Justin Tuck DE, Notre Dame - Page 3 - Dallas Cowboys Forum

Dough Boy · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cbz40

ABQ, Dough Boy.....you guys have a great debate going here and Both of you are a credit to the board.

OH!!! and by the way.....neither one of you has won me over........So, keep up the excellent discussion.

Sorry for the interuption. Please continue

CB I need your help,

Can you explain the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

I said he has not played LB his whole career. IE, he got moved to DE. Thus, the follow on, "I suspect it's because he was not great at it." That would imply that he has played there, at some point.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I really have no idea what he means by this.

Cbz40 · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dough Boy

CB I need your help,

Can you explain the following:

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I really have no idea what he means by this.

ABQ would need to explain his meaning.

I interpret the statement too mean they tried him at LB and since he had not played the position before it did not work. So they moved him to DE.

Dough Boy · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cbz40

ABQ would need to explain his meaning.

I interpret the statement too mean they tried him at LB and since he had not played the position before it did not work. So they moved him to DE.

Thanks... I just wanted a quick sanity check. I thought I was growing senile for a second.

Cbz40 · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dough Boy

Thanks... I just wanted a quick sanity check. I thought I was growing senile for a second.

You have plenty of years ahead of you before that happens.

**ABQCOWBOY** · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dough Boy

Again, I don't think he is an ideal 4-3 LB, but the question is can he play a 3-4 OLB, and I think the answer is yes. He can be protected in coverage in a 3-4 scheme because you don't know which OLB is dropping into coverage.

I did watch 5 games, and I don't think that makes me a expert on Tuck. Since you offer all this insight on Tuck, how many games did you watch? Again, I don't have to back track. I never said lets draft Tuck in this thread. I just think you are posted non-factual information. Again, I ask the question, Did Tuck not play LB or Did he get beat out?

In any defense, an offense can dictate who has coverage, simply by moving the TE or using the backs in the pattern. Unless your rushing this guy, from a 3-4, on every play, he will have to tackle. Oh, but wait, that's pretty much what I said to start with, isn't it?

I watch ND, damn near every week because it's always on TV here. I am not a fan of ND but I do see them a lot. I have watched this kid on and off for 3 years. I watched a lot of him last year because I watched a lot of Julius Jones. I watched a lot of him this year because I knew we needed a pass rushing End. Basically, I probably see 5 games every year.

Here's what Showcase says about him:

http://www.draftshowcase.com/JustinTuck.htm

Tuck is a pure pass rusher, one of the best in this draft. One of his biggest assets is his first step. He is very quick off the ball and beats offensive linemen out of their stances. He shows good agility and has a variety of ways he can beat pass protectors and get to the quarterback. He is athletic and smart, and knows how to get linemen off balance. In the run game, he has good strength for his size, but has a thinner, wiry frame and needs to add more bulk. At times, he will play too high and give up the leverage battle. Other times, he'll take too much of an upfield rush trying to get the quarterback and will take himself out of the play. He does too much dodging of blocks rather than taking them on and is still a liability against the run. When he gets to the ball carrier, he is a solid tackler. He has decent straight line speed and can track down runners. He has a good motor and goes hard in both pass rushing and in the run game.

Tuck has the athletic ability to be a pass rushing terror. He'll be a situational pass rusher initialy, but he has the frame to add more bulk and become effective as a run stopper. Tuck is possibly a late 1st Round selection, but at this point, he is more of a mid-2nd.

Here's TFY:

http://nfldraft.scout.com/2/326187.html

The Good: Explosive pass rusher that also displays the ability to defend the run. Fast off the edge, plays low with leverage and hard to control. Has excellent balance, tough to knock off his feet and beats blocks on his way to the quarterback. Gets a lot of momentum going up the field but also displays the ability to change direction and pursue from the backside.

The Bad: Stiff and has difficulty redirecting to the action. Not a lineman that immediately alters his angle of attack or displays skill in space.

The Skinny: A top-flight prospect with a great upside for the next level, Tuck is a pass rushing force developing into an impact lineman. Will get better in time as he physically matures, completes his game and a very high pick in the future.

I could post more but there's really no need. I know this player. He's not a LB. He may work in a 34 but only as a pass rusher and he will get isolated.

Besides, we play a 43 as our base. He's a DE.

**ABQCOWBOY** · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dough Boy

Per NFL draft prospects:

His freshman year at Notre Dame, Tuck made an impact as a linebacker, and switched to DE the past two seasons. For teams that play the 3-4, Tuck could have an instant impact as an OLB since he is just two seasons removed from playing that spot.

Really sounds like he sucked at LB to me?

How many games did you watch again?

I surrender, you win... I know when I'm over-matched...

FYI, the sinking feeling you are experiencing is the whole you have dug yourself. And you say I can't read.

