Speculation: FSU and Clemson to big 12?

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by DFWJC

My reasoning for FSU not leaving the ACC didn't have much to do with the current, short-sighted view of what the two conferences football programs are doing. Even then, I don't see much seperation going forward.

I just think, because ACC football has been down for the last several years, many are forgetting the bigger picture.

When is the last time a team wanted to leave the ACC? Overall, it's a very, very good conference.

[View Full Quote]Like I said:

• in the last 30 years, the current Big 12 has 3 national titles in football, while the ACC has 9.
• 2 current Big 12 teams have won titles in the modern era, while FOUR ACC teams have (and 5 have played for one).
• and the ACC has a far better academic rep, ranking number one in the USA, just ahead of the Big 10.
• playing all of your opponents in the same time zone helps too
• and before you diss basketball contributions, keep in mind that teams like UNC and Duke have basketball profit (not revenue, profit) of 17 million.
• the current Big 12 no longer has Nebraska, Texas AM, Colorado, Missouri. --And the foundation of the Big 12 comes from two conferences that also were splintered. Maybe it will change, but for 20 years now this conference has been in constant flux.
• The Big 12 and ACC both have three titles in the last 15 years.
• The ACC has only added solid schools and programs, never lost any in that time frame.
• Even before the Big 12 lost those teams, the ACC had more players in the NFL , by a large margin, than the Big 12. That goes for average per team as well as overall.

The point is, it's not so straight forward. It seems to me that there is no real long-term advantage in FSU and Clemson leaving the ACC unless it was for the SEC.

South Carolina.

The problem is that it's not what has happened in the past as much as it is what will happen in the future. I don't ever see the ACC as a Football Conference. They are Basketball to me and there is nothing wrong with that but it is what it is. Conferences are changing right now because of the proposed playoff system. If you are not in a Football Power Conference, the prevailing opinion is that you will be n the outside looking in. Now, today is really not what is being considered. It's where these conferences will be tomorrow and I think that favors the Big 12. They are Football and they are going to continue to try and support that direction. The ACC, I don't think so.

I think it's important to remember that the drive to leave the ACC for another conference isn't coming from the Big 12. It's coming from FSU. They see their future as limited in the ACC from a Football perspective apparently.

[The30YardSlant]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

South Carolina.

The problem is that it's not what has happened in the past as much as it is what will happen in the future. I don't ever see the ACC as a Football Conference. They are Basketball to me and there is nothing wrong with that but it is what it is. Conferences are changing right now because of the proposed playoff system. If you are not in a Football Power Conference, the prevailing opinion is that you will be n the outside looking in. Now, today is really not what is being considered. It's where these conferences will be tomorrow and I think that favors the Big 12. They are Football and they are going to continue to try and support that direction. The ACC, I don't think so.

I think it's important to remember that the drive to leave the ACC for another conference isn't coming from the Big 12. It's coming from FSU. They see their future as limited in the ACC from a Football perspective apparently.

By your criteria I don't see how the Big XII is anymore of a "football conference" than the ACC. Outside of Florida State, Miami, Texas and OU it's a bunch of historically second and third tier programs that make up the two leagues. Clemson, Virginia Tech and WVU are are all solid, but then there's a large grouping of very average (OSU, Tech, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, etc.) to very bad (ISU, Kansas, Duke, Wake Forest).

IMO, the ACC actually has four very viable programs while the Big XII has only three until TCU proves they can handle this level of competition on a consistent basis.

[DFWJC]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

South Carolina.

The problem is that it's not what has happened in the past as much as it is what will happen in the future. I don't ever see the ACC as a Football Conference. They are Basketball to me and there is nothing wrong with that but it is what it is. Conferences are changing right now because of the proposed playoff system. If you are not in a Football Power Conference, the prevailing opinion is that you will be n the outside looking in. Now, today is really not what is being considered. It's where these conferences will be tomorrow and I think that favors the Big 12. They are Football and they are going to continue to try and support that direction. The ACC, I don't think so.

