(long) Defensive worries gone overboard; for nfldraftblitz - Page 2 - Dallas Cowboys Forum

Zaxor · 07-08-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I have trouble with doing things half way. 3-4, 4-3, mix and match hybrid, screw that. Pick one and build it with the best 11 players you can put on the field.

Win now, build for the future or try to do both?

If we are going to turn the defense over to the young guys, with all the rough patches that will likely have, why not do the same on offense? Why not get all the growing pains out of the way now?

If Glover and Ellis are too old and average, then what the hell is Bledsoe?

BZ I agree 100%... to not do so is irresponsible to me... either sh or get off the pot..don't just sit their and take space...

junk · 07-08-2005

Kind of a subtle slap in the face to anyone who questions the 3-4, JT.

In truth, it is a legitimate concern. The switch to a 3-4 base is the biggest thing that is happening this offseason and will have major implications on the Cowboys season.

While I may agree on keeping Glover fresh, he was the defense's best player last year. I would argue that Ellis was second. Both are better suited to a 4-3 and I think Glover is much more that a gap shooting DT that "can't hold the point of attack". If that was the case, BP wouldn't even consider him at the nose in the 3-4.

As far as Ware and Spears, they both come from 4-3 backgrounds. There is no guarantee that they can even play in the NFL, much less transition to the 3-4. Another legit concern although personally, I think they will be able to do it.

I agree on Ware not being an OLB in the 4-3. However, Burnett, Nguyen and even Singleton is a solid LB core. Shanle couldn't even beat out Singleton last year and now is counting on competing with James for a starting middle spot in the 3-4. James was awful last year.

I thought the idea was that in the 3-4 you could just plug bodies in at the 3-4 end position and use draft picks and money to find pass rushing OLB because that was "easier". Yet the team burns a first round pick on Spears....to be a 3-4 end. He's a guy I think would be much more effective in another scheme. He could be a Kevin Williams type DT/DE. If you just want guys to hold the line of scrimmage, why not sign Marques Douglas on the cheap and let Kenyon Coleman/Greg Ellis/Canty man that other DE spot and use #20 on one of those "tough to fill" positions?

Personally, I am all for the scheme that best fits the talent on the squad. If thats the 3-4, great, but I think its naive to dismiss any concerns. I think the coaching staff themselves have them and will use TC to determine exactly what kind of defense will be run.

**ABQCOWBOY** · 07-08-2005

I share the opinions of some in that this is not a great move for Ellis or Glover. Ellis has improved his sack totals each of the past 4 seasons. He Registard 9 sacks last year with what I would consider poor supporting cast. What could he do with the likes of Ferguson, Glover, Spears/Canty, Ware at OLB and Roy playing close to the line? This concept of Ellis being free to go one on one in a 34 is rubbish. Who do you double team in a 43 with that kind of pass rushing talent at the OLB? I also believe Ellis is undersized for DE in a 34 but he's about perfect for DE in a 43. There is also truth to the fact that Ellis will no longer be shading somebodies outside shoulder in a 34. He will have to lock up on a regular basis. This is going to negate any speed advantage he has. His sack production will go down IMO. As for injury, I believe Ellis' injury was a broken leg. It wasn't a knee or the like. I don't really see how that affects anything. Probably healed stronger then it was before. 30 is the prime for a DE. He is reaching his physical peak from a strength perspective. His agility is still there at that age. His endurance is still high. His knowledge of the game has matured. Greg Ellis will likely be the best DE he can be over the next few years. In a situation where we have multiple rush threates, that finally allows him to play one on one. Who knows what his production could be in that situation? I too think it is a waste.

As for Glover, same deal. Playing DE in a 34 is going to do the same for him. The example given by the writer says that 65% of plays is exactly what you want from this guy. Well, I agree with this but all 65% of those plays are not going to be at his natural position. If we really are going to a 34, I think we should have traded Glover. I don't see him being as effective as he could be in that scheme.

**ABQCOWBOY** · 07-08-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by junk

Kind of a subtle slap in the face to anyone who questions the 3-4, JT.

In truth, it is a legitimate concern. The switch to a 3-4 base is the biggest thing that is happening this offseason and will have major implications on the Cowboys season.

While I may agree on keeping Glover fresh, he was the defense's best player last year. I would argue that Ellis was second. Both are better suited to a 4-3 and I think Glover is much more that a gap shooting DT that "can't hold the point of attack". If that was the case, BP wouldn't even consider him at the nose in the 3-4.

As far as Ware and Spears, they both come from 4-3 backgrounds. There is no guarantee that they can even play in the NFL, much less transition to the 3-4. Another legit concern although personally, I think they will be able to do it.

