Dead Money for Skins

[aikemirv]

Does anybody know what the cap hits were for T Candidate and J Trotter? If I remember correctly they both signed big contracts with big bonus money!

[flashback]

The amounts are listed in the Washington Times article. Trotter will count about $4.5M in 2005, and Fiore something like $1.1M Canidate was in the last year of his contract, so whatever bonus is left counts in 2004.

[keds]

There seem to be quite a few teams with a pile of dead cap space. San Fran and San Diego have over 20 million in dead cap space. I'm sure the Redskins are somewhere in that ballpark...

[lkelly]

Didn't the Skins trade for Canidate? If so, I would expect he has no salary cap impact after his release. The Rams would have accounted for any signing bonus at the time they traded him.

[Wheat]

and this is why Cap Hell is such a myth for a lot of teams.

Washington goes and signs replacements for all the guys they just let go. They count for 2 years in one way or another. People scream that 3 years down the road its going to kill them.

Then 3 years later, the NFL raises the Cap more than it was expected....and teams that cut guys early now have that space back to continue the ugly cycle.

Don't tell Peter King or Fat Lenny though.............they seem to never include dead money in the projections.

Trung had no bonus to could against...just his salary.

[DrunkWithPower]

The Redskins before this year had very few high-priced veterans, so it really didn't matter if they let them go early as they had very little pro-rated bonus money to eat away at the cap. This year they've changed their tune a little with the signings of Brunell and Portis, and with the resigning of Arrington (last year?). If they continue signing more heavy-hitters the next couple of years, then they open themselves up to cap issues if any of the players are injured or just plain don't pan out.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Originally Posted by Bufford

and this is why Cap Hell is such a myth for a lot of teams.

Washington goes and signs replacements for all the guys they just let go. They count for 2 years in one way or another. People scream that 3 years down the road its going to kill them.

Then 3 years later, the NFL raises the Cap more than it was expected....and teams that cut guys early now have that space back to continue the ugly cycle.

Don't tell Peter King or Fat Lenny though.............they seem to never include dead money in the projections.

Trung had no bonus to could against...just his salary.

Bufford...if all of that is true...then why did they have to redo Samuels contract twice and working on a third time to help the team out?

It would seem if it works as you say then they would not have to keep asking this guy to redo his contract...and I think Lavars a couple of times...in order to fit under the cap?

In the long run if they would have drafted a decent RB or KR the last few years they would not have had to worry about the high price tags of Canidate and or morton down the road...if they guys worked out they could sign him again...if not then he had a low price tag and no big problem vs the cap.

Sorry....the way they do biz might not have hurt them yet, but IMO it will happen sooner or later and we already seen the strife it is causing with players like Samuels who is tired of taking one for the team over and over because management can not do things the right way.

[BadKarma]

From my view, the way Redskins sign FA's indicates their loyalty is short-term. Their current strategy is to "win now" through continuous restructuring of future contracts.

Stands to reason, the only kind of player that would want to play for them is a guy looking to get the big "payoff" now, knowing he's probably not going to be with the team for long unless he's willing to redo his contract for the team. I would think a player such as Samuels would start to realize this is a perpetual process until he either retires or gets cut.

So the question I have is, why would you continually allocate so much cap space on veterans for the short term while investing so little in the future of your drafts and young players?

Am I missing something here? I don't understand their philosophical approach to being an organization that can sustain a good team for an extended amount of time.

[Wheat]

Originally Posted by BrAinPaiNt

Bufford...if all of that is true...then why did they have to redo Samuels contract twice and working on a third time to help the team out?

It would seem if it works as you say then they would not have to keep asking this guy to redo his contract...and I think Lavars a couple of times...in order to fit under the cap?

In the long run if they would have drafted a decent RB or KR the last few years they would not have had to worry about the high price tags of Canidate and or morton down the road...if they guys worked out they could sign him again...if not then he had a low price tag and no big problem vs the cap.

Sorry....the way they do biz might not have hurt them yet, but IMO it will happen sooner or later and we already seen the strife it is causing with players like Samuels who is tired of taking one for the team over and over because management can not do things the right way.

this isn't unique to any team Brainpaint. Its just how they do it. If they didn't rework Samuels or whoever, they wouldn't of added somebody or extended somebody at a certain time. Its fluid.......numbers change...incentives.....bonuses. If you want to play "near" the cap, then you do stuff like that.

The way that Gibbs is setting it up (he says) is to have a core group of guys signed for a very long time. Lock those guys up. Then you've got your group of role players who come and go.......but nobody can afford to have ALL Probowlers.....so you lock up a few.

