Even 'Skins are hopeful in pre-season...

[vicjagger]

Preseason: Game #2
Steelers 12
Redskins 10

Don't look now, but the swagger may be back.

You remember the swagger. It's what defined the Washington Redskins, through an elite, attacking defense, in the "Hi, my name is--" year of 2004 and the "Did they really just come within a couple plays of the NFC title game?" year of 2005. And which went AWOL in the "What the [heck] happened?" year of 2006.

Well, it's early, but for those watching carefully, it's hard not to look at what the defense has done in 2007 and be, at the very least, intrigued.
I'm not a numbers guy generally (particularly in preseason), but I thought I'd take a quick look to see if anything jumped out. It did. Enough so that I then took a look back at the 2006 preseason, to try to put this year's early returns in context with a little comparison shopping:

1) In going 0-4 in the 2006 preseason, the Redskins scored a grand total of 27 points (6.75 avg.) and allowed 104 (26 avg.). The minus-77 differential was by far the worst in the NFL (N.O. Saints, -34). The Redskins weren't just losing, they were getting manhandled. Through the first two weeks of the 2007 preseason, Washington's point differential is +6; scoring 12 per game and allowing nine.

2) Visions of opposing running backs romping through the Redskin secondary last year still haunt you? Turns out the 2006 preseason offered an indication of what was to come. Washington finished 30th against the run, allowing 149 ypg. (4.3 avg.). Halfway through the 2007 preseason, they rank 9th, allowing 92.5 ypg. (2.8 avg.)

3) When the dust finally cleared at the end of the 2006 preseason, Washington ranked 31st in the league in the only defensive statistical category that matters at the end of the day--scoring. Halfway through the 2007 preseason, they stand 2nd. The 18 they've allowed are second only to the 16 conceded by this week's opponent, the Baltimore Ravens (http://www.redskins.com/gameday/default.jsp?gameId=73).

4) In the opening halves of the first two games this year, with primarily first-teamers playing, the 2007 Redskins have allowed 6 points (two field goals) through two games. Last year at this time, the first unit had surrendered 29.
Not into stats? Don't blame you--as noted, I'm generally not either. But I am into keeping old game tapes around, even some from preseason (a quality my wife finds particularly endearing).

Seeking out further confirmation of what I thought I was seeing in 2007, I dug out a tape of last year's 41-0 obliteration (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/boxscore?game_id=29161&displayPage=tab_box_score&season=2006&week=PRE3) at the hands of the Patriots in Week 3, the "dress rehearsal" week of preseason, where starters tend to play the longest and teams supposedly take opponent-based preparation the most seriously.

I wanted to see if the dramatic shift in the "feel" I think I'm seeing in this defense was real or wishful thinking.

It's real.

The stats were bad enough that day. 464 yards allowed (294 passing, 170 rushing). In the first half alone, the starters were rolled for 228, giving up drives of 11 plays for 42 yards and a field goal, 4 plays for 80 yards and a touchdown, 9 plays for 67 yards and a touchdown, 8 plays for 24 yards and another field goal.

Worse was how they gave them up. They looked slow. They looked disorganized. They blew assignments, missed tackles and committed penalties that extended drives. Most damning, at times they just looked plain disinterested. Remember?

Contrast that with what we have seen this year. If last year's enduring preseason mental image is of Tom Brady scanning the defense, making adjustments and repeatedly burning a slow-reacting, arm-tackling, often bewildered-looking collection of guys, this year it's of the swarming, gang-tackling, fist-pumping unit that turned Pittsburgh away in the red zone Saturday night, time and time again, once again dictating play instead of reacting to it.

This group looks like they're having fun again. Like they know where they're supposed to be and will bust a gut getting there. Like they've bought into the coach, the system and one another. And they're playing with an edge.

A swagger, if you will.

Does any of this guarantee the 2007 defense will return to its 2004-05 form? Unfortunately, no--the real world doesn't work that way. It does, however, strongly suggest that somebody, somewhere, flipped the proverbial light-
switch back on.

If this continues a couple more weeks, and the defense faces off against the Miami Dolphins (http://www.miamidolphins.com/newsite/flash_content.asp) at FedExField on September 9 playing with the kind of hunger they've exhibited so far, things are going to get interesting around here in a hurry.

Quickies:
Speaking of swagger, how about the special teams? Punter Derrick Frost (http://www.redskins.com/team/profile.jsp?id=3597), in addition to blowing up the occasional return man with the nerve to break through the first wave, leads the league in pinning opponents inside their 20 yard line (7), while still managing to average 46.9 yards per kick, good for 11th in the league.


Kicker Shaun Suisham (http://www.redskins.com/team/profile.jsp?id=245) has only had two field goal attempts; a 47-yarder high off upright (he may have thought he was taping an NFL.fantasy.com commercial) and a 48-yarder that was straight and true. Not much of a statistical a sample to go on there, but the man is clearly making good contact. It also hasn't escaped notice that his kickoffs are getting the kind of depth that the Redskins haven't enjoyed in seemingly a decade.
And then there's the coverage units, which with few exceptions have not only been sound but often ferocious, making the kind of 100-mph, kamikaze tackles that bring bench and fans alike to their feet and can set the tone for an entire game.
Been a while since we've seen that around here. I've not forgotten the long years of holding my breath every time the Skins kicked off. Feels good to fill my lungs again.

It's not all puppies and strawberry milk, of course.
The resurgent defense hasn't totally eased concerns over last year's lack of a pass rush, for instance. Gregg Williams' full blitz-happy system won't make its first real appearance until the regular season. Meanwhile, he seems content to pick a few spots a game to let his hair down a bit (often rather telegraphed in my humble opinion), but for the most going with the down linemen with little help and little in the way of stunting.
Not saying I disagree with the Plan, but it would go a long way toward easing the concerns of the greater peanut gallery should a large person or two in the right colors land on a quarterback a couple times before then. At present, the Redskins stand alone in the NFL as the only team to have registered just one sack through two games. Good thing the D has been just short of dominant anyway, or people might fret.


Offensively, the running game has yet to make an appearance. Though arguably operating with one hand tied behind its back (missing key personnel, content to plow repeatedly between the tackles in the face of stacked fronts), this key facet of the Redskins offensive attack has looked anemic at best.2.4 yards-per-carry won't scare anyone but the Redskins and their fans. Want to see something interesting, though? Check out the 10 statistically worst rushing teams in the NFL through week two of the 2007 preseason:


NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&statisticCategory=RUSHING&conference=ALL&role=TM) 23. New Orleans Saints - 83.7 ypg.
24. Detroit Lions - 80
24. New England Patriots - 80
24. St. Louis Rams - 80
27. Cincinnati Bengals - 79.5
28. Kansas City Chiefs - 75.5
29. Chicago Bears - 62.5
30. Indianapolis Colts - 62
31. Washington Redskins - 60
32. Philadelphia Eagles - 45 Make of it what you will.


To these eyes, Todd Collins (http://www.redskins.com/team/profile.jsp?id=3344) has clearly surpassed Mark Brunell as the best option for No. 2 quarterback. Back in 2005, it was abundantly clear in preseason that then-No. 2 Brunell had outplayed then-No. 1 Patrick Ramsey (http://www.nfl.com/players/patrickramsey/profile?id=RAM596976). So much so that when Gibbs made the now-famous (or infamous depending on ones' view) decision to make the switch when Ramsey was knocked woozy early in the season opener, it came as no surprise.


The parallel this year is compelling. Unless Gibbs sees something in practice that looks far different from what we see on the field, in game situations Collins would appear to have more than made a case for No. 2.
Both men have played with backups, against backups, so they've come by these numbers on a pretty level playing field:
Collins
15 for 18 (.833), 130 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT. Passer rating: 115.3
Brunell
9 for 21 (.428), 102 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT. Passer rating: 38.2
Now we have to take into account that Collins has the advantage of running plays by Al Saunders, a coach he has played for the last seven years. Certainly that plays into Collins's success in Saunders' offense.
But I don't believe Collins has the downfield arm to sustain success over more than a few weeks. Given time to prepare, defenses would crowd the line, limiting the run and taking away underneath passing options, forcing him to go downfield. We've seen that movie before.
On the other hand, Collins has mastered the underneath game, and given time, has shown he can be effective in the intermediate game. Moreover, he has shown the ability to consistently manage the offense in a way Brunell has rarely been unable to do. If things continue to unfold as they have been, it is hard to envision Collins not getting the nod as Campbell's backup or, should Jason not be ready to play, as starter against Miami on opening weekend. If results on the field count, the decision appears an easy one.


Finally--and I say this quietly since you never know when Fate might be listening--could Jason Campbell's avoiding what appeared to be a season-ending knee injury, with all that would have meant to this team and its fans, mean that the gridiron gods have finally tired of toying with the Washington Redskins? Could it be, at long last, that we have served our time? I know we owed them for the three Super Bowls and all, it's why I've not complained as long and loud as some. But man--with apologies to Cardinals, Lions and Cubs fans, sixteen years has been a long penance.

Here's hoping. (NOT)

[BrAinPaiNt]

I know that it is only preseason. I have only seen a little of the last game.

But from what I seen that defense has improved a great deal. I don't know if it will be as good as the one that got them into the playoffs, but it was a far cry from last years defense.

So who knows. Kind of hard to be pretty much dead last like last year.:D

[zrinkill]

but the swagger may be back.

The last time the Skins had swagger was 1991

[TunaFan33]

As much as it pains me to type this-I'm happy for Suisham-the younger players here were playing very tense b/c of Parcells' style(he couldn't even make a 30 yarder if it meant to save his life).

All in all-regardless of what team he is with, I'm happy to see SS utilizing his talents well.

[Yakuza Rich]

It's kind of funny that this is a spin job and the writer is contradicting himself. He goes on about how last year's preseason defense was so bad and that was an indicator towards what would happen in the 2006 regular season. But when he shows that the offense is sputtering in preseason, it's because they are "operating with one hand behind its back."

I like the research and work that went into it, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If your defensive play in preseason is indicative of things to come, then by that logic so should the play on offense. And that doesn't even get into the plethora of teams that have done just as well in preseason on defense and better on offense, including Dallas.




YAKUZA

[TunaFan33]

It's kind of funny that this is a spin job and the writer is contradicting himself. He goes on about how last year's preseason defense was so bad and that was an indicator towards what would happen in the 2006 regular season. But when he shows that the offense is sputtering in preseason, it's because they are "operating with one hand behind its back."

I like the research and work that went into it, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If your defensive play in preseason is indicative of things to come, then by that logic so should the play on offense. And that doesn't even get into the plethora of teams that have done just as well in preseason on defense and better on offense, including Dallas.




YAKUZA

If anything-do NOT underestimate a Joe Gibbs team when they are on their last lifeline.

Frankly-I take preseason with a grain of salt.(Sure, we've looked GREAT, but didn't we look GREAT in JJ's first 1-15 season?)

[Bull Frog]

If anything-do NOT underestimate a Joe Gibbs team when they are on their last lifeline.

What does that mean?

[Chocolate Lab]

Don't look now, but the swagger may be back.
:lmao:

[DCBoysfan]

I have seen them play and there Defense is improved from last year, but that Offense...Oh that Offense has problems..and that was before Campbell got hurt.

[chicago JK]

Sure they could be a playoff team. Their defense has been more active in this preseason then they were last offseason but time will tell if they are really back to that attacking defense. I also think JC has looked good (only saw the game agaisnt Pitt). He will surely have growing pains but it appears he has a solid mental makeup and he definately has the physical size and athletic skills to succeed. Obviously we will need to see if he has the "it factor" and time will tell with that.

I do think it is foolish to write off the skins...or any NFC East team. I think depth is still a major weakness for them. Outside of CB and RB, I don't see much depth. Although Skins fans told us last year that they were very deep at CB last year too. I guess that is why they play the games.

[Bob Sacamano]

:lmao:
lol, what is Reskin swagger?

[ThreeSportStar80]

I believe the Redskins will be a tough opponent for anyone this year... I believe Campbell will play well and that defense despite not having a stellar front four will be much improved.

[DallasEast]

lol, what is Reskin swagger?It's when a Redskin has been out drinking alot and they start bumping into walls and falling down! It's too funny! They couldn't walk a straight line if they wanted...

Waitasec. You said 'swagger'. I thought you said 'stagger'. My bad. :o:

[silverbear]

I know that it is only preseason. I have only seen a little of the last game.

But from what I seen that defense has improved a great deal.

Then again, they haven't really been tested yet... they played the Titans without Vince Young, they played a Steelers team that is breaking in a whole new system and making a move toward a more passing-oriented offense...

I see some areas of improvement, notably in the linebacker play, but their defensive line play is still substandard, and I'm not really sold on their secondary at this point... they've given up 389 yards passing in the first two games, and like I said, that was without facing Vince Young for the Titans... the Titans and Steelers starters moved the ball rather effectively through the air against the Skins...

On the plus side, they are clearly faster on defense, and they have done a fine job of stuffing the run thus far in preseason...

Now, about that offense... they've got problems there, and it starts up front...

[The30YardSlant]

It would be very difficult for the Skins to be worse on defense than they were last year... :laugh2:

[Maxmadden]

This article is based on a 2 preseason game sample?

I guess he had to get it in while he still can.

[theebs]

I know that it is only preseason. I have only seen a little of the last game.

But from what I seen that defense has improved a great deal. I don't know if it will be as good as the one that got them into the playoffs, but it was a far cry from last years defense.

So who knows. Kind of hard to be pretty much dead last like last year.:D


They will be very much improved. They have the look of an upper level defense. They are going to be a tough physical team each week.

They have a very favorable schedule that should get them off to a fast start.

In the first 6 weeks They have miami, detroit, green bay, Arizona. Three of those are at home. They play at gb and at philly in the first 6 weeks, they have 4 home games in that time period, miami, detroit, arizona and the giants.

Anyone going to take miami, detroit or arizona at washington? Me either.

