Children's Shows in Palestine...

[trickblue]

One of the many reasons there will never be peace in the Middle East...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tneSE6nJiLw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Flittlegreenfootballs.com%2Fweblo g%2F (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tneSE6nJiLw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Flittlegreenfootballs.com%2Fweblo g%2F)

By the way, Farfur is the Mickey Mouse clone character that they were using a few months back...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqthkdPaa2I&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Flittlegreenfootballs.com%2Fweblo g%2F

[BrAinPaiNt]

Saw a similar one a few months ago, I think it was a few months ago.

It was basically the same type of hate rhetoric but the character was a blatant rip off of Mickey Mouse.

The hate rhetoric aside I just found it ironic that they would rip off Mickey Mouse. I guess the idea that they hate western ideals and such but pick a character to rip off that is a huge part of Americana.

Just crazy.

[burmafrd]

And these are the people you claim hate us because of Iraq, brain?

[BrAinPaiNt]

And these are the people you claim hate us because of Iraq, brain?

Do you claim they hate us for our freedoms? Do you really think these people hate us for our freedoms?

Iraq is just one SMALL part of it.

Shall I give you a long list of things or would you like to drop it before it makes you look bad?

[arglebargle]

And these are the people you claim hate us because of Iraq, brain?


It's one thing when the bad evil guy is way way over there, but far different when he comes gunning through your neighborhood.

[AtlCB]

Do you claim they hate us for our freedoms? Do you really think these people hate us for our freedoms?

Iraq is just one SMALL part of it.

Shall I give you a long list of things or would you like to drop it before it makes you look bad?These people hate us, because we aren't Muslim. They also hate us, because we support a Jewish state in the Middle East. I doubt this group would hate us any less if we were not in Iraq.

[BrAinPaiNt]

These people hate us, because we aren't Muslim. They also hate us, because we support a Jewish state in the Middle East. I doubt this group would hate us any less if we were not in Iraq.

And they hate use because we stick our nose in their business, have used them to do our dirty work, try to dictate policy, nation build, help put dictators in power and so on.

As I said Iraq is just a SMALL part of it.

However I have heard time and time again that they just hate us for our freedom...which is silly.

[Vintage]

Basically, I have no reason to make this post, but I will anyway.

As already summed up by brainpaint, they hate us because we continue to interfere in the Middle East, where we are not wanted.

Only truly naive (and I am putting this politely, there is a much better word I would love to use) people think its because of our 'freedoms.'

We interfere with the Middle East. Regardless of whether or not we are doing the correct thing....it matters not. We were involved with Kuwait/Iraq (rightfully so, IMO)...but once again, for appearance purposes, it was the "west" sticking their nose into Middle Eastern affairs.

Since then, we've deployed troops into Afghanistan and Iraq. Again, it doesn't matter if you view these as justifiable.

The perception is, we are interfering.

And if that wasn't enough, we continue to back Israel (which for the record, most of the time, I agree with). But again, it doesn't endear us too well with the rest of the Middle East.

We sell weapons to countries to help overthrow regimes (Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq) and because of this constant "mainstay" that has been our foreign policy over there, we are hated.

[AtlCB]

And they hate use because we stick our nose in their business, have used them to do our dirty work, try to dictate policy, nation build, help put dictators in power and so on.

As I said Iraq is just a SMALL part of it.

However I have heard time and time again that they just hate us for our freedom...which is silly.The group making these films are Palestinian. If you read the stuff at the bottom, you can clearly see that their anger is directed at Isreal and anyone supporting Isreal. The biggest problem they have with Isreal is that they are not Muslim.

[Vintage]

The group making these films are Palestinian. If you read the stuff at the bottom, you can clearly see that their anger is directed at Isreal and anyone supporting Isreal. The biggest problem they have with Isreal is that they are not Muslim.

They have problems with that Israel was simply "plopped" into their area, taking away land from them.

They have problems with territorial disputes over Gaza, Golan Heights, etc stemming from past wars.

They have problems with Israel not adhering to UN Resolutions (though admittedly, this is hilarious, since some in that region are ignoring them as well - see Hezbollah)

There are plenty of reasons (and yes, some are very unjustifiable) they hate Israel.

[burmafrd]

They are TAUGHT to hate us. By their media, government, school teachers, religious leaders, etc.

[BrAinPaiNt]

They are TAUGHT to hate us. By their media, government, school teachers, religious leaders, etc.

Are they taught to hate us for our freedoms?

