Hall of Fame Announcement Thread***Allen IN-2013 class Post #9***

[KJJ]

Originally Posted by burmafrd

they beat us by 4 pts in each in games that went right up to the last minute.

But of course you didn't know that

It doesn't matter how much they won by the fact is they won and went on to win 2 more SB's after that. The 70's Steelers are the only team in NFL history to win back to back SB's twice. That was a more dominate team than the Cowboys had in the 90's. Our 90's players are being voted into the HOF and the championships those players were apart of have a lot to do with it.

Aikman would have never been voted into the HOF had it not been for his 3 SB rings. He didn't have HOF numbers it was the 3 championships that got him in. It's always a pleasure filling you in on the facts.

[KJJ]

Originally Posted by percyhoward

I'm all for the SB argument, but why doesn't it work for Chuck Howley?

Probably because Howley's prime years were spent on some pretty bad Cowboy teams in the early to mid 60's as well as teams that were coming up short to the Packers another team with a lot of Hall of Famers due to championships. Howley was only part of one championship (SB VI) and although he was named SB MVP in SB V that was an awfully played game in which the Cowboys lost.

You know a game is bad when a player on the losing end gets named MVP. He was a very good player but spent too many years on bad teams and teams that were coming up short. His omission from the HOF certainly isn't because of any bias against him or the Cowboys.

[percyhoward]

Originally Posted by KJJ

Probably because Howley's prime years were spent on some pretty bad Cowboy teams in the early to mid 60's as well as teams that were coming up short to the Packers another team with a lot of Hall of Famers due to championships. Howley was only part of one championship (SB VI) and although he was named SB MVP in SB V that was an awfully played game in which the Cowboys lost.

You know a game is bad when a player on the losing end gets named MVP. He was a very player but spent too many years on bad teams and teams that were coming up short. His omission from the HOF certainly isn't because of any bias against him or the Cowboys.

So, the guy who got two picks, recovered a fumble, and was named MVP, and who is the all-time leader in SB takeaways, and who was AP 1st Team All-Pro five times isn't getting HOF recognition because Super Bowl V was a bad game for the offenses?

You should be on the selection committee.

[KJJ]

Originally Posted by percyhoward

So, the guy who got two picks, recovered a fumble, and was named MVP, and who is the all-time leader in SB takeaways, and who was AP 1st Team All-Pro five times isn't getting HOF recognition because Super Bowl V was a bad game for the offenses?

Where did I say that??? Try reading my post instead of putting a ridiculous spin on it. Howley started his career in 1958 with the Bears and spent his prime years In Dallas on some real bad Cowboy teams. When the team became competitive they kept coming up short in championship games. There were a lot of great players during the 60's and early 70's especially at LB. There's many LB's who had great careers who have yet to be elected to the HOF.

Maxie Baughan was a 9 time pro bowler. Robert Brazile was a Defensive Rookie of the Year, seven-time Pro Bowler and All-Decade selection in the '70s. Kevin Greene who currently ranks third all-time in sacks has yet to get in. Andy Russell went to 7 pro bowls on some great Steelers championship teams and he isn't in the HOF. Randy Gradishar anchored the "Orange Crush" defense in the late '70s and he's not in the HOF. Dave Robinson who won three NFL championships with the Packers is a 2013 HOF inductee. It took all these years for him to get in.

There's been a wealth of talent at the LB position over the years and had Howley been apart of some great teams that weren't always coming up short he might have been voted in. I haven't been following your posts but it appears your theme like others is there's a bias against the Cowboys which is ridiculous or they wouldn't have as many players in the HOF as they do. Aikman certainly wouldn't have gotten in with his less than stellar numbers if their was a bias against the Cowboys and Irvin would be still waiting with his drug and infidelity issues that plagued him off the field.

[percyhoward]

Originally Posted by KJJ

Where did I say that??? Try reading my post instead of putting a ridiculous spin on it.

You can try reading it and see if you come away with a different impression:
"Although he was named SB MVP in SB V, that was an awfully played game in which the Cowboys lost."

It sure sounds like you're trying to say that Howley's MVP performance is somehow diminished or overlooked because he was on the losing team, and because the defenses outplayed the offenses. I don't get your logic. Those two facts are so unusual for Super Bowls that they should actually draw attention to Howley's performance.

Originally Posted by KJJ

If there were a bias against the Cowboys they wouldn't have as many players in the HOF as they do.

More bizarre logic, which I'll address (and compare Howley to the players you listed) when I have more time.

I'll let my sig speak for itself in the meantime.