THey will be confident and off to a good start. I would imagine by the time we play them they will have 5 wins or more.

Washingtons only concern is their poor special teams, kicker and punter are average and campbells accuracy on short and medium routes. He can throw the long ball very well.

[dcboy]

The skins do have some talent, but they really need to stay healthy. I think they had some of the same problems that we did last year on defense, with getting too conservative. Last season alot of the fans complained about the read and react cover two. They need Williams to get creative with blitzes because of the lack of front four talent. It does look like they are back to attacking. If so, I would expect for them to be a solid defense. I don't know about the offense. They have good talent, but don't seem together yet. They aren't a bad team if they can stay healthy.

[sacase]

Their Defense looked improved, but honestly Fletcher looked like a man among boys out there. McIntosh has been playing better than I expected, but I am curious to see what happens when teams start game planning and isolating these players.

Campbell to me looks like a bus driver. He has a good arm, but it looks like he is very slow on his progressions. I remember Joey T talking about how he was going through his reads, but on the replay he never looked away from the reciver he threw the ball to, so he is still locking onto recievers. The WR's outside of Moss are just bad. Moss, I would say is above average. ARE is ok. Loyd? HAHA. Cooley is good but I don't know if they are going to get him the ball like they should. The line is abysmal which in turn makes the RB's look bad, but I do like Betts. I felt they should have traded Portis for some draft picks. While Betts is not as good as Portis, Portis would get you some depth they desperatly need. Betts have proven that he can carry the load all season. Washington better stick to 3 and 5 step drops if they hope to have any chance of winning games on the offensive sidde of the ball. The more 3 step drops the better.

[Bob Sacamano]

Redskin swagger (present version)

we are the Redsucks

we suck so much

every good play, we grab each other by the butt

don't let go until he grabs my sac

oh, we're so gay, we're Redskin...hags

yeah

[VACowboy]

The Washington defense looked awfully tough against Pitt. They were really, really quick to the ball and it wouldn't surprise me if they turned out to be a top-five unit. I think they may be most vulnerable to big, mauling offensive lines and teams that run right at them. If we're judging from preseason, I'd say depth will be an even bigger issue than most people think, because the way it looks, those defensive players are going to be on the field a lot.

[Idgit]

...Anyone going to take miami, detroit or arizona at washington? Me either.

THey will be confident and off to a good start. I would imagine by the time we play them they will have 5 wins or more.

Washingtons only concern is their poor special teams, kicker and punter are average and campbells accuracy on short and medium routes. He can throw the long ball very well.

I'm not so sure they're better than Detroit or AZ, even at home this year. They have major concerns on offense, including QB accuracy, WR, OG and OL depth. Their defense has looked good in preseason. That and a ham sandwich will get you a ham sandwich; they don't have any pass rush to speak of and are still fiddling with their linebacker rotation. I have a world of respect for Joe Gibbs generally, but I do think their offensive coaching staff is a liability these days. If it weren't for the Giants, they'd be a lock for the cellar in the NFCE before the games even start.

[skinsfunguy]

Then again, they haven't really been tested yet... they played the Titans without Vince Young, they played a Steelers team that is breaking in a whole new system and making a move toward a more passing-oriented offense...

I see some areas of improvement, notably in the linebacker play, but their defensive line play is still substandard, and I'm not really sold on their secondary at this point... they've given up 389 yards passing in the first two games, and like I said, that was without facing Vince Young for the Titans... the Titans and Steelers starters moved the ball rather effectively through the air against the Skins...

On the plus side, they are clearly faster on defense, and they have done a fine job of stuffing the run thus far in preseason...

Now, about that offense... they've got problems there, and it starts up front...

While our offense has looked a little shaky this preseason, especially in regards to the running game, it should be of note that our left side of the offensive line has been completely different then what it will be once the season starts. We are using an undrafted rookie at LT and are in the process of trying to find Dockerys replacement. I believe once Samuels comes back we will see a MUCH improved offensive line.

[skinsfunguy]

I'm not so sure they're better than Detroit or AZ, even at home this year. They have major concerns on offense, including QB accuracy, WR, OG and OL depth. Their defense has looked good in preseason. That and a ham sandwich will get you a ham sandwich; they don't have any pass rush to speak of and are still fiddling with their linebacker rotation. I have a world of respect for Joe Gibbs generally, but I do think their offensive coaching staff is a liability these days. If it weren't for the Giants, they'd be a lock for the cellar in the NFCE before the games even start.

Actually our linebackers have looked great this preseason. London Fletcher has been everywhere and 2nd year WLB Rocky McIntosh has probably been our MVP on defense thus far.

[Bob Sacamano]

The Washington defense looked awfully tough against Pitt. They were really, really quick to the ball and it wouldn't surprise me if they turned out to be a top-five unit. I think they may be most vulnerable to big, mauling offensive lines and teams that run right at them. If we're judging from preseason, I'd say depth will be an even bigger issue than most people think, because the way it looks, those defensive players are going to be on the field a lot.

I think the skins will be tough against the run, they usually are, but I can see them being susceptible through the air, at least against the good aerial attacks

[skinsfunguy]

They will be very much improved. They have the look of an upper level defense. They are going to be a tough physical team each week.

They have a very favorable schedule that should get them off to a fast start.

In the first 6 weeks They have miami, detroit, green bay, Arizona. Three of those are at home. They play at gb and at philly in the first 6 weeks, they have 4 home games in that time period, miami, detroit, arizona and the giants.

Anyone going to take miami, detroit or arizona at washington? Me either.

THey will be confident and off to a good start. I would imagine by the time we play them they will have 5 wins or more.

Washingtons only concern is their poor special teams, kicker and punter are average and campbells accuracy on short and medium routes. He can throw the long ball very well.

I know you guys don't think much of Suisham, but he was MONEY for us last year. It is to be determined if that was a mirage or not.

As far as our Punter Frost goes, he has been lights out this preseason. I believe he leads the league in pinning opponents inside the twenty and is around 8th or so in net punting average.

[theebs]

I know you guys don't think much of Suisham, but he was MONEY for us last year. It is to be determined if that was a mirage or not.

As far as our Punter Frost goes, he has been lights out this preseason. I believe he leads the league in pinning opponents inside the twenty and is around 8th or so in net punting average.


so your saying your special teams are not average and are not a question mark?

Come on man, I know you cant be that much of a homer. With your style of play special teams are going to be very important.

Frost has done a good job this preseason but him and suisham would be replaced with better options if they could be. Maybe the team likes frost more than I am thinking.

[Idgit]

Actually our linebackers have looked great this preseason. London Fletcher has been everywhere and 2nd year WLB Rocky McIntosh has probably been our MVP on defense thus far.

Yah, I'm not really questioning the ability of your starters. M. Washington's got a dislocated elbow, though, right? And I know you've been shuffling your backups with the Godfrey signing.

It's not that I couldn't see Washington fielding a good team. I just think it looks pretty unlikely this year.

[skinsfunguy]

so your saying your special teams are not average and are not a question mark?

Come on man, I know you cant be that much of a homer. With your style of play special teams are going to be very important.

Frost has done a good job this preseason but him and suisham would be replaced with better options if they could be. Maybe the team likes frost more than I am thinking.

I am actually FAR from a homer. Ask BigDFan5:)

I am not saying they are not a question mark. HOWEVER I would not do ANYTHING to change them at this point. So far for us Suisham has been awesome. I don't see the point of going the usual Redskin route and signing some big name kicker. I feel as though we should see if Suisham is for real or not. Kickers bounce around the league alot before they find a home and become comfortable, it would be awful if we let another David Akers go.

As for Frost, I like him ALOT. I really think he is the real deal. He is a young punter that was inconsistent the last two years but did show signs of brilliance. This preseason he has been nothing short of spectacular. Also, I like that hes not afraid to run downfield and jack someone up:)

[Billy Bullocks]

I know that it is only preseason. I have only seen a little of the last game.

But from what I seen that defense has improved a great deal. I don't know if it will be as good as the one that got them into the playoffs, but it was a far cry from last years defense.

So who knows. Kind of hard to be pretty much dead last like last year.:D


Yeah I agree. They were getting pressure on Rothlisberger. The team was swarming to the ball. They looked alot better than last year.

[tunahelper]

Skins defense will be back as long as the CB's are healthy?

They do not have the DL to create pressure without blitzing.

[skinsfunguy]

Yah, I'm not really questioning the ability of your starters. M. Washington's got a dislocated elbow, though, right? And I know you've been shuffling your backups with the Godfrey signing.

It's not that I couldn't see Washington fielding a good team. I just think it looks pretty unlikely this year.

Yes, Washington does have a dislocated albow. However apparently it is not to big of a deal and he will be starting by week one. I for one like the Godfrey signing. He is a hardnosed vet that knows Greg Williams system. He is much more suited to replace Washington if need be then Marshall. Hopefully though Washington remains healthy and we wont have to see to much of him.

[theebs]

I am actually FAR from a homer. Ask BigDFan5:)

I am not saying they are not a question mark. HOWEVER I would not do ANYTHING to change them at this point. So far for us Suisham has been awesome. I don't see the point of going the usual Redskin route and signing some big name kicker. I feel as though we should see if Suisham is for real or not. Kickers bounce around the league alot before they find a home and become comfortable, it would be awful if we let another David Akers go.

As for Frost, I like him ALOT. I really think he is the real deal. He is a young punter that was inconsistent the last two years but did show signs of brilliance. This preseason he has been nothing short of spectacular. Also, I like that hes not afraid to ruin downfield and jack someone up:)

Good Points and I hear ya. The skins have changed kickers more than any other team in the last 10 years or whatever the stat is. If suisham and frost are playing well then there is no need to change. And like I said I may be misreading frost, the team must like him more than I thought.

[Smashmouth24]

I fully expect the Redskins to revert to 2004 form. Very good defense, very poor offense. 6-10.

[Chocolate Lab]

A ton is going to ride on the quarterback, as it always does. And Campbell hasn't done anything. IMO he won't be horrible, but he won't be that good, either. It'll be interesting to see how he responds to getting pressured and seeing game plans run specifically to confuse him.

And the Skins are still starting some scrub at guard. I mean, Todd Wade? He or whoever beats him out is going to get worked all year. And we all know how bad Jansen has looked. Can't wait to get Ware isolated on him.

Sure, they have some pretty decent players. But what should make them so much better than last year? Fletcher and a rookie safety... That's it, right?

[skinsfunguy]

A ton is going to ride on the quarterback, as it always does. And Campbell hasn't done anything. IMO he won't be horrible, but he won't be that good, either. It'll be interesting to see how he responds to getting pressured and seeing game plans run specifically to confuse him.

And the Skins are still starting some scrub at guard. I mean, Todd Wade? He or whoever beats him out is going to get worked all year. And we all know how bad Jansen has looked. Can't wait to get Ware isolated on him.

Sure, they have some pretty decent players. But what should make them so much better than last year? Fletcher and a rookie safety... That's it, right?

Add McIntosh(who has probably been the MVP of our defense thus far) in there and YES.

These three players along with a healthy Salavea and Griffin and a much improved Golston and Montgomery are a HUGE upgrade over last year. Our defense is flying around with reckless abandon thus far. Hopefully they keep it up.

As far as Landry goes...for a rooke the kid has been straight up PHENOMINAL!!

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/redskins/2007-08-22-laron-landry_N.htm

Click link for full article

Redskins rookie Landry drawing rave early reviews

By Jonah Schuman, USA TODAY


LANDOVER, Md. — Less than one month into training camp, it has become clear to the Washington Redskins that safety LaRon Landry thinks more like a veteran than a 22-year-old rookie.

Never was his maturity more evident than on a first-quarter, first-down play in last week's preseason loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Right before the snap, Landry crept to the line of scrimmage and slid to the right. It left him in perfect position to challenge oncoming Steelers ballcarrier Willie Parker. Landry took down Parker's lead blocker at the knees, and the tailback disappeared behind a tidal wave of Redskins.

It was almost as if Landry had been in the Steelers' huddle.

And while his teammates celebrated the one-yard loss, Landry, as if he had made the play a thousand times before, hopped up and walked directly over to fellow safety Sean Taylor for a brief post-play critique.

"All those guys really helped me out with formation recognition," Landry said of the teammates encouraging his development. "They coach me up after every play. Cornerbacks too. The whole secondary took me in with open arms."

Landry, a 6-0, 213-pound safety out of LSU with a reputation as a playmaker and a big hitter, has taken an all-business approach to his first NFL season, and it's paying dividends.

"My whole attitude is 'take it one day at a time,' " he said. "Working on the little things, whether it's technique, communication, formation recognition. I work on every little thing."

Despite a three-day holdout at the start of training camp, the sixth-overall pick in this year's draft has had little trouble adapting to the speed of the pro game.

Landry has started both of the Redskins' preseason games, and has helped solidify a defense that has yet to give up a touchdown. His rapid adjustment has caught the eye of his coaches.

"It would be hard for anybody to do better than LaRon's done since he's been here," Redskins coach Joe Gibbs said. "In the offseason he was all professional. He is dead serious about football. He's very, very conscientious. I think he's worked extremely hard."

Perhaps the most meaningful praise Landry has earned in his month-long career came from Redskins assistant head coach-defense Gregg Williams, who said the safety has had little problem making pre-snap calls and adjustments — something with which rookies at all positions struggle.

"He is more than sharp enough, more than vocal enough," Williams told reporters last week. "He has had to do that in his career, anyway. He was the guy that was looked upon to do that [at LSU] so he can surely handle it."

The coaching staff has also been impressed with how Landry has handled the pressure of being thrust into the preseason starting lineup.

"We threw him right in there," said Gibbs. "I think he's getting a real battle test here. He's only a rookie, but I can sure tell you this: I like everything that we know about him and that we're seeing him do."

Williams attributes much of the rookie's smooth transition to his work ethic. Landry attended every OTA practice and meeting in the offseason, and the results are apparent on the field.

