Hutch's is getting better, but..... - Page 4 - Dallas Cowboys Forum

aikemirv · 05-17-2004

I also think comparing Carter to these guys reaction is different from another point.

Collins took his team to the SB, Aikman was the 1st pick in the draft.

Situations a little different than Carter's. I think the negative reaction to Carter's attitude can be traced to the fact that it was only his second year, he had far from proved anything, in college or the Pro's and he was a second round draft choice who probably should not have gone til the 3rd or fourth.

Hostile · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

I agree. I'm very critical of QC but for no reason except I don't think he has what it takes to become a quality QB in this league and as a Cowboys fans I will not settle for anything less than a quality QB. Some love to say how this bad QB or that bad QB was able to help their team to the Super Bowl my response so what those guys and teams end up being 1 year wonders and then slide back to the bottom I want a hell of a lot more when talking about the Cowboys. If that makes me spoiled then so be it but I do not like to settle for less when talking about a critical position as I feel QB is.

Here's what it boils down to for me. A QB who can not get us to a Super Bowl is not near good enough for me. I am not pointing a finger by saying this. A QB who can get us to 1 Super Bowl is not near good enough for me even though I would love him for that year. I am looking for a guy who has multiple trophy potential.

I love Trent Dilfer. I think he may be the nicest guy in the NFL. I would take him as our vet backup QB or potential starter in 2004 right now. I do not think he can win 2 or 3 Super Bowls for us or any team. Therfore I would still be talking about trying to get better.

A lot of people are hung up on being the first team with 6 Super Bowl wins. That is all well and good. I will not be satisified with just 6.

If you want to win more than 1 Super Bowl then the History of the NFL shows that you need to have a QB capable of it and surround him with guys who believe in him. There is no refuting that. Jim Plunkett is the only QB who won more than 1 Super Bowl by being an also ran kind of QB.

Some people are looking for retribution for their faith in a certain player. I am looking for more and more Super Bowls.

Jimz31 · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hostile

If it's all the same to you, I'd rather not re-live these two threads. Very troubling.

I don't deny there are more negative posts about him. Doesn't excuse the double standard. I don't deny some of the negative posts about him are stupid. Please notice which threads I move to the Smack Talk Zone before you accuse me of contributing. You'll find that in those threads I don't try and contribute. By all means take a look and judge me then. I'm talking about good threads with good debates that go awry and accusatiosn fly.

That's just it, there isn't really a change in me. Just a change of focus. I'll change back and pick my spot carefully, and I'll bet you the flaming will be pretty good. Anything for entertainment I guess.

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Dude, I'm not going to go hatin' on you.....I don't hate anyone on this board. Everyone has opinions and in reality, talking about football, none of them actually matter when it comes to the Cowboys to be real honest about it.

Perhaps I am taking you wrong with your schtick. I'll tell you the reason why though and I think this is understandable.....Me and you have talked privately and it seems that you have changed (due to what your posts had in them), that were contradictory to what we discussed. I understand however, getting to the point beyond frustration, because I have been there done that......and am sure I will be back there.

I mean nothing personal by any of what I have told you. It seemed that you were slowly becoming like someone on the previous board who shall remain nameless.

No offense intended and hopefully none taken.

Just for the record, whoever told you that you disliked QC for the record is an imbecile and probably a racist himself.....be he black or white. Screw him/her.

aikemirv · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hostile

Here's what it boils down to for me. A QB who can not get us to a Super Bowl is not near good enough for me. I am not pointing a finger by saying this. A QB who can get us to 1 Super Bowl is not near good enough for me even though I would love him for that year. I am looking for a guy who has multiple trophy potential.

I love Trent Dilfer. I think he may be the nicest guy in the NFL. I would take him as our vet backup QB or potential starter in 2004 right now. I do not think he can win 2 or 3 Super Bowls for us or any team. Therfore I would still be talking about trying to get better.

A lot of people are hung up on being the first team with 6 Super Bowl wins. That is all well and good. I will not be satisified with just 6.

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I agree, I am not saying I want Hutchinson to be the QB of the future for the Cowboys either, he, at this point of time offers no intangibles.

I want a guy who has it all, maybe Henson will be that guy, maybe not. I don't believe that QC will ever be that guy, and Hutch may never be better than an average NFL QB.

Jimz31 · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by aikemirv

I also think comparing Carter to these guys reaction is different from another point.

Collins took his team to the SB, Aikman was the 1st pick in the draft.

Situations a little different than Carter's. I think the negative reaction to Carter's attitude can be traced to the fact that it was only his second year, he had far from proved anything, in college or the Pro's and he was a second round draft choice who probably should not have gone til the 3rd or fourth.