He had 6 sacks as a freshman, from the OLB position. So yeah, he made an impact. He also had 47 tackles so do the math, you figure you play maybe 12 games a season? That's only 4 tackles a game. That's not a great deal of production if your the stud LB you make him out to be. Show me one place where it says he's a good LB. Show me one place where it says he can excell at the LB position and not just a pass rusher. Lastly, answer the question I possed earlier. If he's good against the run, why isn't he a 1st round prospect? Why isn't he top 10? If you can tackle, and you can sack the QB, your definatly a blue chip draft prospect. Why do none of the publications you refere to list him as such? Why do most of these publications all say he can't play the run? Lastly, why do you not post links with your posts?

Simple question, once again. Did you ever see Justin Tuck play LB while at ND or are you basing this discussion on what your reading? IE, DE evaluations.

Should I answer or do you want to?

SuspectCorner · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

He shows good agility and has a variety of ways he can beat pass protectors and get to the quarterback.

Gets a lot of momentum going up the field but also displays the ability to change direction and pursue from the backside.

The Bad: Stiff and has difficulty redirecting to the action. Not a lineman that immediately alters his angle of attack or displays skill in space.

so which is it? he's agile and able to change directions or...

he is stiff and has difficulty changing directions.

i think it's pretty obvious why notre dame moved him to DE. he's 6'5" 265 freakin' pounds with speed. witness 13&1/2 sacks season before last.

any more questions?

**ABQCOWBOY** · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by tothewhipbill

so which is it? he's agile and able to change directions or...

he is stiff and has difficulty changing directions.

i think it's pretty obvious why notre dame moved him to DE. he's 6'5" 265 freakin' pounds with speed. witness 13&1/2 sacks season before last.

any more questions?

The purpose of these posts is to show that these evaluations are not consistant. If I've seen a player play, I'm going to base my opinions on what I've seen. Having said that, basically every evaluation you read says the same thing against the run. He doesn't stand up well in the run game.

I stand by what I originally stated. He's a one dimensional player. He's a pass rushing DE. He's not a LB. If you want a pass rusher, he's excellent in that role. If you want a LB, he's not your guy.

After better then 2 hours of this, I'm right back to where I started. I would not draft him in the 1st round. I like him as a Edge rusher. I don't believe he can play LB.

What is not true about what I have been saying all along?

**ABQCOWBOY** · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dough Boy

CB I need your help,

Can you explain the following:

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I really have no idea what he means by this.

As I explained earlier, I never said he didn't play LB at ND. I said he was not a good LB. I am aware of the fact that he moved from LB to DE. He is a natural edge rushing DE.

That is what I was saying with that statement. You took it to mean that I said he never played LB then changed my story or some such nonsense. Thus the "Which is it, A or B" question.

The answer is neither.

I watched him play both positions. I'm simply saying that I have seen him play and no way do I see him as anything other then an Edge Rusher. To imply anything more would be incorrect.

If you say, you didn't understand what I posted, then I'll take you at face value and explain, as I've just done.

I've been pretty clear on what I see Tuck's role as. If you don't agree, then justify your position. Post links to your profiles. Let's read everything they say. I will bet money that they all pretty much say the same thing in regards to his run stopping capabilities.. He's a pass rusher, not a run stopping LB.

SuspectCorner · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

The purpose of these posts is to show that these evaluations are not consistant. If I've seen a player play, I'm going to base my opinions on what I've seen. Having said that, basically every evaluation you read says the same thing against the run. He doesn't stand up well in the run game.

I stand by what I originally stated. He's a one dimensional player. He's a pass rushing DE. He's not a LB. If you want a pass rusher, he's excellent in that role. If you want a LB, he's not your guy.

After better then 2 hours of this, I'm right back to where I started. I would not draft him in the 1st round. I like him as a Edge rusher. I don't believe he can play LB.

What is not true about what I have been saying all along?

i fully realize you are not the author of those scouting reports. my post was not meant to be an assault on you. merely pointing out the contradictions within the reports.

tuck has come out publicly that he would prefer to be utilized as a DE. but i think he can contribute at OLB in 3-4 sets.

however, i think the cowboys would be much more interested in his potential as an edgerusher. me too.

Dough Boy · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

As I explained earlier, I never said he didn't play LB at ND. I said he was not a good LB. I am aware of the fact that he moved from LB to DE. He is a natural edge rushing DE.

That is what I was saying with that statement. You took it to mean that I said he never played LB then changed my story or some such nonsense. Thus the "Which is it, A or B" question.

The answer is neither.

I watched him play both positions. I'm simply saying that I have seen him play and no way do I see him as anything other then an Edge Rusher. To imply anything more would be incorrect.

If you say, you didn't understand what I posted, then I'll take you at face value and explain, as I've just done.

[View Full Quote]

ABQ,

I never said Tuck was a run stopping LB. I never diagreed about him being an undersized DE, I read your post to mean, he has never played LB at ND. If you are sayin they tried and moved him, that's fine.

At the end of the day, Most profiles think he can play OLB in a 3-4 scheme, consistent with what I'm saying. I have seen him play over the past two years at DE in a 4-3 scheme, and I think he can be a OLB ala Terrell Suggs.

