If We All Agree That Payton is a Better Coach

[birdwells1]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab

Few thoughts:

One, it's hard to believe someone could argue that because a few fans griped about Sean Payton, and they also gripe about Jason Garrrett, that Payton would do no better than Jason Garrett as HC. That makes absolutely zero sense.

(And for the record, like Rack said, I don't remember nearly the complaining about Payton that some claim. I think we all realized Parcells has his thumb on both the offense and the defense when he was HC.)

Two, does anyone else not remember nearly the excuses for Wade Phillips that Garrett is getting? With Wade, we had penalties and couldn't run the ball because he was just an idiot dufus who didn't know how to run a team. With Jason, we have those things because the HC here is powerless to Jerry's influence.

[View Full Quote]Three, on Sean Payton, most of you underestimate the respect and admiration Jerry has for him. And the same is true of Holmgren. This isn't some Chan Gailey noob who Jerry can or even wants to push around. That's why it's critical we make a move when these two special cases are available.

I agree but I only think that it's 1 special case and that's Payton. I mean Holmgren will be 65 years old by the start of next season and imo you'll be getting BP #2 as far as being through. It's not often you get a SB winning coach in his prime and not coming off of being fired for a bad record.

[Chocolate Lab]

Originally Posted by Risen Star

It makes sense in the fact that these same people told me Sean Payton sucked too. Now they're telling me it's Jason Garrett and Sean Payton needs to come back.

Pardon me if I'm a little confused here. Maybe those folks just don't really understand what the real problem is and are merely letting their frustrations out on the highest member of the totem pole that can be changed.

BTW, it wasn't "a few fans". It was the vast majority of this posting fan base.

So you judge coaches by fans complaining or not? Again, that makes no sense. Some fans complain about every coach. Fans complain about Parcells and Coughlin and others, too... Therefore Garrett is equal to them?

And you do realize, don't you, that fans aren't complaining about the head coach of this team for some arbitrary reason. They're complaining because the team he's putting on the field is an underachieving, disorganized mess. We're 6-10 in our last 16 games now. That's unacceptable.

Wade Phillips is a loser head coach. But not for anything he did here. He only got the job because of the strings already attached to him. He had no chance to succeed here and shouldn't be judged for it. Judge him for his failures at multiple other stops in the league.

I don't see how Jason Garrett's career compares whatsoever.

Garrett's career doesn't compare. His record is much worse than Wade's. Sideline facial expressions and press conferences aside. So if he's a loser, what does that make Garrett?

Jerry also has the same respect and admiration for the current coach. Now maybe their skins on the wall would give them more power. If so, let's do that. But if not, those guys would do no better here than the supposedly over matched coach we've got now.

Sorry.....at some point during this Jerry era you have to stop blaming head coaches and start to look upward.

Jerry likes, even loves Jason as much as those guys, but there's no way he respects his coaching ability as much. Even he isn't that blind, or crazy.

[CATCH17]

Originally Posted by birdwells1

I agree but I only think that it's 1 special case and that's Payton. I mean Holmgren will be 65 years old by the start of next season and imo you'll be getting BP #2 as far as being through. It's not often you get a SB winning coach in his prime and not coming off of being fired for a bad record.

You let Romo finish his career with Holmgren and then you move on.

I think it's a good short term fit for both sides.

[M'Kevon]

Originally Posted by Woods

I think the most realistic scenario by season's end is that JJ gives JG at least 1 more year to show improvement.

If I were JG, during the off-season I'd be pushing JJ to invest heavily in the OL and players to build depth at other positions.

If Garrett flounders after Year 3, that could be it for him.

I think it is more realistic that JJ goes hard after Payton, and if that fails (likely - I believe Payton uses JJ as leverage against NO), then he gives JG another year. Perhaps with Holgrem as an unofficial adviser to the GM.

[birdwells1]

Originally Posted by CATCH17

You let Romo finish his career with Holmgren and then you move on.

I think it's a good short term fit for both sides.

Yeah but why get a short term fit when you can potentially get a long term one?

[birdwells1]

Originally Posted by M'Kevon

I think it is more realistic that JJ goes hard after Payton, and if that fails (likely - I believe Payton uses JJ as leverage against NO), then he gives JG another year. Perhaps with Holgrem as an unofficial adviser to the GM.

Yeah this is what I'm afraid of, Payton might already have his mind made up to go back to NO but it does nothing but hurt his leverage to show his hand now. What I see are signs of a chance might only really be negotiation tactics. I hope not.

[Risen Star]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab

So you judge coaches by fans complaining or not? Again, that makes no sense. Some fans complain about every coach. Fans complain about Parcells and Coughlin and others, too... Therefore Garrett is equal to them?

No, I don't judge coaches by fans. I'm discrediting the criticisms of Garrett because Payton carried the same criticisms from the same people and once he left here he proved them wrong.

I'm saying the issue is bigger than the head coach.

And you do realize, don't you, that fans aren't complaining about the head coach of this team for some arbitrary reason. They're complaining because the team he's putting on the field is an underachieving, disorganized mess. We're 6-10 in our last 16 games now. That's unacceptable.

Sure I know why. Yes, it's unacceptable. The question is what is the real problem causing it?

You apparently think it's yet another bad head coach. I choose to believe it's the one constant that's remained through all this losing.

Garrett's career doesn't compare. His record is much worse than Wade's. Sideline facial expressions and press conferences aside. So if he's a loser, what does that make Garrett?

