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06-06-2004
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#46
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Member
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hostile
Okay let me address the last part first. Perhaps excuse is a better word, but it gets thrown about too much here.
Here is your comment...
"I think there strides are more dependent upon the type of play being called."
In other words, there might be a defense for his footwork. No, there is not and denying it is what I called a cop out. If excuse works better for you, fine.
The differing opinions have nothing to do with it at all.
Bottom line, he is selling a run play. Vinny's mechanics and technique could be either a run or a pass. It is called a play fake. The way to be good at it is to sell each time whether you actually do it or not.
I am quite sure this is a handoff drill only. If this is a play fake drill then I am even more distraught at what I see from our starting QB, because that is bad.
[View Full Quote]As for addressing it in my initial post, I did. Second statement of the opening lines. I expected to be taken to task by people who already think ill of me for my opinions. |
And you still did not adress any of the possibilities that it could be a short/quick playaction pass vs a long one. Can you explain to me why there are quick drops and deep drops? Are the strides different? Doesn't it matter if say the RB is running out to the 8hole vs running to the 2hole? The QB's strides are different for each of those. |
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06-06-2004
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#47
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Senior Member
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Posts: | 8,594 |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BluMen
And you still did not adress any of the possibilities that it could be a short/quick playaction pass vs a long one. Can you explain to me why there are quick drops and deep drops? Are the strides different? Doesn't it matter if say the RB is running out to the 8hole vs running to the 2hole? The QB's strides are different for each of those.
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The difference you are suggesting will show AFTER the fake hand off, not before.
The QB takes the snap, drops, fakes a hand off and THEN he will set his feet on a quick play, or continue to drop on a longer one.
In the picture Carter feet are behind his center of gravity, he is off balance and is waiting for the runner. None of that makes for a good fake, a hand off, or puts him in a better position to set his feet to throw. |
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06-06-2004
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#48
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Right Kind of Guy
Years Donated 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Posts: | 117,253 |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BluMen
And you still did not adress any of the possibilities that it could be a short/quick playaction pass vs a long one. Can you explain to me why there are quick drops and deep drops? Are the strides different? Doesn't it matter if say the RB is running out to the 8hole vs running to the 2hole? The QB's strides are different for each of those.
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Yes, I did. If you wish to ignore it that is your perogative. |
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06-06-2004
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#49
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Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Location: | In a van down by |
Posts: | 2,214 |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hostile
Okay you convinced me. I'll get ripped, but I don't care. First let me re-post the picture.
First let me give Vinny the advantage he is due. He has 17 years in this league.
The first thing I notice is the position of the head. This is one of my big gripes with Q. He looks down like he is looking at the RBs feet. He does this a lot, and it really irks me. A QB needs to be looking up at all times. Tacklers and weapons are not down low. They are at eye level. Notice Vinny's frame of reference. Eyes on where the RB is supposed to be, looking at chest level.
[View Full Quote]Right arm placement. When you take the snap from center you want to turn with both hands on the ball and the ball concealed by the torso. These guys are in textbook position. Bad form is when that right arm is away from the body. The reason that is bad form is because a defender still shielded from the ball can see that the ball is not in the throwing hand and he knows it is not a pass. Remember ball fakes are critical to selling a play. Both guys right arms are perfect. 2 years ago, Q's right arm would come out wide. If you remember Parcells wanted him to work on his ball fakes. They are better.
Left arm, again bad form by Q. Firt thing I want you to notice is the attitude of the ball. Vinny's is positioned so it hits the RB flat in the stomach. Q's is pointed at the stomach. Harder for the RB to get a firm hold. Greater chance of fumbling. I do not like this at all. The other noticable thing is his arm is bent whereas Vinny's is locked. Also bad form by Q. The quicker that ball is in the RBs stomach and hands the faster the play develops the quicker the defense has to react. One last thing, notice the height of the ball. This is due to the arm extension.
Okay now legs. Vinny is too stiff legged. Notice how Q is crouched. You want to be more flexed like that. Legs advantage goes to Q here.