[Vintage]

They are TAUGHT to hate us. By their media, government, school teachers, religious leaders, etc.

Yeah.

But "WHY" are they taught that.

You can't solve anything until you learn to understand the reasoning behind it.

[burmafrd]

Blaming it all on us is so easy for some of you. Its no one elses fault except ours. We have contributed to it- but we are far from the only reason and probably not even the main reason.

[Vintage]

Blaming it all on us is so easy for some of you. Its no one elses fault except ours. We have contributed to it- but we are far from the only reason and probably not even the main reason.

No one is blaming it all on us.

Would love to see you conjure up a quote where someone did, but as usual, when stuck, you go back to generalizing.

[BrAinPaiNt]

No one is blaming it all on us.

Would love to see you conjure up a quote where someone did, but as usual, when stuck, you go back to generalizing.

Yep...too bad people just don't get it.

[burmafrd]

Lest see: jterrel, Brain, Vintage. All of you seem to beleive its mostly our fault.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Lest see: jterrel, Brain, Vintage. All of you seem to beleive its mostly our fault.



You are like a broken record version of Hannity and Rudy.

You just don't get it.

Just because we give someone a reason to hate us, does not give them a legit excuse to attack us.

However if you want to break down why they hate us than yes we are partially responsible for them HATING us...not responsible for them ATTACKING us.

It really is not hard to figure out, although you try to make it. Actually not sure if you don't really get it or if you get it but don't want to admit so you use the old question their patriotism type of rhetoric. Which is what that boils down to even if you don't come out and say it.

There is a difference between WHY they hate us...and it being ok to attack us, which it is NOT ok to attack us.


Do you understand that?

Seriously do you understand WHY they hate us and why we are partially responsible for that hate?

VS

Them attacking us and we not being responsible for them attacking us?

[jterrell]

Lest see: jterrel, Brain, Vintage. All of you seem to beleive its mostly our fault.

did i miss where i even posted in this thread?

:confused:

[Vintage]

did i miss where i even posted in this thread?

:confused:


Don't let little things, like you know, facts, get in the way of burm's posts

:laugh2:

[BrAinPaiNt]

did i miss where i even posted in this thread?

:confused:

Well...you want to vote for Hillary.

That makes you a bad guy right off the bat.:D

I refuse to vote for Hillary and I am bad enough, but you...I tell you what you make the devil look like a saint.:laugh2:

[Crown Royal]

God I love threads where Burmafrd gets involved. It feels like the rest of us can unite in a common goal, which always makes me feel closer to you all.

[Vintage]

God I love threads where Burmafrd gets involved. It feels like the rest of us can unite in a common goal, which always makes me feel closer to you all.


:laugh2:

[peplaw06]

Are they taught to hate us for our freedoms?

I am hesitant to say anything that may be construed as support for burm, but here goes.

I think they hate us for a myriad of reasons. But I think one of them is our freedom. Not in a general sense, but I'm sure there are some freedoms we have that they hate. i.e. I know they hate that women in America are allowed to vote, wear whatever clothing they want and look men in the eyes.

But I agree that in a general sense, saying that they hate us for our freedom is silly.

[Crown Royal]

I am hesitant to say anything that may be construed as support for burm, but here goes.

I think they hate us for a myriad of reasons. But I think one of them is our freedom. Not in a general sense, but I'm sure there are some freedoms we have that they hate. i.e. I know they hate that women in America are allowed to vote, wear whatever clothing they want and look men in the eyes.

But I agree that in a general sense, saying that they hate us for our freedom is silly.

If I remember correctly, Iran doesn't have the same strict rules on women as some other places - in fact, women can hold political office.

And that is all a religious thing - it isn't a matter of freedoms per se, but a matter of infidels.

[windward]

I am hesitant to say anything that may be construed as support for burm, but here goes.

I think they hate us for a myriad of reasons. But I think one of them is our freedom. Not in a general sense, but I'm sure there are some freedoms we have that they hate. i.e. I know they hate that women in America are allowed to vote, wear whatever clothing they want and look men in the eyes.

But I agree that in a general sense, saying that they hate us for our freedom is silly.
I would add that in the Islamic world, particularly among conservative Islam, there is a general sentiment among Muslims that they often feel under siege by Western values. Values that are often inimical to their very own They see things differently than the way we do.

When we see a scantily clad woman, it is often seen as her "freedom", if you will, to dress in such a manner. An Islamist would not necessarily see this as freedom per se, but a byproduct of Western values that sullies the dignity of women. This is not a value they want within their society.

