Boom or Bust in 04: Joey Harringon and David Carr

[jterrell]

Originally Posted by Hostile

Doesn't change the contradiction, but I still luv ya.

Actually there is no contradiction. We are talking about the guys entering a make or break year as QC did last season. He didnt get off the hot seat. Maybe they do or dont.

I have offered up any QB with as much or less experience as QC as legitimate comparisons. It is clear he did more in year 3 than any of the younger QBs did and also more than any of the guys from his same class.

If you are simply saying it is not fair to compare year 2 guys to a guy in year 3 I simply say that they must do at least what he did in year 3 which was just enough to hold his job. Essentially he set the benchmark. If they come in short of it they will probably be out at QB.

Detroit cant add anything else to the offense but a new QB and Houston also drafted Dave Ragone. Carr and Harrington arent cheap. If they arent helping the team win they will be gone sooner rather than later to get the cap hit off the books.

The initial post was about Carr and Harrington entering a make or break year and noting that they hadnt even achieved what QC had. Nothing in the original post was even slightly questionable from a factual basis.

The Cowboys were the worst team in football when Aikman was drafted. Aikman lead the Cowboys to a Super Bowl in year 4. In year 3 he showed a ton of improvement and the team was substantially better. Carr and Harrington are entering year 3.

Carr has started 27 games, Harrington 28. Carter 31. So they have a relatively similar number of starts yet the stats arent close at all. QC's are far superior.

The only contradictions are the ones that say QC is horrible yet these two guys are legit franchise QBs when they havent even performed to his level.

[Hostile]

Originally Posted by jterrell

Actually there is no contradiction. We are talking about the guys entering a make or break year as QC did last season. He didnt get off the hot seat. Maybe they do or dont.

I have offered up any QB with as much or less experience as QC as legitimate comparisons. It is clear he did more in year 3 than any of the younger QBs did and also more than any of the guys from his same class.

If you are simply saying it is not fair to compare year 2 guys to a guy in year 3 I simply say that they must do at least what he did in year 3 which was just enough to hold his job. Essentially he set the benchmark. If they come in short of it they will probably be out at QB.

Detroit cant add anything else to the offense but a new QB and Houston also drafted Dave Ragone. Carr and Harrington arent cheap. If they arent helping the team win they will be gone sooner rather than later to get the cap hit off the books.

[View Full Quote]The initial post was about Carr and Harrington entering a make or break year and noting that they hadnt even achieved what QC had. Nothing in the original post was even slightly questionable from a factual basis.

The Cowboys were the worst team in football when Aikman was drafted. Aikman lead the Cowboys to a Super Bowl in year 4. In year 3 he showed a ton of improvement and the team was substantially better. Carr and Harrington are entering year 3.

Carr has started 27 games, Harrington 28. Carter 31. So they have a relatively similar number of starts yet the stats arent close at all. QC's are far superior.

The only contradictions are the ones that say QC is horrible yet these two guys are legit franchise QBs when they havent even performed to his level.

Okay let's look at exactly what I said was a contradiction.

Quoting you...

"QC should be getting compared to ONLY QBs with the same level of experience and time of service in the NFL"

That would be 3 years in the NFL going on year 4.

Quoting you, very next paragraph...

"This is the year for a lot of QBs to either spit the bit or to get it. And QC is one of those guys. Its fair to add Carr and Harrington to that list."

They just finished 2 years going on 3. Therefore, by your own criteria not comparable, or at least not fair. They do not have the same time of service in the NFL.

Now let's address your last statement. I did not call Q "horrible," nor did I call those guys "franchise QBs." Not guilty your honor.

All I said was "you contradicted yourself." And clearly you did. You put the word ONLY in all caps, not me.

The ONLY QBs by that statement that it is fair to compare Q to are Brees, Vick, and as you corrected Tuiasosopo. If you want to do that, be my guest. It had nothing to do with why I was poking fun at you at all. I am not comparing him to any QB in this thread. You did.

Now, if you want to change that ONLY parameter after the fact, okay with me. I was just joking anyway. I'll back off because heaven knows this is a subject that it is taboo to joke about. Do not defile the sacred cow.

Holla.

[Rude]

Originally Posted by jterrell

Actually there is no contradiction. We are talking about the guys entering a make or break year as QC did last season. He didnt get off the hot seat. Maybe they do or dont.

I have offered up any QB with as much or less experience as QC as legitimate comparisons. It is clear he did more in year 3 than any of the younger QBs did and also more than any of the guys from his same class.

