our own national security and other national interests. If the Congo affected us somehow, we'd probably be in there.

By the way, did Obama object to Clinton involving us in Bosnia?

i reject his other arguments unless we're the fundamental cause of the other regions doing their "Cleansing". we started this in iraq and we need to see it through as best we can. collateral noise isn't going to help any.

[jterrell]

i reject his other arguments unless we're the fundamental cause of the other regions doing their "Cleansing". we started this in iraq and we need to see it through as best we can. collateral noise isn't going to help any.

And I reject your argument because it is without a conclusion ever.

That land has been fought over based on religious ideology for thousands of years and a few more years of our Troops catching bullets is not going to change it.

If we want to finish it then send a nuke.

Standing there as guards with big bright targets on our backs isn't finishing anything.

Reports are widespread that terrorist activity has grown in the area immensely since we invaded and shows no signs of letting up.

The sad thing is Osama was smarter than us. He said he would milk us financially and he has. Some friggin mopheaded hate-mongering jack-arse living in a hole is smarter than our entire government? That makes me wanna puke.

[bbgun]

Fine. Let's consign the people of Darfur to hell too. Something tells me he'd be whistling a different tune about that area of the world. So much for the moral high ground. Worse, Obama's argument leaves no room for any kind of humanitarian intervention. Between this and advocating sex ed for kindergardeners, he's having a whale of a week.

[iceberg]

And I reject your argument because it is without a conclusion ever.

That land has been fought over based on religious ideology for thousands of years and a few more years of our Troops catching bullets is not going to change it.

If we want to finish it then send a nuke.

Standing there as guards with big bright targets on our backs isn't finishing anything.

Reports are widespread that terrorist activity has grown in the area immensely since we invaded and shows no signs of letting up.

The sad thing is Osama was smarter than us. He said he would milk us financially and he has. Some friggin mopheaded hate-mongering jack-arse living in a hole is smarter than our entire government? That makes me wanna puke.

what do the holy lands being at war forever (and they have been) nave to do with ethnic cleansing in various parts of africa? nothing.

that's all i'm saying. to say we've no business in iraq because of the turmoil it will create w/us NOT being there isn't any different than the turmoil elsewhere is just a red herring. we didn't start it elsewhere and we did kick this one in the pants. our repsponsibility is to try and finish it up.

otherwise what if we said "fine, we'll go on crusade and get africa next" would that make the obama happy? or are smart alec situations supposed to be taken seriously?

[Sasquatch]

The sad thing is Osama was smarter than us. He said he would milk us financially and he has. Some friggin mopheaded hate-mongering jack-arse living in a hole is smarter than our entire government? That makes me wanna puke.

That's because what most people fail to realize is that the greatest threat to our country isn't an actual terrorist attack but how we respond to it. They've succeeded in goading us to doing more damage to ourselves than their bombs ever could have.

[jterrell]

Fine. Let's consign the people of Darfur to hell too. Something tells me he'd be whistling a different tune about that area of the world. So much for the moral high ground. Worse, Obama's argument leaves no room for any kind of humanitarian intervention. Between this and advocating sex ed for kindergardeners, he's having a whale of a week.

sigh... Please read articles before criticizing them. He stated we are not in Darfur and used that as an example including his takes there.

Whether you agree or not blind criticism is silly.

[AtlCB]

Prominent Democrats

* Senator Jim Webb (D-VA) -- rifle platoon and company commander with the Fifth Marine Regiment in the An Hoa Basin west of Danang; was awarded the Navy Cross, the Silver Star Medal, two Bronze Star Medals, and two Purple Hearts. (1)

* Representative Tim Walz, D-MN - Twenty-four years of service in the Army National Guard, retiring in 2005.

* Representative Joe Sestak, D-PA - 31 years of service in the Navy, rising to the rank of Vice Admiral.

* Representative Chris Carney, D-PA - Lieutenant Commander in the United States Naval Reserve, Carney served multiple tours overseas and was activated for Operation Enduring Freedom, Noble Eagle, and Southern Watch.

* Representative Patrick Murphy, D-PA - extensive career in the U.S. Army from 1993-2004; earned Bronze Star and Presidential Unit Citation.

* Representative Phil Hare, D-IL - Served in the United States Army Reserve for six years.

* Representative Jack Murtha (D-PA) - distinguished 37-year career in the U.S. Marine Corps, Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, retired from the Marine Corps Reserve as a colonel in 1990. (1)

* Former House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71. (1, 2)

* Representative David Bonior - Staff Sgt., United States Air Force 1968-72 (1, 2)

* Former Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72 (1, 2)

* Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon. More facts about Gore's Service

* Former Senator Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam (1, 2)

* Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two (1, 2)

* Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat (1)
* Representative Charles Rangel, Staff Sgt., U.S. Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea (1, 2)

* Former Senator Max Cleland, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam (1, 2)

* Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953. (1)

* Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. (1, 2)

* Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91 (1)

* Former Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. (1)

* Representative Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - Lt. Col., U.S. Army 1956-76; two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. (1, 2)

* Former Representative "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit. (1, 2)

* Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. (1, 2)

* Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V." (1)

* Gray Davis, former California Governor, Army Captain in Vietnam; received Bronze Star. (1)

* Pete Stark, D-CA, served in the Air Force 1955-57

* Wesley Clark, Democratic Presidential Candidate - 38-year career of public service in the Army, culminating as Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.

