It's Time to Play Everybody's Favorite Game... The Blame Game

[arglebargle]

Originally Posted by Kingsmith88

No one said he wasn't going to be drafted. I said he was a reach and taken two rounds to early, but don't let the facts get in the way carry on.

This, despite the fact that the Raiders did indeed draft a mobile QB just 6 picks later?

[arglebargle]

Originally Posted by junk

This is just one case of many. It just happens to be the one being discussed at the moment and one of the most visible because we received direct confirmation from the scout himself that this is exactly what happened.

If this is as you laid out, do you think Jerry learned anything from it? Has it happened again? Single screw up vs on-going pattern? Risk vs Reward?

[superpunk]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab

Wow. Jerry drafted Ware because he read a Gosselin report? I have a hard time believing that.

If it's true, we're worse off than I thought.

Originally Posted by Hostile

We drafted Ware because of Jeff Ireland more than any other reason.

Interesting article on the painful-to-look-at dallascowboys.com website today.

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/bryan_broaddus.cfm?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPag e=BlogViewPost&userid=6bcb2f13-94c9-4056-b908-755aaaa70f12&plckPostId=Blog%3a6bcb2f13-94c9-4056-b908-755aaaa70f12Post%3a7537e5d6-c209-4213-abfb-2b390ce613ff&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=b logDest

To be honest, I remember sitting there looking at Parcells the whole time wondering what was going through his mind? He showed no emotion as each selection went off the board. Finally, we got to our selection at 11 and Jerry announced the direction we were going, which brought smiles to everyone's face with the exception of the head coach, who was still silent. It didn't surprise me that Bill was upset. He was used to getting his way, but Jerry made the call for Ware. Merriman's career started off outstanding, but we all know where it has gone since.

[junk]

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=138

Originally Posted by Hostile

It has been written into each of their contracts. That isn't out of thin air. That is right out of Jerry's festering gob.

Originally Posted by Hostile

That isn't written into a contract. That is a comment.

Any links? I found a couple of things.

"We stayed up to 2 o'clock last night and we talked about old times and new times," Switzer said of a meeting with Jones. "We talked about personnel decisions. We will work together but Jerry has the final say. It's in the contract. Nothing has changed. I say to the fans, get ready to win, because we're going to do it, baby!"

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/31/sp...ted=all&src=pm

With Johnson gone, Jones has taken complete control over personnel decisions. He wants it made clear that this is his team. Switzer says he has no problem with that.

"I've always liked Jerry," said Switzer, who was an assistant at the University of Arkansas when Jones and Johnson were players there. "Through the years, I've always been able to get along with everybody I've worked for. I'm glad he's as involved as he is.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...8&slug=1927497

[Hostile]

Originally Posted by junk

This is just one case of many. It just happens to be the one being discussed at the moment and one of the most visible because we received direct confirmation from the scout himself that this is exactly what happened.

Wondering when we're going to hear about these other "many" draft issues.

[junk]

Originally Posted by Hostile

Wondering when we're going to hear about these other "many" draft issues.

No comment on the previous post? I suspect this is just hand waving, but I'll play.

Originally Posted by Hostile

What I find amazing is that 1 Draft pick defines 23 years of drafting.

Where should we start? This team has endured plenty of draft blunders. It isn't like Quincy was some isolated incident.

2009 perhaps? That whole draft was a hot mess.

Shante Carver - Wolf had a 5th round grade on him

Tony Dixon, Dwayne Goodrich,etc. The list goes on and on.

Even 2008 isn't looking that hot anymore. That should be the draft class that forms the core of your team. Jenkins is gone after the season, Felix seems to be a situational guy who has yet to eclipse 1,000 yards in a season. Martellus Bennett?

Are we really debating whether Dallas has screwed up more than 1 draft pick in 23 years?

The last couple of years look good. But, it's early, 2002 and 2008 looked good initially too.

[Hostile]

Originally Posted by junk

No comment on the previous post? I suspect this is just hand waving, but I'll play.