[DFWJC]

There is a strong chance that Larry Allen is the best player at his position to ever wear the star.

It was pretty telling that some of his highlights show him totally devouring fellow HOFer Warren Sapp.

I've never heard anyone say he was not the best and most dominant.
11 Pro Bowls and regualar accounts of players getting the Larry Allen flu or having a muscle cramp the day they have to play against him. He just scared people he was so dominant.

Few or none of our other HOFers are ever considered the VERY best at their position in NFL history--especially outside of our own fanbase.

[perrykemp]

Originally Posted by DFWJC

Few or none of our other HOFers are ever considered the VERY best at their position in NFL history--especially outside of our own fanbase.

Emmitt Smith is the only other one that comes to mind... he clearly was the most productive over a career, although it's probably the norm to see Jim Brown and Walter Payton ranked higher than him in terms of all time RBs.

[Diogenes]

Originally Posted by perrykemp

Emmitt Smith is the only other one that comes to mind... he clearly was the most productive over a career, although it's probably the norm to see Jim Brown and Walter Payton ranked higher than him in terms of all time RBs.

Bob Lilly is at least in the discussion of best defensive tackle of all time with the likes of Alan Page, Joe Greene and Merlin Olsen.

[DFWJC]

I agree that both Smith and especially Lilly would get a lot of mention.

I clarified outside of out fanbase specifically for Emmitt. He barely makes the top 10 in some lists, and not the top 5 in most.
But if someone wanted to argue "production" vs "best" then that story would change.

My guess is that Deion gets mentioned by some as the best at his position more often than Emmitt does.

Lilly was awesome.

[KJJ]

Originally Posted by percyhoward

You can try reading it and see if you come away with a different impression:
"Although he was named SB MVP in SB V, that was an awfully played game in which the Cowboys lost."

It sure sounds like you're trying to say that Howley's MVP performance is somehow diminished or overlooked because he was on the losing team, and because the defenses outplayed the offenses. I don't get your logic. Those two facts are so unusual for Super Bowls that they should actually draw attention to Howley's performance.


More bizarre logic, which I'll address (and compare Howley to the players you listed) when I have more time.

I'll let my sig speak for itself in the meantime.

Winning a SB MVP award is diminished if it's in a losing effort even Howley admitted that but it certainly isn't the reason he hasn't been voted into the HOF. lol I know from having discussions with you in the past you'll put your own spin on anything just to create an argument. Don't waste your time comparing Howley with those other LB's I've listed you're a biased FAN who thinks he's not in the HOF because there's a biased against the Cowboys amongst HOF voters your sig says it all. I gave all the reasons why he's not in the HOF but you decided to put your own spin on one comment I made because you're looking for an argument.

[mldardy]

Originally Posted by DFWJC

I agree that both Smith and especially Lilly would get a lot of mention.

I clarified outside of out fanbase specifically for Emmitt. He barely makes the top 10 in some lists, and not the top 5 in most.
But if someone wanted to argue "production" vs "best" then that story would change.

My guess is that Deion gets mentioned by some as the best at his position more often than Emmitt does.

Lilly was awesome.

I'm not sure what lists you are looking at but Emmitt is always in the top 10 of most lists and top 5 of some lists.

[DFWJC]

Originally Posted by mldardy

I'm not sure what lists you are looking at but Emmitt is always in the top 10 of most lists and top 5 of some lists.

That's basically what I said.
Most of the time he is in the top 10.
But much less of the time (but still some of the time) he's in the top 5.
Outside our Cowboy fans though, he's never really at the very top.

[percyhoward]

Originally Posted by KJJ

Don't waste your time comparing Howley with those other LB's I've listed you're a biased FAN who thinks he's not in the HOF because there's a biased against the Cowboys amongst HOF voters your sig says it all. I gave all the reasons why he's not in the HOF but you decided to put your own spin on one comment I made because you're looking for an argument.

Calling someone a fan (or anything else, for that matter) doesn't affect the point he's just made. If my argument is flawed, show me where.

Chuck Howley: 18 All-NFL 1st Teams, (5 A.P.), 6 Pro Bowls
Robert Brazile: 15 All-NFL 1st Teams (2 A.P.), 7 Pro Bowls
Dave Robinson: 12 All-NFL 1st Teams (1 A.P.), 3 Pro Bowls
Randy Gradishar: 11 All-NFL 1st Teams (2 A.P.), 7 Pro Bowls
Maxie Baughan: 7 All-NFL 1st Teams (2 A.P.), 9 Pro Bowls
Kevin Greene: 6 All-NFL 1st Teams, (2 A.P.), 5 Pro Bowls
Andy Russell: 1 All-NFL 1st Team, (0 A.P.), 7 Pro Bowls

The Associated Press voted Howley the best in the NFL at his position five different times. Robinson is already in. Howley, Brazile, and Gradishar should all be in. After that, you get to some players who were consistently viewed as second- or third-best in the league.