If you are simply saying it is not fair to compare year 2 guys to a guy in year 3 I simply say that they must do at least what he did in year 3 which was just enough to hold his job. Essentially he set the benchmark. If they come in short of it they will probably be out at QB.

Detroit cant add anything else to the offense but a new QB and Houston also drafted Dave Ragone. Carr and Harrington arent cheap. If they arent helping the team win they will be gone sooner rather than later to get the cap hit off the books.

[View Full Quote]The initial post was about Carr and Harrington entering a make or break year and noting that they hadnt even achieved what QC had. Nothing in the original post was even slightly questionable from a factual basis.

The Cowboys were the worst team in football when Aikman was drafted. Aikman lead the Cowboys to a Super Bowl in year 4. In year 3 he showed a ton of improvement and the team was substantially better. Carr and Harrington are entering year 3.

Carr has started 27 games, Harrington 28. Carter 31. So they have a relatively similar number of starts yet the stats arent close at all. QC's are far superior.

The only contradictions are the ones that say QC is horrible yet these two guys are legit franchise QBs when they havent even performed to his level.

Great points

[Hostile]

Originally Posted by Rude

Great points

In comparison to his other contradiction...I agree. Nice spin control. No doubt about it JT is one of the best writes and debaters on this forum.








Still just picking on ya JT.

[The Great Number 8]

Originally Posted by jterrell

Carr has started 27 games, Harrington 28. Carter 31. So they have a relatively similar number of starts yet the stats arent close at all. QC's are far superior.

So, on the same note, I'll offer up Marc Bulger at 28 games and Chad Pennington at 29 games. Heck, why not even Tom Brady? He's only 3 months older than Q and while he has played 47 games vs. Q's 31, that gap would be about 9 closer if Q wasn't trying to re-write the playbook without Coslet's permission a couple of years ago.

Why aren't we using those guys as the benchmark for everyone?

As for your earlier comment about Q taking his team to the playoffs, well that's about the same as saying the Ravens were led to the 2001 Super Bowl by Elvis Grbac.

[Nav22]

have you guys lost your minds- these were both top 3 picks in the draft playing on an expansion team and what could be called the worst team of the last three years. Both of these qbs have strong arms, are mobile and are by all accounts fierce competitors and leaders. Drew is the only QB on our team with a comparable upside or potential.

"Potential is nothing...performance is everything." - Bill Parcells

Perform this year or be considered busts. It's year 3, time to start turning that potential into production. Excellent and very necessary thread.

[twa]

I live near houston and naturaly hear and see many things about them,Way too much in fact .I feel that they will be successfull this year,the line is starting to come together.Carr should have his best year yet.8-8 or better is not unreasonable.

[jterrell]

Originally Posted by The Great Number 8

So, on the same note, I'll offer up Marc Bulger at 28 games and Chad Pennington at 29 games. Heck, why not even Tom Brady? He's only 3 months older than Q and while he has played 47 games vs. Q's 31, that gap would be about 9 closer if Q wasn't trying to re-write the playbook without Coslet's permission a couple of years ago.

Why aren't we using those guys as the benchmark for everyone?

As for your earlier comment about Q taking his team to the playoffs, well that's about the same as saying the Ravens were led to the 2001 Super Bowl by Elvis Grbac.

Pennington and Bulger had a lot longer on the bench to develop. Even at that Pennington had one good year. He is a good QB if he can stay healthy. Bulger is hanging onto his own job by a thread. Hard to call Bulger far superior to any starting QB.

Brady is fair if you subtract last season. Brady has obviously been a far, far better player.

As to your other points you are simply proving why theres misconceptions spewed nonstop.

1st. TRENT DILFER did lead the Ravens to the Super Bowl. They certianly werent winning every week until he took over at QB. Ray Lewis was their best player but they had 1 QB help win and that was DILFER.

2nd. Coslet was a moron. He was fired. He isnt coordinating anyone's offense. His comments about getting Hutch to the Pro Bowl look as stupid as any comments made by fans. He was clueless and cost himself and Dave Campo a job. Carter was a 2nd year QB threw under the bus. Dallas went from 3-4 with QC to 2-7 without. All the Cowboys proved was that they could stomache losing with Carter on the bench. BP obviously was able ot get past the incidents to determine who was gonna play and that soemone was Carter. If Coslet had simply went with the better QB he probably wouldnt be "consulting".

