Hall of Fame Announcement Thread***Allen IN-2013 class Post #9***

[percyhoward]

Originally Posted by KJJ

Instead of dancing around my questions provide an honest answer you don't think those championship losses helped contribute to several of the Cowboys being denied HOF inductions?

See if you can let go of the idea that the only important championships that involved the Cowboys were the ones the Cowboys lost.

[KJJ]

Originally Posted by percyhoward

That's not really how it has worked. The Ring of Honor reacts to what the Hall of Fame does, maybe more so than the other way around.

When the ROH was created in 1975 it didn't react to what the HOF did it reacted to what a player meant to the Cowboys organization. The ROH started as a way of honoring the players who helped pave the way for the Cowboys becoming a great organization. Bob Lilly was the first inductee who had the distinction of being the Cowboys very first draft pick. Landry considered him the greatest player he ever coached that's why he was inducted. The next 2 players inducted Meredith and Perkins weren't even close to HOF caliber players but were added to the ROH because like Lilly they helped pave the way for the Cowboys. The first 4 ROH inductees began with Cowboys in 1960 and 61 they were the foundation.

Under Landry and Shramm only 6 players were inducted into the ROH 4 of which ended their careers with HOF credentials. When Jerry took over in 89 he immediately added Jordan who was a head scratching omission under Landry and Shramm. He then added Hayes to help get him into the HOF. Jerry knew if a player isn't in their own teams HOF they're not gong to get voted into Canton. Part of the reason Jerry added Haley was to help get him into the HOF but back in the day under Landry and Shramm the ROH wasn't reacting to or influenced by the HOF.

Originally Posted by percyhoward

By your logic, Jordan, Harris, Wright, and Haley were not HOF worthy when they were first finalists for the HOF, since none of them were in the ROH at the time. They were only inducted into the ROH as a reaction to the fact that they had become HOF finalists.

My logic is the same as most if a player isn't in their own teams HOF they're not going to get voted into the Pro Football HOF. You don't think the selection committee doesn't think to themselves if a player wasn't special enough to be honored in their own teams HOF than why are they special enough to receive the ultimate honor a bust in Canton? No one knows a player better than their own team so a teams ROH can influence what the HOF does. Part of the reason Jerry added Hayes, Wright and Haley was to help get them in the HOF. Both Hayes and Wright were inducted into the HOF after being inducted into the Cowboys ROH.

Originally Posted by percyhoward

What did Rayfield Wright do between 2004 and 2006 to become "Hall of Fame worthy?" The team realized they had erred by not having him in the ROH, and so he was quickly installed. Same with Harris. Same with Haley, and it took two times for him to be a finalist before the team reacted.

In my opinion you should know immediately after a player retired whether they had a HOF career or not. It's puzzling to me that it took 39 years to decide Dave Robinson was a HOF player. What did he do the past 39 years to finally convince the committee? When the HOF started they added a bunch of players right off the bat now they only add 4-7 players/coaches each year and it can take years for some players to get in. The system certainly isn't perfect there's clearly flaws but I see no bias against teams.

Rayfield Wright was a great player for the Cowboys but not being added to the ROH under Landry and Shramm who knew him the best contributed to him being denied by the HOF for years. Jerry understands the ROH's influence on the HOF and as a result added Wright in 04 and 2 years later it led to his HOF induction.

Originally Posted by percyhoward

If you're under the impression that this team has an appreciation for its own history, just remember that there wasn't even a 50th Anniversary Team announced. Just a logo and all the merchandize that carried it.

The Cowboys do have an appreciation for it's own history that's why the ROH continues to this day. Coming up with a 50th Anniversary team would exclude many good players that contributed to the organization over that period. Anytime you try assembling such an elite team it's going to create some controversy as to what players should be on it. Jerry would get ripped by the older fans for putting most of his 90's players on the team and not recognizing enough of the 70's players. The fact there was a logo commemorating the 50th Anniversary shows an appreciation.

Originally Posted by percyhoward

Slow down. Do you know who votes for the All-Decade Teams? The HOF selection committee.

When the HOF selection committee looked at Martin in 1980 they voted him to the All-Decade Team of the 70s.

Then that should prove the committee has no bias against the Cowboys.

Originally Posted by percyhoward

If, as you say, the committee has deemed Martin as not having "enough good seasons," then it's a later incarnation of the committee -- one much farther removed from his playing days -- that has decided this in retrospect, and against the earlier group's judgment.

I never said Martin didn't have enough "good" seasons I said the committee probably sees him as a player who only had one "great" season and several good ones. Although Martin was named to the all decade team the NFL has been around for 9 decades. There's many players who get named to all decade teams. You can knock the committee all you want but Martin is not in the Cowboys ROH and that has nothing to do with the selection committee.

Originally Posted by percyhoward

Just like it's only in retrospect that Harris and Pearson (who also made that team in 1980) have been judged unworthy by later versions of the committee. Do you think that group of voters in 1980 was unaware that the Steelers had just won their 4th Super Bowl?

Harris and Pearson weren't deemed worthy enough for the Cowboys ROH until years after Landry and Shramm were gone. It wasn't until 25 years after Harris retired that the Cowboys inducted him into the ROH. It wasn't until 28 years after Pearson retired that he was inducted into the ROH. You keep pointing to a bias by the selection committee that's keeping some of the Cowboys out of the HOF but what's your reasoning behind the delay in getting some of these players into the Cowboys HOF?

[KJJ]

Originally Posted by percyhoward

See if you can let go of the idea that the only important championships that involved the Cowboys were the ones the Cowboys lost.

All championships are important but some are more memorable than others because of certain plays or how the games ended. The Ice Bowl was memorable because it was the coldest game on record and the game went down to the last play and unfortunately the Cowboys lost. SB X and XIII were memorable because it pitted 2 of the most talented teams of the 70's and both games went down to the wire and featured a couple of very memorable plays. Unfortunately both plays and the outcome of the games went against the Cowboys.

Answer the question you don't think the championship losses to the Packers in the 60's and the Steelers in the 70's helped contribute to several of the Cowboys being denied HOF inductions while getting some of the Packers and Steelers in? Do you honestly believe that Charles Haley is being denied induction because of a bias against the Cowboys? Stop diverting just give your opinion so we can wrap this up.