You think these guys would be a little more sensitive to the ridiculously low wages that enlisted personnel receive.

[joseephuss]

* Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations Recently entered plea bargain on felony charges of bribery, etc. etc.

I saw Duke was on one of the first Dog Fights. I think it was before Dog Fights actually became a series.

He is currently in jail I believe. Took the most bribes in congressional history if I heard correctly. He kept a bribe menu showing the price for services. Lived on a lot given to him by a defense contractor called The Dukester.


Back to the original post. I was against the war, but thought that once we go in we have to do a good job. I am not sure the leadership is doing a good job. Pull out? I am just not sure. Something needs to change because the goals are just not being met.

[burmafrd]

Brain, got to give you credit. You almost make your far left one sidedness almost believable. FOrgot to mention that Murtha SHOULD have been one of those going down for taking bribes.
By the way- just serving does not mean they learned anything while there. Kerry certainly did not. I have run into all too many politicians who happen to wear uniforms. Weasles and liars just like un uniformed politicians.
I noticed for all your panning of Bush you proudly mention Dems in the reserves.

[ThreeSportStar80]

Can someone honestly define "victory on the war against terrorism"...

[BrAinPaiNt]

Brain, got to give you credit. You almost make your far left one sidedness almost believable. FOrgot to mention that Murtha SHOULD have been one of those going down for taking bribes.
By the way- just serving does not mean they learned anything while there. Kerry certainly did not. I have run into all too many politicians who happen to wear uniforms. Weasles and liars just like un uniformed politicians.
I noticed for all your panning of Bush you proudly mention Dems in the reserves.

It seems your one sidedness is evident to me.

Especially with your wilson rhetoric.

I never claimed the people who served there country were GOOD politicians.

If you would know my stances in the past you would know I could not stand Kerry.

FURTHER if you would actually take time to read someone's post, and articles for that matter, you would read where I said I did not MAKE the list and I could not verify if it was completely accurate.

And yet another thing. I never said that those serving would know better about war, it was the idea that those that DID NOT SERVE IN WAR were more apt to put Americans into a war.

So please, how about actually reading the posts and articles and not lecturing anyone else about their one sidedness.:eek:

[ThreeSportStar80]

Politicians with weak stomach and lack of resolve shouldn't dictate what military should do. This guy sounds just like those politicians who couldn't stomach Vietnam war. Have we not learn from past mistakes?

Weak resolve? The war was a huge mistake.... Mr. Obama was one of the few opposing the war in the Senate.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Weak resolve? The war was a huge mistake.... Mr. Obama was one of the few opposing the war in the Senate.

Ron Paul was another.

[windward]

Can someone honestly define "victory on the war against terrorism"...
Considering that terrorism has eisted in one form or another since time immemorial, I'm afraid it's a war that can never really be ended. Especially when there is the question of who or what determines who or what is a terrorist or terrorism.

This idea of there being a monolithic entity called terrorism is a fallacy ( a dangerous one when it impacts national security strategies)

[jterrell]

Brain, got to give you credit. You almost make your far left one sidedness almost believable. FOrgot to mention that Murtha SHOULD have been one of those going down for taking bribes.
By the way- just serving does not mean they learned anything while there. Kerry certainly did not. I have run into all too many politicians who happen to wear uniforms. Weasles and liars just like un uniformed politicians.
I noticed for all your panning of Bush you proudly mention Dems in the reserves.

Burma,

Did you serve?
Not meant to offend just as a measure?

I know plenty of Repubs and Dems that have served and respect them all equally for their service. At least the ones who actually served and did not partake in political campaigns or argue that all the minorities kept them away.....

FWIW I did not enter the military in any capacity but did have both grandfathers(WWII), my dad(Vietnam) and 1 brother(current but not in Iraq... yet) in the military. I think the military is extremely important but also realize the soldiers are completely at the mercy of the President at the time.

[arglebargle]

There's some real 'throw good money after bad' thinking going on here. Because we screwed up the occurpation due to arrogance and bad planning, we should continue to lose soldiers, and act as a recruiting tool for Al Qaeda?

Once the money is in the pot, it is no longer yours. Betting on a losing hand is a fools proposition.

IIRC the Brits took 20 years to pacify Iraq when they cobbled it together. And they did not have all the other local powers to deal with that we have today. Twenty years..... you want to go through a fighting occupation for 20 years on the poor chance that it will succeed?