Jimmy Johnson knew if a player could play!

[Arkyvarminter]

I believe I saw it on "A football life with Jimmy Johnson" where it showed the players Jimmy drafted and traded for while he coached in Dallas. I watched those teams win Super Bowls. My point is, when it showed the players Jimmy drafted and traded for I had forgotten how great he was at picking the right players. I mean, when he picked a player, that player usually went on to do big things in the NFL and many were pro bowlers. Alot of Jimmy's success hinged on his ability to pick very talented individuals. If he had a truly great player he wasn't beyond trying to trade that player for several guys he KNEW he could turn into great players. The man was good at picking potential pro bowlers. Do we have that now? Is Jerry putting his two cents in the draft and his opinion is worth exactly that..Two cents?

[Proximo]

Do you honest to God think Jimmy alone was responsible for the evaluation of players and deciding who to draft and who to sign/trade? I understand the guy did a phenomenal job building us up in the early 90s but there were other members of the staff and front office that had insight and played a part in the evaluation of the talent that Dallas procured.

[jterrell]

Jimmy and his staff knew as much about the players coming into the NFL in 1989-1991 as anyone ever has. All the staffers be brought from the college ranks had recruited and watched endless amounts of film of high school studs.

Add to that Jimmy could watch a DB for 10 minutes and tell you if he could play and he became the very best personnel guy in the business.

All that said two things are also very true which balance the story.
As in all things the truth lies in the middle.

Jimmy really was NOT very good at selecting offensive talent. He had no special knowledge of what good offensive players looked like coming out of college. He didn't like Troy much at first. Thought he was a loser. Repeated that theory to many. He drafted terribly on offense for the Dolphins (though quickly built a solid defense).

But the main issue with the Jimmy-Jerry feud is money. Jimmy never had any say over the money. Any and every contract he wanted signed Jerry had to sign. Any draft pick he wanted signed Jerry had to sign. Jimmy could have NEVER BEEN the final word on anything because he never had financial authority. There is tons of evidence of that.

And Jimmy has never had a bigger fan than himself. A lot has been made about him saying he wouldn't draft dumb players. We are talking about the guy who drafted a player (Cecil Collins) who attracted national attention before the draft because he took a dump in a girlfriend's clothes basket.

Jimmy calls this a country club but the Cowboys had the White House under Jimmy's nose. That group's partying would make Dez Bryant's head explode.

[Arkyvarminter]

Originally Posted by Proximo

Do you honest to God think Jimmy alone was responsible for the evaluation of players and deciding who to draft and who to sign/trade? I understand the guy did a phenomenal job building us up in the early 90s but there were other members of the staff and front office that had insight and played a part in the evaluation of the talent that Dallas procured.

I never meant that Jimmy was alone in his drafting players but he was a bigger part of it than many think. We haven't drafted like that since so something has changed......

[Proximo]

Originally Posted by Arkyvarminter

I never meant that Jimmy was alone in his drafting players but he was a bigger part of it than many think. We haven't drafted like that since so something has changed......

Glad to know you're aware he wasn't alone in the drafting of players. Your OP didn't mention anyone but Jimmy, so it was unclear, as you seem to be giving pretty much all of the credit to him.

As far as the statement "he was a bigger part of it than many think", I have to respectfully disagree. Most people know he had a very big part in it, and he receives more than enough credit.

[Flinger]

OK - what kind of dynasty to that "talent genius" leave after 4 years in Miami?


He did a fine job in Dallas. But, Garrett is doing a fine job also. The talent of this team has increased in the last 2 years. It will continue if he is allowed to continue.

Garrett may not be a great offensive play-caller or game manager, but he is putting some talent on the team - players and coaches.

[Frozen700]

Jimmy Johnson also walked on water.

[THUMPER]

The biggest difference to me was that Jimmy understood that you build through the draft and that means getting EXTRA early picks not trading them away for WRs.

The more high picks you have the better chance you have of getting quality starters. Jerry has no clue about the value of draft picks and trades them away in bunches for WRs or he trades down over and over to gain a bunch of later round picks where you are less likely to get top quality players.

Jimmy had 24 picks in rounds 1-3 from 1989-1993, that's an extra 9 picks in the first 3 rounds. If you hit on only a third of them that's 8 quality players you picked up just in those rounds. He did better than that and hit on 13 of our 23 (we selected Steve Wisniewski for the Raiders in 1989 for 3 draft picks).

