Valley Ranch is a Mess - Page 6 - Dallas Cowboys Forum

Rack Bauer · 01-16-2013

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Originally Posted by Frozen700

Is this the part where we panic?

It's been 18 years since we were relevant... yeah I'd say it's a good time to panic.

dfan32 · 01-16-2013

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Originally Posted by SilverStarCowboy

Well it's not golf or tennis. Jerry is the only one left. He has done this fly by the seat of your pants thing routinely, whether it's drafting, Hiring Coaches or signing players.

Over the last 16 years, the Cowboys have drafted somewhere near the middle of the drafting order, sometimes lower but usually a bit higher. Does that mean he is better at "flying by the seat of his pants" than several other NFL GM's?

scottsp · 01-16-2013

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Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab

To me the funny part isn't even the age... It's that he's the guy Jimmy wanted for OC before he settled for Norv.

Yep, and for a while there before Turner was hired to replace Shula, a lot of us thought it would be Tollner.

Gosh, I pray Grandpa is wrong about this one.

CowboyRoy · 01-16-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen700

Is this the part where we panic?

Whats to panic about? This is the same 500 joke of a team that we have seen for the last 16 years.

Its only the homers that claim we are winning it all each year and then fall off the wagon about midseason. The realists understand this team is going nowhere. In fact, we try to talk sense into many of you as the season unfolds and we are called bad fans by the like. Smart and realistic is more like it.

jjktkk · 01-16-2013

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Originally Posted by CowboyRoy

Whats to panic about? This is the same 500 joke of a team that we have seen for the last 16 years.

Its only the homers that claim we are winning it all each year and then fall off the wagon about midseason. The realists understand this team is going nowhere. In fact, we try to talk sense into many of you as the season unfolds and we are called bad fans by the like. Smart and realistic is more like it.

A legend in your own mind, or a debbie downer? I personally don't think the team is gonna win it all every year, but I won't exhaust myself with all the bash Jerry threads on here either. The past couple of years has been productive, as far as getting young talent and I hope the process continues. Other than to just vent, I don't see the need for the constant whining on here about the sorry state of the Cowboys.

Hoofbite · 01-16-2013

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Originally Posted by Idgit

How many years in a row are we going to sit around and watch how moves get made in the NFL, look at half the picture, and conclude that it's the team that's clueless when the reality is that the changes are in process and we just have to wait to see what the plan actually is in the first place?

We go through this with the coaching changes. We go through it with veteran free agency. We go through it with college free agency. Each time, the team's plan becomes clear and we realize we were complaining for no reason other than we didn't know in advance what they were up to. Countless threads about how we don't have a plan, when, in reality, we always--obviously--do.

Complaining for no reason? How is that even possible unless the "plan" works to perfection every single time? Pretty sure the OL play from this season validated all of the complaining last offseason about not putting together a strong unit. Or was the plan to have a crappy OL?

I'm also sure the "plan" was to employ Rob Ryan for 2 seasons which is why he was fired instead of being a free agent. Must have written those extra years into the contract just for the laughs.

"Always having a plan" doesn't really mean anything when the plan is constantly changing because certain aspects of the plan have failed shortly after implementation. If the "author" of the plan has to constantly change certain aspects of the plan to where a short time after the initial plan was written it only moderately resembles the current version, is that any different than not having a plan at all and just going with whatever works best at the moment?

What if that was the plan, to just see what works best at any given moment? Is that a plan? If it is, sounds pretty damn awful to me. If it's not, in what ways is it different from having a plan all written out and then using pallet after pallet of White Out to make corrections?

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Just sit tight and see what happens. Then, complain all you want. You guys aren't going to like whatever the plan is, anyway, and you've got a long off season to tell us about it.

Ya know, if you perpetually tell people to "sit tight and see what happens" there will never be a time at which they actually can complain.

Dallas fires #1 and hires #2: "Just sit tight and see what happens".

Dallas fires #2 and hires #3: "Just sit tight and see what happens".

