Do we already have enough speed at WR?

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by parcellswaterboy

..with what BP is doing with the offense..?

by that I mean, BP wants a ball control offense that is going to be low-risk and physical. He wants an OL that will control the LOS and allow the RB's to dominate and the short-to-medium passing to move the sticks and push it in from the Red`Zone consistantly.

He wants what he wanted when he came here. To play smash-mouth offense and defense.

All the changes he's made underscore that. Speed is great, but it's a luxury at this point and not a necessity.

Holding the ball, wearing down the defense in the first 3 Qts. and then controlling the 4th Qt. is what BP is looking for. This also protects the defense by keeping them on the sideline and not exposing them and giving them more time to develop, especially in the new 3-4.

[View Full Quote]That way, all the offense has to do is to win games in not turn it over and hopefully protect leads of 14-7 or 17-10 or 21-17. Our games are going to always be close this year, like last year.

If the offense is needed to win games from behind, if it's close, they will try to stay with the game plan. If they are way behind, Bledsoe gets to wing it. He'll have the weapons.

If we did have a WR who would dominate with his speed..that would be fine, but scoring quickly and leaving more time on the clock is not always a blessing. It sometimes just turns the game into a track meet and our defense is going to be vunerable in a situation like that where defensive gameplans get thrown out the window and we have to adjust on the fly.

I haven't seen this team really adjust to changing games very well. We don't ever show in the second half that we can come out and make changes that reverse the direction of games.

We sort of just come out and try to do the same things we were doing in the first half and it usually flat-lines.

So I'm guessing that BP feels there is enough speed on the team to reflect what they really want to do on offense. In the first 3-4 games last year, before the WR injuries, it was apparent to me we had plenty of speed across the field in the 3 WR sets.

Glenn was having career year and the others, even Antonio Bryant, was playing and it was looking very good.

Nobody was screaming about lack of anything except a running attack.

So now the running attack is supposedly fixed and the OL fixed and the QB fixed.

Speed at WR is overrated. I believe getting the WR's we have the ball quickly and consistantly is going to be the key to passing. I don't think we intend to really go deep that much. It's going to expose Bledsoe and the OL to blitzes more and breakdowns and possible injury to the QB.

We will use play-action passing based off a solid running game to get the ball deep. If the guy is open deep and Bledsoe is not under heavy pressure, things will be fine. If the running game is working, we will be passing on early downs alot.

That means single coverage on the WR's and BP probably feels Glenn and Key and Witten will beat most DB's in those scenarios in the 10-15 yds range and they will break a few tackles for big gains in one-on-one.

It will be physical offensive football with a minimum risk to turning over the ball. It will be field position, special teams and defense.

Not bombs away with burners on the outside where the defense can roll double coverage to that speed guy and shut down the offense.

If things go well, if the ball control offense works in the first half of the year, I would expect the defenses to change their schemes to force us to go over the top more as the year goes on.

Then, we'll see what the guys like Cooper and others can add to the mix with speed as we deploy them in the 3 WR sets. But until and unless that happens..speed is not going to be a feature of the 2005 offense.

Consistancy, lack of turnover, clock control, minimal penalties, and Red Zone scoring is going to be the recipe. Veterans are the ones that grasp that. That's why we have so many now on offense at key positions.

We'll see.

parcellswaterboy

This is not true. There were several people on this board who have had the opinion that our WRs don't have a true deep threat. This is going back to last year.

We may want to run the ball and play a short passing game but if you can't stretch the field, it's only a matter of time before these things are taken away. It doesn't matter how many vets you have, that's the reality of the situation. Look back to the late 90s. We still had a great OL. We still had an All Pro QB. We still had a RB who could put up 1200 to 1300 yards a season. We still had decent possesion receivers. We couldn't stretch the field and that hurt us.

[Aikmaniac]

I'll take some big receivers who can move the chains consistently over the burners that "stretch the field" without any catches. It's called ball control and it's BP's bread and butter.

[LaTunaNostra]

Originally Posted by parcellswaterboy

..with what BP is doing with the offense..?

by that I mean, BP wants a ball control offense that is going to be low-risk and physical. He wants an OL that will control the LOS and allow the RB's to dominate and the short-to-medium passing to move the sticks and push it in from the Red`Zone consistantly.

He wants what he wanted when he came here. To play smash-mouth offense and defense.

All the changes he's made underscore that. Speed is great, but it's a luxury at this point and not a necessity.

Holding the ball, wearing down the defense in the first 3 Qts. and then controlling the 4th Qt. is what BP is looking for. This also protects the defense by keeping them on the sideline and not exposing them and giving them more time to develop, especially in the new 3-4.

