Redskins RG Thomas to have surgery on torn left triceps

[dallasfaniac]

Didn't see this, delete or move as necessary.


The Washington Redskins have two victories in two games but lost two starting offensive linemen to injuries. They will be without standout right guard Randy Thomas for an indefinite period and possibly the rest of the season.

Thomas tore his left triceps during the first quarter of Monday night's victory over the Philadelphia Eagles, and will undergo Wednesday surgery to repair it. The ninth-year veteran left Lincoln Financial Field on Monday night with his arm in sling fearing the worst, and an MRI exam on Tuesday confirmed the damage.

How long the injury will sideline Thomas won't be resolved until during the operation, when surgeons get a closer look at the extent of the tear. If the tear is a significant one, Thomas could be out the rest of the year and could wind up on injured reserve.

No one, however, was prepared to make that determination yet.

The injury to Thomas, one of the NFL's best interior blockers, comes just a week after starting right tackle Jon Jansen suffered a broken right fibula and dislocated right ankle in the Redskins' season-opening game. Jansen underwent surgery last Thursday, was placed on injured reserve, and faces a long rehabilitation.

With the two injuries, Washington has seen the entire right side of its offensive line wiped out. Combined with the offseason defection of left guard Derrick Dockery to the Buffalo Bills as an unrestricted free agent, one of the NFL's top blocking units has been forced to dramatically reshuffle.

Todd Wade has moved into the lineup at right tackle. Veteran Jason Fabini, who has played tackle most of his career, filled in for Thomas over the final three quarters of the Monday night game.

Redskins officials, however, plan to visit with two or three veteran free agent interior linemen, and it will not be surprising if the club signs one of them. One candidate could be Keydrick Vincent, a former starter at right guard in Pittsburgh and Baltimore, but who was released by the Ravens in the roster cutdown to 53 players.

Thomas, 31, is in his fifth season with the Redskins, having signed as an unrestricted free agent in 2003 after spending his first four NFL seasons (1999-2002) with the New York Jets. He was chosen by the Jets in the second round of the 1999 draft, became a starter as a rookie, and quickly developed into a top-level in-line blocker.

The former Mississippi State star has appeared in 125 games, all but one as a starter.

Senior writer Len Pasquarelli covers the NFL for ESPN.com.

[LeonDixson]

If we had released Proctor or Berger to make way for Tank, the Skids would probably have snapped them up immediately.

[speedkilz88]

If they sign Vincent, the guy won't even have to move.

[AbeBeta]

Tough loss -- Thomas is one of the best OGs in the NFC.

[TunaFan33]

Remember Harris Barton(Steve Young's blind-sided OT)? In their last Super Bowl year(the same year they finally beat us in '94), he tore his triceps in wk 1, but came back by midseason.

Wouldn't Thomas be OK by midseason? Just curious

[Danny White]

Remember Harris Barton(Steve Young's blind-sided OT)? In their last Super Bowl year(the same year they finally beat us in '94), he tore his triceps in wk 1, but came back by midseason.

Wouldn't Thomas be OK by midseason? Just curious

Well, according to the article, it depends on how bad the tear is.

[Vertigo_17]

If we had released Proctor or Berger to make way for Tank, the Skids would probably have snapped them up immediately.

exactly what I was thinking. :hammer:

[Hostile]

Their O-line can't afford any more hits. I'm almost giddy they have Fabini.

[Mansta54]

Their O-line can't afford any more hits. I'm almost giddy they have Fabini.
:laugh2:

[newlander]

that he's out "10-12 weeks". That sounds like conjecture and wishful thinking to me from the foreskins. That's a wicked injury, especially for a lineman. Even if he comes back toward the end of the season......he won't be a factor IMHO. Kendall, Wade and Fabini as starters? Good lord. I was shocked Philly couldn't expose them last night. Give Saunders credit. He moved Campbell around in the pocket and the kid hit some passes on the move. He'll have to continue to do it with those three starting.:o:

[Hostile]

:laugh2:My gift to your brother. I know that will touch him deeply since he appreciates me so much.

[Mansta54]

My gift to your brother. I know that will touch him deeply since he appreciates me so much.

Oh his chest is stuck out after last nite. Can't stomach him right now.

[Hostile]

Oh his chest is stuck out after last nite. Can't stomach him right now.You know what, it should be. Beating the Eagles in their crib is worth some strut. Just not here.