That's the difficulty in supporting Western-leaning moderates and governments. There's always going to be a hardcore following of people that subscribe to "Islamic values". In that light, it's not surprising to see the support in the Islamic community for groups like Hizbollah and Hamas

[peplaw06]

If I remember correctly, Iran doesn't have the same strict rules on women as some other places - in fact, women can hold political office.

And that is all a religious thing - it isn't a matter of freedoms per se, but a matter of infidels.I was meaning to talk about Islam in general, not specifically Iran. Sorry if that was confusing.

And in America, we consider it as "freedom" for women, etc. The right for them to vote, the freedom for them to look men in the eyes, the freedom to wear what they want.

It may be religious in the Islamic world, but I think it's a freedom thing in our society.

[windward]

On a parallel note there are depiciton in Israeli children's literature that presents Arabs in a less than savory light, depicting them as bloodthirsty savages easily manipulated by corrupt leaders. At best, a dumb brute.

[arglebargle]

I would add that in the Islamic world, particularly among conservative Islam, there is a general sentiment among Muslims that they often feel under siege by Western values. Values that are often inimical to their very own They see things differently than the way we do.

When we see a scantily clad woman, it is often seen as her "freedom", if you will, to dress in such a manner. An Islamist would not necessarily see this as freedom per se, but a byproduct of Western values that sullies the dignity of women. This is not a value they want within their society.

That's the difficulty in supporting Western-leaning moderates and governments. There's always going to be a hardcore following of people that subscribe to "Islamic values". In that light, it's not surprising to see the support in the Islamic community for groups like Hizbollah and Hamas

Religious zealots of all stripes seem to echo these fears. It is not just Islam (though I think you are accurate in your description).

[windward]

Religious zealots of all stripes seem to echo these fears. It is not just Islam (though I think you are accurate in your description).
You're right. Ultra-Conservative Christianity, Judaism, et al share these characteristics.

[Eric_Boyer]

I wish people would see the bigoty and racism in their views more often.

'They hate us for"....

This is pure collectivism. They aren't the borg. They hate for different reasons.

Some of them (the extreme minority we hope) support a caliphate and will hate anyone that stands in their way of global domination.

Most of them hate the conditions they find themselves in. And like many individuals, are looking outword to find blame for those conditions. Nationalism is a strong factor in this. It's easier to hate outsiders - and we are outsiders.

Others have experienced first hand the negative side of our intervention - and hate is for it. They have suffered great losses and this specifically has produced the feelings of hate.

[Vintage]

I wish people would see the bigoty and racism in their views more often.

'They hate us for"....

This is pure collectivism. They aren't the borg. They hate for different reasons.

Some of them (the extreme minority we hope) support a caliphate and will hate anyone that stands in their way of global domination.

Most of them hate the conditions they find themselves in. And like many individuals, are looking outword to find blame for those conditions. Nationalism is a strong factor in this. It's easier to hate outsiders - and we are outsiders.

Others have experienced first hand the negative side of our intervention - and hate is for it. They have suffered great losses and this specifically has produced the feelings of hate.

Not everyone was using "they" in the communal sense of the entire Middle East, or a particular religion, or a particular country.

They were using "they" to talk about those who do hate us. And using that group. And listing several different reasons as to why "they" hate us. I wasn't going to break down every group like Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, Hamas, etc. Waste of time. So I just listed different reasons "they" hate us. It wasn't directed at a particular group, nationality, or religion. It was merely the pronoun I used for those who do fit the "hate" model.

I thought it was obvious.

Guess not.

[CowboyJeff]

And these are the people you claim hate us because of Iraq, brain?

They don't hate us at all. The Qur'an tells them what to do with us.

[BrAinPaiNt]

They don't hate us at all. The Qur'an tells them what to do with us.

The Qur'an could tell them to buy us ice cream cones and wash our feet in a sign of humility and humbleness....it still does not change the idea that they still hate us.

But that is just the opinion of one sexy man.

[CowboyJeff]

The Qur'an could tell them to buy us ice cream cones and wash our feet in a sign of humility and humbleness....it still does not change the idea that they still hate us.

But that is just the opinion of one sexy man.

Brain's too sexy for the Qur'an.....too sexy for the Qur'an.....:lmao:

[BrAinPaiNt]

Brain's too sexy for the Qur'an.....too sexy for the Qur'an.....:lmao:

Keep it up and I will make you my snuggle bunny.:p:

Now that is terrorism.