If at each firing you do nothing but "sit tight and see what happens" because it is all a part of the "plan", then nothing is ever NOT a part of the plan and there is never a point at which people can complain. If you accept everything as a part of the plan and the plan is free to and will change at any given time, when do people get to comment on how horrible the plan is?

The answer is pretty much, "never", because waiting to see how it plays out means that you are waiting forever. Waiting for a book to be published that's stuck in a cycle of first revisions.

SilverStarCowboy · 01-16-2013

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Originally Posted by dfan32

Over the last 16 years, the Cowboys have drafted somewhere near the middle of the drafting order, sometimes lower but usually a bit higher. Does that mean he is better at "flying by the seat of his pants" than several other NFL GM's?

Admittedly Jerry Jones would have been fired "by Jerruuhh himself" after his 16th year of less than Kansas City Chiefs level football, over 12 months ago.

Beyond that he'd of retained a job about 2-4 years tops for any other NFL Franchise, without Jimmy Johnson. That would have been 12 -14 years ago he'd of been canned.

**Idgit** · 01-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Hoofbite

Complaining for no reason? How is that even possible unless the "plan" works to perfection every single time? Pretty sure the OL play from this season validated all of the complaining last offseason about not putting together a strong unit. Or was the plan to have a crappy OL?

I'm also sure the "plan" was to employ Rob Ryan for 2 seasons which is why he was fired instead of being a free agent. Must have written those extra years into the contract just for the laughs.

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There's nothing at all wrong with not liking a plan. In fact, I can say with some confidence that there is going to be plenty of complaining about this team's offseason coaching plan once people actually know what it is.

Not all criticisms are valid, though. I'd think you'd probably agree with that. Invalid criticisms (eg: "JG takes too long to throw a challenge flag" or "We don't know what we're doing with our coaching changes because it didn't happen quickly") is complaining for no reason whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoofbite

Ya know, if you perpetually tell people to "sit tight and see what happens" there will never be a time at which they actually can complain.

Dallas fires #1 and hires #2: "Just sit tight and see what happens".

Dallas fires #2 and hires #3: "Just sit tight and see what happens".

If at each firing you do nothing but "sit tight and see what happens" because it is all a part of the "plan", then nothing is ever NOT a part of the plan and there is never a point at which people can complain. If you accept everything as a part of the plan and the plan is free to and will change at any given time, when do people get to comment on how horrible the plan is?

The answer is pretty much, "never", because waiting to see how it plays out means that you are waiting forever. Waiting for a book to be published that's stuck in a cycle of first revisions.

When have I ever perpetually told people to sit tight and see what happens? The two times I can remember making this case was 1, when we'd brought in the two FA OGs and were having fits about how bad the interior OL was going to be when we hadn't yet seen the OL starters play a single offensive snap. And 2, now, when we're in the middle of juggling the coaching staff and all the moves have not yet been announced. In both cases, I said there's a time and a place for criticizing. In the case of the OL, it turned out that Costa didn't even hardly play and that the bigger problem was really with the OTs, so, yeah, all of that complaining in advance turned out to, in fact, have been pretty much completely misguided. In the case of the current staff, I'd also submit that, when everything's said and done, people will have plenty to complain about in terms of who we hired. Sure, they have the right to complain about the process taking too long in the meantime. Or to delude themselves into thinking that the delay while games are still being played somehow means there actually isn't any plan at all. That sort of jumping the gun happens all the time and is not against the rules. It's just illogical, and it's unnecessarily dramatic.

visionary · 01-17-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoofbite

Ya know, if you perpetually tell people to "sit tight and see what happens" there will never be a time at which they actually can complain.

If at each firing you do nothing but "sit tight and see what happens" because it is all a part of the "plan", then nothing is ever NOT a part of the plan ...

exactly

you guys just complain
it is all part of the grand master scheme
wait for the process to play out

been hearing this from blind followers for years now

yeah, because the guys putting those schemes, plans, and processes together have done such a great job in the last 17 years

hilarious

**Idgit** · 01-17-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by visionary

exactly

you guys just complain
it is all part of the grand master scheme
wait for the process to play out

been hearing this from blind followers for years now

yeah, because the guys putting those schemes, plans, and processes together have done such a great job in the last 17 years

hilarious

Context actually does matter in the case of this argument.

