My Thought on the Howard Deal - Dallas Cowboys Forum

Chuck 54 · 03-24-2005

I think this is a deal that will be made on Draft Day. Howard is worth a first round pick...that's a fact. The guy had more sacks this past year than Ellis has ever had, more than Pittman, Ek, Carver.

If you can get a proven DE with size and sack/pressure productivity who's only a 5 year vet for a first round pick, that's a steal compared with drafting one who has his own problems and may be another bust.

Here's what I think is going on:

We're fully intending to trade down a little with our #20, hopefully getting a 3rd. There are always plenty of teams willing to give up a 3rd rounder to move up a few slots when they see a guy they want still on the board and are afraid to wait another 2 hours. Once we pick up a 3rd round pick, I think we'll offer N.O. the #1 pick which will be 5-8 slots lower than it is now.

N.O. will get their #1 pick...we'll get Howard and a #3.

I could be off base here, but I believe we want Howard desperately as opposed to drafting a DE with the pick anyway. Getting a 3rd round pick is also a priority.

AsthmaField · 03-24-2005

You may be right, but I really don't think we'll give up a 1st for him... I just don't.

I think it'll be a second or nothing.

Eddie · 03-24-2005

I would shoot JJ in the arse if he did that. No more first round picks for established players. Ask Danny Snyder how well that works.

As Joey Galloway if he's worth 2 first rounders.

No, no, no.

I want our picks!!!

Chuck 54 · 03-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsthmaField

You may be right, but I really don't think we'll give up a 1st for him... I just don't.

I think it'll be a second or nothing.

You're probably right, but tell me why we should be so stubborn to not give up a late #1 for a proven DE who can do it all and is young.

Tom Brady was a 6th round pick and is still young too....how many teams would give up a #1 to get him? Once a guy is successful and proven, I don't think teams care what his original draft round was.

I don't see 1 DE in the draft that I'd be as confident in as Howard....not Merriman, Pollock, Spears or anyone else.....(Merriman has the most upside, but I think Spears is the safest pick).

Hollywood Henderson · 03-24-2005

I don't see any way a #1 will be offered.

I do see a #2 or Dat would be my first choice.
Time will tell whats up?

Chuck 54 · 03-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie

I would shoot JJ in the arse if he did that. No more first round picks for established players. Ask Danny Snyder how well that works.

As Joey Galloway if he's worth 2 first rounders.

No, no, no.

I want our picks!!!

I think that's a silly attitude....2 #1's for a receiver like Galloway was stupid. That's our own fault.

Would Freeny be worth a #1?
Would Brady?
Would we swap Greg Ellis for a better, more productive pass rusher? and he was a #8 selection. Look at the players who will be available at DE in the draft...look at the players at any position who will be available in the mid to late 20's of round 1....Is there a single player there who's worth more than an all around DE with size who can produce double digit sacks and pressure on a consistant basis?

You can't get good players for nothing....Howard is not a superstar, but he'd be the best pass rushing DE for Dallas in over a decade....that's worth a #1 in my opinion....the guy is only a 5 year veteran, a proven pass rushing presence with plenty of upside still to develop, not a 33 year old vet.

junk · 03-24-2005

I think Dallas could have him for a second if they wanted him. Personally, I would do it as long as his contract demands were not outrageous. It will be a draft day trade if it happens, but I think it is looking unlikely at this point. Should be done though, IMO.

conner01 · 03-24-2005

howard is no freeney.and he's not worth a 1st rnd pick.he did have more sacks than ellis last year but over the last 4 years ellis has more.i like howard but the reality is he's had 2 very good years.last year, a contract year,and his rookie year.i think he would be an asset but i don't think he's an elite pass rusher and i don't see why we would offer a 1st rnd pick when no one else will either.give them the 2nd and they will take it.just wait and see,they will not get a 1st

AsthmaField · 03-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne_motley

You're probably right, but tell me why we should be so stubborn to not give up a late #1 for a proven DE who can do it all and is young.

My answer to that is pretty complex.

Do I think Howard is worth a late first round pick? Yes, I do. I wouldn't consider him young though. He cerainly isn't old, but he's not young either.

I'm just not sure that Parcells wants a primarily 4-3 end. Maybe he does, but I think he's wanting a versitile defense that can play a lot of 3-4. Players like Merriman, Ware, Pollack, etc. I think that Howard goes a little against what Parcells had in mind to do this offseason, but the opportunity popped up and he's looking.

I think that Parcells will take Howard and derail his plans a bit if he can get what he considers a really good deal for him. I feel like Bill would consider a first rounder as fair compensation... and that wouldn't qualify as a "good deal" to him.