Now look at 2000-2004, only 14 picks in the first 3 rounds and only got 4 guys who started for us for more than 4 years. That's pretty pathetic and set us back for years.

This is one of the major differences between a guys who knows the game (Jimmy Johnson) and a guy who doesn't (Jerry Jones).

Jerry seems more interested in wheeling and dealing on draft day and trying to prove to everyone that he KNOWS something that they don't than on getting quality players to help the team. That has changed some over the last few drafts and it has shown in the guys we have selected: Sean Lee, Tyron Smith, Bruce Carter, DeMarco Murray, and Morris Claiborne.

Still, in the last 4 drafts we have only had 5 picks in the first 2 rounds. Guys taken in the 4th or later rarely make the team, that's why you have got to focus on getting additional picks in the first 3 rounds and making solid selections with those picks. No headcases, no project players, no backups or Special Teamers, no chronic injury guys, no prima donnas, and no dumb players. You can take chances on guys after round 3 but not in the early rounds.

Jerry wants to strike it rich on one throw of the dice so that he can vindicate himself and show everyone that he really does know more than them but it doesn't happen often enough to cover up for all the stupid moves he has made over the years and it just confirms that he STILL doesn't get it.

[dfense]

Originally Posted by Arkyvarminter

I believe I saw it on "A football life with Jimmy Johnson" where it showed the players Jimmy drafted and traded for while he coached in Dallas. I watched those teams win Super Bowls. My point is, when it showed the players Jimmy drafted and traded for I had forgotten how great he was at picking the right players. I mean, when he picked a player, that player usually went on to do big things in the NFL and many were pro bowlers. Alot of Jimmy's success hinged on his ability to pick very talented individuals. If he had a truly great player he wasn't beyond trying to trade that player for several guys he KNEW he could turn into great players. The man was good at picking potential pro bowlers. Do we have that now? Is Jerry putting his two cents in the draft and his opinion is worth exactly that..Two cents?

You saw it on " A football life"? If you're old enough, you remember it. Jimmy Inherited HOFer Michael Irvin and basically inherited HOFer Aikman who was the best prospect since Elway. There was no way he was going to pass on him at 1 overall. He already had a great LT in Mark Tuine. In trading Hershel Jimmy got several high picks and player depth.

You could say he wasted the next years #1 on supplemental pick QB Walsh, but he ended up getting a 1,2 and 3 for him in a trade later on. If he didn't use the pick on Walsh, he may have used it on Blair Thomas or Cortez Kennedy, Junior Seau or Keith McCants. Any one of those guys probably would have kept him from trading with the Steelers to move up and get Emmitt Smith. Word was the Giants were going to take Smith and settled for Rodney Hampton instead. So there was some luck involved there. Especially since he was trying to move up for Ron Francis.

Jimmy got Aikman, Johnston, Stepnoski, Tolbert in the 1989 draft.

He also got Rhondy Weston, Keith Jennings, Willis Crocket, Jeff Roth, Kevin Peterson, Charvez Foger, Tim Jackson, Rob Carter, Randy Shannon, Scott Ankrom. He only hit on players in the top 4 rounds.

Jimmy wasted alot of picks he aquired. But it was like getting Julio Jones, Andrew Luck, and Adrian Peterson in sucessive years. Then throw in twenty picks to fill in spots. They could not have sucked if they tried.

They were so deep after the 1st Superbowl, the NFL instituted plan B free agency to break them up. I still hate Jimmy for leaving because the Cowboys would have easily won 4 straight SB's had he kept his own ego in check.

You really can't compare Jimmy to Jason Garrett. Garrett got a team he has to improve. Jimmy got to build whatever he wanted with alot more options.

...and remember, Jimmy never really won anything without Jerry.

[big dog cowboy]

Originally Posted by Arkyvarminter

My point is, when it showed the players Jimmy drafted and traded for I had forgotten how great he was at picking the right players. I mean, when he picked a player, that player usually went on to do big things in the NFL and many were pro bowlers.

Jimmy didn't "hit" on every player. Let's not get carried away. He had a lot of misses also.

[KJJ]

Originally Posted by big dog cowboy

Jimmy didn't "hit" on every player. Let's not get carried away. He had a lot of misses also.