And why do you care, anyway, visionary? You'll be among the first to complain about whatever the plan is when it actually becomes apparent, won't you? No matter what the plan actually is, there's still the '17 years of futility' thing to fall back on.

Doomsday101 · 01-17-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idgit

Context actually does matter in the case of this argument.

And why do you care, anyway, visionary? You'll be among the first to complain about whatever the plan is when it actually becomes apparent, won't you? No matter what the plan actually is, there's still the '17 years of futility' thing to fall back on.

Seems to be the case. No matter what the Cowboys do at this point, it will not matter.

For me I'm not interested in the past 17 years only concerned with this year and these staff members who are joining the team and the players we will pick up for this upcoming season and hope they can help make the differance.

visionary · 01-17-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idgit

Context actually does matter in the case of this argument.

And why do you care, anyway, visionary? You'll be among the first to complain about whatever the plan is when it actually becomes apparent, won't you? No matter what the plan actually is, there's still the '17 years of futility' thing to fall back on.

thread topic is
"the current mess in valley ranch"

**Idgit** · 01-17-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by visionary

thread topic is
"the current mess in valley ranch"

I know.

And my argument disputed the validity of that claim. Because what looks like a 'mess' is really just part of the sum total of offseason moves which will end up being made.

It's like looking at cake batter and calling the cake a mess. No kidding.

HoustonFrog · 01-17-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idgit

I know.

And my argument disputed the validity of that claim. Because what looks like a 'mess' is really just part of the sum total of offseason moves which will end up being made.

It's like looking at cake batter and calling the cake a mess. No kidding.

That is pretty broad.

You don't know whether its a mess or not. You are acting like its part of the normal process when the Team and Jerry have never had a normal process comparatively. So your argument doesn't dispute anything. There isn't an ending yet. I mean in the past we hired an O coordinator before a HC..not part of a normal process.

Your analogy us making it seem like I think we are just going to go into the draft with an incomplete staff or an "unmade cake." My OP stated the opinion that Jerry was more concerned about people being uncomfortable vs process. After all we don't know what would have happened if we beat Washington. Because of this, many of the moves seem less planned in my book. Again, it's not like Jerry hasn't ever gone off script.

HoustonFrog · 01-22-2013

Just another opinion stating similar thoughts regarding "seat of the pants" decisions.

http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/01...r-changes.html

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Who else can Jerry fire that will have zero impact on his team's win-loss record?
We're uncomfortable as hell out here! We're gettin' things done! Change!
The alterations thus far for the Cowboys feel like change for the sake of change rather than a clear, long-term purpose, which is consistent with this franchise of late.

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As long as Kiffin is going to be handed a plate of Gerald Sensabaugh at safety, he is going to get the same results as Rob Ryan. Does Kiffin have a Fountain of Youth for DeMarcus Ware and Jay Ratliff? Does Kiffin have some sort of miracle cure for injuries to apply to Sean Lee?
Unless the answer to either of those questions is yes, these off-season coaching moves are another example of Jerry Jones doing what Jerry does -- activity, motion, news releases, none of which can mask the true deficiencies of the roster.

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It is one of the most bizarre characteristics of GM Jerry; so little of what he does as a GM seems to be consistent with his persona as a highly competent, and accomplished businessman.

Jerry the Businessman is always building and adding to his empire with a purpose of growth.

Jerry the GM always seems to be making moves because, well, something has to be done, and it feels good.

Signing Terrell Owens comes to mind. Trading for Roy Williams.

The irony is that Jerry's decision to hire Garrett as the offensive coordinator in 2007 was done with the future in mind. It just hasn't worked out the way he envisioned.

With the exception of the Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells' years at Valley Ranch, the decision-making process over the past 20-plus years has been marked with so many head-scratching decisions one would be devoid of a scalp by now.

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