To all the people saying Witten is on the downside of his career...

[DFWJC]

Originally Posted by jimnabby

How does that refute the idea that he's on the downside of his career?

That's what I was thinking.

Unless someone says Witten is no longer great, there's no problem with saying his very best year is probabaly behind him.
The guy could still get 1000 yards and mutilple TDs yet be past his absolute peak.

[Seven]

I'm gonna say it. No one can deny that Witty has an issue with moving forward after contact. He used to be a bull. We've all seen him come up three inches short and scratched our heads.


This does not take away from his greatness or what he's done for this team. it's just the subtle wearing down of a football player. That's life.


I still see him crawling on all fours off of the field with a busted jaw and blood pouring out of his mouth. Shows up to practice a day later and no pain pills.

[SDCowboy85]

Originally Posted by joseephuss

What do you mean not just against himself? Your statement of him not trying hard and going down easily was a comparison of just him from now to previous years.

But since you asked. Witten ranked 5th among TEs in YAC behind Gronk, Hernandez, Celek and Graham in 2011 with 358 yards. That is pretty typical production for him. In 2007 he finished 1st among tight ends with 382 yards.

2008 5th 330 yards
2009 4th 407 yards
2010 3rd 363 yards

So his YAC is right about where I also have him ranked as a TE. I have him at 5-6.

[TheSport78]

Originally Posted by CowboyMike

Let's take a look at all of them, then, as far as how these tight ends fit into the new "passing league."

Career Averages per Season (*Discounting shortened rookie years due to not starting (Witten, Finley) or hold outs (Davis), plus one injury shortened season in the case of Finley)
Witten: 82 rec, 945 yds, 11.4 yds/rec, 5 TDs
Davis: 57 rec, 707 yds, 12.5 yds/rec, 6.4 TDs
Finley: 55 rec, 721 yds, 13.1 yds/rec, 6.5 TDs
Hernandez: 62 rec, 736 yds, 11.9 yds/rec, 6.5 TDs

2011 Seasons
Witten: 79 rec, 942 yds, 11.9 yds/rec, 5 TDs
Davis: 67 rec, 792 yds, 11.8 yds/rec, 6 TDs
Finley: 55 rec, 767 yds, 13.9 yds/rec, 8 TDs
Hernandez: 79 rec, 910 yds, 11.5 yds/rec, 7 TDs

[View Full Quote]Some notes:

• None of the other players have had a 1000 yard season. Witten has had 3.
• Davis has said himself that the tight end he tries to emulate is Jason Witten.
• I'll admit, Hernandez had a pretty remarkable year last year in comparison to Witten statistically, as they were pretty close in every category. However, one must consider that while Hernandez is the second TE on his team, he's actually the 2nd or 3rd passing option next to Welker and Gronk, just like Witten is 2nd or 3rd next to Austin and Bryant. Hernandez is also rarely asked to block, as Gronk handles those duties, while Witten stays in to block a decent percentage of the time.
• I was thinking these guys would have something over Witten regarding his one weakness: touchdowns. However, they ended up being pretty similar in numbers. They do all average 1 more TD per season than Witten, while he has them on yards and receptions.
• Both Finley and Hernandez have missed games due to injury in the last three years. Davis hasn't missed a start in the last 4 years. Witten hasn't missed a game since his broken jaw his rookie year, having started every game in the last 8 years.

Taking these stats, it sure looks like Witten is the one that's best suited for "a passing league." In regards to his blocking declinging, Pro Football Focus ranked him #1 in run blocking only a year ago. Putting his superiority in receiving plus his blocking, I'll take him over any of the others.

At this point, the only TE I would take over Witten in the league is Gronkowski, who absolutely dominated in receiving and run blocking last year, although his attitude makes me hesitant. Witten's intagibles might make them even in my book. Gonzales is way too old and Graham is a heavy wide receiver, not a true tight end.

It's about upside, man. Witten has certainly peaked career-wise, and he's definitely still one of the most respected tight ends in the league, but other guys are putting up similar numbers with similar production, and they're much younger.

[joseephuss]

Originally Posted by SDCowboy85

So his YAC is right about where I also have him ranked as a TE. I have him at 5-6.

Still doesn't support your claim that he doesn't try any more.

Which 5 guys do you have ranked above Witten?

[SDCowboy85]

Originally Posted by joseephuss

Still doesn't support your claim that he doesn't try any more.

Which 5 guys do you have ranked above Witten?

I never said he doesn't try anymore. I said he seems to go down easily now and he's slow, as others have said in here. I still think he's a great player but just that he's starting to fall behind the new mold for TE's. As for who I have above him, I already listed them.