[Mansta54]

You know what, it should be. Beating the Eagles in their crib is worth some strut. Just not here.

I'm with ya!!! Actually, I thought they both looked terrible last nite. I wasn't impressed at all....

[Hostile]

I'm with ya!!! Actually, I thought they both looked terrible last nite. I wasn't impressed at all....Nor was I, but a win is worth something.

[dmq]

Honestly, Fabini might be a good replacement. I know people want to bash the skins, but they looked ok after the injury last night. They have a mobile QB. That will help. I wouldn't throw dirt on them yet.

[Hostile]

Honestly, Fabini might be a good replacement. I know people want to bash the skins, but they looked ok after the injury last night. They have a mobile QB. That will help. I wouldn't throw dirt on them yet.I'd throw dirt on them if it was their wedding day.

[redskins1]

You know what, it should be. Beating the Eagles in their crib is worth some strut. Just not here.

man it was a tight squeeze getting on this board today,my chest is real pumped up right now..hostile can you and mansta54 move over so i can squeeze in here..:D

[Big Dakota]

Didn't see this, delete or move as necessary.


The Washington Redskins have two victories in two games but lost two starting offensive linemen to injuries. TORRIN TUCKER They will be without standout right guard Randy Thomas for an indefinite period and possibly the rest of the season.

Thomas tore his left triceps during the first quarter of Monday night's victory over the Philadelphia Eagles, and will undergo Wednesday surgery to repair it. The ninth-year veteran left Lincoln Financial Field on Monday night with his arm in sling fearing the worst, and an MRI exam on Tuesday confirmed the damage TORRIN TUCKER.

How long the injury will sideline Thomas won't be resolved until during the operation, when surgeons get a closer look at the extent of the tear. If the tear is a significant one, Thomas could be out the rest of the year TORRIN TUCKER and could wind up on injured reserve.

No one, however, TORRIN TUCKERwas prepared to make that determination yet.

The injury to Thomas, one of the NFL's best interior blockers TORRIN TUCKER, comes just a week after starting right tackle Jon Jansen suffered a broken right fibula and dislocated right ankle in the Redskins' season-opening game. Jansen underwent surgery last Thursday, was placed on injured reserve, and faces a long rehabilitation.

TORRIN TUCkERWith the two injuries, Washington has seen the entire right side of its offensive line wiped out. Combined with the offseason defection of left guard Derrick Dockery to the Buffalo Bills as an unrestricted free agent, one of the NFL's top blocking units has been forced to dramatically reshuffle.

Todd Wade has moved into the lineup at right tackle. Veteran Jason Fabini, who has played tackle most of his career, filled in for Thomas over the final three quarters of the Monday night game TORRIN TUCKER.

Redskins officials,TORRIN TUCKER however, plan to visit with two or three veteran free agent interior linemen, and it will not be surprising if the club signs one of them. One candidate could be Keydrick Vincent, a former starter at right guard in Pittsburgh and Baltimore, but who was released by the Ravens in the roster cutdown to 53 players.

Thomas, 31, is in his fifth season with the Redskins, having signed as an unrestricted free agent in 2003 after spending his first four NFL seasons (1999-2002) with the New York Jets. He was chosen by TORRIN TUCKER the Jets in the second round of the 1999 draft, became a starter as a rookie, and quickly developed into a top-level in-line blocker.

The former Mississippi State star TORRIN TUCKER has appeared in 125 games, all but one as a starter.

Senior writer TORRIN TUCKER Len Pasquarelli covers the NFL for ESPN.com.





http://snltranscripts.jt.org/88/pics/88msubliminal1.jpg

[Mansta54]

man it was a tight squeeze getting on this board today,my chest is real pumped up right now..hostile can you and mansta54 move over so i can squeeze in here..:D

Its not your chest, its that BIG WATERHEAD on your shoulders that won't fit...:laugh2:

[Hostile]

Its not your chest, its that BIG WATERHEAD on your shoulders that won't fit...:laugh2::laugh2:

[1fisher]

:laugh2:

:laugh2: X 2

[silverbear]

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/88/pics/88msubliminal1.jpg

Bleep the Torrin TuckerRedskins...

Torrin Tucker

[Big Dakota]

Bleep the Torrin TuckerRedskins...