Where should we start? This team has endured plenty of draft blunders. It isn't like Quincy was some isolated incident.

2009 perhaps? That whole draft was a hot mess.

Shante Carver - Wolf had a 5th round grade on him

Tony Dixon, Dwayne Goodrich,etc. The list goes on and on.

Even 2008 isn't looking that hot anymore. That should be the draft class that forms the core of your team. Jenkins is gone after the season, Felix seems to be a situational guy who has yet to eclipse 1,000 yards in a season. Martellus Bennett?

Are we really debating whether Dallas has screwed up more than 1 draft pick in 23 years?

The last couple of years look good. But, it's early, 2002 and 2008 looked good initially too.

Pick a team. Any team.

[Mr_Bill]

Originally Posted by Kingsmith88

The first sentence was a question. The last was illustrating Jerry's spin to justify the reach.

That's not even close to how it reads. Here is the relevant last part of your quote again:

He traded down, gathered a bunch of picks, then traded them back away moving up to get Carter when he got scared Al Davis or Dennis Green wanted him.

Since the Cowboys actually did all that trading, are you trying to argue that Jones traded back up so that he could spin it later? I doubt that even you believe that. I'm pretty sure that not too many others will.

Since I watched that draft, I am fairly certain that the trade back up actually happened and was not just something that Jerry made up later on.

[Mr_Bill]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab

Mr Bill, can't you see that you are literally dreaming up ways to justify this terrible decision?

And no, it wasn't just a case of "Everyone misses on draft picks." It was the process. This was a case of one man seeking out the tiny minority to justify what he wanted to do. The vast majority of the scouts were not in favor of this guy. Why even have scouts if you're going to ignore them and listen to one person who agrees with you?

And I don't think this is a case of listening to his college coach, either. That's a bad way to do business in the first place, because certain coaches like a Butch Davis will claim that everyone is great. But the point is, Jerry wanted to take The Q and if it had been someone else, like some other scout, that's who he would have listened to.

[View Full Quote]Funny, we hear all the time that decisions are made by consensus. Yet this was the exact opposite.

And on top of that, this wasn't just a talent issue. And it wasn't a case of money changing a kid. Quincy didn't change at all. He was a talented cokehead in college, and he remained a talented cokehead in the pros.

I'm sure Jerry thought he could reform him just like he did Pacman and TO and others, but of course he couldn't. This was another case of Jerry PT Barnuming himself.

I have asked these questions before. I don't mind asking them again.

If it's such a bad idea to consult with college coaches about a draft pick, why do teams do it?

Since they do do it, why bother, if they are not going to take any action on the information gathered?

Personally, I believe it is imperative to talk to them in such instances. I also believe that if they do not take those talks into consideration, they are complete fools who enjoy wasting time.

Some of your other arguments have merit. I don't believe, however, that Jerry thought that he could reform those players. I believe he thought that Calvin Hill and his staff would make a difference. Obviously, that has not worked well. In fact, I can't think of an instance where it has. Calvin probably has influence over those players who are ready to mature. Otherwise, it seems to have been a waste of resources, resulting in a waste of time and cap space.

[Mr_Bill]

Originally Posted by Hostile

No one can see how money will change a kid. I didn't want Quincy at all because I prefer pocket passers, and I feel we reached for him. But I am not going to pretend he wasn't going to be drafted when I know good and well that he was going to be. What I find amazing is that 1 Draft pick defines 23 years of drafting. No, it defines 2001 when the trio making decisions was Larry, Jerry, and Dave Campo. We're not in that era anymore. I think we should be able to move past it. I have my doubts some fans ever will.

Since I have been wasting an inordinate amount of time on this subject, I decided to waste even more, and looked up the 2001 draft of quarterbacks.