The biggest misses were the trades for Alonzo Highsmith and Daniel Stubbs/ Terrence Flagler. Highsmith who had injury issues with the Oilers cost the Cowboys a #2 and a #5 and only accounted for 19 carries for 48 yards in his 2 seasons with Dallas. Stubbs and Flagler were a packaged deal that cost the Cowboys a #2 and a #3. Flagler isn't even listed as playing for the Cowboys so apparently he was cut during camp.

[Randy White]

Originally Posted by dfense

They were so deep after the 1st Superbowl, the NFL instituted plan B free agency to break them up

Plan B free agency was established before the Cowboys won SB XXVII. As a matter of fact, the Cowboys benefited tremendously from that system, which helped them accelerate their development.

Best acquisition they had through plan B ?


This guy:





What " robbed " the Cowboys of their debt was the early version of the current free agency system. Other teams overpaid for the Cowboys role players because of their success.

Jimmy Jones
Alvin Harper
Darren Smith
Mark Stepnoski
Ken Norton Jr
Kevin Gogan

just to name a few..

[Randy White]

just to show how trivial the " legend of Jimmah Jenius " really is, the Cowboys have used every single strategy that " the Jenius " used in those days. They've traded up, they've traded down. They've acquired tons picks, they've spent in free agency, and they've traded for players..

The 3 factors that they have not been able to replicate, oddly enough, " the Jenius " had very little to do with. Those factors are:

Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, and Michael Irvin.

As someone mentioned before, Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin were handed to him in a silver platter and if it wasn't for a former NFL legend turned scout named John Wooten and then great, since past, RB coach named Joe Brodsky, Emmitt Smith would have never worn a Cowboys' uniform because he was " too slow ".

" The Jenius " himself couldn't come up with anybody close to those 3 when he didn't have Jerry Jones to blame his shortcomings on and that's why he failed misserably and left in disgrace down here.

[Proximo]

Originally Posted by Flinger

OK - what kind of dynasty to that "talent genius" leave after 4 years in Miami?


He did a fine job in Dallas. But, Garrett is doing a fine job also. The talent of this team has increased in the last 2 years. It will continue if he is allowed to continue.

Garrett may not be a great offensive play-caller or game manager, but he is putting some talent on the team - players and coaches.

I agree with this. I think right now Garrett's ability to assemble quality players and coaches is his best quality. The other areas can be, and hopefully will be improved upon. This thing isn't going to happen overnight but in a year or two if we keep trending upwards as far as drafting and picking up free agents we could be in a much better spot than we have been in a while.

[jterrell]

Originally Posted by Arkyvarminter

I never meant that Jimmy was alone in his drafting players but he was a bigger part of it than many think. We haven't drafted like that since so something has changed......

The Cowboys had a good personnel man in place in Bob Ackles when Jimmy took over but he (Jimmy) rather shunned traditional approaches and leaned on his asst coaches instead of scouts. So Dallas trimmed the scouting staff over a couple years and basically had scout-coaching. It worked well when those guys had knowledge of college players. But when they didn't? They didn't have the time to scout every guy properly. We ended up relying on Lacewell a ton to try and replace the significant brain trust. He talked to old buddies in the SEC largely for info. It failed miserably.

But another thing gets missed.

Jimmy was drafting for a team with holes everywhere. We were terrible and needing a complete rebuild. All these young guys had jobs if they could play. Wasn't til 92 or so that guys like Woodson and Ron Stone had to sit as back ups even thought they could really play. Jimmy wasn't trying to maintain a 9-10 win team and build a champ at the same time. He tried that in Miami and found it much harder to do. There is a reason people say it is better to be really good or really bad. That middle area is the worst.

Jimmy was a phenomenal personnel guy but the advantages he had with the Walker picks and series of top picks for finishing poorly a couple years in a row gave him an unprecedented collection of draft picks to use.

Dallas has been drafting well. They have had misses as have all teams but they are also delivering some real hits with guys like lissemore and brent; not to mention carter/lee/murray. We expect 1st rounders to be solid starts and that has happened. Claiborne is a high enough 1st that he should be a regular Pro Bowler and that looks like it will happen. Also looks like Tyron Smith will have chances at that once he develops a bit more as an LT.

Coaching really has been the biggest issue the last 3 years. Wade struggled at the end; largely because he had no control over the offense. And the offense has largely struggled for the entirety of 3 years.

The leading reason to fire GM Jerry is because he hired Coach Jason. The player personnel dept has actually done a solid to plus job. Especially considering the injuries this team has faced the past season plus.