Torrin Tucker



:laugh2:

[SkinsandTerps]

Tough injury for an OL player.

But as many think there is no OL depth for the Redskins...yeah there is.

Fabini and Wade certainly arent Jansen and Thomas...but they are serviceable. Team needs to play to its strengths, and these guys will not struggle as much as they have in the past.

Kendall being questioned ? Come on he is a solid player, who had a great game last night.

[NoDak Cowboy]

Tough injury for an OL player.

But as many think there is no OL depth for the Redskins...yeah there is.

Fabini and Wade certainly arent Jansen and Thomas...but they are serviceable. Team needs to play to its strengths, and these guys will not struggle as much as they have in the past.

Kendall being questioned ? Come on he is a solid player, who had a great game last night.

I thought when Fabini played for us, you guys said he was crap?

So which is it?

[Smith22]

Tough injuries for the skins. Fabini and Wade really need to step up, but the skins schedule may give them some time to improve. They don't hit the meat of their schedule until later in the year. If their OL can hold up, they have the weapons on offense to hurt some teams, assuming Campbell makes it as a QB. On defense, they look solid other than some big question marks along the DL and Rogers in the secondary. Rogers looked better against the Eagles, but I think that had more to do with the Eagles WR's being pathetic than him improving that quickly. Time will tell.

[SkinsandTerps]

I thought when Fabini played for us, you guys said he was crap?

So which is it?

I am sure some did. But at that time I was questioning Adams and Allen, more than Fabini.

Again, I don't feel he is a great player at all at this point, but serviceable. I feel that if the play calling is set up to protect him, he will be fine. Although I saw several plays run behind the right side last night that were successful.

[TunaFan33]

Wow-the injury bug has really hit alot of teams this year. At least the Boys and Skins are surviving with W's.

[silverbear]

Tough injury for an OL player.

But as many think there is no OL depth for the Redskins...yeah there is.

Fabini and Wade certainly arent Jansen and Thomas...but they are serviceable.

Uhhh, no, they're not... particularly not Fabini...

Team needs to play to its strengths, and these guys will not struggle as much as they have in the past.

Why, because they're playing for the Redskins??

Kendall being questioned ? Come on he is a solid player, who had a great game last night.

He's a journeyman, nothing more... and he's right small for an offensive lineman in today's NFL...

Bottom line, the Skins now have one player who MIGHT be Pro Bowl caliber on that vaunted offensive line... nobody else comes close to that level...

[silverbear]

I am sure some did. But at that time I was questioning Adams and Allen, more than Fabini.

Again, I don't feel he is a great player at all at this point, but serviceable. I feel that if the play calling is set up to protect him, he will be fine. Although I saw several plays run behind the right side last night that were successful.

Call that the surprise factor... you can bet that the Iggles didn't spend a whole lot of time preparing to face Jason Fabini...

The Cowboys cut Fabini because he didn't have much left in his gas tank...

[TunaFan33]

Well-sans Thomas and Jansen, the Eagles nonetheless couldn't get any pass rush. Either Jansen and Wade are GOOD, or the Eagles really need to clean house this offseason.

[silverbear]

Well-sans Thomas and Jansen, the Eagles nonetheless couldn't get any pass rush.

Campbell was sacked once, had two hurries, scrambled six times... he dropped back to throw a total of 36 times...

Sounds like the Iggles got fair to middling pressure to me...

Either Jansen and Wade are GOOD, or the Eagles really need to clean house this offseason.

Well, Wade and Fabini (not Jansen) are clearly not GOOD, so you figure it out...

[AmishCowboy]

Kendell is OK, but Fabini, well let's just say that we seen enough of his act here!.

[dmq]

My best advice for the skins is to trade for Rob Petitti. If nothing else, they will get Pittdawg on Extremeskins. He can straighten out all the ignorant talk on that board.

[Danny White]

My best advice for the skins is to trade for Rob Petitti. If nothing else, they will get Pittdawg on Extremeskins. He can straighten out all the ignorant talk on that board.

I don't think he's on a team right now. The Saints cut him.

[NoDak Cowboy]

I am sure some did. But at that time I was questioning Adams and Allen, more than Fabini.

Again, I don't feel he is a great player at all at this point, but serviceable. I feel that if the play calling is set up to protect him, he will be fine. Although I saw several plays run behind the right side last night that were successful.