[CowboyJeff]

Keep it up and I will make you my snuggle bunny.:p:

Now that is terrorism.

Gonna call Mr. Tancredo on you :D

[BrAinPaiNt]

Gonna call Mr. Tancredo on you :D

Bring him on.

I will show him some West Virginia Jihad.

He will leave here with coal dust on him, walking bow legged and with a cowbell around his neck.

WE NEED MORE COWBELL!

[Eric_Boyer]

They don't hate us at all. The Qur'an tells them what to do with us.


The Qur'an, like all ancient religious text, can be interpretted in widly different directions.

[CowboyJeff]

The Qur'an, like all ancient religious text, can be interpretted in widly different directions.

:rolleyes: I love it when people comment on things they've never read or seen.

[CowboyJeff]

Bring him on.

I will show him some West Virginia Jihad.

He will leave here with coal dust on him, walking bow legged and with a cowbell around his neck.

WE NEED MORE COWBELL!

Ladies and Gentleman......Lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllet's get readyyyyyyyy to rumbleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

In the red corner: Hailing from a mosque near you.....Farfurrrrrrrrrrr The Body Snatcherrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

In the blue corner: Fighting in the black leather pants. Hailing from West Virginia. "The Undertakerrrrrrr" BraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaainPaintttttttttttttttttt.

referee Mills Lane: "Let's get it on!!!"

[Eric_Boyer]

:rolleyes: I love it when people comment on things they've never read or seen.

Can you elaborate for me? Perhaps in arabic? :banghead:

[Crown Royal]

Can you elaborate for me? Perhaps in arabic? :banghead:

Jeff considers himself the expert on all things Muslim because he says he's read the Qur'an.

/elaboration.

[CowboyJeff]

Can you elaborate for me? Perhaps in arabic? :banghead:

:rolleyes: Just pick up a copy of the Qur'an and read it. Better yet....how about I intentionally not watch the first Cowboys preseason game, but still comment on it like I have any clue what I'm taking about.

[CowboyJeff]

Jeff considers himself the expert on all things Muslim because he says he's read the Qur'an.

/elaboration.

:lmao: :laugh2:
Not an expert at all. But don’t you consider yourself more knowledgeable about the Cowboys than those who don’t even watch football?

[Crown Royal]

:lmao: :laugh2:
Not an expert at all. But don’t you consider yourself more knowledgeable about the Cowboys than those who don’t even watch football?

I'm just giving you a hard time, considering the subject that you both were discussing.

[CowboyJeff]

I'm just giving you a hard time, considering the subject that you both were discussing.

right back atcha. :) I'm just trying to put things in a football perspective. I'm "lucky" in the respect that I have a few friends that live near me who are "hypocrites" from Iran, India, Pakistan, and the West Bank who've been telling me what's been going on for years now. They are the face that Islam should be. I dont think anyone would have a problem with their secular view of Islam. It kind of suppliments everything I've read or learned and puts it into a real perspective from those who've lived it.

[Eric_Boyer]

:lmao: :laugh2:
Not an expert at all. But don’t you consider yourself more knowledgeable about the Cowboys than those who don’t even watch football?

That depends. Did I actually watch a football game or am I simply watching someones reenactment of that game? Am I aware that I'm not supposed to watch the game from beginning to end as some experts claim?

And why is it that 3 people - all claiming to be experts in football - watched the exact same game and argue about who the winner was? They argue so violently that they declare the other side to be evil and doesn't know what he is even talking about. Both self-professed experts with wildly different ideas about what they think.

[Dallas]

right back atcha. :) I'm just trying to put things in a football perspective. I'm "lucky" in the respect that I have a few friends that live near me who are "hypocrites" from Iran, India, Pakistan, and the West Bank who've been telling me what's been going on for years now. They are the face that Islam should be. I dont think anyone would have a problem with their secular view of Islam. It kind of suppliments everything I've read or learned and puts it into a real perspective from those who've lived it.

Until you find out they are a sleeping terror cell that are called up to blow up the local Quickiemart.

ICEE's everywhere.

TV2Reporter: CowboyJeff, did you have any idea your close personal friends were extremist followers?

CowboyJeff: They were some of my best friends........I never knew.

CowboyJeff: MoonPie?

TV2Reporter: Why thank you.


mmmhmmmm

[CowboyJeff]

Until you find out they are a sleeping terror cell that are called up to blow up the local Quickiemart.

ICEE's everywhere.