Now the feet, seperate from the legs. Yet again, bad form on Q. Vinny is striding back to meet the RB, if this is a ball fake he will also be faster to keep the ball and set up for the pass. Q is selling the MLB that this is a run and all he has to do is react. Q is clearly waiting for the RB to come take the ball whereas Vinny is getting the ball back there to the runner. He's flat footed and his feet are too close together as well. If this is anything but a run, he is not ready for the play to happen.
The biggest problem with Vinny's mechanics in this picture is that he is stiff legged. This means he will move slower setting up. Everything else is very much textbook.
I said enough about Q to be hated for days. I'll refrain from summarizing. Suffice it to say that is painful for me to even look at. |
Nice analysis. I especially like the note about the ball attitude...being at the correct angle to hit the RB Flat, and ooposed to point forward with Q.
I've noticed in other pic that Q is more crouched at other times as well, in this case it's better, but I was thinkin that Vinny more upright stance was better (the other pic Im referring to is the one where the two are set up to pass and Vinny looks alot taller) |
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06-06-2004
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#50
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Federal Agent
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Location: | Fort Hood |
Posts: | 21,744 |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hostile
Okay you convinced me. I'll get ripped, but I don't care. First let me re-post the picture.
First let me give Vinny the advantage he is due. He has 17 years in this league.
The first thing I notice is the position of the head. This is one of my big gripes with Q. He looks down like he is looking at the RBs feet. He does this a lot, and it really irks me. A QB needs to be looking up at all times. Tacklers and weapons are not down low. They are at eye level. Notice Vinny's frame of reference. Eyes on where the RB is supposed to be, looking at chest level.
[View Full Quote]Right arm placement. When you take the snap from center you want to turn with both hands on the ball and the ball concealed by the torso. These guys are in textbook position. Bad form is when that right arm is away from the body. The reason that is bad form is because a defender still shielded from the ball can see that the ball is not in the throwing hand and he knows it is not a pass. Remember ball fakes are critical to selling a play. Both guys right arms are perfect. 2 years ago, Q's right arm would come out wide. If you remember Parcells wanted him to work on his ball fakes. They are better.
Left arm, again bad form by Q. Firt thing I want you to notice is the attitude of the ball. Vinny's is positioned so it hits the RB flat in the stomach. Q's is pointed at the stomach. Harder for the RB to get a firm hold. Greater chance of fumbling. I do not like this at all. The other noticable thing is his arm is bent whereas Vinny's is locked. Also bad form by Q. The quicker that ball is in the RBs stomach and hands the faster the play develops the quicker the defense has to react. One last thing, notice the height of the ball. This is due to the arm extension.
Okay now legs. Vinny is too stiff legged. Notice how Q is crouched. You want to be more flexed like that. Legs advantage goes to Q here.
Now the feet, seperate from the legs. Yet again, bad form on Q. Vinny is striding back to meet the RB, if this is a ball fake he will also be faster to keep the ball and set up for the pass. Q is selling the MLB that this is a run and all he has to do is react. Q is clearly waiting for the RB to come take the ball whereas Vinny is getting the ball back there to the runner. He's flat footed and his feet are too close together as well. If this is anything but a run, he is not ready for the play to happen.
The biggest problem with Vinny's mechanics in this picture is that he is stiff legged. This means he will move slower setting up. Everything else is very much textbook.
I said enough about Q to be hated for days. I'll refrain from summarizing. Suffice it to say that is painful for me to even look at. |
Absolutely hilarious. |
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06-07-2004
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#51
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Member
Joined: | Jun 2004 |
Location: | Where else? D-To |
Posts: | 73 |
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That is the 1st pic I have seen of Roy Williams. Either he had a bad practice or he is really focused[/quote]
Do you expect him to be dancing around with bells on? he just finished practice!
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06-07-2004
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#52
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Right Kind of Guy
Years Donated 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Posts: | 117,253 |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rack
Absolutely hilarious.
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1 down 2 to go. |
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06-07-2004
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#53
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Federal Agent
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Location: | Fort Hood |
Posts: | 21,744 |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hostile
1 down 2 to go.
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Whatever, McGyver.
I think your wrong about Testaverde's head. The angle of the dangle is clearly NOT adversely proportional to the heat of the meat. |
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06-07-2004
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#54
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Senior Member
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Posts: | 491 |
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I keep waiting for the freaking punch line...