You critique the 49ers, too? Allen was not on our roster last year when Fabini was here. So either you are just saying something just to say it, or you know nothing of what you speak.

I'd say a little of both, with a nice mixture of homerism thrown in, thinking a player is better than they are because of the colors they now wear.

[skinsfunguy]

that he's out "10-12 weeks". That sounds like conjecture and wishful thinking to me from the foreskins. That's a wicked injury, especially for a lineman. Even if he comes back toward the end of the season......he won't be a factor IMHO. Kendall, Wade and Fabini as starters? Good lord. I was shocked Philly couldn't expose them last night. Give Saunders credit. He moved Campbell around in the pocket and the kid hit some passes on the move. He'll have to continue to do it with those three starting.:o:


Have you watched the skins so far this season? Kendall has been SICK, and Wade may actually be an upgrade over Jansen at this point. Im very worried about Fabini, although he actually did pretty decent for us in pass blocking.

[firehawk350]

Uhhh, no, they're not... particularly not Fabini...

Missing the entire right side of the line, still 4th in the league rushing (ahead of Dallas I might add). Only allowed 3 sacks. Not too shabby.



Why, because they're playing for the Redskins??

I don't understand what he was getting out so I don't know how to respond to your response. paint me confused...



He's a journeyman, nothing more... and he's right small for an offensive lineman in today's NFL...

Bottom line, the Skins now have one player who MIGHT be Pro Bowl caliber on that vaunted offensive line... nobody else comes close to that level...

Hmmmm, I might be mistaken but I'm pretty sure Kendall went to the pro bowl. So that would make two. Also, anyone that watches the games would see that Rabach is playing at a very high level. Too bad pro bowls (especially for linemen) are all about name recognition.

[firehawk350]

Have you watched the skins so far this season? Kendall has been SICK, and Wade may actually be an upgrade over Jansen at this point. Im very worried about Fabini, although he actually did pretty decent for us in pass blocking.
I think Wade has been an upgrade in the passing game, but not in the running game. He handled Javon Kearse though, but then again, I think Kearse has lost a step, or three.

[silverbear]

Missing the entire right side of the line, still 4th in the league rushing (ahead of Dallas I might add). Only allowed 3 sacks. Not too shabby.

That 4th in the league rushing stat is helped JUST a little by playing an overtime period, in which y'all ran the ball 7 times for 46 yards... take that extra playing time out of the equation, and the Skins have run the ball 67 times for 275 yards, 9th best in the league... their 4.1 yards per carry average would rank them 15th in the NFL...

The Boys already have the higher yards per carry average, 4.7 to 4.3, and have scored more rushing TDs, 4 to 2... this despite running the ball 8 fewer times in the 2 games...

As for the 3 sacks in 2 games, part of that is because the Skins have thrown the ball the 5th fewest times in the league (50)... part of it is because Campbell has been real good escaping the pressure-- he ranks second (behind Vince Young) in number of carries by a QB, with 10... so the Skins have called 60 pass plays in the first two games, Campbell has been sacked 3 times, forced to run 10 times...

Doesn't sound like the pass blocking has been that good to me... if Campbell keeps on running five times a game, he'll never make it through all 16 games...

And since you seemed to want to compare our two teams, the Boys have given up fewer sacks, in more attempts (2 sacks, 53 attempts), and Romo has only had to run the ball 7 times (which is still too often)...

See what happens when you look at the stats HONESTLY?? The truth is, y'all have faced two struggling defenses thus far, and that more than anything explains the offensive success the Skins have had...

If you can call averaging 18 points a game "offensive success"... LOL...

Hmmmm, I might be mistaken but I'm pretty sure Kendall went to the pro bowl. So that would make two.

Yup, you're mistaken... he came into the league in 1996, and a quick check of each year's Pro Bowl rosters over on pro-football-reference.com shows no Pete Kendall on any of those rosters...

So that would bring us back to one...

[silverbear]

Missing the entire right side of the line, still 4th in the league rushing (ahead of Dallas I might add). Only allowed 3 sacks. Not too shabby.

Once again, the Skins' offensive stats are skewed by having played an overtime already... but let's take a look at those stats with the overtime, and without it in the equation:

Total Offense-- 11th with the overtime stats, 14th without...

