The passing game and the vertical offense Part I

[jobberone]

Originally Posted by vlad

That was unexpected and well written. Thanks, looking forward to any additions

Thanks. I may be too busy to put anything up until after the holidays though. I'll try. Some of Part II is written but it needs more work.

[Wolfpack]

Thats a great write up and nice that you knew to go back to Brown. Otto Graham was his guy and doesnt get enough credit as an important cog in that machine.

Brown was much like Jimmy Johnson in that he demanded your full attention and would cut you if he didnt get it. That affect on a player, can not be discounted.

I thought Brown went down the field more than you hint at but I dont have any sources in front of me to back that up. You are kind of saying he ran the 1st WCO?

[jobberone]

Originally Posted by rickjameschinaclub

I wouldn't expect you too, meaning it was sarcastic... telling us about how the vertical offense does little to tell us why Garrett sucks at it, while a guy like Coryell was a beast at it, meaning a thread on the vertical offense is really irrelevant to the Dallas Cowboys and why they are a sinking ship on offense.

I mean, when your 6th in passing yards and 21st in scoring that it is a quite telling stat. But yeah, blame the WRs...

Let's see. Coryell had Fouts and Joiner his first year. Then he got Kellen. Then he got Muncie who was considered the best back in football. That's three HOFers plus Muncie. They had a good OL.

Are you really going to compare those SD Chargers with our team? Do you honestly think Garrett should be turning our guys right now into HOF players? Romo isn't Fouts although some day he might be. Witten will be in the HOF but he's not the player Kellen was. Jefferson and Joiner are head and shoulders above our WRs. And while I like our RBs neither one is a Chuck Muncie at least not yet. OL....no need to go there.

Those guys made Coryell as much as he made them.

And most of us talking about the problems with the offense aren't defending Garrett. We're talking about the problems of the offense and why they are struggling.

[rickjameschinaclub]

You do realize Dan Fouts came into the league in 1973 and it was only with his teaming up with Coryell in San Diego in 1979 did he become a true legend, i.e. Coryell made Dan Fouts even greater. On the other hand, Garrett was gifted Romo and is making Romo's career go down the tubes, the longer he stays with him. Now, people are blaming Romo for Garrett's ineptitude, like yourself giving us an example where Romo overthrew Witten on one route as some evidence that Garrett is just brillian.

Further, Garrett also has a HoF tight end in Jason Witten, and yet, they still aren't getting in the end-zone. And Garrett was also giften with TO, i.e. a HoF wide-receiver and he didn't have him just for 2007. In 2008, Garrett once again did his magic when he got total control of the offense, and the Cowboys production on offense began it's pathetic decline. They tried to up the production, blaming it on the WRs and went ahead and got Roy Williams. Whoops.. that didn't work... Then Miles Austin had to bail out Garrett with that magical performance against KC, which once again gave Garrett homers more excuses. And now, we see the Garrett factor coming into full force again, with Miles being neglected and running routes that don't take any use of his skill set.

But yeah, I guess it's Jason Garrett's fault he doesn't have HoF players in every single position of the game.

Seriousyl, putting Coryell in the same sentence with Jason Garrett is flat-out almost as comical as putting Garrett in the same sentence with Tom Landry.

[Idgit]

Originally Posted by rickjameschinaclub

Overly harsh and expecting too much? The guy has been getting away with mediocrity since he's been the HC. Everybody else is shouldering the blame for his inept play-calling.

I'm still waiting for the names of those that think he's a great OC?

Perhaps people don't like your attitude or the tone of your posts, and so they are either ignoring you or are just disregarding your question. I know, if you ask nicely, I'd be happy to share my opinion on the topic.

[jobberone]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Thats a great write up and nice that you knew to go back to Brown. Otto Graham was his guy and doesnt get enough credit as an important cog in that machine.

Brown was much like Jimmy Johnson in that he demanded your full attention and would cut you if he didnt get it. That affect on a player, can not be discounted.

I thought Brown went down the field more than you hint at but I dont have any sources in front of me to back that up. You are kind of saying he ran the 1st WCO?