I think it's important to remember that the drive to leave the ACC for another conference isn't coming from the Big 12. It's coming from FSU. They see their future as limited in the ACC from a Football perspective apparently.

Yeah, SC; it was rhetorical. In other words, it's been 40 years since anyone left...or 20+ years before the Big 12 even existed.

I too will always think of the ACC as being a basketball powerhouse conference. But that's just perception because I am older than some here and recall the day before even FSU, Miami, and VT where in the conference The reality is that they have as many or more historically good football programs as the Big 12 does.

Anyway, what is the Big 12 exactly? Who says they are a football conference? Them? They've only been around since the 90s and 1/3 of the teams that were with them then are now gone.

Anyway, it really makes no difference to me what FSU and Clemson do.
People are saying FSU is the source, but I have yet to see evidence of that other than rumors. I know they do need upgraded facilities.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by The30YardSlant

By your criteria I don't see how the Big XII is anymore of a "football conference" than the ACC. Outside of Florida State, Miami, Texas and OU it's a bunch of historically second and third tier programs that make up the two leagues. Clemson, Virginia Tech and WVU are are all solid, but then there's a large grouping of very average (OSU, Tech, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, etc.) to very bad (ISU, Kansas, Duke, Wake Forest).

IMO, the ACC actually has four very viable programs while the Big XII has only three until TCU proves they can handle this level of competition on a consistent basis.

I think that the question of what has been accomplished in each conference is a bit nebulous. If you look at the ACC, they will never be a Football Conference. If we look at the ACC as a whole, they absolutely have a good base of Football schools but the question going forward is, will they be focused on Football going forward. Again, I believe that the focus of the ACC will never be Football. However, the Focus of the Big 12 will be Football for the foreseeable future. I just really believe that the ACC is going to have issues getting into a Super Conference situation because that is really about Football and not about Basketball. It's not where they have been or even where they are today. It's about putting yourself in a Conference that is going to allow you to be considered for one of those 4 or 6 teams (or whatever the number happens to be) that get to the playoffs. Will the ACC expand with an eye towards putting football first? I don't think so. The Big 12 will.

As far as TCU is concerned, they are 47-5 over the past 4 seasons and they aren't just playing scrubs. Baylor, BYU, Boise last year, Wisconsin, Utah, BYU, Baylor and Oregon St. in 10. Virginia, Clemson, BYU, Utah and Boise in 09. Boise, Utah, BYU, OU and Stanford in 08. They are plenty good enough to play in any conference in America IMO. I think they can be considered as a top Football Program.

I would also say that WV is a program that could play in any conference in the Country. They are 70-20 since 05 with Bowl wins over Clemson, UNC, OU and GTech since 05.

I think that if we looked at Conference Strength over the last few years, the Big 12 would be ranked much better then would the ACC. I also don't know that I would list Miami with Texas, OU and FSU. Since 2006, Miami is only 41-35 with a bowl record of 2-3. Each of their two bowl wins were against Nevada. To me, they are not a power house football program any longer.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by DFWJC

Yeah, SC; it was rhetorical. In other words, it's been 40 years since anyone left...or 20+ years before the Big 12 even existed.

I too will always think of the ACC as being a basketball powerhouse conference. But that's just perception because I am older than some here and recall the day before even FSU, Miami, and VT where in the conference The reality is that they have as many or more historically good football programs as the Big 12 does.

Anyway, what is the Big 12 exactly? Who says they are a football conference? Them? They've only been around since the 90s and 1/3 of the teams that were with them then are now gone.

Anyway, it really makes no difference to me what FSU and Clemson do.
People are saying FSU is the source, but I have yet to see evidence of that other than rumors. I know they do need upgraded facilities.

If I look at the ACC, I really only see VaTech as the loan school with a good football program over the last several years. In 2006, they were 11-3 but they lost to GTech, Georgia and BC. They beat Cincy but they were 8-5 that year and lost to every good team on their schedule.