Yards Per Play-- 10th with the overtime, 13th without...

Scoring-- 20th with the overtime, 21st without...

First Downs Per Game-- tied 11th with the overtime, 22nd without...

So, even with the overtime, the Skins are about the 12th to 15th best offense out there right now... but if you take the overtime out of the equation, and give them the same number of minutes played as the other teams, you're looking at a middle of the pack offense, 15th or 16th best...

Guess that offensive line play hasn't been that impressive after all...

[firehawk350]

That 4th in the league rushing stat is helped JUST a little by playing an overtime period, in which y'all ran the ball 7 times for 46 yards... take that extra playing time out of the equation, and the Skins have run the ball 67 times for 275 yards, 9th best in the league... their 4.1 yards per carry average would rank them 15th in the NFL...

Could it be because teams have loaded the LOS to stop the run??? No way... I guess LT is done too...

The Boys already have the higher yards per carry average, 4.7 to 4.3, and have scored more rushing TDs, 4 to 2... this despite running the ball 8 fewer times in the 2 games...

YPC, let's see. Who has the highest YPC in the league... Cedrick Wilson. A WR... As a matter of fact, the top 3 spots are held by WRs. The first RB is Marcel Shipp who plays for AZ. The first person with 10 or more carries??? Jason Campbell. The first RB with 10 or more carries??? Chris Brown with Tennessee. Then jamal lewis, Najed davenport and Derrick Ward. What can we discern from all this??? LT sucks (2.9 YPC which puts him at 133rd in the league) and the Skins are starting the wrong person at RB. Okay okay, you must mean by team, let's look at the teams.

Cleveland Browns are the league's best rushing attack (in YPC). Funny how I don't hear anything about how great their line is, surely they must have an all-world RB. Jamal Lewis. Good, but I doubt he's in the discussions of a top 15 RB. Let's move onto the number 2 team, the Giants. Again, I don't hear anything about how great THEIR OL is either. And their RB??? Derrick Ward. How about the great Chargers, who purportedly has the best rushing attack in the league and a great OL??? 32nd in the league, LAST. Your rushing attack being measured by YPC holds no water. Unless you think the Browns are the best rushing team (which in turn means the best OL in the run game) and the Chargers the worst.

As for the 3 sacks in 2 games, part of that is because the Skins have thrown the ball the 5th fewest times in the league (50)... part of it is because Campbell has been real good escaping the pressure-- he ranks second (behind Vince Young) in number of carries by a QB, with 10... so the Skins have called 60 pass plays in the first two games, Campbell has been sacked 3 times, forced to run 10 times...

The 5th fewest times in the league... So, if a team throws quick 3 step drops 10 times and gets sacked once and the QB runs once more, is that better or worse than a team that drops back 10 times, throws 10+ yards each time and is sacked twice and the QB runs once. My point being is the Skins haven't run any screens and very few slants. Most of the passes are downfield, meaning Campbell takes more steps in his drop than most QBs do, therefore allowing more pressure and making him scramble more. Anyways, looking that sacks thing, we're 10th in the league in least sacks given up (3) so that corresponds roughly with the 5th least passes.

Doesn't sound like the pass blocking has been that good to me... if Campbell keeps on running five times a game, he'll never make it through all 16 games...

Yeah, I doubt his tiny 235 lb frame can take the punishment. In that case, I sure hope poor Ladell Betts doesn't have to run more than 5 times a game, his little 225 lb frame can't take it...

And since you seemed to want to compare our two teams, the Boys have given up fewer sacks, in more attempts (2 sacks, 53 attempts), and Romo has only had to run the ball 7 times (which is still too often)...

Comparisons are kinda bunk right now as the Skins are missing their right side of the line and you faced the mighty mighty Giants defense, who gave up 35 points to the same Packers that the struggling eagles defense held to 16. I dare say you faced one of the weakest defenses in the league, if not the very weakest.

See what happens when you look at the stats HONESTLY?? The truth is, y'all have faced two struggling defenses thus far, and that more than anything explains the offensive success the Skins have had...

If you can call averaging 18 points a game "offensive success"... LOL...

I'll admit that the offense isn't clicking on all cylinders, but despite that, we've posted some good/great games rushing and still managed some decent numbers total yardage-wise. We need to punch it in and have some things that need to be fixed, but it's coming on slowly.