To post my draft profiles:
NFL Draft Countdown -
Strengths: Excellent natural athletic ability...Tall and lanky...Explosive speed and quickness...Was very productive and a sack artist...Has a lot of experience against top competition...Is unblockable at times...Getting better every season.

Weaknesses: Undersized...Needs to continue to get bigger and stronger...Improving but still not a force against the run...Needs to show more discipline...Has to continue working on his technique...A possible 'tweener who could project to OLB in the pros, especially in a 3-4 scheme.

Notes: Notre Dame's all-time leader in sacks...Cousin of Adalius Thomas of the Baltimore Ravens...Has made major strides as an all-around player the last couple of years.

On the Clock -
Justin Tuck is the cousin of Baltimore Ravens linebacker Adalius Thomas. He began his career at Notre Dame as a linebacker before moving to defensive end the following year. He picked up five sacks in a reserve role that year and went on to break the teams single season sack record in 2003 with 13 1/2 sacks. He had six sacks this past season, breaking the school's career sack record with 24 1/2. He is one of the best pass rushers in the draft with great quickness and excellent closing speed getting to the quarterback. He has the speed to make plays all over the field but needs to bulk up some and increase his strength to play defensive end at the professional level. He could easily play outside backer in a 3-4 scheme, especially considering the fact that he is a converted linebacker. He is a true leader and was voted most valuable player by his teammates this past season. Durablity is a qustion mark for Tuck. He has had a shoulder injury and a major knee injury which ended his 2003 season prematurely. He has been working to improve his play against the run the past couple seasons but he still has room for improvement in that area. Tuck is an extremely talented player who is still developing as a defensive end. He will most likely be drafted in the top half of the second round but he could make a push to be selected in the latter portion of round one.

Notice the Bold Statement above

NFL.com

Tuck can also perform in a two-point stance as well as drop in coverage in some zone blitz situations. He's a solid tackler, aggressive to get to the ball and will bring his hips and unload on ball carriers. His biggest question is his ability to hold up at the point due to a frame that looks lean in the lower body. Still, he never gives up in pursuit, makes every effort to close rush lanes and has the sudden burst to make opposite field tackles. He has good burst to close and the body control to capture ball carriers in space.

I seem to recall you saying he was not a good tackler and does not play well in space....

Dough Boy · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

As I explained earlier, I never said he didn't play LB at ND. I said he was not a good LB. I am aware of the fact that he moved from LB to DE. He is a natural edge rushing DE.

That is what I was saying with that statement. You took it to mean that I said he never played LB then changed my story or some such nonsense. Thus the "Which is it, A or B" question.

The answer is neither.

I watched him play both positions. I'm simply saying that I have seen him play and no way do I see him as anything other then an Edge Rusher. To imply anything more would be incorrect.

If you say, you didn't understand what I posted, then I'll take you at face value and explain, as I've just done.

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From the Draft Forum

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peterman60

No need to look at the workout numbers, I mean they are if you never seen him play I guess. But after watching a whole season of dreadful ND football Tuck was the only bright spot - came with the pass rush on every single down, no "off downs"

Natedawg44 · 03-25-2005

Can he play?
Do you want him on your team?
Yes or No will suffice don't bore us with the details we have plenty to read now

Dough Boy · 03-25-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

He had 6 sacks as a freshman, from the OLB position. So yeah, he made an impact. He also had 47 tackles so do the math, you figure you play maybe 12 games a season? That's only 4 tackles a game. That's not a great deal of production if your the stud LB you make him out to be. Show me one place where it says he's a good LB. Show me one place where it says he can excell at the LB position and not just a pass rusher. Lastly, answer the question I possed earlier. If he's good against the run, why isn't he a 1st round prospect? Why isn't he top 10? If you can tackle, and you can sack the QB, your definatly a blue chip draft prospect. Why do none of the publications you refere to list him as such? Why do most of these publications all say he can't play the run? Lastly, why do you not post links with your posts?

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I'll answer. He played LB well enough. Also, how many games did you watch. The guy will make a good 3-4 DE. Do you know anything about the 3-4. Based on your above comments, no...

Why is he not a first round prospect - because drafting is an inexact science - something you should know about based on your inability to be factual and consistent.

I think we have beat this to death. I'm not sure how much you've seen Tuck play. Based on your writing, I would say little. Based on your comparisoin vs most draft scouts, I would little. Lastly, playing the run as a LB and playing the run as DE are totally different. To answer your question above - scouts say he dosen't play the run well as a DE.

Not that it matters, but I told you earlier that I watched about 5 ND games last year and 5 this year. Why did I have to post this again.

You want links: Here they go...

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2005/tuck_justin

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/pla...ustintuck.html

http://2005.otcdraft.com/content/pro...JustinTuck.php

Unlike you, I don't have to create a story. Everything I posted I have a link to. Now for you, can you provide that link that supports your contention that Tuck got beat out of his LB spot? How about a link that supports your words, that he is a poor tackler? What about a link that supports him being a liability in coverage and can't play in space?

I can't what for your response on this one.

hendog · 03-26-2005

If he can sack the QB, which apparently he can, I'll take 2 of him!