In 2007, they were 11-3 but again, they lost to LSU, BC and Kansas. They beat Miami and FSU who were both terrible. FSU lost to Kentucky in a Bowl Game that year.

2008, again a good record 10-4 but lost to ECarolina, FSU, BC and Miami. None of those teams were very good but they did have good wins against BC, Cincy and Nebraska. Going to say that even though the record was worse, this was a better VaTech team.

2009- 3 with loses against Bama, GTech and UNC. Beat a 6 loss Tennessee team in the Bowl game, Miami and Nebraska.

2010 11-3. Lost to Boise, James Madison and Stanford in the Bowl. Beat FSU, NCSt. and that's really about it.

2011 11-3. Again, Lost to Clemson twice, lost to Michigan in a Bowl.

They are, IMO, the best football program in the ACC but to be honest, they don't play a tough schedule. 10 of those games are gimmie games every year. It's hard to know how good they really are.

Even Florida State has not been a great team since 2006. They are recruiting much better and I do believe that they are on the rise but honestly, they are between a 6 and 4 loss team consistently since 2006.

I just don't see the ACC as anywhere near the quality of Football Conference as the Big 12 and I think Power Rankins prove that.

[Joe Rod]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

If I look at the ACC, I really only see VaTech as the loan school with a good football program over the last several years. In 2006, they were 11-3 but they lost to GTech, Georgia and BC. They beat Cincy but they were 8-5 that year and lost to every good team on their schedule.

In 2007, they were 11-3 but again, they lost to LSU, BC and Kansas. They beat Miami and FSU who were both terrible. FSU lost to Kentucky in a Bowl Game that year.

2008, again a good record 10-4 but lost to ECarolina, FSU, BC and Miami. None of those teams were very good but they did have good wins against BC, Cincy and Nebraska. Going to say that even though the record was worse, this was a better VaTech team.

2009- 3 with loses against Bama, GTech and UNC. Beat a 6 loss Tennessee team in the Bowl game, Miami and Nebraska.

2010 11-3. Lost to Boise, James Madison and Stanford in the Bowl. Beat FSU, NCSt. and that's really about it.
[View Full Quote]
2011 11-3. Again, Lost to Clemson twice, lost to Michigan in a Bowl.

They are, IMO, the best football program in the ACC but to be honest, they don't play a tough schedule. 10 of those games are gimmie games every year. It's hard to know how good they really are.

Even Florida State has not been a great team since 2006. They are recruiting much better and I do believe that they are on the rise but honestly, they are between a 6 and 4 loss team consistently since 2006.

I just don't see the ACC as anywhere near the quality of Football Conference as the Big 12 and I think Power Rankins prove that.

Honestly, I would say that it is a regional thing. Most people over in the heart of ACC Country don't think the Big Twelve is anything more than Texas, Oklahoma and their tag alongs. They see a conference was just raided by three others conferences and almost fell entirely apart.

I'm not saying that I feel that way, because I have lived in Texas as well as the East Coast and I know how passionate Okie State, Baylor and Texas Tech fans are. Fine teams in the conference and TCU and West Virginia were solid additions.

All I am doing is pointing out the perspective. I'm sure we will see how FSU feels soon enough.

[Aikbach]

First I've heard of this, no knowledge of the matter to speak of or offer I'm afraid.

[rkell87]

@kbohls Texas, Texas Tech school officials dismiss rumors of FSU/Clem possible exit to Big 12. "First I've heard of it," one high-up says

[rkell87]

Dan Wetzel ‏ @DanWetzel
I can add to one part of @ChipBrownOB story on FSU/Big12. FSU officials have, at least internally, discussed potential for own TV network

[DFWJC]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

If I look at the ACC, I really only see VaTech as the loan school with a good football program over the last several years. In 2006, they were 11-3 but they lost to GTech, Georgia and BC. They beat Cincy but they were 8-5 that year and lost to every good team on their schedule.

In 2007, they were 11-3 but again, they lost to LSU, BC and Kansas. They beat Miami and FSU who were both terrible. FSU lost to Kentucky in a Bowl Game that year.