Wade's failed at multiple stops. Garrett's only had a shot here under an owner nobody has won with since he decided he was a GM.

It's hard to judge Garrett. It's not hard to judge Wade.

Jerry likes, even loves Jason as much as those guys, but there's no way he respects his coaching ability as much. Even he isn't that blind, or crazy.

Well this is just you guessing. And again, it's more than likely coming from a guy who would have drove Payton to the airport when he left. Since the majority of the fan base at the time felt that way. But now he's a coaching God clearly better than what we have here.

Then he comes here and does the same thing everybody else has done. He must have lost his touch. Or maybe Drew Brees made him. Get rid of Payton. He's the problem. It's like a bad movie playing on an endless loop.

[TTexasTT]

I dont think anyone in their right mind actually thinks this pipe dream will become reality.
For those of you holding out hope, prepare yourself!

Payton is not coming!
Gruden is not coming!
Holmgren is not coming!
Cowher is not coming!

It is MUCH more likely that the Cowboys win the Super Bowl than any of those guys become HC in Dallas.

Im sorry. I really am.

[birdwells1]

Originally Posted by TTexasTT

I dont think anyone in their right mind actually thinks this pipe dream will become reality.
For those of you holding out hope, prepare yourself!

Payton is not coming!
Gruden is not coming!
Holmgren is not coming!
Cowher is not coming!

It is MUCH more likely that the Cowboys win the Super Bowl than any of those guys become HC in Dallas.

Im sorry. I really am.

No you're not you like what Garrett is doing, go ahead and admit don't be ashamed. Lol.

[ConstantReboot]

I want Payton here badly. He is just what we need to turn this organization around. Payton rarely was criticized here because when he was the playcaller we always had a very good offense that was hamstrung by Parcells. Most people could see that Payton was a terrific playcaller and that he should be given the chance to call the plays that would benefit the team.

During one game when Parcells told Payton to call the plays against the Eagles, that offense didn't waste a single minute in putting up more than 40 points against the Eagles. When he was here as the playcaller we never had problems with big plays and scoring. Now since Garrett has completely taken over this offense, our big play ability is gone and we struggle to put points on the board.

Payton was rarely criticized here. Actually, if I recall, more people were stating that Payton should be calling the plays rather than Parcells - and that Parcells is holding our team back. Can you imagine if he was our HC without limitations? Our offense would be very, very explosive. Garrett doesn't even compare to Payton as a coach.

[Alexander]

Originally Posted by DallasDomination

Everyone wants a culture change by getting a new coach. Thats not gonna happen.

A culture change is not going to happen regardless.

You can only hope to improve the situation.

One thing I do not believe Jerry Jones influences things is on the gameday product.

The practices might be a circus and the organizational decison-making baffling, but I do not think he calls down the field and advises Jason Garrett to making gaffes during a game that make Herm Edwards chuckle.

You can only hope for small incremental improvements because unless generations of the Jones family are no longer in positions of power, real change is impossible.

In other words, there are different degrees of being screwed.

You just have to choose which one you are comfortable with.

I would rather have hope of a Super Bowl winning coach with a killer instinct working under this dark cloud of ineptitude than a coach who is still "learning on the job" but is showing a distinct lack of progression from his days as an interim head coach.

[Aven8]

All I have is this to say about Payton. He won with a lot of Cowboy cast offs that we thought weren't very good.

Devery Hendorson, Fujita, etc.

With a strong offseason full of Oline, we might be contenders next year.

[Alexander]

Originally Posted by Aven8

All I have is this to say about Payton. He won with a lot of Cowboy cast offs that we thought weren't very good.

Devery Hendorson, Fujita, etc.

With a strong offseason full of Oline, we might be contenders next year.

Henderson never played for the Cowboys. But he did have Fujita and Scott Shanle do well. Even Remi Ayodele for a spell.

[TheSport78]

It's comical that fans on this forum say that Payton wasn't successful here and or that all of us wanted him out of Dallas.

HE HAD QUINCY CARTER, VINNY TESTAVERDE, DREW HENSON, AND DREW BLEDSOE AT QB.

[Luckenbach]

Let's see...

Garrett the OC was hired BEFORE Wade Philips the HC in 2007. (I'm sure all candidates were relieved that they didn't need to fill the position should they get the HC job...)

Garrett was running the offense in the 1-6 stretch that got Wade fired.

Yet his mediocre finish of .500 was enough to secure him the job.
(I would've preferred Ray Sherman if we were handicapped into hiring from the inside of a 1-6 start season staff)

Garrett's finish last season was 8-8. Before the 2010 season Wade Philips had 3 straight winning seasons (2 division titles in that span). Granted he was 1-2 in the 2 of 3 post seasons he made, but that is kinda looking decent at this point. Also right now Garrett including last season and so far this season equals Wades win total in his first season... 13... lucky number I guess...

Effectively he's doing worse than Wade Philips. Literally and Figuratively. Since Garrett has been HC 3rd in our division seems to be the trend and the standard.

This generalized BS that Garrett is being given undeserved criticism is interesting. Because even in Wins I've still disagreed with Garrett's strategy. Icing his own kicker, QB sneak on 1st down, throwing deep on 2nd and 1, 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1, but I digress...

This fact holds true, I haven't liked Garrett since his hiring handicapped our Head Coach hiring in 2007.