[REDVOLUTION]

Even 'Skins are hopeful in pre-season...


I dont get it... why are they hopeful?

Arent they the perennial off-season/pre-season SuperBowl champions?:lmao:

[theebs]

A ton is going to ride on the quarterback, as it always does. And Campbell hasn't done anything. IMO he won't be horrible, but he won't be that good, either. It'll be interesting to see how he responds to getting pressured and seeing game plans run specifically to confuse him.

And the Skins are still starting some scrub at guard. I mean, Todd Wade? He or whoever beats him out is going to get worked all year. And we all know how bad Jansen has looked. Can't wait to get Ware isolated on him.

Sure, they have some pretty decent players. But what should make them so much better than last year? Fletcher and a rookie safety... That's it, right?


I hear ya cl, I think the changes/additions on defense are going to be huge. They are going to be a very good group on defense.

I think the biggest thing that is going to help them as I said before is the schedule. 4 of your first 6 at home. 3 against az, detroit and miami..

Their power running game is going to wipe out arizona, miami and detroit. Detroit will get in the end zone a few times, but they wont have the ball enough to compete. They will simply overpower these teams by the design of how they play.

I feel they can overpower green bay right now also. I am not so sure they win that because I am unsure what to make of the packers at this moment, their a head scratcher, talented but young.

I hate to say this but the skins and their aggressive defense and power running game may get off to a gulp.....5-1 or 4-2 start. Then they hit the pats, jets, Dallas....and it gets tougher.

That fast start will give confidence to the defense and the quarterback, much like us in 03. This is how they got back in it in 05, they played the sisters of the poor in st louis and arizona and just ran them over and then beat us and ny and a beaten up eagles team. So if they get that fast start and struggle against the better teams, they are still ahead of the 8 ball.

I hate to say it but I think they are a wild card team.

[sacase]

Add McIntosh(who has probably been the MVP of our defense thus far) in there and YES.

These three players along with a healthy Salavea and Griffin and a much improved Golston and Montgomery are a HUGE upgrade over last year. Our defense is flying around with reckless abandon thus far. Hopefully they keep it up.

As far as Landry goes...for a rooke the kid has been straight up PHENOMINAL!!

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/redskins/2007-08-22-laron-landry_N.htm

Click link for full article

Redskins rookie Landry drawing rave early reviews

By Jonah Schuman, USA TODAY


LANDOVER, Md. — Less than one month into training camp, it has become clear to the Washington Redskins that safety LaRon Landry thinks more like a veteran than a 22-year-old rookie.

Never was his maturity more evident than on a first-quarter, first-down play in last week's preseason loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Right before the snap, Landry crept to the line of scrimmage and slid to the right. It left him in perfect position to challenge oncoming Steelers ballcarrier Willie Parker. Landry took down Parker's lead blocker at the knees, and the tailback disappeared behind a tidal wave of Redskins.

It was almost as if Landry had been in the Steelers' huddle.

And while his teammates celebrated the one-yard loss, Landry, as if he had made the play a thousand times before, hopped up and walked directly over to fellow safety Sean Taylor for a brief post-play critique.

"All those guys really helped me out with formation recognition," Landry said of the teammates encouraging his development. "They coach me up after every play. Cornerbacks too. The whole secondary took me in with open arms."

Landry, a 6-0, 213-pound safety out of LSU with a reputation as a playmaker and a big hitter, has taken an all-business approach to his first NFL season, and it's paying dividends.

"My whole attitude is 'take it one day at a time,' " he said. "Working on the little things, whether it's technique, communication, formation recognition. I work on every little thing."

Despite a three-day holdout at the start of training camp, the sixth-overall pick in this year's draft has had little trouble adapting to the speed of the pro game.

Landry has started both of the Redskins' preseason games, and has helped solidify a defense that has yet to give up a touchdown. His rapid adjustment has caught the eye of his coaches.

"It would be hard for anybody to do better than LaRon's done since he's been here," Redskins coach Joe Gibbs said. "In the offseason he was all professional. He is dead serious about football. He's very, very conscientious. I think he's worked extremely hard."

Perhaps the most meaningful praise Landry has earned in his month-long career came from Redskins assistant head coach-defense Gregg Williams, who said the safety has had little problem making pre-snap calls and adjustments — something with which rookies at all positions struggle.

"He is more than sharp enough, more than vocal enough," Williams told reporters last week. "He has had to do that in his career, anyway. He was the guy that was looked upon to do that [at LSU] so he can surely handle it."

The coaching staff has also been impressed with how Landry has handled the pressure of being thrust into the preseason starting lineup.

"We threw him right in there," said Gibbs. "I think he's getting a real battle test here. He's only a rookie, but I can sure tell you this: I like everything that we know about him and that we're seeing him do."

Williams attributes much of the rookie's smooth transition to his work ethic. Landry attended every OTA practice and meeting in the offseason, and the results are apparent on the field.

so the blocker did what he was supposed to do and block him out of the play. Man that is some spin...

[Chocolate Lab]

I think you overestimate them, Theebs. ;)

Every team save a couple in this league has talent. And for all of them, you could say that if things break just right for them, they're going to have a winning season. But what are the odds of things really breaking just right for any particular team? Slim at best.

I think the Skins will whip Arizona, because they'll be bad once again. But the Lions and Dolphins aren't layups. Lots of people think the Lions are slowly getting better, and I think the Fins will be better with a good QB like Green.

That D-line is just so weak. That's a big, big deficiency.

[skinsfunguy]

so the blocker did what he was supposed to do and block him out of the play. Man that is some spin...

:confused:

Read it again, Landry read the formation and TOOK THE LEAD BLOCKER OUT OF THE PLAY behind the line of scrimmage. He shot the gap so fast the blocker did not even make it back to the line enabling everyone else to swarm the ball carrier.

[DCBoysfan]

:confused:

Read it again, Landry read the formation and TOOK THE LEAD BLOCKER OUT OF THE PLAY behind the line of scrimmage. He shot the gap so fast the blocker did not even make it back to the line enabling everyone else to swarm the ball carrier.


OK I saw the play and he did a good job hitting the gap but he was already at the line and was able to shoot the gap. But the play was not as the writer made it out to be. That play is made alot in football.

[AsthmaField]

The original poster didn't put the author of the article in his post.

Of course the writer is none other than Mark Steven or one Om on Extremeskins. He's a longtime Mod on extremeskins, and while he is a terrific writer (one of the best anywhere on the internet, IMO), he is far, far, far away from unbiased.

Like Yakuza Rich mentions, this is a spin job written for extremeskins all the way.

Good defense in preseason = Good defense in regular season

And of course:

Bad offense in preseason = Good offense in regular season

Typical extremeskins logic in tow there.

The Redskins offense playing poorly against the Steelers is just because they can't go deep into the playbook... thus making it easy for the defense to stop them. You know... the all-time favorite word for extremeskinners... vanilla!

The Steelers offense playing poorly against the Redskins is simply because the Redskins defense is so incredibly dominant that the ball can be barely moved against them. You know... a new buzzword to take over extremeskins... swagger!

Again, oh so typical ES logic.

This goes right along with Art's draft-time classic: "We didn't get any help on the DL therefore we don't need help on the DL or Gibbs would have gotten help there! Do you know more than Gibbs?"

I always get a kick out of ES. I love going over there. It's like peeking into the Jonestown communal settlement in Guyana just before they broke out the koolaid.

[skinsfunguy]

The original poster didn't put the author of the article in his post.

Of course the writer is none other than Mark Steven or one Om on Extremeskins. He's a longtime Mod on extremeskins, and while he is a terrific writer (one of the best anywhere on the internet, IMO), he is far, far, far away from unbiased.

Like Yakuza Rich mentions, this is a spin job written for extremeskins all the way.

Good defense in preseason = Good defense in regular season

And of course:

Bad offense in preseason = Good offense in regular season

Typical extremeskins logic in tow there.

The Redskins offense playing poorly against the Steelers is just because they can't go deep into the playbook... thus making it easy for the defense to stop them. You know... the all-time favorite word for extremeskinners... vanilla!

The Steelers offense playing poorly against the Redskins is simply because the Redskins defense is so incredibly dominant that the ball can be barely moved against them. You know... a new buzzword to take over extremeskins... swagger!

Again, oh so typical ES logic.

This goes right along with Art's draft-time classic: "We didn't get any help on the DL therefore we don't need help on the DL or Gibbs would have gotten help there! Do you know more than Gibbs?"

I always get a kick out of ES. I love going over there. It's like peeking into the Jonestown communal settlement in Guyana just before they broke out the koolaid.

While I'll be the first to admit that there is an ABUNDANCE of homers over at ES(just like on any message board) I am gonna have to respectfully disagree with you. Against the Steelers I saw an offense that moved the ball down the field very well. Now the Titans game was a different story.

[zrinkill]

The original poster didn't put the author of the article in his post.
Of course the writer is none other than Mark Steven or one Om on Extremeskins. He's a longtime Mod on extremeskins

:lmao:

Those silly skin fans can talk themselves into anything.

[AsthmaField]

This response to Om's post was rather funny to me:


Last year the Redskins ranked 26th in Adjusted Swagger + at .751. The Ravens led the league with 1.21. *

Surprisingly, the Redskins were 9th in Confidence Factor at .455. The Patriots were tops at .601. **

Where we really suffered though was Ball Flyingness Equivalent by coming in 31st at .332. Only Cleveland was worse. ***



* These numbers are fake.
** These too
*** I made these up as well.



:laugh2:

http://extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207608

[DCBoysfan]

While I'll be the first to admit that there is an ABUNDANCE of homers over at ES(just like on any message board) I am gonna have to respectfully disagree with you. Against the Steelers I saw an offense that moved the ball down the field very well. Now the Titans game was a different story.


how did they manage to score only ten points then. Other than the drive where Campbell got hurt and Collins came in and was able to move them to a TD. I did'nt see them moving up and down the field.....maybe I was watching the skins and steelers in a bizaro game where they had one scoring driving and you was watching the game were they were going up and down the field.

[Chocolate Lab]

The original poster didn't put the author of the article in his post.

Of course the writer is none other than Mark Steven or one Om on Extremeskins. He's a longtime Mod on extremeskins, and while he is a terrific writer (one of the best anywhere on the internet, IMO), he is far, far, far away from unbiased.

Like Yakuza Rich mentions, this is a spin job written for extremeskins all the way.

Good defense in preseason = Good defense in regular season

And of course:

Bad offense in preseason = Good offense in regular season

Typical extremeskins logic in tow there.

The Redskins offense playing poorly against the Steelers is just because they can't go deep into the playbook... thus making it easy for the defense to stop them. You know... the all-time favorite word for extremeskinners... vanilla!

The Steelers offense playing poorly against the Redskins is simply because the Redskins defense is so incredibly dominant that the ball can be barely moved against them. You know... a new buzzword to take over extremeskins... swagger!

Again, oh so typical ES logic.

This goes right along with Art's draft-time classic: "We didn't get any help on the DL therefore we don't need help on the DL or Gibbs would have gotten help there! Do you know more than Gibbs?"

I always get a kick out of ES. I love going over there. It's like peeking into the Jonestown communal settlement in Guyana just before they broke out the koolaid.:laugh2: Nicely said, AF.

Are they opening up the offensive playbook and showing 3% this year?

[AsthmaField]

:laugh2: Nicely said, AF.

Are they opening up the offensive playbook and showing 3% this year?


I think they're only on page 4 of 700, I believe.

I feel sorry for the rest of the NFL once they get into the double digit pages... and playing against that Defense? Heck, most teams would rather be nailed to the tree of woe...

[REDVOLUTION]

:laugh2: Nicely said, AF.

Are they opening up the offensive playbook and showing 3% this year?


I guess you didnt hear... they have a NEW offensive playbook for 2007 (see below)



















http://www.fetchbook.info/cover/medium/99/1931020299.jpg

Well for Clinton Portis anyways....:lmao:

[skinsfunguy]

how did they manage to score only ten points then. Other than the drive where Campbell got hurt and Collins came in and was able to move them to a TD. I did'nt see them moving up and down the field.....maybe I was watching the skins and steelers in a bizaro game where they had one scoring driving and you was watching the game were they were going up and down the field.

Sorry firefox freaked out on me before I was able to edit.

I thought Campbell did a nice job passing the ball as evidenced by going 6 for 8 for 75 yards. Also, you have to remember that we are tinkering with the LG position and because Samuels is out until week 1 we are using an undrafted rookie FA at LT. Once Samuels gets back I think we will see improvements in the offense both in the running game and in the passing game, I sure hope so at least.

[DCBoysfan]

Sorry firefox freaked out on me before I was able to edit.

I thought Campbell did a nice job passing the ball as evidenced by going 6 for 8 for 75 yards. Also, you have to remember that we are tinkering with the LG position and because Samuels is out until week 1 we are using an undrafted rookie FA at LT. Once Samuels gets back I think we will see improvements in the offense both in the running game and in the passing game, I sure hope so at least.


We have been there, circa...Rob Petti (sp) and Torin Tucker (sp) that makes for a long season

[Bob Sacamano]

Sorry firefox freaked out on me before I was able to edit.

I thought Campbell did a nice job passing the ball as evidenced by going 6 for 8 for 75 yards. Also, you have to remember that we are tinkering with the LG position and because Samuels is out until week 1 we are using an undrafted rookie FA at LT. Once Samuels gets back I think we will see improvements in the offense both in the running game and in the passing game, I sure hope so at least.

didn't 30 come from 1 throw?

[AsthmaField]

For the record, I do think they'll be better on defense. Kind of hard to do that poorly again... but I just can't see them being a dominant type of unit without any help on the DL.