Vick and Brees were the first two, and are the only ones who succeeded as starters. Quincy was next. It can also be argued that he achieved more than the rest. Following Carter were Marques Tuiasosopo, Chris Weinke, Sage Rosenfels, Jesse Palmer, Mike McMahon, A.J. Feeley, Josh Booty, and Josh Heupel.

Carter played in 38 games, starting 34. His record in those 34 was 18-16-0.

The following 8 QBs in that draft played in 151 games, started 69, and had a combined record for those starts of 19-59-0.

That is not to say that drafting Quincy Carter was a good decision. It most certainly was not. In fact, we probably would have been much better off waiting a while and drafting Rosenfels. At least we would have had a decent backup for several years.

[junk]

Originally Posted by Hostile

Pick a team. Any team.

Sure, every team has bad picks. Even the best personnel people have bad picks. The Broaddus story about Parcells wanting Spears initially and Merriman over Ware is a great example of that. Belichick going with Maroney and Chad Jackson. We could find examples for every GM in the league.

However, the good ones have more good than bad and have a track record of consistently finding those good ones more often than not.

Jerry hasn't shown that ability and there are a bunch of things that could be contributing factors to that. He doesn't have a background in scouting or personnel. He's never done it as a job where he has to evaluate players, report to a superior, present his case and get feedback. He appears to be impulsive. He appears to be a bit of a gambler. He listens to way too many people and doesn't appear to be able to filter good information from bad information. He appears to overrate the talent on the roster. On and on and on......and the results on the field show those shortcomings. 1 playoff win in 15 years and the team's only real success under his watch has been with teams built by men with strong personnel backgrounds/skills.

We've gone around and around on this. Personally, I think you are letting emotion play way to big of a role in it. I don't think this blind defense of all things Jerry can be driven by any sort of logic. However, I am surprised you'd let it drive you to make things up to try to justify it.

[CCBoy]

Originally Posted by Mr_Bill

Since I have been wasting an inordinate amount of time on this subject, I decided to waste even more, and looked up the 2001 draft of quarterbacks.

Vick and Brees were the first two, and are the only ones who succeeded as starters. Quincy was next. It can also be argued that he achieved more than the rest. Following Carter were Marques Tuiasosopo, Chris Weinke, Sage Rosenfels, Jesse Palmer, Mike McMahon, A.J. Feeley, Josh Booty, and Josh Heupel.

Carter played in 38 games, starting 34. His record in those 34 was 18-16-0.

The following 8 QBs in that draft played in 151 games, started 69, and had a combined record for those starts of 19-59-0.

That is not to say that drafting Quincy Carter was a good decision. It most certainly was not. In fact, we probably would have been much better off waiting a while and drafting Rosenfels. At least we would have had a decent backup for several years.

Thanks, Bill...and for the 'lucky' Irish, there is gold at the end of the rainbow.

[Hostile]

Originally Posted by junk

Sure, every team has bad picks. Even the best personnel people have bad picks. The Broaddus story about Parcells wanting Spears initially and Merriman over Ware is a great example of that. Belichick going with Maroney and Chad Jackson. We could find examples for every GM in the league.

However, the good ones have more good than bad and have a track record of consistently finding those good ones more often than not.

[View Full Quote]Jerry hasn't shown that ability and there are a bunch of things that could be contributing factors to that. He doesn't have a background in scouting or personnel. He's never done it as a job where he has to evaluate players, report to a superior, present his case and get feedback. He appears to be impulsive. He appears to be a bit of a gambler. He listens to way too many people and doesn't appear to be able to filter good information from bad information. He appears to overrate the talent on the roster. On and on and on......and the results on the field show those shortcomings. 1 playoff win in 15 years and the team's only real success under his watch has been with teams built by men with strong personnel backgrounds/skills.

We've gone around and around on this. Personally, I think you are letting emotion play way to big of a role in it. I don't think this blind defense of all things Jerry can be driven by any sort of logic. However, I am surprised you'd let it drive you to make things up to try to justify it.

Yeah, in the OP of this thread, I defended Jerry and laid nothing at his feet.

[Hostile]