Yet it's OK to compare QC to superbowl guys and guys that were 1st round picks though right?

Believe it or not, that's what alot of people are doing and then they slam him when he's not playing at that level.

So, which is it going to be? Should we have expected him to play as a 2nd or 3rd round QB? Or should we have expected him to light it up? Hmmmm.....

Doomsday101 · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimz31

Yet it's OK to compare QC to superbowl guys and guys that were 1st round picks though right?

Believe it or not, that's what alot of people are doing and then they slam him when he's not playing at that level.

So, which is it going to be? Should we have expected him to play as a 2nd or 3rd round QB? Or should we have expected him to light it up? Hmmmm.....

Once the draft is over who care where a guy was picked? You either get the job done or you don't and draft position has nothing to do with it. Brady was a late pick and has 2 rings and has shown great consistantcy in his play through out his career. Heath Shuler was a 1st rd pick who bombed big time. When you get drafted is meaningless what you do once your in the league does matter.

aikemirv · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimz31

Yet it's OK to compare QC to superbowl guys and guys that were 1st round picks though right?

Believe it or not, that's what alot of people are doing and then they slam him when he's not playing at that level.

So, which is it going to be? Should we have expected him to play as a 2nd or 3rd round QB? Or should we have expected him to light it up? Hmmmm.....

We should expect him to play to the level of what he is. Frankly, playing to that level is not good enough and won't ever be if he plays to that level. That is the point, that is why people want change. What I think people hope for when you draft someone at that level is improvement.

He has improved over his rookie year, no doubt about it. The problem for me though is that over last year, from beg to end of the season he did not progress but got worse. I was hopeful for him last year, but his perf over the last half did not give me much hope that he will get that much better.

Hey, if he is still the best QB after the preseason, I will be all for letting him start. I just want to win, if he offers the best chance of winning then I would give him another year... but is Henson or Hutch come close to him in preseason and show a much greater upside than him, yuo have to start looking to the future, earlier than later!

Hostile · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimz31

Dude, I'm not going to go hatin' on you.....I don't hate anyone on this board. Everyone has opinions and in reality, talking about football, none of them actually matter when it comes to the Cowboys to be real honest about it.

Perhaps I am taking you wrong with your schtick. I'll tell you the reason why though and I think this is understandable.....Me and you have talked privately and it seems that you have changed (due to what your posts had in them), that were contradictory to what we discussed. I understand however, getting to the point beyond frustration, because I have been there done that......and am sure I will be back there.

I mean nothing personal by any of what I have told you. It seemed that you were slowly becoming like someone on the previous board who shall remain nameless.

No offense intended and hopefully none taken.

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Frustration is exactly where it is with me. Like I said, when I can get attacked to the level I was in a thread where I praise the kid then enough is enough. He's not worth the grief to me.

RCowboyFan · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimz31

Geez, when I didn't think someone could read anything more into what was being said.....

I didn't "compare" the two. I said that all QB's are the same when this sort of thing happens.....do you disagree with that? Carter was told that HE was the future and then their continued acquisitions among other things told him something separate.....ANYBODY could see what was happening.....are you trying to say that YOU didn't see it happening? We even discussed it on the board before it happened.....were YOU out of the loop or something?

Nowhere was an "excuse" made. Facts are facts, and if YOU wish to call this an excuse, then a legitimate excuse it is.

Oh yeah, I know, the same old excuse of I am not being interpreted correctly. You never change that Mantra do you man? Oh well, thats I normally dont get into arguments with Quincy fans in general. They seem to have the same Victim complex as their Idol

Ok, so bottom line you are saying, circumstances should not be considered when making a judgement? Oh, so you, to bring up a very obvious example, you are saying, A person killed in Action during a combat and person killed by say a suicide bomb is same then? In other words, you have a QB, who many consider proven ( ala Collins), who is told you are going to be around for only one year till the young one gets enough experience, and on other hand you have QB, who basically didn't even know how to take a proper snap previous year and never proved that he might be answer, as same?

Ok, so be it. I guess Poor Carter was victim indeed, he had legitimate reason to Pout and be a poor leader etc. Whatever makes you happy man. I know you probably will come back with, thats NOt what I meant or I am not excusing carter or so on forth. Well, like I said, whatever pleases you then, I dont care to argue endlessly anymore.

Hostile · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by aikemirv

I agree, I am not saying I want Hutchinson to be the QB of the future for the Cowboys either, he, at this point of time offers no intangibles.

I want a guy who has it all, maybe Henson will be that guy, maybe not. I don't believe that QC will ever be that guy, and Hutch may never be better than an average NFL QB.

I think Hutch and Q are JAGs. Parcellian for "Just a Guy."