I'll just save the Redskin fans time from typing the following:
* Golsten and Montgomery are suddenly unblockable
* Salave'a and Griffen have healed and found the fountain of youth.
* Gregg Williams said that Andre Carter was the best physical specimine he's ever seen and he should pick up right where he left off... with his blistering pace pressuring the QB.
* Phillip Daniels practically bathed in the fountain of youth and suddenly, after 11 years, he has learned to beat a tackle not named Torrin Tucker.
* Pressure on the QB comes from the DB's.
* You build a defense from back to front instead of the other way around.
* After a year of insanity... Gregg Williams has remembered how to coach his defense and will revert immediately back to 2004 form.

We've heard it all already, so let's just wait until the regular season rolls around to see the new DC Sack Machine.

[Green28]

What does that mean?

It means don't underestimate a Joe Gibbs-coached football team.

[Bob Sacamano]

It means don't underestimate a Joe Gibbs-coached football team.

it's only hurt us once in 3 years:p:

[theebs]

It means don't underestimate a Joe Gibbs-coached football team.


well in that case dont overestimate him either. He has had more losing seasons (2) than winning ones (1) since his return.

[sacase]

It means don't underestimate a Joe Gibbs-coached football team.

Kind of hard to underestimate them after what happend last year.

This quote is rather anoying...I mean Joe Gibbs WAS a HoF coach. But JG II is a looser...he may be able to break even...

[Bull Frog]

It means don't underestimate a Joe Gibbs-coached football team.

He said they were on their last life-line. I like the sound of that, but why are they are their last life line? Is Gibbs retiring? Is it time for Danny to phone a friend?

[zrinkill]

It means don't underestimate a Joe Gibbs-coached football team.

:lmao:

Or what? He will lose to us some more?

[5Stars]

Same off-season garbage coming from the RedStinks...every freaking year, year in and year out!

We should just archive this thread until next off season, break it out around this time next year and save everyone from having to type the same crap over and over and over...!

:eek: Never underestimate a Joe Gibb's coached 5 and 11 team...got it!

[skinsfunguy]

:lmao:

Or what? He will lose to us some more?


Hes 4-2 against you guys in his three seasons back.

[sacase]

Hes 4-2 against you guys in his three seasons back.

hmm I could have sworn it was 3-3...

Don't let those pesky facts get in the way of a good argument.

[apickmans]

hmm I could have sworn it was 3-3...

Don't let those pesky facts get in the way of a good argument.

it is 3-3

[redskins1]

Same off-season garbage coming from the RedStinks...every freaking year, year in and year out!

We should just archive this thread until next off season, break it out around this time next year and save everyone from having to type the same crap over and over and over...!

:eek: Never underestimate a Joe Gibb's coached 5 and 11 team...got it!

I hope what im about to say does not tick off the mods,but you cowboys talk the same thing every year,your pumped your positive,and your club has not won a playoff game in 11 yrs..so why is your team any different from my redskins?

[vicjagger]

The original poster didn't put the author of the article in his post.

Of course the writer is none other than Mark Steven or one Om on Extremeskins. He's a longtime Mod on extremeskins, and while he is a terrific writer (one of the best anywhere on the internet, IMO), he is far, far, far away from unbiased.

This is correct and I am the guilty party. This article is from a blog, written by the Skins fan/moderator mentioned above.

I apologize if anyone thought it was written by a paid journalist.

It is well researched and written....

[AsthmaField]

This is correct and I am the guilty party. This article is from a blog, written by the Skins fan/moderator mentioned above.

I apologize if anyone thought it was written by a paid journalist.

It is well researched and written....


No problem with you... I didn't feel like you were trying to pass it off as a real journalist or anything... I just didn't want everyone here to think it was anything but the biased piece that it is.

[silverbear]

Against the Steelers I saw an offense that moved the ball down the field very well.

LOL... 228 yards of total offense, 3.9 yards per play, is "moving the ball down the field very well"?? 5.1 yards per pass, 2.0 yards per carry, that sounds like a pretty feeble offensive output to me...

[silverbear]

It means don't underestimate a Joe Gibbs-coached football team.

That might have been true once, but isn't any more... this time around, Gibbs is what he is, which is to say he's a sub-.500 coach...

The plain truth is, Gibbs is not doing a good job at all, either as a GM or as a head coach...

[5Stars]

That might have been true once, but isn't any more... this time around, Gibbs is what he is, which is to say he's a sub-.500 coach...

The plain truth is, Gibbs is not doing a good job at all, either as a GM or as a head coach...


Easy! Don't break their little hearts, bear!

:laugh2:

[silverbear]

While our offense has looked a little shaky this preseason, especially in regards to the running game, it should be of note that our left side of the offensive line has been completely different then what it will be once the season starts. We are using an undrafted rookie at LT and are in the process of trying to find Dockerys replacement. I believe once Samuels comes back we will see a MUCH improved offensive line.

This points out two different, rather serious problems the Skins have on the offensive line:

1) You guys don't have an adequate replacement for Derrick Dockery at guard... I suspect this shortcoming will create another problem, in that Dockery gave Rabach more than a little help at center, help Rabach won't be getting this year... so now you have a hole at guard, and some problem at center...

2) You guys have absolutely no quality depth on the offensive line... even one injury that forces a starter out of the lineup will cause the Skins serious issues... two injuries on the line would be quite devastating...

Finally, I'd say if you think that the return of Samuels will fix all the problems on your offensive line, you're in for a major disappointment... it will help, of course, but there will still be problems with that unit...

[silverbear]

Actually our linebackers have looked great this preseason. London Fletcher has been everywhere and 2nd year WLB Rocky McIntosh has probably been our MVP on defense thus far.

While what you say is basically true, it is also true that the Skins are still tinkering with their linebacking corps, having recently sent Lemar Marshall packing and brought in Randall Godfrey...

If the Skins were content with their linebacking corps, I rather doubt they'd be making changes to it at this late date... once again, it looks like a case of your starters being quite adequate, perhaps even good, but your backups represent a serious dropoff in talent...

This has been the Skins' approach for a few years now-- spend all your money on starters, leaving you little to spend on quality backups... this leads to a team that can be competitive so long as they stay really, really healthy... but when the injuries start to pile up, the quality of their play drops off precipitously...

I know that depth is an issue for all teams in the NFL in this era of the salary cap, but the Skins have a good deal less quality depth than most teams...

[silverbear]

Yes, Washington does have a dislocated albow. However apparently it is not to big of a deal and he will be starting by week one.

So, you have the guy who is supposed to be your leading tackler trying to play through a dislocated elbow??

Heck, that shouldn't impair his tackling ability any... :D

I for one like the Godfrey signing. He is a hardnosed vet that knows Greg Williams system.

Godfrey is best known for his cover skills, not for being "hardnosed"... he has more passes defensed and ints than he has sacks...

[silverbear]

Easy! Don't break their little hearts, bear!

:laugh2:

No soup for them!!!

[5Stars]

No soup for them!!!


They don't need any stupid soup! They live on ART Cheese...made by the St.Gibbs/Midget Cheese Factory!

[silverbear]

They don't need any stupid soup! They live on ART Cheese...made by the St.Gibbs/Midget Cheese Factory!

"Art cheese"??

Man, that doesn't even SOUND good... :eek:

[skinsngibbs4life]

For the record, I do think they'll be better on defense. Kind of hard to do that poorly again... but I just can't see them being a dominant type of unit without any help on the DL.



Just out of curiousty, what was 2004 and 2005 then?

[zrinkill]

Hes 4-2 against you guys in his three seasons back.


:lmao2: You must have got those stats from Extreme Skins :lmao:

[Bob Sacamano]

Just out of curiousty, what was 2004 and 2005 then?

it wasn't dominant, just good

[AsthmaField]

Just out of curiousty, what was 2004 and 2005 then?


Fair enough question:

2004 and 2005 were the same thing that 2003 was for Dallas' #1 ranked defense: Not Dominant.

Our #1 ranking was for yards surrendered... just like the 2004 and 2005 top 10 (or top 5) rankings were for you guys. That doesn't make it a dominant defense.

You guys were solid against the run and didn't give up too much through the air... but you still didn't get very many sacks, pressures and turnovers... and neither did the 2003 Dallas Cowboys. That's why none of those units are considered dominant. The Ravens of around 2000 was a dominant defense.

Last year's San Diego unit was much more dominant than the Cowboys 2003 #1 ranked unit. Pressure. Pressure and turnovers. That makes a defense dominant.

Now if you consider good against the run, solid against the pass and ranked even in the top 5 to be a dominating defense... then our definition differs significantly.

With your DL, I just can't see you being a dominating defense. Period. You don't have the horses up front.

[AsthmaField]

As a matter of fact every great defense that I can think of had dominating DL... 4-3 defenses and 46 defenses, particularly. Of course the pressure, dominating players on most 3-4 defenses come from the LB's... so you'd have to include them if talking of 3-4 units.

Washington though plays a 4-3 with a smidge of 46 thrown in. Think of the great defenses:

70's Steelers: Steel-curtain, Joe Green, etc.
70's cowboys: Randy White, Too-Tall Jones, Harvey Martin, John Dutton
85 Bears: Dent, William Perry, Randy McMichael, Dan Hampton
80's Eagles: Jerome Brown, Reggie White, Clyde Simmons, Mike Golic, Mike Pitts.
Heck, even the best Redskins D had Mann, Manly, et. al.

All of those dominating defenses had terrific DL's. All of them.

You think the Redskins will be dominant on D with Carter, Salave'a, Golston, and Wynn/Daniels on the DL? Really?

[jterrell]

lol winning games by 3 points gives you swagger?????

:laugh1:

only in Washington.


As a comparison the 1991-1995 Cowboys won their PLAYOFF games by an average of 18 points... that's what earns you swagger!

[roger white]

the only 'skin that will be swaggerin' is gibbs,back to nascar where he should have stayed.

[HogsRLegends]

You guys ready to get swept again this season?

[Bob Sacamano]

You guys ready to get swept again this season?

since we don't have much to draw from, in order to be ready

no

[skinsscalper]

:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2:

First post here and this is what you come up with? There's this place called extremeskins.com (it's kinda like the virtual a**hole of the internet), check it out. With your level of intellect, they'll probably annoint you their king within minutes.

See ya, princess.

SS

:star:

[theebs]

You guys ready to get swept again this season?


well, here we go.

It was bound to happen sooner or later.

[HogsRLegends]

We do play you guys in November and December, and that will undoubtedly be to our advantage

[Bob Sacamano]

We do play you guys in November and December, and that will undoubtedly be to our advantage

yeah, like you guys are strong in December:laugh1:

[HogsRLegends]

yeah, like you guys are strong in December:laugh1:

Coach Gibbs has one of the best December records in NFL history. I still get chills when our fearless leader led us to the playoffs in 2005 with "5 in a row or we don't go!" Our battlecry!

[zrinkill]

Coach Gibbs has one of the best December records in NFL history. I still get chills when our fearless leader led us to the playoffs in 2005 with "5 in a row or we don't go!" Our battlecry!

:lmao: ok who is joking around ...... not even skin fans are really that stupid.

[big dog cowboy]

We do play you guys in November and December, and that will undoubtedly be to our advantage
Yes undoubtedly it will. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Chocolate Lab]

:lmao: ok who is joking around ...... not even skin fans are really that stupid.

Yeah, this guy can't be real...

[WR17]

The Skins offense is missing its two best players right now, Clinton Portis and Chris Samuels. Samuels is a stud LT and Portis despite the issues from last year is still a top 10 back in this league in terms of talent.

How quickly people forget that Dallas stumbled two years ago when Flozell Adams went down and Flozell isn't even that good. Adding a veteran Pro Bowler back in to the lineup will help a great deal in terms of scheming and play calling. Samuels is one of the most versatile run blockers in the game along with being a solid pass blocker.

[zrinkill]

The Skins offense is missing its two best players right now, Clinton Portis and Chris Samuels. Samuels is a stud LT and Portis despite the issues from last year is still a top 10 back in this league in terms of talent.

How quickly people forget that Dallas stumbled two years ago when Flozell Adams went down and Flozell isn't even that good. Adding a veteran Pro Bowler back in to the lineup will help a great deal in terms of scheming and play calling. Samuels is one of the most versatile run blockers in the game along with being a solid pass blocker.

:lmao: I am starting to believe that these are real redskin fans .....

:lmao2:

[Bob Sacamano]

The Skins offense is missing its two best players right now, Clinton Portis and Chris Samuels. Samuels is a stud LT and Portis despite the issues from last year is still a top 10 back in this league in terms of talent.

How quickly people forget that Dallas stumbled two years ago when Flozell Adams went down and Flozell isn't even that good. Adding a veteran Pro Bowler back in to the lineup will help a great deal in terms of scheming and play calling. Samuels is one of the most versatile run blockers in the game along with being a solid pass blocker.

he's not that worse than Samuels, if at all

you still don't have a LG, so he's going to require help, either from Samuels, or Rabach

[LowTech]

After reading this thread, I've come to a conclusion. Deadskin fans are retarded.




ok.....I already knew they were retarded.




Some of the comments by these deadskin fans are downright unbelieveable.

[silverbear]

We do play you guys in November and December, and that will undoubtedly be to our advantage

Yeah, because with your incredible depth, you'll have a terrific advantage when the injuries start to pile up for all the teams...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... sometimes I crack me up...

[silverbear]

The Skins offense is missing its two best players right now, Clinton Portis and Chris Samuels. Samuels is a stud LT and Portis despite the issues from last year is still a top 10 back in this league in terms of talent.

This points up the incredible lack of depth on the Skins, and should tell you that the only chance they have at seeing .500 is if they stay really, really healthy all year long...

One or two injuries to your starters, and things will start to go downhill pretty freakin' quick... the only exception to that rule is at running back, where Betts ensures the Skins won't miss a beat if Portis goes down...

It's funny, you Skins fans think the injuries excuse the poor play by your offense, and that all you need is to get those injured starters back and you're gonna be ready to ROLL, bay-bee... but it doesn't seem to occur to you that injuries happen to most every team, most every year, and for sure you haven't bothered to contemplate what happens if the injury bug bites you...