Actually I don't know. I don't know how horizontal Brown's offense was, how much he relied on his RBs in the passing game, or whether he used the short pass to supplement the run. My guess is it did not resemble the WCO that much.

Graham had three years out his six NFL years where he threw more INTs than TDs and only one year with a higher than 60% completion rate. His years in the AAFC were a little better but I'm not going to include them as the competition wasn't as good overall. His completion rate was in the 50s generally which was the norm then. He actually had a year where he threw for over 64% which is really incredible I think.

The Browns then averaged around 7+ yds a pass with one year 10+. In 6 years in the NFL he threw 1565 times averaging almost 22 passes per game. By contrast Romo throws about 25 a game for an average of around 8 per pass. Not a lot of difference there is it? So while I don't know how many passes were 20+ yds per game there's not a lot of difference in the averages. Graham still holds the NFL record for avg gain per reception at 9 which I find amazing (I think they might include his 4 years in the AAFC but I don't know).

Even with Brown as coach and basically the same team, after Graham retired in 1955 the Browns went 5-7 after so much success with Graham over the years.

That's a lot to say after saying I don't know. I will add that Walsh was a protege of Brown and while he has his own NFL tree he still belongs in Brown's tree. Unfortunately he and Brown didn't get along well and Brown did things to sabotage Walsh getting HCing jobs for awhile.

So Walsh took what he learned from Brown and mixed it in with the current state of offenses in the NFL then modified it to fit his own personnel giving us the WCO. Saying it is a variation of the vertical offense by no means distracts from the genius of it. Walsh knew what he had in Montana who was not as accurate as Graham but certainly as heady. He had a great QB to run that offense. Not going to say a lot more as I'd like to get into this in greater detail later.

[Chocolate Lab]

What we know as the WCO was born when Walsh's QB in Cinncinatti, Greg Cook, blew his arm out. He had been pretty much the prototype QB with a huge arm, but after the injury he was never the same. The backup was a smaller, mobile, weak-armed, but accurate guy, so Walsh modified the offense to the shorter, quicker routes we think of now.

[Omegasupreme]

Originally Posted by rickjameschinaclub

Whose acknowledged him as a good OC, especially considering now the excuse even from commentators that he should give up his OC duties to focus exclusively on being a HC?



Oh, I do and it's obvious that Red-Headed One isn't the Savior that the blind homers are hoping...

So explain to me how we keep garnering yards via passing, 6th in the whole NFL to be exact (which has been a common theme of Garrett), yet we are 21st in scoring (which is also a common theme of Garrett)? I mean the stats are telling us that we rack up yards via passing, meaning the WRs, and not only Witten, are technically catching balls and Romo isn't always over-throwing, yet we still don't score... Looks to me to be the same-old same old, which is Romo is obscuring how bad Garrett really is...

Well said.
Garrett is not a good OC. He is just an OC who is very much still learning all aspects of the game. To see the first drive in the Eagles game where Dallas was averaging 4 YPC was a solid command of the offense. But then, senslessly, all of a sudden the design turns to America's "pass time" where the receivers run routes that the Eagles all know and cover. Romo starts getting killed and if you go watch the game again you will see that the Eagles had the routes completely covered. The route-trees are predictable but even worse, there was no playaction to even cause pause in the coverage. One big fallacy is that the O-line is being blamed for not giving Romo enough time.
For what?
For secondary routes? Tertiary?
The primary routes have been a problem since Dom Capers destroyed Garrett 41-7. Unless there is a definite running game and play action, teams are going to cover as the Eagles did and tee off on Romo.

By the way, Garrett lost the Eagles game 23-17. He abandoned the run and the playaction and Dallas was stifled.

Chris Collinsworth pointed out in the Falcon game that the middle of the field was open and then later in the game pointed out the same. Garrett could not or would not adjust.
He is not a good OC. Since that one exceptional year in 2007 when he was unknown in his tendencies, Dallas averages just over 2 offensive TDs a game. Do the math. Take the offensive TDs and divide by 16. Unless the defense is a the Steelers, the team needs more TDs and Garrett is too ineffective to scheme to make more TDs but then he strangely was promoted. I look at the Niners and Seahawks who have far less talent at their skill positions but consistently use the talent they have to mold their plays and define the success of their drives. Not seeing that in Garrett.