I don't have an opinion on Henson yet other than the scouting reports on him are glowing and that gives me hope he can fit the definition I just gave.

Jimz31 · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hostile

Frustration is exactly where it is with me. Like I said, when I can get attacked to the level I was in a thread where I praise the kid then enough is enough. He's not worth the grief to me.

Carter didn't attack you, some on his side may have, but why not say that the poster isn't worth the grief instead of the other way around?

Jimz31 · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCowboyFan

Oh yeah, I know, the same old excuse of I am not being interpreted correctly. You never change that Mantra do you man? Oh well, thats I normally dont get into arguments with Quincy fans in general. They seem to have the same Victim complex as their Idol

Ok, so bottom line you are saying, circumstances should not be considered when making a judgement? Oh, so you, to bring up a very obvious example, you are saying, A person killed in Action during a combat and person killed by say a suicide bomb is same then? In other words, you have a QB, who many consider proven ( ala Collins), who is told you are going to be around for only one year till the young one gets enough experience, and on other hand you have QB, who basically didn't even know how to take a proper snap previous year and never proved that he might be answer, as same?

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Holy crap man, we are talking about a MINDSET. Just like a "hater" to read things into something so as to bring out the extremes for his arguement.....happens all the time.

So, Elway should never have pouted about who drafted him? Saying that he wasn't going to play for the Colts? Personally, I don't think that he should have, but.....

if you don't have a QB with an 'I'm the best mindset" then there is a problem. You abviously think they need to be "taught" that.

Brokejumper · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by aikemirv

He has improved over his rookie year, no doubt about it. The problem for me though is that over last year, from beg to end of the season he did not progress but got worse. I was hopeful for him last year, but his perf over the last half did not give me much hope that he will get that much better.

Hey, if he is still the best QB after the preseason, I will be all for letting him start. I just want to win, if he offers the best chance of winning then I would give him another year... but is Henson or Hutch come close to him in preseason and show a much greater upside than him, yuo have to start looking to the future, earlier than later!

Ok, I really should just quit posting on this because it is clear no one want to hear it... but I will give it a try again.

Quincy's play last year showed that he can beat teams that do not respect the pass and committ to the run. We torched teams early in the year when they went for run support. Teams found out that we had no running game and even if Hambrick made it through the front seven, he would trip and fall at the feet of the safety. So they played their safeties back and made us beat them with the run or dink and dunk all day with our speed guys.

There are 3 factors that will effect any QB:

1. His play
2. His teammates play
3. The opposition stategy against them

Of these, number 3 is what changed the most. Quincy did not play as well in the second half, imo, but he was facing teams that were sold out to keep us from beating them with the pass. His teamates payed roughly the same through the year.

It is rather hard, without breaking down each play, to assess his play irrespective of the defense, but my gut is he had some trouble adapting to the new defenses we had against us. Anyone, who tries to analyze this without accounting for all three factors, is just talking.

We have four QB's on the roster right now and every single one of them is a project. Quincy is the furthest along at the moment but is still a year or two out from really seeing what we have. I don't think he gets that second year though, or at least not here, and he will have to show what he has this coming year.

Hostile · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimz31

Carter didn't attack you, some on his side may have, but why not say that the poster isn't worth the grief instead of the other way around?

I say "he" because I am allowed to talk about any other subject and express my opinions. It may not be this way for everyone, but for me at some point who the posters are is irrelevant. I am talking about the mindset.

In order for me not to judge the posters or dislike them I simply blur that grief into a mindset. You see, I have no desire to have enemies or people I dislike. Just isn't worth the stomach acid. I see guys all the time on here who couldn't get along if their lives depended on it.

I don't care to be a party to that ill will. Therefore I simply put the onus on the mindset. Unfortunately, the truth is that he is the focus of the mindset.

Doomsday101 · 05-17-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokejumper

Ok, I really should just quit posting on this because it is clear no one want to hear it... but I will give it a try again.

Quincy's play last year showed that he can beat teams that do not respect the pass and committ to the run. We torched teams early in the year when they went for run support. Teams found out that we had no running game and even if Hambrick made it through the front seven, he would trip and fall at the feet of the safety. So they played their safeties back and made us beat them with the run or dink and dunk all day with our speed guys.

There are 3 factors that will effect any QB:

1. His play
2. His teammates play
3. The opposition stategy against them

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Great then Carter should come out like gang buster this year. Carter had a lot of faults of his own and looking at early numbers Carter was not playing that great even early on. You think the Falcons game was great? or the Jets game? Face it the guy has no consistatcy in his play he does not read and react quickly to what is taking place down field and unless he improves greatly this season his days as QB are numbered.