[vaturkey]

I live in Redskins country. There biggest problem is their front four and lack of depth. I've give them credit in the back 7, they are far better then average. However, they are onion skin paper thin up front and haven't done much to improve. Lack of draft choices has killed them and they never learn. It all starts up front on D and that will be their downfall.

PS> There O-line isn't a whole lot better when it comes to depth. Both of the Tackles are regressing and there isn't a lot of hope for the future IMO.

Overall record, 7-9 IMO. If both their lines were in better shape, they would be looking at 10-6 at least.

[skinsfunguy]

:lmao: I am starting to believe that these are real redskin fans .....

:lmao2:

He is nowhere near the caliber of Chris Samuels.

[AsthmaField]

We do play you guys in November and December, and that will undoubtedly be to our advantage


I seriously doubt you can count on the Cowboys having a December like we did last year. The coaches on this team now are known for making adjustments when teams find something to exploit... unlike Parcells who was just too stubborn to change.

Plus, like most teams with new staffs, we should be getting better towards the end of the year as the players get more and more used to the schemes. Heck, even though the Redskins only won 5 games last year, they still did improve *some* towards the end of the year on offense as they got used to Saunder's system.

Plus, like other's have said, your roster is precariously thin and just a couple of injuries at the right positions and you'll be staggering down the stretch.

I doubt the timing of these two games are anything close to an advantage for the Redskins.

[skinsfunguy]

:lmao2: You must have got those stats from Extreme Skins :lmao:

Haha dude it was a simple mistake. I dont think its that funny. You wanna talk football though? Lets talk football. See if you can keep up.

[30yrheel]

:lmao: ok who is joking around ...... not even skin fans are really that stupid.

you must not read Extremeskins. The majority of their members must be 12 year old kids because that's the kind of ridiculous stuff they write, although I admit it's good for a laugh. It's even funnier to read when their season comes crashing down again.:laugh2:

[zrinkill]

He is nowhere near the caliber of Chris Samuels.

Samuals 3rd overall pick in the draft, $47 million and a signing bonus of about $16 million. 4 pro bowls

Adams 2nd round pick 38th overall ..... 3 pro bowls

:laugh2:

[zrinkill]

Haha dude it was a simple mistake. I dont think its that funny. You wanna talk football though? Lets talk football. See if you can keep up.

You cannot even keep up with how many games your team has won and you want to "talk football"?

as far as "keeping up" ..... thats what your team has tried to do since the Cowboys came into the league .....

They have failed.

[random Cs]

The original poster didn't put the author of the article in his post.

Of course the writer is none other than Mark Steven or one Om on Extremeskins. He's a longtime Mod on extremeskins, and while he is a terrific writer (one of the best anywhere on the internet, IMO), he is far, far, far away from unbiased. Thank you for clearing that up.

To the OP, you should really include links and at least write the name of the writer. Looking at the ES website it seems you actually deleted the author's name in posting this. Probably OK for a fan blog, but it's very unethical and would be a large no no if this was an article from a larger news source.

[Idgit]

Thank you for clearing that up.

To the OP, you should really include links and at least write the name of the writer. Looking at the ES website it seems you actually deleted the author's name in posting this. Probably OK for a fan blog, but it's very unethical and would be a large no no if this was an article from a larger news source.

It was a Redskins blog article about a preseason game that started out 'Don't look now, the swagger may be back....'

He was doing the author a favor by omitting that byline.

[zrinkill]

It was a Redskins blog article about a preseason game that started out 'Don't look now, the swagger may be back....'

He was doing the author a favor by omitting that byline.

:laugh2: no kidding ...

[Bob Sacamano]

He is nowhere near the caliber of Chris Samuels.

wow, what a homer, Samuels is only above-average

[skinsfunguy]

wow, what a homer, Samuels is only above-average

I have proven time and time again I am not a homer. Ask BigDFan5 he looked up my post history over at ES. I have given credit where credit is due to the cowboys many times. However, you on the other hand let your Redskins hate delude your thinking. This is the only possible explanation for thinking that Chris Samuels is only "above-average" He may not be the best LT in the NFL but he is certainly top five and I would bet most on this site would agree with me.

[Bob Sacamano]

I have proven time and time again I am not a homer. Ask BigDFan5 he looked up my post history over at ES. I have given credit where credit is due to the cowboys many times. However, you on the other hand let your Redskins hate delude your thinking. This is the only possible explanation for thinking that Chris Samuels is only "above-average" He may not be the best LT in the NFL but he is certainly top five and I would bet most on this site would agree with me.

Samuels is a good tackle, but he's not great, so Flozell Adams is very much in his league, or unless you're saying Flozell sucks, is that what you're saying? if so, you are a homer

[WR17]

wow, what a homer, Samuels is only above-average

Your right. The guy was graded by KC Joyner has one of the best tackles in the league for no reason. Widely considered by many of the league scouts as the best run blocking tackle in the league must mean hes only above average right? Its hilarious your putting him in the same category as Flozell Adams. Theres homerism and theres insanity. You might belond to the latter.

[TunaFan33]

Wow-this could very much be a FOUR team NFC East race. All of them have looked impressive from both sides of the ball.

Too bad though that the winner, b/c they're all beating up on each other, may not have a good enough record to have a first round bye.

[WR17]

This points up the incredible lack of depth on the Skins, and should tell you that the only chance they have at seeing .500 is if they stay really, really healthy all year long...

One or two injuries to your starters, and things will start to go downhill pretty freakin' quick... the only exception to that rule is at running back, where Betts ensures the Skins won't miss a beat if Portis goes down...

It's funny, you Skins fans think the injuries excuse the poor play by your offense, and that all you need is to get those injured starters back and you're gonna be ready to ROLL, bay-bee... but it doesn't seem to occur to you that injuries happen to most every team, most every year, and for sure you haven't bothered to contemplate what happens if the injury bug bites you...

Short sighted aren't we? Remmember two seasons ago when Flozell went down? Where was the Cowboy depth back then? Your entire offense took a complete nosedive after Adams injury.

There are certain players you can't replace despite the depth you have. LT is probably the hardest one. Good LT's are incredibly hard to find, getting backups even more.

[TunaFan33]

Short sighted aren't we? Remmember two seasons ago when Flozell went down? Where was the Cowboy depth back then? Your entire offense took a complete nosedive after Adams injury.

There are certain players you can't replace despite the depth you have. LT is probably the hardest one. Good LT's are incredibly hard to find, getting backups even more.

No-not really. Our kicking game, quite frankly, was our undoing in that second half. And if any decently mobile QB had played instead of Led-Slow, we would have been OK.

Hardly anyone here, except for a few posters in this thread, ever said Samuels sux. To me, he's a pretty darn good LT, and a key to that Wash O.

[Bizwah]

Short sighted aren't we? Remmember two seasons ago when Flozell went down? Where was the Cowboy depth back then? Your entire offense took a complete nosedive after Adams injury.

There are certain players you can't replace despite the depth you have. LT is probably the hardest one. Good LT's are incredibly hard to find, getting backups even more.

It wasn't just Flo.

We lost Crayton, Julius Jones, Flo, and Rivera. Rivera played that whole year hurt until his season-ending injury vs you all. He hurt his back a couple of days after we signed him. Jacob Rogers was playing well in camp and was slated to start, but he was injured too.

That being said, our depth this year appears to be much better than two years ago. The Skins depth?

On Samuels.

If you gave me the choice between a healthy Samuels and a healthy Flo, I'd take Samuels. But Flo isn't far behind. I like how one person said that Flo is definitely in Samuels' league.

[Bob Sacamano]

Your right. The guy was graded by KC Joyner has one of the best tackles in the league for no reason. Widely considered by many of the league scouts as the best run blocking tackle in the league must mean hes only above average right? Its hilarious your putting him in the same category as Flozell Adams. Theres homerism and theres insanity. You might belond to the latter.

link?

both him and Flo are good, not great tackles

[zrinkill]

Its hilarious your putting him in the same category as Flozell Adams.

Samuals 3rd overall pick in the draft, $47 million and a signing bonus of about $16 million. 4 pro bowls

Adams 2nd round pick 38th overall ..... 3 pro bowls

:laugh2:

[WR17]

Samuals 3rd overall pick in the draft, $47 million and a signing bonus of about $16 million. 4 pro bowls

Adams 2nd round pick 38th overall ..... 3 pro bowls

:laugh2:

One thing I always see Cowboy fans cry about:

DeAngelo Hall: 3 Pro Bowls

Terrence Newman: 0 Pro Bowls despite being in the league for a longer period of time.

Damn look at ZERO Pro Bowls. Newman must suck :)

[Bob Sacamano]

2006

Dallas RBs running to the left-side: 4.9 ypc

Washington RBs running to the left-side: 4.75

if Samuels is the best run-blocking LT in the league, how come our backs averaged more rushing to the left-side than yours did?

[zrinkill]

One thing I always see Cowboy fans cry about:

DeAngelo Hall: 3 Pro Bowls

Terrence Newman: 0 Pro Bowls despite being in the league for a longer period of time.

Damn look at ZERO Pro Bowls. Newman must suck :)

Corners are put in the Probowl for interceptions .... with you're football knowledge I am not surprised you do not know that.

[Aikbach]

One thing I always see Cowboy fans cry about:

DeAngelo Hall: 3 Pro Bowls

Terrence Newman: 0 Pro Bowls despite being in the league for a longer period of time.

Damn look at ZERO Pro Bowls. Newman must suck :)No, but Shawn Springs and Fred Smoot sure do in my opinion.

[WR17]

2006

Dallas RBs running to the left-side: 4.9 ypc

Washington RBs running to the left-side: 4.75

if Samuels is the best run-blocking LT in the league, how come our backs averaged more rushing to the left-side than yours did?

Very general stat which does no help in answering anything. Put it more in depth. Find me how many times each team ran left and on what situations.

[zrinkill]

2006

Dallas RBs running to the left-side: 4.9 ypc

Washington RBs running to the left-side: 4.75

if Samuels is the best run-blocking LT in the league, how come our backs averaged more rushing to the left-side than yours did?

Ouch ..... that had to hurt.

[Bob Sacamano]

Very general stat which does no help in answering anything. Put it more in depth. Find me how many times each team ran left and on what situations.

I'm working w/ I have, and from the outside, it's not looking too good for your argument

or you could just provide me w/ a link where everyone is raving about Chris Samuels as THE best run-blocking tackle in the game, give me something in rebuttal other than your Washington suckarseskin opinion

[zrinkill]

I'm working w/ I have, and from the outside, it's not looking too good for your argument

or you could just provide me w/ a link where everyone is raving about Chris Samuels as THE best run-blocking tackle in the game, give me something in rebuttal other than your Washington suckarseskin opinion


I am sure it will be a link to Xtremeskins ..... or some fantasy football site (where most of these guys get their info)

;)

[Bob Sacamano]

I am sure it will be a link to Xtremeskins ..... or some fantasy football site (where most of these guys get their info)

;)

it's probably found nowhere, as using terms such as, "it is widely considered" before making a statement, is just a fancy way of saying that you pulled something out of your arse

[WR17]

Corners are put in the Probowl for interceptions .... with you're football knowledge I am not surprised you do not know that.

Excuses excuses. We all know how much the common NFL fan who votes for the Pro Bowl tries to dig deep into NFL stat sites to find stats for offensive lineman.;)

Heres some stats for you:

Flozell last season had 6 penalties (five false starts which is downright putrid) and gave up 7.5 sacks (which is again downright putrid)

Samuels had 4 penalties and gave up only 4 sacks.

Huge difference. Flozell is no where in Samuels league. Every GM in the league would take Chris Samuels over Flozell adams.

[zrinkill]

Sorry skin fan ...... I do not trust the stats any of you trolls try to feed us.

Flozell when Healthy is at least as good as Samuels ..... and alot cheaper.

Samuels is an underachieving 3rd overall pick.

[WR17]

I'm working w/ I have, and from the outside, it's not looking too good for your argument

or you could just provide me w/ a link where everyone is raving about Chris Samuels as THE best run-blocking tackle in the game, give me something in rebuttal other than your Washington suckarseskin opinion

KC Joyner. I'm not wasting my time finding his articles again. If you want you can go ahead and look it up. He also had Samuels and Dockery rated as the best left side in football in regards of run blocking (even when Steve Hutchinson and Walter Jones played together).

[WR17]

Sorry skin fan ...... I do not trust the stats any of you trolls try to feed us.

http://shsdemo.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=4298&team=6

http://shsdemo.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=5032&team=28


Reality is tough to absorb :D

[DallasEast]

Flozell last season had 6 penalties (five false starts which is downright putrid) and gave up 7.5 sacks (which is again downright putrid)

Samuels had 4 penalties and gave up only 4 sacks.

Huge difference.:bang2: 'Huge difference???" Damn, that is so stupid!

[Bob Sacamano]

Flozell has averaged 5.2 sacks given up for his career (not counting '05 since he only played about half a season)

Samuels, 4.9

huge difference, yeah right

and BUWAHAHAHAHA look it up? why waste my time, it's probably not even there

[zrinkill]

http://shsdemo.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=4298&team=6

http://shsdemo.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=5032&team=28


Reality is tough to absorb :D

So in their career

Adams gets .43 penalties per game and .32 sacks per game

Samuels gets .40 penalties per game and .31 sacks per game

:laugh2: yea thats worlds difference


What now Skin fan ..... how much more can you embarrass yourself?

[WR17]

Flozell has averaged 5.2 sacks given up for his career (not counting '05 since he only played about half a season)

Samuels, 4.9

huge difference, yeah right

and BUWAHAHAHAHA look it up? why waste my time, it's probably not even there

Averages are fun, but no a true indicator of play. At this point in there career, Samuels is A FAR better player than Flozell Adams. The stats clearly reflect it for the past several years. Flozell Adams has been an underachiever ever since 2002. A solid start to his career which has clearly gone down the drain since then. Samuels has been a very steady player for the past seasons.