TV2Reporter: CowboyJeff, did you have any idea your close personal friends were extremist followers?

CowboyJeff: They were some of my best friends........I never knew.

CowboyJeff: MoonPie?

TV2Reporter: Why thank you.


mmmhmmmm

:lmao: :lmao2: :laugh2: You might not be that far off.

[CowboyJeff]

That depends. Did I actually watch a football game or am I simply watching someones reenactment of that game? Am I aware that I'm not supposed to watch the game from beginning to end as some experts claim?

And why is it that 3 people - all claiming to be experts in football - watched the exact same game and argue about who the winner was? They argue so violently that they declare the other side to be evil and doesn't know what he is even talking about. Both self-professed experts with wildly different ideas about what they think.

not the best example. I would give you this example:

3 people exist. Persons 1 & 2 watched the game in it's extirety. Person 3 didnt watch it at all. Of the 2 who watched the game, Person 1 strongly disagrees with aspects of the game and chooses to ignore them (bad calls, defensive TDs, whatever). Person 2 immerses himself in every aspect of the game and says to Person 1: "I must kill you now because your view of the game is heresy." Person 2 then kills Person 1 or Person 1 flees to another country in secrecy. Person 2 then says to Person 3, "Watch the game and agree with me, or I kill you too." In the end, nobody will ever win an argument with Person 2, because Person 2 is right no matter what anyone else thinks or says. He is a true believer in everything he saw on the field during the game.

[TheKey]

And they hate use because we stick our nose in their business, have used them to do our dirty work, try to dictate policy, nation build, help put dictators in power and so on.

As I said Iraq is just a SMALL part of it.

However I have heard time and time again that they just hate us for our freedom...which is silly.

Brainpaint, you are off base here. ATLCB hit the nail on the head, they hate us because we are not Muslim. They say when they convert people to Islam its called "reverts" because we are all born muslim, but we are the heathens that didnt embrace it. They say that they will not stop to the whole world is Muslim and that includes America. Eurpoe is already pretty close. 30% of Frances population under 18 is muslim. They hate the Jews, we support the Jews. A friend of your enemey is your enemey. If we were not in Iraq, they would hate us no more, no less than they do right now. Also, if you think they don't hate our freedoms, youre crazy. They despise the fact that your wife can be the head of a large company, or even president. They hate that she can walk down the street, in front of you, uncovered. They are proactive about it, they want to change it by force. They hate Americans, Westeners, and everything we stand for.

[Jarv]

Are they taught to hate us for our freedoms?

One of our freedoms is the right to choose our own religion, if any at all.

Our freedoms to not follow their guidelines of that religion. The fact that Christians and Jews (Women also, by the way) can be part of our government because of our freedoms.

Like you said, there are many reasons they hate us, to say its got nothing to do with our freedoms is as ignorant as saying it has everything to do with our freedoms.

[BrAinPaiNt]

One of our freedoms is the right to choose our own religion, if any at all.

Our freedoms to not follow their guidelines of that religion. The fact that Christians and Jews (Women also, by the way) can be part of our government because of our freedoms.

Like you said, there are many reasons they hate us, to say its got nothing to do with our freedoms is as ignorant as saying it has everything to do with our freedoms.

You keep up the logic and I will replace your Harley avatar with a schwinn or huffy picture. ;) :p:

[CowboyJeff]

Brainpaint, you are off base here. ATLCB hit the nail on the head, they hate us because we are not Muslim. They say when they convert people to Islam its called "reverts" because we are all born muslim, but we are the heathens that didnt embrace it. They say that they will not stop to the whole world is Muslim and that includes America. Eurpoe is already pretty close. 30% of Frances population under 18 is muslim. They hate the Jews, we support the Jews. A friend of your enemey is your enemey. If we were not in Iraq, they would hate us no more, no less than they do right now. Also, if you think they don't hate our freedoms, youre crazy. They despise the fact that your wife can be the head of a large company, or even president. They hate that she can walk down the street, in front of you, uncovered. They are proactive about it, they want to change it by force. They hate Americans, Westeners, and everything we stand for.

Key, you pretty much hit it dead-on. Except I think their "hatred" of Jews versus Christians is a little overstated. They will kill any non-Muslim who refuses to convert if given the chance. They dont discriminate in that way. The fact that Israel exists means we hear more anti-Jewish Islamic rhetoric, but if you do some research you'll see the Islamic populations throughout the world are slaughtering Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists in far greater numbers than Jews.

[Eric_Boyer]

One of our freedoms is the right to choose our own religion, if any at all.