Lastly if you compare every artist to DaVinci, every philosopher to Aristotle, every whatever to the greatest in their field you will everyone lacking. The point is to compare people to their peers. Carter's peers are other young QBs with about 30 starts. Not guys with 50 NFL starts or guys who have started 3 years in NFL Europe to gain experience.

Carter compared to his peers has been developing. Compared to the very best players he isnt as good.

Aikman wasnt Montana either but we didnt cut him now did we? He wasnt even Marino but he won more right? Statisically Aikman was a dink and dunk passer and has nothing close to hall of fame stats but he certianly deserves to be in because he ran the offense to perfection and 3 Super Bowl wins. Emmitt was the best player. Irvin arguably more irreplaceable but Aikman was the QB and QBs lead the offense no matter who is at QB.

[Zaxor]

Originally Posted by jterrell

Pennington and Bulger had a lot longer on the bench to develop. Even at that Pennington had one good year. He is a good QB if he can stay healthy. Bulger is hanging onto his own job by a thread. Hard to call Bulger far superior to any starting QB.

Brady is fair if you subtract last season. Brady has obviously been a far, far better player.

As to your other points you are simply proving why theres misconceptions spewed nonstop.

1st. TRENT DILFER did lead the Ravens to the Super Bowl. They certianly werent winning every week until he took over at QB. Ray Lewis was their best player but they had 1 QB help win and that was DILFER.

[View Full Quote]2nd. Coslet was a moron. He was fired. He isnt coordinating anyone's offense. His comments about getting Hutch to the Pro Bowl look as stupid as any comments made by fans. He was clueless and cost himself and Dave Campo a job. Carter was a 2nd year QB threw under the bus. Dallas went from 3-4 with QC to 2-7 without. All the Cowboys proved was that they could stomache losing with Carter on the bench. BP obviously was able ot get past the incidents to determine who was gonna play and that soemone was Carter. If Coslet had simply went with the better QB he probably wouldnt be "consulting".

Lastly if you compare every artist to DaVinci, every philosopher to Aristotle, every whatever to the greatest in their field you will everyone lacking. The point is to compare people to their peers. Carter's peers are other young QBs with about 30 starts. Not guys with 50 NFL starts or guys who have started 3 years in NFL Europe to gain experience.

Carter compared to his peers has been developing. Compared to the very best players he isnt as good.

Aikman wasnt Montana either but we didnt cut him now did we? He wasnt even Marino but he won more right? Statisically Aikman was a dink and dunk passer and has nothing close to hall of fame stats but he certianly deserves to be in because he ran the offense to perfection and 3 Super Bowl wins. Emmitt was the best player. Irvin arguably more irreplaceable but Aikman was the QB and QBs lead the offense no matter who is at QB.

Look at rare times Q throws a good accurate ball...I realize.. do to
certain defense alignments, the way a defender is playing the Rec. etc...can
effect where the ball must be thrown but I just got through watching as I do
every off-season the games from the last season...Q's accuracy...
wait...there is no accuracy..its more luck I think..There are times where he
strings together 4-5 semi-good passes (somewhere near the rec.) then he may
throw 2-3 Great passes in a game (picture perfect, sometimes threading the
needle) but then there are the times that the pass is so ugly as to be
unbelievable...but you need not believe me if you have the time and have taped the games go and look for yourself...Its like a Q has a Wonder Arm
you always Wonder what you are gonna get...and that lack of consistence will
and has been Q's undoing...I looked to see if it was caused by pressure from
the pass rush...getting hit to many times...I looked for anything to blame
it on...Nothing, zip, nada it comes at anytime or any point in the
game...comes when we are running the ball well or not...comes when we are
blocking well or not...
A Qb can not play that inconsistently in the NFL and expect to hold onto the
starting job... Some of the INT's are real head scratchers...I have no idea
who, what, or where he was throwing it to...The Tampa bay game was
ugly...The second half of the second Philly game was ugly...Of course
Football is a team game and all elements must be taken in to
consideration...But this thread is not about the team but about the QB play
which was ugly in games I mentioned above...It seems to me if Q tries to
press or get outside of the game plan it gets even worse...see the N.E.
game... The closer we got to the red zone the more inaccurate he
got...notice I did not say the more the rec. disappeared because accurate
throws would have resulted in scores...If his stats from the Coslett year
was extended to a full year for Q he would have done better that year than
he did this year...the O-line was so atrocious in the Coslett year that we
were pulling people of the street to play... and Q was actually doing better
than he did under Parcells with new and improved TE's and better O-line... A
Ritchie Anderson...better coaching...better atmosphere.etc. etc... I seen
no real improvement in Q can any of you honestly say that you did or that
you seen enough to even warrant him starting again...