But agian, use your own "averages" and cherry pick the stats that make Flozell look decent. Hes been mediocre every since 2002.

And to whoever called him an underachiever, using your own logic, 7 years in the league and Samuels has made 4 Pro Bowls. What an underachiever :)

[Bob Sacamano]

2006 and 2004 seasons, since FLozell missed most of '05

Julius Jones, 5 ypc running left

Clinton Portis, 4.1 ypc running left

and that's w/ the LG staying the same for Washington, yet Flo having 2 different players lining up next to him at LG both years

I think it's safe to say that no matter the LG, backs average more yards per carry running behind Flo

[zrinkill]

So in their career

Adams gets .43 penalties per game and .32 sacks per game

Samuels gets .40 penalties per game and .31 sacks per game

:laugh2: yea thats worlds difference

You Lose

[Bob Sacamano]

Averages are fun, but no a true indicator of play.

then what are they an indicator of?

At this point in there career, Samuels is A FAR better player than Flozell Adams. The stats clearly reflect it for the past several years.

no they don't

Flozell Adams has been an underachiever ever since 2002. A solid start to his career which has clearly gone down the drain since then. Samuels has been a very steady player for the past seasons.

so has Flo

But agian, use your own "averages" and cherry pick the stats that make Flozell look decent. Hes been mediocre every since 2002.

Samuels has barely been better, so what does that make him?

[WR17]

2006 and 2004 seasons, since FLozell missed most of '05

Julius Jones, 5 ypc running left

Clinton Portis, 4.1 ypc running left

and that's w/ the LG staying the same for Washington, yet Flo having 2 different players lining up next to him at LG both years

Clinton Portis also had nearly double the amount of carries than Julius Jones which is why this stat is skewed.

[zrinkill]

I see my post is being ignored ...... I guess cause you have no answer.

[Bob Sacamano]

Clinton Portis also had nearly double the amount of carries than Julius Jones which is why this stat is skewed.

Clinton had his highest average running to the left side last year, 4.6, on 126 carries, which skews HIS stats

you lose

again!

[WR17]

then what are they an indicator of?



not they don't



so has Flo



Samuels has barely been better, so what does that make him?

Nope. Since 02, Flozell has been declining severly. Three seasons with over 7 sacks given up, two with over 8 penalties. His 2004 season was downright garbage.

Samuels on the other hand has only given up more than 7 sacks once in his career and since 02 has had more than 5 penalties only once.

Its not rocket science to look at those stats and understand how bad Flozell has been since 2002 and how badly Chris Samuels has outplayed him.

[WR17]

I see my post is being ignored ...... I guess cause you have no answer.

Your post is a rip off of what I'm arguing with Bob S. Become original and I might answer you.

[zrinkill]

Its not rocket science to look at those stats and understand how bad Flozell has been since 2002 and how badly Chris Samuels has outplayed him.

Adams gets .43 penalties per game and .32 sacks per game

Samuels gets .40 penalties per game and .31 sacks per game

Almost identical.

[WR17]

Anyways, I'm out for tonight. I'll be back sometime next week again. Take care till then. Don't lose any sleep over the fact that Chris Samuels >>>> Flozell Adams.

[zrinkill]

Your post is a rip off of what I'm arguing with Bob S. Become original and I might answer you.

Bull ....... you have no answer ..... the facts are facts ..... I even took that from the stats YOU posted.

you painted yourself in a corner boy.

[zrinkill]

Anyways, I'm out for tonight. I'll be back sometime next week again. Take care till then. Don't lose any sleep over the fact that Chris Samuels >>>> Flozell Adams.

Run away from the facts

Adams gets .43 penalties per game and .32 sacks per game

Samuels gets .40 penalties per game and .31 sacks per game

:laugh2:

[Bob Sacamano]

Samuels is a better pass-blocker

Flo is a better run-blocker

career averages are almost identical

not much seperation

I'm sorry

[skinsfunguy]

Sorry skin fan ...... I do not trust the stats any of you trolls try to feed us.

Flozell when Healthy is at least as good as Samuels ..... and alot cheaper.

Samuels is an underachieving 3rd overall pick.

See your own Yakuzas blog.

[HighTechDave]

screw the redskins....

[zrinkill]

See your own Yakuzas blog.

I know the stats ..... almost identical

[skinsfunguy]

Run away from the facts

Adams gets .43 penalties per game and .32 sacks per game

Samuels gets .40 penalties per game and .31 sacks per game

:laugh2:

You are one of the most annoying message board debaters i have ever come across. Id be suprised if your liked on your own board.

[skinsfunguy]

Nope. Since 02, Flozell has been declining severly. Three seasons with over 7 sacks given up, two with over 8 penalties. His 2004 season was downright garbage.

Samuels on the other hand has only given up more than 7 sacks once in his career and since 02 has had more than 5 penalties only once.

Its not rocket science to look at those stats and understand how bad Flozell has been since 2002 and how badly Chris Samuels has outplayed him.


There are some stats for you.

What have you done for me lately?

[Bob Sacamano]

Anyways, I'm out for tonight. I'll be back sometime next week again. Take care till then. Don't lose any sleep over the fact that Chris Samuels >>>> Flozell Adams.

Dallas >>>> Washington

hoser

[zrinkill]

You are one of the most annoying message board debaters i have ever come across. Id be suprised if your liked on your own board.

Sorry if you cannot handle the facts ..... but when you Redskin boys come over here trying to warp stats to make your guys look better .... you will get slapped down over it.

If you do not like it ..... run back to Art.

[skinsfunguy]

Sorry if you cannot handle the facts ..... but when you Redskin boys come over here trying to warp stats to make your guys look better .... you will get slapped down over it.

If you do not like it ..... run back to Art.

You are the one warping stats. WR17 has made it very clear how they have both played since 2002.

What have you done for me lately?

[zrinkill]

There are some stats for you.

What have you done for me lately?

Beaten you're team 16 of the last 22 times.

[Bob Sacamano]

zrin, let's give them LT, although Flo is a better run-blocker, and not that much worse in pass-protection, God knows they don't have much else to crow about

[skinsfunguy]

Beaten you're team 16 of the last 22 times.

Completely irrevlevant, but I expect nothing less from you.

[zrinkill]

You are the one warping stats. WR17 has made it very clear how they have both played since 2002.

Yea .... almost identical as Adams ....

[zrinkill]

zrin, let's give them LT, although Flo is a better run-blocker, and not that much worse in pass-protection, God knows they don't have much else to crow about

We have been saying the whole time how they are almost identicle ..... but the silly skin fans want to keep saying how Samuels is head and shoulders better.

Which of course anyone can see is bullcrap.

[zrinkill]

Completely irrevlevant, but I expect nothing less from you.

As I do from a troll such as yourself.

[skinsfunguy]

We have been saying the whole time how they are almost identicle ..... but the silly skin fans want to keep saying how Samuels is head and shoulders better.

Which of course anyone can see is bullcrap.

By KC Joyner, ESPN.com

The Denver Broncos (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=den)' offensive run-blocking group (OL/TE/FB) had the highest overall metrics in 2005, but for my money, the Redskins had the best set of blockers last year. Chris Samuels (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5032) and Derrick Dockery (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6417) had the best set of metrics of any guard/tackle combination (and that does include the Walter Jones (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=3949)/Steve Hutchinson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5464) tandem). Samuels topped the 90 percent mark in run-blocking success percentage, and Dockery missed the 90 percent mark by a mere 0.5 percent.
The right side of the Skins' line had very good metrics as well. Jon Jansen (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4686) and Randy Thomas (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4707) both ranked in the top 20 at their positions in run-blocking success percentage.
Combine this great run blocking with a platoon of Clinton Portis (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5937), T.J. Duckett (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5904) and Ladell Betts (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5942), and the Redskins could vie for the No. 1 rushing offense in 2006.

[Bob Sacamano]

Completely irrevlevant, but I expect nothing less from you.

how about earning some stripes before popping off, kid?

[skinsfunguy]

As I do from a troll such as yourself.

Exactly how am i a troll?

[Bob Sacamano]

By KC Joyner, ESPN.com

The Denver Broncos (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=den)' offensive run-blocking group (OL/TE/FB) had the highest overall metrics in 2005, but for my money, the Redskins had the best set of blockers last year. Chris Samuels (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5032) and Derrick Dockery (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6417) had the best set of metrics of any guard/tackle combination (and that does include the Walter Jones (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=3949)/Steve Hutchinson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5464) tandem). Samuels topped the 90 percent mark in run-blocking success percentage, and Dockery missed the 90 percent mark by a mere 0.5 percent.
The right side of the Skins' line had very good metrics as well. Jon Jansen (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4686) and Randy Thomas (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4707) both ranked in the top 20 at their positions in run-blocking success percentage.
Combine this great run blocking with a platoon of Clinton Portis (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5937), T.J. Duckett (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5904) and Ladell Betts (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5942), and the Redskins could vie for the No. 1 rushing offense in 2006.

touche

[zrinkill]

By KC Joyner, ESPN.com

The Denver Broncos (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=den)' offensive run-blocking group (OL/TE/FB) had the highest overall metrics in 2005, but for my money, the Redskins had the best set of blockers last year. Chris Samuels (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5032) and Derrick Dockery (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6417) had the best set of metrics of any guard/tackle combination (and that does include the Walter Jones (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=3949)/Steve Hutchinson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5464) tandem). Samuels topped the 90 percent mark in run-blocking success percentage, and Dockery missed the 90 percent mark by a mere 0.5 percent.
The right side of the Skins' line had very good metrics as well. Jon Jansen (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4686) and Randy Thomas (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=4707) both ranked in the top 20 at their positions in run-blocking success percentage.
Combine this great run blocking with a platoon of Clinton Portis (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5937), T.J. Duckett (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5904) and Ladell Betts (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5942), and the Redskins could vie for the No. 1 rushing offense in 2006.

Where in that article does it say how much better Samuels is than Adams?

Or is this more irrelevant crap to keep the focus off of your silly claims?

[zrinkill]

Exactly how am i a troll?

You are the one who started getting personal.

[TunaFan33]

Where in that article does it say how much better Samuels is than Adams?

Or is this more irrelevant crap to keep the focus off of your silly claims?

Why are we having this silly discussion?

Neither are exactly perfect, but nonetheless a BIG key to our O's, especially our pass protection O's.

It's mystifying how alot of people undervalue that LT position.

[zrinkill]

Why are we having this silly discussion?


How quickly people forget that Dallas stumbled two years ago when Flozell Adams went down and Flozell isn't even that good.

He is nowhere near the caliber of Chris Samuels.

Skin fans making stupid remarks

[Bob Sacamano]

Skin fans making stupid remarks

why that upsets us, I'll never know, we should be used to it lol

[skinsfunguy]

Where in that article does it say how much better Samuels is than Adams?

Or is this more irrelevant crap to keep the focus off of your silly claims?

KC Joyner

Overrated pass-blockers

Walter Jones
Jones is widely regarded as the greatest pass-blocking left tackle in the league, but he gave up eight sacks last year -- the highest sack total allowed by any of the nine tackles either voted into the Pro Bowl or chosen as injury replacements. Jones also allowed one offensive holding penalty as well. He is still one of the better offensive linemen in the NFL, but his 2006 performance was well below his typical standard.

Flozell Adams
Adams was chosen as an injury replacement for the Pro Bowl, but his metrics were also mediocre. Adams allowed seven sacks, including four individual effort sacks. Adams also was called for one offensive holding penalty, and a crackback block penalty as well.

[Bob Sacamano]

I don't know how Flo could be overrated as a pass-blocker, everyone and their mother knows that he struggles w/ speed

[zrinkill]

But he is a better Run Blocker

[tomson75]

Wierd. Skins fans and Joyner's "metrics"...never seen that combination before. :banghead:

[zrinkill]

why that upsets us, I'll never know, we should be used to it lol

Does not upset me ..... I love putting them in their place.

[skinsfunguy]

But he is a better Run Blocker


You really think Adams is a better run blocker then Samuels?

[zrinkill]

Weird. Skins fans and Joyner's "metrics"...never seen that combination before. :banghead:

Art told them they have the best line in the league ...... so they believe it.

[skinsfunguy]

Wierd. Skins fans and Joyner's "metrics"...never seen that combination before. :banghead:

Funny, I seem to see alot of Joyners metics used around here to prove how good Terrance Newman is.

[Bob Sacamano]

You really think Adams is a better run blocker then Samuels?

backs seem to do better running to his side, no matter the man lining up next to him at LG

[TunaFan33]

You really think Adams is a better run blocker then Samuels?

As bad as Torren Tucker was, when Flo went down, I nonetheless noticed our run game on the left side improved. As bad as Torren was pass blocking, he was an excellent run blocker.

Too bad Tuna not only failed to utilize him well(his natural position is at Guard), but he also shot his confidences to pieces.(After giving up 4 sacks to Phil Daniels, he reportedly broke down and cried in the locker room afterwards)

With that being said-I'm happy with Adams-don't care how better or worse he is that others, but he makes our overall O click well.

[skinsfunguy]

Art told them they have the best line in the league ...... so they believe it.

For the last time, I am NOT a homer. Go look up my posts at extremeskins, my handle is funguy1286. You will see i am VERY critical of my team, to the point where some people say I'm not even a fan of the team. I am a 100% realist when it comes to the Redskins. You will also see that I gave the Cowboys there due this preseason.

I am aware there are A LOT of problems with my organization but I still stand by the fact that Chris Samuels is a better LT then Flozell. Period.

[zrinkill]

Funny thing is next year when we let Adams walk and the redskins pick him up they will be claiming he is the best linemen in the game.

:laugh2:

[tomson75]

Funny, I seem to see alot of Joyners metics used around here to prove how good Terrance Newman is.

...thank you for furthering my point.

The flaws in his metrics have been exposed...yet every time they come up...there's some silly skins fan trying to regurgitate the same crap.