[View Full Quote]

I think Ware could play OLB in a 43. I definatly think he could play DE in a 43 but from all accounts, he's got the physical attributes to play OLB in a 43. I would actually like to see what he can do there.

InmanRoshi · 07-08-2005

It isn't complicated math.

Generally most teams that use the 3-4 still use a 4 man front in nickel. Have you people never watched the Baltimore Ravens and Terrell Suggs?

Nickel makes up 50% of defensive snaps, alone.

Ellis and Glover will get 50% of their snaps in a 4 man set.

Glover will be off the field at what he does worst ... run defense and holding up the point of attack (that's according to his former GM Randy Mueller), and fresh for what he does best ... penetrating gaps and getting pass rush up the middle.

So much handwringing and sweaty palms over nothing.

junk · 07-08-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by InmanRoshi

It isn't complicated math.

Generally most teams that use the 3-4 still use a 4 man front in nickel. Have you people never watched the Baltimore Ravens and Terrell Suggs?

Nickel makes up 50% of defensive snaps, alone.

Ellis and Glover will get 50% of their snaps in a 4 man set.

Glover will be off the field at what he does worst ... run defense and holding up the point of attack (that's according to his former GM Randy Mueller), and fresh for what he does best ... penetrating gaps and getting pass rush up the middle.

So much handwringing and sweaty palms over nothing.

The same Randy Mueller that built the Saints into the dynasty that they are? The same one who was out of work for how long? I'll take his opinion with a grain of salt. Glover was the best defensive player on the field last year.

Yes, the nickel will more than likely be a four man front. I agree that is where Glover will get the bulk of his snaps and be most effective. I have no issue with him getting his snaps that way. I do have questions about the 3-4.

However, I don't think it is handwringing and sweaty palms over nothing. Its a pretty big assumption to just think that Spears, Ware, James/Shanle, Ellis, Singleton/Burnett, etc. are just going to step in and be terrific in a 3-4.

I hope it works and I think it can, but its just naive to dismiss it as something that isn't a concern. Basically, its the biggest thing going on at VR and it has a lot of question marks behind it. I thought a message board was a place to discuss this stuff, not just follow along like a bunch of cattle.

InmanRoshi · 07-09-2005

Quote:

The same Randy Mueller that built the Saints into the dynasty that they are? The same one who was out of work for how long? I'll take his opinion with a grain of salt.

Well, I personally think he's better qualified to speak on the subject than anyone on this board ... by quite a large margin, really.

InmanRoshi · 07-09-2005

Quote:

The same Randy Mueller that built the Saints into the dynasty that they are? The same one who was out of work for how long? I'll take his opinion with a grain of salt.

Yes, the same one. The one who was just hired by Nick Saban for his 3rd general manager position in the NFL. , I personally think he's better qualified to speak on the subject than anyone on this board ... by quite a large margin, really. He's actually sat in film rooms while coaches were grading him, as opposed to basing their opinions off of hype and reputation. And the fact that Parcells seems to have no qualms putting him on the bench this year in non nickel situations, and really wanted to do it last year had Daleroy Stewart not been such a flop, speaks volumes as well.

He's just not a good player at the point of attack and leaves huge rushing lanes behind him by jumping gaps. I don't blame him for jumping gaps .. he's a 282 lbs. But he is what he is.

blindzebra · 07-09-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by InmanRoshi

Yes, the same one. The one who was just hired by Nick Saban for his 3rd general manager position in the NFL. , I personally think he's better qualified to speak on the subject than anyone on this board ... by quite a large margin, really. He's actually sat in film rooms while coaches were grading him, as opposed to basing their opinions off of hype and reputation. And the fact that Parcells seems to have no qualms putting him on the bench this year in non nickel situations, and really wanted to do it last year had Daleroy Stewart not been such a flop, speaks volumes as well.

He's just not a good player at the point of attack and leaves huge rushing lanes behind him by jumping gaps. I don't blame him for jumping gaps .. he's a 282 lbs. But he is what he is.

That is total fabrication, post a source that says Parcells wanted to play Stewart over Glover, except in the nickel. Total and complete BS.

InmanRoshi · 07-09-2005

Its not a total fabrication to say that Parcells wanted to give Stewart more snaps and Glover less. He said as much in the mini-camps last year. And I don't think they were talking about giving Stewart more snaps in the nickel, either. Ideally, Parcells probably would have prefered a 65/35 total snap ratio between Glover and Stewart, with Glover in on all nickel packages. With nickel packages taking up 50% of the snaps, that would have only left Glover with 15% of snaps in the base. Which is exactly what we should see this year. Glover getting spot duty in the base, and extensive duty in nickel .. which gives him 65%-70% of the total snaps. Which is how he would be best utilized.