[joseephuss]

Originally Posted by SDCowboy85

I never said he doesn't try anymore. I said he seems to go down easily now and he's slow, as others have said in here. I still think he's a great player but just that he's starting to fall behind the new mold for TE's. As for who I have above him, I already listed them.

Sure you did.

Originally Posted by SDCowboy85

This is what's bothered me the most. If there's anyone even close to him, he'll just go down. He doesn't fight anymore. I don't know what happened to the bloody nose Witten. And it's not that Witten isn't still a great TE. It's just, unfortunately for him, the TE position happened to change radically while he was still playing.

Originally Posted by SDCowboy85

Gronk, Graham, Gates, Davis, and maybe Gonzalez. So I have Witten currently top 5-6.

Gates and Gonzalez? Witten has out produced both guys the last couple of years and is younger than both. Davis is only 2 years younger than Witten and Witten has out produced him, too. And I think Witten will continue to out produce Davis, Gates and Gonzalez.

[SDCowboy85]

Originally Posted by joseephuss

Sure you did.

Maybe I worded that poorly but I didn't mean he doesn't try. There's few out there that fight for the catch like he does. Once he has the ball though, he's slow (which has nothing to do with trying hard) and often seems to just go down instead of fighting for yardage.

[WV Cowboy]

Instead of yards after catch, .. what about yards after contact.

That is where Witten has changed.

[CowboyMike]

Originally Posted by TheSport78

It's about upside, man. Witten has certainly peaked career-wise, and he's definitely still one of the most respected tight ends in the league, but other guys are putting up similar numbers with similar production, and they're much younger.

I don't see how they're putting up similar numbers. Witten is still blowing them out of the water in regards to receptions and yards.

Witten may have peaked physically, but he's shown no signs of slowing down statistically. He's built a career on consistency. He's 30, which for tight ends and receivers are more mid to late primes rather than entering a decline. Gonzales has stayed consistent statistically and he's 36. There's nothing showing Witten can't remain just as productive for another 4-5 years.

[Risen Star]

Originally Posted by CowboyMike

So you guys would sacrifice the blocking ability and complete TE in Jason Witten for pass catchers like Davis, Hernandez, and Finley? Not to mention probably better character and leadership in Witten.

I understand you're trading age for youth, but you'd really prefer them over Witten right now?

Yes..

[GroundUp]

Originally Posted by jobberone

Wow. I don't know what your definition of elite is but I'd say Romo, Ware and Witten are elite players. I suspect you might be able to add Carter to that list in the next 24 months. And Smith might make that grade as well. Not sure about Lee but he may push the envelope. Bryant and Austin could as well. It's too early to talk about Claiborne. Murray could step into the picture as well.

That enough for you?

I agree we have more 'elite' level players or players with the capability to be 'elite'. Question though, you are not sure about Sean Lee but think Carter may be able to make the list in 2 yrs? I got no problem with the hopes for Carter, but Lee has shown that he has it, I think he's almost as sure a thing to become elite as we have on the team along with Dez and T. Smith(of course not including players like Romo, Ware and Witten, whom I already count among the elite).

[GroundUp]

Originally Posted by TheFinisher

+1

(tenchar)

V. Davis is insane!

[TheSport78]

Originally Posted by CowboyMike

I don't see how they're putting up similar numbers. Witten is still blowing them out of the water in regards to receptions and yards.

Witten may have peaked physically, but he's shown no signs of slowing down statistically. He's built a career on consistency. He's 30, which for tight ends and receivers are more mid to late primes rather than entering a decline. Gonzales has stayed consistent statistically and he's 36. There's nothing showing Witten can't remain just as productive for another 4-5 years.

I'm with you on some of this. If we're talking about who the most COMPLETE tight end is in the NFL, Witten is right there in the conversation. He just does everything well, but he's not an elite pass-catching tight end like Graham, Gronkowski or Davis. It depends on the system and what's required of the tight end position.

[CowboyMike]

Originally Posted by TheSport78

I'm with you on some of this. If we're talking about who the most COMPLETE tight end is in the NFL, Witten is right there in the conversation. He just does everything well, but he's not an elite pass-catching tight end like Graham, Gronkowski or Davis. It depends on the system and what's required of the tight end position.

How do you quantify that Davis is an elite pass catching tight end but Witten isn't? Look at the statistics I showed you. Davis has never come close to Witten's pass catching numbers. If you took Davis over Witten, you'd actually be downgrading in terms of production, plus Davis is only 2 years younger than Witten.

And no one other than Gonzo has ever put up Witten numbers consistently. Remember, Witten and Gates ushered in this new breed of pass catching Tight Ends.