I know how good Newman is without having to use Joyner's metrics.

[Bob Sacamano]

For the last time, I am NOT a homer. Go look up my posts at extremeskins, my handle is funguy1286. You will see i am VERY critical of my team, to the point where some people say I'm not even a fan of the team. I am a 100% realist when it comes to the Redskins. You will also see that I gave the Cowboys there due this preseason.

I am aware there are A LOT of problems with my organization but I still stand by the fact that Chris Samuels is a better LT then Flozell. Period.

noone's debating that, just the retarded idea that Samuels is somehow out of this world compared to him

[zrinkill]

Chris Samuels is a better LT then Flozell. Period.

I agreed to that along time ago ..... he is just not much better.

[TunaFan33]

For the last time, I am NOT a homer. Go look up my posts at extremeskins, my handle is funguy1286. You will see i am VERY critical of my team, to the point where some people say I'm not even a fan of the team. I am a 100% realist when it comes to the Redskins. You will also see that I gave the Cowboys there due this preseason.

I am aware there are A LOT of problems with my organization but I still stand by the fact that Chris Samuels is a better LT then Flozell. Period.

Again-they're BOTH GOOD. If either goes down, their respective O's will be hurt tremendously.

So who cares which one is better?

[skinsfunguy]

Sorry skin fan ...... I do not trust the stats any of you trolls try to feed us.

Flozell when Healthy is at least as good as Samuels ..... and alot cheaper.

Samuels is an underachieving 3rd overall pick.

You agreed that Samuels is better a long time ago??

[skinsfunguy]

Again-they're BOTH GOOD. If either goes down, their respective O's will be hurt tremendously.

So who cares which one is better?


I can live with this.

[Bob Sacamano]

Again-they're BOTH GOOD. If either goes down, their respective O's will be hurt tremendously.

So who cares which one is better?

I don't, just the stink fans have to make a big deal out of it, and exaggerate the claim, since that's one of the few positions that they are better than us at

[zrinkill]

You agreed that Samuels is better a long time ago?/

Yes ..... but for a overall 3rd round pick to be a little better than a mid second round pick .... thats underachieving.

You notice I did not say Flo was better (cept at run blocking)

[skinsfunguy]

I don't, just the stink fans have to make a big deal out of it, and exaggerate the claim, since that's one of the few positions that they are better than us at

Haha I was just engaging in debate. Im willing to debate other positions as well.

Theres two reasons I frequent this site

1.) to learn about my teams most hated division rival
2.) to discuss the two teams with my teams most hated division rival(being at extremeskins and hearing about how this is the year ever day can get boring)

[Bob Sacamano]

Haha I was just engaging in debate. Im willing to debate other positions as well.

Theres two reasons I frequent this site

1.) to learn about my teams most hated division rival
2.) to discuss the two teams with my teams most hated division rival(being at extremeskins and hearing about how this is the year ever day can get boring)

I'm sure you are, I'm just saying, we're better in alot of categories than you, so I can understand your guys' need to exaggerate whenever you get one over us

[skinsfunguy]

Yes ..... but for a overall 3rd round pick to be a little better than a mid second round pick .... thats underachieving.

You notice I did not say Flo was better (cept at run blocking)

Ugh, but hes not better at run blocking, in fact, Joyner has him as one of the best. Possibly THE best.

[zrinkill]

so I can see why you guys are exagerrating whenever you get one over us

:muttley:

[Bob Sacamano]

Ugh, but hes not better at run blocking, in fact, Joyner has him as one of the best. Possibly THE best.

from that link? that was for '05, his metrics do change you know? he had Newman w/ very high '05 metrics, but lower '06 ones

[zrinkill]

Possibly THE best.

:rolleyes:

Here we go again.

[Bob Sacamano]

:rolleyes:

Here we go again.

fub it, let 'em have it

Samuels, All-Pro!

[skinsfunguy]

I'm sure you are, I'm just saying, we're better in alot of categories than you, so I can see why you guys are exagerrating whenever you get one over us

Ill agree with that.

Positions I feel we are better at then you:

Offense
1.) RB-This can not be debated
2.) FB
3.) LT
4.) C

Defense is hard because of the different systems we run. However, that said, I feel we have a better FS and i honestly think Landry could be better than Roy Williams THIS YEAR. Bold prediction I know but so far he has been magnificent. You guys have the edge as far as cornerback.

Care to debate on any of these?

[skinsfunguy]

from that link? that was for '05, his metrics do change you know? he had Newman w/ very high '05 metrics, but lower '06 ones

Well considering Betts ran wild over that left side last year the last seven games I doubt much has changed.

[Bob Sacamano]

I can agree w/ your ranking at what you're better at, RB, FB, C, although I think FB and C is real, real close

However that said I feel we have a better FS

your boy Joyner's metrics say otherwise

and i honestly think Landry could be better than Roy Williams THIS YEAR. Bold prediction I know but so far he has been magnificent.

last I checked Roy was really good, and will be in his comfort zone, near the LOS, just like Landry, so yeah, a really bold prediction there, but as far as D's go, I think we have the better pass-rush by far, and more playmaking ability, in fact we were better last year in those 2 areas and I don't see that changing

[Bob Sacamano]

Well considering Betts ran wild over that left side last year the last seven games I doubt much has changed.

we averaged 4.9ypc running to the left-side, same as Betts

[skinsfunguy]

I can agree w/ your ranking at what you're better at, RB, FB, C, although I think FB and C is real, real close



your boy Joyner's metrics say otherwise



last I checked Roy was really good, and will be in his comfort zone, near the LOS, just like Landry, so yeah, a really bold prediction there, but as far as D's go, I think we have the better pass-rush by far, and more playmaking ability, in fact we were better last year in those 2 areas and I don't see that changing

Just as Roy will be comfortable up close to the LOS this year Sean Taylor will be comfortable playing centerfield. Last year the FS and SS positions were not defined, this year they will be.

As I said it was a bold prediction but i had to make one right;)

I also feel we may have a slight edge at TE just because Cooley is defintely a better blocker than Witten and a comparable reciever.

[skinsfunguy]

we averaged 4.9ypc running to the left-side, same as Betts

So then you can't really say Flozell is better than Samuels in regards to run blocking. Right?

[zrinkill]

Offense
1.) RB-This can not be debated
2.) FB
3.) LT
4.) C


I will give you running back and a slight edge at left tackle and FB

I do not agree on Center.

[Bob Sacamano]

Just as Roy will be comfortable up close to the LOS this year Sean Taylor will be comfortable playing centerfield. Last year the FS and SS positions were not defined, this year they will be.

but when has Taylor ever been good as a CFielder? he's never had as good a year as Hamlin had in '04

As I said it was a bold prediction but i had to make one right;)

hey, it's better than Brandon Lloyd>>>Terry Glenn LOL

I also feel we may have a slight edge at TE just because Cooley is defintely a better blocker than Witten and a comparable reciever.

eh, push, Witten is going to go wild this year though

[zrinkill]

I also feel we may have a slight edge at TE just because Cooley is defintely a better blocker than Witten and a comparable reciever.

:laugh2: no

[Bob Sacamano]

So then you can't really say Flozell is better than Samuels in regards to run blocking. Right?

you have a point

[skinsfunguy]

:laugh2: no


Why? Because of probowls? Notice I said slight advantage, this one is pretty even but its just my opinion. Like I said my reasoning is due to Wittens struggles when it comes to blocking, Cooley is more then adaquete when it comes to this.

[zrinkill]

Why? Because of probowls? Notice I said slight advantage, this one is pretty even but its just my opinion. Like I said my reasoning is due to Wittens struggles when it comes to blocking, Cooley is more then adaquete when it comes to this.

Where do you get that Witten struggles at blocking? Cooley is a better Blocker but Witten is a much better receiver.

Dont get me wrong .... I would love to have Cooley as a backup and in on running plays

[skinsfunguy]

2006 stats

Cooley: 57 receptions, 734 yards, 6 touchdowns
Witten: 64 receptions, 754 yards, 1 touchdown

2005 stats

Cooley: 71 receptions, 774 yards, 7 touchdowns
Witten: 66 receptions, 757 yards, 6 touchdowns

Last two years

Cooley: 128 receptions, 1508 yards, 13 touchdowns
Witten: 130 receptions, 1511, yards, 7 touchdowns

Not much difference huh? The only big advantage is Cooleys 6 more touchdowns.

[skinsfunguy]

Where do you get that Witten struggles at blocking? Cooley is a better Blocker but Witten is a much better receiver.

Dont get me wrong .... I would love to have Cooley as a backup and in on running plays

2006 stats

Cooley: 57 receptions, 734 yards, 6 touchdowns
Witten: 64 receptions, 754 yards, 1 touchdown

2005 stats

Cooley: 71 receptions, 774 yards, 7 touchdowns
Witten: 66 receptions, 757 yards, 6 touchdowns

Last two years

Cooley: 128 receptions, 1508 yards, 13 touchdowns
Witten: 130 receptions, 1511, yards, 7 touchdowns

Witten is a much better reciever?

[Bob Sacamano]

Witten's career year was one of the best in history for a TE

I would say it's a push

[skinsfunguy]

but when has Taylor ever been good as a CFielder? he's never had as good a year as Hamlin had in '04



hey, it's better than Brandon Lloyd>>>Terry Glenn LOL



eh, push, Witten is going to go wild this year though

He was a very good center fielder in '05


Hahaha anyone who says that has the largest pair of burguny and gold glasses in the world


And I feel Cooley is going to go wild. Him and Campbell seem to have GREAT chemistry. Cooley was having a subpar year last year until Campbell got in and this years preseason has been no different

[skinsfunguy]

Witten's career year was one of the best in history for a TE

I would say it's a push


A push works, like I said they are very close.

[Bob Sacamano]

He was a very good center fielder in '05

Joyner has him ranked very low in his '05 metrics

Hahaha anyone who says that has the largest paid or burguny and gold glasses in the world

we got that alot last year, believe it or not, then reality set in

And I feel Cooley is going to go wild. Him and Campbell seem to have GREAT chemistry. Cooley was having a subpar year last year until Campbell got in and this years preseason has been no different

why I say Witten is going to go wild is because our new OC Jason Garrett is implementing alot of plays that has the TEs attack the deep middle of the field, it's making our backup TE Anthony Fasano look really good this preseason, just imagine what it will do to Witten

[skinsfunguy]

Joyner has him ranked very low in his '05 metrics



we got that alot last year, believe it or not, then reality set in



why I say Witten is going to go wild is because our new OC Jason Garrett is implementing alot of plays that has the TEs attack the deep middle of the field, it's making our backup TE Anthony Fasano look really good this preseason, just imagine what it will do to Witten

Intereting, I thought he did great.

Eh, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt if it was last year. He did do pretty well the year before in San Francisco with a TERRIBLE team. However; that said, I was against that trade fromthe beginning.

I guess we'll see. The NFC east definitely has the best TE'S top to bottom of any division. I just hope we lock cooley up before the season is over.

Zrinkill...you seem to have dissapeared. Still think Witten is a "much better reciever" then Cooley;)

[zrinkill]

Zrinkill...you seem to have dissapeared. Still think Witten is a "much better reciever" then Cooley;)

Yes ...... better than Samuels is to Adams :laugh2:

[ScipioCowboy]

2006 stats

Cooley: 57 receptions, 734 yards, 6 touchdowns
Witten: 64 receptions, 754 yards, 1 touchdown

2005 stats

Cooley: 71 receptions, 774 yards, 7 touchdowns
Witten: 66 receptions, 757 yards, 6 touchdowns

Last two years

Cooley: 128 receptions, 1508 yards, 13 touchdowns
Witten: 130 receptions, 1511, yards, 7 touchdowns

Witten is a much better reciever?

Yes. In Dallas' offense, Witten is competing with Terrell Owens, Terry Glenn, and Patrick Crayton for receptions. In Washington's offense, Cooley is the only other starting caliber receiver not named Santana Moss.

[silverbear]

Your right. The guy was graded by KC Joyner has one of the best tackles in the league for no reason.

And Joyner is known around the league as such a football guru that he's being sought after by numerous teams to help out their personnel departments... LOL...

[silverbear]

Short sighted aren't we? Remmember two seasons ago when Flozell went down? Where was the Cowboy depth back then? Your entire offense took a complete nosedive after Adams injury.

Given that we didn't have the depth then that we do now, that argument only serves to prove my point...

There are certain players you can't replace despite the depth you have. LT is probably the hardest one.

If, God forbid, Adams were to suffer a season-ending injury, Pat McQuistan would step in and do a good, solid job for the Boys... indeed, the only position on the current offensive line that doesn't have a backup that I'd be confident in if they were pressed into starting duty is at center...

[silverbear]

One thing I always see Cowboy fans cry about:

DeAngelo Hall: 3 Pro Bowls

Terrence Newman: 0 Pro Bowls despite being in the league for a longer period of time.

Damn look at ZERO Pro Bowls. Newman must suck :)


Naw, that's just what happens to ya when you're so good that teams are afraid to throw you way... you don't get the ints, you don't make the Pro Bowl...

You just need to learn how to look at things in the right way... :D

[silverbear]

Averages are fun, but no a true indicator of play.

Actually, there's no better indicator of play than averages...

At this point in there career, Samuels is A FAR better player than Flozell Adams.

And yet, they both made the Pro Bowl last year... in addition, Adams has made the Pro Bowl in 3 of the last 4 seasons (2003, 2004 and 2006), only missing it when he was hurt in 2005, while Samuels has made the Pro Bowl twice in that time (2005 and 2006)...

But agian, use your own "averages" and cherry pick the stats that make Flozell look decent. Hes been mediocre every since 2002.

Yeah, he's only been a perennial Pro Bowler these last 4 years, only missing making that team once in those 4 years, that being the year he missed the last 10 games to injury...

It really is sad, your desperate need to try to prop up Chris Samuels by trashing Flozell Adams... sad, and quite stupid...