2008, again a good record 10-4 but lost to ECarolina, FSU, BC and Miami. None of those teams were very good but they did have good wins against BC, Cincy and Nebraska. Going to say that even though the record was worse, this was a better VaTech team.

2009- 3 with loses against Bama, GTech and UNC. Beat a 6 loss Tennessee team in the Bowl game, Miami and Nebraska.

2010 11-3. Lost to Boise, James Madison and Stanford in the Bowl. Beat FSU, NCSt. and that's really about it.

[View Full Quote]2011 11-3. Again, Lost to Clemson twice, lost to Michigan in a Bowl.

They are, IMO, the best football program in the ACC but to be honest, they don't play a tough schedule. 10 of those games are gimmie games every year. It's hard to know how good they really are.

Even Florida State has not been a great team since 2006. They are recruiting much better and I do believe that they are on the rise but honestly, they are between a 6 and 4 loss team consistently since 2006.

I just don't see the ACC as anywhere near the quality of Football Conference as the Big 12 and I think Power Rankins prove that.

In the previous post you say the performance is nebulous and that the ACC will always be a hoops conference.

Then you proceed to take a very narrow snapshot of performance and try to make that relevant. Everyone knows the ACC has been down recently. But I don't think anyone feels that that this tiny window of time is a permanant thing.

The data is either important or it isn't...can't have it both ways ABQ.

For example, as you stated, Florida State has not really been all that good since 2006...as if they won't be a super power again real soon.
Well, the last two years they've had crazy good recruiting classes and Jimbo Fisher has them heading toward powerhouse status again.

Anyway, time will tell on this. We could go back and forth for ages and not get anywhere.

I do know that what JoeRod said in a previous post about the ACCs perception of the Big 12 is true. I'm not saying that it's deserved, but that is how they feel. Several good team/programs have left the Big 12 recently.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by DFWJC

In the previous post you say the performance is nebulous and that the ACC will always be a hoops conference.

Then you proceed to take a very narrow snapshot of performance and try to make that relevant. Everyone knows the ACC has been down recently. But I don't think anyone feels that that this tiny window of time is a permanant thing.

The data is either important or it isn't...can't have it both ways ABQ.

For example, as you stated, Florida State has not really been all that good since 2006...as if they won't be a super power again real soon.
Well, the last two years they've had crazy good recruiting classes and Jimbo Fisher has them heading toward powerhouse status again.

Anyway, time will tell on this. We could go back and forth for ages and not get anywhere.

[View Full Quote]I do know that what JoeRod said in a previous post about the ACCs perception of the Big 12 is true. I'm not saying that it's deserved, but that is how they feel. Several good team/programs have left the Big 12 recently.

Actually, I think I said that I believe FSU is a program on the rise. I don't think I'm trying to have it both ways here. I went to FSU so I do follow them fairly closely. They are not my first love but I do want them to succeed. They have not been good these past several years and that's pretty much a fact. You just need to look at there record and I think it makes it's own statement. I would love FSU to come join the Big 12. If they don't, then they don't but the real issue here from my point of view is that leaving the ACC is coming from the FSU side. It's not something that somebody else is carrying the flag on.

How far back do you think we should go with the ACC? I think 6 years is plenty. Programs rise and fall in a period of 6 years. That's plenty of time to judge the success of Football Programs in any Conference IMO. I don't think it's unfair but doesn't really matter. Time will tell the tale.