[View Full Quote]That way, all the offense has to do is to win games in not turn it over and hopefully protect leads of 14-7 or 17-10 or 21-17. Our games are going to always be close this year, like last year.

If the offense is needed to win games from behind, if it's close, they will try to stay with the game plan. If they are way behind, Bledsoe gets to wing it. He'll have the weapons.

If we did have a WR who would dominate with his speed..that would be fine, but scoring quickly and leaving more time on the clock is not always a blessing. It sometimes just turns the game into a track meet and our defense is going to be vunerable in a situation like that where defensive gameplans get thrown out the window and we have to adjust on the fly.

I haven't seen this team really adjust to changing games very well. We don't ever show in the second half that we can come out and make changes that reverse the direction of games.

We sort of just come out and try to do the same things we were doing in the first half and it usually flat-lines.

So I'm guessing that BP feels there is enough speed on the team to reflect what they really want to do on offense. In the first 3-4 games last year, before the WR injuries, it was apparent to me we had plenty of speed across the field in the 3 WR sets.

Glenn was having career year and the others, even Antonio Bryant, was playing and it was looking very good.

Nobody was screaming about lack of anything except a running attack.

So now the running attack is supposedly fixed and the OL fixed and the QB fixed.

Speed at WR is overrated. I believe getting the WR's we have the ball quickly and consistantly is going to be the key to passing. I don't think we intend to really go deep that much. It's going to expose Bledsoe and the OL to blitzes more and breakdowns and possible injury to the QB.

We will use play-action passing based off a solid running game to get the ball deep. If the guy is open deep and Bledsoe is not under heavy pressure, things will be fine. If the running game is working, we will be passing on early downs alot.

That means single coverage on the WR's and BP probably feels Glenn and Key and Witten will beat most DB's in those scenarios in the 10-15 yds range and they will break a few tackles for big gains in one-on-one.

It will be physical offensive football with a minimum risk to turning over the ball. It will be field position, special teams and defense.

Not bombs away with burners on the outside where the defense can roll double coverage to that speed guy and shut down the offense.

If things go well, if the ball control offense works in the first half of the year, I would expect the defenses to change their schemes to force us to go over the top more as the year goes on.

Then, we'll see what the guys like Cooper and others can add to the mix with speed as we deploy them in the 3 WR sets. But until and unless that happens..speed is not going to be a feature of the 2005 offense.

Consistancy, lack of turnover, clock control, minimal penalties, and Red Zone scoring is going to be the recipe. Veterans are the ones that grasp that. That's why we have so many now on offense at key positions.

We'll see.

parcellswaterboy

Nice post. PWB, but I disagree that speed is ever a luxury. In today's game. considering the speed of defensive players, it is, imo, always a necessity. Any team without enough of a speed threat to keep the defenses honest will find the underneath game taken away..

but it only has to be a threat..it doesn't have to be used all that much..and when it is, it pays off....Tuna's most prolific offensive year was 96 when he used Glenn and Jefferson as that speed threat. In NY he had Dedric Ward as his speed threat..Ward could stretch the field back then. But he didn't have enough speed in NY to take the O over the hump.

I do agree that speed is over-rated in the sense that it alone won't win you ball games. But since we lack the kind of offensive minded abilities on our coaching staff to run the kind of formations, say, the Rams do..(Warner in his prime was not going deep very often, but the personnel groupings and YAC made those teams seem like speed personified_....I think we are more reliant on game breaking threat than many teams are.

I guess what I am saying is we could make do with the speed at hand much better if we had more creativity..sure, Tuna is gonna run the same old ball control play action game he always did, and if it suceeds it will because of overall execution, but our need for that "impact" over the last few years has been relegated to those pure gimmick plays like the Anderson TD to Glenn in Skins Game 1 last year.

To me it felt like we were relying on gimmick to compensate for the kinds of options a real speed threat gives you.

Maybe it's just me over-fretting. But I KNOW Terry is not as fast as he was in NE (just as quick tho), and I don't see Morgan as anyone to put the fear into the faster corners.

As you say, we shall see!

[dbair1967]

being able to get open consistently, beat press coverage, catch the ball >

speed



david

[dbair1967]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

. Look back to the late 90s. We still had a great OL. We still had an All Pro QB. We still had a RB who could put up 1200 to 1300 yards a season. We still had decent possesion receivers. We couldn't stretch the field and that hurt us.

and thats not true either...Ed Hervey and Stepfret Williams had all sorts of speed, but couldnt get open to save their life

David

[LaTunaNostra]

Originally Posted by dbair1967

being able to get open consistently, beat press coverage, catch the ball >

speed



david

Well, a good topic might be the qualities needed to get open consistently. Speed is certainly one of them...a vertical release as opposed to an attack, or releases relying more on receiver trickery. But even seam releases depend a great deal upon speed. And when it comes to separation, quickness and moves might be the the keys, but it's contolled speed that usually allows a receiver to come off the LOS.