[silverbear]

Averages are fun, but no a true indicator of play. At this point in there career, Samuels is A FAR better player than Flozell Adams. The stats clearly reflect it for the past several years.

Not the stats you shared with us... they actually show two very comparable players... Adams is bigger and stronger than Samuels, Chris is a good deal more mobile than Flo is... Samuels would not be a good fit in the Cowboys' system, Adams would not be a good fit in the Skins'...

[silverbear]

Clinton Portis also had nearly double the amount of carries than Julius Jones which is why this stat is skewed.

You really don't understand the concept of "averages", do you?? :D

[silverbear]

Anyways, I'm out for tonight. I'll be back sometime next week again. Take care till then. Don't lose any sleep over the fact that Chris Samuels >>>> Flozell Adams.

BS from Skins trolls has never caused me to lose any sleep...

[silverbear]

You are one of the most annoying message board debaters i have ever come across. Id be suprised if your liked on your own board.

Being bludgeoned by the truth annoys you, does it?? I understand, if you hang out much at extremeskins, you're not used to folks being allowed to express anything other than the party line, but you'd best get used to having to deal with REALITY if you wish to participate in our dialogue...

We don't drink the burgundy kool-aid in here, and we never will... we're quite capable of looking at your team with an unbiased eye, which it seems is more than you're capable of doing...

[silverbear]

Sorry if you cannot handle the facts ..... but when you Redskin boys come over here trying to warp stats to make your guys look better .... you will get slapped down over it.

If you do not like it ..... run back to Art.

Yeah, go tell that wuss to bring his debating style over here, where he can't "win" just by banning those who are punking him... :D

[silverbear]

zrin, let's give them LT, although Flo is a better run-blocker, and not that much worse in pass-protection, God knows they don't have much else to crow about

Never give the godless heathens anything other than the back of your hand... ;)

[silverbear]

We have been saying the whole time how they are almost identicle ..... but the silly skin fans want to keep saying how Samuels is head and shoulders better.

Which of course anyone can see is bullcrap.

You just don't understand Skins Logic... lemme see if I can help here...

Skins Logic says that any player who plays for them is the best player who ever played that position... right up to the time they go play for somebody else, at which point they become stiffs who never could play the game, and are no big loss, really...

I call it the Adam Archuleta syndrome...

[silverbear]

By KC Joyner, ESPN.com

KC Joyner is a fantasy geek who has never been employed by any NFL team... it's comical, that you hold him up as some sort of definitive expert on the game, when he probably couldn't figure out how to put on a jock strap...

I have read some of his chat wraps, and laughed at his take on the Cowboys... among other things, he's tried to tell us that Kyle Kosier was one of the Cowboys' very best blockers last year (according to his "metrics"), when any Cowboys fan who watched their games last year considers him the weak link in the line this year...

[silverbear]

You really think Adams is a better run blocker then Samuels?


Yup... and the numbers, as provided by Bob Sacamano, prove it...

[silverbear]

backs seem to do better running to his side, no matter the man lining up next to him at LG

And our backs are not as good as the Skins' backs are...

[silverbear]

...thank you for furthering my point.

The flaws in his metrics have been exposed...yet every time they come up...there's some silly skins fan trying to regurgitate the same crap.

I know how good Newman is without having to use Joyner's metrics.

I have never used Joyner's metrics in any argument, and I never will... I don't believe in his approach to analyzing the game...

I laugh at baseball fans who tout their "sabremetrics", too...

[silverbear]

I agreed to that along time ago ..... he is just not much better.

As far as I'm concerned, it's six of one, a half dozen of the other... there really isn't enough difference between the two of them talent-wise to merit a debate...

If you want a mauler out at LT, then Adams ought to be your preference, but if you want a technician, go with Samuels... two different players, two very different ways of getting the job done, but both have been quite effective...

[silverbear]

Ill agree with that.

Positions I feel we are better at then you:

4.) C

Casey Rabach can't carry Andre Gurode's jockstrap... I've already covered my opinions re: the left tackle situation, no need to rehash that...

However, that said, I feel we have a better FS and i honestly think Landry could be better than Roy Williams THIS YEAR. Bold prediction I know

More like silly homerism...

[silverbear]

I also feel we may have a slight edge at TE just because Cooley is defintely a better blocker than Witten and a comparable reciever.

Close, but no cigar... first off, while I give Cooley the edge as a blocker, it's only a small edge (Witten's blocking is rather underrated)... and Witten is the superior receiver:

Cooley, the last 3 seasons: 165 receptions, 1822 yards...

Witten, the last 3 seasons: 217 receptions, 2491 yards...

This despite the Cowboys having a wider array of weapons in the passing game than the Skins have had during that time, IOW more players getting their share of the catches than the Skins have had...

Now, I'm not saying Cooley isn't a good weapon in the passing game, he is... but he's not on the level of Witten as a receiver, not yet anyway...

But the real tipping point at TE, IMO, lies in the Cowboys' superior depth... Anthony Fasano is better than any TE not named Cooley on the Skins' roster, and he has raised the level of his play this preseason, compared to last season... combine this with the renewed emphasis on the TE that we've seen in Jason Garrett's offensive schemes this preseason, and I feel confident that our TEs are gonna have their best season in quite a while...

[silverbear]

2006 stats

Cooley: 57 receptions, 734 yards, 6 touchdowns
Witten: 64 receptions, 754 yards, 1 touchdown

2005 stats

Cooley: 71 receptions, 774 yards, 7 touchdowns
Witten: 66 receptions, 757 yards, 6 touchdowns

Last two years

Cooley: 128 receptions, 1508 yards, 13 touchdowns
Witten: 130 receptions, 1511, yards, 7 touchdowns

Not much difference huh? The only big advantage is Cooleys 6 more touchdowns.


LOL... way to play fast and loose with the stats... how 'bout you compare the last THREE seasons?? I mean, I completely understand why you left out the 04 stats, Cooley had 37 catches for 314 yards, Witten had 50 more catches and over three times as many yards (87 for 980)... both played in all 16 games that year, so why did you leave those numbers out??

As for the 6 more TDs, that's easy to explain-- the Cowboys have more weapons to go to down in the red zone than the Skins do... first, they had Keyshawn Johnson and his fade routes, then they had TO and his size...

Barber had 16 TDs last season, all of them in the red zone; TO had 13 TDs, many of them in the red zone... meanwhile, Cooley's 6 TDs led the Skins...

[ScipioCowboy]

More like silly homerism...



Homerism? Surely you jest! You only need to ask so-and-so Cowboy fan or visit the Skins' board and search under the so-and-so handle. Then, you'll see quite plainly that skinsfunguy exudes objectivity. It's his hallmark.

[/sarcasm]


Sorry. I figured I would post this canned response before he got the chance. If I had to read that line again, I think I would scream.
:laugh2:

[silverbear]

why I say Witten is going to go wild is because our new OC Jason Garrett is implementing alot of plays that has the TEs attack the deep middle of the field, it's making our backup TE Anthony Fasano look really good this preseason, just imagine what it will do to Witten

Even Tony Curtis, a scrub if there ever was one, has had a big preseason at TE for the Boys, catching 5 passes for 74 yards thus far...

In their first two preseason games, the Boys have completed 11 passes to their TEs, for 133 yards... that would project to 88 catches, for 1060 yards plus, for a 16 game season... that's with Jason Witten on the bench, most of that time (he had 1 of those 11 receptions)...

Yup, Jason Garrett is making the TE a centerpiece of his offensive philosophy... this should lead to Jason putting up some pretty good numbers (barring injury, of course)...

For contrast, the Skins have also completed 11 passes to their TEs this preseason, for 157 yards... that's with Cooley catching 5 of those passes...

Like I said, to me the real advantage for the Boys at TE lies in their superior quality among the backups... the Boys would not be screwed as badly by losing Witten as the Skins would be by losing Cooley, Fasano could step into the lead role at TE and give the team 50-60 catches...

[silverbear]

Homerism? Surely you jest! You only need to ask so-and-so Cowboy fan or visit the Skins' board and search under the so-and-so handle. Then, you'll see quite plainly that skinsfunguy exudes objectivity. It's his hallmark.

[/sarcasm]


Sorry. I figured I would post this canned response before he got the chance. If I had to read that line again, I think I would scream.
:laugh2:

Skinsfunguy isn't as bad as most Skins homers, particularly those that haunt the ES board, but he still has his moments...

[skinsfunguy]

Close, but no cigar... first off, while I give Cooley the edge as a blocker, it's only a small edge (Witten's blocking is rather underrated)... and Witten is the superior receiver:

Cooley, the last 3 seasons: 165 receptions, 1822 yards...

Witten, the last 3 seasons: 217 receptions, 2491 yards...

This despite the Cowboys having a wider array of weapons in the passing game than the Skins have had during that time, IOW more players getting their share of the catches than the Skins have had...

Now, I'm not saying Cooley isn't a good weapon in the passing game, he is... but he's not on the level of Witten as a receiver, not yet anyway...

But the real tipping point at TE, IMO, lies in the Cowboys' superior depth... Anthony Fasano is better than any TE not named Cooley on the Skins' roster, and he has raised the level of his play this preseason, compared to last season... combine this with the renewed emphasis on the TE that we've seen in Jason Garrett's offensive schemes this preseason, and I feel confident that our TEs are gonna have their best season in quite a while...

Come on silverbear are you really using the last three seasons? Three seasons ago was Wittens best year and Cooleys ROOKIE year.

[skinsfunguy]

LOL... way to play fast and loose with the stats... how 'bout you compare the last THREE seasons?? I mean, I completely understand why you left out the 04 stats, Cooley had 37 catches for 314 yards, Witten had 50 more catches and over three times as many yards (87 for 980)... both played in all 16 games that year, so why did you leave those numbers out??

As for the 6 more TDs, that's easy to explain-- the Cowboys have more weapons to go to down in the red zone than the Skins do... first, they had Keyshawn Johnson and his fade routes, then they had TO and his size...

Barber had 16 TDs last season, all of them in the red zone; TO had 13 TDs, many of them in the red zone... meanwhile, Cooley's 6 TDs led the Skins...

I left it out because it was his rookie year. Wittens rookie year was very comparable to Cooleys, just like their entire careers so far.

Cooleys Rookie Year: 37 receptions, 314 yards, 6 touchdowns

Wittens Rookie Year: 35 receptions, 347 yards, 1 touchdown.

In fact the only REAL difference I see between the two is Cooleys edge in blocking and touchdowns hence why i gave him the SLIGHT advantage.

Chris Cooley in THREE years...19 touchdowns

Jason Witten in FOUR years...14 touchdowns

[skinsfunguy]

Even Tony Curtis, a scrub if there ever was one, has had a big preseason at TE for the Boys, catching 5 passes for 74 yards thus far...

In their first two preseason games, the Boys have completed 11 passes to their TEs, for 133 yards... that would project to 88 catches, for 1060 yards plus, for a 16 game season... that's with Jason Witten on the bench, most of that time (he had 1 of those 11 receptions)...

Yup, Jason Garrett is making the TE a centerpiece of his offensive philosophy... this should lead to Jason putting up some pretty good numbers (barring injury, of course)...

For contrast, the Skins have also completed 11 passes to their TEs this preseason, for 157 yards... that's with Cooley catching 5 of those passes...

Like I said, to me the real advantage for the Boys at TE lies in their superior quality among the backups... the Boys would not be screwed as badly by losing Witten as the Skins would be by losing Cooley, Fasano could step into the lead role at TE and give the team 50-60 catches...

I'll give you that, if Cooley goes down we are in a world of trouble as there is noone on our roster that has even half the talent Cooley does.

[silverbear]

Come on silverbear are you really using the last three seasons? Three seasons ago was Wittens best year and Cooleys ROOKIE year.

So, in order to make your comparison, you want to conveniently leave out Witten's best year??

That alone proves you have to "cook the books" to make your case that Cooley is as good a receiver as Witten is...

Both players played all 16 games in 2004, why wouldn't you count that year??

[skinsfunguy]

So, in order to make your comparison, you want to conveniently leave out Witten's best year??

That alone proves you have to "cook the books" to make your case that Cooley is as good a receiver as Witten is...

Both players played all 16 games in 2004, why wouldn't you count that year??


How is that cooking the books? Ive showed you how comparable their rookie years are. Cooley was a rookie third round pick coming to a new team with a new coach.

Cooley started 9 games to Wittens 15(Witten started 7 in his rookie year)

You can't fault Cooley for being in the league one less year then Witten. Like I said, at this point their careers are very similar and the only reason I give Cooley a slight edge is because of blocking and td's.

[silverbear]

Chris Cooley in THREE years...19 touchdowns

Jason Witten in FOUR years...14 touchdowns

That argument has already been rebutted, do find another that might actually work for you... Cooley doesn't have near the other players getting the ball down in the red zone that Witten has, so of course he's gonna have more opportunities to score...

Barber had 16 TDs, Owens had 13 TDs... for the Skins, only Clinton Portis had more TDs than Cooley's 6, he had 7... this obviously cuts way into Jason's scoring opportunities, when compared to Chris' opportunities...

[silverbear]

I'll give you that, if Cooley goes down we are in a world of trouble as there is noone on our roster that has even half the talent Cooley does.

And for my part, I'll give you credit for being one of the more semi-realistic Skins fans I've argued with... you have your blind spots, but you're not ES delusional... :D

[skinsfunguy]

And for my part, I'll give you credit for being one of the more semi-realistic Skins fans I've argued with... you have your blind spots, but you're not ES delusional... :D

Thank you Silverbear that means alot coming from you;) Dont think for one second though that I dont thin YOU also have your blind spots, but hey we are fans of each others bitter rivals so thats to be expected right?

As far as cooking the books I still feel as though I was not wrong in leaving out Cooleys rookie year. Yes, that was Wittens best year but I saw no other way to make a solid comparison with the samples given. If you can come up with a better way then im all ears.