Our freedoms to not follow their guidelines of that religion. The fact that Christians and Jews (Women also, by the way) can be part of our government because of our freedoms.

Like you said, there are many reasons they hate us, to say its got nothing to do with our freedoms is as ignorant as saying it has everything to do with our freedoms.

Terrorism experts have agreed our western values are something they hate. They have also suggested that hatred for our values isn't what is motivating these people to sacrifice their own lives.

[CowboyJeff]

One of our freedoms is the right to choose our own religion, if any at all.

Our freedoms to not follow their guidelines of that religion. The fact that Christians and Jews (Women also, by the way) can be part of our government because of our freedoms.

Like you said, there are many reasons they hate us, to say its got nothing to do with our freedoms is as ignorant as saying it has everything to do with our freedoms.

Our freedoms are a symptom of our refusal to be true-believing Muslims. Once you become a true-believing Muslim, you dont have any freedom of thought outside the Qur'an. Our freedoms are different from freedoms in Australia, Mexico, Europe, Japan, etc. The only commonality is that all these countries are not Islamic Republics.

[notherbob]

The fact that our freedoms and human rights exist is a symptom of not being Islamic. If the USA were Islamic, there would be no freedoms or human rights; They are unIslamic.

Islamic extremeists are that way because they have been trained and conditioned to be that way their entire lives and they are a product of their circumstances and their teachings, like brainwashed POWs. In fact, from my perspective, Islamic cultures are like vast open prison camps.

Because war begets war and that just entrenches positions, if there is ever going to be any peace, if that is the desired end, the moderates of both sides must corral and dis-empower the extremists; it cannot be imposed by outsiders, only their own kind can influence them or take control or change their objectives. Change in Islamic countries must come from within and that is where diplomatic efforts need to be made.

The Islamic middle classes must find a way to appeal to the masses and change their values; perhaps consumerism might be the instrument of social change. Consumerism attacks the most vulnerable of human weaknesses, one that internally overrides all others, selfish personal interest.

If we can infect them with modern TV and the internet, sooner or later they will succumb to the lure. Information and viewpoints will come to them that they have never been exposed to before and it will change them.

It has infected everyplace else in the world, maybe it will conquer the Islamic world next but from within, of course.

It's either that or we continue to let the military-indsutrial complexes of all the countries run the world for their own profit, as usual.

Steps down from soapbox and says "It's just my opinion and it's always subject to change, make of it what you will."

[CowboyJeff]

The fact that our freedoms and human rights exist is a symptom of not being Islamic. If the USA were Islamic, there would be no freedoms or human rights; They are unIslamic.

Islamic extremeists are that way because they have been trained and conditioned to be that way their entire lives and they are a product of their circumstances and their teachings, like brainwashed POWs. In fact, from my perspective, Islamic cultures are like vast open prison camps.

Because war begets war and that just entrenches positions, if there is ever going to be any peace, if that is the desired end, the moderates of both sides must corral and dis-empower the extremists; it cannot be imposed by outsiders, only their own kind can influence them or take control or change their objectives. Change in Islamic countries must come from within and that is where diplomatic efforts need to be made.

The Islamic middle classes must find a way to appeal to the masses and change their values; perhaps consumerism might be the instrument of social change. Consumerism attacks the most vulnerable of human weaknesses, one that internally overrides all others, selfish personal interest.

If we can infect them with modern TV and the internet, sooner or later they will succumb to the lure. Information and viewpoints will come to them that they have never been exposed to before and it will change them.

It has infected everyplace else in the world, maybe it will conquer the Islamic world next but from within, of course.

It's either that or we continue to let the military-indsutrial complexes of all the countries run the world for their own profit, as usual.

Steps down from soapbox and says "It's just my opinion and it's always subject to change, make of it what you will."

that's a very non-Islamic way of looking at the situation :D

[Jarv]

You keep up the logic and I will replace your Harley avatar with a schwinn or huffy picture. ;) :p:

I like this Huffy...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/jarvman/delia_big.jpg

[notherbob]

I like this Huffy...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/jarvman/delia_big.jpg

Neat looking machine. Do you have to have a pilot's license to operate it? What's its ceiling altitude? :rolleyes: Are the parachutes extra?

[Jarv]

Neat looking machine. Do you have to have a pilot's license to operate it? What's its ceiling altitude? :rolleyes: Are the parachutes extra?

Lol..

Its a Boss Hoss V-8 (350) powered bike.