I know about Q working hard, great guy...blah, blah... but you have to have
results without results you are just spinning your wheels(the NYG first game
was the only game the Offense really won)if by chance Romo, Henson or even
Hutch are close to being ready they need to see the field... I think we are
just spinning our wheels with Q..he had his three+ years I seriously doubt
he will show significant enough improvement in training camp if not we need
to move on...I would see no need to keep him on the roster or to extend his
contract...because a rookie can be just as inaccurate at a cheaper price. Really now Q did not even make a very good bus driver did he...oh sure
there are worse out there...Dumya could be Qbing (do we really want to go
there...(- but there are better and we all know it...It is just a matter
of finding it and we can not find it by spinning our wheels...

I believe I am going to join the ABC crowd if I can find the room as it is
getting pretty doggone full... Those of you that have the need to defend
Carter's honor you need not as it is not his honor that I doubt... Its the bus
drivers license..I think it is a counterfeit :-)

[twa]

Aikman a DINK and DUNK PASSER?????WHAT are you smoking?He had a cannon for a arm even after back surgery....Don't let your love for another QB or drugs cloud your thinking HE was a system qb otherwise he could have put up even greater numbers. Especialy a west coast dink and dunk offense.

[Hostile]

Originally Posted by jterrell

Pennington and Bulger had a lot longer on the bench to develop. Even at that Pennington had one good year. He is a good QB if he can stay healthy. Bulger is hanging onto his own job by a thread. Hard to call Bulger far superior to any starting QB.

Brady is fair if you subtract last season. Brady has obviously been a far, far better player.

As to your other points you are simply proving why theres misconceptions spewed nonstop.

1st. TRENT DILFER did lead the Ravens to the Super Bowl. They certianly werent winning every week until he took over at QB. Ray Lewis was their best player but they had 1 QB help win and that was DILFER.

[View Full Quote]2nd. Coslet was a moron. He was fired. He isnt coordinating anyone's offense. His comments about getting Hutch to the Pro Bowl look as stupid as any comments made by fans. He was clueless and cost himself and Dave Campo a job. Carter was a 2nd year QB threw under the bus. Dallas went from 3-4 with QC to 2-7 without. All the Cowboys proved was that they could stomache losing with Carter on the bench. BP obviously was able ot get past the incidents to determine who was gonna play and that soemone was Carter. If Coslet had simply went with the better QB he probably wouldnt be "consulting".

Lastly if you compare every artist to DaVinci, every philosopher to Aristotle, every whatever to the greatest in their field you will everyone lacking. The point is to compare people to their peers. Carter's peers are other young QBs with about 30 starts. Not guys with 50 NFL starts or guys who have started 3 years in NFL Europe to gain experience.

Carter compared to his peers has been developing. Compared to the very best players he isnt as good.

Aikman wasnt Montana either but we didnt cut him now did we? He wasnt even Marino but he won more right? Statisically Aikman was a dink and dunk passer and has nothing close to hall of fame stats but he certianly deserves to be in because he ran the offense to perfection and 3 Super Bowl wins. Emmitt was the best player. Irvin arguably more irreplaceable but Aikman was the QB and QBs lead the offense no matter who is at QB.

See what a contradiction gets ya? Now you have to defend him even harder.

[Doomsday101]

I can't speak for Detriot fans but living in Houston I know many Texans fans that are considering this a boom or bust year for Carr and have questioned the logic of the Texans trading Henson away without knowing if Carr can do the job or not.

[Zaxor]

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

I can't speak for Detriot fans but living in Houston I know many Texans fans that are considering this a boom or bust year for Carr and have questioned the logic of the Texans trading Henson away without knowing if Carr can do the job or not.

I would question the trade also

Zaxor

[twa]

Originally Posted by Zaxor

I would question the trade also

Zaxor

I am just happy as hell they made it.

[TruBlueCowboy]

I think it's pretty easy to compare Carr and Carter. Look at what Carr did in his first NFL game to the Cowboys. He was better than Quincy's first second year game. Quincy never would have done that in his first game. He looked like a lost puppy dog his first game against the Buccs. Carr is on an expansion team, I don't really expect him to already be tearing it up. But it's pretty freaking obvious just watching him play that he has much more talent than Quincy.