Struggling defenses??? Until the Eagles defense faced us, they were #1 in the league stopping the run. Despite giving up 300+ yards to the Skins, they still sit at #6 overall. True, Miami is struggling, but you faced them (25th in the league) and the Giants (29th in the league).



Yup, you're mistaken... he came into the league in 1996, and a quick check of each year's Pro Bowl rosters over on pro-football-reference.com shows no Pete Kendall on any of those rosters...

So that would bring us back to one...

I think that would still give us Samuels and Rabach, but whatever. You put FAR too much stock into pro bowls, especially for linemen. It's all about name recognition.

[firehawk350]

Once again, the Skins' offensive stats are skewed by having played an overtime already... but let's take a look at those stats with the overtime, and without it in the equation:

Total Offense-- 11th with the overtime stats, 14th without...

Yards Per Play-- 10th with the overtime, 13th without...

Scoring-- 20th with the overtime, 21st without...

First Downs Per Game-- tied 11th with the overtime, 22nd without...

So, even with the overtime, the Skins are about the 12th to 15th best offense out there right now... but if you take the overtime out of the equation, and give them the same number of minutes played as the other teams, you're looking at a middle of the pack offense, 15th or 16th best...

Guess that offensive line play hasn't been that impressive after all...
Did you take out overtime for the Lions, Vikings, Broncos and the Raiders? Anyways, it doesn't matter as each game ends at a different time. Does a team suck at running if it just runs up the gut for the last 5 minutes to run out the clock??? Or if a team takes a knee to end the game (like Campbell did for the last 70 seconds)? Can we go ahead and chop off all the stats for every team at that point because the other team wasn't playing for those last two minutes???

[burmafrd]

The Skins O line is weaker now then it was. Fact. Their depth is now GONE. Fact. Fabini is not as good as the man he replaced. Fact.
Just a matter of time before they show it.

[dallasfaniac]

I dare say you faced one of the weakest defenses in the league, if not the very weakest.

You realize you just painted yourself into a corner considering your team faces them this weekend, right?

[firehawk350]

Like I said, we are not hitting on all cylinders yet and I doubt we will be by the Giants game either. But I think we'll do better against the giants than we have so far.

[firehawk350]

The Skins O line is weaker now then it was. Fact. Their depth is now GONE. Fact. Fabini is not as good as the man he replaced. Fact.
Just a matter of time before they show it.
Actually, we still have Stephon Heyer who did pretty well so far. He replaced Jansen in the Miami game and did a rather good job. Other than that, we only have one more back-up (Pucillo) as a virtue of only carrying 9 guys on the roster, which is what the boys did too. If you lost Bigg and colombo, who would you put out there?

[5Stars]

Actually, we still have Stephon Heyer who did pretty well so far. He replaced Jansen in the Miami game and did a rather good job. Other than that, we only have one more back-up (Pucillo) as a virtue of only carrying 9 guys on the roster, which is what the boys did too. If you lost Bigg and colombo, who would you put out there?


Who? Oh, we got oline depth...young oline depth! No worries there...


;)

[AmishCowboy]

Actually, we still have Stephon Heyer who did pretty well so far. He replaced Jansen in the Miami game and did a rather good job. Other than that, we only have one more back-up (Pucillo) as a virtue of only carrying 9 guys on the roster, which is what the boys did too. If you lost Bigg and colombo, who would you put out there?Most likely Proctor and McQuisten.

[firehawk350]

Most likely Proctor and McQuisten.
You would like to say they'd swim, but you just don't know until you throw them in the pool...

[firehawk350]

Also, to those inquiring minds, Thomas is supposed to spend 10-12 weeks out with the injury.

[dallasfaniac]

Also, to those inquiring minds, Thomas is supposed to spend 10-12 weeks out with the injury.

Yeah, post #10 said the same thing.

[NoDak Cowboy]

Also, to those inquiring minds, Thomas is supposed to spend 10-12 weeks out with the injury.

Does it look like the skins are gonna carry him on the roster for that long, or IR him?

That's a long time to eat up a roster spot for a guy that might be able to play well when he returns for the last 2-4 games.

[burmafrd]

Firehawk- what little depth you had is now gone. Right? Trying to dodge that by talking about us is a troll tactic. Pathetic. Your O line is weaker now then when the season started. Are you trying to say it is not?