Even so, the fact that Brazile and Gradishar should be in the HOF doesn't change the fact that Howley should also be in, and probably ahead of them.

If you have an argument that there really is no bias, it's time for you to present it now.

[KJJ]

Originally Posted by percyhoward

Calling someone a fan (or anything else, for that matter) doesn't affect the point he's just made. If my argument is flawed, show me where.

Chuck Howley: 18 All-NFL 1st Teams, (5 A.P.), 6 Pro Bowls
Robert Brazile: 15 All-NFL 1st Teams (2 A.P.), 7 Pro Bowls
Dave Robinson: 12 All-NFL 1st Teams (1 A.P.), 3 Pro Bowls
Randy Gradishar: 11 All-NFL 1st Teams (2 A.P.), 7 Pro Bowls
Maxie Baughan: 7 All-NFL 1st Teams (2 A.P.), 9 Pro Bowls
Kevin Greene: 6 All-NFL 1st Teams, (2 A.P.), 5 Pro Bowls
Andy Russell: 1 All-NFL 1st Team, (0 A.P.), 7 Pro Bowls

The Associated Press voted Howley the best in the NFL at his position five different times. Robinson is already in. Howley, Brazile, and Gradishar should all be in. After that, you get to some players who were consistently viewed as second- or third-best in the league.

[View Full Quote]Even so, the fact that Brazile and Gradishar should be in the HOF doesn't change the fact that Howley should also be in, and probably ahead of them.

If you have an argument that there really is no bias, it's time for you to present it now.

There is no Cowboy bias that's only in the heads of some Cowboy FANS like yourself. If there was a "Cowboy" bias several Cowboy players including Irvin and Aikman wouldn't have been voted in I've already pointed that out. Troy didn't have HOF numbers there's fans around the league that will tell you he was never that good but he was voted into the HOF on the first ballot because he led the Cowboys to 3 championships in 4 years. Irvin had off the field issues including drugs and infidelity that would have turned voters off if there was a Cowboy bias.

If you look through history there's many players who had HOF credentials who have yet to be voted in and may never but it has nothing to do with the team they played for. The HOF voters don't have a team bias but some do have a player bias which Al Michaels admitted this is why Charles Haley hasn't been voted in.

[percyhoward]

Originally Posted by KJJ

There is no Cowboy bias that's only in the heads of some Cowboy FANS like yourself. If there was a "Cowboy" bias several Cowboy players including Irvin and Aikman wouldn't have been voted in I've already pointed that out. Troy didn't have HOF numbers there's fans around the league that will tell you he was never that good but he was voted into the HOF on the first ballot because he led the Cowboys to 3 championships in 4 years. Irvin had off the field issues including drugs and infidelity that would have turned voters off if there was a Cowboy bias.

When I look at all WR with similar careers as Irvin's, (1st team AP All-Pro, SB ring, All-Decade selection) they are all in the HOF. Well, all except Drew Pearson. When I look at the eligible QB with three rings, I see that they, too, are all in the HOF.

So explain how a QB with three rings and an All-Decade WR being in the HOF proves there is no bias.

Originally Posted by KJJ

If you look through history there's many players who had HOF credentials who have yet to be voted in and may never but it has nothing to do with the team they played for. The HOF voters don't have a team bias but some do have a player bias which Al Michaels admitted this is why Charles Haley hasn't been voted in.

Al Michaels is not on the selection committee.

Here's what Paul Zimmerman said, just after he resigned from the committee in 2004 in protest of Bob Hayes being denied induction:

"There's probably some twisted Cowboys bias there. There are more Cowboys who deserve it. Chuck Howley deserves it. Lee Roy Jordan deserves it. But God forbid you propose those guys after what they did to these guys (Hayes, Cliff Harris, and Rayfield Wright)."

Zimmerman was a long-time writer for Sports Illustrated who was never associated with the Cowboys in any way. He wasn't alone in his opinion.

"I hope there isn't a bias, but when you look at the results, you have to raise the question." -- Don Pierson, Chicago Tribune

But forget what some of the selectors themselves have said, you can just look at the numbers and make up your own mind.