I hope some folks who have palyed receiver on any level could comment on this..

later

[JDSmith]

Parcells late 80's teams all had guys who averaged 18 - 20 yards per catch. Usually two or three of them each year, although none of them had outstanding individual totals - usually for 200 - 500 yards per season each. But he threw the ball long, he didn't dink and dunk. As Simms said one day while announcing a Dallas game - Bill told him that if he was going to throw, throw the ball down the field. He said he didn't need Phil to throw it 3 yards, if he wanted 3 yards he'd simply run it. Bill's teams were consistently among the top 10 in yards per attempt in the late 80's.

Last year we were 17th in YPA, two years ago we were 19th. That's NOT how Bill wants to play, and it's not how he's played elsewhere. IMO we need a receiver or two to show that they can make plays down the field in order for this offense to work.

[ravidubey]

Originally Posted by LaTunaNostra

Receivers not fast enough to make a clear swift break spell disaster for Drew. You hold them up for a nanosecond and the read progression must be applied more vigorously.

Maybe, but Drew will have an outlet in Witten similar to what he last had in Ben Coates, and we all know how well that connection clicked. Frankly he hasn't had the TE or the clear #2 guy (except in 2002) for years.

Bledsoe had less of a progression of reads as two major ones-- deep and dump off-- in Buffalo, and he's never had a guy like Key.

Witten's and Key's presence will demand Bledsoe's attention in the intermediate portion of the field.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by dbair1967

and thats not true either...Ed Hervey and Stepfret Williams had all sorts of speed, but couldnt get open to save their life

David

It's absolutly true. You come up with these guys and tell me that speed doesn't count? First show me playing time on these guys, then explain to me how guys who run fast but aren't on the field equate to speed.

Nice try David, even for a Monday.

[RoysAHitta]

i think the real problem with our wr corps is keyshawn johnson. sadly enough hes to slow to present a real threat to any d. he'd be a good slot wr to me, hes big and can make the tough catches in the middle but he doesnt belong on the sides of the field... hes to slow to stretch anything.

[dbair1967]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

It's absolutly true. You come up with these guys and tell me that speed doesn't count? First show me playing time on these guys, then explain to me how guys who run fast but aren't on the field equate to speed.

Nice try David, even for a Monday.

hey speeds great, if you have WR skill to go with it

Randall Williams, Alex Wright and Ed Hervey are probably 3 of the fastest guys we've ever had here...all of them sucked rump as WR's because they cant get open...they werent even good enough to be complementary WR's

David

[InmanRoshi]

Being able to run the ball effectively will have more to do with how many big plays our WR's make than speed.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by dbair1967

hey speeds great, if you have WR skill to go with it

Randall Williams, Alex Wright and Ed Hervey are probably 3 of the fastest guys we've ever had here...all of them sucked rump as WR's because they cant get open...they werent even good enough to be complementary WR's

David

Well, that pretty much goes without saying. The premise of this discussion, as I understand it, is speed to stretch the defense. If a WR can't catch, he's not going to be on the field. If he isn't on the field, he's not going to stretch anything.

Having said that, if you have guys like Key and Glenn, I don't think you need a WR who is an exceptional route runner. If you have a guy who is fast and can catch, then you have to play your safeties honest. You can't afford to let him run by you. That means that you either shade your safety, which opens up the seam for your slot guy or your TE. You play zones, which can be exploited as we well know, or you play your CB off the WR in single coverage and give up 1st downs. Eventually, you gotta account for the speed. Key is gonna move the chains. Glenn has the speed and agility to create seperation. All your missing, IMO, is a guy who must make you respect the speed. That opens up all the opperating room for your other WRs, your TEs and your backs.

With a real speed threat, everything works. Without it, a good DC and defensive unit will take things away. Eventually, you'll end up playing a style of offense they can dictate to you and that's never a good thing in the NFL.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by InmanRoshi

Being able to run the ball effectively will have more to do with how many big plays our WR's make than speed.

I don't agree with this. If you can run the ball, then it helps. There is no question about that. However, if you don't have speed, then you can cover guys one on one with little fear of giving up 6. You can afford to cheat safeties in the box and create 8 man fronts. If you have a WR with speed and the ability to catch, you can't do that. You need to be able to run the ball but you also need to stretch the defense. I would not say that one is more important then the other. A good defensive team will eventually take your running game away if you can't make them respect the long ball.

[SALADIN]

Originally Posted by InmanRoshi

Being able to run the ball effectively will have more to do with how many big plays our WR's make than speed.

So true Inman, if JJ plays like he did at the end of last year big plays down field won't be as few and far between as they were last year.