[jobberone]

This topic is about the vertical offense not Jason Garrett. There are plenty of other threads trashing Jason. If you want to talk about just Jason's offense etc then either start your own thread or take those posts to a thread about Jason's offense. This goes for all threads on this site.

/mod hat off

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by jobberone

Actually I don't know. I don't know how horizontal Brown's offense was, how much he relied on his RBs in the passing game, or whether he used the short pass to supplement the run. My guess is it did not resemble the WCO that much.

Graham had three years out his six NFL years where he threw more INTs than TDs and only one year with a higher than 60% completion rate. His years in the AAFC were a little better but I'm not going to include them as the competition wasn't as good overall. His completion rate was in the 50s generally which was the norm then. He actually had a year where he threw for over 64% which is really incredible I think.

[View Full Quote]The Browns then averaged around 7+ yds a pass with one year 10+. In 6 years in the NFL he threw 1565 times averaging almost 22 passes per game. By contrast Romo throws about 25 a game for an average of around 8 per pass. Not a lot of difference there is it? So while I don't know how many passes were 20+ yds per game there's not a lot of difference in the averages. Graham still holds the NFL record for avg gain per reception at 9 which I find amazing (I think they might include his 4 years in the AAFC but I don't know).

Even with Brown as coach and basically the same team, after Graham retired in 1955 the Browns went 5-7 after so much success with Graham over the years.

That's a lot to say after saying I don't know. I will add that Walsh was a protege of Brown and while he has his own NFL tree he still belongs in Brown's tree. Unfortunately he and Brown didn't get along well and Brown did things to sabotage Walsh getting HCing jobs for awhile.

So Walsh took what he learned from Brown and mixed it in with the current state of offenses in the NFL then modified it to fit his own personnel giving us the WCO. Saying it is a variation of the vertical offense by no means distracts from the genius of it. Walsh knew what he had in Montana who was not as accurate as Graham but certainly as heady. He had a great QB to run that offense. Not going to say a lot more as I'd like to get into this in greater detail later.

More great stuff. I was born in Canton, Ohio living RIGHT next to the Hall of Fame so I've been exposed to all the Paul Brown legend. Its really a GREAT story, he had some ups and downs and seemed to have difficult personal relationships sometimes but was a great coach at every level. Surprised that someone hasnt mad a movie about him...I know NFL films has some stuff but like a really good one would be killer.

For that era Brown's, look at the roster and see how many guys are in the HOF and you are right about Graham. Brown begged Graham to stay "one more year" several times but that team folded when he left. That poor team has been cursed since Model ran Brown off.

[jobberone]

Well the story on Walsh is a little more interesting than above. He played ball and coached at a small college with Madden. He got his first decent college job from Marv Levy. He coached with Davis who got his offense from Gillman. Eventually he then went to Cincinnati under Brown eventually becoming the QB coach. He was there 8 years until Brown retired. Later he landed in SF.

He coached Carter who didn't have a big arm so he threw short. I think that was the beginning of his WCO. IMO.

So he got a dose of Davis in the Gillman tree and Brown. And he did what any good coach does which is work with the strengths of his players. He was just smart enough to make lemonade out of lemons.

[lurkercowboy]

Originally Posted by jobberone

Let's see. Coryell had Fouts and Joiner his first year. Then he got Kellen. Then he got Muncie who was considered the best back in football. That's three HOFers plus Muncie. They had a good OL.

Are you really going to compare those SD Chargers with our team? Do you honestly think Garrett should be turning our guys right now into HOF players? Romo isn't Fouts although some day he might be. Witten will be in the HOF but he's not the player Kellen was. Jefferson and Joiner are head and shoulders above our WRs. And while I like our RBs neither one is a Chuck Muncie at least not yet. OL....no need to go there.

Those guys made Coryell as much as he made them.

And most of us talking about the problems with the offense aren't defending Garrett. We're talking about the problems of the offense and why they are struggling.

Muncie was a good back, but he was never considered the best back in football. He was never even counted among the elite group at the time which included Walter Payton, Earl Campbell, and Tony Dorsett.