So why is it such a huge concern that he's not playing as many snaps this year and not last year? At least he's sharing time with a real football player this time.

**ABQCOWBOY** · 07-09-2005

Does anyone watch a 34? Humm......

Glover at DE in a 34 is a waste of his talents. I have said this for a very long time. I am content to wait and see how this plays out. I stand by what I posted earlier. Glover playing at DE in a 34 is not the best use of his talents. Ellis getting moved to a 34 DE will prove to be the same IMO. We will see.

**big dog cowboy** · 07-09-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jterrell

Dallas lost Dexter Coakley and Marcellus Wiley off of last year’s defense.

It's interesting to read how players are "lost" each year that we didn't have any intention of keeping in the first place.

InmanRoshi · 07-09-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

Does anyone watch a 34? Humm......

Glover at DE in a 34 is a waste of his talents. I have said this for a very long time. I am content to wait and see how this plays out. I stand by what I posted earlier. Glover playing at DE in a 34 is not the best use of his talents. Ellis getting moved to a 34 DE will prove to be the same IMO. We will see.

Some of us have watched enough 3-4 to know that they use 4 man fronts in the nickel, which is 50% of the snaps, which are the snaps that Glover will be playing. Some of us have enen watched enough to know that the nose guard will be lined up in the center-gap at times.

And even the 3-4 "base" package is not much of a "base". Its much more diverse and complicated than these vanilla, textbook "The noseguard lines always over the center in a 0 technique" type of elemetary factoids of the JJT variety.

junk · 07-09-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by InmanRoshi

Yes, the same one. The one who was just hired by Nick Saban for his 3rd general manager position in the NFL. , I personally think he's better qualified to speak on the subject than anyone on this board ... by quite a large margin, really. He's actually sat in film rooms while coaches were grading him, as opposed to basing their opinions off of hype and reputation. And the fact that Parcells seems to have no qualms putting him on the bench this year in non nickel situations, and really wanted to do it last year had Daleroy Stewart not been such a flop, speaks volumes as well.

He's just not a good player at the point of attack and leaves huge rushing lanes behind him by jumping gaps. I don't blame him for jumping gaps .. he's a 282 lbs. But he is what he is.

Boy, that fired you up, you had to post the same thing twice in a row one minute apart.

Sure, Randy Mueller may be better qualified than some on this board....but that still doesn't make him good at his job. Taking a job as a figure head GM in an organization run by Saban I am sure isn't his dream job.

Glover commands a ton of double teams, of course it makes sense to get him fewer snaps. Of course, with some players with actual talent beside him, maybe he gets fewer double teams and remains fresher to make more plays. I really doubt if he was concerned about Daleroy Stewart stealing his snaps.

Shooting gaps is Glover's responsibility. Why spin that as a bad thing? A one-gap DT shoots gaps.

And I agree, he is what he is. The best player on the Cowboys defense last year. I am not opposed to getting him fewer snaps and making him part of a rotation. I do think a scheme needs to be in place that maximizes his effectiveness. That is what a good defense does, creates a scheme to maximizes the effectiveness of the players on the squad. I am not ready to throw Glover on the scrap heap yet.

Quote:

Assets A tremendous penetrator with a great burst off the line. Hard worker with great technique. Uses his hands well and doesn't let blockers latch on. Plays the run well and is always in the backfield.
Flaws Gets worn down by double teams. Will never repeat his 17-sack performance of two seasons ago.
Career potential Excellent starter.

http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/teams/player_b...29&hubname=DAL

Quote:

Plays with a wide base, plays with good leverage and possesses good lower body strength. Uses hands well, has the upper body strength to maintain separation from offensive linemen and can shed blocks quickly. Shows excellent lateral mobility, rarely gets sealed when teams run outside and does a nice job of forcing backs to stretch runs outside. Plays with a good motor and is relentless in pursuit. Takes good angles to the ball and does a nice job of closing down cutback lanes. Is relentless and shows a variety of different moves. Shows good awareness and runs line stunts well. Hasnt missed a game since the 1997 season and is durable. However, Glover lacks ideal bulk for a defensive tackle and ideal speed for a defensive end. Cant regularly beat double teams and is vulnerable to wearing down over the course of the game when lined up on the inside.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/players...g?statsId=3641

The last line is telling. Like I said, no issue with rotation.