[rkell87]

from warchant who is trying to get a FB and twitter campaign started








There is obviously a lot of discussion among our fan base in favor of FSU leaving the ACC, or at least exploring our options. However, sitting around on a message board and complaining about it doesn't get the job done. If you want to effect change, you have to affect the minds of the decision makers. If you will think back to a year or so ago, the decision makers at both Texas A&M and Missouri did not want to leave the Big 12. The reason they both ended up leaving the Big 12 is because of outcry from fans and alumni to change their position. Who are the decision makers you might ask? Here is where you can start:


Eric Barron, University President: president@mailer.fsu.edu (850) 644-1085

Andy Haggard, Chairman of the Board of Trustees: WAH@haggardlawfirm.com 305-446-5700

Susie Busch-Transou, Vice-Chairman of the Board of Trustees: stransou@tallbud.com 850-539-2565

Allen Bense, Board of Trustees: agb@gaccontractors.com 850-769-3477

Ed Burr, Board of Trustees: eburr@greenpointellc.com 904-998-8841

Dr. Joe Camps, Board of Trustees: nfabiano@seuc.com 850-309-0400

Emily Fleming Duda, Board of Trustees: tracy@duda.com 407-365-6336

Joe Gruters, Board of Trustees: joegruters@gmail.com 941-747?0500

Mark Hillis, Board of Trustees: markhillis64@yahoo.com 850-524-2035

James Kinsey, Board of Trustees: jkinsey@kinseysells.com 239-939-1367 ext. 200

Sandra Lewis, Board of Trustees: slewis@fsu.edu 850-644-8409

Peggy Rolando, Board of Trustees: mrolando@shutts.com 305-379-9144

Brent Sembler, Board of Trustees: Brent.Sembler@sembler.com 727-544-4244

Rueben Stokes, Board of Trustees: fsusgapresident@admin.fsu.edu 850-644-1811

Randy Spetman, FSU AD: rspetman@admin.fsu.edu (850) 644-1079


Those are your main decision makers at the university folks.

If you want to see FSU in a new conference, you must change the minds of the decision makers. That means you need to email and call all of them and express your opinion. Do so respectfully. Let them know that you support FSU and want what is best for it. Do not threaten to withhold money from the university if we do not switch conferences, but if you do give money to the university, let them know. Oh and it can't stop with just you. You must email and call everyone of your friends who are Noles and convince them to do the same. Use social media, whether it be Facebook or Twitter and let the world know how you feel about what FSU is doing and where we should do.

I am not personally advocating staying in the ACC or leaving at this point. However, I know there are many of you who feel passionately on this subject. If you feel passionately about this subject, you have the ability to effect real change at your university. Don't just sit around and talk about it on Warchant, but empower your fellow Noles and the decision makers who matter to understand your point of view. That doesn't mean you will necessarily get your way. However, if you want change to happen, you need to step up and take charge. ~ DemocraticNole

[DFWJC]

Six years is nowhere near long enough to establish how good a program is, imo. It only says how good a team has been for a 6 years..nothing really. 20-30 years maybe.

It doest matter anyway...no big deal.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by DFWJC

Six years is nowhere near long enough to establish how good a program is, imo. It only says how good a team has been for a 6 years..nothing really. 20-30 years maybe.

It doest matter anyway...no big deal.

Your opinion I suppose. Me, if within 6 years, a program has not shown significant improvement, I'm looking for changes. That could be coaching or it could be conference changes. You could continue to wait but if you do and circumstance change significantly, as in, a new playoff system with a new conference alignment with four newly formed super conferences, for example, you could find yourself on the outside looking in if you are not in the right position to take advantage of that.

I think it is less then responsible to just do nothing. You must understand what options you have and act upon them for the good of the University.

While I think it was foolish for TAMU to head to the SEC, I am sure that they did it because they felt like it was in the best interests of the University long term. Would be the same line of thought for FSU IMO.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by rkell87

There is obviously a lot of discussion among our fan base in favor of FSU leaving the ACC, or at least exploring our options. However, sitting around on a message board and complaining about it doesn't get the job done. If you want to effect change, you have to affect the minds of the decision makers. If you will think back to a year or so ago, the decision makers at both Texas A&M and Missouri did not want to leave the Big 12. The reason they both ended up leaving the Big 12 is because of outcry from fans and alumni to change their position. Who are the decision makers you might ask? Here is where you can start:

Actually, I'm pretty sure that they both did. Both had ample opportunity to stay and both opted to leave.