You create a cap and most of the teams try to find a way to really get the most out of it. A few teams have the Chemistry and staff together for so long that they can work way under it like Philly.........or AZ who still lost. Proof that it doesn't always work.

When Baltimore won it all. They had a Cap that was extremely close to Washington's. Just the right team at the right time. Coaching, talent, division, injuries......... you can win by doing it in different ways. There isn't ONE formula.

[cowheel]

Originally Posted by Bufford

and this is why Cap Hell is such a myth for a lot of teams.

Washington goes and signs replacements for all the guys they just let go. They count for 2 years in one way or another. People scream that 3 years down the road its going to kill them.

Then 3 years later, the NFL raises the Cap more than it was expected....and teams that cut guys early now have that space back to continue the ugly cycle.

Don't tell Peter King or Fat Lenny though.............they seem to never include dead money in the projections.

Trung had no bonus to could against...just his salary.

The only reason the Skins have supposedly NOT experienced cap hell is because they have sucked and MOST of their signings have been huge busts.
So when it comes time to clear cap space - it doesn't hurt the Skins to have to release these bums.

For example - the Skins go 5-11.
It doesn't hurt them at all to have to get rid of disappointing signees such as Deion Sanders, Trung Canidate, Jeremiah Trotter, etc etc.
They didn't do crap anyway.

But now imagine this...
Suppose by some freak of events that the Skins actually have a great season and either make it to the Super Bowl or come close to it.
Suppose they make it close the season after next.

So in 2006 - when they're head butting the cap.... and these decisions have to be made...it won't be so easy to cut players because they actually performed at a high level and were largely responsible for the Skins winning 12 or so games.

Maybe then - it'll just be hard to just release these guys.

Right now - the Skins suck.
So releasing these guys and recycling them is not hard at all.


Only GOOD teams experience cap hell.

[BrAinPaiNt]

Originally Posted by Bufford

this isn't unique to any team Brainpaint. Its just how they do it. If they didn't rework Samuels or whoever, they wouldn't of added somebody or extended somebody at a certain time. Its fluid.......numbers change...incentives.....bonuses. If you want to play "near" the cap, then you do stuff like that.

The way that Gibbs is setting it up (he says) is to have a core group of guys signed for a very long time. Lock those guys up. Then you've got your group of role players who come and go.......but nobody can afford to have ALL Probowlers.....so you lock up a few.

You create a cap and most of the teams try to find a way to really get the most out of it. A few teams have the Chemistry and staff together for so long that they can work way under it like Philly.........or AZ who still lost. Proof that it doesn't always work.

[View Full Quote]When Baltimore won it all. They had a Cap that was extremely close to Washington's. Just the right team at the right time. Coaching, talent, division, injuries......... you can win by doing it in different ways. There isn't ONE formula.

Well it seems, if Gibbs does what he says, that he is getting rid of the mentality that the skinz have had since danny boy showed up.

That is a step in the right direction.

I also realize that many teams have players that restructure contracts to help the team...but normally it is not the same player over and over...and when it does become the same players over and over then chances are that the team IS in a cap bind and not far away from paying the piper ala what dallas did in the past with some contracts....keep pushing that money back and sooner or later it will get you.

In the current case it seems that Samuels may be getting tired of them always coming to him to do this....but then again to be fair to the skinz...samuels agents are not exactly stand up guys either.

[Wheat]

Originally Posted by BrAinPaiNt

Well it seems, if Gibbs does what he says, that he is getting rid of the mentality that the skinz have had since danny boy showed up.

That is a step in the right direction.

I also realize that many teams have players that restructure contracts to help the team...but normally it is not the same player over and over...and when it does become the same players over and over then chances are that the team IS in a cap bind and not far away from paying the piper ala what dallas did in the past with some contracts....keep pushing that money back and sooner or later it will get you.

In the current case it seems that Samuels may be getting tired of them always coming to him to do this....but then again to be fair to the skinz...samuels agents are not exactly stand up guys either.

yes, you have the understanding without getting emotions involved like Cowheel earlier. He puts Deion Sanders who RETIRED into that group.......a guy who retired because he was afraid of Camp Marty.

5-11 was one season. The other seasons were either 8-8 or 7-9. Just hoovering in the middle...making no gains except Danny's 1st year winning the NFC East. (big deal).

So.................. I think you see this restructuring happening with a lot of younger guys who signed on potential. Samuels has had two down seasons. Was it injuries? Coaching? is he just not that good? We'll see if he rebounds this year. Agents get a lot for their rookies...especially since it might be their only big time contract. Ask Tim Couch about that.

Look at what the Postons are doing all over the league. I can't believe anybody would hire them now.....well, I can. That signing bonus money must be so sweet.