You guys are acting ridiculous with this ( IMHO  )
I mean ok if its a film session that's one thing.
Even a three second clip that's one thing.
But,
By God on a snap shot that doesn't show you...
*the complete action
*other player's involved
*what type of play is called
*what type of drill is being asked for
*or the completion of any of the above.
It is a gawddang snapshot....hello???
I can just see Big Bill laughing his considerable as---err gluteous maximus off
I know we're starved for info, pics, and videos but come on...
it's a snapshot - I bet you could find a myriad of photos that capture something great at exactly the inoportune time that look stupid - |
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06-07-2004
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#55
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Right Kind of Guy
Years Donated 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Posts: | 117,253 |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rack
Whatever, McGyver.
I think your wrong about Testaverde's head. The angle of the dangle is clearly NOT adversely proportional to the heat of the meat.
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Think what you want. I don't care. It's called myopia. |
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06-07-2004
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#56
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Right Kind of Guy
Years Donated 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Posts: | 117,253 |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cowboyfreak
You guys are acting ridiculous with this ( IMHO )
I mean ok if its a film session that's one thing.
Even a three second clip that's one thing.
But,
By God on a snap shot that doesn't show you...
*the complete action
*other player's involved
*what type of play is called
*what type of drill is being asked for
*or the completion of any of the above.
It is a gawddang snapshot....hello???
I can just see Big Bill laughing his considerable as---err gluteous maximus off
I know we're starved for info, pics, and videos but come on...
it's a snapshot - I bet you could find a myriad of photos that capture something great at exactly the inoportune time that look stupid - |
Before video how do you suppose they did this?
Coaches can see this stuff in real time with no photos and tell you what looks wrong. Go to any coach you trust and ask him.
Ever seen the players looking at still photos on the sidelines from teh fax machines?
Naivete is cool though. Believe what you want.
BTW, there were no other players involved. This is a drill. If there were you'd see them enterring the picture.
Last edited by Hostile : 06-07-2004 at 08:16 AM.
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06-07-2004
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#57
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Senior Member
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Posts: | 872 |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hostile
Before video how do you suppose they did this?
Coaches can see this stuff in real time with no photos and tell you what looks wrong. Go to any coach you trust and ask him.
Ever seen the players looking at still photos on the sidelines from teh fax machines?
Naivete is cool though. Believe what you want.
BTW, there were no other players involved. This is a drill. If there were you'd see them enterring the picture.
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I wasn't aware that players were looking at the Quarterbacks feet in those polaroid snapshops they get on the sidelines, thanks for telling me. Otherwise I might have thought they were looking at the opponents formations and coverage schemes, silly me  |
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06-07-2004
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#58
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Right Kind of Guy
Years Donated 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Posts: | 117,253 |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Catch-22
I wasn't aware that players were looking at the Quarterbacks feet in those polaroid snapshops they get on the sidelines, thanks for telling me. Otherwise I might have thought they were looking at the opponents formations and coverage schemes, silly me |
Uh, before this picture their backs were turned, a coach simulated a snap count and they have turned around to hand the ball off. If the defense is back there that fast, we're already dead. |
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06-07-2004
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#59
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Senior Member
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Posts: | 872 |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hostile
Uh, before this picture their backs were turned, a coach simulated a snap count and they have turned around to hand the ball off. If the defense is back there that fast, we're already dead.
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I'm not sure exactly what the hell you are trying to say, but I think it's truly ridiculous to be putting so much analyzation in one freaking picture, from one freaking practice, in the freaking second day of minicamps.
Some of you guys are so hard up for news, you look to make anything minor a huge story. |
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06-07-2004
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#60
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Right Kind of Guy
Years Donated 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
Joined: | Apr 2004 |
Posts: | 117,253 |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Catch-22
I'm not sure exactly what the hell you are trying to say, but I think it's truly ridiculous to be putting so much analyzation in one freaking picture, from one freaking practice, in the freaking second day of minicamps.
Some of you guys are so hard up for news, you look to make anything minor a huge story.
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LMAO
Yeah, and no one can read all of that from a picture. Heard it before.
I was asked to break down the photo comparing them side by side.
3 for 3. Anyone else? |
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