So in a nutshell: Parcells wants to become a more versitile defense and move a little away from the normal 4-3 we played last year. Howard would push us back towards that, but he's a very good player in that defense, so Parcells is willing to look. But he wont pigeonhole his opions unless he gets a deal he just can't refuse... otherwise he'll pass and move more towards the type of players he wants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne_motley

Tom Brady was a 6th round pick and is still young too....how many teams would give up a #1 to get him? Once a guy is successful and proven, I don't think teams care what his original draft round was.

I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne_motley

I don't see 1 DE in the draft that I'd be as confident in as Howard....not Merriman, Pollock, Spears or anyone else.....(Merriman has the most upside, but I think Spears is the safest pick).

I wouldn't be as confident that they could play 4-3 DE as well as Howard either.

However, we wouldn't look at Spears as a 4-3 DE... he'd be a 3-4 DE. It would be a waste, IMO, to take Spears and put him at 4-3 DE... he wouldn't be catalytic in that role.

Merriman and Pollack wouldn't do as well at 4-3 DE either... but I think we'd look at them as primarily OLB's in a 3-4 scheme that could occasionally play 4-3 DE on passing downs. They're way more versitile than Howard and they'd do more on Bill's defense than Howard would... play more roles that is.

Howard is what he is... a good 4-3 DE who could maybe play inside on passing downs. That would be fine to add to the defense instead of say a second round safety... but in the late first, where Pollack could be sitting, I think Parcells would rather have the options he'd bring.

JMO, and I realize I could be way off base... but that's what I'm thinking at the moment.

Hostile · 03-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne_motley

I think this is a deal that will be made on Draft Day. Howard is worth a first round pick...that's a fact. The guy had more sacks this past year than Ellis has ever had, more than Pittman, Ek, Carver.

If you can get a proven DE with size and sack/pressure productivity who's only a 5 year vet for a first round pick, that's a steal compared with drafting one who has his own problems and may be another bust.

Here's what I think is going on:

We're fully intending to trade down a little with our #20, hopefully getting a 3rd. There are always plenty of teams willing to give up a 3rd rounder to move up a few slots when they see a guy they want still on the board and are afraid to wait another 2 hours. Once we pick up a 3rd round pick, I think we'll offer N.O. the #1 pick which will be 5-8 slots lower than it is now.

N.O. will get their #1 pick...we'll get Howard and a #3.

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If we get their 3rd back in the deal I wouldn't hate it. Take Mike Nugent in the 3rd and tell I See Dead People to scram.

Rockytop6 · 03-24-2005

Asthma...
I think you are right on and I agree.

dwmyers · 03-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne_motley

Would we swap Greg Ellis for a better, more productive pass rusher?

In terms of career and longevity, there aren't that many ends better than Ellis. He works hard, gives you everything he has.

Don't believe me? Ask Vonnie Holliday sometime. You know, that guy Green Bay used to claim trumped Greg..

Spontae · 03-24-2005

I believe a more likely scenario would have Dallas dropping down from 11 to 14, picking up a second and offering one of our seconds this year (and perhaps throwing in next year's third, too) for Howard. I simply do not see us trading either No. 1 for Howard, no matter how much we salivate over his past performance at DE.

Chuck 54 · 03-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by conner01

howard is no freeney.and he's not worth a 1st rnd pick.he did have more sacks than ellis last year but over the last 4 years ellis has more.i like howard but the reality is he's had 2 very good years.last year, a contract year,and his rookie year.i think he would be an asset but i don't think he's an elite pass rusher and i don't see why we would offer a 1st rnd pick when no one else will either.give them the 2nd and they will take it.just wait and see,they will not get a 1st

most teams aren't offerring on HOward because they don't have the cap room to sign him...having his rights do you no good if you can't afford him.

Chuck 54 · 03-24-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsthmaField

My answer to that is pretty complex.

Do I think Howard is worth a late first round pick? Yes, I do. I wouldn't consider him young though. He cerainly isn't old, but he's not young either.

I'm just not sure that Parcells wants a primarily 4-3 end. Maybe he does, but I think he's wanting a versitile defense that can play a lot of 3-4. Players like Merriman, Ware, Pollack, etc. I think that Howard goes a little against what Parcells had in mind to do this offseason, but the opportunity popped up and he's looking.

I think that Parcells will take Howard and derail his plans a bit if he can get what he considers a really good deal for him. I feel like Bill would consider a first rounder as fair compensation... and that wouldn't qualify as a "good deal" to him.

[View Full Quote]

YOu make good points, but Howard weighs 285, so he seems to be more the 4-3 end who could also play some 3-4 DE....the guys you mentioned, as you point out, could play 3-4 passrushing OLB, but none of them have shown they can drop into coverage, and most are too small to play 4-3 DE, so unless we are going to an exclusive 3-4 team with them as passrushing OLB's (not likely) where do we play any of the guys we'd draft???